WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1101 - Carol Kane

Episode Date: February 27, 2020

Show business paid off early for Carol Kane. She was in her first movie at age 17 and got an unexpected Academy Award nomination for Best Actress when she was 23. Carol tells Marc what it was like to break into the business working with directors like Mike Nichols, Hal Ashby and Sidney Lumet, and develop friendships with co-stars like Jack Nicholson, Diane Keaton and Ellen Burstyn. They also discuss her roles in beloved projects like Taxi, The Princess Bride and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, as well as her new series with Al Pacino called Hunters. This episode is sponsored by Dave on FXX and SimpliSafe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life when I die here you'll never leave

Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it.

I'm all jacked up. I'm back on the JustCoffee.coop coffee that they send me every month. I'm still drinking tea in the morning, but it sort of crept in, man. Me and Dino on the road just jacking up on that Dunkin' coffee because I feel like I have to when I'm back east. And God damn it it I got lit up I'm finally coming down from our trip man and Sunday night we did the last of the tour that turned out to be beautiful weather-wise but the last night at the Paramount was just a what a great way to go out what a great crowd there in Huntington New New York. And ran into my buddy Dave Mannheim from the Dopey podcast.

He accosted me on the street, not unlike he does. And he's like, come on, what are you guys doing? You want to eat? And we're like, yeah, sure. And we go to the restaurant across from the joint there. And we had dinner with Mannheim and his wife. And I don't know if you listen to Dopey, but he basically interviews uh

recovering drug addicts good stories dino's got uh got his thing going on let there be talk and we uh we were doing some of those uh ig live ig things people seem to like them me and dean have a good time i just want to thank all the audiences again for coming out. And that last show at the Paramount in Huntington was just really fucking amazing. Special night. Great show. Great way to put to rest that material that I've been working on for a couple of years. You can see the trailer for my special End Times Fun. March 10th it drops.

I posted that on my Twitter. It's at Mark Maron. And also on my Instagram at Mark Maron. The trailer came out good. Looks good. Looks different than other specials. Good material choices. Nice

edit job. Wearing my vest that I think I probably am only going to wear once on that special the fuck is wrong with me man i think it looks good i love the thing but like why do i do that man in my entire i finally got away from wearing new shit on tv and then i do this new special i'm like I'm gonna wear this vest and my uh no collar shirt but uh I'm very excited about this special coming out I think it's um it's a very fitting special for the times we live in for me shot beautifully by Lynn Shelton in an intimate space black box theater the Red Cat Theater downtown Los Angeles for a couple of hundred folks.

It's got a very personal, intimate vibe. Coming in close on the face, which is unlike a lot of specials. We're in the face. Getting intimate. Today on the show, Carol Kane joins me, who I love and have loved for years. Carol Kane has done some amazing work. Currently she's in this show about the Nazis. She's in Hunters with Al Pacino. All episodes are streaming on Amazon now. But Carol Kane was also in The Last Detail with Jack Nicholson. And she was great in that.

She was in Annie Hall. Spectacular. Hester Street. Terrific. She's been around a lot. And she shot movies back in the day with some of the greats. And we just got kind of nostalgic and reflective about stuff about people it was a a beautiful conversation you're about to uh to witness it was beautiful

how you guys doing everybody all right you get that thing taken care of everybody good been edgy though man just i just your monkey is declining i don't know if I can take it. You know, his sister passed a few months ago, passed with my help. And now her brother monkey is getting weak, man. He's getting weak. I don't know what's up. I got to bring him back to the vet. And I'm angry because I don't want to experience my grief. I got to put down two cats inside six months, brother and sister, the ones I've had for 15 years, 16 years. It's fucking brutal, man. And I'm just mad. I'm mad at monkey for getting old. And you know, I gotta, I gotta let go of it, let go of the anger and, you know, open up, man, open up this part of life. It's sad's sad but i just like it's just hanging over me i know

it's gonna it's only a matter of time i'm trying to keep him around he's okay he's still he's just like spaced out and weird he's a little old man he's fragile and he's wearing out but he's still a loving little guy so i'm trying to be cool i'm home for the duration now we're going to be starting up glow got to get my haircut got to turn into sam sylvia so i'll be around for monkey i'll be around for glow i'll be around to do some stand-up around town be around to sort of fix up my house and get this studio in shape but it's hard man it's hard to accept that you know that he's fucking sick so listen a lot of you have been mailing in your text stories and i'll try to like i'm going through them slowly but i i got a couple

here about the texting the wrong person stories i like these they're great hey mark with a k i guess he means me the following is a 100 true account of how i accidentally sent my conservative 75 year old mom a text suggesting you know what i'm not going to spoil it so i'm going to leave that there and just go here i'll explain he says one night a few years back i'm hanging out with andrew and a couple other buddies oh andrew right of course having a few drinks etc when we wound up in a riveting conversation about masturbation specifically masturbation material at some point i proclaimed truthfully that i never in my life jerked off to print porn magazine, still pictures, et cetera, but only to porn videos

and probably 35 millimeter films going way back to my early teens in the early 80s. It's a lot of details, pal. A lot of details. Big drunken conversation ensues. Everyone weighed in detailing and expounding the pros and cons of both etc later that night after having gone my separate ways from andrew and the gang i received a text from my mom who had just returned home from a week of babysitting my three-year-old niece attached in her text to me was a cute pic of my cute little niece quote great visit great to be home we're exhausted what are you up to she asks just as i'm about to reply to my mom andrew texts in hey what are you doing to which i reply as i call back from our

earlier conversation just jerking off to a still photo not bad actually had no idea what i was was missing send oh yep sent that above text to my mom in reply to her inquiry re what i'm up to and the attached picture of my three-year-old niece wow wow of course my first inclination was to smash my phone into the wall to try and cancel it. But my stunned disbelief turned into mortification very quickly when the delivered message dissolved into the dreaded red. And that was that permanent damage to my mother's perception of her son, simply because I didn't have the wherewithal to just tap Andrew's incoming text before replying to him and thus texting her instead. So after briefly considering moving to Australia and just disappearing, I called mom. And while I did my very best to

explain the misunderstanding that I'm actually not an incestuous pedophile, but just an inebriated guy trying to be funny, she awkwardly claimed to believe me. And we've never spoken of it since. But I'd be lying if I said she doesn't look at me differently now. Honestly, I can't even recount this anecdote without physically cringing. Wow, man. Thank you, Dan. He also said, P.S., if you'd be so kind to disclose to me the shitty guy who stood you up and fucked you over leading to your accident, I'd be grateful. I can't do it, man.

But thank you for your horrifying fucking little experience there that was a good one man that was top notch top notch fucking horror story of the shitty texting episode yes i enjoyed that so look i come up with a new character that I'm going to work on, maybe on stage, because I'm feeling angry. And when I get like this, when I get incredibly uncomfortable in my body, I want to lash out, man. I want to fucking lash out. Why don't you meditate?

I don't. I do have to get out. I haven't been able to exercise. I worked out this morning, but maybe I'll get back on track with track with that I'll be better I go in for an MRI on Thursday see what the fuck is going on with my neck gotta bring monkey in whatever man but I just I'm like irritable and I want to yell so I'm working on this guy uh I the it's uh i used to yell guy yeah it's a character i'm working on i used to yell guy he doesn't yell anymore but he sort of yells about not yelling like sort of like man if this was the old me i'd be fucking yelling at you right now if this was the old me i'd be

fucking telling you what a piece of shit you were but but I'm over that, all right? I'm not going to fucking tell you what a piece of shit you are. Even if you are one, I'm not that guy anymore because I don't fucking yell anymore. That's the new guy. That's how I used to yell guy. I'm not fucking yelling at you. I'm telling you that I used to be a shitty fucking guy who would have told you your fucking car stinks and you're a talentless fuck but that's not me anymore man i would never fucking say that i used to yell but i don't fucking do that shit anymore i would say go fuck yourself but i'm not that guy anymore that's used to yell guy thank you very much you enjoyed that. I'll be working on that guy. Hey, man, if this were the old days,

I'd tell you to get the fuck out of my house. But I'm not that guy anymore. So you go ahead and hang out. Just fucking hang out, man. Seriously, fucking hang out. I don't want you to leave. That's the old me. You fuck.

Oh, see, I slipped. I slipped. That's a used to yell guy relapsing. New character. Enjoy it. Carol Kane is a sweetheart and a great actress and a legend. I don't like to use that word. I don't like when people use it about me, and I just did it about her.

But I was so thrilled to have her on. I really am. She's on the new Amazon series Hunters with Al Pacino. All episodes of season one are now streaming. Enjoy this conversation with me and Carol Kane. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, We'll be right back. Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. How are you doing, Mark? I am okay. I'm pretty good. I tend to operate at a high level of dread and anxiety. Oh, God. What? You too.

You too? Are you kidding? It's going to be the death of me. Really? Oh, fuck me. Yeah? Oh, yeah. I can't stand it.

I mean, what do you, like, just like upon waking? Frequently upon waking, I would just instantly be anxious. Yeah. Why is that? I don't know, man. Has it always been that way? Yes. I was an anxious little baby, and I just stayed that way.

I don't like saying, I try to get away from saying it's a Jew thing about anything, but like it's a Jew thing. Is that right? I don't know. Isn't it? I don't think it's only. I have a best friend who is not Jewish at all, and she kind of is the same way. Oh, yeah? But it's something you've always lived with.

Absolutely. So like when you were a little girl, where did that happen? Well, I was in Cleveland. I was born in Cleveland. Was it a great city then? Well, you know, I left there when I was quite young and traveled a lot with my father and my family. And so I really only remember like going to elementary school and walking there in the snow. Right.

You know. Yeah. I was just in Cleveland. Oh, what were you doing there? I did comedy there. But it's one of those cities where, you know, it's sort of the vestige, the ghost of some other time. Is that right? No, no.

I mean, it's fine. It's bounced back to a degree, but there are these great American cities that went through really rough times, some of them longer than others, and some of them have come back better than others, but you do feel like, oh, this was once something. Something beautiful. Well, and Cleveland, the orchestra,

and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is there. That's right. Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is there, That's right. Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is there. And I think rock and roll on some level, was Alan Freed from there, I think? Yes, I believe you're right. Like the DJ, the big rock shows. There was something defining about Cleveland

in the history of rock and roll. Yeah. But you were there only until you were what? You were like 10? Well, when I was eight, we moved to France for a year and a half. And then we came back for a small amount of time. Back to Cleveland?

Yes. And then we lived in Haiti for a little while. Wait a minute. So were your parents together? Well, here's the trick yeah uh we thought they were together who did me and my sister there's just two of you yeah but in fact that was just a horrible painful marriage which could be why i woke up anxious when I was a little girl. For sure.

And then we came back to Cleveland for a while. And then when I was 11, I went to boarding school in Connecticut. Yeah. And then my sister went to a different one because, in fact, then they had confessed that they were getting a divorce. So we went to different boarding schools, and then I moved to New York. All right, so what did your folks do?

What were they involved with? My father was a beautiful architect. Really? Yeah, fantastic. Is there still standing things in Cleveland? Yes, there's a firehouse, a school, yeah. A part of a temple, yeah. And my mother, who's still with me. Really? Oh, I'm so lucky. How old

is she? She's 93. Wow. She is a composer, a pianist. She lived in Paris for 20 years and was considered a master teacher of something called Dalcroze. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. No, what is that? Educate me. Yeah, it's a way of

teaching music through movement. Okay. It's kind of a fascinating thing. So that's why you went to paris uh no we went there as a family because my dad had a full like a reverse fulbright to study at the sorbonne and then we then she moved back there yeah for real you know and and then i would go see her a couple times a year.

And then she moved back here, and she is still composing. In fact, if you have an email, which you won't be seeing here, I'd love to send you a song that she wrote. Now it's a little film. It's called Neige. Okay. And it's on YouTube now. Okay.

And so she's still at the piano every day. And where does she live? She lives in New York. With you? We live in the same building, but not the same apartment. I live on 16. She lives on 10. Okay.

Yeah. That wasn't always the way it was, right? You lived there first? No, she lived there first. And then there came a time when I just started to feel like it was better to be closer. And eventually I found a place that I liked in her building and I moved. And it was perfect timing, really, because, you know, some things happened to her health-wise and I was there. Right.

And I'm so grateful for that. Is your sister still around? My sister's in Santa Cruz. What? Yes, what? Is she an old hippie? She is an old hippie, and she's a realtor now, and she does a lot of movement stuff too.

Oh, really? Yeah. Well, that's a pretty creative family, it seems. Yes. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, that's a pretty creative family, it seems. Yes. I mean, like, it doesn't seem like, so it was always sort of second nature to engage in creativity and be in that world, even grow up in a working class family. Right. I guess it was, yeah. Yeah, like when I was little, my mother had these gorgeous ballet books,

big, giant picture books of all the dancers in their costumes and makeup. And I used to, there was a makeup kit that you could get at FAO Schwartz. Oh, FAO Schwartz. And it was a kit, which is the best thing in the world. Sure. Comes with its own little box. You open it up. Yeah, F.A.O. Schwartz. And it was a kit, which is the best thing in the world. Sure. Comes with its own little box. You open it up. And then I used to sit on the floor in the bathroom in front of the mirror and just spend hours recreating the makeup that was in the ballet book.

Right. Yeah. Did you do ballet? No, I wish. Yeah. But so your folks, what, they were always fighting? Is that what happened? Like it was just tense?

Yeah. Because the anxiety thing. Because I wonder that about myself. Because I don't feel like, I know my parents' marriage wasn't great. But there was fighting. But it wasn't like total chaos. But maybe it was. I don't know.

Well, did they stay together? No. No. No, don't be ridiculous. Of course not. It was, yeah, they were both very, I don't know what my dad was up to. I do, but. Oh, you do?

Sure. As you grow older, you have more of a clue? Well, they tell you. There seems to be no statute of limitations. It runs out, the statute of limitations on the shit they shouldn't tell their kid when they're in their 80s or 70s. Are they still with you? Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful.

Yeah, it is, most days. Most days. And so how old were you when they you? Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, it is most days. Most days. And so how old were you when they separated? 35. I didn't know who I would live with. Yeah, what the hell? There was a custody battle. It was a very difficult time for me.

Who gets the baby? Yeah. No. Yeah. There's a long time coming. Well, what do you do about your anxiety? Oh, man. You know, I exercise a lot.

You look good, by the way. Very handsome. I appreciate that. I'd like everyone to know how handsome you are. Oh, thank you. I'm holding up okay. I think I'm getting better. I think you're getting better. I really do. I just try to do some self-talk around it, really, just to try to figure out. I just get filled with a certain amount of dread and god knows the cultural climate doesn't help oh my god but there's something there's some part of me that feeds it like it's involuntary like it's almost like there's some part of me that believes this is the way i should be so that's hard is that for your creativity do you think no i just think it's my nature like you said you've had it all your life so that's sort of that's your your life, so that's your ground zero. So that's your default.

So anything you do to improve that is going to be working against your nature. So that's how I see it anyways. I feel that there is some wisdom creeping in as I get older. Yeah, sure. Like a little bit is seeping in there so that I'm able, not everything in the world was the most important thing in the world to me.

And in terms of my artistry, it had to be perfect. Right. Or it was just crap, you know? Right. So you're hard on yourself. Hard on myself. And when I was very young,

I would think I was hard on others, which is no longer the case because I really did start to learn that it is the process and that's all there is. Right. You know, you don't know what's going to happen with it.

You do your best and you don't take anything out on anybody else and you better enjoy the process and that's it. Yeah, I agree with that. I get hard on myself as well. But there's times where in terms of wisdom, a lot of things just don't matter as much as they used to. Well, that's, I think, what I meant to say.

I made it very fancy and elaborate. But isn't that kind of a relief? Totally. I've been doing a joke lately about like, I don't know if I have early onset or Alzheimer's or I'm just getting older and accepting things more, but either way, I'm happy about that. Yes.

I just, I have to tell you, I just read maybe the best book I ever read. I'm going to read it again. It's Diane Keaton's new book, brother and sister. Oh yeah. I just,

I have, they sent me the galley cup. Why do I get it? That's the last time i saw you right you were with her at a netflix party maybe was that true yeah and yeah i'd love to talk to her this is the most beautiful book perhaps i've ever read and it has a great deal to do with what we were talking about how how things don't matter in the same way. Right. They matter, but you're able to see things differently. So that's out?

This is out, and it's a bestseller. Yeah. And as I say, I mean, I really think it's the most beautiful book I've ever read. I have it. I wanted to read it. I wanted her to come on, but I guess she's not. She doesn't do that. I don't know.

I cannot speak for her. Are you guys friends? Oh, yes. So how long have you been friends with her? Okay, at least 40 years. Yeah. I think more. But let's get before that.

So now you leave Cleveland. Your parents divorced. 42 years, I think. I'm more. But let's get before that. So now you leave Cleveland. Your parents divorced. 42 years, I think. I'm sorry. Did you meet her on Annie Hall? No. We actually did a movie together before Annie Hall called Harry and Walter Go to New York. And it had this unbelievable cast.

James Caan and Ellie Gould. And Charlie Durning and Diane and I'm Harry, I'm Walter it's such a thrill to be You're the only person in the world who remembers that. That's incredible. I remember just because see like I remember it as that they were show

business but I don't think that they were. It was a crime thing, a robbery thing or I don't know. I just remember them doing a bit. But that's what they did. Yeah. And you're the only one that knows that. And it was directed by a brilliant director called Mark Rydell.

Yeah. And it just was a big flop. Yeah. But that's what I mean about the process. I loved James Caan. I loved Elliot Gould when I was a kid. Of course. And I remember seeing that.

Probably saw it with my parents. But I remember also like James Caan and Alan Ar Elliot Gould when I was a kid. Of course. And I remember seeing that. Probably saw it with my parents. But I remember also like James Caan and Alan Arkin in Freebie and the Bean. Yes. There were these weird movies that these guys did that I remember seeing and I loved them, but they didn't do well, huh? No. But let's go back. So that's when we met.

Oh, okay. So you go to prep school in Connecticut. That's fancy. And you feel like your parents pushed you both into different prep schools so they could figure out how to separate? No, I think that they did what they thought was best for us in that I was in love with theater. You knew that from an early... Oh, yes. I started doing children's theater when I was like six.

Oh, really? Yeah. In Cleveland? In Cleveland, yeah. And so then they sent me to a school that had a fantastic drama teacher. It's a school actually that Mike Nichols went to, but now it's closed. What was it called? It was called Cherry Lawn in Darien, Connecticut.

And in fact, I think that most of the kids were there because there was trouble at home, which I didn't know until my second year. A bunch of other anxious kids. Yeah. second year, you know. A bunch of other anxious kids. Yeah. And then my sister loved horses and dogs and animals, and they sent her to a Quaker boarding school in the Carolinas where she could in fact have a horse and a dog. So I think they were being very thoughtful. and yet it was sort of the end of the family, you know. Sure. But it has to be.

Yeah. So while you were there, is that where you did, like, do you have a history of, like, learning acting? Is that where it started? No. Well, I guess I really started in children's theater. Yeah. We had an incredible guy named Jerry Leonard who ran this theater.

And we were like six years old. And we did The Wizard of Oz, and they say, well, don't go to the east, we're in the east. Don't go to the west. You remember that? And Jerry would come storming down the aisle of the theater yelling at us that, you know, the West wasn't like just anywhere. The West is that way and the East is that way. We had to be professional.

And that was a great beginning. A grown man yelling at six-year-olds about directions. But he made us better. Right. I'm not kidding. He wasn't abusive. But he made us better. Right. I'm not kidding. He wasn't abusive. He was just perfectionist. Yes.

And he taught us the discipline of what it takes. Yeah. What you have to stick with. And it's not so easy if you take it seriously. Yeah. So you learned that lesson early. Then I went to acting school when I moved to New York. But what about the boarding school? Did you do shows?

Oh, we did little plays. Yeah, yeah. And the guy who was there, the guy that was the big... Basil Burwell was his name. But did you have... You studied acting, right? We had acting classes. Yeah.

Yeah. And we did plays. Yeah. And I was very much a perfectionist then. I was like, if the other kids can't take this seriously, I'm going to go out of my mind. Yeah. It was terrible. Really?

Well, I mean, I don't think it was so terrible for them. But, I mean, for me, it was like, how could they not give this their whole life? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was 12. So when you're a perfectionist as a performer like that in acting, I imagine at that age or – because, I mean, it's one thing to be hard on yourself. And around acting, it's a little tricky. I mean, because sometimes all you can know is what you feel, whether you nailed it or not for you.

Yeah, yeah. because sometimes all you can know is what you feel, whether you nailed it or not, for you. Yeah. But I guess at a certain point, you're kind of half-stage managing everything. Yeah. Try not to. Right, like why aren't they doing this? Why is it continuity issues? That's something I'm really trying not to do

because I'm working now with younger people who really don't have much experience and i'm trying not to be the the one that says no no no you know right all young people right in terms of directing the production side and everything else well mostly because it seems like you know when when you started out in the racket, in the show business racket, that everybody with kids went away. I mean, everyone was pretty young. The directors. I mean, it was at that time where Hollywood was shifting and these younger directors.

Oh, yes. The 70s. Right. We're having this great opportunity. Right? My first movie was directed by Mike Nichols. And what a trippy movie, Carnal Knowledge. Yeah.

What a bizarro movie that was. I love that movie. Yeah, I love it too. It holds up, by the way. I bet you, I think the last time I saw it was maybe five years ago. Yeah. I do check in with it occasionally. I think it holds up.

That slideshow at the end. Oh, my God. With Nicholson. Ballbusters on parade. Thank you very much. Yes. And, you know, it was sooner than that. That character, his character was disturbing.

Very disturbing. And I think sort of timeless as far as toxic masculinity goes. Yes. Absolutely crippled. Yeah. Crippled. And you were married to Art Garfunkel? I was his flower child girlfriend.

Yeah. When he acted. He acted a few times. Oh, yes. A couple of Mike Nichols movies. Oh, yes. Yeah. When he acted. He acted a few times. Oh, yes. A couple of Mike Nichols movies. Oh, yes, with Mike, yeah. Catch-22. Catch-22, yeah.

And your movie, and I don't remember him in other movies. I think I just saw him in a movie, and I can't remember what it was. God damn it.

Yeah. It's okay. That's the other thing. Let it go, Mark. Right, but Nichols at that time, how old was he? You were how old when he started the movie?

I was 17. 17? So you had to get your parents' permission? Well, almost. My mother, they were shooting already in Vancouver, and I lived in New York. So I just met Juliet Taylor, and she sent my picture to Mike in Vancouver. Right. And then they said, we want to fly her out there and meet her.

Yeah. And if she gets the part, she'll stay. And if she doesn't, she'll go right back. Right. So my mother said to the producer, well, she's only going if you fly her first class. Oh, of course. Because, of course, she anticipated

that I would be flying back with a broken heart the next day. So she wanted you to have peanuts and food and stuff. Well, just, yeah. How could I possibly, you know, go meet Mike Nichols

and have this miracle happen? Yeah, right, right. Which is insane that that happened to me. Why didn't you give yourself some credit? I give myself a little credit, but I'm talking about the greatest director. Yeah. You know.

Yeah. And Jack, and like starting out in that company. Right. It was like a miracle, you know? Yeah. So you didn't have to fly back sad. I didn't have to fly back. I stayed there.

And so your memories of Mike are like moving. Of course, I'm crying. Sorry. Oh, I see you have tissues, so I must not be the first. It happens. And I also see you have a scary looking knife on the table. I know. Like people distract themselves with things.

With the stuff. Yeah, I've had stuff here. And I just, like I noticed this morning that I didn't have tissues. I'm glad I put them out. Oh, did you know that I'd be the sucker that needed them? No, I didn't. I just knew that like sometimes people need tissues, so I brought them out just today because I'm still getting set up in here. So what was so amazing about Mike Nichols outside of the fact that he gave you your first opportunity?

Because you've worked with amazing directors. Yes. So what determines that? In Mike's case, first of all, he is completely brilliant. In his mind, he's brilliant with music and photographs and literature and all the arts and books. Mike had this gift of making everyone feel that they were the only person that was right for the part. Oh, it made you feel special. Yeah.

You know, I said to Mike, I guess I'm so nervous that I won't, you know, be doing what you want me to do or be able to live up to. And he said, oh, well, you're perfect. You can't do anything wrong. I mean, really. And then if you believe that a little bit, you are free to do your best work. And it's a rare thing that a director will just right away give you total freedom and support you in that way. And a brilliant director who'd have every right to say, no, don't do it. But that's not how Mike works.

And also, I think it seems that he's probably being, obviously being genuine. So he's casting people. Right, he's casting people specifically for who they are. Yeah. Because you're singular. So the fact that he made you believe that and understand that, that early on probably gave you a good foundation just in terms of how to think about acting. Yes. That's great.

Yeah. It's the same with Nicholson, too. I mean, there's nobody really does what either of you do. Oh, Jack, you know, he's just so great. Did you have scenes with him other than that big slide show scene? I did, but I had a big scene that was cut where I came back to him yeah the flower child without arthur yeah and i presented myself to him uh naked and everything to try and i thought i could heal him you know

yeah and and and he he didn't want me you know Uh-huh. And so that was another big scene, but it got cut. Oh, wow. Yeah. That sounds like a pretty, it's your first movie and you're naked in front of Jack Nicholson. I know. How about that? Was that a bad experience or a good experience? Shocking.

I was shocked every second. But I was so young then, too, you know. He was pretty young, but not that young. I think he was like 35 or something, and just becoming a giant star. You know, Easy Rider had come out, and suddenly he was on the front of Time magazine or something. And he didn't know anything about that. He was finding his way to how that happened to him. How was he to work with at that point?

Oh, so generous. Oh, I'm going to tell you. Okay, I'm going to tell you this story. It's the best. Oh, no, I have two. Should I tell you two Jack Nicholson stories? Please, because we don't see much of them anymore,

and it's sad. Those of us who grew up watching your movie. Being in love with them. I know. Like even when he just sit up front at the Oscars. Well, okay, one of my stories is that, is the Oscars. So, I did a movie called

Hester Street. That was the big movie for you. Yeah, I got nominated for Best Actress. That was 1975. Oh, really? Okay. A strange Jewish movie, in a way. A black and white, turn of the century. I remember it. Low East Side.

At Low East Side, I spoke Yiddish for most of the movie. The movie cost about $400,000. It looks like an independent film. Oh, it's the most independent it could be. And so it was a crazy thing that I got nominated. Can I just ask you, though, to set that movie up? Because I was thinking about it, and I think it's been years since I've seen it, but I remember you in it. I remember posters for it, but it dawned on me this morning that this was not a studio film how did and like

most of the people that are in it I have never heard of all right how did that happen I mean was it a big movie no I mean it was a couple uh Joan and Ray Silver Joan wrote the script um and it was taken from jewish daily forward and and other things and uh and about the the the lower east side like yeah the first wave of immigrants coming over right like my grandparents oh yeah or great-grandparents. Yeah. Like it was early 1900s? Yes, it was about 1900 around then. I remember they shot it all on location, right? And they made it all. Right. Except we had a little studio on East 5th Street where the apartment was, my apartment.

East 5th. Yeah. There was a little studio, 2nd Avenue and 5th Street. Interesting. So these people just put the money together and shot the movie. Okay, Ray was in prefab housing. They are also from Cleveland and knew my parents, by the way. Okay, okay.

And Ray made a great deal of money as a businessman in prefab housing. Oh, that's what he sold. That was his business. Yes, and Joan wrote this genius script, I think. It was a script that when I read it, I was watching the movie. I thought I was watching the movie. And so I tried out for that several times

and also worked with someone from the Yiddish theater to coach me because I really spoke Yiddish for two-thirds of the movie. Did you have family that spoke Yiddish theater to coach me because I really spoke Yiddish for two-thirds of the movie. Did you have family that spoke Yiddish? Not around me. Right. My grandmother, of course, spoke Yiddish, but she was one of the people that didn't really want to be talking about before. All right. She was American. was american right right they wanted to yeah let go of that she she she we're from russia russia austria yeah i got that too yeah yeah russia and austria yeah a little bit i got russia poland i just did uh finding your roots oh yeah yeah they did that

how was that it was cool it was cool yeah man i learned a lot of stuff. A lot of Russians. A lot of the Pale of Settlement section of Russia. Most, I think, Ashkenazis contract themselves back to there. And then Ukraine, Poland. Yeah, Poland. And some, it was mostly Russia and Poland. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where you come from.

Yeah. Yeah. So you're learning Yiddish. You're getting coach you come from. Yeah. Yeah. So you weren't in Yiddish. You're getting coached. For the audition. The last phase of the many auditions was to audition in Yiddish. And I don't know. I got that part.

That great, great, great part. Did people go to the movies? Did they go see it? I think people went to see it. I mean, okay, I'll tell you how i got nominated i think there was a uh retired uh publicist i believe he worked with jack warner one of the great studio heads and he was retired but he as he told me, liked a dark horse. And he came out of retirement to do Julie Christie's campaign for Darling, which she won. The year before you were two?

I don't know the exact date. So he figured that I was the darkest of horses in this tiny old movie. And since he came from old, oldwood yeah this brilliant guy took the film and i'm talking about film cans of film big two big cans of film over to uh frank sinatra's house and uh and he had some people rosalind russell's house. Oh, the Voting Academy. And they had people over. In those days, you know, it was much more personal. It was a smaller business.

Everything was smaller. And, you know, there weren't a million movies because there wasn't streaming stuff or whatever. So he physically took those cans to people's houses. Influential people within the community. Right. And, you know, they'd have a dinner and then they'd have a screening. That's how it worked, huh? And that's how I believe that I owe it to Max.

I mean, I owe it to the brilliance of the role. Yeah. But also to Max. Yeah. That's why. But also then, you know, like all those people saw the movie. They saw the movie. And you got nominated. Yeah.

And who won? Oh, Louise Fletcher won for Cuckoo's Nest. So you saw Jack again. So this brings us back to the story. Okay, so the story, that story, and I have another great one, but that story is when you get nominated for an Oscar, that story is when you get nominated for an oscar um you suddenly everyone in the world wants to talk to you and everyone in the world wants to send you flowers and give you free things and we didn't have swag bags in those days so i missed out on that that but it's just like a hurricane maybe

so it's like a hurricane and I was so young I think I was 23 when at the ceremony or something and so all this happened to me and I was at the Oscars and there was Jack

giving me a smile. Did he win that year, too? He won. Best actor. Best actor. For McMurphy. Yes. Okay.

And I did not win. Yeah. And I woke up the next day in my Beverly Hills hotel, which was like fantasy land, you know. Mm-hmm. Hills Hotel, which was like fantasy land, you know. And the phone didn't ring to the extent where I think I picked it up like you do if you're in love with someone and you don't know why they're not calling and you figure it must because the phone is broken. You felt like you'd just been lost and no one wanted to talk to you.

It was bizarre. It was science fictional. The commotion and then boom, nothing. Except then I get a call from Jack around 1130 or 12. Did I want to come have Mexican food at El Cholos with he and Angelica. This is the day after he won. And he knew what that next day is like. Because, you know, he didn't win everything. Right. So he knew that it would be very quiet and it would be a hard day. And he picked me up and took me to lunch and got me out of my doldrums.

Oh, that's sweet. It's crazy that he did that, you know, that he thought of me that next day. That's sweet. It's very moving. Yeah, I know. So then I have another one. Should I tell you the other one? Yeah.

The other one was that I did The Last Detail. I love that movie. You're so good in that movie thank you and quade was so good and jack and everybody oh yeah hal ashby of course what now like before you tell that story like hal ashby you know when okay in terms of you know we sort of discussed a little bit about mike nichols but hal Ashby is sort of a curious guy. He was a very unique guy that I don't know a lot about. You know, what was his process? What was he like? He was so involved with the scenes. And in those days, the director was on the set. Yeah.

It wasn't in Video Village. Right. Way far away. Yeah. It wasn't in Video Village. Right. Way far away. Yeah.

They were sitting on the set. And Hal, he would just crack up out loud while you were shooting. You know, he couldn't help himself because he would be just gone. Yeah. Gone in the movie. Yeah. And also incredibly kind person. Yeah. I mean, like that, I think the last detail, which I watch once a year or so. Oh, do you? Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean, I think The Last Detail,

which I watch once a year or so. Oh, do you? Oh, sure, yeah. I saw it recently. Oh, boy. And just because of the groove of those movies, it's just, there's something totally unique about that.

I just watched The Friends of Eddie Coyle last night. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. I remember that one. It's a heavy movie, man. Yeah. I mean, it's a heavy ending. But yeah, you were

so great as sort of like this sweet prostitute. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I thank you for saying that. Yeah. But it's such a beautiful movie. It's about when they have to let him go. Oh my God.

And it's sort of different for Jack. I mean, there's something, him struggling with the emotions of what he has to do. Yeah, because he's a career guy. He's a lifer. And he likes the kid. Yeah, they love the kid. And Otis Young is the other guy.

It was great. But yeah, yeah. Okay, so what's the other Jack story? Okay. So in the movie, it starts out in the little parlor of a whorehouse. Right. The scene. The scene.

Yeah. My portion. And Randy Quaid's character is told that he can pick any of the prostitutes. Yeah. And he picks me. Yeah. And so then Jack kind of comes in the room with us where everything's supposed to happen. And, you know, kind of tells me that he's kind of a first timer in this matter.

Right. I remember. Yeah. Right. And then he's supposed to leave. Yeah. And the scene keeps going inside that room. But I have, I close the door after Jack, but it's not really supposed to close all the way

because the camera is looking into that room. So it's supposed to close, movie close, like just enough inches from the camera so that they can still see the scene. And again, I was very young and I was very nervous. And I was very nervous. And every time it came to the point where I was supposed to close the door, I closed the door. Yeah, all the way. Except that Jack knew after that happened once or twice that that was going to happen every time. Yeah.

And he was so kind that he stayed right next to the camera every time. Yeah. And he was so kind that he stayed right next to the camera every take. And when I tried to close the door, he put his hand in the way and stopped it where it needed to be for the camera.

And he didn't laugh at me or make fun of me. He just made it possible for the scene to continue without saying anything. Yeah. Nothing. Yeah.

Just did it. Yeah. So. Yeah. Just did it. Yeah. So I just think those are stories of such kindness and empathy, you know. He loves, you know, I can't remember if I was talking to Brooks, James Brooks, or Carl Reiner, but there was, you know. But it was about a few good men that, you know, they were doing Tom Cruise's coverage or Bacon's coverage. I don't remember whose coverage.

But, you know, Nicholson was on the stand, but it was the other side. Yeah. And, you know, they were like, you can take a break, Jack. And Jack was like, he just kept, he stayed there. And he kept acting at the intensity that the role required. That's his generosity as an artist. Yeah. And they asked him, what do you do that for?

He goes, I just love to act. Isn't that great? I love to act. Yeah. Yeah, and there is a generosity there. Yeah. That's great. Those are great stories.

Yeah. They're very touching. And then you work with, we're never going to get through every movie, but these defining movies, because Dog Day Afternoon, you were in the bank, right? Yes. That was a lot

of screen time for you. Yes. That was crazy. With Mr. Pacino. Young Pacino. Who I just worked with again. For this new thing you're doing, Hunters? Hunters for Amazon. It stars Al. I mean, you were with Al when he was like,

you know, there was a strange, he was like the vulnerability there. To see, you know, to see who he was, you know, in Serpico and in definitely, I think Dog Day Afternoon more than any of the other

younger Al ones. Oh, so beautiful. Really sweet. Well, I don't know. There's Panic in Needle Park. Panic in Needle Park. Panic in Needle Park and... Scarecrow and so many. And Justice for All is a little later, right?

Yeah. Scarecrow. But also Al and I did several plays together when we were young, and he was just brilliant on the stage. So open, right? Oh, yeah. He's really something. It's fun to be on the other side of things

and work again you know with that with that oh yeah I bet I mean 30 years in between

or something and you guys hadn't really talked or anything or seen much we would see each other once in a while because

I belonged to the actor's studio and Al was president and you know we would see each other at gatherings and things like that but not we hadn't worked together did you work at the actor studio did you train there um i trained with a

woman named marilyn freed who trained with strasburg and and then i became a member and i but i i was never brave enough to get up and do a scene. Isn't that terrible? Really? When you were younger, you mean? Yeah. Why? Who was there? What was so intimidating? It was...

Was Strasburg still there? No. I saw him a couple times moderate, you know, and that was very intimidating. But it felt so hallowed to me, you know, and so vulnerable because you're putting up work that is not supposed to be finished in any way. And it doesn't matter if you don't even get the first sentence of the scene you're doing that. You just are doing a process.

And I don't know, I just couldn't take it if I did a bad job. Too vulnerable? I guess so. But you would hang out? Yes. Uh-huh. And Ellen Burstyn, she's the one that accepted me and later also even put me on the board, you know.

What did she know, right? And we just did a play in London, Ellen and I, and Keira Knightley and Elizabeth Moss called The Children's Hour. Lillian Hellman. Ellen was just amazing to work with. when was that last year no that was i say i we just did because it feels like it but i think it was about seven years ago so most of your training was with freed yes and she was a and she was a a strasburg student and and she yeah and she became a coach forburg student. A Strasburg student. And she, yeah. And she became a coach for a lot of people.

And you did private with her? I did class and I did private. And she was my coach on Hester Street. Okay. Yeah. Keeping you in line. Yes. Keeping you focused.

Keeping you in line. Yes. Keeping you focused. Just helping me get as far into the emotional life as was needed. That's great. I've never seen, well, I haven't done that kind of acting my whole life until recently. I was on a set where there was dialect coach and also an acting coach. What was that? That was for this Aretha Franklin biopic I did with Jennifer Hudson.

Oh, my God. I played Jerry Wexler. And so, like, I didn't need the acting coach, but the dialect coach was sort of paying attention to my Brooklynese or my New Yorker. What was it supposed to be, your dialect? That was it. It was just New York, you know, and I could do it.

Yeah. But, like, you know, sometimes you drift, and I could do it. Yeah. But like, you know, sometimes you drift and then he'll come in after a take and go like, when you say park, you know, park, not park. Yeah, yeah. They did that on Hunters a lot. Oh, really?

They really, you know, had to have that Yiddish, again Yiddish, because we were from Poland, had to have it perfect. Is this a modern-day piece, Hunters? No, it takes place in 1970. Oh, good, because I was wondering. I watched a trailer, and I was in the camp, and I'm like, I don't think any of them are alive anymore, so it's in the 70s.

So it takes place in the 70s, but there are a lot of flashbacks back to Auschwitz and camps. And this is Jordan Peele? Yes. And David Weil and Nicky Toscano, they're the writer-producers. And yeah, it's an amazing show, I think. Is it a series or a miniseries? We did 10. Okay.

But it's not, they intend to do another season but you know that's the other thing I've learned with age is just don't count on it. Don't count on anything. The horrible thing about that is because I'm on a series that actually got announced that we're doing the fourth and final season. But it's nice to know that. Because when you do a series, you know, and after every 10 episodes now, you know, and you've got to wait a year. Not just a panic, but you've got to kind of half end it. You have to.

Like if you're the creator, you've got to know that 10 has to, you know, have enough closure to, you know, be it. Yes. Which I think it's nice that we're heading into this season and the creators and the showrunners know that it's over because now they can you know finish it properly yeah you know we did uh unbreakable kimmy schmidt people love that show and we did not know that it was ending until very close to the end yeah and they did uh did, Tina and Faye and Robert Carlock, they did this genius job of wrapping up our stories. Yeah.

But they really didn't have much warning. And I think it's great to know how much time you have. And to be honest with you, I don't think anything needs to be more than four or five seasons. I guess so. I mean, I know it's nice to work and everybody wants to work, but I mean, in terms of storytelling, maybe not. You know,

a lot of them, they start to eat themselves. Oh, I don't know that that was happening. No, no, no, I'm not saying it was happening, but it just feels to me. I know what you're saying. Yeah. We did get to do a Kimmy Schmidt movie for Netflix, which is an interactive movie. Did it happen already? It's coming out in May, I think.

An interactive movie. Meaning that the audience, forget it, I couldn't do it because I'm just so ignorant about computers and stuff. But the audience picks where each character is going to go. They have like four different endings. Oh, right, right. Yeah, Soderbergh did a thing like that or something. I think so. And then they pick.

And then, so there's like four different movies within the one movie, depending on what path you choose for each character. Yeah, it was like, it was a Sharon Stone thing. What the hell was that? Yeah, that was Soderbergh. Right, it was, right. It was a similar type of thing. And Paul Rubens was in that, and he was so Sharon Stone thing. Yeah, that was Soderbergh. Right, it was. And Paul Rubens was in that, and he was so good in that. Yeah.

All right, so just let's stay in the past for a second more. Because these movies were so defining, and these directors like Nichols, and then Ashby, and then Sidney Lumet. Dog Day. Because they're all very, like I would say, it feels to me that in tone, there may be a similarity between Ashby and Lumet. I will say that Sidney directed the movie with a month of rehearsal before we started shooting so so we were we were running through it

like a play in a in a uh another place on second avenue above the second avenue deli or something there was a big hall and they taped it off like they do when you're in the theater to show which what's where and we rehearsed that thing until we could do it as a play because we weren't going to shoot in continuity, but he wanted us to have the whole thing. That's so smart. It's unbelievable. To know the story so you can act appropriately.

Yeah. That's the hardest thing I think about acting is when you shoot out a sequence and then you have to be refreshed with, you know, where am I emotionally or physically in this? Well, back in the old days. Yeah. I did a Canadian movie called Wedding in White.

Yeah. Which won Best Film in the Canadian Film Festival. And it was with Donald Petrie, a great actor. And, you know, I used to go to the rushes every day. Oh, really? Because I was the central character, and we were jumping around so much that we shot the last scene in the movie

the first day we shot. Yeah. And in those days, you know, the actors, they could have that in their contract to go sit and watch it. And then you could track for yourself where you were emotionally each day. Yeah, you could see, oh, I guess, but that means tomorrow when I get into this, I have to. Oh, that's helpful. Yeah, it was so helpful.

tomorrow when I get into this I have to yeah that's helpful yeah it was so helpful and uh those are the days when I could actually look at myself on screen which is no longer the case oh really yes oh well I'm sorry so yeah then you did Annie Hall which out what Alison Portnick yeah first wife but he's a different type of director than those other guys right I mean oh yeah from what I from what I've talked to people, he says, you know, you're supposed to know what you're doing. That's right. And he, again, like Mike, I think, he relied totally on the casting. And again, Juliet Taylor did most of his casting. And he,

so he would cast the person that he thought was perfect for the role because he really didn't feel like he wanted to be heavily directing people right especially he was in the movie you know with you and um and he yeah so he basically left it up to you and if it was really off what he wanted then he would say something. But he didn't say a lot. Yeah. But, like, it's hard. Like, I guess I wanted to get, I got locked into these earlier movies because that's, I think, sort of defined you in the public eye a lot, right?

I hope so. Because those were the days. Yeah. And I remember them very, you know, I love you in all those movies. Thank you. And I've seen a lot of the other movies as things. Like, I remember seeing you, I think, like, the first, in my mind, the kind of resurrection, or not resurrection,

because you worked constantly, but for me to re-notice you was like the Princess Bride. Yeah. Like, all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, my God, it's Carol Kane. And Scrooge. And Scrooge, yeah. Yeah. But you worked constantly.

Well. You did the, you worked with Gene Wilder. Yeah, that was great. The world's greatest. The world's greatest. Oh, my gosh. You know, that's a great movie that didn't get- I know.

Paid much attention. I know. I think it came out at the same time as High Anxiety, maybe, the Mel Brooks movie. And it was similar to a Mel Brooks movie in a way. Well, yeah. Yeah. And so, I don't know what happened, but I think it's a really Brooks movie. And it was similar to a Mel Brooks movie in a way. Well, yeah. And so I don't know what happened, but I think it's a really good movie. But Gene, you guys together, come on.

Yeah, that was great. He was great. Yes, he was great. So funny. He's a funny guy. I noticed that. I watched Young Frankenstein again the other day, and I just thought, oh, he is just too funny.

He just had this weird build where he'd start slow. Yeah, and I also get him going. I watched Bonnie and Clyde. Yeah, right in the back of the car. Oh my God, that little part and he was so brilliant, right? Yeah. What was it? Was he a nice guy to work with? Oh, yeah. He was sweet, huh? Yeah.

I guess it gets sad, you know, you talk about so many people are gone now. And then what was the other one I was just thinking of? I had no idea that you were an Ishtar because I never saw it. Well, there's another one for you to see. Some people say it's not bad. Oh, it's not bad. Yeah.

It's just, I don't know what happened. Why it got attacked. Yeah, it's got some great stuff in it, actually. Is it funny? Yeah, it is funny. It's Elaine May. Yeah, it's got some great stuff in it, actually. Is it funny? Yeah, it is funny. It's Elaine May. Yeah, you work with the Nichols and May at different times.

So as you get, like, what is your, how do you determine, you know, because, like, it's really kind of astounding how much you work. You just keep going. You just keep doing it. I hope so. No, you must love it, right?

I love it, yeah. You know, I worked with you, not really, I was in the same movie. Yes, well, yeah. Michael Biglia's movie, which you were great in. Which you were great in, Sleepwalk with me. Yeah, and that's where I met you the first time, in Sundance, I think. Yes.

But that was fun. That was fun. How do you determine what you're going to do? Well. Have you been with the same agent forever uh i've been with one a long time yeah and uh uh not forever uh i made some bad choices of leaving some great people because i after hester street the phone didn't ring for a year until gene called and really and And Michael, you say I work

all the time, but... After Hester Street? No, I didn't work for a year. Solid year. And that happened a lot between movies for me because I'm not a, you know, I mean, I got nominated for playing a woman with a shiddle on. So what's the next movie that that's going to... And so a lot of people just didn't understand who I might be. So long periods I didn't work, and I was with some great agents that I left because I wasn't working. So, but now I love the people I'm working with.

And I've had a very strangely good run for the last five years. And also because of Kimmy and the hunters you know and uh also shooting in Brooklyn which means I get to live at home you know in New York and just get in the van and go to Brooklyn so much better right I still am you know praying that someday I'll get to work with Marty Scorsese you know Robert I mean you don't want to leave the earth without that happening. It seems like you're of the you're of that generation. You're in that community. You guys all kind of know each other. You've worked with Pacino and you're working with him again. Where's your Scorsese and De Niro show? I don't know.

You're in New York. You can't imagine how much I hope that that will happen one day. I hope so, too, now. And the taxi thing was huge, too. I mean, you were on taxi for years, right? I was, you know what? I was only on taxi, I think, a year and a half, actually. Oh, yeah?

I got brought in, or maybe it was a little longer than that. Maybe it was two seasons. And I got brought in in the first season. Yeah. And then I was gone for a while, and then I came back and became Andy's girlfriend and then his wife. What was your relationship with Andy like? Andy's girlfriend, and then his wife. What was your relationship with Andy like?

So complicated and strange and wonderful because... That sounds like everyone's relationship with Andy Kaufman. That might be true. Although, you know, Andy had some very good friends, but we at Taxi were not one of them. We were work. Yeah, and Elaine and a lot of them. We were work. Yeah, and Elaine, and a lot of people. The comics. We were work, and he separated Taxi from his other life.

And the thing about Andy and I, and I did love him, is that I came from the theater. Yeah. So I like to rehearse. Yeah. Andy came from, well, you could say stand-up or you could say performance art. Right, sure. But in any case, he hated rehearsing and he said it was bad for what he did. Is that true of most stand-ups?

No. Well, that was Andy's feeling about it, is he wanted it spontaneous. Yeah, I understand that, yeah. So he had it in his contract that he would only come two days a week. He'd come for the read-through, and then he wouldn't be back till Friday when we taped the show. And there'd be a fake Andy all the other time for rehearsal. A guy named Jeff, lovely guy. And so every time, every Friday, I would have gotten so angry during the course of the week because I wanted to rehearse with him, you know.

And so I'll come to his dressing room or he mine and I would say look Andy, I have to talk to you because I understand that you can't rehearse but for me it just means everything. And then he'd say, I understand. I understand completely, but I just can't do it. And we'd have a talk like that.

And by the end of that talk, we would be able to be in love. So you got what you needed. Yes. Right. And I think it was good for Andy too because we had a relationship privately just then. Right, discussing why he can't do what you needed him to do. Yeah, and why I can't do what he needs to do.

So you were able to emotionally connect with them in a genuine way. Exactly. Enough to work the performance. Go out there and do it. Yeah. I think that speaks more to your capacity for adapting. I don't know. I was lucky to work with them, you know.

No, no, I know. I know what I mean. But like you can see the way you put it in retrospect is that you it worked for you yes right definitely but in the moment were you thinking that that it would work well that way you know this is i'm getting what i need yeah i knew it was necessary uh because i knew that we would be distant oh right without it we hadn seen each other. He was in a different world, and we were at work. Well, when he was spontaneous, do you have any problem sort of being the foil of that?

When you're working with somebody like him, as an actor who likes rehearsal, what do you do in that situation? Oh, no, I like it to be spontaneous, too. It's just that my way of getting to spontaneity is the opposite of his, you know? You need everything to be set so you can launch from there.

So I can go. Right. He wants whatever. He doesn't want any of it. Yeah. So that's how that was. Was it fun doing the movie? You know, he was so brilliant, right?

Yeah, oh yeah. I think he was. It's taken me years to appreciate him. He was never my bag, really, as a comic, but he's really something. I mean, I've definitely over the years grown to have a tremendous amount of respect for the creativity that he has.

I'm so sad that thing. Yeah, so yeah. What was it like doing the movie with Jim Carrey? Very strange. For me, very emotional. I just couldn't, because Jim was so good. And we were all there. And they recreated the set impeccably.

So suddenly it was like you're back in time for real. And that's Milos Formanerman who's so great also and then suddenly there's andy you know uh and it it was very for me i think for most of us a very strange experience i can't imagine i think i talked to devito about it a little bit yeah yeah yeah pretty it must have been just bizarre because because jim was out of his mind yeah yeah oh jim carrey yeah well genius out of his mind not just yeah out of his mind but he thought he was possessed well that's the way he had to do that yeah and it was effective for you yeah stay in it and did it feel genuine to you? Yes. Yeah? Wow. Because some people say it was spooky.

Yeah. Because I watched the documentary about the... Wasn't that great? It's crazy, man. Yeah. It was crazy. So it was like you were dealing with a whole other level of insanity that wasn't Andy. This is like someone doing it. Yeah, but I'll tell you something. Maybe because

of the nature of who Jim was and his appreciation for Andy and I together, that he was very gentle to me. I never did anything crazy to me. I knew crazy things might have been going on, but Tony Clifton things, you know. The Tony Clifton thing when you were actually with Kaufman, did you remember that? Him coming on set as Tony?

I wasn't there when he got fired. He got fired from the show because Tony came on to play Danny's brother. And he came to the studio with hookers on his arms and brother. Right. And he came to the studio with hookers on his arms and drunk and smoking cigarettes.

And, you know, Andy was microbiotic. But this other guy, Tony, was this guy that just didn't give a shit about what anybody thought and always picked

the most defensive thing to say. Yeah. You know, he didn about what anybody thought. Right. And always picked the most defensive thing to say. Yeah. You know, he didn't censor himself. Right. So he eventually caused so much trouble on the set that week that he was actually, Tony was fired, not Andy. Right, yeah. So everyone had to play along with that.

Yeah. And it's unclear, because I know Zamuda did Tony once in a while. He did it once in a while. Not always, yeah. So everyone had to play along with that. Yeah. And it's unclear, because I know Zamuda did Tony once in a while. He did it once in a while. Not always, though. Yeah, yeah. It was Andy's first. Zamuda's something to talk to.

Yeah, I bet. Two hours of tall tales. I bet, yeah. So one other question. Did you have fun with Billy Crystal? Oh, God. What a ridiculous question. That seemed like such a perfect thing, that movie. Oh, my God, we had Oh, God. What a ridiculous question.

That seemed like such a perfect thing, that movie. Oh, my God, we had so much fun. That movie's hilarious. Except for the prosthetics, which were difficult and long. But everything else about it was just like, it was like a magical kingdom. To fly to London and get to work with all those great people and have those fantastic costumes and transform and be with Rob. We had lenses that made it look like we had cataracts.

They were all, well, you could barely see through them. And then there was a lot of smoke, of course, because fairy tales spoke. Sure, you have to. And it took hours. Oh, God. Yes. Well, best of luck with the new series Hunter. Thank you, Mark. It's about Nazi hunters in the 70s. Yes. It's relevant.

Sadly relevant. Sadly, horribly relevant. And it was a real honor and a pleasure to talk to you. I feel the same way, Mark. Thanks. Thank you. Oh, my God.

What a treat. That was Carol Kane. That was the Carol Kane. I got choked up, man. Her reflecting about, you know know nicholson i just wow the show hunters her show with al pacino is uh all season all episodes of season one are now streaming on amazon i am now going to play my new guitar my new gibson les paul jr 1960 My new Gibson Les Paul Jr. 1960 double cutaway with a single P90 pickup arrived in the mail. And now I'm going to play it through my 1953 Fender Deluxe amp in the middle plug hole.

Jacked up so it just sounds like fucking greasy tinny mud. Yes. Yes. Yes. Listen up. Thank you. Boomer Live! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats.

Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.