WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1088 - Lily Tomlin

Episode Date: January 13, 2020

Lily Tomlin received a bit of advice early in her life that she really took to heart: If you can’t be direct, why be? Lily’s direct approach to performing, exemplified by her creation of original characters, led her to early success in New York cabarets, spots on The Merv Griffin Show, and her breakout showcase on Laugh-In. Lily and Marc talk about her personal and professional relationship with her longtime collaborator and now wife Jane Wagner, her roles in movies like Nashville and 9 to 5, and her friendship with Jane Fonda that continues today as they reach the sixth season of Grace and Frankie. This episode is sponsored by Avenue 5 on HBO and Capterra. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking

ears what the fucking knots what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it welcome new people. Welcome all. Big show today. Lily Tomlin's on the show. Lily Tomlin, who I've wanted to talk to for a long time, and I talked to her. It was a big day that I talked to her. It was a big day of talking to people, and we got off on some nice tangents, and we got into some good information, and we had a couple laughs.

It was an honor to talk to Lily lily tomlin i'll get to that in a minute let's talk about my tour you wanna thursday january 30th cleveland ohio at the agora theater i'm telling you these dates again especially on these larger guest shows because this might be it folks you never know with me if i'm gonna hang up my laughing shoes is that is that a thing do you have laughing shoes laughing gloves gonna hang up my laugh mitt going to hang up my laughing shoes. Is that a thing? Do you have laughing shoes? Laughing gloves? Going to hang up my laugh mitts. Might hang up my laughy mittens.

Friday, January 31st, Grand Rapids, Michigan at the Fountain Street Church. Saturday, February 1st, Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom. Friday, February 14th, Orlando, Florida at Hard Rock Live. Saturday, February 15th, Tampa, Florida at Hard Rock Live. Saturday, February 15th, Tampa, Florida at the Stras. Going to be at the Stras Center. Thursday, February 20th, Portland, Maine at the State Theater. Friday, February 21st, Providence, Rhode Island, Columbus Theater. Saturday, February 22nd, New Haven, Connecticut at College Street Music Hall.

And Sunday, February 23rd, Huntington, New York at the Paramount. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for links to all the venues. I'm definitely going to need my laugh mittens for these shows, some of them. Del Rey is going to be opening for me at all of them. Del Rey has covered more territory than I have. I think Del Rey has been to some of these markets already, so you get to to see delray twice if you're a delray fan and a mark maron fan or perhaps you're just coming to see delray i don't care what you do i'll have my laugh mittens on i'll be ready to go my funny long johns my hilarious red union suit with the button down

butt thing so you can poop out of it. Little trap door on the back. Maybe I got one of those. I used to have one of those. You know, when you look back at the clothing you've had, where are those pants? Am I right? Am I? Where's my Union suit?

What happened to that red Union suit I had? I used to wear it in Boston. I used to wear it in Maine. I used to wear it back in the day. Had beautiful sweaters. Big cardigan sweaters. Are they cardigans? Pullovers.

I had, like, what happened to those wool pants? I had some amazing sort of, I think they were Danish military-issue wool pants that I wore with suspenders. Thick wool. I had big old boots back in the Boston days. Where's my overcoat? Who's wearing my clothes from back then? Who's got my stuff? I had a couple pairs of wool pants. I was a suspender guy for a minute, not in a real way, in sort of a clown way. But anyways, enough about that. I'm going to be

in Georgia this week. I think this is the last big chunk of stuff I'm doing for the Aretha Franklin film, Respect. So I'll be down there. Maybe I'll do some sets down there, some surprisers. I'll let you know if you care. I will tell you on Instagram, I believe, is how I'll do it. And maybe Twitter. Okay? So I got a beautiful painting from a fan, a woman or a woman who listens to the show, a painter named Paula Nelson of La Fonda's head.

And it's so beautiful. It's such a nice piece of tribute. It made me very excited. So I have a painting of my cat La Fonda that passed away recently. Most of you know. And I thank Paula for that a lot. Someone told me she might be the painter of the things that for Trader Joe's. I don't know what that means.

But it's a lovely painting. And she does nice work. I think I have her Instagram. I think it is at woe, W-H-O-A, lower dash, Nielsen. Is that what you call that? A lower dash, lower slash, or lower, not a slash. I don't fucking know. You know, the underline thing. So, yeah, that was very nice.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Paula. I appreciate that. So last night I went to a thing. I was invited to a thing, and Lynn and I went to a thing. She's a film director. It was a film thing, and I think I primarily invited to a thing, and Lynn and I went to a thing. She's a film director. It was a film thing.

And I think I primarily went to it because I thought she would enjoy it. And I believe we did. And I didn't know about the movie. Here's what I'm getting at. This guy I know, he's a fan of mine, and he's also an artist in his own right in a lot of ways. Peter Kahnheim. He's in the band Negative Land, but he's also a film archivist and he invites me to a lot of things and he sends me records and stuff and i've not you know i've

not really gone like sometimes i'm in the bay area he'll be like you want to go over to my basement and see a pristine print of clute and i'll be like i don't know peter i don't know i don't think i do but it's not it's a time thing. But anyways, he had a big part in the restoration of this film, which I knew nothing about. It was called Spring Night, Summer Night. The director is J.L. Anderson. It's in this program over there at UCLA. It's the Film and Television Archive. Okay. They got a program going over there it's american neo-realism now look i'm i'm no dummy i'm i'm half an intellectual i studied film in college but it'd been a long time since i went to an event or to see a film that was specifically in in the context of not just archiving but you know a series of a certain type of film.

And also like it was a film nerd event in a lot of ways. But it's also a film art thing. It's a it's it's sort of a found piece of film in a way, a found feature film that has been salvaged from obscurity. And it's been a long time since I've done that. You know, when you're in college, you do that shit. You got to we got to see this movie. Then we're going to get a lecture on the movie and you appreciate it.

Now, look, I've got the tools, you know? I mean, the film was sort of, the story was kind of stunning and dark. It takes place in rural Ohio, Southeastern Ohio. It's almost a Faulknerian tale of a family. But it's like later, I mean, I think it's from 1967, but it was beautiful. And there was a life to it, a vitality to it. And this new print that Peter worked on, it's a digital print. And it's the first time I think the film has been shown in its entirety. Maybe, I don't know if it's ever, but it's gone through quite a history. Apparently,

it was released with some other footage added to make it a little more sorted for the drive-in crowd. And this is the way that the director wanted it. But I don't do that kind of stuff. And the guy who presented it, the people at the UCLA Film Archive, one guy introduced the other guy who had a long beard. This is a 14-year project bringing this thing to the theater. Everyone's very excited who's there. It was a pretty packed house and you know it was sort of stunning and i'd forgotten what it's like to just take that stuff in but like to go and see an event and hear people speak on the the sort of uh revelation of the movie and the construction of the movie and the archiving and and bringing it back to life of the movie was sort of fascinating the guy one of the guys had a remarkable beard, just a great beard. And this

is their life, man. You know, this is their life is like archiving movies, you know, pulling them out of obscurity or, or, or to, you know, decomposing and, you know, so they don't, you know, just disappear forever. And I don't know. I, I think there was a time where I, and I've talked about this before when it comes to art and context you know we're talking about you know the the the program is American neorealism no matter what I know about movies or what I can talk about and how I can talk about it I'm no fucking deep film nerd I'm no film academic I'm no film fucking intellectual I know what I know and I know enough to watch it properly but there's always been this feeling that when anything is is sort of revisited by academia or or written about in a certain context

or put under the umbrella of American neorealism at a certain point in history I mean I know Italian neorealism I've seen Rome open city I know I know things but like I automatically think that no matter whatever experience I have watching the film, that it's like I'm missing something. What am I missing? And I think the breakthrough I had maybe last night or recently is that I didn't miss anything. That, you know, you take it in. It's not there to solve all your problems. You know, it could blow you away.

It could change the configuration of your synapses. But it could also just be like, I get it. And, you know, it was really amazing for these reasons. And I can appreciate that. And I understand what the context is and why it's there. And it definitely was, you know, something that changed the way I look at something. I guess I've given myself a break and I think I'm going to see more stuff now. And this sort of ties in with Lily Tomlinlin because i watched all of nashville before i talked to her and i hadn't seen that film in a while and i'd forgotten how it ended and i'd seen

it two or three times and that's a film from 19 probably 75 and um lily tomlin is genius in it she's like it's a straight up acting gig and it's fucking unbelievable. And the whole movie is sort of unbelievable. The cast is insane. Ned Beatty, Ronnie Blakely, Keith Carradine, Geraldine Chaplin, Henry Gibson, Michael Murphy, Lily Tomlin. Jeff Goldblum has this weird part in it that's pretty great. I believe Lily Tomlin was nominated for an Oscar for her work in the film. And it's definitely a sort of a masterpiece of a sort, as are many of Altman's films.

One of my favorite movies is McCabe and Mrs. Miller. And it's a whole different pace, a whole different groove. It has its own context. Altman is his own world. They're definitely sort of art movies, but sort of lyrical and well-populated and well-financed movies, unlike the kind of independent nature of the film I saw last night made in 1967

on a fairly shoestring budget in black and white. That's the other thing you learn, is that relatively independent cinema has been around a long time, and there's a lot of gems out there but nashville it was great to watch it it's a it's a weird dark movie as are many of the altman films and lily tom was also amazing in shortcuts she was coupled with tom waits and it was one of the beautiful relationships in that movie anyways from laughing from her one person shows nine to

five the movies like i'm i'm giving her a big buildup as if she's going to walk in here. It was an honor to talk to this woman, and I've been waiting to do it for a long time. So this is me talking to Lily Tomlin, who is on Grace and Frankie, which premieres on Netflix this Wednesday, January 15th. It is the new season. And I talked to her co-star Jane Fonda. Maybe I'll get the other ones. Anyways, me and Lily, right now. Thank you. how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. This episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I'm very excited you're here.

Are we taking vitamins? Yeah. What do you got? A load of stuff. Yeah? They're from my alternative doctor. The alternative doctor. Do they have a degree?

Absolutely. He's an MD. He's a degree? Absolutely. He's an MD. He's a biochemist. Really? And then he has an MD. And it's like nutrition-based kind of deal? Yeah, with your blood and all that. Right.

I don't feel a bit different. Nothing, right? And I must take about 50 a day. And nothing? You don't feel any different no why jesus you're gonna maybe we should just you want to go a lot about 20 minutes with just take the pills that's a lot do you know what's in them well pretty i know what the formula is yeah but i don't know oh okay i couldn't make it myself no what what uh. What made you go get all the supplements? Because I just stopped taking supplements.

Oh, did you? That's probably smart. But, you know, I'm trying to squeeze one last year out of Grace and Frankie. Uh-huh. And you were, what, getting tired? No, no. I told you I don't feel any differently. I know, but so, like, why go?

Why go to the guy? Well, it becomes habitual. Oh, right. And he's a good guy. I like him. He's very smart. So you've been going there a long time. But I have a regular doctor too.

Oh, that's good. You don't just go to the hippie doctor. Well, he's not a hippie doctor, but he could be construed as that. I know. I know. I'm being condescending. That's all right. I think it's good. You construed as that. I know. I know. I'm being condescending. That's all right. I think it's good.

You're misguided. I know I'm misguided. I stopped taking turmeric because I was told it does nothing by several nutritionists. I'm sure you can't even get it to absorb into your body. That's right. That's what the problem is. But people just do it. I don't take turmeric.

It's the one thing apparently. Although I've got quite a big stash of it when I ordered a big supply. You did buy it once? Oh, yes, of course. In a liquid form. Oh, that must be better. Yeah, probably. But you don't take it anymore?

No, I've got too much to take. Okay, all right. So I was watching. I never know. I don't know what to, sometimes I don't know where to start. So I actually watched most of Nashville last night. You did? Carson from the 70s, I think. An old Johnny Carson appearance. Of me being on the show? Yeah. And, like, both of those things made me realize just how time worked differently.

That we all had much more time. And things just kind of spread out and had a natural pace to them. And it was just human. Like, you know, you were on Carson for, I mean, the segment was like a half hour. No. No, but you know. I mean, people sat there. What did I do? Did I say anything?

You were talking. Yes. It was an appearance where you were talking about your childhood and starting. It was a story about you're talking about growing up in the basement apartment and the neighbor who lived upstairs who used to come down for dinner. Oh, yes. You remember? Mrs. Spear. Yeah, Mrs. Spear. lived upstairs who used to come down for dinner oh yes you remember mrs spear yeah mrs spear because he was asking you about uh you know how you started to be a performer and he assumed it was when you got a first laugh but it was actually more connected to uh you know uh your father yeah

and that because you told mrs spear what your father was thinking do you remember that story oh yes i do very well i remember standing at the foot of the stairs and giving Mrs. Spear a piece of my father's mind. Right. That was the whole issue, that she was annoying your dad. And of course, my dad, my mother would just be horrified. And she immediately called Mrs. Spear in to supper the next night and every night after that and treated her like the finest guest in the world. And my father was tickled to death when I did it. So I got that sense of being a little outrageous and audacious as being funny, the winning side of something. Right.

It made an impact with the old man anyway. Right. With the old man, it sure did. So this was in Detroit? Yeah. Right, with the old man. It sure did. So this was in Detroit? Yeah. You were born there? Yes.

Wow. But my parents are from Kentucky, from their southern. Oh, and they evacuated? They went north to work. Yeah? Well, it got bad down there in the south? They just were? Well, my dad was the kind of guy, he just wasn't going to be a farmer.

Right. So he went to Detroit to the big city. To play the horses. south they just were well my dad was the kind of guy he just wasn't going to be a farmer right so he went to detroit for uh to the big city to play the horses and oh he's a gambling man yeah but he worked very religiously he was a hard worker what did you do him what he was a job setter at a factory a job setter yeah i don't know what that means that means somebody who can uh he can't really read plans but he can put a machine together to produce whatever the part is that they need. Oh, okay. So it's kind of an intuitive gift that he had. Yeah, could he break down an engine and that kind of business?

I don't know. Oh. And what did your mom do? She was a nurse's aide. Oh, working with sick people. With the babies. She worked always with the babies. Oh, yeah? She loved that. And do you have brothers and sisters? My brother. Is he still around? Yeah,

he lives in Nashville. He's a painter. Really? He's a painter and he builds furniture and he's just artistic. Abstract, realistic? Sort of whimsical. Oh, yeah? And he sells his paintings? Yes. He said to me the other day, in four years, I'll be 80. Yeah. I can't believe it either. I think he's maybe 16. Oh, really?

He's just got the personality of that? Oh, yeah. I mean, and I just can't believe it, my precious brother. He's going to be 80? Yeah, and I'm already 80. I said, well, I'm already 80, so. Do you feel different? No, I feel nothing different.

Yeah, my mother's the same way. She's like, I don't understand. I don't feel any different inside. I guess it doesn't, yeah. I thought maybe it would have something to do with kids or whatever, but no, I guess you don't really change inside, huh? I guess not. How many kids did she have just me and my

brother and uh i don't i don't think she really locked into that for a long time but i think she notices now oh my mother was a real homemaker she loved to she when she was lying in bed when she had osteoporosis very badly at the end of her life yeah she said oh i just i'm lying here just thinking about, because her father had been a prosperous farmer in Kentucky. And he had wanted his last two girls to go to college, and my mother was one of them. And she said, I'd give anything to be a home ec teacher.

That's what she wanted? Those were her dying wishes? Yeah, so dear. Nothing pleased my mother more than a new canister set. Did she cook and stuff? Oh, yeah. Cakes? Yeah, everything. She had a very special gumdrop cake. Oh, really? Was it gumdrops all around the top? Gumdrops inside and on top. Oh, was it good? Yeah, it was good. So were you always in the basement apartment growing up? No, we moved up to the second floor when I was about 10 or 12.

Same building? Yes. Oh, that's nice. You literally moved up in the world. We did. We did, indeed. And when you were growing up, were you into watching theater or comics or anything like that well i didn't know i didn't have the experience of theater yeah my family i went to the movies a lot yeah um but i i worked i

i took ballet and tap at the department of parks and recreation across the street yeah from our apartment house yeah because that we we lived in a sort of wild neighborhood. Oh, yeah. Nothing terribly bad and certainly nothing compared to today. Right. Just a lot going on in the streets and whatnot. Yeah, a lot going on and it was rough. Yeah.

You know, you could, but you don't realize how rough it is until you. When you're a kid. Yeah. Yeah. And so I took Ballot and Tap over there because they had a lot of programs to keep kids off the streets. Right, yeah. And I was over there for about 10 years from 5 to 15. Doing dancing?

Dancing and doing comedy. I mean, I would make up characters to do. We'd have a variety show every Friday. Oh, every Friday? Yeah, in the summer. Yeah. Not in the winter. Yeah, right. So you every Friday? Yeah, in the summer. Yeah. Not in the winter. Yeah, right, yeah.

So you didn't have to trek through the snow. But so you were doing characters at age 10, 12, 13? Yeah, easily. You brought up on Carson in whenever that was, in the 70s, about a woman who lived in the building that was older than you, but you were friends with her. Well, there were a couple of those but because i was the kind of kid who just had an an adult way about me right and so i betty betty peterka and and uh jimmy jimmy um jimmy lafont yeah they were like about 25 and i

was 10 yeah but and they were like the glamour, exciting girls. Like Betty's boyfriend slept over. Yeah. And that was really hot stuff. And Jimmy was married. Yeah. And she and her husband, every time they would have sex, they'd put a bean in the jar. And then it took them three years to get the beans out.

In one year, they put so many beans in the jar. And then after that first year, they took three years to get the beans out. Oh, my God. But they would tell me stuff like that. When you were 10. Yeah, and that was interesting to me. You need those people to sort of open your brain up. Yeah.

To the bigger world out there. And Jimmy was very well-spoken. Yeah. And Betty was very flamboyant and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah. She had a real big figure, and she was hot stuff. And this was like the 50s? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Well, the very beginning of the 50s, because I was born in 39. Right. So I was 10 by the time I was in 1940. No, I mean 1950. Now, when you think about it, like, you know, seeing how everything's changed over, you know, like the arc of, like, what happened culturally, it, seeing how everything's changed over the arc of what happened culturally, it's got to be mind-blowing. Because I was trying to think when I talk to

people- I try to figure it out. I can't figure it out. In terms of what? Which part? Everything. How does it make sense? How does it not? Look at today with this whole thing. It's horrendous. And around. You think, and then you've got someone like Trump in the White House. You just can't put it all together. It's, and even with so much more information, it even makes it more confusing. But I mean, you live through Nixon, you live through, like, you know,

I would imagine that in terms of, you know, just fear in the streets, the 60s was horrendous. Maybe we know so much more now. Maybe that's it. Maybe we're acculturated so that, you know, true. I mean, Nixon, the bombing in Cambodia and everything else that went on. And you think Trump is 10 times worse than Nixon. But in a way, it's sort of like it's only because we kind of know more yeah

how's it happening again and you know and and and now we're so much more distracted but I just I it's dealing with fear is the hardest thing for me the fear part I more for it more for it's more anxiousness for me I guess that's what it is yeah because you do feel ultimately powerless when things when things I mean usually things are going on that we don't know about. But when you really start to think about it, you're like, I can't do anything. What can I do? And what can you do? And especially with the climate.

Oh, my gosh. There's no recourse. Nothing. Nothing. You know, it doesn't matter. Australia is- On fire. Yeah.

And I have friends in Australia and they said it's just grim. Really? Yeah. Like in Sydneyralia and they said it's just grim really yeah like in like in sydney or where are you well no they're they're in um you know canberra right now but they used to live in bermagui which is just idyllic and it's gone i went up it's it's all evacuated it very well could burn i have no sense of what's happening there the scale of it but seems pretty fucking awful yeah it's like 10 times worse than what we've seen in California fires. Yeah. 10 times bigger.

Yeah, yeah. And it's for it to suddenly strike Australia. I saw on the beach, I always thought Australia was far away and the last to go. Okay, right, right, yeah. Yeah, nothing's going to happen in Australia. Yeah. Well, it's terrible. Yeah, nothing's going to happen in Australia.

Yeah. Well, it's terrible. But I mean, like, I guess your parents probably lived through the Depression and had that mentality. And like, I guess things change. But the climate does seem like the last frontier. Yeah, it does. It is. As far as I can figure it out. But going back, before we fall into a hole of despair.

Yeah, the despair is part of the anxious. It is. It is. into a fall into a hole of despair yeah the despair is part of the anxious it is it is except i but in a certain kind of way i i um i take it in in the morning i get up and i'm seeing what's happening and then we kind of go about our day i mean you're doing your show what else can you do i came here yeah um i said that on stage last night when I, it was like, this could be the eve of World War III and, you know, there's all this stuff going on, but we have to get up and live our lives. Yeah.

Which is just that sort of gnawing anxiousness when everybody has it. It will allay that fear, that anxiousness for a while. I mean, you get absorbed in what you're doing. Maybe you love what you're doing and. Sure. But when you were growing up, when did you start to – because I do stand-up. Did you do stand-up first? No, and I'm not really a classic stand-up. I've always done characters.

Right. And I talk in between or something, and there's a certain amount of stand-up, but not like – Joke, joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hard-hitting stand-up. But you were always aware of that? That you categorize yourself as not a traditional stand-up? Yeah. Yeah, because why?

Because I did characters. Right. But you shared the stage with stand-ups at different times, right? I mean, you go on at clubs, right? No, I didn't go on at too many clubs. Never? Oh, yeah. No, I did, but I didn't really. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I needed time to establish my character. Or if I was going to do a monologue, I'd have to have five or six or eight or ten minutes to do the monologue. Not every audience is going to sit around for that. That's true. They want boom, boom, boom. Well, I don't know.

Again, like, you know, watching Carson and also watching Nashville and sort of the pace of things then was a little different. It seems like people were a little more patient. Am I projecting? Well, they might be patient. I don't know. It depends on who the person is. I mean, if they know you, they might be a little more patient. Right.

But if you're just starting out and they don't know you, they might be a little more patient. Right. But if you're just starting out and they don't know you, they're not going to be totally, unless you're totally mesmerizing. Sure. Well, you're pretty mesmerizing. You're doing something so, why I've never seen the likes of this.

Weren't you that? I was kind of that in a way, but I wasn't the first to do characters. Sure. I was greatly influenced by Ruth Draper. Yeah, I don't know who that is. Who died in 56 and she was in her 70s

and I came to know, I discovered her when I was about 18 in Detroit on the written word, you know, whatever that album is called.

Uh-huh. Ruth Draper is her name? Yeah. And she, I don't know her. Yeah, that's all right. I can understand that. That's crazy.

I feel like, I feel stupid. No, she, most people wouldn't know her. Yeah, that's all right. I can understand that. That's crazy. I feel stupid. Most people wouldn't know her. She had a record, though? She had an album? She was recorded, yes, because the guy who recorded her, Charles Bowden, he became a good friend of mine because when he first saw my first Broadway show, he wrote me a letter and he said, you make me think of Ruth Draper. And of course, that was the most heady thing he could have said to me, which was totally

far-fetched. But- Who was she? How did you come to know her? Well, she was from Boston. She was from a fairly well-to-do family. Her father, her brother was Paul Draper, the dancer who was blacklisted. And she was a comedic performer?

Well, not totally comedic, very funny yeah she would do characters yeah characters and she would do broadway shows oh she would appear on broadway every few years and she toured the world and she'd get up in a place in scotland and stand on the table and do her monologues wow and this was your first big influence, this woman. Yeah. And you aspired to it. I had other influences. Yeah. You know, I was very eclectic. Like who else? When you were, before you started. Yeah. When I was a kid and we first got it, we didn't get a TV till I was 10. And then my father got an old months TV and they never sent him the payment book. And he just gloated on that for years oh your free tv yeah uh but i saw other

neighbors tvs occasionally you know and stuff but i listened to the radio a lot i loved beulah yeah the uh the maid yeah and she was always muttering some mutiny under her breath you know she'd be saying like uh maybe her her white employers would call her upstairs, downstairs, upstairs, downstairs. And she'd be trudging up the stairs and out of breath and tired. And then she'd say, Bula, I need you up here at once. Okay, I'll be right along. No, no, Bula, I need you downstairs at once. I need to see you immediately.

I like to take their supper and give it to the dog. What's that you said, Bula? I said the fire's getting low. I better fetch a log. Subversive. And I would just crack up at that. I thought that was totally divine. Yeah. Okay. So that was on the radio. So yeah, you liked people that did funny characters and had a little edge to them. Yeah, and I had, but I empathized with them. You know, I just, I totally got them. Yeah. And when did you first start putting your stuff to paper? Well, I did, the first character I did

was in a show in college. I mean, that I did like for a real audience. Right. And it was a scholarship show to raise scholarship money and long to do about getting there and everything. What, to college? Right. And it was a scholarship show to raise scholarship money. And long to do about getting there and everything. What, to college or to?

That's about true. Getting in this show. Yeah. And I had done a show on the big stage where I played a walk-on in The Madwoman of Shio. At the school. Yeah, for the university. And I had to lead an improvisation of the capitalist women down the staircase being cast into the Madwoman's cellar. And I would just carry on every night, you know.

And all the kids who were drama majors, they would just all run out to the stage to see what I was going to do. You're just improvising? Yeah. And I thought, geez, this is so much fun. And I was scoring who lived in Detroit. I've tried to reach her a hundred times because she sort of looked like Barbara Streisand at the time. And she would look at me so intently and she'd say, do you realize what kind of concentration you have? She was a teacher? No, she was a student, but she was a drama major. Okay. I had no idea.

She was impressed with you. Very impressed with my concentration, at least. Yeah. So that's how you yeah so i did that but then i got into this scholarship show where it was uh funny where they were doing funny stuff sketches and and so i had like i i bombed out on everything because it was just terrible material student or what no as a as a player in a player. They gave me all the female parts, and surreptitiously they took them away one by one. Because I couldn't sell it.

Oh. I mean, who's going to say, like, play Miss Kitty and say, you know, they pour Matt, whatever his name is, a cup of coffee in it, and real beans fall out. Right. Okay. And they say, goods to the last bean. You're not going to do it. It just didn't make sense to me. Couldn't sell it.

I couldn't sell it. And so gradually I had no, I had only two parts left and I only had one part left. Were you studying drama? No, I was studying, I was in pre-med. Oh God. That was another fantasy. Yeah. How'd that go? Well, I didn't't finish so it didn't go anyway yeah didn't there was no no no decision on me you didn't finish college no i didn't finish

i got in and i got into this show yeah and i was had been humiliated humiliated humiliated and i had one last thing to do yeah and it was a takeoff in the Academy Awards, and I pretended I was ad-libbing, like trying to read cue cards, and I would just say things like, academia, and here at the academia, and that was getting big laughs, and so then I was kind of buoyed and renewed, and. And so then the – you have to insert another story here to explain how low I had gone. Okay. There was a girl in the show. Which one?

Which show? In this – The review? The review. Yeah. And she was like 5'10", and she had blonde hair, and she hung over one eye. Yeah. And she wore French cut electric blue tights,

you know, with your butt cheeks are showing through the tights, but the leotard is cut way up. It's like wearing a, you know, what's those underpants called? Thongs. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like that. You have high heels on a lot of jewelry. Right.

She was something. Yes. And she was leaning against the piano with her long legs stretched out she became a good friend of mine later i'm sure i'm not using her name right uh and so she and i was mumbling my my academy award speech over on the side like real pitiful yeah and she swung around like that and her hair just ripple ripple ripple yeah and a clear i'll add and she's she said, what did you say? She hadn't said a word to me in weeks.

Right. And I said, I was just staggered to my depths. And she said, well, if you can't be direct, why be? And that was the last thing that I needed. And I went out, that's when I went out there

and ad-libbed that piece. So these are just I like these passing bits of but wait but I the character I did I did the old tasteful lady that I did on laughing eventually yeah and I'd never really done her as a character it's just that I my mother's maiden name was Ford yeah and so we used to read all about the Fords in the society page and Charlotte Ford was my age and she was making her debut party at that time and was reputed to cost $500,000 or something. And I had borrowed a car and taken my mother on a tour around the Grosse Pointe estate

so she could see the twinkle lights and the canopies. Yeah. And the car was tied on the driver's side with a rope. The door was tied shut. This is a family car? No, I borrowed it from a friend. And so all this stuff intertwines because my life has been preordained. Right.

Okay. And so years later when Kathy King, who was a cheerleader, I'd gotten her on the cheer team at Cass Tech, which was my high school. And so she was married to Henry Ford. She was his third wife. Really? Yeah. And so she had all the old cheerleaders over at their big house, you know.

And she called my mom on the phone and she said, Mrs. Tomlin, you can come in the front door now. So that was a lovely moment. Yeah. Okaylin, you can come in the front door now. So that was divine. It was a lovely moment. Okay. So that's still not the story. The story is I did a Grosse Pointe matron. Yeah. Okay. And as the character. As the character. And I talked about my charitable activities and my social work, my social activities and all that stuff. And then I'd get up and I bid the audience a very tasteful. And we knew that Grosse Pointe had been designated a segregated, unlawfully a segregated community. So that's what it played on.

Yeah, yeah. And so I could just ad lib around that, you know, and do the character. And I had a young guy that I was friendly with, he interviewed me, like he had a show called Distinguished Guest. Uh-huh. And then when I got up, I have my dress.

I didn't flash or anything. My dress was of a decorous length. But I, you know, like a woman, 50 years, middle age, she might get up and push herself up off her thighs, you know, put her palms down near her knees and push herself up. Right. In a very, this was high hilarity in 1962. Yeah. But you killed. You did great.

I killed him. Yeah. Because it was the only thing that was relevant that was in the show. Right. And it was actually. So then I went on all the TV shows and did it. Oh, that character. Yeah.

She became the tasteful lady. Yeah. Yeah. When did this take place before you did the, where was this show? The one you just told me about. 62. It was at Wayne State University. Oh, okay.

Okay. And then after that, you quit school. Yeah. I went, as soon as we finished midterms, I went to New York. Yeah. I thought, well, geez, I'm going to become an actress or something. Yeah. Well, it's so funny to me that these two passing people

that you knew, the one that looked like Barbara Streisand who said, what did she say about your focus? Do you know what kind of concentration you have?

There's that one and then the one who said if you can't be direct. Like YB? Yeah. Those were pretty important. They were very important. It's weird how just

what certain people... And then she went to New York and we were friends for many years. She was an actress? Yeah, that was her desire. And it didn't come to pass? Not so much.

So when you got to New York, what did you do? Well, I liked a kind of a bohemian life. I didn't mind it at all. Those girls were kind of disappointed if they were like living on the Lower East Side or something. Is that where you started? I liked the color of it. Did you start in the Lower East Side? Yeah.

Well, I started on 2nd Avenue over the B&H Dairy. Yeah. Do you know that? The 2nd Avenue and like what? 7th Street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I went in there because I- B&H Dairy restaurant.

What? Yeah, B&H Dairy. I think it's still there. It's still yeah, yeah. And I went in there. B&H Dairy Restaurant. Yeah, B&H Dairy. I think it's still there. It is. And so I had a girlfriend. She wasn't really a girlfriend. She was kind of an acquaintance, but I knew she lived in New York now. So I had called her when I went, and I had total Holly-go-lightly damage.

Yeah. I used to wear my hair, you know, I didn't have big, abundant hair. Right. But what I had, I would pull up and I'd put it in a, and then I would spread lightly damage. Yeah. I used to wear my hair, you know, I didn't have big abundant hair. Right. But what I had, I would pull up and I'd put it in a, and then I would spread it out. Yeah. Like a ponytail on top of my head. Yeah. Then I'd spread the ponytail out and pin it down with hairpins. Right.

So I had a nice Nefertiti profile. It sounds like it took some time to put that together. Well, I've seen photographs and you wouldn't have guessed I spent a lot of time. Anyway, so I got a white, a cream-colored trench coat at the thrift shop. Yeah. And a couple of items like that for my, and I got a $19 one-way trip on Continental Airlines. You flew. Yeah.

19 bucks. Detroit to New York. Detroit to New York. Yeah. $19, right. He flew. Yeah. 19 bucks. Detroit to New York. Detroit to New York. Yeah. $19, right. On a prop plane. Probably. Non-scheduled Continental prop.

Yeah. That's exciting. And later I became friends with Audrey Meadows, who was married to Bob Six, who was president of Continental. It just. Oh, Audrey Meadows from The Honeymooners. Yeah. Yeah.

She was funny. Oh, she was. She was on one The Honeymooners. Yeah. Yeah. She was funny. Oh, she was. She was on one of my specials. Yeah. But how did you get started doing what you wanted to do? Well, first, I got there. I had $15 left in my pocket. I borrowed $5 from nine friends, $45.

I bought the trench coat and extra hairpins. Get the hair up there. And so I had $15 left. And I was going to get a job as a waitress at the Figaro. Okay. Which was like about as cool as you could possibly be. A coffee shop, right? Yeah, over in the village, in the west village.

Still there. Yes. So I went. And, of course, the guy had a list of girls this long who wanted to be waitresses at the Figaro. And all I had was a burlap skirt. I had one little checkered suit with a bolero jacket kind of, you know, and I had one pair of high heels. Because when the Figaro thing fell through, and I knew that that night, I spent the $15 on dinner. I went back home. I bought a New York Times on Saturday night late.

Yeah. And I looked in the newspaper and wrote down all the typist jobs, assistant bookkeeping jobs. Let me think. Typist jobs were terrible, like $45 a week. Yeah. But assistant bookkeepers were like $85 a night.

Could you type? Oh, yeah, I could type. I took typing. Like any good girl, I took typing at my age. But I had also worked as an assistant bookkeeper in Detroit. Right. And I could post a ledger. Right.

So that's a needed skill. And that's the gig you got? So I stopped at all the places, and they they were horrible like button factories and all that stuff finally i get to fifth up up uh up in the 50s mid on fifth avenue and i go to bmi management oh the management company yes i had no idea when i took the phone number out of the paper and it says captain kangaroo dick Dick Clark Productions and all like that. So I, and I got that job just like that. So you're in.

I'm in. I'm in show business. You're in show business. I didn't even know, but I was really kind of the office flunky. Yeah. There were three other women in the office. Gloria was the bookkeeper and I had to assist her. And if you're assisting someone, you don't have to know too much. And what year is this?

62. Wow. It's getting to be like almost summer yeah yeah so but you're but how long did it take you to realize that you're in this like center of show business i saw it as soon as i saw the door i knew i knew did you see captain kangaroo around didn't say captain k said charles keishon i didn't realize that was captain kangaroo but but I could understand Dick Clark. Yeah, yeah. But they also handled all the newscasters. Yeah. I mean, 90% of the top newscasters.

And I used to write all the alimony checks. Oh, really? Yeah, and you had to get them out on Friday night. Wow. Anyway, sometimes I fail to do it. I forget. It causes trouble. I'd be so glad to get rid of the place.

Because Rita and Florence, who were their secretaries, they were so great. And I've seen Florence since. And she's come to my show a couple times. Wow. But I would pour a cooler. And someone would dump soup in the receptacle there. And I didn't do it. I wouldn't dare do it. So there's no there. And I didn't do it.

I wouldn't dare do it. So there's no drain. And here Rita, she'd say, come here. I couldn't understand them. They were from the Bronx. Yeah. I said, what? She said, look at this.

Who did this? You must have done this. No, I didn't do that, Rita. Clean it up. Then I'd have to go and get things for them, for their different things like creams, change of brassiere, do this on my lunch hour. And there was nothing worse than walking around in New York City in the summer of 62.

Yeah, too hot. No, hot, forget that. But the construction workers, it's like they're wagging their tongues at you. Oh, and just on and on. It was just unbearable. Forget that. But the construction workers, it's like they're wagging their tongues at you. Oh. And just on and on. It was just unbearable. When did somebody notice you performing?

When did you start to do the performing? Well. In New York. My friend Louis. Yeah. Louis St. Louis, who had several credits. He was a musical director, and he he wrote songs and he performed himself. But he and his partner were going to perform at the Bitter End. Right. And he got me on the bill.

Yeah. As you know, to do. So I kind of threw stuff together that I had. This was the first show at the Bitter End. Yeah. Bits and pieces, characters. Bits and pieces. How many of those characters stayed with you for a lifetime? Well, one of them for sure, the world's oldest living beauty expert. She really kills me. Where did you do her? Did you do her on? I've just done her in my act.

I've never done her on television. Oh, really? Well, I have done her on television. Yeah. As a guest on something, I might have done it. Right, right. Oh, I went to mime school first. You did? Yeah, because being an actress was like, you know, in downtown it was considered too narcissistic.

Uh-huh. And men were the only creators anyway. You know, the women rolled the joints, had babies. Yeah. I didn't see that cut out for me. Yeah, yeah. But I was sort of afraid to stand up and say I'm an actor. Yeah.

So I was going to study mime. Uh-huh. That's more acceptable. Where'd you study mime? With William Curtis, the American Mime Theater. I lasted three weeks. It was just too arduous for so little reward. You just couldn't get anything out of them, you know,

because then the other kids were so gifted. Yeah, with mime. Yeah, they could tumble across the room and do the most incredible falls and spills and come up and... Do it, yeah. Not your bag. No, although I'm good physically. I mean, I used to be good. Did it help you, you think? What? The three weeks of mime school, did it help you at all? Well, I was kind of a natural mime anyway, you know. Sure. You know how to do that. I had gotten in a mime show. No, see, I don't remember what year that was. Maybe that was 65.

Yeah. You were in a mime show? Yeah. Yeah. At the Astor Place Playhouse. When did the break happen? Well, the real break didn't happen until I went on the Merv Griffin show. From New York?

Yes. I was at the upstairs and the downstairs in 66. Where's that at? That was on 50, like 55th and on the side street off of Fifth Avenue. It was a club? Yeah. Yeah. They had a review upstairs in the big room.

They had a little cabaret review. And then Mabel Mercer was in the downstairs room. And I was just mad for Mabel Mercer. Lewis and I had, we used to walk up to the Bonsoir. We'd have just a quarter for the coat check because you could stand six deep at the bar and never even have to buy a drink because we adored Mabel. Okay. So Mabel was falling out of favor, not doing as big a business. Joan had become very popular. Joan Raver? Joan Carson.

Yeah. And she took over that room in the downstairs. Yeah. And Mabel was just there on Mondays, Tuesdays, or Wednesdays or something. Uh-huh. And so I said to Irv Haber, I was in the review upstairs, and I'd gotten a review from Vince Canby. Yeah.

In the New York Times. He was a nightclub critic then. Before film? Yeah. And I did the makeup lady. That was my main monologue in that show. The character I did, and it stood out because it was different than the review. The beauty tip person?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he said it's as if Beatrice Lilly and Dracula's daughter have come into some kind of lunar conjunction. And that put you on the map. That was eye-catching. Yeah, that's for sure. So it didn't put me on the map so much. I guess it did in one way or another.

So you saw Joan there downstairs early on doing her thing? Oh, yeah. She was already famous, though, for me. Yeah. Were you guys friends? Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

I used to stand in the stairwell and listen to her. She was so funny, outrageous. Yeah, yeah. Even then, from the beginning. Oh, yes. So when did you do Merv Griffin? So I took that review around. I took it to an agent called Gloria Sapphire,

who was sort of friendly with some people I kind of peripherally knew. Yeah. And she sent me over to Griffin. Yeah. She sent me to the Paul Simon. I can't think of his name now. I know he's around, or he would be around. Yeah.

Paul is his first name. But he was the first one that really locked into me and put me on the show. On Merv. Yeah. And Merv was in New York at that time. Yes. A lot of the daytime people were. Was Mike Douglas there too?

Mike Douglas. I did him later when I was well known. He was in Philadelphia, right? Yeah, Philadelphia, right. Uh-huh. So you do Merv. I do Merv. And I started doing Merv kind of, you know, sort of maybe once every month or every two months.

Oh, yeah. And I would buy the kinescope. Yeah. But first I did the World's Oldest Living Beauty Expert on Merv's show. Yeah. And Hermione Gingold was the other guest on the show. And so I was a little nervous about doing Lupe, Madame Lupe. Did it go over well?

Oh, yeah. It went over very well. Because what happens is she rejuvenates her face, and then she sneezes, and it all falls down again. Then I went back to the, I said I would go back to the upstairs if I could do one of my own monologues on the show. Right, yeah. That's kind of a baby. In the review, yeah.

Yeah, so I went back in 68. Yeah. I did a commercial too, so I made money on a Vicks VapoReb commercial. Nice. With the little waves coming up? Is that the ones where you rub it and then like you. Well, I don't think they quite hit on those graphics yet. Yeah, okay.

Those animated graphics. It was more like I would be like a housewife, you know, doing the dishes and I'd hear my husband sneeze in the living room. And I'd run and get the Vicks VapoRub and rip his shirt off and put it on his chest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank God. So I got to California because a woman her husband was in the review and

she was going to populate a show on ABC called Music Scene and she picked me to go along with David Steinberg was her client I didn't want to go to California I wanted to be a New York actor I didn't want to be on television

I just wanted to I didn't want to go to California. I wanted to be a New York actor. Right. I didn't want to be on television. I just wanted to. I didn't want a manager. You just wanted to do what? Cabaret shows? No. I thought I would get. I did audition for some Broadway shows. Yeah.

And I must have been unbelievably off the wall. I don't know what I did. Yeah. Because the kid, I'd make friends with the agent's assistant. And he'd say, what did you do at that at that audition i'd say what do you mean what did i do right and he just and i'd be real defensive about it and i'd say and i would like get off a couple of you know so you saw your curse words yeah so you saw you wanted to be a stage actress yeah i thought i should be i could go to the clubs and always do little monologues and stuff.

Yeah, yeah. But you wanted to do bigger things. For the fun of it, I wanted to be a serious actor. Right. But you get dragged out to LA.

So I go to California and... For the people... To be on music scene. Music scene, man. Yeah, 68. And I picked you

and at the same time an offer came in to go on Laugh-In. From George? From George. Yeah. How'd he see you? The beginning of the, he said that he saw me in 66 when I was on the Gary Moore show.

That's where Carol Burnett was discovered. Oh, wow. So I'm sure he looked at me a few years later and thought, ah, here's my Carol. Oh, yeah. So he probably did see you on that. Well, I didn't go on Laughin' until mid-season because I thought, well, Laughin's, everyone's a star who's going to be on Laughin'.

Yeah. And music scene was like a hip new show. It was like had a tie-in with Billboard. Yeah, well, what was it? What'd you do on that? We were like a little comedy. David Steinberg was the lead and there were two or three other,

and we were like a little comedy troupe. Interstitial bits? Yeah, and intro songs and all that stuff. So, but Laugh-In is, so you go mid-season in Laugh-In 1969? Yes, I appeared on Laugh-In for the first time December 29th, 1969. Did you like Schwatter?

Oh, I love him. Yeah. Do you guys still talk? Oh, yes. Yeah. It was just his birthday. Was it? How old's he? 90. Yeah. Do you guys still talk? Oh, yes. Yeah. It was just his birthday. Was it? How old is he?

90. Wow. How's he holding up? He's doing good. I talked to him a couple years ago. Do you? Yeah, I interviewed him, but I think really the entire interview was him trying to get me to do a new laughing with him.

Probably. Yeah. He was like, this is it. This is the time. The world needs it right now and we did do a 50th anniversary i know i saw it was great on netflix it was great yeah it was fun right yeah oh yeah it was great fun so did that so when you did laugh and you moved out here and that was the job i was already living here so i i stayed here yeah okay and that

was the job that's right i had my i had a 69 Firebird back in New York, and I had it brought out to California. Oh, don't you wish you still had it? Yeah. It had a Hemi engine. It was very tough. Yeah. And they used to – they said – my makeup artist used to say, we used to say, here comes Tomlin and that bomber or whatever.

Yeah. And it seems to me that laughing must have been just a blast. It was. Like, it just looked... Well, it was just phenomenal because for me it was because literally that first night

I aired as Ernestine, it was just a huge... People were stopping me on the streets the next morning. Yeah. They were... They'd stop their cars

when I was back in L.A. They would stop their cars at a light and jump out and do the bit yeah and just you know really excited about that seeing that character seeing me yeah we had so there were so many characters on there that like it must have happened with all the characters yeah i'm thinking at some point like uh it must have happened with um you know what's her name the ruth. Yeah. And it happened with who else? Artie, the old German soldier.

And then you did the old guy. You know what? I'm here after. You believe in the hereafter and you know what? I'm here after. Yeah. And then you did. And then the Edith Ann character.

Oh, Edith Ann introduced her the next year. Yeah. I went on the road with Dan and Dick when we wrapped at the end of the half season, I mean, from the mid-season to the summer. Yeah. And they would introduce me, and they would say, this girl walked out and sat down at the switchboard, and the crowd was just like I was.

Go crazy? Yeah. You were a rock star. I was a rock star for about a minute. Well, no, then you did the record in what, 71 or 72? Yeah, 71. And that won a Grammy Award and that must have made a lot of money, that record. I guess.

I didn't see it. No? Who did? The label? No, I don't know. I don't remember getting a lot of money from it. Yeah. label no i don't know i don't remember getting a lot of money from it yeah but i mean but certainly that you sort of i think it seems like you redefined what what comedy was at that time

that the characters became because there were plenty of stand-ups around you know but no one was doing exactly that what you were doing with all the different characters they would be contentful they would yeah people loved them so when did So when did you start working with Altman? Well, my partner Jane. When did you meet Jane? In 71. Oh, so that's a big year. Did the record.

You met Jane. I met Jane. Yeah, I met Jane after I was exploiting the record. I was touring. How did you meet her? A mutual friend. I was touring. How'd you meet her? A mutual friend. Oh, yeah. I came to New York for a record party and all that stuff.

Yeah. And my girlfriend brought her up to my hotel. Yeah. And that was that. She wasn't that excited. She didn't seem to know who I was. And that just drove you crazy. No, no.

I said, so I put a show on at the bitter end. I had a dark night, and I had a couple of days left in town. And I called him up, and I said, can I do a show? Yeah. I was doing anything to impress her. So I did a show. I put a show on, and sure enough, she came. Yeah.

Did you impress her? I didn't seem like I did i couldn't i was sure that i would just be like a whiz yeah yeah so you had to really fight for it huh i yeah i did but eventually she gave in yes she became uh she came out and helped me work on my edith ann album oh okay so she started like producing with you pretty quickly. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because she had written JT, which was in 69. She won a Peabody.

I didn't know that this was her history at the time. Yeah. But she was a wonderful writer. Oh, okay. But I didn't really know any of that. And JT was a book? JT became a book, but it was a teleplay first. Okay.

She wanted to be a songwriter and she used to go to the Brill Building. But she'd write these long story songs which were totally out of fashion. And later they became The Thing. You know, like American Pie and all that stuff. But she would they'd be guys playing those pianos

and singing those songs. And she'd just be hanging out trying to get... I think there was a bar at the bottom of the Brill Building. I don't remember. I never went to the Brill Building. I don't know. That was a whole scene, yes. But it was such a tough thing for her to break into.

And so she'd written a long story about a kid who was like a bag boy or something. And Gloria Sapphire, just by coincidence, I didn't know Jane knew Gloria Sapphire. She was her agent. She said, why don't you turn it into a – Jane had never written anything in terms of script or anything. She said, why don't you turn it into a script? Yeah.

And so she did. And she just has that facility. Yeah, yeah. And it was a huge hit. She got a piece. Peabody. She won a Peabody. And they played it

every year for 25 years at holiday oh no kidding and uh so many uh incredible like hilton owls and john singleton the director who's recently died yeah uh they were so they were so influenced by jt as kids oh wow because it's about a a black kid in Harlem who befriends a stray cat. And it's so magical. Oh, wow. But you had no idea that she had written that when you met her? No. Oh.

So neither one of you knew how impressive the other was. Yeah, the other one was, right. That's right. And then you created this amazing partnership that's lasted, what, 50 years? Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. Congratulations.

Thank you. Not many people pull that off. I know. Seems like a short time. It seems like, I think you've addressed this a bit, but there was a long period of time where you just assumed that people knew you guys were together, that there was no real reason to publicize it. It was a different time.

And did you get criticism for that at a certain point somewhat i mean sure people wanted me to to come make an announcement when was this when did that start in the 80s oh yeah easily yeah and you just didn't feel like you you needed to what was the point i didn't want to i didn't want to i mean of course i had some fear about it My mother had my mother had really my brother's gay. And when he was revealed as gay, my mother just about had a heart attack. Yeah. And, you know, she's Christian. And yeah, but she's really she was delightful, wonderful person. Great conversationalist, witty. Was she afraid for him? Oh, yeah. She just thought he was going to go to

hell. Right. And so it's so complicated. Yeah. Yeah. It's unfortunate with the health thing, because like, you know, you hear these stories about disowning, but that doesn't seem to be what happened. She was just terrified for his for his eternal safety. Yeah. And yeah, it's pretty heavy. Yeah, man. And so how did that manifest itself with their relationship? Well, they she they she very much loved him and stayed close to him. And me, too. Yeah. And she.

She knew you were gay as well. Yeah. Yeah. But later. Yeah. Later. Oh, yeah. Did she ever accept it?

Yeah. As far as I could tell. Right. Right. Right. later oh yeah did she ever accept it yeah as far as i could tell right right right but you just so you knew that it would cause her such grief that it didn't seem like there was a point i think she being public about it well i didn't see i didn't feel like you know just i felt like it would just be a lot for her to bear especially with all her relatives right right and, yeah. So you just didn't. So I didn't announce it, no. And then I did in 75.

Time Magazine offered me the cover if I would come out. Yeah. And it was just too ambiguous. Come out, get the cover. It was like some kind of bribe. I didn't like it. So you didn't do it? No, I didn't do it.

You were on the cover, weren't you? I was in 77. I got on the cover for my first Broadway show. Yeah, but you didn't have to do the come out deal. That was off the table. No, but it wasn't off the table. Jane was with me all the time. They never wrote about it.

And Newsweek was going to do a cover at the same time. That was when Pat Kingsley, the publicist, she was so artful. She pulled off a couple of other dual covers. They don't find out until they've already started the presses running. So you were both on there? No, I was only on Time. Newsweek got onto it. And that was for Intelligent Signs for the Time magazine? No, that was for Appearing Nightly. Oh, the first one. 77, yeah. You were the first woman to have a solo Broadway show, yeah? No, I think

as far as really solo by myself. Right. I mean, other people have had shows. Sure. Ruth Draper was alone on Broadway. I guess that's true. Ruth Draper's back, yeah. Not quite, but.

So, okay, so all this stuff is happening and you and Jane are working well together, but in terms of like, do you have any regrets about not coming out or no? In some ways I do. I mean, I felt like I could have been, it could have been very meaningful. For people.

I mean, even Ellen paid a terrible price, but she surpassed it. But initially, I mean, she suffered she she was she suffered quite a bit. Yeah. So that so that was also played into the fear of like how how would it affect the career and your appeal? Yeah, always. Everybody. Yeah. Everybody's kind of at you about it that, you know, that wouldn't. I mean, I'm enough of a. I'm enough of a showman that I know that it would have been something audacious to do. Right. I kind of didn't want to do it for that reason.

I wanted it to be. So what I did at that time when they offered me to cover in 75, and you can get this old album and you can hear it. Yeah. So I was doing a Modern Sc scream was the name of that album i was doing and i was being interviewed by a fan magazine i was playing all the characters yeah um and so and i put on the heterosexual interview yeah you know where she says what was what was it like to see yourself making love to a man on the big screen and i say well i've seen these women all my life i know how they walk. I know how they talk.

And it just went on like that. And I thought, this will be my way of coming out. On my own terms. Didn't mean a hill of beans. No, too subtle. Was it? I guess. Well, anybody, but it wouldn't be subtle to

anybody who was paying attention. Or who was a fan. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I guess it was your assumption that most people knew that needed to know, and that was that. Yeah, many people did know. Sure.

And there was never any secret. We were never secretive. Right, right, right. It wasn't like you were closeted. You were just not announcing it. Yeah. Yeah. So when did you meet, when did did altman when did you start working with altman oh i i had optioned a book yeah uh cynthia buchanan who's a friend became a friend of mine she had written a book called maiden m-a-i-d-e-n yeah it's hard to make that word clear maiden maiden

yeah and i just fell in love with it and i and i optioned the book yeah and jane wrote a screenplay yeah and uh and then my bob altman and i had the same agent sam cat sam cone yeah oh he's a big agent yeah he was a big agent he was wonderful yeah he was merrill's agent he was he really loved artists, you know. Yeah, yeah. And he was very devoted to Altman. Yeah. And so Altman offered me a part, this part in Nashville,

and he was going to have Joan Tewksbury direct Maiden. Uh-huh. And then when we were down in Nashville, the guys from Columbia came down because they wanted him to cut some time out of California split. Oh, really? And he punched one of them in the nose and he fell in the pool. Wow. Yeah.

So Maiden got canned. Because of that? Yeah. Oh, my God. So Nashville is like 75. And you got nominated for an Oscar, and it was a very serious role. And I watched it last night, and it's a really touching, heavy role.

But that seems like to be, as an actress, that you really did it. And did you want to do more of that type of acting? Yeah, I wanted to do everything. Yeah, and ultimately to do everything. Yeah. And ultimately you did, right? But was there a point where you decided to stick more with comedies or no? No, no, but more comedy came my way. Oh, okay.

I mean, they cast me in more comedies. Right. And so the next one, The Late Show, that was with Art Carney, right? Yeah. What an amazing guy to work with, huh? Yeah, he was such a sweet guy. And you must have remembered watching him on television. Oh, sure.

As Norton? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, he was something. And that was another beautiful role. But he so much wanted to be liked by the crew, you know? Yeah, oh, sure. He'd play the piano.

Oh, really? And I was like on the outs with the crew. I was like being real abstinent. You were? Why? Yeah, because they were just, they were moving like lightning. Bob Benton directed that movie. And Altman produced it.

Uh-huh. But they were just bouncing lights off the ceiling. We were in a real tiny little house here in L.A. someplace. And Art has white hair and a florid skin and I have sallow skin and black hair. And I said, well, listen, you guys are going to light me better. This is just not going to work, bouncing light off the ceiling. And they'd say, oh, I'd marry you. That kind of stuff. It was putrid. And so I finally, I took a mirror on the set every day and would challenge them to light me. Oh, wow.

So they didn't light me. Did they do it eventually? Yeah. And then Altman says, the guys tell me you're giving them a hard time. I said, Altman, I'm not going to take responsibility for this. Because we'd have dailies every day at his office.

And so when you did 9 to 5, that was a huge event for women everywhere. That must have, like, sort of— Oh, yeah, 9 to 5 was fabulous. And I became—and Dolly and Jane, we made good friends. Yeah. And we've been friends ever since. But that must have been one of those things where, you know, people now looked at you different. Like, you had this whole history of doing characters and everything else.

But I imagine after that movie in particular that people saw you in a different light. Like just as part of that crew. Like as sort of a hero to working women in a certain way. Yeah, maybe so. Maybe so. You know, I never thought of it in those exact terms. Did they do a Broadway show of it? Yeah.

We were there at the premiere in New York and here. And it was so surreal because from the audience it looked like us oh really wow yeah kind of trippy yeah meg kilty was like the dolly you know and she's built up strong yeah and i mean voluptuous and they and alice and jannie played me and it was kind of, she's much taller than I am, but it looked like me kind of lanky. Right, yeah, yeah. And Mr. Hart looked just like Dabney. Wow. It was really, and we'd be like sort of dumbstruck.

And the three of us sitting there, we felt like we were watching ourselves. Wow, that's wild. Yeah, and you and Dolly are still friends? Oh, yeah. That's so nice. And you did like three movies. Because Jane is from Tennessee. Right.

And Dolly's from Sevierville. Yeah. And Jane's from Morristown. And Dolly would say, when she first met Jane, she'd say, well, we go to Morristown to get our teeth fixed. That's hilarious. So the TV specials, it's funny because I interviewed Lorne Michaels years ago, and he wrote one of his first writing jobs was on a show for you, correct? That was with Pryor, right?

Pryor was on the first two. Yeah, like Lily and the Lily Thomas special. And that was 73. Three and 75. March of 73 and November of 73. Okay, yeah. And that second one won two Emmys. Right.

So now how did you meet Pryor? Well, I used to see Pryor occasionally at the, you know, the place. Comedy store? Yeah, not the comedy store, the other place. The Improv? Yeah, the Improv. Yeah. In New York.

In New York, right. Okay. And I'd first seen him on television on Ed Sullivan doing The Primps and the Primpses. Yeah. Yeah. And I just fell in love with him. Yeah. I just...

Yeah. I was so... I'm getting chills right now just... And so when I got a special, I wanted him on it above all. Yeah. And I went to him and I tried to get him to be on the special. Yeah. And so we had to like... we went, he didn't, I don't think he like kind of got who I was or anything.

Yeah. So I took, and he'd been blackballed already from Vegas. Remember all that stuff? When he lost it. Yeah. When he got mad. Yeah. And walked off.

Because he didn't want to be the Bill Cosby. Flunky. Yeah. Bill Cosby. I guess that was it. so he uh and but he'd done lady sings the blues but it was still in the can oh okay so he uh so he took me to the neighborhood and everybody knew who i was from laughing you know great which neighborhood was this and down here south central yeah whatever it would be watts somewhere whatever neighborhood

he yeah felt okay about yeah getting my endorsement okay yeah and uh because they loved like the old tasteful lady you know getting hit with wands and spreading their legs and all that stuff yeah and and of course they loved ernestine i guess anyway so then he asked me to go to a porno movie with him and I said okay I'll go but I'll pay my own way yeah and we did that and we just and anyway we hit it off and it was pretty soon he was going to be on the show was he a pretty big star at that point uh comedically was that his big year he was I don't i don't think not quite yet not shortly after sort of because but i was at his head we were working on the wino and the tasteful lady who gets stuck in an elevator together and he um and barry gordy called him to tell him how good he was in

lady sings the blue he'd just seen a cut and he cut and he told him he was going to be nominated. Yeah. And Richard was like that little primps and princess kid. Yeah. He was so excited and kind of couldn't believe it. Wow.

He was so gratified. Did he get nominated? I don't remember. I can't remember either. Well, he was a great actor. I mean, I just watched that one you did. Was it Opal and Juke?

Yeah, Juke and Opal. Yeah, Juke and Opal. So Jane had written that for him for the first show. Yeah. And Bob Precht was our partner. Yeah. I mean, they gave him to me, you know. And he didn't even send it over.

He said, they're not going to let you do that. Yeah. And so I just, so when I, they asked me to, and I had a huge rating off of that show, and it was because of Laugh-In. Uh-huh. So they asked me to do another one, and I said, well, I'll do it if I don't have to have a partner. Like an executive network executive, yeah.

Because they interfere with everything. Sure, sure. And so they said they wanted somebody that they could talk to. Yeah. So I interviewed everybody. I interviewed Norman. Yeah. I went to everybody that was like a— Norman Lear? to. Yeah. So I went, I interviewed everybody. I interviewed Norman. Yeah. I went to everybody

that was like a... Norman Lear? Yeah. Yeah. And I finally, I settled on Grant, Grant Tinker. Uh-huh.

Because he was kind of like more mild manner. As your executive? As your executive. As executive producer, right. Yeah. But even Grant would like pat my hand.

He'd say, you go home now. We'll take care of this. And it was just so personal for me. And I never. Were you able to do what you wanted to do with Grant? Well, quite a bit. Yeah.

Well, that worked out. Well, we didn't because Duke and Opal, we didn't get to do that on the first show. The second show I had done, I had a piece called War Games because the war in Vietnam was still on. Right. Almost going to be off maybe. And so I had a game where a woman, Mrs. Beasley goes in the backyard and there's a war going on in her backyard. Right. Yeah.

And so I taped it for the first show. Yeah. Didn't get on. I mean, they just stopped. No, no, it's not going to go on. It's not going to go on and all that stuff. Yeah. And so the second show, I taped Jukin Opal, and I taped War Games to Bargain with it.

Okay. I'd learned that from George. Oh, yeah. So you knew you'd get one. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted Jukin Opal. Yeah.

It's such a sweet, it's almost like a little play. Yeah. And that's the one with Alda, too. He comes in. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So which one, which show was that? I don't know which one.

What year was it? That was the second show. It must have been the second show. Let's see. No, no, here we go. 73, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

November of 73, that was our second show. Okay, yeah. Yeah. And was that the one that had a... Lauren wrote on that one. Yeah. Yeah. November of 73, that was our second show. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And was that the one that had a- Lauren wrote on that one. Yeah. Yeah, that's the first show he wrote on. It was Alan Alda, you, and Bill Gerber.

Yeah. You've been in the business a long time. Yeah, 50 years. So what's it like now? Do you love it? Yeah, I do. I mean, Jane and I loved, Jane fonda and i love doing uh grace and frankie and of course she's been in dc for the last three or four months getting arrested yeah old school

jane i went last i went last uh 27th yeah because she wasn't going to have too many people because it was right after the holidays so and i couldn't my my jane had taken a fall and hurt her shoulder and she i really didn't want to leave her, and so I wasn't able to go in the beginning, but it was sweet to go and be with Jane. Yeah. She's serious. She means business.

Oh, yeah. She really is connected to what it is that she believes in. Yeah, absolutely. And always has been. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you find... And always has been. Yeah. Now, you've done a lot of exploring with that stuff, and you grew up in a pretty Christian household, apparently.

Not so Christian. My father wasn't Christian. Oh, no, just your mom? Yeah. Oh, okay. My dad would take me to the track in the bookie joints on Saturdays, and my mother would take me to church on Sunday. So you got both sides.

It was very, very lovely childhood. Where'd you land spiritually though? Do you have anything or do you don't think about it? No, I'm not, I'm not religious at all. But do you have any belief? Do you have any, what keeps you, outside of the massive amount of supplements, what keeps you sane? Work? I'm not so sane. No. But I don't need anything like that.

But you're not the character in Grace and Frankie either. I mean, she's kind of a kook, right? Oh, yeah. You must have friends that ended up like that from the old days. Yeah, kind of. Well. That generation of kind of free spirits from the time. You know what I mean? Yeah, she's living in a commune and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I noticed that when I was watching Nashville, that all that expansive way of life, the sexual nature and just the sort of open-mindedness of that time.

I romanticize about it. Do you ever get nostalgic for it? Or am I idealizing that period? No, I think, no, I don't get, I don't miss it. I never was part of that. Yeah. I mean, I was part of everything. Yeah.

Whenever I were, I could play the room. Yeah, right, right, right. But you didn't get caught up with the trends or everything? everything. Yeah. Whenever I were, I could play the room. Yeah, right, right, right. But you didn't get caught up with the trends or everything. No. No. I like drugs, but I don't take them. Yeah, right. Well, I mean.

I took them for, I took them a little. I dabbled in them and stuff like that. After a certain point. And it's fun, but then you think, oh, God. I told my friends I have Parkinson's. I'm so worried that. Oh. Did they?

They got it? A lot of them do. Do you think it was from the Coke? I wonder. I'm so worried that... Oh. Did they? They got it? A lot of them do. You think it was from the Coke? I wonder. I wonder, too. You know, I wonder, too. If it didn't have some element. Maybe something that was cut with. Who knows? Yeah.

Because I've thought about that myself. I guess at that time, too, heroin was bad, too. I mean, there's a lot of people I know a lot of people who snorted heroin. Yeah. A lot of people died, probably. Yeah yeah i don't know i never did it either yeah i tried it wasn't my thing i snorted it once i didn't you know i liked going fast i didn't like going slow oh yeah i like going fast i like going fast too but yeah but we you know you get older you don't need that shit anymore no you don you don't. Because you want to stay alive.

That's part of it. Yeah. Yeah. And also, like, you don't want to freak out. I mean, you know, you get to a certain age where if your heart starts fluttering, you know, on its own, you're panicking. Why increase the possibilities of that happening? I guess you're right. I guess that's probably the truth I came to in somehow intuitively.

Yeah, of course. You know, like, is it worth, like, what do you want to panic when you're fucking 70 over drugs? I mean, I'm like 56. I haven't been sober for 20 years. You've got a whole life ahead of you. I know. And it doesn't involve cocaine or pot or anything. You've got a whole life ahead of you.

So, wait, what season are we on with grace and frankie we're going to be shooting seven but six is in the can yeah and that's what's on now be released january 15th and people love it yeah they do it must be great like there must be a whole audience for like you know people who've been with you forever like you know as the fans there must be people who are like in their 70s now who oh some people have died yeah but like you know, as the fans, there must be people who are like in their seventies now. Oh, some people have died. Yeah. But like, you know, you're a constant in people's lives and that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. And you're an inspiration because you keep working and now you're married and out and comfortable. You've had a relationship for 15 years. You've never stopped working and you keep doing provocative stuff stuff it's a you know i think

it's it's just it gives people hope that uh you know life is worth living i think yeah that would be nice god i think it's true i think i would like it but if we can't stop the climate well yeah well i mean uh i guess that our days are that That's for sure. Yeah. Well, okay. We'll work on that. Okay. We'll do what we can on the day-to-day basis. Enjoy Grace and Frankie. And I don't know.

Try not to. Oh, God. We're back at the climate. Australia is burning. Oh, goodness. The koalas. So many. Oh, no.

The little kangaroos running. Oh, no. The little kangaroos running. Oh, no. I hadn't thought of that yet. You're going to make me depressed. What did I even do? I don't get depressed too much. You brought up the climate. I know.

Then I dwell on the numbers and stuff. Let's not do it. Let's leave on a high note. Okay. It was very exciting to talk to you. I've been wanting to for note. Okay. It was very exciting to talk to you. I've been wanting to for a long time. I've been trying to talk to you. I've talked way too much and told a lot of...

But these are nice little details. I enjoyed all of it, and I'm glad you had fun playing with the top. I hope we don't lose any listeners. We're not losing anybody. Thank you, Lily. Thank you, Mark. I love her what an amazing treat that was for me it's just really great she's just amazing to talk to an amazing person uh the new season of grace and frankie premieres on netflix this wednesday january 15th go watch nash though, if you haven't done that in a while. Now let's fucking get psyched out.

Let's do some psychedelic things. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 I'm going to go ahead and play it. Boomer lives. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m.

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