WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1090 - Brian Cox

Episode Date: January 20, 2020

When listening to actor Brian Cox talk with Marc, it’s hard to see how this pleasant man is anything like the despotic, cold-blooded patriarch Logan Roy, who he plays on HBO’s Succession. Except there is one thing they have in common: They both see the human experiment as rather ludicrous. Brian’s view of a world that is absurd above all else has served him well playing any number of Shakespearian characters, Hannibal the Cannibal, and his real life role as a champion for Scottish independence. This episode is sponsored by Awkwafina is Nora from Queens on Comedy Central and SimpliSafe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. My guest today is the amazing actor and veteran actor. Guy's been at it for many years, 60 years maybe. He'll tell you. I can't remember what exactly he said, but Brian Cox is here. His most recent incarnation is the incredible character Logan Roy on the HBO series Succession,

which is spectacular. Obviously, you know him from everything else he's done. For me, it's really, I remember him from Manhunter and Adaptation, and then it just kind of fills itself in. He's like, oh yeah, he's in that too. But I was really excited to talk to him, and he was into talking. So that's happening. I hope you're well. Are you well?

Are you okay? We're ready. We're braced. We're strapped in here to wait to see if this country actually I think really this impeachment trial or whatever this circus is going to be or however it unfolds, though not being political show. I'm an observational comic and an observational person, and I base my observations on logic and personal experience. But if they somehow manage to stifle any witnesses or introduction of documents into this trial and also stifle the press from having access to the trial itself, it seems that this is not the test, but this will be a transition into an authoritarian government. So we should know within a few weeks how America is going to go, really. That aside, how's everyone doing? I just wanted to put that out there because whatever you may think of whatever I have to say or however you react to the very few sort of instances of me engaging in political discussion, I do it so I'm on record out loud of saying what I've said. Whether you agree with it or you find it tedious or boring or you think I'm wrong or it's not necessary, I need to know that I spoke my heart on this particular thing. So when many of us have to leave, I was like, I knew that I knew that was happening. Or look, I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong. God, I want nothing more than to be called a fucking

idiot at the end of this because I was so off base. Because I'm willing to step out there, and I'm willing to make mistakes, and I'm willing to say things that I feel that may turn out not to be true. Speaking of things I found out about myself from back in the day, how about all the way back five or six generations? My episode, many of you know that I was on Finding Your Roots, the PBS show with Henry Gates. I recorded that a while back, and it's going to be on.

It's going to be on tomorrow night, Tuesday night, January 21st. I know it's on PBS out here at 8 p.m. I don't know where it airs near you, probably the same time, but the episode features me, Jeff Goldblum, and Terry Gross. So initially when I heard Terry was going to be on, I thought that the show, the theme was interviewers. But now it's just I think that the subtitle of the show is Three Jews. Or Look at the Jews and we go back with the Jews. But it's similar. The title is similar to that.

It's actually Beyond the Pale. Pale of Settlement was a part of Russia where almost every Ashkenazi Jew has roots. So I'm very excited about this. I have no idea how I mean, I spent almost like three to four hours with Gates with this large book that they put together through amazing research, almost investigative research. I would say, yes, investigative research. And they were able to trace my Jewish roots further back than they had ever before,

I was told, with my dad's paternal line into Russia. They found documentation, I think, six generations back. Not necessarily information, but they got names. They got the names going all the way back. There's some great names, too. After it airs, I will share some of the spectacular names. Fucking beautiful. Anyways, admitting mistakes in terms of wanting to be proven wrong.

Subject line, say it ain't so. Dear Mark, I've been a fan for a long time. On one of my first trips to New York, my dad handed me a copy of the art section from the Times and asked me what play our family should see. Recognizing your name from your Conan appearances, I said that we should see The Jerusalem Syndrome. My dad responded with something like, I'm not taking you guys to see some Jew talking about his Messiah complex in an off-Broadway one-man show.

We're seeing Les Mis. When I moved to New York, one of the first things I did was go to a taping of one of your comedy specials. It was great, and getting to see you for free made me feel like moving to New York was the right decision. Some years ago, I took some friends to see you at a basement in Park Slope. You read divorce papers for half the show, and I tried to explain to my friends that you were going through a rough time.

You know, did I do that? Did I read from them? I can't remember. I feel like he's conflating Lenny Bruce reading his court documents about his obscenity trials and me reading my divorce papers, but I'll take it. In dark moments, Not Sold Out used to give me some solace in a way that your podcast does now. And the album still comes on when I put iTunes on shuffle. There is a joke on the album where you say something like, quote, now that I'm 35, there's not going to be any new growth from here on out. It's all decay management, unquote. When I was in my 20s, I thought this was hilarious. Now that I'm in my

40s, it's a little less hilarious. Over the past decade or so, I've listened to you finally find the audience you deserve and become completely self-accepting. And personally, I saw my own self-improvement really pick up steam around age 38. So the evidence is there that middle age growth is possible and that it is occurring for both of us. It would just help me out to hear you say that it was just a joke. You were wrong. And despite the two steps forward, one step back nature of personal progress, middle age growth is not a mirage thanks for all the laughter and entertainment okay it says please exclude his name so i will well nameless man okay i'll admit it i was wrong i was there is definitely many possibilities almost

constant possibilities for growth at any age in at least one or two areas of your being. And I think that the cynicism involved in that joke was what I felt at the time. And it did take me another, took me a while to acknowledge growth or to feel growth or to manifest growth. I think that at that time it was i was at a crossroads there there might not have been any growth but it turned out there was so okay see now i'm just justifying yeah i was wrong and also it was a fucking joke sometimes jokes are there to create relief for me and relief for you which it did and we're happy i turned out to be wrong right nameless gentlemen we're happy yes we are also folks i got a couple shout outs um can i do that can i do shout outs just be you know that

aren't ads but they are you know i want to thank the people at chewy.com chewy.com sells pet stuff um they sell the uh you know pet pet food, pet toys, everything pet. But it's like the Amazon for pet stuff, Chewy. And I've been buying my cat food there and my litter. And the folks over there sent me a nice little gift package over Christmas and I neglected to. I didn't want to. I don't know. I don't know what to do.

I know that some people want me to, hey, man, post this, show this. You know, you like this, show this. You like this, do this. But I think it was just a nice gesture, and I didn't acknowledge it. So thank you, people at Chewy. Now, let me ask you a question, a business question. Can I exchange some cat food that my cats no longer eat for food that they do eat? You know what? I'll just look on the website. You don't have to answer that. that also parkman woodworks just made me a beautiful table parkman woodworks at parkman woodworks on instagram made me a fucking stunning um table from out back now i got to get a grill do you guys know what grills to get i'm not a big

grill guy but i'd like and i'm not you know i don't i don't plan on evolving into a big grill guy but i'm a pretty good cook and i've never really had an easy grill to just go out and grill with. I used to have the Weber little one, the little semi-circle one. What do they call it? The little one that basically is about the size of a slightly large wok, and you just cook on the ground. But I think I'm stepping up. I'd like to get a grill that's

more accessible that's better that's maybe propane or wood pellet and i'd like to uh you know just have it so i can cook on it without even thinking twice about it so where it's not an ordeal and i'd like it to be big enough to where i can entertain people for a couple reasons not just because i want to grill outside but i you know it gets really hot in the kitchen if it's hot outside, so it'd be nice to have that option. Whatever the fuck I'm talking about. All I'm saying is I'm not going to become some sort of grill bro or pit master. I just want a nice propane grill for the back, and if anyone's got anything they want to tell me about grills, tell me. All right?

Just tell me. You can tweet at me, or you can email me at, what is it, wtfpod at gmail.com. Now, look, this was actually a good note, and I think that I'm going to try it this time. Because I talk about my tour dates a lot, but I've been putting the date first, which is logically dumb. Because if you're listening in your car or whatever, and I, and I say the date, a lot of times who's going to register a date. And then I say the name of the city after,

and you're like, Oh, that's me. What did he just say about the date? So this guy suggested I switch them and it's fucking genius. And why would I do it? Otherwise? Anyways,

Cleveland, Ohio at the Agora theater, January 30th. That's a Thursday. I'll be in grand Rapids, Michigan at the Fountain Street Church on Friday, January 31st. I'll be in Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the Turner Hall Ballroom, Saturday, February 1st. I'm just going to say the date. Fuck the day.

I'm going to be in Orlando, Florida at Hard Rock Live on February 14th. I'm going to be in Tampa, Florida at the Strez. I'll be at the Strez Center, February 14th, I'm going to be in Tampa, Florida at the Stras. I'll be at the Stras Center. February 15th, I'll be in Portland, Maine at the State Theater. On February 20th, I'll be in Providence, Rhode Island at Columbus Theater. February 21st, I'll be in New Haven, Connecticut at College Street Music Hall. On February 22nd, I'll be in Huntington, New York at the Paramount Theater. February 23rd.

Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for links to all the venues. Can you dig it? So I'm back from Atlanta, obviously. I was there for a week being sedentary, being on set. Had a nice scene to sort of finish out most of the work I'm going to do on the Respect film. out most of the work I'm going to do on the Respect film. Had a nice scene with Jennifer in the last day in her mansion, in a mansion that is being presented as her mansion. And I got one more day to shoot the big concert. I'm going to be part of that. The Amazing Grace concert from, I think it was 72. And that's, I just have one more day of shooting. And it's, uh, it was great. Although I didn't do much and I've been trying to take care of my back. I'm going,

I'm going to go. I'm going to a chiropractor for the first time in my life tomorrow. I'll let you know how that goes. I was just trained not to believe them almost as if they're witch doctors or, or, or, uh, snake oil salesmen, or, or just hustlers of a sort. Guys with a racket. A racket. There's a lot of rackets. A racket. But I'm going, and then I'm going to go to the regular doctor two days later, and I'm just going to average it out. And I'm going to read a thank you note. Hi, Mark Maron. Just a quick note to say that your talking about the loss of La Fonda was really a huge moment, vulnerable and generous of you. For all of our talk in podcasting and public radio about driveway moments and storytelling, as a listener, this just felt

like the simple, powerful moment of one person living life. One microphone in a little room, not live on stage, and the truth. It was that lightning in a bottle moment in radio broadcasting that I've heard so many people describe throughout the years. It's hard to know when that moment occurs in podcasting because there are currently just under 11 billion people making podcasts thrice daily, which is great in so many ways, but it does mean that the collective conversation among listeners is fragmented, to put it mildly. So I just want to say that, personally, here was one moment that found me in my car at night, parking under a giant sky full of stars in the mountains up in Bearsville, that made me feel less alone in the world about

one of the most painful things I've had to do in life. I'm stumbling around here with words, but I just wanted to tell you that the reason people make things really exploded in my brain that night while I was listening to you. It felt like the kind of explosion Ginsburg described when he wrote about how certain words with enough distance between them causes a synaptic spark. He was defining how poetry works or resonates at its best. Thanks for the work you do. Thanks for making things. I'm sorry for your loss. Here's to all of us humans on earth trudging the road of happy destiny, occasionally keying the mic on the walkie to let each other know what we are seeing along the way. Best, Dan, New York.

seeing along the way. Best, Dan, New York. Thank you, Dan. That was a lovely email. And I appreciate that you had that experience with what I do. I've had that experience with what other people do. And I'm grateful for it when it happens to me. Thank you for listening, buddy. I hope you're okay. Brian Cox is a great actor. And he just won the golden globe award for his performance in hbo succession uh the show has been renewed for a third season i believe that i recorded this interview maybe like the day before the golden globes i believe that i i think it was i i really I want to check that. But I believe we recorded this interview when he was out here for the Globes the day before the Globes. I flew to Atlanta, Georgia the next day and I bar, in the Whole Foods, eating a salad out of a box, next to a guy wearing a camo hat, a camo shirt, and camo pants, all different shades of camo, with sunglasses on, drinking a six-pack of Mexican beer in cans.

I sat there and watched Brian Cox win, and I said, I just talked to that guy. I just talked to that guy yesterday. To nothing. So this is me talking to Brian Cox to you, for you, from the day before he won a Golden Globe. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. A Golden Globe. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I was just in Ireland for two weeks in Northern Ireland. Yeah. It's fucking beautiful. It's stunning.

It's absolutely stunning. And Scotland is more stunning. That's what I hear. Yeah, it's more stunning. It's absolutely stunning. And Scotland is more stunning. That's what I hear. It's more stunning. I mean, my family originally, in the mid-19th century, we're called Micmacs. We're Irish Scots. Okay. So we're actually Irish descent brought up in Scotland.

Now, is that like the Micmacs looked at in a positive light? Well, the Irish were never looked at in a positive light. The Irish had the, I mean, I did a program a few years ago on the television, which is, it was called From the Workhouse. Yeah. And which was the English way of saying, which was rather polite. But actually, the Scottish way, it wasn't called the workhouse. It was called the poorhouse.

Uh-huh. Yeah. rather polite. But actually, the Scottish way, it wasn't called a workhouse. It was called a poorhouse. And you could only get, you went into the poorhouse because it was the only way you can get any medical help by registering the poorhouse. So I discovered that my great-great-grandfather, who was born in Derry, this is on my mother's side. He was called- In Ireland. Yeah. He was called Patrick McCann. And he, at the age of 39, entered the poorhouse with his six-year-old son, Sam, having lost five of his eight kids, including his wife. Oh, my God. To what? Everything.

Yeah. And he was a canal worker. Yeah. And he'd injured himself. And he did eventually become a drunk. And he injured himself, and he did eventually become a drunk. But they moved like in the last year of his wife's life, they moved something like 10 times.

And they used to do these what they called midnight flits, so they'd get out paying the rent and they would just move. And I kept saying, well, what about the structure of the families? Wasn't there a support? And then this woman, this young woman said, oh, I'll show you the structure of the families. Your great-great-grandmother was called Sarah McGuire. And I said, oh, okay. She said, and I'll show you where she lived.

In fact, I'll show you the entrance in the Mitchell Library. So I went to the Mitchell Library, and they showed this entrance, and it said, Sarah McGuire lives on a stair in Calcadons. Wow. And they took me to this place, and they said, this is where she'd live, and they showed me a step, and that would be it. No kidding. Yeah.

And this is some sort of like, it was a show based on your family's roots. It was like finding your roots. They did a few people. Right, right. They do that here, the finding your roots show. Yeah, it's that. And the fact that my beleaguered great-grandfather, his eldest son, his youngest son, and his middle son survived. All the other kids, five of them died. All the girls died.

And he was desperate to get it. He was in Glasgow. This was in Glasgow because he was working there. And the Irish really got a rough time. They were not treated well. But when you find out that stuff about your family, how did it affect you? I mean, knowing that. Well, you realize you've got all this information in your DNA.

Right, yeah. You kind of go when you try to sort of, when you become conscious of it, you realize where little anxieties come from. It's right. It's there. It's right. It's passed through the generation to generation. So it kind of, in a way, I think it's sort of responsible being the man who I am.

Yeah. I think I'm, in a way, I have a kind of gratitude towards it, whereas it's also a burden. I mean, I also had a pretty difficult time as a child because my dad died when I was eight and my mother was institutional. Really? Now, the people you found out about were like four or five generations back. No, they were my mother's grandfather. He was my mother's grandfather. My grandfather was a

mysterious figure he yes we could never find his war records he was he was in the um he was in the first world war my mother always said he was a 21 year service man but i couldn't find he was a drunk as well of course which went with the territory and he was the he was the eldest son of this patrick yeah and patrick eventually ended up in an asylum and i got the last um in 1910 wandering the the the wards of the asylum still thinking he was a 14 year old boy from derry this is your mother your grandma yeah my mother's grandfather oh wow yeah so the so the mental illness yeah you could track that's right pretty far back. That's right. What was it specifically? You know, stress.

I mean, stress brings on all kinds. I mean, my mother, she couldn't deal with the death of my father, and she felt horribly guilty for it because my father was rather gentle. He had a shop. He was the youngest son of a family, and his sisters took care of him, like my sisters took care of me. They made sure he was going to be all right. So his elder sister, I mean, there were 13 of them altogether. Oh, wow.

His elder sister, after the war, she had a pension, and she bought a little shop. Yeah. And my father worked in the mills. And our hometown is Jute Mills. Jute Mills. Yeah. What do they make? Is it a fabric, a rug?

Yeah. I know Jute. Well, you know a covered wagon? Yeah, sure. That would be made in Dundee. Oh, okay. All right. Whenever you see a Western-

It's almost like a burlap. That's right. Yeah. That's what. Yeah. That's what they did. That's what they did there? Well, they discovered it through... What they did... How they discovered it was that you know, it's a... The east coast of Scotland was a great weaving community. Yeah.

And they discovered this thing called jute. Yeah. And they also discovered it because Dundee was a whaling city. Yeah. So they discovered it. If they dipped this yarn in whale oil, it extended. The jute. The jute extended.

Yeah. So that's how they set up the jute industry. And that's why we also supplied the tents for the Confederate Army as well. It's an extraordinary story. In the States? In the States, yeah. Oh, yeah. me as well. It's an extraordinary story. In the States? In the States, yeah. Oh, yeah. Dundee,

my hometown, had the highest child poverty and the richest people in the world at one point. Now, is this something that you've grown up fascinated with, or is this all like something new for you? No, no. It's something I've been aware of because I'm aware of my roots, and I think of the people who get the tap end of the bath in my life you know so i've been i've been sort of constantly aware of that and i did a couple of programs i did a couple of documentaries on uh i did one i did one on jute i did one on the on jute yeah on my family's religion you know because my what happened in the 1850s, the people, this is my father's family, they all came from Ireland. Yeah. And there was no work from them for the men.

Yeah. The men were known as kettle boilers. That's a phrase based on what? Making tea. Okay. Boiling the kettle. This is not a positive thing. They were like house husbands.

I get it. Except without any of the care or responsibility. And of course, that's when illegal, well, not illegal alcohol, but blended alcohol came in. And that's where in the early 1840s, 1850s, the alcoholic rate in Scotland was something like 45% it's crazy I was there briefly and I saw more public vomiting that I'd seen yeah in Glasgow I yeah yeah yeah I didn't that was a few years ago oh yeah that's a tradition public vomiting there's a big Scottish tradition which we keep up and we do it rather well very well yeah with the Northeastern people do,

because they drink Newcastle Brown Ale, they do lateral vodka. Yeah. You can't, it comes out laterally. Straight. But in Scotland, we bend over. We have the decency to bend over. But keep moving.

But keep moving. Don't stop. Yeah. So anyway, that was the history. And so jute was the thing. So when they brought them over in cattle loads, and Irish and Highlanders, Highland families as well, predominantly Catholic, and they came over,

and it was the women. The women had been, you know, they'd been, they'd weaved and they'd spin from stuff, you know, they'd done that all their life. They know the tools. They know the tools. They know the tools. The process. They came into the big industry of the jute industry,

and it was 80% of the working population of my hometown were female. Wow. So they're strong women, matriarchal women? Very matriarchal. Very, very. I mean, they did the most amazing things. And this was your mother, your grandmother? This is my grandmother. This is my grandmother.

This is my grandmother's generation, even my great-grandmother's generation. And they did extraordinary things. They were literally, you know, they were Catholics. And they built, they gathered the money. I don't know how they did it. But they built six of the most incredible churches where they brought an Italian designer in. And Hanson, who designed the Hanson Cab, he designed one of the churches, the church where my parents were married. This is in your hometown.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the Catholics have always been good at building stunning churches to make sure that the rabble understands who's in charge. That's right. I mean, it's a kind of, yeah. Awe-inspiring. Yeah, and sort of law of diminishing returns as well. It seems like it now. Yeah.

But it was very strong. And there was a thing called the Mother's Union, which was very powerful. So you grew up pretty Catholic? I was part of the old tridentine. I mean, that's my theatrical sense. It comes from my Catholic ritual. I loved Catholic ritual. I don't believe in any of it now, but I loved the ritual.

You still like it? I like the ritual. You can watch it? Yeah, I do. The swinging, smoking, robes. Yeah, I can go to midnight mass. And, of course, the great thing about Catholicism is confession. Yeah.

I just watched, I started watching that two popes thing. I've always been sort of fascinated with confession, but I'm a Jew. Yeah. Well, that's why you have Freud. Yeah. You see, he picked up that Catholic confession was a good idea. I know, but he confused everything. He did.

He did. The Catholics keep it pretty simple. Yeah, that's right. That's bad. Say this. Don't do that again. But that's also a Jewish thing, confusion. Confusion, absolutely. Yeah, that's right. That's bad. Say this. Don't do that again. But that's also a Jewish thing, confusion. Confusion, absolutely.

Ongoing dialogue with our problems and whoever will listen to them. Exactly. We have that kind of relationship with God. Yeah, no matter who he is. Why? No matter who he is. Exactly. But you found in your life confession useful?

When I was a kid, yeah. I mean, I did because it was a way of offloading any angst that you had. Yeah, and there was plenty. There was plenty, and you didn't have any. So there was alcohol and confession. Yeah, alcohol and confession. And that was the root of it. The closed circle kind of.

Yeah, that was the root of it. And it was the women. The women, they kept it going. They were the ones who, you know, I mean, my father was not a good Catholic, but my mother made him a good Catholic. Right. And how did your father pass away so young? He was 51. He had pancreatic cancer.

Oh, my God. And it was a... That's the worst. It was a hell of a blow to the family because he was a very loved man. You were eight? I was eight. And he was kind of, I mean, my father, it's a problem I've had with fatherhood. I'm a terrible father.

You think so? Oh, yeah, really not good at all because my father is mythic. Yeah. Obviously, you're comparing yourself. Yeah, so how can you be, you know, what have you got? I mean, everybody bases their thing on their dad. Trying to do better or trying to do different. Trying to do different or having a.

Not doing what that guy did. Not doing what that. Exactly. Well, I didn't have any of that. My father was like, he was like a saint. So I kind of thought, there's no way I can live up to this. So I just abandoned it. And when my kids came along, I just said, listen, sorry.

Do what you can. You're banking on the wrong person. I said, you know, it's not going to work. It's not going to happen. How are they turning out? Well, they're turning out actually okay. But my wife keeps saying, because she had a similar background to me. She had hippie parents who let her do everything.

So she says, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. And I go, I don't know anything about boundaries i don't know how to say you cannot do this or you cannot do that i'm hopeless yeah no but yeah well that's interesting because usually there was i guess not knowing how to have boundaries is better better than to be shut down exactly yeah i mean i mean i just it's it's hard when you go it has to be like this and i go well who well, who says? That's my thing. Can we negotiate this? Exactly. It's in a way that we can just... And I talk to my boys and I say, but they're

horrible hormonal kids. How many do you got? Well, I have, from a previous marriage, I have my eldest son who's coming up to being 50. Wow. I was a child bride at one point. And my daughter, my crazy, wonderful daughter, who's 40. And then I've got two boys. And the weirdest thing about my boys is they're, I mean, you know, I'm not very tall, but I always wanted to be tall when I was a kid.

My wife is quite petite. Yeah. But we have these six foot three sons. How'd that happen? I have no idea. teeth. But we have these six foot three sons. How'd that happen? I have no idea. But there was a paternity suit we talked about at one point, but apparently they are my children. You're still married to the woman? Oh yeah. She's here. She's back at the peninsula waiting for me. So now this shop your father had, what was the shop? It was a little grocer shop. And you

remember the shop? Oh, very well. I remember it. And my father, that was the problem because he was in a ghetto community and he gave everybody what they called tick, which was credit. Sure. And nobody paid their bills. Right. So he was left holding the baby. And he's got the food. Yeah.

And this is what happened. Yeah. So when he died, he had 10 pounds in the bank and all this debt. And there were five girls and one boy and you? There was three girls and two boys, me and my elder. My other brother buggered off. I mean, my only brother buggered off. As soon as my father died, he joined the army. He couldn't cope. I mean, he was actually, in many ways, my brother was more traumatized by my, everybody thought I was the one who suffered from my brother.

Right. But actually, I think looking back, my brother was the one who got brutalized by it all, joining the army and, you know. Oh, really? He just couldn't handle it? Yeah, he couldn't. And then you were with the three women.

I was with the three women, and they kind of looked out for me. And your mom. And my mom. And my mom, you know, my mom was very troubled by it all. And she was very, she was a, you know, she was an interesting, she was so typical of, of working class women in, in that part of the country, in my part of the country. You know, she went into service in Canada when she was a young woman. She came back and married my, she met my father and married him. And she always regretted

the fact that, you know, that, you know, the women, they had a bad rap. Yeah. They had a particularly

bad rap. So it was tough for her. And my father was very generous and my mother's great cry was charity begins at home. So there was a tension there. Yeah.

And it also played on him and i think it contributed to his demise because i think he just thought oh fuck it i'm out of here i can't deal with this anymore but you do do something to me okay you got me oh yeah yeah you think so oh really you've screwed the pancreas right okay i'm out of here and that's a quick one that's a quick one three weeks three weeks Three weeks? Three weeks. After diagnosis? Yeah. Wow. And so you were brought in, and your mother started to waffle mentally immediately? Yeah, she, well, she, you know, I mean, I witnessed, I came home one day from school, and she was cleaning the oven. Oh, really?

Yeah, and I thought, Ma, what's going on? She said, oh, I'm just cleaning the oven a wee clean. I said, oh. I said, but what's that smell? Oh, God, I must have left the gas on. Wow. And you saved her. I saved her.

At that time. Well, I didn't even know that's what I did, but I realized later on that I'd saved her. Oh, my God. Yeah. So your brother goes into the Army. Is this where you start wanting to act? No, no. I started wanting to act because my dad used to make me do Jolson impersonations when I was two.

Oh, yeah? Singing? Yeah. With blackface or not? Not quite black. I did sit on a coal bunker, but I didn't do blackface. But I did all the actions. I did Mammy and Tootsie.

And you were good at it? Yeah. And I was amazing. And of course, our great festival in Scotland is Hugmanay, New Year's Eve. It goes on for days. It's still going on now? Yeah, it's still going on now. It will be still going on.

People will be dying from drink and what have you. Still vomiting in the streets of Glasgow. Yeah. So, no, that was the background. And when I got that sense of approval, I thought, wow, this is good. And you made him laugh? Yeah, I made him laugh. I made him enjoy, and it was good.

And I thought, wow, this is, and it's something I held on to. And I always was the class clown. Oh, yeah. You know, this is the way I could deal with the violence because it was innately violent. I remember one time there was a guy who was probably autistic. We know that now. He was called Harry Carey, we called him. And he was a sweet kid, but he was very, you know, quite clearly. And these other guys in the school made me fight him.

You're not a fighter? I'm not a fighter, no. So I ended up beating myself up. In front of him? Yeah. And all the kids realized they were dealing with a crazy guy. Because I was hitting myself. Really?

Yeah. I didn't know. I thought, how do I get out of this? Wow. I can't beat up Harry Carey. So I go, oh, I'll hitting myself. Really? Yeah. I thought, how do I get out of this? Wow. I can't beat up Harry Carey. So when I go, oh, I'll beat myself up. So you freaked them all out. And I freaked them all out.

And they never bothered me again. The crazy kid. The crazy kid, yeah. Wow. It's sort of interesting. I mean, the sort of psychological dynamics of understanding how powerful putting on a show or entertaining is. like understanding how powerful putting on a show or entertaining is because your father, who kind of carried a heavy load and was not necessarily that happy, you could entertain him.

I have the same relation with my dad. I can make him laugh, and he was a depressive fuck. Well, my dad was rather shy. He was a rather quiet man who was put into a position by his sisters, and he sort of tried to live up to it and he did he he was i mean i mean my dad when he died something like 300 people came to his funeral wow you know he was important member of the community yeah and he was and he was loved he was really loved yeah and uh and my mother was frustrated by him because he was just he was too generous you know to a fault and my mother you know and she because he was just, he was too generous, you know, to a fault.

And my mother, you know, and she'd had a drunken dad. She did this drunken Irish father, you know. Right. So she ended up like kind of a control freak? Yeah. She tried to keep control. Yeah. She tried to keep, but she wasn't really a control freak.

Right. Because she, it snapped her. Yeah. But she wasn't boozy? No, no, no, no. She drank at the end of her life, she would drink fortified wine. The stuff you get in the pharmacy.

You know, that fortified stuff. She became slightly addicted to that. I'm trying to find this photo. Of the store? Yeah. It's a nice photo. Is the storefront still there, the building? No, the building all got torn down. They destroyed my city, which was horrible.

The city, we had a very corrupt city government in the 1960s, and the guy, they went to jail eventually. Yeah. One of them was in the demolition business, and they demolished the city.

Really? Yeah. To rebuild? Yeah. As a commercial development? Yeah. They went to jail eventually. One of them was in the demolition business, and they demolished the city. Really? To rebuild? Yeah. As a commercial development? Yeah. And it was this beautiful little medieval town, and they tore down buildings, which if it had been Edinburgh, nobody would have ever done it. So when did you start actively getting involved with theater?

getting involved with theater? I started getting involved with theater when I was... Okay, my education was a total disaster. I mean, I... Well, you're running around beating yourself up. Well, yeah.

Or the other thing I was doing when I was at primary school, I would always... I would go for what we call in Scotland messages, what you would call errands. So the great time for me was when the Maris brothers,

we had Maris brothers who taught us first, and they were great, and then they took them all away. It was when they did a little bit of social engineering, when they broke up communities and put them in these horrible housing schemes outside the city. Like projects, almost? Yeah, project.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Horrible. So we were not affected by that. housing schemes outside the city you know like projects yeah almost yeah yeah yeah horrible yeah so um we we didn't we were not affected by that we managed to stay where we were we lived where we were we eventually went to one but it wasn't it wasn't a major one what the four or five of you uh no that my sisters were all married they were i mean i did spend time and my sisters lived in these grotty old tenements i mean my, my eldest sister, who's now 89. The one who's here? Yeah.

Not the one here, the one back in Scotland. I mean, she lived in two rooms sharing two bathrooms on the stair. Yeah. And that was five people, five flats. Yeah. So I stayed there a lot with her because she and she because she kind of she didn't look out she didn't look after me but i actually what was more important is she looked out for me right rather than after me which was actually at the end of the day yeah exactly more valid were you that would be did you need uh well wait i mean did you were you were the streets

tough i mean was it like a situation where you... No, the school was tough. There were a few murderers, you know, a couple of them. Yeah. You know, there was guys who used to go and, you know, 11-year-old boys used to go and terrorize old people. Right. You know, I mean, it was a lot of thuggery. Was it just a miserable poverty-ridden...

There was an element of poverty. It's something we went, we got quite poor, my mom and I, because she had no money. My dad had died and she had a job. She was a cleaner in a school. I mean, she had a widow's pension, but she wouldn't get that until Friday. And Thursday night, we'd maybe have a tough time of it.

Not every Thursday, but I would occasionally have to go across to the local fish and chip shop and say, you know, could we have some batter bits? Oh, really? Batter bits were the things at the end of the pan. Right, right. And that would be our- After they shake out the fish. Yeah, that's right.

That would be our dinner, you know. Oh, wow. Batter bits. There's a name for it. That's what's disturbing. Yeah, batter bits. Could we have some batter bits? That was a common thing.

It was, I think, more common than people let on that we did it. And they were very good. They used to give us to ourselves. It didn't happen all the time. I mean, I just remember a couple of occasions when it was desperate. So did you finish up school? Well, what happened was I went to, I mean, as I say, the headmaster who came in after the Maris brothers used to make me go for errands.

So I missed a lot of school because I would be down shopping for styluses for his gramophone and doing stuff like that. And no pay for that. No pay, but I could wander off and spend the day doing that. Right, right. And miss school. Which is great. Which is great.

So I'd come back, or the other thing I'd do is I'd go to the cinema. Yeah, oh, yeah. I'd go to the cinema in the afternoon. Right. And I'd sleep back. Or the other thing I'd do is I'd go to the cinema. Yeah. I'd go to the cinema in the afternoon. Right. And I'd sleep right through till the following morning. Really? Yeah. So I used to break out of the cinema at 4 o'clock in the morning.

My sister, my youngest sister, the one who's here, she was my youngest sister. My two eldest sisters eventually created this situation where she could emigrate to Canada when I was about 11. Your youngest sister. Yeah, when I was about 11. She was 21. Yeah, and I was 10. Yeah. So she emigrated. But she was looking after me.

And she was 20. I mean, she was a kid. It was ridiculous looking after this boy. But she would panic because I was missing. So the police were out looking for me. And I'd be running past. 4 o'clock in the morning, I'd be running down the high street in my hometown.

From the cinema. The Greens Playhouse, which is a huge cinema. And I'd break out. I'd find a way of breaking out. I think there was two movies I slept through. One was Hell in Frisco Bay and the other was Giant. Oh, yeah, James Dean, yeah. Yeah, so I kind of slept through.

That's a long one. Yeah, it was very long. It put me to sleep. Anyway, so I'm running down the street, and suddenly there's this, you know the Doctor Who, you know the TARDIS? Yeah. Well, those are all police boxes.

That's what they were originally. So I'm running past, and suddenly this voice comes out. Where are you going, young man? Terrifying me, this thing speaking to me. And the policeman, he wouldn't come out. He just stayed in his box talking to me, saying, we've got to get you home. And eventually he came out and took me home. And your sister was relieved.

Oh, my sister was relieved and somewhat annoyed as well. So anyway, what happened was that I, my school, you know, I didn't, I failed my 11 plus. I went to a very good school. I mean, it was a Catholic, secondary modern school. It wasn't a very good school. It was okay. Yeah. And, but I, there was a couple of guys, there was

a couple of teachers there who could see that I was a fish out of water. And they knew that this was, this was, I was a tricky kid. Yeah. But I had, you know, I had wit and I had humor and out of water. And they knew that I was a tricky kid. Yeah. But I had wit and I had humor and- Glass clown. And all that.

And they really liked me. Yeah. And they looked after me. They looked out for me again. Yeah. I was being looked out for. Right. Not necessarily looked after, but looked out for.

So they encouraged me. And I did little plays and stuff like that. And then I got, then by sheer stroke of good luck, a guy called Bill Dewar, who was one of these guys who came after me, he had a student who had been working at the local repertory, the Dundee Rep, which was a pretty powerful rep throughout the country. It was people where a lot of actors, Glenda Jackson started there and people like that, Nicol Williamson.

And this kid called Frank McGrath, he was leaving. He was going to drama school. So his job was available. And his job was basically taking assistant to the secretary and taking money to the bank every morning. Another messenger job. Another messenger job every morning, which is another messenger job, another messenger job or, uh,

yeah, which I did took it to the British London bank used to take the takings and they were pitiful from the theater, from the theater and mop, you know, cleaning the stage, but you were in, I was in,

yeah. And I used to mop the stage at the end of the day. And then I graduated to doing scene shifting. But you could watch all the shows. I could watch everything. And were you doing that? Yeah. I was loving it.

It was great. I mean, I'd been, you know, my thing had been movies because I used to spend, you know, we had double features and we had, in my hometown, we had 21 cinemas. They were trying to keep you off the streets. Yeah. And they were great. You know, and it was a double feature. You're going at six, you get off the streets. Yeah, and they were great. It was a double feature. You're going at 6, you get out at 11.

And it was a three-day program, so I could see as many as eight movies in a week. And that was your thing? That was my thing. Now, did you feel like you wanted to be in movies? Yeah, all the time. That's what I did. I acted in movies.

And who were your favorite guys? I veered from Jerry Lewis to Marlon Brandolon brando oh yeah i had a full spectrum i had a range you know i developed an early range yeah so it was a great time it was it was you know it was blissful i mean so you move up from sweeping and and and taking money to the bank to setting up scenery and and stage managing i was the worst stage manager ever i mean it was terrible and you were learning all this just by paying attention to whoever was there. Yeah, by paying attention

and people were, you know, people, you know, people liked me. And you're under 20 at this point. I was 15. Wow. I was 15.

So when do you get your big break? Well, what happened was there was, you know, and I was, you know, I was sort of, I kept my eye open on stuff

about actors that came out of the various institutions, you know, and I... You're aware of it. I was aware of it. kept my eye open on stuff about actors that came out of the various institutions. You're aware of it. I was aware of it. This guy's from here. He's a big shot. He's a RADA guy.

He's a central school guy. Oh, really? What were the differences? Well, there was just a difference in- What's RADA? A Royal- Well, the RADA was, there was a bit of entitlement that went on. What does that stand for?

Royal Academy of Music. Yeah, yeah. Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. Okay. And there was this other school called Lambda called the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. And there was a Canadian guy who actually became famous later on as the smoking man in the X-Files. Oh, okay. Called Davis. Yeah. And he was this young 24 year old director who directed in the company. And there's some very good, I mean, in Dundee. Yeah. And, uh, he was very, you know, he, he, I mean, he invited me to a voice lesson and I thought, what? He said, come, we're having a voice lesson. I didn't even know what, I mean, I had no idea what a voice

lesson was. And there's this woman who was there who came, and she became quite famous as a voice teacher. But she was this young 24-year-old woman, and she's now gone home. She comes from Orkney in Scotland, and she's gone back. Her name was Kristen Linklater. And I thought, I want to go where she is.

And, of course, as soon as I got into Lambda, I was 17, she left, I got off to America, she came here. Oh really, to work? Yeah, to work. And lived here for 40 years. Doing voice work? Teaching at Columbia, teaching, she started a theater company called Shakespeare & Company up in the Berkshires, you know, in Massachusetts.

So when you're watching all these people come in, in the Berkshires, you know, in Massachusetts. So when you're watching all these people come in, you can tell the difference in their styles? Yeah. From the institutions they were part of? Yeah, and I could tell, you know, and the Lambda actors were always a little more thorough just in terms of their prep. So the Royal Academy, they were a little entitled?

They were a little entitled they're not entitled and talented yeah but it was there was no structure to them there was I mean that's that's unfair there probably was a structure to them but the lambda thing was because it was thorough you said much more thorough and it was very influenced it turned out that I realized later it was very interest by influenced by a man called Sanford Meisner. Sure, yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. And that was what was employed.

That was what I learned when I went to school. So it's not a classical training. Yeah, well, it is a classical training in one sense because you're doing classical stuff, but you're using subject, verb, and object. I mean, the thing about it was I learned to read at drama school. I learned how to go subject, verb, and object. I mean, the thing about it was I learned to read at drama school. I learned how to go subject, verb, and object. What is the subject? What is the object?

What is the intention? And then you transferred that to niceness technique. Why am I doing? What am I doing? Where am I going? And it kind of fitted perfectly. Well, there's a great teacher who's passed now called Vivian Matalon. And Vivian was there.

He was this very kind of- At Lambda. At Lambda. Yeah. And a great influence who's passed now called Vivian Matalon. And Vivian was there. He was this very kind of. At Lambda. At Lambda. Yeah. And a great influence. Yeah. So I had a very good time there. You were there when you were 17?

17, yeah. So you would now. I get the sense, like, who have I talked to? I've talked to, like, Ian McKellen. Yeah. You know, about Shakespeare. I don't, like, I'm not a Shakespeare guy, which makes me feel small. No, no, no, you mustn't feel that.

And like, you know, and he, and I don't, I'm not well-versed at all, and he did it to my face. He did Shakespeare right to my face, and I got it, you know, but. It wasn't too unfortunate? No, no, no. It was amazing to see a Shakespearean actor

do it so you understand it. I think that's people like me who grow up watching Sam Shepard plays or whatever the hell, American theater, a little bit. The language is hard. Yeah, yeah. And it takes a type of vigilance I don't have. Yeah. Now, I always assume that people from the UK or who train there are immediately doing Shakespeare well we do Shakespeare because it's he's he's uh you know and he's the master of the English language yeah

yeah and he's a great playwright but what I was thinking though before you came over here is that you even dealing with somebody like the new character like Logan Roy right on succession which is great that that it struck me that as you go through the catalog or the, whatever they call it, the entire Shakespearean- Your canon. Your canon, that there was a lesson to be learned both emotionally, theatrically, linguistically,

in almost every page. Yeah, I mean, I was lucky, and I've been lucky in relationship to Logan because 30 years ago, in my 40s, I did with McKellen, funny enough, we did this tour of Richard III, which he played Richard III and King Lear, which I played King Lear. And he played Kent, I played the Duke of Buckingham with him. And we did this tour, and, you know, that was exhausting because it's such an exhausting part, Leo. And it's very interesting because you, you know...

And you're young to do it at that point. Yeah, I was young to do it, but I'd had a success doing a little play which is not very often done in Shakespeare because it's a tough one. But I kind of made it my own and that was Titus Andronicus. That's like the big bloody play, right? Yeah, that's right. But it's blackly funny. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's really, and that was the thing I went for because again, my humorous thing. I went for this kind of black, but I learned, you learn on the job. Why is it not done that much? Well, because people get it wrong.

They don't understand the ludicrous nature of it. What is the plot of it? Well, the plot is that this Roman general returns from the war to find that the state of Rome is in a bit of a state of flux. Yeah. There's a guy who's now taken over who's not very responsible. And there are these Goths are brought on, and he's going to marry one of the Goth women. And this soldier, he's an old soldier, he's lost most of his kids to the idea of Rome. And the idea of Rome becomes suddenly wanting.

And he's left in a kind of state of like Hamlet you know and when you look at the plays you look at the later plays you see the entire Santana because it's all the tryout stuff yeah he tried out a lot of the ideas okay yeah Hamlet's madness fake madness he tries out and you know the the Iago, he tries out. The Othello figure, he tries out. So all of that's tried out in that play. And it's raw and rough and ready. So it's emotionally, mentally raw. Yeah. And it's hugely funny if you allow it to be. Now, a lot of times when Brooke did it,

he curtailed the humor because he felt the humor was... Brooke? Yeah, Peter Brooke. Okay. Yeah, he felt the humor was detrimental. But actually, it's the opposite. The humor to me is what... Because I think life is ludicrous. I don't think life is... I don't think it's tragic or funny. I just think it's ludicrous. And the older I get... You personally? Oh, yeah. And the older I get- You personally? Oh, yeah. And the older I get, the more, I mean, I think the human experiment is extremely disappointing. Yeah. There is a problem with the ending. Yeah, there is. There's no validity to it. So I have a real problem with it. But of course,

it serves me as a creative- Well, sure. I mean, I think that is the void that Shakespeare sought to fill. That's right. Well, Logan Roy fills it brilliantly. Right. Because Logan Roy is, you know, everybody says he's right-wing. Yeah, he's right-wing.

But he's a nihilist. Right. Secretly, he's a nihilist. He wants to burn it all down. He wants to burn it all down because he doesn't believe any of it. Yeah. And particularly his own children. He says, they're fucked.

These children are fucked. I mean, you particularly his own children he says they're fucked these children are fucked i mean you know and uh and of course they're fucked and i've i'm responsible but fuck them right well it's interesting that you know when you really think about it that is it's not even really about power i guess that seems to be what it's about but but it is about uh it was there's just this eternal sort of uh you know i guess existential darkness and nihilism that's right the core of all an absence of principle yeah and principle just gets in the way well what we're learning now is that that that that that most structures that we thought were there to uh protect us are really just based on like you good are we okay? But there's nothing holding it together. There's no roots to it.

Against immorality. And we're certainly seeing it with our present administration. That's for sure. So, but when you're doing like Titus, which you were known for, right? Yeah. That was your big break theatrically? Yeah, yeah. What year was that?

1987. Yeah. And you've been working a lot all through it. I've done a lot. I mean, I really, really have a very fortunate career. I've worked with a lot of great people like Lindsay Anderson and a wonderful director called Michael Elliott who died far too young. When I was 36, I took over from Pat McGoohan and played Captain Ahab

in an extraordinary production of Moby Dick. So my practice was always for these kind of big-scale things. In theater. In theater. And from Lambda, how long were you there? I was only there because we were such a disastrous year. They didn't do the full three years. I only did two years.

So I was out working. I mean, I got my first job afterwards. I went back up to Scotland, and I was a founder member of the Royal Lyceum Theater Company in 1965. And where you grew up? Well, it's south of where – it's in Edinburgh. Oh, it's in Edinburgh. I grew up in Dundee. So you were part of the beginning of that, and it's still there now? Yeah, it's in Edinburgh. Oh, it's in Edinburgh. I grew up in Dundee. So you were part of the beginning of that and it's still there now?

Yeah, it's still there now. In fact, I did the 50th anniversary of it with my great pal. Have you seen Fleabag? Yeah. Well, do you know the guy who plays the father? Yeah. He's a wonderful actor called Bill Patterson.

Yeah. Bill's a genius actor. Yeah. He's a genius, but he's very west of Scotland. Oh, he's great, yeah. He's very, oh dear, it's all kind of like that. He's all very, oh, I don't know. And he's so brilliant in that show.

So, it's a very funny story. So, I ring him up and I say, Bill, it's the 50th anniversary. He said, oh, what? He said, yes, it's the 50th anniversary of the Lyceum. Oh, that's good, that's good. I said, yeah.

He said, you know, they want to do something. And I've suggested that you and I do Godot together. You play Gogo and I play Didi, the sunny one, and you play the poor me because it's so west of Scotland. He said, oh, that would be interesting. He said, you know, but Brian, I'm worried about my legs. What?

And I said, well, I'm sure we'll be able to deal with your legs. What's the matter with your legs? He's a year older than me, so when we did that, he was in his late 60s. So now because of my newfound success, there's people saying, you know, you want to do theater stuff? And I said, yeah, I'd turn down a few theater things. And then somebody came back with the idea, what about reviving Godot? and I said yeah I'd turn down a few theatre things and then somebody came back with the idea

what about reviving Godot and I said that sounds great five years since we did it we're a bit older you know can I remember the lines so I ring Bill again

and I say Bill he said yeah I said you know we're you know

Godot oh yeah he said well we're thinking about you know maybe reviving oh really oh well I'll look at the lines you know Godot oh yeah they said well we're thinking about you know maybe reviving oh really oh well

I'll look at the lines you know but you know something I'm worried about my legs after five years it's like you're doing the play already yes exactly

exactly he's fantastic he's just fantastic are you going to do it I hope so. It would be great because it was a very, we also did it very Scottish, you know, and we did it, and I'm from the East,

and the East is all light and sun and 24-hour sunlight where everybody goes wacky in a different way. Right. And the West is rain, poor me, you know. And it really manifests itself in the culture? Oh, it does. It does. It's so deep to the culture.

That's so wild, man. Yeah, it's so deep to the culture. When did you start doing film? I started, my first film was in, oh, way back in the early 70s. My first film was Nicholas and Alexandra. Oh, my God. I saw that when I was like too young to see it. Yeah, probably. That's where they, like at the end, they line them all up against the wall. Oh, my God. I saw that when I was too young to see it. Yeah, probably.

That's where they, at the end, they line them all up against the wall. Yeah, they shoot the film. I remember that part of it. Yeah, no, it was pretty horrific, that. And I played Trotsky. God, I'm wondering if you met. Yeah, I kind of can picture that. I can see you as Trotsky.

I played Trotsky. And it was my first film job. How'd you get that? Well, it's funny. It's a very funny, again, a very funny story. So it was Sam Spiegel, the famous Sam Spiegel, the director who produced African Queen. Oh, right.

And he was known as Sam P. Eagle at one point. Right, an old studio guy. He was an old studio guy. He had dancer's legs. I always remember that. He had the legs of a dancer. He was very nifty, but he was quite old. So I was doing a theater job, and I was up country.

And in those days, it took you forever to get to anywhere. So I had to come down to London on several occasions for this part. And I was summoned. I was doing the play, and I was summoned. I was someone how the hell am I gonna get there and get back so I had to get up at something like half past four in the morning get a train to get down then get my interview and then get back right for the seven o'clock show yeah so so I'm and I've done a whole series of meetings with them and so I go down and I was up for I'd been up for Kerensky the part of Kerensky and and he said okay so I came down and they were talking about Trotsky and I so I came down and and I walked in the room and they said what are you doing here and this was

Frank Schaffner we don't want to see you again. I said, oh, I'm sorry. I said, I was just told that. No, no, no, no. We've seen you. We've seen you. It's fine. It's good. It's fine. And I said, what do you mean? He said, it's fine. It's fine. And then Sam Spiegel said, yes, it's fine. You're in the picture. I said, oh. I said, really? He said, yes, you're in the picture. I said, so am I playing Kerensky or Trotsky? He said, Kerensky, Trotsky, you're in the picture. You didn't even know the characters? No, he just said, you're in it. That's it. Did you have a good part?

Yeah, it was a small part. I mean, they gave me these pebble glasses, which I couldn't see out of. So I remember one point when I had to find the handle of the door and I couldn't get out. But then you only did a couple of films then, and then there was a big chunk of time. Yeah, well, the point was, I mean, to be honest with you, I was always motivated by the movies. I mean, that was my thing as a kid. It was movies. And also, it's also to do with my culture. I'm a working class kid from Scotland.

Sure. I'm not English. And none of those English movies, I mean, I love them now, but they meant nothing to me. Right. All those English, Alec Guinness' The Lambert Hill Mob or Doctor films in Doctor in the House and all that, and those terribly, terribly English films. Nothing. But what meant something to me was the Bowery Boys, Jerry Lewis, Spencer Tracy,

because he was a Catholic, so my mother always made me go and see Spencer Tracy. She loved him, huh? She loved Spencer Tracy. And, of course, I love Spencer Tracy as a result. In fact, he's my very favorite actor of all times. And then Brando. Brando and Dean. And seeing them.

And that was the 50s. And it was a fomenting time for me. So that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to do movies. And the theater was like an alien place to me. But you were doing a lot of it. Well, I was. Because that's what we do.

And I worked at the Royal Court and worked with people like Lindsay Anderson. So that was a great influence for me. Well, it's interesting because you were able to integrate some of this, because I had no idea about the kind of infusion of Meisner into any of the schools in Britain. It was. It was, what's the word? It was subliminal. Yeah. You know, very much so. But it was a kind of, it basically taught me how to read.

That's really what I like about it. So, and like, do you find when you do it, like having done so much theater and you've done a lot of Shakespeare, that your approach is, you know, what tools do you sort of rely on to build the character? Well, I just, the internal mechanism, really. I mean, it's who the guy is. I mean, don't worry. I mean, you know, when I was a young guy, I mean, Olivier was around, and, you know, Olivier was just incredibly impressive

because of his audacity. You know, to see Olivier play Othello, which is unheard of now, he couldn't do impressive because of his audacity. To see Olivier play Othello, which is unheard of now, he couldn't do that and get away with it. But it was audacious, and it was fantastic. And then seeing Nicol Williamson, for instance, who's the first actor I ever met because he was having a punch-up as I walked in the stage door for my job.

And you got to see them all work. I got to see them all. I saw them all as a kid. We used to go from school, from drama school, we would go down there to a dress rehearsal and we would turn up and we saw Maggie Smith. I mean, Maggie Smith doing Hay Fever with the great Dame Edith Evans. So that was a phenomenal period in my life. So I really began to love the theater, a phenomenal period in my life. So I really began to love the theater.

But I still had the cinema. And then when I did that cinema, and I held out. I mean, I did a lot of theater. I went off and I learned my job. I learned the job by doing theater. But I always had this thing about the cinema hanging over me. And then I did two plays. One was Moby Dick, which was a big success for me personally and politically. And then I did two plays after that,

which was I did a play called Strange Interlude, which was a Eugene O'Neill play. And that's a long, long play by Eugene O'Neill, which is never done. I did it with Glenda Jackson. And we transferred that to Broadway. Now, in the interim term between transferring that to Broadway, I did another play in London called Rat in the Skull, which was about the Northern Irish conflict, and I played this Protestant guy who turns this Catholic terrorist, and it's a really, really good play. It was a very powerful play. This was 84. So I ended up doing both those plays, but I ended up both going to America, coming here.

So I came to America. I was in my late 30s. And we did them, and they were big successes. And Rat in the Skull was a huge, huge success. And this casting director called Bonnie Timmerman came to see me in it and she she invited me to go and meet her and I met her and she said and she I did an audition and the pal of mine was my other partner in the scene partner in the scene and it was Manhunter yeah Yeah. So she, and she's so eccentric, Bonnie. She said, do you mind?

I don't want to see you. I said, I'm sorry. She said, I don't want to see you. She said, because when I got to the theater, I could only hear your voice because I didn't have my seat properly. I didn't have the proper seat. So could you turn away from the camera?

And I said, well, I've never been asked to turn away, but I said, fine. So I did this, and then, of course, eventually I did turn into the camera. Yeah. And I got the job. You were the first Hannibal Lecter. I was the first Hannibal Lecter.

I remember. Yeah, and I got that job. And that was my calling card. So what happened was I... Who was the killer? Noonan? Tommy Noonan. Tommy Noonan. Tommy Noonan, yeah, fantastic.

It's Dollar Hyde. It's a great movie. It is, yeah. You know, and Michael, man, who's nuts but very talented. And anyway, what happened was that I did that and I was in America and then my marriage,

my first marriage fell apart. And I was sort of on the point of moving to the States but I realized I had these two kids you know I had a teenage son and I had a very young daughter who was very affected by a divorce so I couldn't move I had to stay so I had to get a job. So you're a good father. Pardon? You're a good father. Well, yeah, okay. But I had to get a job. So I got this job at the Royal Shakespeare Company. It's the last place in the world I thought I wanted to go.

I mean, I had worked in the late 70s at the National Theater, and I hadn't enjoyed it. I didn't like Peter Hall. He ran the place? Yeah. I just couldn't get on with him. And he was very good to me, but it never clicked.

So then I finally went to Stratford and I went to the London end. So I started off in London and I did no Shakespeare plays. And then Terry Hands, who ran the company, said, I want you to come up

to the Stratford proper. This was at the Barbican where worthy was the London base and I was working there and he said well come up he said we want to do Titus Andronicus and they have all these directors who wouldn't touch it they didn't want to know and he kept saying certain directors I and I said, I'm nearly 40. I said, I've got nothing. I said, I don't want to play safe. I want to push it.

I want to push the envelope. So what happened is we found this young director, this young female director called Deborah Warner, who had a success with her own company, but the company had gone, you know, and she had lost the grant. Yeah. So we got her in, and she took over and directed,

and then the rest was, you know, that was it. So this interest, so you have this break in movies, but, you know, the family thing, you know, you kind of lived, you manned up to your responsibilities, came back, and then you get brought in to this historical position. That's right. And do this amazing version of this thing. Yeah, that's right.

Turned it inside out. Turned it inside out. And then I stayed on and I went to do the Lear at the Stratford. And I did a lot of touring. We toured. We did a world tour of Lear. We did a tour of Titus before. Now, Lear, like in terms of like, so it's funny because I read somewhere that when you were doing Lector, Hopkins was doing Lear.

When I was doing Lector, Hopkins was doing Lear. When I was doing Lear, he did Hannibal. Are you guys friends? Yeah. We never talk about that, though. Oh, you don't talk about that? Yeah, that's a taboo subject. We never talk about it. Oh, the Lears? The Lears. No, no, no, the Lect though. Oh, you don't talk about that? Yeah, that's a taboo subject. We never talk about it.

Oh, the Lears? The Lears. No, no, no, the Lectors. Oh, the Lectors. We'll talk about the Lear. I mean, I'll gladly talk about the Lear because he got a lot. He had a tough time on Lear. And what is it like?

Because being someone who doesn't know about the nuances of it, there seems to be some analogy to be brought with Logan Roy and Lear, but not really. Not really. I mean, there's an element of... Because Lear has a heart, right? Well, Logan has a heart. It's very deep in his body. Embedded. Embedded. But the thing about Lear is that Lear's giving it all away, But the thing about Lear is that, you know, Lear's giving it all away. And Logan is trying to take it all back.

Right. That, you know, he's not giving it away to anybody. Well, there's that thing. It's like when you say that about nihilism and just this idea because we are living in this world where these older boomers are really, you know, the narcissism is that, you know, if I'm going to end, the world's going to end with me. Well, there's an element of that. Yeah, I think that's true.

I'm not sure of... I'm not sure of... Logan feels he's going to end. I think he's also smarter. Yeah, it's a great character. He's so much smarter than our present POTUS. I mean, because he's such a dumbass. Well, he's one of the guys that runs this type. That's right.

An owner of politicians. That's right. Yeah, yeah. And he does that. I mean, that's what he does. And it's very interesting because you get this kind of thing about people in power and people of wealth.

I look at these latecomers to the democratic race like Thomas Dyne and now Bloomberg. And it was so funny. Bloomberg came to see the show. Oh, I don't know. Which show? Well, I've just been playing Lyndon Johnson. I was the smallest Lyndon Johnson ever, but it was all done with... The one that Cranston opened?

Yeah, well, I did the second play, which I just did on Broadway, called The Great Society, which is really the tragedy. It's the great story of Lyndon falling apart, and Lyndon trying to keep his programs going and dealing with Vietnam, which turns into be the biggest shit show of all time. Right, yeah.

So that was fascinating to do that. And in the process... Bloomberg came? Bloomberg came to see it. And he was very nice, very civilized man. But he was a little bit of a giveaway, which is this thing about power

and this thing about being entitled. And it was a very subtle thing, but he said, we were talking about it, he said, oh yeah, Vietnam. I was very nearly involved in Vietnam. Nearly. It nearly happened. I said, I was on point to become,

of course I would never have become a private. I was on point to become a lieutenant. And I thought that's such an interesting idea, the fact that you can't think of yourself as a private soldier, but you can think of yourself as a lieutenant. So you're already thinking this is your mindset. Yeah. Right.

This is where you're going. And, of course, eventually he didn't go because whatever happened. Sure. I wonder what that story is. We'll find out. We'll find out. But I just, but again, it's this thing of entitlement. Yeah.

You know, and you go, wow they it's so naked and so unconscious well that's the amazing thing about the the way the roys are portrayed because once you when you get the hang of the show you realize like i'm not sure that this is how people really talk but there's a language here that that sort of dances around the emotions of these type of people that's right there's a poetry to the thing that's right it. It's poetic. And it's highly political, too. Yeah, for sure. You know, because that's Jesse. I mean, Jesse is a great, great, you know, modest,

but a real, you know, he writes in satirical terms. I mean, he wrote this great series called The Thick of It, which was done back home. But it's really about power. It is about power. Yeah. But it is interesting that the way you see Logan is this nihilistic vacuum who is playing a game, really, right? That's right.

And I said that. In the first series, I said it's a game. And the kids don't get it. Yeah. They think it's a matter of life. They don't get the fact it's a game. They take it too seriously. They take it too seriously, and they don't get it. And, of course, Logan, like all games. They take it too seriously. They take it too seriously and they don't get it. And of course

Logan, like all games, he takes it really seriously. But they don't get the game. So they can't get on to the game. And of course at the end of the... It's a generational thing. It's a generational thing. But at the end of the last series,

the youngest boy, because he's the eldest of my second family and my heir apparent, Kendall, he's pushed him and pushed him and pushed him. And he's pushed him to such a point that he's actually going to have to make some... It's a great ending. You know, sometimes. It's great. Because he's a proud father.

That is the beat at the end. Yeah. He's a proud father. He says, oh, look, the kid did well. He's going to screw me. Yeah. yeah he's a proud father he says oh look the kid did well he's gonna he's gonna screw me yeah but he's not

right yeah we don't know what's gonna happen we don't know what's gonna happen but he goes come on bring it on

what a great ending finally finally we've got something because he he made such a screw up previously with the

the bear hug you know and all of that such great acting on everyone's part oh I know they're fantastic I mean Jeremy is amazing amazing as as Kendall, you know, and all of that. Such great acting on everyone's part. Oh, I know. They're fantastic. I mean, Jeremy is amazing, amazing as Kendall.

Kalkin's good. Oh, Kalkin's extraordinary. I mean, they're all extraordinary. Matthew McFadgen as Tom. Yeah. You know, I mean. It's too much. And Nick.

And Nick. And then the lovely Sarah. I mean, she's amazing as Sinead. Well, I think what's also great about the show is it's a real ensemble piece. Everyone's working together, you know? It's so much an ensemble piece. And it's so nice to see that,

because, see, that was my question, is with all this drive early on in your career to do film, there's really nothing more boring than film acting. No, no, no. Exactly. I mean, that's why I have to get back into the theater. Right, and this show seems like at least there are scenes where it's like you're doing it.

Yeah, that's right. You know, like with doing films in my limited experience of it, it's all bits and pieces, and you can't really get going. No, you see, that's what they do wonderfully well, the writers and the directors. Of succession. Of succession. They let scenes run.

So you can play them through. So all the big scenes are played one or two times, but we play them through. Yeah. So we play it like theatrical pieces. Oh, that's great. Well, at least you get to stretch out a little bit. Yeah, yeah. You do the job, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's very gratifying and it seems like it's weird because when i saw you in succession like i've i've i've seen one maybe one of the born movies but you know you got a good gig with that right yeah and and but i remember you from like adaptation was the first time where i was sort of like who the fuck is that guy yeah yeah how'd you like working with kaufman with that with his script it was fantastic right i mean fantastic i mean it was and of course spike jones movie and spike yeah you know and spike is just great i mean i did her as well the the movie about uh that uh you know the which one oh yeah her yeah absolutely yeah yeah that's great that's's great. Who were you in that? I played Alan Watts. Oh, yeah.

Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A real guy. And the adaptation guy was kind of a real guy. Well, yeah. He was Bob McKee. Yeah. And Bob McKee, I know.

I mean, it was Bob McKee that got me the job because they were suggesting, oh, yeah. They said, what about Michael Caine? He went, I don't think so. Yeah. Right. He said, I know who should play it. Because he'd seen me do, I did Skylight, the play Skylight at the Mark Taper here.

Yeah, here. That's a nice theater, huh? Yeah, it's a lovely theater. And he came. He doesn't like David Hare, but he said, well, I liked you. Yeah. So he, and he's become a friend over the years. And yeah, he suggested, you you know me for that part and i

and i knew because one of the great things when i decided it was a decision i made in the 90s yeah having had a you know pretty good career i still wanted to do movies yeah you make good choices though you're braveheart you were great that's right yeah the thing about it was that you know in england or britain i'm sure it's an english thing but yeah there's this sort of strata you great. That's right. The thing about it was that, you know, in England or Britain, it's an English thing, but there's this sort of strata. You go, oh, I'm doing that. And I went, I don't believe in any of that nonsense.

If the part works, the part works. I mean, I have played one of the most successful roles ever, which is Manhunter, and he's only on the screen for 10 minutes. And it's the less you do, the more you're wanted. People go, oh, who's that guy? And then when is he coming back?

Oh, he's got, oh, he's got, oh, that. And that's so exciting. So when I decided in, and it was Michael Powell, I read Michael Powell, he wrote, who's a great filmmaker, and he said in his biography, he said, in movies there are no big parts and small parts. He said there are only long parts and short parts. Yeah. You're on the movie for a long time or a short time, but you get, you know, you get the focus.

Yeah. For that day, you know, the day player, which is the hardest thing to be in movies. Yeah. You get that focus. Yeah. Sometimes it's too much because you have to deliver because you've only got a day. But I thought that was a very good angle to me

to restart my career in the mid-'90s here because I moved here. I just decided that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be a character actor in movies. And I remember having this discussion with the late Nigel, Christ's name's go. He was a very famous, actually South African, but known as an English actor who did this TV series, which was very successful. And he'd just done a film with

Sly Stallone. And I met him on a plane. And he was going, he said, I can't do that. He said, I can't play those parts anymore. I mean, I'm a leading actor. And I said, you know, Nigel, I said, forgive me for saying this, but that's absolute bollocks. Yeah. I said, you know, you've just worked with Sly Stallone. I worked with Steven Seagal, for Christ's sake. Yeah. Just imagine what that was like.

Yeah. And it was fine. Right. Because you just learned to do the job. Right. I said, and it's, you know, it really is. Where'd you work with Seagal? Pardon?

Where were you in? Oh, it was a thing called Glimmer Man. Uh-huh. And he's such a, you know, we haven't got enough time to talk about him. I mean, actually, he's very complex. He's actually, there's something very sweet about Stephen, which I'm, you know. But anyway. So anyway, so I said to Nigel, I said,

look, it doesn't really matter. You go in and when I first came to Hollywood in the mid-90s, I saw careers like Andy Garcia and Michael Keaton, who are magnificent actors. But I saw them all being judged by that opening weekend. Right. Trying to get the film past the opening weekend. They got to pull the people in. They got to pull the people in. And I did a film called Desperate Measures, which was well-named. Yeah. Desperate Measures. And that was Michael and Andy.

And it was a big break. Yeah. And there were big earners. And after that, their careers went in a very odd way. Yeah. Because of the onus that was on them to, you know. To sell tickets. You know, and I just thought, I don't want to be in that position.

Oh, fuck that. I never want to be in that position. I just want to keep working. It's not on you. Yeah. And actually, television is much kinder that way. Yeah. Because television, you know, television because you can stream it, you can do it, you know,

and it's, in a way, it's much more of an egalitarian process too. Well, now there's, and also the outlets are there. That's right. And it really seems that if you're given the right environment now, you can make a great thing. That's right. And people will come to it. Like I, you know, I, after the first season of Succession, I'd heard some about it. But, you know,

it's one of those things where it's like you've got to be a real, like when you start, when you get the hang of that show, how are you not going to fucking watch it?

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And then you've got a good gig for at least four or five seasons. Yeah. Right?

Health coverage. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah, yeah. They can kill me off any minute. Well, yeah, I think you got,

no, I don't think so. Not yet. Not yet. But also, like, you know, doing the movies like, you were, was it a Spike Lee film? Was it 20,

was it 25? 25th Hour. Yeah, that was a sweet part. That was a wonderful film. Right? And you work with, and you work with these, as a support,

you know, you get to really do great acting on your own, but also work with these, you know, heavy hitters to really do great acting on your own but also work with these you know heavy hitters like in the boxer i mean that was not right yeah yeah no i've been very lucky that way and and the parts have served me well you know yeah i there's not one single role even in lie that was heavy oh lie well lie was a very amazing film i mean so you when you look for these projects even even if they're smaller movies,

when you read the scripts or when you get offered them, how do you make the decision to play a guy who's this kind of complex pedophile who's a sympathetic character, right? Yeah, and again, that's the sort of thing

where people said, you've got to watch it. You've got to watch it with that role because you don't want to get identified. I never get identified with any role just because I keep moving. The thing about it is don't stop. Don't stand still.

Be a moving target. Yeah, and also as a character actor and as somebody that has the chops that you do, it's not, you know, to not be a movie star and have everything be related back through who you really are, that's a gift to be able to just sort of transform. That's right.

And it's also what I call acting. It's what to me is the essence of acting. That's the job. The job is to be different people. And I've been very lucky that way. I mean, LIE was a great example of something which hit a nerve and people went, wow, that's an extraordinary thing to do. And I've been very blessed.

It's been frustrating. My wife feels sometimes, oh, you don't get the credit you deserve, but she's changed her mind recently. Well, no, I mean, it is sort of an exciting thing that you have this amazing body of work and that people will, you're one of those people where once you start telling them the movies, they're like, oh, yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. But that's the plight of the character actor. But that's also the joy of it. Sure. The joy of it is that they go, oh, of course. Right. You know, you go, wow, you know. You're that good.

You're not associated with you, but with the characters. That's right. That's right. And that's the bliss of it. Yeah. So with this, though, what I'm finding interesting is that this character of Logan Roy sort of speaks to your roots somehow. Yeah. Not until talking to you do I realize when you're walking through Scotland, going through.

Well, that was what happened. You see, that was the other thing that happened, which was so extraordinary. So in the first season, right at the very beginning, right to my first conversation with Adam McKay, who was directing the pilot, and Jesse. Yeah. And I suggested at that point, I said,

you know, I could play this character, Scots. I said, it might be interesting. Yeah. And Jesse said, no, I want an you know, I could play this character, Scots. I said, it might be interesting. And Jesse said, no, I want an American. He's got to be an American. He has to have an American voice. Adam McKay was a bit more, he was a bit more inclined that way. And I said, okay, I'll play an American. So I ended up initially playing, not American, but I played, well, I didn't know that, but until I, I mean, I, I played a Canadian. He was Canadian and he was born in Quebec. So in the first episode, the first episode, there's this big birthday party and they celebrate my birthday. And he says, born in Quebec, Canada. Well, episode nine, I've done nine episodes and I'm, you know, Episode nine, I've done nine episodes, and I'm doing my stuff and doing my shit and what have you.

And suddenly, Peter Friedman, who's playing Frank, who I keep firing and rehiring, he comes in and says, you know, I've just done some ADR on the show. He said, they've changed your birthplace. I said, what do you mean they've changed my birthplace? He said, you're no longer born in Quebec. I said, what do you mean I'm no longer born in Quebec? He said, what do you mean they've changed my birthplace? He said, you're no longer born in Quebec. I said, what do you mean I'm no longer born in Quebec? He said, no. He said, you're born. He said, I can't remember where you're born.

He said, let me look it up. And he goes like this. Oh, he said, yeah, you're born in somewhere called Dundee, Scotland. I said, that's where I'm born. That's where I come from. And I went, what? You know, I was kind of completely nonplussed by it. Why would they have told you?

And I went up to him and I went up to Jesse and I said, Jesse, what is this? Oh, he said, we thought it'd be a little surprise. I said, it's a hell of a surprise. You know, I've just recorded nine episodes. And of course, in the second season, we do an episode. Of course, I'm now my favorite son of my hometown because we did an episode called Dundee, which not a lot of people had heard about the place. Right, yeah, yeah. And we filmed in the beautiful view. Oh, so now you are. You're actually, now you're the favorite son now.

That's it. And of course, it was very odd to go back to Dundee. I mean, I go back to Dundee on a regular basis, but not in such a public way. Yeah. So to go back to Dundee on a regular basis, but not in such a public way. Yeah. So to go back to Dundee and play Logan, who has these bad memories for him. And, of course, I have mixed memories about Dundee.

On the whole, my memories are quite good. I mean, I had a very blissful childhood until the point my dad died. I mean, it was fine. And then it was tough. It was tough. But I still have such admiration for the people of my hometown because they've been shat on from Winston Churchill onwards. They've been shat on. But they've survived and they've built this rather beautiful thing now. Which is, I mean, they still have the biggest heroin addiction in Scotland.

Oh, it's a problem, huh? The fifth generation. I mean, it's in Scotland. Oh, it's a problem, huh? The fifth generation. I mean, it's really bad. Oh, that's terrible. But anyway, the town is getting some focus. It's getting some attention. Yeah. So I'm going back, and I'm doing all this Logan Roy stuff.

And Danny Houston, who's a lovely man, he comes up to me. I've interviewed him. He's a good guy. Oh, he's a great guy. Yeah, yeah. He's a great guy, tremendous guy. And he said, well good guy. Oh, he's a great guy. Yeah, yeah. He's a great guy. Tremendous guy. And he said, well, never mind old Logan Roy.

He said, what about you? I said, what do you mean, what about you? He said, well, let's do you. I said, what? He said, well, I want to see where you, your background. I want to see where you went to school. So I got a bus, and it was about four or five of the cast came, and I took them around my memory lane. So it's so odd in a way that that has come to me in a sense.

And it's kind of bizarre, actually. There's something really bizarre about it, but there is a sort of closing the circle in a way, which is kind of odd. Yeah, and also I think the opportunity to sort of inform the character with that much of your real memory, but having the character have gone a very different way. That's right, that's right.

It's got to be sort of interesting. Yeah, it is. It is interesting because you go, you know, I mean, the whole Logan thing, I mean, just his language, his cursing, I mean, which is just... They're all doing it. I know.

I get people coming up to me in the theater. People would come up, you know, I would come out of the stage door and these kids, you know, teenage boyfriend and girlfriend would say, could you tell us to fuck off, please? Yeah, I'll fuck off. And I'm going, what? Can I film you saying fuck off? And I went, fuck off.

But the worst, the worst, the funniest was I went, I did this movie with the lovely Rosanna Arquette. And she's, you know, she's quite political, Rosanna. She said, would you come to a, we're having a Me Too, we're doing a book launch for Ronan Farrow, and I said, well, I'd love to come. I really admire what he's done, and he particularly, he helped a friend of mine who had a thing with Moonves, so he was very, very, you know, he's given her a lot of stuff that she'd lost in terms of her own self-respect. And so I thanked him.

And at the end of it, and then suddenly I was surrounded by all these women. And they were coming up to me and going, and not all of them, but a couple of them were quietly saying, could you tell me to fuck off? And I'm going, is this wholly appropriate in a Me Too event? And then it just goes back to full circle to how disappointing human beings are. They can't hold on to anything for five minutes. That's right. The ludicrous nature. The ludicrous nature. So what does it mean to be a CVE? A command of the, well, there's another word for it. A sea of the British Empire.

It's something that I did. Is it an honor? Is it given to you? It's an honor. No, the Queen, they recommend you get it. They recommend you get it? Yeah. The Queen does. They recommend it to the Queen.

But you're not a knight. No, I'm not a knight. I'm not sir. I'll never be sir because I, I mean, I did it at a time when I should have thought better, but I accepted it because I'm fickle. Well, also, like, it's weird that, you know, that shit runs deep, man. I know. That's the problem.

Intellectually, you can think whatever you want about politics, but, like, when the queen offers you something, you're like, man. I know. That's the problem. Intellectually, you can think whatever you want about politics, but when the queen offers you something, you're like, okay. You know, this is the thing. I mean, it's like this big weekend coming up with the Golden Globes. You know, you're going,

ah, come on. Yeah, really? And then you go, oh, this is nice. You know, you're caught on the horns of a horrible dilemma because you really think it, this is nice. You know, you're caught on the horns of a horrible dilemma because you really think it does your head in. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking all the time,

thinking, this is uncomfortable. Like the Golden Globes being nominated? It's uncomfortable because I'm having to deal with my own greed and my own, you know, my own. You want to be humble. I want to be humble at the same time. You know, you're caught on the horns of a horrible dilemma. Is that a shakespeare line no i just made it up i like it it sounds like a shakespeare line doesn't it but it yeah it's probably influenced by that but it's true you

know it's a very hard thing and so when i became a cbe you know i keep my excuse was i i have a royalist sister and i have a republican sister so I thought well my royalist sister will be happy for that. And what does it mean? She can give a shit. Yeah she doesn't care. But that was my justification. Yeah for you the rationalization for you. But now I would seriously think about becoming a knight.

I wouldn't want to do that. Yeah. What does it entitle you to? Nothing. Nothing. I think you can get married somewhere like St. Paul's Cathedral or something. Or you maybe can get married somewhere like St. Paul's Cathedral or you maybe can get buried. What does it recognize? It recognizes your service to the arts. I mean, that's what it recognizes. I mean, I'm recognized for my service to the arts. And CBE is usually a precursor to getting a knighthood. Well, I got my CBE a while ago. And

because I've been so active in Scottish independence even though we are determined to do well they are determined to keep their Queen you know she's still she goes with the whole nine yards I mean we don't get rid of her yeah anyway that's another question but so like even if you do you know you back Scotland, you keep the Queen. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, she has a house in Balmoral. And also, she is partly Scottish.

She is half Scottish. I mean, she comes from one of the oldest families, the Bowes Lions, which is her mother. So it's complicated. Yeah, it's complicated. But even so, you know, it will never be a proper republic. Right. Yeah, because it's mired in. Well, that's the thing.

It's like so many things, it seems, even in this country about, you know, what has just become accepted that, you know, I don't think any of these, like Scotland's not prepared to go to war. No, no. We can't go to war. We get beaten very badly. I know. So, all right. So the globes are, when are they? Are they tomorrow? Tomorrow. We get beaten very badly. So the Globes, when are they? Are they tomorrow?

Tomorrow. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you got tux and everything? You ready to go? Yeah, I've got all the crap that you have to put on. Well, it should be a good night. You like Ricky Gervais?

Yeah. I mean, he's a bit home counties for me. What does that mean? Well, he's English. Yeah, right. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't mind that. I mean, I love a lot of English humor.

I don't know what to do with him sometimes. It seems like a gimmick. You know, he's a gimmick now. Yeah, it is. It's odd. You know, I mean, he created this amazing thing called The Office. Great. And it was astonishing.

Great. Astonishing work. And then it was kind of hard to know where he went. I mean, I thought Extras actually was even better. I loved Extras. I thought Extras was a great show. It was good, yeah. And I think he's a talented man, but I think he has, I think he's got a few demons.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting to me that somehow or another, did you manage to avoid the demons? You don't seem to, you're not a boozy guy? No. I mean, you know, when you grow up the way I grew up and you saw so many demons around you you're very happy to get rid of that's one i guess that's one way to go yeah to not succumb to be like a lesson learned

yeah the lesson i was i i'm very blessed yeah because i saw and i saw you know i i went to school with some of the guys who were really psychotic. From booze or just in general? Pardon? From booze or just in general? Oh, no, these were kids. Oh, right. I mean, I'm talking about 10-year-olds. And there's nothing more psychotic than a psychotic 10-year-old.

And they're scary. Yeah. Because they have no, there's no moral kind of. No lessons learned. No, no. So they're just fucking... They just, they do. I mean,

and they used to do some horrible things. Kill cats and whatnot. Oh, yeah. And terrorize old people. That was the other thing which was pretty horrible. Yes.

Well, I'm glad that you missed that. Yeah, I'm glad I missed that. So that was, you know, that was, I think my growing up and, you know,

there's nothing, there's nothing more cruel than the school playground. Oh, yeah. you know, that was, I think, my growing up. And, you know, there's nothing more cruel than the school playground. Oh, yeah. You know, there's nothing more cruel than that. And it turns out, like, judging by our president, that it can last well into your 70s. Yeah, exactly. Well, exactly. It never has to stop.

No, no. I mean, I think he's classically an abused child. Classically. Or an abandoned one somehow. An abandoned as well. Abandoned and and abused you know and i and that way i have a i have a certain empathy only a certain but i have an empathy for him in that one i guess empathy is healthy in in all cases i think so i i think we've got

to understand you know we have this great expression in scotland called we're all we're all jock thompson's burns what does that mean it's it's mean? Jock Tamsin is like him. Yeah. And Burns, that we're all his kids. Yeah. So we're all born under the sun. We're all the same. Yeah.

And I kind of believe that to a certain extent. Yeah. It's what you make of it, and it's what you don't make of it. Sure. And I think that that's, you know, everything is up for grabs after that. Yeah. But fundamentally, and that's a thing about, I mean, sometimes it goes too far in Scotland, you know. My mother's

greatest praise would be oh, that was quite nice. Yeah, right. You go, can I just have a little bit more? That's it. That's it. But that was it. You know, but that keeps you level. It keeps you down. It keeps you humble. It's a bit puritanical, but it does work.

Yeah. And it also guarantees that you never feel quite great. No, you never feel quite great. Always humbled. If she's not going to do it, you'll do it to yourself. Exactly, exactly. And of course, it means the chip on your shoulder just gets bigger. Yeah, because you deserve it.

You deserve it. And it's a healthy chip to carry great talking to you man it's lovely talking to you thanks for coming you're welcome what a great guy what a great actor what a great conversation remember uh succession on hbo it's been renewed go catch up It's really satisfying. And he did just win the Golden Globe for his performance in that show. And don't forget,

watch me tomorrow night on Finding Your Roots. Also, go to WTFpod.com slash tour for the upcoming tour dates in the cities I mentioned earlier. I could mention them again. Would you like me to?

Cleveland, Grand Rapids, Milwaukee, Orlando, Tampa, Portland, Maine, Providence, New Haven, Huntington, New York. Now I will play three chords for you and I'm making you a promise out loud. So I have a witness and it's on the record.

I'm going to learn some new chord progressions and I'm going to bring them here, but not today. Thank you. boomer lives Boomer lives. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock

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