WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1104 - Don Cheadle

Episode Date: March 9, 2020

It’s a good thing Marc cleaned the garage before Don Cheadle came over, otherwise Don might not have lived through this episode due to his life-threatening cat allergy. With no airborne irritants to cause problems, Don and Marc were free to talk about Don’s days at CalArts, why he loves playing golf, what he learned by portraying Miles Davis and Sammy Davis, Jr., and how Hotel Rwanda got him engaged in global activism against genocide. Don also shares stories about Boogie Nights, the MCU, and his Showtime series Black Monday. This episode is sponsored by Scotts Turf Builder Thick'R Lawn. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast WTF. Welcome to it. I'm feeling better. I'm feeling almost 100%. I don't know what to attribute that to. I told you last episode what was going on and what I was taking and how I was handling it. it today on the show don cheetle don cheetle is on the show today don cheetle who's uh i guess there's a new um season of black monday on showtime season two it's premiering march 15th this sunday at 10 p.m we talked about a lot of stuff. Good stories. Some great stories. Great guy. Like before Cheadle came in, I had to de-cat the place because he's highly allergic, I was told. There's been no cats out here, but there was a pillow. There was a pillow that Buster kind of made his own that danderized it. He danderized.

He cat danderized. He busterized it. The pillow that's on the seat of the chair over there and um so i washed that and i didn't end up putting it there anyways anyone anyone who didn't want anyone's throat to close up but oddly no allergic problems but the fucking power went out man the power went out in this place and i don't know how everything didn't get lost because we were 40 minutes in but i think it's because i have one of these towers that i plug into you know where you plug that into the wall and it's got like a built-in battery trip going one of those things where it's like this giant thing that you plug into like a power strip

times 20 but it's got a battery in it and i think that saved us i think that saved the cheetle marin discussion i've got a lot of tech in here man if i think about it i got the headphone amp i got the zoom backup i got the epm6 mixer here i got i got the apple i got nine backup drives so we don't lose anything. I got the Google Assistant to help me out with stuff during the intros. That ought to be fun, right? See what happens with that. Tuesday night, man.

I'm going to do the Bon Scott tribute. Where the fuck is that happening, man? The Avalon? I don't know. Go to DeanDelray.com. The Bon Scott tribute. Where the fuck is that happening, man? The Avalon? I don't know. Go to DeanDelray.com. The Bon Scott tribute. There might be a couple tickets left. Let me ask.

Hey, Google, where is the Dean Delray Bon Scott tribute? Dean Delray's tribute to Bon Scott of ACDC comedy and rock show is located in the Avalon Hollywood there you go my special um end times fun premieres tomorrow and I guess I'm maybe I'm not as look I'm I'm nervous about it because I'd like I'd like people to see it and I'd like a broad swath of people to see it I put about two years of work into the special and weaving it together. So everything sort of connects and hangs together like a singular piece. I recorded in a beautiful little theater, downtown LA.

And I got to be honest with you. If, if this doesn't provoke something in somebody in a large way, then my relevance is in question. Not because I'm trying to. It's just I watched it again, and I realized, like, in my own sort of smooth way, I kind of seek to – I push buttons on all levels in all directions. But I'm doing it in a in a sweet way and i don't and it's stuff on the this some of this shit in the special is pretty pretty heavy it's pretty um over the top the closer is uh is almost operatic in its uh construction and just, I guess when you do something in this day and age,

like a special, you want it to land, man. You know, I just want it. And I don't, I know you guys listen to me and you know that it's going to be on, but I want it to go out there in a big way and we'll see what happens, I guess. I've done all I can, I think. I think I've done all I can. I think I'm going to ask a couple of my buddies to maybe put it out, help me tweet it out there. I'd like, I'd like to hear the opinion of Jason Zinneman over there at the New York times just to, cause it's not even that it's, it's not the promotion thing. I like critics to deal with it so I can get a sense of it. I respect intelligent critics. And if they are actual critics and not just reviewers, I can learn something about what I've done. I don't really know what I've done. Even when I sent a link to Brendan McDonald, the producer of this show, my business partner, who has known me forever and seen me through a lot of different material, partner who has known me forever and seen me through a lot of different material, his take on some of the stuff I did in the special was a way of looking at it that I hadn't looked at it.

There was something that he saw and I think it's in there, but I like the fact that I put this stuff together. I put it out there and I really, I can't see it the way you guys see it or react to it the way you guys react to it. All I know is I'm thrilled that it's going to be out there tomorrow. I'm excited to hear what people think about it. You know? All right, let's do... Come on, man. My special's on tomorrow.

I can't be expected to keep my thoughts together. I made cabbage today. How do you make cabbage? Hey, Google. How do you make cabbage? Sure. I've got a recipe called

Southern Cabbage Recipe from Divas can cook does that sound good no i'd like a indian cabbage recipe okay i've got a recipe called indian cabbage and potato curry vegan from the wholesome fork does that sound good yeah but i don't have time right now no problem um all right so let's did make cabbage. Here's how I make it because some people seem to like my recipes occasionally. I take a head of purple cabbage and a wok. And in the wok on high heat, before I lower it a little bit, I put avocado oil. Then I throw, I would say, probably a tablespoon of black mustard seeds in there.

And when they start to pop and fizzle, I throw in maybe a tablespoon and a half of cumin seeds, whole cumin seeds. And when they brown a little bit, I throw the shredded cabbage into the wok, which is kind of unruly. Crank it down to about medium high and then try to toss that shit. Let it simmer and then toss it around. It'll start to shrink and shrink. And then you toss it and you toss it and you get an, uh, you know, almost soft, get that cabbage al dente, the purple cabbage. And then I hit it with probably a quarter cup plus a little more of apple cider vinegar and steam it out with the apple cider vinegar, toss it around in that, and then, uh, cover it, uh, and turn turn the heat off so it gets all soggy after it steams in the apple cider vinegar. I make that like twice a week, man. That's all. A little Mark Maron recipe

for you. So let's do some more of these horrible text emails. Do you want to? I think we've been having a pretty good time with these. Hi, Mark. I'm a personal trainer at a popular gym in Philadelphia. I meet with new people at a popular gym in Philadelphia. I meet with new people of all walks of life every day and give them one free workout to check out our program. This soft young man was 20 minutes late to the workout and then proceeded to send me a text clearly meant for his friend. I'm not losing sleep over this, but honestly, he could have apologized. All right. And here she sent a little screenshot of it. Hey, overslept a bit. I'm leaving my house now. Should be there in 20. Trainer says, okay,

thanks for letting me know. And then the other, the guy says, yo, my trainer this morning had the fattest ass, thick white John, no titties and a fat face, but legs were like whoa and then she goes wrong chat my friend and he sends four of those half confused sad faces emojis he goes well this is very embarrassing guy talk hope you understand and then she says uh that was a complete cop-out and honestly angered me more than the content of the text. Well, yeah, well, what happened? Did you stand up for yourself? This is the end of the email. You got to give me a follow-up on that.

That was it? You didn't, what, you didn't say, you know, go fuck yourself, you shouldn't talk like that. I mean, I guess men are going to talk, but I mean, wow, but that was the end of it okay all right fine that yeah that was a rude i i would not have liked that text to come at me this was a good one subject line text gone wrong thanks to wtf oh i'm involved my friend sabra and i are avid listeners our daughters are 12 and have grown up together, so our families are close. One thing we bond over is WTF. In fact, Sabra bought me your book for Christmas a couple

years back. Anyway, we always text each other if one of us has heard a specific episode or tell each other not to miss episode XYZ. Last month, I had sent her a text telling her to listen to the Terry Crews interview. I love him in most of his films, but thought the interview was riveting. What a life, right? She was surprised by my endorsement and said she would listen before we saw each other. Here's a text exchange. Sabra, just listened.

So much in that one. Some crazy shit. Then me, nothing like a porn addiction, a football career, and a WME agent grabbing your crotch. Then I'm shopping at the container store and I get a call from my 12 year old daughter's guitar teacher. He's like, hey, it's Kim, the guitar teacher. Is everything OK? I just got a text from you. Is Todd OK? Her husband. Are you OK? I said,

shit, that was meant for someone else. And then tried to explain that it was about your show and a guest, which all sounded like bullshit. And that it's Terry Crews who had the porn addiction and, and, and I was mortified. Thanks, Mark. See you down the road. Gene. Ah, sorry, Gene. Pretty funny. I think that's, I think you can recover from that one though.

I really do. All right. Look, folks, I talked to Don Cheadle about a lot of stuff, a lot of great stories. You know, a guy who's had that big a career, you know, there's a lot to cover. But we landed on some really interesting stuff. And I really, I was happy I was able to talk to him about his Miles Davis movie, Miles Ahead, which I loved. And we got off on a little bit of a talk about jazz.

So Cheadle and I had a great time, and you're going to hear it right now. His show, you know, the Black Monday show on Showtime, starts this Sunday, March 15th, season two. That's the premiere, Sunday, March 15th at 10 p.m. This is me talking to Don Cheadle. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats.

But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Be honest.

When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? See app for details. policy covering only what you need and policy started only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. What happens if the cat, if you get around? My throat closes up. Oh, no. I start hacking and wheezing. Yeah, it's bad. Oh, really?

Like, if you wanted to kill me. It's a cat? You could throw me in a room full of cats and knock the door. Oh, my God. And I probably wouldn't make it out. And you've had that the whole life? You know, I just started noticing it, like, when I was in college. Oh.

Because I don't have allergies, I don't think. But the ones that do that, like guys who have that nut allergy. Oh, yeah. When it's a wrap. Yeah. It's just like. And I started to become allergic to cut grass. Cut grass?

Which was not a thing for my whole life. How do you avoid that? You don't. You can't avoid it. And I golf. You golf? So you're just fucked. So what do you do?

Take the Claritin? You take a Claritin? You take a Claritin before. Yeah. And then you, after you're finished with the round, you kill yourself. How long have you been golfing? Oh, man. Let me see.

Is it? Probably now over 20 years. Now explain it to me because I know guys that golf and I'm condescending about it. Good. Cool. Let's go. And I'm just sort of like, what are you fucking kidding? I like that. But I understand that it's meditative and it's a solo journey and you're out there with

the cut grass, wheezing. And your people and your friends usually. Yeah. And it's a long time. So it gives you a chance to talk, out kind of uh enjoy space smoke a joint yeah and chill yeah all right and and sort of i mean the the thing for golf for me is that it really uh it just reveals who you are to yourself really in a way that it's a physical sort of a manifestation of the things that you're going through and really to me and i think a lot of

golfers would agree well okay so what what have you like you're a through. Really? To me. And I think a lot of golfers would agree. Well, okay. So what have you, you're a guy over the last 20 years has also played, you know, a broad number of different types of people that I think would show you some different aspects of yourself. But you think golf, what is it? The simplicity? What have you learned? Well, it's so challenging.

It's the hardest thing to do. It's the hardest challenging. It's the hardest thing to do. It's the hardest thing I've ever tried to do physically. Have you tried the solo climbing with no ropes? I'm black, so I don't even know what you're talking about. We don't do that kind of shit. Hey, I got an idea. Let's climb that mountain face with nothing but chalk yeah that's cool no not for you we don't do that shit um but yeah no i haven't tried that that would be infinitely

harder than golf yeah but i mean but uh but the physicality is not i guess it's difficult it is because in every other sport you know i don't know if you play any sports any other sport i've hit a ball yeah well you hit a ball. Well, you hit a ball. Sure, man. There's a physics that you get the trajectories coming and you get to move your body toward where the ball is coming. Yeah, right. There's an athleticism that allows you to sort of be in the space. A golf ball is just sitting there.

I know. It's crazy. It's so focused, man. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like, now hit that. Yeah. sitting there i know it's crazy it's so focused man yeah that's what i'm saying it's like now hit that yeah it goes from stillness to you being still and now go from still to still to hitting that and then try to move it down the fairway try to put this in a hole that's this big that's

ultimately the goal right so when you're able to do it yeah it's usually and do it well it's usually because you have been able to really sort of control all of those demons and all of that noise and all of that. You know, they show like the brainwaves for archers and target shooters and people that do that and, you know, Olympic, they did it with Olympic target shooters. And their brainwaves when they pull the trigger are like that, you know, and ours are usually pretty erratic. Yeah, on fire. Yeah.

Yeah. So when you can get into that meditative state. I get it. It feels great. Right. And you finish and you look back and go, oh, wow, that was a few hours where I was just like in the zone. In that. I can completely appreciate that.

But you don't do any meditating? Mm-hmm. You do that too? Mm-hmm. So you spend a lot of time in this state. Yeah, I try to. See, like I've been told I need to meditate too. How long have you been doing that?

I've been doing that. I kind of started that in college too. Really? A lot of stuff started for me in college. I went to CalArts, California Institute of the Arts. Yeah. And that was a very mind-opening, mind-broadening experience. What year was that?

This was 82 to 86. And where'd you come from? I'd moved right from there to California from Denver, Colorado, where I'd lived for the last seven years. But I come from Kansas City. I'm born in Kansas City, Missouri. Kansas City, Missouri. Mm-hmm. And so-

Go Chiefs. Yeah. Are you a big Chiefs fan? Yeah. You got to be, right? I don't know much about it, but I assume that you kind of lock into your states. Yeah. So you were born in Kansas City?

Mm-hmm. And your family was just there the whole time? We moved around a lot. Why? I was sort of an education brat. I wasn't a military brat. My father, you know, was- Chasing tenure?

Chasing degrees, chasing scholarship money. Chasing, I'm at grants and, you know, where do you get money? What was his focus? He's a psychologist. Really? Medical psychologist. So he sees patients. He did. He's since retired. Really? Medical psychologist. So he sees patients.

He did. He's since retired. In the house? No, never in the house. That's always the weird thing, right? The office is in the back. Especially if you ever know the dude. Because my dad, he did family and teens.

Oh, okay. So a lot of family therapy. So a lot of families in the community be like, yeah, we sent our son to your dad. Yeah. And it didn't work out. Well, I actually visited my dad at his office one one time which was right down the street from my school and i did recognize a kid that was coming out and he was like what are you doing here yeah i was just going to say hi he's like don't ever come by the office unannounced it's like jimmy is really

fucked up isn't he what did he tell you i know you guys have that client doctor thing but i'm your son come on give it up nothing nothing so he so so that's what he was doing so when you were growing up he was still getting the degree and yeah figuring that shit out and he ended up in denver to set up a practice where he finished his education yes he set up a practice in denver yeah in denver colorado man that's like it's hard to breathe there. Oh, I loved it. You did? I mean, it was amazing to be an athlete and, you know, play soccer in Denver or basketball. You're a soccer guy?

Yeah. Oh, okay. And then come to LA or come to another state and just be able to run forever and people were like, when did you, like, why are you guys winded? It's like a lifetime of training. Exactly. Limited oxygen. I had no idea that it was actually going to be beneficial down the line.

I mean, I go back now and I can't breathe at all. But when I was coming up, it was very, it helped me a lot. So you were in Denver for like from what age to what age? So from sixth grade to senior year, six years. So like 12 years old to 18 years old. And so that's like kind of your state in a way. I mean, that's formative years. Formative years. You have a love for kind of your state in a way. I mean, that's formative years. Formative years.

You have a love for Colorado? I do have a love for Colorado. My family, my dad still lives there. My brother and sister still live there and nieces and nephews. So you're there a lot.

I go back, yeah. So did you act in high school? Yes. You did? That's sort of where the, now the bug actually hit an elementary school

but I had a very good high school teacher, Kathy Davis, and and she you know introduced us to Uta Hagen and Stanislavski. Really? Yeah. So that was the beginning of the mind-blowing? Yeah. It wasn't it wasn't basic shit it was the real shit? Yeah she was a real she was really smart she I didn't she told me about CalArts I had no idea that you could actually pursue you could go to school and study it I was was just like, what am I going to do now? She's like, you know, you can continue your education in this field. I can't. Were both your folks around then? Yes. And were they supportive

of it? Super supportive. They drove me to school. That's the benefit of having like parents in education, parents with a broad understanding of things where they're like, yeah, just do that. They were probably a little nervous. Definitely nervous, especially for CalArts at that time. Yeah. Because it was wide open. Really? What do you mean?

Clothing optional pool. Oh, really? Co-ed rooms. And I imagine it's kind of still like that. So that was a trip there? I don't know anything about it. I don't know if I've talked to anybody who went to CalArts. Yeah, I loved it. It was like a real old school hippie school kind of deal?

Well, it was coming out of being Chouinard. It used to be Chouinard. It was an art school, specifically an art school. But is it a state school? No, not a state school. No, it's private school. Yeah. And it's just five métiers.

I think now it's maybe a little broadened, but it was just acting, dance, visual arts. Animation was a part of the film school and music. The music school was huge. Where is it? It's in Saugus. How far is that? Right across from Magic Mountain.

Oh, really? Yeah. Wild. So it's like out there. Yeah, and it's a conservatory. And yeah, you're out there. Like there's nothing else happening. Or wasn't definitely when I was there.

It's built up a little more now. But when I was was there that was it and and so you just went for acting so it's i imagine it's a bunch of fairly serious experimenting people yeah yeah in a very conservatory sort of a setting and what so each year what do you how does it work what's it what's the structure well you have classes in movement and voice and speech and then you have your studio time which is blocks out of the day then you have to then you're doing your plays you're putting those up and then you have to work work the plays so you have to do the technical stuff and the day went from and we had tai chi which was amazing so i learned tai chi it's tai chi chi was a requirement it was a it was a requirement for the first year

students so that's that kind of was the beginning of the mind opening. All of it, yeah. The beginning of all of it. And mushrooms. Mushrooms. Are you one of those guys that does those yearly? No, I haven't done that in a long time. I've kind of been like, I'd like to do that again.

Some dudes do it. They do kind of like a reboot. The microdosing stuff is very big now. Well, yeah, that's a little odd. You think that's odd? I don't know, man. I'm a sober guy. So for me, it's like, I don't know.

I just don't put any of it in. You know what I mean? It's just like, because I got the kind of brain where it's like, well, this is a little bit. I don't want to wait. Let's keep going and see what happens. Why are we stopping here? What's with the little bit? Kind of want to feel something, man.

Yeah, I'm not going to underachieve out here. Yeah, yeah. So Tai Chi, do you still do that? Yeah. Really? Mm-hmm. So between golf, Tai Chi, and meditation, you're pretty level, man? I think I'm pretty level.

I think I'm one of the most level dudes that I know. So when you're, okay, so in college, so the movement thing thing and you did, did you do like, was it like classical stuff? Oh, everything. Fencing and stuff? Yes, we did stage combat and we did everything. I mean, we're doing Shakespeare, we're doing Moliere, we're doing August Wilson, we're doing Arthur Fugard, we're doing everything. Because I was thinking about that, about the roles. yeah everything

because I was thinking about that about the roles like you know when you say like golf sort of really shows you who you are

but like you've stepped into some I have to assume and this is kind of I realized it yesterday actually I talked to

Tandy Newton yeah I know Tandy yeah and you know we were talking about that role in Westworld being

informing her about you know who she is and what her struggles are and what her fight is. So the character was perfect for her because it helped her move through things. Did you find that? Because I don't know that I've talked to actors about that specifically, the growth of self through the roles. I think so i mean if you if you take it seriously yeah you're really trying to

authentically come from a place where you can live in this person and that's what you do you have to find the place where you and the person meet i think yeah or i don't know what you're kind of doing it's like a puppet show yeah You have to really get there. Meet that person halfway. Yeah. So when you're touching that stuff, you cannot help but bring up your stuff. Right, right. And now you have to kind of filter through and go, well, I don't need that. Exactly. Let me get rid of that.

Let me not use that. That's me. That has nothing to do with this. Right. But you have to keep, I think, true to those things that are motivating you and keep touching that place. Yeah. It's a conscious thing, though, where you're like, well, that was too much me. Yeah.

Because you can slip into it, though, right? Like when you're acting, you can kind of like, that last take was me. Well, I think by the time you're actually doing it, hopefully you've had the script long enough. You've worked on it and you've kind of been able to have it be mostly not you. How much do you read the script before you get in? Yeah? The whole script or just the pieces? No, the whole script.

Really? I always find something new every time I read the script. Really? Yeah. That's wild. Can we talk about, like, I've been trying to figure out how to get into this, but I fucking loved your Miles Davis movie. Oh, movie oh thank you man i loved it and and uh you know i think i saw it twice and because i i don't it was one of those movies that you know it's sort of on you

to figure out what's he trying to do here right what's going on like and it seemed to me that it was sort of a meditation on the man himself. Right? So it's just sort of like this is an impression, man. Right? So you've run the whole arc of the Miles thing. You've got Miles who is bordering on a comedic character. You know, the main guy that you've got.

The Miles that you made. You know, he's over the top. On drugs. Fashion wise. Isolated. isolated and funny he's genuinely funny but maybe not on purpose but and then all of a sudden the young miles shows up in the form of that other cat yes and then you sort of kind of try to assess like you know well what's the riff that got him from there to here yes right yes so what so what drove you? What's your relationship with that dude? Well, I grew up listening to his music. Because your folks did?

Introduced to me by my parents, yeah, digging through their albums and finding Porgy and Bess and going, oh my God, what is this? And then that leading me to Kind of Blue and then just opening it up to Cannonball, to all of the players. But that's where it started when I was, you know, in fifth or sixth grade.

Because I'm like, in the last few years, I've started to get into those guys and that trip, you know, and try to sort of wrap my brain around jazz without really having an essential understanding of music theory or anything. Yeah. But, you know, either you've got a brain for jazz or you don't. Mm-hmm.

Right? Like, either it's going to lock in or it's going to make you go like, ah, it's making me anxious. Yeah, exactly. People do tend to get anxious sometimes about it. But, like, for me, it's just almost like riddling. You know, it goes on and I'm like, ugh. Oh, yeah.

Right? For me, yeah. So when entering, and I know this is probably an old news for you, but, like, you know, to take on the subject of that guy, I mean, what was the spark? Well, I wasn't gunning for that. I know a lot of times people are asked, actors are asked, is there some guy that you're trying to play or some woman that you really want to do or some project that you're dying to do? one that you really want to do or some project that you can't that you're dying to do he was not on my radar huh other than being some a musician that i was in love with and whose music i had grown up on right um but it kept bubbling up it kept being put in front of me in different

ways really people mentioning it and going you know what you should do and just out of nowhere just kind of out of nowhere a bunch of times. And then I was working with another, a couple of writers on another project trying to get it done and had auditioned for something and the writers mentioned it and they said, oh, we're working on this with the family. We're actually trying to write this with the family.

The Miles Davis thing. The Miles Davis biopic. And you should think about doing it. And I was like, well, I don't really like biopics. I don't want to do kind of the traditional cradle to grave kind of biopic. And you should think about doing it. And I was like, well, I don't really like biopics. I don't want to do kind of the traditional cradle to grave kind of biopic. That's just kind of corny. I don't want to do that. It's hard to do that.

I just don't think that you can take three minutes in each segment. It's weird. I just acted in the Aretha Franklin one. But it was smart because it ends at 72. And that's a smart way to do it. Yeah. Just try to take a moment and that's a smart way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Just take that,

try to take a moment and explode the moment as opposed to, and that's what I was trying to do with the movie, like take this two days in time where he's stuck in this place.

Yeah. Like am I gonna, is he ever gonna get out of this place? Yeah. So I was actually watching the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Miles was inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and Miles was inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Yeah. And his nephew, Vince Wilburn, who's one of the producers on the thing, was interviewed, and they said, are you ever going to do a movie about his life? And he said, yeah, and Don Cheadle's going to play him. Yeah, but you had no idea. No, I wasn't going to for that. And then it started coming in, and people started, you know,

it started, well, what are you going to do, and how are you going to do it? And I said, I'm not, I'm not. He just made a proclamation. I haven't even met him or talked to him. Yeah. So then we met and got together and they sort of pitched their ideas for the movie and they were all kind of standard biopics. And I just wasn't interested. Right.

And by the time I was almost at my house in the meeting, I thought, well, nobody's going to do it the way I want to do it unless I do it. meeting i thought well nobody's gonna do it the way i want to do it unless i do it yeah and as i and i called him back and he was saying i was about to call you and say nobody can do the thing that you're talking about doing unless you do it and i said yeah that's what i think it's gonna be and then a short 10 years later yeah it happened now was the family on board absolutely oh see so they dug it and that what was i mean i'm not saying like there was a slam dunk they were like in i mean there was definitely a come to jesus come to Don's trailer on House of Lies set and be like, yo, what the fuck? After they saw the script, you mean? They were like going, what is this going to be?

What are you really trying to do? And how can you not include this? And how can you not include that? How can you not include that? And I was like, I get it. And this is your uncle, your father. and this is your uncle, your father, this is, you know. I ultimately want you guys to be down with this take.

Right. And if you're not, that's fine. I'll walk away from it. We don't have to do it. Right. I said, but I don't think that any movie is going to be his legacy. Any movie is going to be his library. His legacy is barely his legacy it's very difficult character i'm saying i wanted the music and the expression like just

exactly how you laid it out that was my intention with it i said i want to make a movie in the spirit of miles davis i want to make a movie that feels like him not just a movie that's about what he did abcd right i want to like go this is what it feels like to be in that expression. That's what I'm trying to do. And that era that you picked is the best because he's jacked up. He's out of his mind. He may never come. He may never play again.

He cannot play. Vince said the first time after that period when he heard Miles play, that's that scene at the end when he's playing, he said he couldn't produce sound and he said he just cried like a baby and Miles looked at him

like don't fucking cry you know like don't pity me right and what was the record that pulled him out of that he did Man With The Horn

that was his first thing out and then he went on that We Want Miles tour that's when I actually saw Miles Davis first. Oh, so how was that? Crazy. Saw him in Red Rocks.

So that was when the horn was way out there. He had kind of, you know, he was fucking with it. Playing down with the wah-wah pedal and all that stuff. But I mean, the wah-wah he had introduced in the 60s. Right. But it was that band that was just Mike Stern and Harvey Mason and another Bill Evans. Not that Bill Evans, but the Bill Evans played. Was Marcus Allen? Marcus Miller.

Miller? Yeah. I saw Marcus Miller do an evening of miles at Lincoln Center recently, of electric miles. It was pretty great. it's pretty great. Yeah, he and Marcus were very close collaborators. Yeah, and I don't see a lot of jazz, but what I love about watching jazz, like if you get a bunch of guys up there

and they're doing this thing, and you got a few different horn players, and they're laying down the bass of a Miles riff, is that like, there's no other music where a dude will step up and do his thing and get out there and other dudes

are just standing around kind of looking at their horn kind of waiting yeah and this guy's like in outer space yeah

and they're kind of like you know fucking around and just kind of like looking at him well that's so Miles-esque right like I mean he used to let Coltrane

solo for 10 minutes. Yeah, yeah. And they would be like, why are you letting this dude go? Why are you letting him do that? Miles would be like, he's looking for something. He's searching for something. Let him go, man.

Oh, my God. It's so wild. Because I've been listening to him too lately. Oh, I mean, that's. But he did get so far out there. Yes, he did. Right? Yeah. Because I never put it together. The Thelonious Monk, I mean, that's... But he did get so far out there. Yes, he did. Right? Yeah.

Because I never put it together. Thelonious Monk, I think, really opened him up. He said Miles started it, but when he started playing, Monk just let him go like bananas. It's so weird because he stopped the dope early on, like Coltrane did. Like, you know, early. He was like, I'm done with that shit. There was a fight between him and Miles. That's why Miles kicked him out of his band.

For the dope, right. Yeah,'m done with that shit. Well, that was a huge fight between him and Miles. That's why Miles kicked him out of his band. For the dope, right. Yeah, because I watched that documentary. And then he goes on to sort of like, all right, if there's no dope and I got to get there. Spirit, God, religion. I'm going way out on one. Right. And some of the concert footage of him towards the end of his life, it's out there, man. Like, you really got to be on board to hold on to that.

I mean, and the amount of music that these guys have. Yeah. You know, the amount of, it's classical music on the fly. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like being able to play these changes in, you know, milliseconds. It's crazy. And bring all of that music in quoting classical they can

quote classical stuff yeah playing it they're like yeah i got all the classical shit i grew up playing right yeah that's what we that's how i learned that's how i know this yeah yeah because some people that when i was doing this and now when you talk about miles they don't know miles pre the electric stuff they don't know the bebop they don't know any of that stuff and then there are other guys who like that's when we stopped when he went electric that. They don't know the bebop shit? They don't know any of that stuff. Oh, that's wild. And then there are other guys who are like, that's when we stopped. When he went electric, that's when we got off the bus. So it's a very bifurcated sometimes

sort of Miles fan base out there. It's a lot of death metal dudes know, quote, Miles. Sure. Know all of his shit. Yeah, I bet. From that moment on. From the electric. Yeah, from the electric on, they're like,

whoa, that's when I really liked Miles Davis. So when you're out here at Cal Art, and you're blowing your mind, you're learning how to stage combat, Tai Chi, mushrooms, and you knew about Uta Hagen going in, but was there, who was the teacher there, what was the basis of your acting education? Well, all of the instructors there did both know did both a lot of the instructors would actually you know direct as well okay so

everyone was involved yeah everyone's involved real conservatory paul terlu floramonte libby apple you know they still out there no do you go out there ever and i go i'm on the board so i go yeah but um i loved the school. I loved the conservatory nature of it. I loved just being completely consumed by it. All day. All day. No other thing.

You didn't need to learn anything else. All day. I mean, I wish I had taken advantage of everything that the school had to offer. Not that there was a ton of time to do it. Yeah. And not that even at that time did they have any real interdisciplinary sort of programs. Yeah. Everyone was sort of balkanized in the only thing that time did they have any real interdisciplinary sort of programs. Everyone was sort of balkanized in the only thing that they did.

Right. But it would have been great to go back there and really get into the music program. They have a world music festival every year that's like mind-blowing. Yeah. And then the dance school is amazing. Yeah, wow. And Alvin Ailey comes through. There's so many things happening at that school at any given moment.

I don't take in enough dance. Do you? Not enough, no. But I take in some. Yeah. I don't, it's like, it's a whole other world.

All these things are this other world but it's so vital and when you watch it you get moved. You don't even know why you get moved. Yeah,

because I think at that level when you see professionals doing it at that level, it's all kind of, it's not the same thing by any means. I'm not saying that visual art is the same thing as dancing, it's the same thing as acting, but when people are at their highest sort of, you know,

the apotheosis of whatever they're doing, it just translates. You just feel it. Yeah, they've done the work. They've paid the dues. And now they are an instrument of whatever it is they are doing. That's right. And they are giving it to you. Exactly.

Yeah, and you can feel it. Right, exactly. Yeah, man. I mean, that's something to be said about that because there's a lot of fucking amateurs around. 100. Let's name them one by one. Let's start with A. It's a long list.

Hold on. Let's start with A. It's a long list. Hold on. Let me just open Twitter. So once you finish school out there, you just come to LA? Yep. I graduated in 86. I was working. I had started working in 85, though. I had actually gotten a gig before I got out of school.

How did that happen? Did someone come looking? It happened because my classmate in my second year is Jesse Borrego, who was on Fame, and he got on Fame, the TV show. He got on Fame because he went to an open call, and out of about 3,000 people, they picked him and Nia Long. Not Nia Long, sorry, Nia Peoples.

And we took him to the audition. You drove out there? We all went. We were all going to bum rush it. We're like, okay, well, let's do this. So we all went down and Jesse was like, Don, sing first. Don't dance first. You're a better singer.

You can sing. Don't dance. And I danced first and I didn't get it. But he, so we get back to Cal Arts. I was like, how'd it go? He's like, it's moving all right. I don't know. Pretty good.

Yeah. So the next morning we wake up and his picture's on the news. Really? They have a Polaroid of him on the news. They're like, we're looking for this guy. Yeah. Because they just took Polaroids. He didn't put his, all he put on was Jesse.

He didn't put a name. He didn't put anything. So, you know, we saw him in class. We're like, your picture was on the news. We're looking for you. Like a missing person? Yeah. He's like, his, all he put on was Jesse. He didn't put a name. He didn't put anything. So, you know, we saw him in class. We're like, your picture was on the news. Like a missing person? Yeah. He's like, yeah, right. I said, no, someone's, they're looking for you on the news.

Yeah. So he finally, you know, our phone rings. We're all suite mates. Yeah. The phone rings. I pick it up. He's like, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

Okay, cool. He hangs up. He's like, I got the job. Wow. He's like, you got what job? He's like, fame. I got the fame job. We're like, are you serious oh man so we he goes yeah i gotta go down and sign papers and

i meet an agent and i guess it's on yeah so we have to go to class and we're standing in class doing our like and looking at each other like why are we doing this? He just got out. He just bounced. He's out. Yeah. And so he left and he, so, but he still like didn't have a car, didn't have a ride. So we're still, all of us were very, my friends at school, all of us, we were really, really tight. Yeah. Kind of went anywhere, everywhere together.

But that's interesting. So, you know, there is that moment of sort of like, you know, that's what you want to do. You know, he got the job and you're doing your training. But there was never any, in your mind, there was never anything like a lofty pursuit? Like, I don't want to do TV, or I'm a theater guy. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, we, and the school discouraged it, I think, rightly so, during, they did not want you going down to L.A. to try to book auditions. That's why they built the school out there. It's all the way up there. It's in Saugus. Don't go down there. Yeah, yeah. But no, yeah, absolutely.

I'll never do a commercial. I don't want to do TV. I want to do theater. So wild, right? Yeah. And I did. I mean, I used to, when I first met, when I first had agents who were his agents, because when they met us, they were like, well, you guys are all great.

So yeah, what is the jump of that story? So we took him down. We went to meet an agent. The agent wasn't there at the appointment time. So we were leaving. As we were leaving, he and I and another friend of mine, Patrick, were like, no fake fighting in the court and doing like our stage combat shit outside

around the fountains on 9000 Sunset. Yeah. And she's like banging on the window, like, you know, the graduate. Don't leave, don't leave. She comes down. And because I think because she came down and she was outside

and she was like kind of in our environment and how we were, we weren't all tight. Right. How we would have all been probably if we'd been up in the room and all nervous. So she showed up and you guys had left her and she was like kind of in our environment and how we were we weren't all tight right how we would have all been probably in the room and all nervous so she showed up and you guys had left her and she saw you being in her thing she's like you guys you this is a vibe you guys are great i want to represent all of you no shit you're like okay yeah so i went back to school jesse went and did the show and they shot in new y for a summer and I was in New York that same summer

working at a camp in Scarsdale working at like a kids camp I was a counselor at a kids camp drama teaching no just a camp counselor how the hell did that happen

because my friend was like I can get you a camp counselor gig in New York you want to spend a summer in New York I was like sure the Jewish camp no I don't think it was

a Jewish camp okay although they did call me. No. But so I saw him in New York and he goes, you haven't called Kay. You haven't called our agent. She's been trying to put you and stuff. I was like, oh, I didn't think she was serious.

He goes, yeah, she was serious. I was like, oh, I'll call her when I get back to L.A. So I was just sort of her pocket client. And me and a couple other people there. And she just started sending us out. And then we started booking shit. But you didn't do commercials? Is that what you're going to say?

The first commercial I ever got was an AT&T commercial. And it was one where a kid was on the phone. And his parents called. And he's in college. And he's frantically searching around around and they're going, how's it going in school? And he's acting like they can't hear him because the connection is bad. And he's like, oh, you can't hear me? And that was AT&T commercial. Right, sure.

So I'm like, boom, I booked it. I'm headed out to go shoot it. Yeah. The pay phone in the lobby of the dorm rings. Yeah. Which could be for anybody in the entire dorm. I just have this sick feeling like it's for me. So I pick up the phone and it's my agent.

She's like, oh, so glad you answered. I said, what? She goes, they don't want to use you for the commercial. I said, why not? She goes, they don't want to portray a black kid as failing out of school. I said, so they're going to fire the black kid? I understand, but it seems kind of counterintuitive if they're trying to hurt black people to

hurt this black people. But that was the first commercial I got. And then I never did a commercial for many, many years. Isn't it weird how things have shifted around people's perception of selling out? Yeah. It's a strange thing, because I think, I don't know, I think we're roughly the same age, probably.

Maybe you're a little younger. I'm 56. But there certainly was a time as a talent or an artist or whatever early on where you're like, fuck that shit, man. Oh, for sure. Punk rock all the way, no selling out. Yeah.

But now it's like people will fucking do anything as long as they look all right i yeah right like you know if they can transcend the bullshit make it funny or make it cute you know their game yeah to do whatever yeah i'm not sure exactly when that happened but it happened i think this sort of being platform agnostic helped all of that stuff you know once movie actors were doing TV shows and once commercials, they're like, oh, so. Because you remember when stars would sneak off to Japan? Absolutely. To do commercials?

Yeah. And you'd see these weird commercials of like big movie stars selling yogurt. Yeah, exactly. The fuck? Yeah. Hey, that guy just made a billion dollars in Japan. Would you do it out here?

Hell no. No, man. There's no place to hide now. Yeah. Can't hide. No, exactly. So what was the first role? The first role I ever got was to play

Juicy Burger Worker in the movie Moving Violations. Oh, Juicy Burger. Juicy Burger Worker. Juicy Burger Worker. I didn't see that movie. You didn't? I'm sorry, man. I was gonna go back and watch all your movies.

No, this was fun. Okay. And I just walked out. Fuck you. Fuck your podcast. No, man. I'll see. I'll watch it now.

We'll watch it together. Please don't. No, we'll watch it together. Please don't watch that movie. Can you watch it? No. I don't watch anything I'm in. I mean, if I have to sometimes to look at cuts and things like that, but I don't watch anything I'm in. Ever? I mean, if I have to sometimes, you know, to look at cuts and things like that, but

I don't enjoy it, no. What does it make you feel? Are you the kind of guy that, like, you watch yourself and you feel you can go back into that moment and then you rejudge the moment? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's not just a general, like, oh, I suck. It's just sort of like, I could have hit it a little harder. And why'd they pick that take? Yeah. All of that. But you were in Colors. I was. Was that like, that was, it was a, I can't remember the role, but it wasn't huge, right?

Rocket. Rocket. One of the gang guys? Yeah. And that was Dennis Hopper? He was Pivotal. Pivotal gang guy. Yes.

Okay. But Dennis Hopper. Yeah, Dennis Hopper. Directed it. He did. I remember being very excited about that movie. And Haskell Wexler shot it. Yes. Okay. But Dennis Hopper. Yeah, Dennis Hopper. Directed it. He did. I remember being very excited about that movie. And Haskell Wexler shot it. Wow.

Yeah. And I remember being very excited to see Hopper direct again. So you're working with Penn. Mm-hmm. And you got to, now when you're like that, he's like how, he's my age. He's not that older than us. No. But he was the shit, right, for a long time.

We, you know, and we were, because he was in character all the time, there had been some things where we were like, Sean had like roughed the dude up for real, kind of on set and in character. And he had done, and he and Robert, there was a scene where my friend has played high top, Glenn Plummer played high top, and they get in a fight. And there was some real shit that happened in the fight. We were just like waiting for that to happen. Because we were just going to all jump him if something happened. Oh, really?

We were like, oh, it's on if this dude does it. Because like three of my friends were in the movie. And we're like, we're going to fuck this dude up if this shit happens. So all in character, though? Sure. We were going to be like, we're in character, too. Sorry, man. It's method shit.

Yeah, we were all in character. We were just all like. Beat shit out of you. Shot you you in character was there a learning curve were you like nervous about it uh like working with directors like you know i was working with the gangbangers i wasn't worried about the directors and the actors i was like i'm working with gangbangers for real gang members like that would really gangbang on you for real. So they used the real dudes in that movie? I remember one of the guys in my gang, his name was J-Bone. I don't know if Jeffrey's still around. I hope he is.

But the first day, I get in my wardrobe. I'm sitting out on this bench. We're just getting ready, getting dressed to do this big group scene. Yeah. So I'm sitting by myself just trying to be in character, trying to figure this shit out. And I see this dude across the parking lot. And he looks at me. And I look at him.

And he looks at me like, oh, you're going to stare at me? And he walks across the parking lot staring at me. And I'm like, oh, this is a real one. Yeah. And I'm supposed to be the head of the gang I can't really punk out right now right this is a this is a moment that's really gonna be telling about it's gonna go so he walks all the way up to me he's like what's up cuz I was like what's up he's like what set

you from I said oh I'm an actor I'm an actor he's like oh yeah it's like yeah he's like all right so see what the fuck actor. He's like, oh, yeah? I was like, yeah. He's like, all right. Let's see what the fuck was up. I was like, and he walked away. I was like, fuck, day one. Day one. So then we have a scene.

Oh, my God. Yeah. This is day one. So then we have a scene in the van where I'm supposed to tell him, we do a drive-by on this blood, and they're all hoo-rah-ing in the back, and I'm supposed to tell them to shut the fuck up because we're getting ready to do this thing yeah so we rehearsed it i'm like shut the fuck up so and it's late in the morning you know it's late we're punched everybody's like tired we want to go home it's where we are though we're using this gang that we're using yeah we're in another gang's neighborhood it's a whole thing the locations

people had no sensitivity to where we were crossing lines none of that shit what was do you find that well that's just a question about the drug do you think hopper was encouraging the chaos okay hell no okay no nobody really once we realized it was like oh this is beef this can really be a problem yeah we were like what's up Jaybo and he's like we and you know we in Denver lines area we're not supposed to be out here right now oh so anyway we're doing the scene and i tell him to shut the fuck up and then he starts laughing he's like shut the man you sound soft as fuck shut the fuck up it's like a little bitch shut the fuck up nigga please and so i was like no for real jay won't shut the fuck up because

we have to do this he was like what and he leans he's in the back seat and he leans up in my ear he's like I'll smoke you in this fucking car right now cuz I think I give a fuck about this movie I think I'll kill you right now I was like oh and he and I'm like I know he's good for it I know he's not just talking shit yeah he probably would do it right everybody gets quiet in the car I'm like oh man I'm man. I'm like, J-Bone, it's my line. I'm on a set. You're in a movie. I have to say this.

He's like, say it again. See what happens. I dare you, nigga. Say it again. I have to say it. What are you talking about? So we go back. Action.

Cut. Don, what's up? You didn't say the line. I'm like, no, it's okay. Go back. He's laughing. He's like, it's it's okay go back he's laughing he's like yeah that's right you better not say it I have to say it so we do it one more time and I kind of get it out yeah he doesn't say anything and he's getting out of the car he's like you punk motherfucker you better be off the set before I get out of my costume I'm like god damn I'm gonna

get killed on a movie set your second movie second movie'm going to lose my life saying a line that I have to say in the movie. Yeah. So I hustle off the set. But after that, I think because I said it, he was like, you're all right, man. He just had to sweat me. And then another day, he takes my call sheet. He's like, let me see your call sheet. I give him the call sheet.

He starts walking toward this alley. Like, where are you going, J-Bone? He's like, he's kind of gesturing me just kind of gesturing me like follow me i'm like oh man it's the okey-doke it's about to go down in the alley so we go in the alley and there's this older black lady standing there dressed like in church clothes and everything he's like it's my mom's man oh hello mrs washington how are you nice to meet you and he's like yeah i just wanted you to meet my mom he's like that's it come on get the fuck out of here he couldn't just say i'll come meet my mom like everything's got to be yeah hard yeah yeah yeah that's fucking amazing yeah so that's sort of uh that's an interesting entry into trial by fire yeah for sure crucible and then you just you kept you just kept going, man.

And so when do you think the point was where everybody knew who you were? Was that from Devil in a Blue Dress? I don't know if that's happened yet. Oh. I can still roll around pretty incognito. That's a good thing. No, I love it. Oh, man.

Are you kidding me? Just to be able to work like you do, have the respect that you do. Okay. Oh, shit. What the fuck was that, dude? Maybe we were supposed to change the subject. Whoa. We just, for everybody listening, we just went black.

But not all of it went black. It was the lights because it- Oh, you were still up and going? Well, for some reason, the computer and shit was still on, but the mics went down and the lights went off. Yeah. But the box is in here. That's some weird shit.

Poltergeist. Huh. So, oh, but we were talking about- But should we change the subject? Is that a sign? Well, we were talking about being able to be incognito. Dude. To be able to have a life.

Maybe that's the word you're not supposed to say. That would fit. It was like Beetlejuice. Maybe my phone did it. I don't even know what my phone does. Shut off everything. Exactly. It's like when you ever turn on Siri and you don't know it, and it's all of a sudden talking

to you. Yeah, that's not good. I just told it to shut the lights off in the house. But no, but that's a, but I think that, because I actually did watch Devil in a Blue Dress the other night because people I've talked to, they're like,

that was the first time I remember that dude. Right. I mean, I think I got a lot of that. I think that's, I think people said that. I think Boogie Nights. Yeah. There were a few sort of things kind of in a row.

And depending on who you were, you know, it's like for some it was picket fences. For some people it was just a pit. But you never, so that was the other thing too. Like you'll do TV. It's like right from the beginning, back and forth, whatever comes. If the role is good, you'll take it.

Exactly. And I used to, like I was saying earlier, I used to drive my agents, when I realized I had agents, crazy because the first few years that I was in L.A. during pilot season, I left to go do theater. Yeah. And they were like, what are you doing? This is the height of when we can get you a gig.

I was like, there's this great role. What was it? In this play? Well, I was working a lot with Joanne Acolytis. Yeah. And worked at the Guthritis yeah uh and worked at the guthrie with her worked at the public yeah worked at the goodman in chicago so being a theater baby these were all you know sort of the crown jewels of places that i wanted to work yeah as an actor

so i'm like i'm not gonna say no to going to work at the public right to maybe get a pilot on some show that it's probably going to be shitty isn't that true though like isn't that weird once you realize that that you're going to go out and read for these pilots and you're going to go spend five minutes in a room with a bunch of suits and then you're going to you have to go back again three or four times for three weeks of bullshit and then not get something where you can be on stage doing the thing that i loved yeah yeah i was like i don't that doesn't even make sense to me they're like well this is not get something where you can be on stage doing the thing that I loved. Yeah. Yeah. I was like,

I don't, that doesn't even make sense to me. They're like, well, this is the grind. This is what it is. You have to do that. I was like,

well, I'll get to it. I don't think Hollywood's going anywhere. I'll be back in three months, but I'm gonna go do this. Do you remember what play it was? Did Cymbeline at the public. Yeah.

Uh, Tis pity. She's a whore at the Goodman. Oh, with the Guthrie. I did a show called Leon and Len's Bushner Play. Yeah. So you were really doing it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then I worked a bunch at another small theater in Minneapolis called Mixed Blood that I just loved. So I just kept going back there and doing stuff. Yeah. And all during, like, the busy, busy season. But I drive across, you know, I drive from here to Minneapolis by myself. Another really sort of solo journey.

I just loved every aspect of that time in my life. Yeah. And I didn't have to make any money. You know, if I made $500 a week, I was like, that's good. Well, it's nice. I think that's probably why you're the actor you are in the sense that, like, you know, you didn't pollute your brain with the sort of like putting the ambition over the craft do you know what i mean like just sort of like fuck i'll take let's just work man yeah like you really appreciate it's not i think it seems

like this your character in the sense or who you are it's like with golf you know to sort of like to to to focus on like i'm gonna drive out i got i'm working the thing i'm on my own looking at the stuff yeah i'm gonna show up at me yeah do you when you go to the theater for the first time I focus on like I'm going to drive out. I'm working the thing. I'm on my own looking at the stuff. Yeah. Going to show up. Looking at me. Yeah. When you go to the theater for the first time, do you go walk around?

Oh, yeah. The stage. It's the best, right? It is the best. It's the best. When I do stand-up, man, like the sound check when you just walk out. Right. Sometimes I'll have them play some music on the system and just sit there by myself and listen to the music.

No, there's nothing like a theater. Oh, it's the best. There's nothing like a theater. Real theater. The magic that happens in there. It's the best. But Boogie Nights, like, you bring up Boogie Nights, and, like, that moment where you're sitting there with that James wig on.

That's a great moment. That's a great moment. That was a great directing moment for Paul. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Why would he? Because he's like, okay okay so we're sitting he goes okay i'm in this spot he goes all right so in this take you're just kind of sitting there

just like out of your element like second guessing this look because i just i i want you to just don't do anything just do nothing yeah i was like okay yeah so i do it and he goes cuts he comes over he goes that take you were kind of doing nothing. Yeah. I just want nothing. Like just a blank. I just want you to be nothing, just nothing. Why?

I was like, be nothing. He's like, yeah, just nothing. So he walks off. I'm going, be nothing? What is he talking about? Be nothing. I'm sitting there trying to figure out what that means. And he's like, cut, thank you.

He's like, got it. I was like, oh, you little master, you. And that's how it read, dude. It was in koan to me. It just read like, yeah, exactly, like there's just. Yeah, and it was. It was so like. Vapid.

It was sad, though. Yeah, oh yeah. Like it was that moment where you're like, this guy doesn't know who he is. He has no idea that you really thought that that's what you should wear. You really thought that's what you should wear. I know.

You're like, you know what? This one. Poor Buck. Oh man, I was on the phone. We were talking about you coming over I said it. Poor Buck. Oh, man. I was on the phone. We were talking about you coming over, and I just said, oh, is that for the Christmas? For the Christmas. Yeah.

Yeah. Another horrible moment. Oh, yeah. And then like, yeah, yeah. I just worked with that guy, that stunt dude who shoots, who starts it all off, who's the dude sitting at the counter who pulls the gun and shoots the guy in Black Monday. It was funny. Oh, you did?

Yeah, he's a big stunt dude. Oh, those guys are wild. I've interviewed a couple of them. Yeah. But like Paul Thomas Anderson, like I've interviewed that dude. It's so funny, man, because- He's great. He's great, but like, you, but I never heard him talk.

I didn't know who he was. Oh, I knew who he was. I loved his movies, but I just had this idea that he was some brooding, dark genius. But he's just valley goofball. Yeah. He's just like this. I couldn't believe it. No, he's amazing.

And Carl introduced him to me, Carl Franklin, who directed Devil in a Blue Dress. Yeah. And he was in that, because that year, who directed Devil in a Blue Dress. Yeah. And he was in that, because that year I think I did three or four movies. I may have done three or four movies. I don't remember. Yeah. Did Rosewood that same year and Boogie Nights and something else.

That year I think was sort of a watershed kind of year. I had just quit. Your agents must have been happy that you locked into that shit, right? Well, I was doing Picket Fences for three years before that. And then I just quit the show because have been happy that you locked into that shit well I was doing Picket Fences for three years before that and then I just quit the show because I didn't like the show

and they were like they were not happy about that right just like you're quitting a series that you're locked in job

I was like I just don't dig it I just think there's something else I'm gonna do and I could be here for the rest of my life I don't wanna do this

I'm the 12th person in the cast which means A I was the heart of the movie which is the heart of the show which don't want to do this. I'm the 12th person in the cast which means A, I was the heart of the movie which is the heart of the show which don't make me

the heart of the show. I hate that. And secondly, I'm the dude that's sort of like there would be so many days where they just

wouldn't get to me and I had sat in the trailer for 12 hours just wanting to blow my head off. Thank God I was writing or I would have

just killed myself. It's weird you go inward with the anger I just get mad at whoever the AD the fucking you know whoever is taking up the time

the director like what the fuck is happening the director's like I don't know I'm here I won't be here next week they just drop me into this shit right right right

we're trying to get lit. How long does that take? Talk to the DP. I would just write. So I wrote a play and I just spent the time just writing. Oh, really? So you produced a lot of your own plays and stuff? Yeah.

I mean, I did that one at that time. Oh. Which one was that? It was a play nobody would ever, nobody ever saw. It was called Groomed. We actually performed it at the John Anson Ford Theater. It was a staged reading. It turned into a play because the actors decided like, no, we're going to actually get off book and do this.

I was like, fuck. It was not the play. So once the lead actor did it, kind of threw down the gauntlet. Then all the other actors were like, well, we're not going to, if he's not on book, I'm not going to be on book. And the ego started jumping out. And then the lighting person was like, well, if they're going to do all that, I'm going to throw some gels in the shit and some gobos. And the person was like, well, I'm going to build a set if you guys are going to do all that. And it turned into a play.

Wow. Which was really great. That must have been wild to watch that. It was wild. So, I mean, because all that stuff kind of informs, right? Because, I mean, like when you did the Miles movie, I don't know how much other ones you directed before that, but that thing's got a full vision.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, you hired the right folks. You knew what you wanted to see. Whoever your DP was and your set deck. Roberto Schaefer. Fucking nailed it. It's his own world. Yeah.

You know, slightly heightened. Yeah. Like, what's going on? but uh all right yeah so yeah you were busy Rosewood Boogie Nights out of sight oh yeah right all really close to each other right the Rat Pack Sammy Davis what compelled you to do that movie um well the same thing that compels me to do any of them just the part was great I liked the part I liked the script I like the cast that was another interesting i don't know if i have any that aren't interesting but that one i didn't i was offered the part and they never the script had never really dealt with yeah sammy's own awareness of the racism uh-huh it just sort of glossed over that and I was like you can't have him not be aware of not just

the racism that exists outside but what he's dealing with with his own friends inside the Rat Pack you know the kind of ribbing that they do and the kind of ways that they talk shit about him it's like that was nowhere in the script about how Sammy felt about that and you read his autobiographies and it's nowhere in that

he never really talks about it well what was the assumption i i was like i don't care i'm he has to when i watch the routines like i'm looking at him like no come on you can't be a black man up there and then picking you up and talking about this being an award from the naacp and you not feeling some kind of way about it some nights like can we not do that joke tonight you know can we not when i've looked at all these black people in the audience like you pick me up and especially at that time you know because this shit was changing right absolutely and he was at the sharp you know edge of the spear about it so i said i kind of don't this has to be a part of the script or i don't i don't want to do this this has to be in there so it wasn't addressed it wasn't addressed in like two weeks before i got a draft

and it was in there i said okay i'll do it and they're like great now you have to do a gun less gun twirling lessons drum lessons trumpet lessons tap lessons you have to sing on this thing i was like oh shit i got two weeks to like get ready yeah for this which holy shit yeah it was cram cram cram but i had the best teacher savion glover was my tap instructor really yeah and then could you do it i could do it when i needed to for that yeah isn't that weird when you've got that you know you can focus your talent that's right and that's some of that acting shit that we learned in school. That's kind of that, like, let's go. Yeah.

And it shows up and you do it. And then two weeks later, you're like, it's gone. I couldn't, yeah, I wouldn't remember how to do it at all. Just possessed. Yes, exactly. What did you come out of that with for yourself? Just a real appreciation of his talent. Oh, yeah, right?

And how amazing, just being able to dig into all of his stuff, you know, doing the research on him. You talk about a talent. Right? Everything. Everything. It's crazy. At a high level. Yeah, it's really like a gifted dude. And to hear them talk about Sinatra, whenever he would introduce him, he's like, I'm about to bring this kid on stage and he's going to...

You could just see he was like, this kid, you think I can sing? He's like, you don't know shit about singing. You got to listen bring this kid on stage and he's gonna you could just see he's like this kid Yeah, I think I can sing he's like you don't know shit about singing you gotta listen to this kid He's gonna hit some notes that are gonna make you just well It's interesting to know like when you really look at all those guys that there was a sort of Not one note nests to them, but they were so dug into their personalities that they were confining But they were so dug into their personalities that they were confining. Where like Sammy was, you know, he was Sammy, but it didn't confine him in any way. No. To sing or dance or drum or whatever the fuck.

Be funny. I mean, it was like kind of. And sort of like you had to. I mean, I think that's something, too, that for that era, for a black man, a black woman especially, you know, it's like you had to be 10 times as talented as anybody else you were standing, you had to be able to do everything to get half as far as a lot of those guys could get. Right.

And still be sort of like pigeonholed in a racist way. Yeah, you're still not gonna get ahead. And take it. But also like take the joke. That's what I'm saying. That's what I wanted to be, that's what wasn't in this.

And ultimately what it turned out to be is just a moment i said we need can i just have a moment where they can make the joke and i'm laughing and then i turn around and just put a camera behind me to see how i really feel and then i can come back and put the mask on again and they did it yeah we did it and i was like i just need stuff like that I just need to show that this person is not completely obtuse and doesn't understand what he has, the Faustian deal he has made to be able to do this and open the door for other people behind him, which is absolutely what he did. But that means you're going to take the brunt of it.

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's been a Faustian deal still. For sure. Yeah. I forgot you're's been a Faustian deal still. For sure. Yeah. I forgot you were in traffic. That was great. That's great.

And Bo Worthy worked with that Beatty fella. Yeah, that dude. That must have been wild. He seems like an interesting dude. Very interesting dude. And we shot that for, I mean, a year off and on for a year. He means business, it seems. When he decides to direct something, it's like it's not and nobody can tell him shit and his deal specifically at that time and it was maybe a

poison pill left by the last uh the guy who ran 20th at that time yeah he had a deal that he just had to write a treatment yeah and turn it in yeah and he could do whatever he wanted oh wow and i think they sort of left it oh really deal with warren because he hated the dude coming in yeah and they used to call me and ask me what was going on. Because when the suits would show up on set, Warren would just stop. He just wouldn't shoot. Really? He'd just stand there.

And they're like, what are you working on? He's like, I got some stuff. Wow. So you going to shoot there? He's like, no. And he didn't care. He would just stand around until they left. And as soon as they left, we'd start working again.

It's so funny. I guess that dude's earned that. He's Hollywood, man. He was there at the beginning of the new thing. There's so many things that you realize that actually you can do

whatever you want. A lot of times, people just don't. If you have the balls to do it. Yeah, if you can do it, stop me. But yeah, I thought that movie was good.

You know, it's like you definitely felt the point. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So being part of these franchises, I mean, is there, I mean, it seems like the Ocean thing is fun. It's a lot of fun.

I mean, like they all, everybody seems to be having a good time. So much fun. And you know, people, like Ocean's 12 is one of the movies that people will just come up to me in my face. Is that the Andy Garcia one? I hate that. Oh God, I hated that second one. That one sucked.

Yeah. I was like, okay, cool. Well, they don't think they're- Can I come watch whatever you're doing at your job and like critique but it's like they don't think they're gonna like they don't look at it in the same way you look like they're just i don't know why people think they can do that but they think you must feel the same way or that you have some distance from it or whatever i don't give a shit what you think right you're not a real thing you're sort of a prop that yeah yeah stuff and walks around. Yeah. But that was Jerry Weintraub, bless his soul, produced that one really like old Hollywood.

Yeah, yeah. We just were treated amazingly and everybody had their families over. Oh, that's nice. It was nice to be able to have that experience. And we were really sort of cordoned off. I mean, paparazzi is an italian word right we were we were in italy and they had to kind of give us an entire floor where nobody could come and they had the roof and they would put a there was a bar up there and it's a real first class hollywood treatment yeah nice it was great and what about these marvel

movies they're fun too yeah in? In different ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's a different, it's completely different, obviously. Yeah. Super technical and a lot more. But did you see that coming? Oh, hell no. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, like you're in, you're one of the guys.

Yeah. Yeah, it happened. And it's a great thing, right? Yeah. I don't watch them and I've been critical of them because it's not my thing. Yeah. But, so I haven't really seen any of them, but it seems like the people that are in them because it's not my thing yeah but so I haven't really seen any of them

but it seems like the people that are in them it's like why the fuck wouldn't I yeah I mean and it's again it's one of those things where

we all you know we all really vibe each other and have a great time around one another yeah and there's so many of us you know

it's like it's like being a troupe it's it is it's crazy it's like a theater troupe It's like being a troupe. It is. It's crazy. It's like a theater troupe. It's like its own little community.

It is. And then I guess it seems that, well, just from what I see publicly, that the experience of Hotel Rwanda kind of blew your mind to a point where it activated you on a level you probably didn't even know was in you. 100%. What did you know before you did the movie about the genocide?

Very little. See, isn't that wild? Very little. And then I started to do the research and then saw the front line piece on it, which was devastating, and just started meeting. I met Paul Recessa-Beginna, who came out,

who I portray in the movie, and I got to meet him. Just getting into the story was uh yeah i didn't know anything about it i only had cursory knowledge of it and then it then it was yeah it took me to a completely different place and then doing it and seeing the effect that it had on people whose stories hadn't been told and people who you know the survivors of the genocide a lot of them were extras in the film and i couldn't believe they wanted to be a part of it yeah and they were saying no we want it out we want the story to be known and it's important to us and we want to participate in it and it's a cathartic you know it's a healing for us in a way too uh to go through it oh man it's just like your neighbors yeah people you know right yeah well that's that is somewhat emblematic of how these things go

yeah around the world uh-huh it's very often your neighbor it's very often people that you are commingling with in different communal situations. And then they've turned to each other. All of a sudden you're the other. That's right. You've been otherized and it's on. Yeah, otherizing business. That's a good word for it.

Is that your word? No, I can't take credit for it. But that's really what it is. Because we're seeing it everywhere now. Absolutely. Everywhere. That's what you have to do in order to be able to do what you need to do dehumanizing them enough to your thing if i turn you into the thing i can do anything i can get rid of you yeah yeah and nobody's gonna care yeah so how are you active

now with that stuff well i still uh work with the sentinel uh where we uh one of the things that we did at the time and are still doing is there is a satellite that, you know, goes over that area in Sudan and Darfur. And we were able to piggyback on that and capture images from what's happening in the border. Oh, really? When there are raids and there are things. At that time, we're just warehousing this material and trying to collect evidence in case there ever was a moment when ass has happened. Yeah. Bashir is now going to The Hague to be tried for these crimes against humanity and for genocide. But at the time, that was not happening. We were trying to pressure the world community community to act and now it finally has yeah years later

after like now all the information's in cia involvement whatever the fuck was happening a lot everything was happening you know and they were our allies at one point quote unquote right because we were getting intel from them about you you know, terrorism. So it was a blind eye to whatever you're doing to your citizens as long as we're getting information that we need to fight terrorism. There's got to be some assets involved there too. It's got to be something. It's all crazy. And then the main rebel leader then becomes the head of the government.

It's just all mixed up. And again, this is not something that is unheard of when these incidents happen. There's always other actors involved that have their own agendas. And the people are always the ones in the middle that are just getting swiped around and bandied about. Yeah, there's a detachment on behalf of the power, right? Like, you know,

there's the immediacy of the, the murdering, but then, you know, a couple, whoever else is involved there, if there's enough detachment, they,

it's just numbers. It don't matter. Yeah. And who steps in to that void once that, once that bad guy's gone, now who are the good guys are coming in? Cause it was a very, how long is it going to take before they go bad? Yeah. Good guys. Absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. Right. Once that bad guy's gone, now who are the good guys are coming in? Because it was a very-

And how long is it going to take before they go bad? Yeah. The good guys. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? I mean, that's the- Yeah. So trying to still figure out and to not be this sort of patriarchal and like, we're going to tell you how to run your country and we have the best ideas for what to do. We went around. I was George Clooney and myself, a long-distance runner named Tegla LaRouche, Olympic runner, and Joey Cheeks, who was a speed skater,

went around during the height of this. We went to China. We went to Egypt, talked to Prince Mubarak, to try and say, you have influence in this region. The Chinese had influence because they have deals with the Sudanese people, militaristic deal with weapons and things like that and oil. Yeah. And we thought the Arab nations would be able to put some pressure.

Yeah. But when we went, first of all, we were the highest level delegation that had ever gone to those areas about it, which is ridiculous. Two actors? Two actors and two athletes were like the highest level delegation that had ever gone to try to get any movement on it. And both of the countries, both of their leadership said to us, who are you to come in here and try to tell us anything America about what to do. You guys think that you have the best track record on this to preach from your podium about what we should be doing to curb violence?

Are you crazy? Did you even see that coming, though? Did that put you in a position of sort of like, what do I really know? Well, we're not pushing back on that yeah we're just saying that this is actually really happening yeah you know and we're not here to to represent or defend things that are happening with american interests we're trying to talk about the people right that are here and can you help the people right and they're like yeah get the fuck out of here basically kick rocks yeah you know yeah go tell Go tell your leadership to do something.

And during the height of this as well, I was asked to testify for the Senate with John Prendergast and General Dallaire, who was in Rwanda at the time. And he was the last UN general who stayed behind when everyone else fled and he wouldn't leave. To just talk about our experience in the area and what had happened and what we thought America, quote unquote, should do or what our government should do. Right. And I was called in to meet with Condoleezza Rice because she heard I was coming. So the State Department's like, oh, Condoleezza Rice wants to talk to you. I was like, wow, that's pretty heavy.

Yeah. I felt like what it felt. I didn't, I wasn't cool with it. Right. I was like, what am I supposed to do? So I go sit outside her office and it's like being called to the principal's office. You know, I'm out there. I have to cool with it. Right. I was like, what am I supposed to do? So I go sit outside her office, and it's like being called to the principal's office. I'm out there. I have to wait while she pulls me in.

So Jindai Frazier was her head of African Affairs, and like, tell Don what's happening in the region. So she said a bunch of gobbledygook I didn't really understand. I was like, okay. And then she left, and then she excused everybody, and it was just me and her and a photographer. Yeah. And she said, okay, well, let me explain something to you, Don. She said, what's happening there? You know, on the border, there was a, when the Israeli soldiers, there was a couple of

Israeli soldiers that were taken between the border of, between Lebanon. And do you remember when that happened? It was a big international, it was almost a huge international. We were like, we're going to go to war over this. A couple of Israeli soldiers were kidnapped. Yeah. And she said, we had to send, it's the UN, it was almost a huge international. We were like, we're going to go to war over this. A couple of Israeli soldiers were kidnapped. And she said, we had to send, it's the UN, it's not us. We're not the problem with the genocide. It's the UN.

And I was like, that's like saying, it's my right, it's not me. It's my right, it's my right arm. She said, but they're the problems. Like, so when this incident, this international incident went down, we had to send special, we had to send a couple of special envoys down there to push through all the red tape and all the bureaucracy. I was like, so you just said you couldn't do anything. And now you just told me that you, I'm not saying this, I'm just listening because I don't want to leave. Right.

You know? Yeah. And then she said, and all you activists out there, all you guys out there talking about George Bush needs to do more to stop the genocide in Darfur. George Bush can't do anything about that. You guys need to shut up. Wow said it like that kind of oh man basically knock it off did you feel like that was she scary or just were you like sort of like or was she just felt like i mean she didn't say let's meet at a cafe it wasn't like right let me call and tell you that.

I was literally sitting in the State Department, and she was working in her official capacity. Yeah, to tell you to shut up. Wow. Which I didn't. Of course. I went out and told that story at every book drive. I was like, if something happens to me, check Condi.

I am not suicidal. I didn't get despondent and shoot myself in the back of the head in my driveway yeah well it seems like all of the that that stuff really it has to do with you know people like you or people who are focused on the the the issue to to go out and get shit done i mean i was talking to Tandy about working with events with the women in the Congo. I mean, it's heavy shit. But they go down there and they create a system of support

of ways that the community can start to rebuild themselves. Yeah, and that's the best thing that we can do, I think, from our positions is really shine the light on and support people who have been doing the work for a long time and attempt to, as best we can with this platform, lend support to the communities that are dealing with it. And bring attention to it.

That's it. That's what we can do. We're not the experts. Of course. We're just saying these are the experts. Right. These are the people who had intimately impacts and effects and they are down there doing the experts. Of course. We're just saying these are the experts, though. These are the people who it intimately impacts and affects, and they are down there doing the work. I'm glad you put a mic in front of me and put a camera in front of me.

Let's turn it to them. Yeah. You know, like Brad. And get them what they need. That's it. Yeah. I can't stand when people condescend, you know, Hollywood people or celebrities or the acting community for making political statements. It's like we're not assuming anything other than the fact that we can say something and be heard and draw attention to something that requires attention.

That's it. We're not saying we're geniuses. No. We're not saying we're fucking, you know, experts. No, we're saying here's a problem. Yeah. It's a real problem. And yeah, help out.

And please look over there and you guys do something yeah yeah fuck man and you know it's only getting harder and weirder and scarier no diggity so these last two big cable shows that you're doing like i watched a a few a bit of the the black monday it's pretty it's it's pretty broad, funny shit. Yeah. You know, like you're working with Goldberg and Seth Rogen on that. Yeah. And like, where'd that idea come from? Those guys?

No, it came from the writers, David Kasp and Jordan Kahan, who created the pilot. And they had pitched it early to Showtime and then Billions came out and they were like, well, our show's not gonna happen.

But Seth and Evan had a deal there. And David Nevins had a show time at the time, was asking, what do you guys want to do? And there was a bunch of projects. They said, we want to do this one. Yeah. And so they got together and David called me and he said, there's this project that I'm, I don't know if it's you. Actually, I don't think it's you. Nevin?

As I'm saying out loud. Yeah. As I'm saying it out loud, I don't think you're the right person. So anyway, good talking to you. He's good, and he hangs up. I was like, great talking to you, David. And then he called me a little later and goes, you know what? Actually, the more I think about it, I think this actually might be good for you.

Yeah, yeah. So and he said, and I talked to Seth and Evan, and they're way into it, and David and Jordan are way into it. So let's all get together and meet and see if there's something that can work out. And is it similar to the guy from House of Lies? I think people think he's, some people have thought that. I'm playing it, so I don't feel like he's got the same vibe as Marty as all. I think that they're different.

You know, Marty at least held certain things. He had some moral compass and he had a family and he had, you know, a grounding mechanism that was his dad and his son. And it wasn't as broad a comedy, though. And it wasn't straight up broad nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This one is. And I think that's why David was really David Nevins really sparked to it because he goes, this is like a straight comedy. Right. You know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't need a moral compass. No. These guys are bananas. Right. Let's go. More coke. More insanity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't need a moral compass. No. These guys are bananas. Right, yeah, right. Let's go. More coke, more insanity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so this is the second season's going up now? Mm-hmm. Well, I hope it keeps going. Me too. And, you know, you're constantly working, and obviously we could keep going through a bunch of stuff,

but it was great talking to you, man. It was great talking to you too. Thanks for doing it. Thank you for de-catting your studio for me. You got it, man. Now I got to go listen to some Miles. Thanks for doing it. Thank you for decatting your studio for me. You got it, man. Now I got to go listen to some Miles. Yo, no doubt.

That was Don Cheadle. That was, I really enjoyed talking to that guy. And again, his show, the show he's on now, Showtime's Black Monday,

season two premieres on Sunday, March 15th at 10 p.m my special end times fun premieres tomorrow on netflix uh hey google who is mark maron according to wikipedia mark david maron is an american stand-up comedian podcaster writer and actor hey google what has mark maron done according to wikipedia from 2013 to 2016 he starred in his own ifc television comedy series maron for which he also served as executive producer and occasional writer wow that's impressive hey google is mark maron a good stand-up comedian sorry i don't have any information about that. Come on, you can't just say yes.

I gotta play my Les Paul Jr. just to erase that. Let's cleanse the palate with some greasy fucking tone. guitar solo Thank you. boomer there Boomer lives. Boomer lives. We'll see you next time. details. Discover the timeless elegance of Cozy, where furniture meets innovation. Designed in Canada, the sofa collections are not just elegant, they're modular, designed to adapt and evolve with your life. Reconfigure them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the Cozy difference with furniture that grows with you, delivered to your door quickly and for free. Assembly is a

breeze, setting you up for years of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture.