WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1106 - Thandie Newton

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

When Thandie Newton took the part of Maeve on Westworld, she had no idea the character would wind up being a perfect metaphor for her life. As Thandie tells Marc, she didn’t really understand her outsider status as a mixed-race young person in England until much later in life. That confusion created an identity issue where she spent many years without knowing who she really was. Thandie talks about how she turned that corner, how her friendship with Eve Ensler changed her life, and how speaking out about sexual abuse in Hollywood damaged her career before there was widespread awareness about the need for change. This episode is sponsored by Stitcher Premium, The Climb from Sony Pictures Classics, and Capterra. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucknicks, what the fuckadelics, what

the fuckettes, how's it going? Are you alright? How's it being bunkered, self-isolated, sequestered by self, quarantined, nothing to do, locked down? How's it going? Are you alright? I just, i man i don't know it it got pretty scary pretty quick out here in california i don't know where you are of course we're a little late to the game in this country but you know leave it to americans it takes a while for them to

kind of negotiate the negotiation between lizard brain brain and the ego can be kind of rough going. You know, you get the information and lizard brain wants to react properly and take the constructive measures to protect oneself. But then depending where your ego lies, maybe you still want to go to that concert or you still want to go to that restaurant, you still want to go to that bar or you still want to believe that it's not real or that it couldn't happen to you. Ego, that, I'll tell you, man, that conflict between ego and lizard brain

is going to be the end of us. And I'm being fairly diplomatic about it. I mean, I'm the same way. I'm the same way. I mean, come on. Our guest today is Tandy Newton from Westworld. And she was in the movie Crash. She's a very lovely person. The new season of Westworld is on HBO Sunday nights and on HBO streaming platforms, but a lovely person. And I was thrilled to talk to her, but I do want to let you guys know, we did the interview shortly before the, it was sort of at the beginning of it,

of the lockdown out here. I do want to tell you, as always, despite whatever we go through, given this is one of the few places where people can still connect and listen and take their minds off it or at least listen to other human beings being human. We're going to keep at it. We're not going to let you down. We will be here for you, going through it with you as this unfolds. for you, going through it with you as this unfolds. But we're going to be here the same as always, twice a week to give you what you need. It's definitely scary. And I think it's weird for me because I'm an anxious person that's full of dread anyways. But generally, my dread is not the world's going to end dread or that I'm going to get sick dread. Really, it's really day to day dread.

But I've run the gamut of complete existential paralysis and anxiety. I used to be just paralyzed by hypochondria. I used to be completely immersed in the type of dread of, I was going to die, we were all going to die, but that's lessened, but my grooves are grooved. My neuro channels, my neural canals, my neural pathways are cut with the sharp edge of anxiety all the way back from my front lobes to the back, all the way back, all the way from the ego to the lizard brain. I've got well articulated neural pathways that I can climb into anytime I want. Well traveled. So with all this going down, there's something about the chaos and the panic

and the impending doom of it all that is sort of, I feel okay. I feel like, all right, so now we all kind of understand what carved me out of the fucking clay to be who I am, and then we're all on the same page. Obviously, that's not true. Some people are worse off, but in terms of panic, there's something about things being a little chaotic and out of control and scary is when i get calm and i get clarity and i get relaxed and i get grounded the belligerence of the people that insist on living their lives is uh inability to think altruistically it's a fairly selfish childish mode of thinking that the right engages in most of the time but some of us are guilty of it as well the sort of like yeah it's not that bad i bet you know you don't die but old people die i'm not

gonna get no it it's the spread man it's the spread and you know quite honestly they don't know they don't know how it's gonna affect people they don't know how it's gonna mutate it's killing some younger folks in some places i don't know what's's going to happen. You know, the hope, the hope is, right, the hope is that it don't get that bad and that somehow the precautions we're taking on a state-by-state level by responsible state representatives as opposed to leadership at the top, as opposed to leadership at the top, it may work. It may hold it back. And if it does, then the belligerent will cry foul and say,

I told you and you guys overreacted. It was all an assault on our freedom. So that's in the best case scenario. If thousands and thousands and thousands don't get sick and thousands and thousands and thousands and don't don't die those of us who are careful and reacted properly uh will be called the enemy for overreacting but i guess that's a small price to pay if our fucking economic system and medical system and community systems hold up. Right? Right.

What a time to be alive. You know, I was too slow on the toilet paper, but thankfully I had a dozen or so rolls. And it's only me. And now, you know, Lynn's here too, because her production got shut down in Boston. So she flew back. Glow is put on hold.

Everything's on hold. The comedy store is closed. This is where we're at. We don't know how long it Glow is put on hold. Everything's on hold. The comedy store is closed. This is where we're at. We don't know how long it's going to go on for. I don't know, man. I don't know. And you know, if you're a compulsive eater, the risk is you're going to go through your two weeks of food in a couple of days. We'll see what happens this week. You know, I'll check in with the groceries. That's a weird thing. I compulsively go to grocery stores for one or two things when I need them because they're close. Not anymore. Not only, even if they're little, like I need some dry mustard and some peppercorns to pickle some beets. But I don't know what it's going to, I don't know what's going to happen this week.

I don't know what's going to happen. I just hope people are doing these sort of distancing trip trip just for everybody's sake we don't know what's going to happen might as well take the precautions that are recommended by the people that know as opposed to calling them uh hacks or frauds or cucks let's listen to the scientists on this one we've never been through a pandemic. Why not take the information from the people that understand this stuff because they studied it their whole fucking life as opposed to you

probably not listening to this show who thinks they know everything just because. Because they don't want to change. They don't want to listen. They don't want to listen. They don't want to be inconvenienced. I fucking do what I want. I'm a child.

So a lot of nice responses to the special. And I appreciate it. A lot of people on Twitter, a lot of emails coming in And I appreciate it. A lot of people on Twitter, a lot of emails coming in. I appreciate it. I couldn't have timed it better. I didn't time it like this. I had nothing to do with it. Tragic serendipity brought my special end times fun to the public on the weekend.

That seems like the end is upon us. And I'm glad it's providing some relief but i had nothing there was no way i could calculate that and i did i had nothing to do with the creation of the coronavirus yeah the entire global tragedy was not some sort of you know false flag for me to promote my special. Sorry, I wish it was. I wish it wasn't real, but it is real. It is real. So let's read an email. You got me fired and it changed my life. This is something I could not have anticipated. Usually I get the life-changing emails because of the podcast. Hey, Mark, just wanted to share a quick story.

It was maybe 1995. I'd finished college in Indiana with no future, moved to Albuquerque on a whim, and got a job at Mailbox, et cetera, by the university. You came in one morning to send some package. I recognized you from Comedy Channel, and to my everlasting embarrassment, was a bit starstruck. Evidently, I undercharged you or overcharged you. Regardless, it got back to the boss and she fired me. Having nothing else to do then, I answered an ad in the back of a magazine and wound up teaching English in Korea

for the next two years, came back to the States, enlisted in the army for four years, and now I'm a public librarian in Wisconsin. Just wanted to say thanks for getting me fired. It changed my life. Anyway, appreciate what you do and wanted you to know that your honesty about addiction and related troubles, though masked in comedy, makes a sincere difference in a whole lot of lives, mine included. Stay strong and hoo-ha,ris thanks buddy uh glad to help out glad to have gotten you fired glad to help help out yeah okay what else we got

ireland hello mark just listened to your interview with don gavin in which the irishman needed your convincing to visit Ireland. I love that the country left such a large impression on you. Who doesn't love soft rain? I'm of Irish heritage, originally from North Jersey slash New York. Over the years, I connected deeply with many a Russian Jew or Eastern European cohort because of how we overlapped in humor and casual despair. Joyce and Tolstoy were doing their thing pretty much at the same time. And a quick word about Boston, a.k.a. the last bastion of old school American masculinity. There exists a double helix of fighty toughness and epigenetic pain, which forms pure cinematic

poetry. Manchester by the Sea is the most recent example. I agree with your observation about Irish men being so much sweeter than Irish American men. My theory, Irish American men have had their Donegal beaten out of them, emasculated, particularly in Boston, by the gentry who oppressed them for 800 years back in the motherland. I can't imagine it was easy for you either, making the rounds in New England as a young comic. My parents are slowly dying on Cape Cod and every time I visit, I'm struck by the deep suspicion New Englanders have of anyone who doesn't subscribe to that cloistered Catholic pathos. Best, Barbara.

And you, Barbara, are a poet. Thank you for that, Barbara. I appreciate that this one is um oh boy all right honeymoon pandemic dig it already i'm in i like the title should be a movie hi mark i hope this email finds you well. My wife and I, both Americans, were slash are honeymooning in Spain this past week, if you want to call it that. Mostly, we were just walking around increasingly deserted streets in ancient and beautiful locales, looking for restaurants that might welcome us, and clandestinely

applying Purell after repeated hand washings. What I will say is that we argued a lot and being the more well-traveled in our team, I tried to assure my beloved in chronological order that one, the trip was a good idea. Two, we weren't going to have to change it while we were here. Three, we can just cut the trip short a bit. Four, they're going to let us back in the country. Five, home quarantine might be creatively productive for us. Huh. It was a crash course in marriage 101.

In a possible crisis situation, a woman's intuition should not be diminished or ignored. Once I admitted my shortcomings, the tension eased, and we hunkered down last night, where we were the only guests to watch End Times Fun. And I will say, we laughed our asses off. The special was everything we love about you, and it truly helped ease tension we have

over our current travel situation and the symbolism of our trip, which we have dubbed Honey Pandemic. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for bringing us together and providing some much-needed perspective and levity in a strange time. Much love, Keith and Lauren.

Now, this came in on, I guess, Saturday night. I bet you they're stuck there. This is going to be a real test. Keith, Lauren, I hope your marriage survives your honeymoon. You know? Oh, man. So, Tandy Newton is a real fan of this show. And it was, I didn't know that thoroughly until she came.

And we had a lovely conversation. And she was great. I felt like we could have talked for a long time. Was great. I felt like we could have talked for a long time. And she, Tandy Newton, sent me flowers a couple of days after we had the talk to say what a nice time she had. And that it was a great experience for her. Sent me flowers.

She sent me a beautiful bouquet of flowers. Lovely. And this is me talking to Tandy Newton about a lot of stuff. She is in the new season of Westworld. She's been in there since the beginning. And the new season is on HBO Sunday nights and on HBO streaming platforms. And we talked about a lot of stuff. This is me and Tandy Newton. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization,

it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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Zensurance. Mind your business. There are shows where people sort of sit down with showrunners and they get like a seasonal arc. Like, what am I doing? Where am I going to be? What's happening? Not your experience. They like to keep things from us. Why?

Because... You agree with that logic? I trust them. I trust them. Yeah. Because I like them as people. Yeah. I don't trust anybody else.

You trust the Westworld people. I trust those two people. Yeah. I'll show you on this. Do you want to work hands on your head? Do people like to? You're doing it, so I'm going to do it. I do it because I can hear myself. Do you want to work hands on your head? Do people like to? You're doing it, so I'm going to do it. I do it because I can hear myself, and you can hear yourself.

I can hear myself slurp. Oh, nice. That is going to drive some people crazy. There are certain people in the world that cannot take that. Can't take it. I like it, though. Yeah. All right, so, but that script, that week-to-week thing,

so you get the script for Westworld like a week before? Oh, yeah. That's it? That's it. That's it. See, I think that's why I find it or I have found it unsatisfying to act on television because that means like even if you have just a few scenes, you've got a week to kind of

put those scenes together, only focus on those those scenes kind of lock into your trip but it's not it's not enough to live in it you know what i mean you're like visiting it yeah except you don't know in life what you're going to be doing from one week to the next so i don't know what's going to happen in five minutes exactly after i've drunk this coffee i know you really don't know i have no idea where this is gonna go i don't mind yeah i'm i'm trying to think of why they keep things from us sometimes um i think they don't want us to share information with each other whether they don't maybe they don't want to have to be tied to something i think that might be a thing like you don't want an actor being disappointed with what's coming up because they're not it's not fully done yet or they still got other revisions and shit i think it's mostly

because they don't trust anybody not to dump the story out into the world maybe that's right i don't really know and it's it's just not that important to me to to find out like if if we were in a pattern where yeah you know i found out i was gonna you know kill a child and you know maim an old lady it's like you know what i just i i don't want it doesn't give you time to say no to say no oh i don't want to do that right okay well there's right you would think they would ask you but you know but actually it's only in westworld that might those two things could possibly no no no that well for me as long as they're robots it doesn't matter oh god when i find out new stuff it's always great and i'm yeah i like it i didn't know that my like that i almost

tried to have sex with my daughter until the week before what that last uh the last scene of the second season i think of glow where where um justine reveals that she's my daughter that i didn't know i had like and she was pretty fucked up it was pretty intense wow um but i mean didn't go that far no but it was kind of jarring but i didn't know that was gonna happen to like the week before so and you as a character didn't know either so exactly that's i guess that's good i understand that but maybe maybe we're coming around to it maybe right now i guess but i guess as an actor who's trying to learn how to act who doesn't consider himself to be you know that great

at it yet you're very good at it well thank you man but to put more work into getting to to sort of really feel like i think like if they told me what's going to happen this whole season that to know where I'm going to go it would kind of give me some sort of broader perspective. I do know what you mean. I do know what you mean. Like for example, Ken Loach,

great director Ken Loach, he often doesn't tell the actors what's coming up next. The British guy? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And very often they're non-actors. Right.

So they respond as you would completely. I don't know how I feel about it. I think Ken Loach is a genius. His films are amazing. But if you're an actor doing it for a living, you don't want that. Because you want to prepare. I guess for me, because I've spent so much of my life not preparing and winging it,

like most of what I do, stand- up and stuff, all starts that way. And this, what we're doing right now. Yeah. That, you know, the idea that like, I'd like to try to make some real choices, man. Yeah. Yeah. Give me some, like, I want to spend some time with the choices. Mind you, you do have a week.

And I bet what you do in a week is pretty good. But then I talk to people like Sam Rockwell. I talk to Rockwell and he's like, you know, when I'm going to do a movie, I read the script, the whole script a hundred times. I'm like, holy shit. That's fucking crazy. That's excessive. I guess so. That's what he needs to do.

And he's good. He's really good. And I don't know what I need to do. No. What do you need to do? You have to figure it out. I'm trying to. I think you're doing quite a good job. Well, thank you. I mean, it depends. After GLOW, do you need to do? You have to figure it out. I'm trying to. I think you're doing quite a good job.

Well, thank you. I mean, it depends. After Glow, do you want to go and do other stuff? Well, I've been doing some movies here and there. I played Jerry Wexler in the Aretha Franklin movie. You did? With Jennifer Hudson. I hear I did good. I never think I did good. But you did that beautiful thing when you did

with the Modern Love. With Melanie Linsky. Oh,insky oh shit great that was heavy i get choked up when you bring it up oh that was she's amazing she's great we had her for one day man so that cafe scene oh that had a fucking go man yeah and it did yeah and you did great we were in it wide open yes sir you live here no i live in lond wide open. Yes, sir. Oof. You live here? No, I live in London. So what, oh, you're just here doing press? Yeah, but I'm in the middle of shooting a movie in Montana right now.

Montana's pretty. Are you enjoying it out there? Yeah. What kind of movie are you shooting in Montana? Oh, God, it's so fucking good. Yeah? Who's directing that? It's his first feature.

He's award-winning short movies, a real student of cinema. Oh, yeah has done it small movie yeah small movie very small yeah um and it was a i just finished westworld and another movie back to back and i really needed to go home and just just do nothing and i read the script and talked to him and But I said no because I just thought this is so good. No, Richie, I thought this is so good that someone else is going to, it's still going to be great because the material is so good. And so I didn't feel like, oh, they need me. Oh, right, right. And then I couldn't stop thinking about it for two weeks.

I haven't had that experience for years. How does Montana factor into it? It's set in Montana. She's a black woman in the snow with a dog and a gun. Really? They call it a neo-Western. How is Montana? I hate the snow.

I mean, I really do. You find no beauty in it. It looks beautiful, but, you know, underneath there's poo. There's, there's, I just see what's, I know what's under there. What's frozen under there? Well, not even frozen necessarily. Just sitting there? Just there, right?

Oh, sure. All kinds of filth. Filth. And it's fucking freezing. Yeah. And I don't like being cold. Uh-huh. I mean, there is so much going against

this thing um but is it sounds like one of those kind of like you know it's a character study you're the movie correct yes right and it's dealing with issues around just judging people at face value hate crimes racism subtle subtle themes which are so present in our culture right now you know what are we gonna do and well i'm this is this is why i need to do this yeah right you know because i just feel like it really really really it articulates the dilemma really well yeah and helps you to see just the just the suicidal tendencies of humanity and how we're not willing to experience each other and and face up to ourselves and and just fear of the other and sure but also like that like you know i start to realize recently that there's this weird cocoon of entitlement and and and constantly, which is fear of entitlement, but also this idea that, you know, that your perception or what you think somebody is, is what they are.

And it's and it happens almost instantly. Yeah. And I think we all do it to a degree. You know, like I'm not talking about race, but just with anybody. I wrote this line. I said, most of who other people are is something we make up. Oh, yeah, what we project. Right.

Of course it is. And it's very useful. If you think of yourself in a little tribe and having to fend for everything, all your resources, protection, everything. And you need to be able to judge at face value. You need to make quick decisions. Are you talking about, are we dealing with wild animals? Yeah, wild animals. But people are so much more complex.

Yes, but we've still got these lizard brains. Oh, yeah. And I don't think that we truly understand, you know, our kind of archaic impulses. Right. And they are archaic. Sometimes I don't feel like I know anybody. Even people that I think I know. Even people I should know.

Isn't that great, though? It is great. But it means you have to keep exploring. You can never assume. Right. But you're probably going to find something in there that's disappointing and aggravating yes well yeah that moment where you're like oh you're one of those people yeah damn it well that's my theory about falling in love oh which is you know that love at first sight thing is that you project like obviously it's got to be a physical you know that

person there's a chemistry that goes on and then you project everything that you hope that person couldn't everything that didn't come together for you as a child everything's there needs to there everything's got to resolve they've got the whole picture that first few moments is wicked and then as time goes on you're going through the checklist and either it matches up to what you hoped or maybe like 50 50 is50 is pretty cool. I guess so. I guess I hear you have to compromise. Yes. That's my understanding.

Darling, you have to grow. I guess what I hear. You have to grow. You have to take the hit. You do. That's right. So much learning. So much learning.

But I mean, how many times have you had that experience? You've been married a while, right? 21 years. That's a long time. Yeah, it happened once in the box. He just ticks them all. Wow. 21 years of ticking boxes okay he even ticks the okay in retrospect even the boxes that i fucking would have kicked him out i realized were the most important boxes of all oh that you dealt with that yeah the most important boxes of all. Oh, that you dealt with that? Yeah, the most important boxes of all.

The things that I feared most, the things that I desperately didn't want. And through no fault of his own necessarily, but in growing past those things. So you're able, they presented themselves and you were able to work through them together. Yeah, not resist. Huh. Not resist. Yeah. Because. Yeah, not resist. Huh.

Not resist. Yeah. Because he's a really, really good person. That's good. Are you? I think I am. Good. I think so.

I love a lot. Good. I do. I know I'm kind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I know I'm kind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I know I'm difficult.

But it's, but you do. And I, and I, but I, I mean. Self-awareness is so important, isn't it? Yeah, but I do, I try to do the right thing. You know, I'm cranky about doing the right thing, but I do it. Oh, really? No, I mean, like a lot of times I don't. You're honest.

Yeah. I don't think that emotionally I'm as open or as unafraid as I should be in a personal relationship. But I try to compensate by, you know, knowing I need to do good things. Right. Yes. Okay. Yeah, that's all. And then when it happens, when I'm open and stuff, it's like, it's happening. Let's enjoy it while it's happening.

Now it's going away. But trust is hard, isn't it? It's really, really hard. I think I don't even think about it anymore as much as I just go like, is it even necessary? I guess it is. To trust. I don't always know what I want out of a thing

yeah trust is important it you can't know you can't you just gotta rely on like you you're in a relationship

and something happened a spark yeah and then you just go you go and you go along and

I had no choice you had no choice oh really it was one of those like I was like if I don't do this I I'm going to be mad. Oh, really? I'm going to regret it.

Oh, my God. I was with somebody else. Okay. And it was sort of like, I got it. I mean, at least the decision was kind of made for you. It's heavy. In some ways, you know? Well, you know, also like I'm a child, you know, like I have no children.

And there's no reason for me to be in anything I'm not comfortable in. And life is, this is it. It is it. What, you're going to stay in a situation unnecessarily that is ultimately lying to the other person? Yeah, I don't owe anyone my life. I think that's, I mean, yeah, of course it's hard, but it's the right thing to do. Did your parents, are they married? Yes.

Are they alive? They're alive and married. So they stuck in it. What? Yeah. You got good modeling on that? Yeah. They're so sweet, man. It's like they've, it gets to

a point, and I feel somewhat, I can see it around the corner, where you just accept shit, man. You have to, man. You get too old. You've got to put the shield down. You've got to put the sword down on some level. You've got to.

And just accept that it's just not the way you thought it might be. And also it's okay. Or hoped it would be. It is okay. And a lot of the shit we were all worked up about doesn't fucking matter anymore. It doesn't matter, babe. Isn't that great? In the big picture, it doesn't worked up about doesn't fucking matter anymore. It doesn't matter, babe. Isn't that great? In the big picture, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't fucking matter. Yeah. I would just like to live my life without being put in a camp of some kind, if that's possible. Sorry. Did I buzzkill? No, no, no, no. I was just immediately thinking, what would we do? What would we do?

What would we do? We'd be like, well, so who's got some good camp jokes? Where were you born? I was born in London. On a very brief trip back to London, we were living in Zambia. My family. So explain. See, now, I don't know that I've ever met.

Oh, you know, I may have talked to one other person. From Zambia? Not from Zambia, but has roots in. Yolo. How do you say his name? Yolo. David Oyelowo. Ah. Oh, name? Yolo. David Oyelowo. Ah.

Oh, thank Christ. Yes. David Oyelowo. Yes. Now, we made a movie together. He's lovely. But where is, I can't remember. We've talked about it.

Where are his roots? Doesn't he come from? Nigeria. So he's Nigerian. But he comes from royalty too. Does he? I think he does. Don't you?

I do. I do. My mom was a princess. She is a princess. Still a princess. She is a princess. Still a princess. She is, yeah, according to Zimbabwean African lineages. Now, how did your family get here? So my mom is from Zimbabwe.

Yeah. And she came, she went to London. Oh, man, sweet mama. Her whole family, her whole town saved up because she was the youngest of like eight children but was a real little firecracker. And everyone pitched in for a one-way ticket to England when she was in her 20s. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

There wasn't a lot. And the king let her go? Her dad was no longer alive. But let me explain about the royal lineages there. Because it's not like one king for the whole of Zimbabwe. Because, you know, back in the day, there were, you know, small villages. And each village, each town had a royal family. Like a clan situation?

Yeah. So it's like, in a way, it's now like the mayor. Got it. They would call them kings and queens, but it's like in a way it's it's now like the mayor got it they would call them kings and queens but it was like the mayor so she came she came to england to train to be a nurse she got her qualifications went straight back because that's the point that is no bullshit man oh god and uh the experience she had in england was was interesting as you can imagine. Just a lot of racism. But then went back to Zambia where she had a job in the hospital and my dad was there. He was training in the laboratory. He was interested in music back in England.

He's from a tiny town on the coast of England. He'd never traveled anywhere further than London and back in those days Africa was encouraging people from England America to come and bring their skills so there was no like red tape anywhere immigration that kind of stuff he was there and he the reason he went to Africa is because he wanted to go to where the roots of the blues came from because he loved blues. And he knew it wasn't America. He knew those syncopated beats were Africa. But were they from that part of Africa?

I think it was probably. Senegal, maybe? I think, yeah, it was probably more west. But he wanted to go to Africa because he wanted to go to the roots of blues. That's so wild. So he just got the map, closed his eyes, put his finger. It was Zambia, and there he was. So I am a fluke, man.

That's great. Big old fluke. Did he find the roots of the blues, your old man? Yeah. My mom, she had a black eye. We fell in love with her at the party where she had this big afro and one dodgy eye. And that was the end of it. Oh, that's a sweet story.

And then they both go back to England? Yeah. Huh. They were only supposed to go back for a short while. But his dad was unwell, so they ended up sticking around. So he comes from there. Where did he come from? Cornwall. Okay, so he grew up there.

And, you know, they came from completely different worlds, cultures, environments. So no wonder it's tricky. Of course. To be the child of these two right people there is no place tricky for them culturally for me right but not with them no not with them it makes perfect sense with them no but i mean you're okay with them oh my god yeah i'm yeah i'm really good with them right but the judgment that comes down it was hard i can't imagine it was so fucking hard my mom struggled hard to keep my brother and i protected from just the ignorance and cynicism of people did you feel it when you were younger

um i in retrospect yeah but i didn't have an explanation for why people didn't want to be my friend i didn't have an explanation for why. Because you're a kid. Well, I mean, I guess mom could have explained it, but that's not what you did in those days. So you mean you always just felt, as you got older, that you just felt weird? I was just not attractive. I was even, no matter how hard I tried, I wasn't a favorite ever.

I was always passed over. You mean in school? In school, always in trouble. Oh, my God. For doing fuck all. It was like, well, it was a Catholic nuns. You went to a Catholic school? Nun.

It was the best school in the town. Whose idea was that? Well, it was the best school, the best education. And I remember, I don't remember this actually, but I feel like I do. You've been told. I was five years old and mum took me to the, to the gates where miss Wilmington, who wasn't a nun, the only nun, the only one who wasn't a nun met us at the, at the gate.

And, um, she said to my mom, we're all very excited because we've never had one before. Oh, wow. So mom had to put my, my hand in her hand and walk away. And that you were the one, that's the price she had to pay for my education. But for mom, my mom had to leave home at five years old to go and get an education. She had your interest at heart. Oh, without a doubt. But did not quite fathom the hardships you might have encountered.

Yeah, but she had managed so i guess but like that's every day you know wearing a uniform and being the only black kid in the whole school babe she she braided my hair in this pretty style for the school photo and i was sent home what you know because it was to ghetto like it was inappropriate i felt so ashamed and i but also the added the added thing is is that i felt so embarrassed for her and i almost didn't want to be the thing that goes home and goes you did wrong mom you know what i mean it's like i felt right it's our fault i felt so awful. Like, it was just, it was that constantly. That's so complicated because, like, no matter, so your mom wasn't really explaining things to you.

No, no, because she didn't take the high ground. Because we were the imposters in a way. She felt that way too. I can't say that. I mean, I can't speak for her but in at that time because there were so few people of color she couldn't stand up and go hey all of you you've all got it wrong we deserve to be here like it was still like we had to prove ourselves worthy of being there in a way right you know so i was a good girl but i couldn't help

myself i was also very naughty you know i just was spir good girl but i couldn't help myself i was also very naughty you know i just was spirited and just used to like making people laugh non-stop i see it in my kids and it is glorious but with me it was like the worst thing ever so on top of being the other and the only one you're you're causing shit causing shit just you know just funny and and bright did people like you i think the ones that did were the rebels the ones who didn't mind other people going you're friends with her you know yeah um yeah there were so many fucked up things but my god i feel like i've been kind of you know the blacksmith really worked on my on on my soul you know yeah bashed it bashed it put

it in the flames bashed it again and i am sharp now right i am fucking what was what came at you at that point i mean like you know was it was it violent was it hostile i mean like or was it just sort of kid shit um kid shit i guess the most significant one i was 12 13 and i'd be i'd become friends with this with a girl who was the most popular girl in the school by this point by the way i've gone to a boarding school because i was i was really good political move good instinctual yeah you know yeah um the most popular girl in the school but i'll tell you why because um so i was really talented started dancing which was great because i could tell you why because um so i was really talented started dancing which was great because i could really let rip then and no one was going to tell

me off so i went to this dance school from the age of like three years old and i just kept i was doing really good and almost to sort of get rid of me she's like i think that she should she should she should audition for for a proper dancing school oh wow so that was up up in london which was hours away from where we were. And I got two scholarships to go. My parents didn't have any dosh, but there I was. Going to the big city.

Going to the big city. So I got there and of course, no friends, only black kid. But I was used to that. The only black kid again? Yeah. What year was this? This is, oh, frick.

Well, you don't have to, if you don't want to. I mean, 80s, early 80s. How is that possible? 82, 83, because you had to have to if you don't want to. I mean, 80s, early 80s. How is that possible? 82, 83. Because you had to have money, man, to go to this school. But I had two scholarships. I had two grants to go.

Anyway, and there was a girl who was the most popular girl in the school. This is the first time that I was there. Her dad was Roger Whittaker. Do you remember Roger Whittaker? I'd like to. The whistling guy. Oh. Speed bonnie bow like a bird on the wing.

No, anyway. He was big. A pop star? He was Kenyan, white Kenyan. Oh. Huge in the 70s and 80s. Okay, okay. Huge in Canada and Germany.

Okay. Okay. But Jessica had it all. Yeah. The mansion in the countryside, everything. It's pretty there. And, yeah. And over one school holiday, all the girls in our year decided to send jessica to coventry

which is where you don't talk to her i mean girls are brutal man yeah okay yeah and because i wasn't part of the no one talked to me really you weren't the click no i was on the outside and i remember hearing about this that they were going to do this to her when she got back to school because she was coming back a couple of days late why were they on because she was too big for her boots because she was just too gorgeous too fabulous had everything right so collectively they decided to just bring her down yeah so she came back to the school i remember it she walked across the room and all the girls just turned away and she just sashayed out i swear to god she sashayed out and just said well i don't give a fuck anyway but i found her later crying

in the toilet of course in the right in the thing and she had never even looked at me seeing me didn't give just barely noticed me yeah and I just said to her look these people are crap don't worry about it yeah and so from being the one that she would never have spoken to she and I became the best friends and that sisters from then on oh she is my sister today yeah and I was the most unpopular. She was the most popular. And because we were both ostracized, we came together and it is alchemy, magic. That's so nice that it stayed. Yeah.

Because that could easily be one of those stories where once the other girls started liking her again, see, what's your name again? No, because she loved me and they were full of shit. And so her dad had this big party. This is back to the 13 year old thing. She has that had this big party. And Jessica was also very, very popular with the boys because she was gorgeous. She kind of looked older than she was and all that shit.

And so she, her dad was going to have this huge marquee party in the holidays. Hey, the whistling guy. Yeah. To mark 50 years of his life and 25 years in the business and i was gonna i got to go i was gonna go and there were gonna be like five boys and five girls that were allowed to go to this adult party yeah and so she hooked me up with her boyfriend's best mate in this other boarding school and we wrote to each other me and this boy for maybe a month or two and i was a good little writer because i was a smart girl and and i i i imagined how i could be confident but even though i wasn't right

so we turned up at this party we'd never met and he didn't talk to me and we had this wonderful exchange of letters it was on man he didn't talk to me and then that was during the day and then there were another couple of like little teas and and everyone going out to play tennis and he wouldn't look at me wouldn't talk to me and i just gave up and thought okay well he you know obviously doesn't like me although i will say that i got so fucking drunk i was so upset by the end of the night because all the girls had hooked up with all the boys including the one boy that hadn't hooked up hooked up with one of the girls who'd already hooked up with someone else rather than be with me so i was it was it was the worst time it was the worst thing that could ever happen and i thought

it was because i just was not attractive because i'd always been unattractive all through my life right also i thought so months later maybe years later because jessica was too ashamed to tell me yeah that she had found him at the party and said what are you doing yeah you and tandy and he said to her you didn't tell me she was black and what was great mark was as soon as she told me that i was like oh he's a dick. Oh, right. Yeah, as opposed to there's something wrong with me. Yeah. Right. Yeah, so that kind of, that, it's been an issue. It was an issue all through my childhood, just not knowing why and having to make, and the assumption was always, because racism wasn't, it wasn't clear to me. It hadn't been explained to me. That's odd.

Do you, did you did i didn't know what it was i honestly didn't know it wasn't until i get it but it is sort of like at the in the hands of your parents right on some level yes but maybe they thought it was obvious my mom's black i'm looking at her there she is but i just see she's my mom she's beautiful i don't look at her and think she's black i literally didn't she didn't look any different to anyone else to me. I guess maybe it's better to have figured it out retroactively. I think so. Yeah. As opposed to like because I've heard other black people I've talked to that sense of constant awareness of otherness because of that.

Oh, yeah. Was not the first place you went. It was just that I'm unlikable. Yes. But if you're I guess it's there's a part of me that never grew i think you know as a result of that that you right because you were sort of living in a lie to a degree i just i i never stunted i don't think I ever truly, I was never there. I was always, I didn't have a sense of myself at all.

It was just, can I, am I allowed to be in this room now? Or I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know who I was. I was just, it's like I was, I was nothing. Did it having a white father complicate things in the sense that like maybe you didn't

see yourself completely as a as in identity wise no he validated me as part of the community right

he's my dad okay so if people don't like me it's because I'm unlikable but it sounds like what you're saying is that your identity wasn't

tied into blackness no so but but outside of that who are you sure who you were well because i didn't have many friends yeah no i get it i didn't like so what changed uh god well i suppose what i was always doing was feeding my mind with literature. Yeah. You know, and you read a book and unless it's specifically spelt out like this person is black. Right. But so I was learning about the inner workings of all of us through novels. But I and then I then I became an actress and I was more comfortable in the roles I was playing.

I felt free. I felt relaxed. Which like when you're reading and stuff, which stuff really kind of like put things into perspective for perspective for you the most? Oh, the big sweeping dramas. Madame Bovary. Oh, yeah. Just, I guess, English literature. Yeah, sure.

Sweeping stories of romance. My favorite book was mill on the floss george elliott you know it's actually stories of of women who who aren't understood and who right and who just fight for a sense of value and worth in themselves i really uh i think i i really um felt a kinship with that stuff so when you went to the dance school how long did you stay there?

till I was 18 so you were there a couple years? no I was there from 12 to 18 so okay so that was that's a long time

yeah yeah when I got my education my full education then I went to university and read anthropology and that was the anthropology that's what turned things around

no kidding so but you chose you decided dance was not your future I had an injury and read anthropology and that was the, that's what, anthropology was the, that's what turned things around. No kidding. So, but you chose the, you decided dance was not your future. I had an injury and I couldn't do it anymore. Oh,

no shit. When I was 16 and I thought, fuck, what am I going to do? You know, I, dancing was everything.

Yeah. I also felt really good when I was doing it, you know, because everything, all the other shit disappeared and, and then this audition

for a movie came along because our school was well known. You could either like study drama. You could study music. You could study. And even though I wasn't a drama student, I was the only black girl in the school again. Yeah. So they were like, well, they want an African looking girl. So just go along for the day.

Yeah. It's your lucky day, black girl. Yeah. Lucky day. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. Today's your big day. Big day day go and pretend to be a drama student

and because i i guess i probably felt a bit like you do as an actor it's like am i really an actor oh yeah well yeah you just sort of you really had not prepared for it no no and i didn't care and i think it was that like because it didn't matter if i had if i got it or not the good thing had already happened which is i had i had a i got it or not the good thing had already happened which is i had i had a free trip to london that's great went to a fancy hotel to meet this this director okay and i took a little bit of direction and he said because i did it really badly because i didn't know what acting was i assumed you had to just it was for a movie yeah it's for a movie and i assumed you had to sort of speak like this and he was just flabbergasted by how shit it was.

And then he gave me a bit of direction, which was basically, you know, just convince me that everything you're saying is occurring to you just in this moment. And I said, oh, you want me to lie? And he went away for a few minutes, let me prepare, came back, and it was a whole new deal because, my God, I could lie well. Because I kind of had to. I'd had to for a long time. For why? When I was a

kid it's like are you feeling comfortable in this situation totally yes not at all oh right right you know right right um yeah also when you're a troublemaker you gotta lie at first a lot yeah i didn't do it so that was that that was that that's sort of what it is isn't it it's i've i said that once before where it's like if you've ever had to lie to save your ass and you pulled it off, you're probably an okay actor. I think, yeah. Definitely, in fact. Yeah. If you had to lie to get away with some shit.

But it's also, it's like you're winning the game. You know, if you can convince someone of something, it's fun. It's a game. It's just like being a kid. Well, I don't like it's like I understand some people get off on that. And there are people that do. I've always been impressed with people that do broader characters or really immerse themselves in characters to sort of fuck with people. I've never had the sort of heart for that.

I can't do that. I don't like doing that to people. No. Well, I guess you've come at it. You've only been acting, you a decade you know i really love that i love it i played condoleezza rice once i know i saw that in w yeah so did you get the part oh yes i did it was a movie called flirting it was in australia with i remember that movie that was a big movie nicole kidman yes that was like her big movie too when she was a kid well no nicole kidman was a big star already she was she well she was a big star in australia right and naomi watts but yeah it was

um big deal that's a big deal it was a big deal but it could have been just a an episode of a tv show i was thrilled to be there so excited um where does anthropology come in i went to cambridge to study anthropology after i finished that movie oh because i've got an african mother okay so she was so for her education is like education will save you from certain death right gotta go and so there i this film, which was a big sidestep from the dancing, which my parents had sacrificed for that.

But it's a celebrated movie, right? It was, it was good. It did good, but in the meantime, I still, I wasn't going to,

I wasn't going to, I wanted to be a dancer, that wasn't going to happen because of my injury. So I just, just while I was sort of trying to figure out what I was going to do next,

I went back to school, got my A levels, and then applied for Cambridge and I got in. It's a big deal, Cambridge. It it's a big it is a big deal and so it should be it's really really impressive and i got to study anthropology which i is oh for four years you did uh three and i still study it so why'd you choose that because i knew that i wanted to be an actor really that was the reason i knew no not not because of anthropology i knew i wanted to be i knew what i wanted to do so i wasn't studying something in order to be something like a doctor or a lawyer interested in so it's like

what can i do that's just gonna just gonna expand my mind um and it sounded really cool i also was aware that i was pretty disconnected from my african heritage and of course with anthropology africa is a huge part of what we study everything comes from there it does indeed mitochondrial eve yeah um and it just seemed like a really nice way to spend three years while i was figuring out while i was just getting old enough to to to be a person so you're like 18 19 i when i went to uni i was 18 yeah so so you had you you needed your mind to be blown it was blown okay so listen to this i go into for i go for my meeting for cambridge and i she asks me the question how do you determine race what would be the factor that you would this is

in the interview in my interview yeah and i thought for a second and i said skin color and she said hmm so that's by biology then uh yeah and she said well that's that's interesting because there is more biological difference between a black Kenyan and a black Ugandan than there is between a black Kenyan and a pale-skinned white Swiss person. Because people have been in Africa for so much longer, the gene pool has been changing for so long that there's actually more variation between people with dark skin than there is than there is between a dark skin person and a pale skin person. So in terms of biology, race is a complete made up illusion.

In terms of black, white being, you are less different from each other if you are white and black than if you're both black. Wow. So that's day one. That's the interview. That was the interview my mind was like yeah it was blown and because it was so blown and i'm sitting there and i'm a in quotes black person she's like you need to come here and you need to learn some stuff and

take it out into the world uh-huh and yeah it gave me an it gave me a sense of place, which is everywhere. Yeah. And an ease and a calm. I felt so... It's like it takes you from being on the ground, surrounded by the shit, to a bird's eye view where you can just see the patterns everywhere. Right. All of a sudden you have... Of why we do what we do as a humanity and

you look at over history and you know history with anthropology is talking like 300 000 years and you just see these patterns that people fall humans fall into isn't it nice like you get a worldview that you can integrate into your personality kind of i just i mean i accept things way quicker yeah as soon as i like if you have a context that works, you know, so, you know, you can do right for yourself and right for others, you know, but also see the expanse of it. Yes. It's amazing. And I went from feeling like I didn't belong anywhere to I literally belong everywhere. I am of the world.

Every and all of us are. Yeah. You know well that's that's magical magical and then there i was as an actress playing people from all over the world kind of you know although that's all changed because there's a lot of specificity now people want to like if you're if you're if there's a movie with the lead is trans you've got to be trans if there's a movie where the person's brazilian you've got to be brazilian yes it makes sense to me but people want to see themselves on screen because screen is so important right right that there's a they're like if you're not represented then there's nothing to reflect for your importance it's like you're not relevant

right and so you're you're trying to adjust and adapt and become something that you're not because you don't know the other way or how a person like you exists in the world yeah dig it yeah yeah it's like i i guess you know what it's like i like someone sees themselves on the news in the background of a reporter and they show all their friends for weeks yeah look at me i was on there because they feel that they're validated yeah that i guess that's like one yeah that's a i i can see that right that's an exciting thing i'm on tv yeah so you want but that's me on tv like you gotta watch i was on the news but to see somebody who's like you with a cultural background or has the same yes sort of you don't want to see yourself being played by someone who isn't you but who gets to

be you because they're more important than you. Right. And also you'd like to see, you know, you represented, period. I mean, it's like being played is one thing. There was a long period of time where there was no representation at all. At all. No one was playing anybody. No.

Yeah. It was just one type of person that was allowed to get up there. I think that, like, not ago that did i really put that together because of gina davis's movie and and that movie that she helped produce uh about the directors in hollywood and about you know she did she's part of this documentary where she just you know realized that you know little girls aren't they're only represented in very specific ways when they're younger oh i don't know so how are they gonna oh i'll show i'll show it to you after so how are they going to model themselves what are they going to model themselves after

how can they have any hope then then to be anything other than this small you know myopic you know these these very few choices about modeling themselves when men and little boys have the whole world and girls are like you can be a ballerina or you know and i and i it's so true well it takes into consideration yeah the power of the medium and of entertainment and of absolutely and how much it dictates our lives and it's like when you really kind of like not that unlike that moment you had when you got anthropology in your head there's that moment where you realize oh my god this is a fucking travesty. Yes. And I could have gone through my whole life thinking that.

Yeah. You know. Sure. We need to. Gotta have your mind blown. There are really important things to learn. Right now, like specifically because we're up against some real fascistic shit. Yeah.

On a global. Which relies on ignorance. Sure. And promotes ignorance and promotes misinformation. But, you know, it's a global trend, you know, and, you know, whatever progress we've made as humans, you know, it's not it's it's tentative in the face of that might of ignorance, you know. Yeah. So there's a real fight to be fought. ignorance you know yeah so there's a real fight to be fought like even with the the stuff around being woke and around women like you know i talked to events or i know who's a dear dear friend of

mine yeah i love her i'm i'm on the board of v-day with eve oh yeah i'm actually that was another my mind was blown because i met eve when i was 21 oh wow and i saw her performing she was on a world tour of the vagina monologues and she was performing at this pub in Islington in London. Wow. And I went along. A friend of mine had said, Were you at Cambridge at the time? Just finished.

Okay. So you just finished and you were going to go back to acting. I was still acting. Yeah. That's how I was told about Eve. Did you act at Cambridge as well? Oh, all the way through. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. I was always on the motorway going up to london to get on a plane to go and make i made five movies when i was at cambridge it was nuts okay it was nutty okay so i met even and my life was turned around yeah yeah how so um she well first of all just hearing her on stage yeah the experiences of of women that she'd obviously met and interviewed and just the taboo nature of everything that she was saying and and how that was opening people up to feeling that they weren't the only ones you know who didn't who are ashamed of their bodies who'd been sexually abused and um and i spoke to her afterwards and within minutes i was talking about my own sexual abuse and she was smiling at me and proud of me and i didn't feel ashamed

and she took shame away from my experience just by encountering me. Just by listening empathetically. Just by listening to me and saying, rather than making me feel like a victim, I was a survivor. And I was radiant in that. And also so very not alone. So very not alone. And so she and I became friends. And I started, because I was an actress at that point, I was already, I was 21.

I was, I'd been in a few movies. I was on the rise. So you did, you did like Jefferson and Paris interview with a vampire when you were at Cambridge? Yes. No kidding. Yeah. Point, Jefferson and Paris, Sally Hemings character is a bit of business. And you know what?

At that time, there was no DNA to support the fact, the truth of that. That happened after the movie, you know, so we were speculating. But I mean, to go to the house of Thomas Jefferson and be served your lunch by young men who looked exactly like Thomas Jefferson, who were Sally Hemings children. Like what? It's' children. Wow. Like, what? It's mind-blowing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. America has come a long way. Yeah, it's come too long to go back.

It's come a long, long way. It's inspiring, really. So, yeah, when I spoke to Eve, there was definitely a period, that know, that engagement with her. And I was, you know, I was sort of in awe of her to begin with. But the book. The apology is just. Oh, my God, man.

It's a revelation. Come on. It's a whole new way of thinking. A whole new way of claiming your freedom. It was something else. You're right. And I just read it on a whim because I get a lot of stuff sent to me. You knew.

And I'm like, I got it. You knew. I'm so glad you guys spoke because you encountered her so beautifully. You were so open. But you allowed the book to really challenge you. Yeah, yeah. And obviously that is, of course, because Eve is so ready to accept a new way of thinking. She's so open, you know.

Yeah, she's great. And I just, I used to see her around New York. I've always really was, there's certain people in your life that you don't know when it's going to happen or how, but you need to, you need to be with them. Yeah. Yeah. For a minute or two. Yeah. An hour.

And you got to, and you had such a great conversation. Yeah, yeah. But she's, I was emailing her just this morning. I love Eve. She's extraordinary, and we do a lot of great work together. Yeah, she does great work. Yeah. Which organization?

V-Day. Right. So I'm on the board of V-Day. Congo's heavy, man. It is. So I'm on the board of V-Day. Congo's heavy, man. It is.

But my God, to go there and see what with so little these people, these women are achieving in their lives. And they've come back from the dead in psychologically and emotionally. They were destroyed by the violence, the sexual violence that they've experienced. And rape is a weapon of war. violence that they've experienced and it's rape is a weapon of war and to have the realization because eve went to congo and after this is the vagina monologues has completely dictated eve's life that that's she's just followed where she you know where the call is and she found she didn't even want to go to congo because she knew it was going to just take over and be. And it's the epicenter of the worst that can happen to a woman. It's the worst place in the world to be a woman.

I've read once. Have you gone? Yeah. So she went and there's an amazing gynecologist called Dr. Mukwege who won the Nobel Prize two years ago, who physically heals women. There are two hospitals in the whole of Congo where if you can get there, they will surgically try and put you back together. Most women don't survive.

But she... How does this, like, this is... It's called the Pansy Hospital, his hospital. Is this ongoing, this assault? Oh, love. In terms of it and it's what is the social structure around it well within congo congo is huge and is obviously many neighboring countries i know she probably told me this stuff no no i don't not when i

heard your thing but um and neighboring countries which are going through their own conflict. And Congo is not like the borders aren't well policed. So you just militias go in from other places. Congo is very rich with resources. So very quickly they can gain enough money to then buy more weapons and leave. But the way they get the money is by mining for minerals and you go to an area and there's no roads so you can be hidden in forests and different militia at any one time there's you know 20 militia different militia fighting different wars within congo rearming to get out and they they use the local people to mine.

But in order to do that, it's kind of slave labor. And the way to control an environment is to abuse the women and have the men unable to help the women and have the children witness all of that happening. And then those male children are taken away and told that what's happened to their family their mothers and sisters raped and their fathers murdered the people that did this we're going to go get them and then they're trained up to be boy soldiers and this is systematic and it works and it's free you know you can destroy an entire community and you don't even need any you don't need finances to do it. So when Eve went to Congo and met Dr. Mukwege, who has surgically managed to heal many, many, many women, she said, what do we do? What can I help? How can I help?

And he said, well, women, I can physically heal women, but it's their minds and their hearts and their spirits that I can't. So that's why she developed with women in Congo, with survivors from Pansy. She said, what are we going to do? It's called Pansy? Pansy Hospital is where Dr. Mukwege works. And so they said we need a safe space where we can be together and not feel ashamed and get strong enough so we can go back to our communities who have rejected us and be proud and survive. So within, it's called the City of Joy, named by the women themselves. That's what they wanted it to be called.

And it teaches them self-defense, how to use a computer, how to have a bank account um group therapy all the things that are going to give you the mental and emotional confidence to be a leader and we've had now six years of graduates because you can be there for six months and you have to have leadership potential to go there that's the other thing but within six months and you have to have leadership potential to go there. That's the other thing. But within six months, these women have left. There's a documentary about it on Netflix called City of Joy, which charts the growth of, well, about Dr. Mukwege, his meeting with Eve,

and it charts the nine years to the City of Joy. And it's flourishing. It's amazing. And it is, we need Congo. 40% of minerals that are used in electronics goods come from there. And that's what these go yeah on my time off you do yeah get to get to the city of joy hang out with my friends just to sit down and say to a woman who has been devastated by sexual violence to say i was sexually abused too they can't believe it you were sexually abused but you're from over there. I'm like, yeah. Power is the, you know, the corruption and power is the same everywhere.

And just for them to feel like there's someone from over there. Sure, that it's a global thing. Yeah, and that's going to maybe try and help. Right. But what I get back to is what happened to me, Mark, is nothing. I don't give a shit. It helped me be here now. Yeah i would not have met eve i would not have helped these women that i know jane and all christine and and all of them sure right it changed the way you saw yourself in the world i have a purpose which is so

much bigger than than anything i could ever have imagined because of trauma because of my trauma what happened um i was uh and the reason i pause is because you don't have to tell me no it's not because it's because it's prehistory sure because because it i don't give a fuck about that person yeah um and person oh the person i don't give a fuck about that person. Yeah. The person. Oh, the person. I don't give a fuck about them. I was a virgin and I was, it was statutory rape. The director that I was working with. Well, that had hired me when I was 16. And I. Not the guy who directed Flaherty.

Yes. Oh. But, and it was a bleak time. Those 10 years, I was robbed of a lot. But again, in talking about even when you were younger around being different, how long did it take you to frame it properly? Oh my goodness. I mean, like what- Because I was the perfect victim, love. How long did it take you to frame it properly? Oh, my goodness.

I mean, like, what... Because I was the perfect victim, love. I was so... I had such low self-esteem. I had no sense of self. It was all about... I absolutely bowed down to authority. Completely. Because it gave me permission to just be.

And also, you wanted to be part of this thing. Yeah. I mean, also it was a movie. That's like fantasy land. So was it a negotiation? What do you mean? Did he ask you to do something to be in the movie? No, no.

I was happily doing the movie. My dad, it was in Australia. My dad was with me, bless his heart, as my chaperone. My dad got super bored. Because I was having a nice time. I was 16. Like, woo, this is amazing. Yeah, my dad got super bored. Because I was having a nice time. I was 16, like, woo, this is amazing. Yeah, you're in a movie. And after a month, my dad just thought I was having a great time.

I was a teenager. And he said, look, I'm going to head back home. You're clearly okay. And he actually got the director promised that, well, to my dad, I found out later that he would take care of me and he said you know i'll i'll look after tandy i'll take her out for dinner the night you leave to make her feel and that was that was the night really yeah fuck man yeah pretty pretty rough and went on for a long time past the shooting of the movie oh yeah because it was it was a mind control too because

i'd never had sex yeah and it's a mind fucker i it was like this is what it is yeah all right you know yeah um and even if i felt uncomfortable which i really did and afraid which I really did I thought that's what you did feel when I thought that's what yeah that's the way it was yeah to be afraid and to feel a bit uncomfortable you know so taboo no one fucking talks about it so okay this is what it is and it was, I was feeling more and more, it was clearly not pleasure. And the fact that it was secret too, I was asked to keep it a secret. Really? For the whole time? Yeah.

Well, for two years, certainly. And then I started, I was very unwell i was i had a terrible eating disorder i had a lot of shame and i didn't really understand why i just knew i was killing myself there was something and i i left that situation like said that this has to stop because i just i was having really bad physical like symptoms after, um, around the food and stuff. Yeah.

But just like the feeling of my, it was just, I wanted my body to disappear. I just felt gross. Um, but I, but I couldn't blame that person. I had to blame myself for that feeling.

It's like, I didn't even know why I was doing anything. Well, yeah. It was just like instruction, do it instruction. And I and i came from it was a movie i was in a fucking school uniform in that movie i played a school girl it's like you do what your teacher tells you i mean i can't but also you had that the it was sort of from you were when you were younger too you had this kind of i who am i you know yeah thing that and also very powerful figure

and and i was getting the attention yeah that's that's a lot i had powerful figures that were just fucking couldn't wait to get rid of me because i yeah and you know as a child yeah well because i was yeah i was black pain in the ass but the um but and then you think the eating disorder definitely manifested from that oh my god yeah i mean physically the shame just wanting to just like literally disappear and get my just get to vomit out yeah the the feeling the shame and so i went i went to a therapist i actually called my the girl my girlfriend i told you about who i met when i was a child jessica i called her one night and I thought I was going to die my heart

was being so hard in my chest and I was so thin and I was so scared and I called I said I'm frightened and this is what's been happening and so I went to a therapist for the first time and within minutes this therapist had connected my shame and eating to being sexually abused. And I just didn't have the knowledge. And it, of course, the following day, I stopped hurting myself physically. Really? The following day.

Because you're very open to having your mind blown, and it did. It did. And you're like, of course. It was just an explanation. Right. It was an explanation. So, yeah.

And then I, you know, got my life back over time. It damaged my family horribly, this whole experience, because my dad left that day. Oh, so he felt responsible. Oh, shit. And my mom hadn't been there. And the reason my mom hadn't been there is because she thought no one would take us seriously because there's a lot of internalized racism my poor mother you know you don't grow up in a colonial in colonial africa you know without thinking that you really are nothing even if you're a princess oh well because they just the

colonialists disbanded all the royal lineages. They stopped people from being able to even mention them. You are no longer a queen. You are no longer a princess. They did the same things as Congolese rapists did monumentally. Yes, exactly. That's the way it works. It's a thorny, thorny. And also what this guy did to you on some level.

And you know what else, Mark? What I've also realized more recently is, and I was reminded by it when I was watching the R. Kelly, the documentary about the girls. They kept repeatedly saying, we're black girls. No one's going to listen to us anyway. And there was an element of that in this in that no one was going to listen to me. Yeah. I was the perfect victim. Like, well, not only am I a little girl, I'm black.

And like it's the kind of hyper sexualized objectification of the black girl. But also it's the and I can do what I want to you and no one's going to ever know about it because no one's going to listen to you girl. Yeah. But also it's the, and I can do what I want to you and no one's going to ever know about it because no one's going to listen to you anyway. Yeah. And how times have changed. Right. And what did, now you were,

but this happened long before what's going on now. Oh yeah, but I talked about it a lot. Early on. Oh yeah. Well, as soon as I went to therapy,

I came out like, right, this cannot happen to another little girl i was publicly yes and i i i would and i could see it happening everywhere and it was also happening to me not as badly but because i would as soon as i got a whiff of it i'm like fuck you i had like casting couch bullshit and i would call it out and other actresses would unfortunately i was ostracized not only by the people preying on young women yeah because i was obviously not someone who was um gonna you

know roll over right but um also people who just kind of like went along with things just because that's how you get ahead so don't rock the boat so they also wanted to sort of not be associated with me too i had a publicist very well-known publicist who who represented me at the time who called me up one day and said tan you've got to stop talking about this stuff because it's just not good for your reputation systemic well because it wasn't good for my reputation i well it really wasn't to be the one going this industry is disgusting disgusting. This is what happened. This happened to me.

So look out, people. But you were ahead of it. Yeah. And so do you feel that it did have a direct impact on what your career could have been? Yeah, for sure. I remember not wanting to do a movie because the director said to me, the first shot is going to be this tight close up. It's going to look like a deep blue road, right? With like the yellow stripes going down the road, you know.

And we're going to pull back and realize that it's the denim of your jeans and the stitching so tight on your ass. And it was a massive movie. And I'm like, nope. And literally that movie would have turned me into a major star. I remember it. Yeah. I was like, I just can't. I just can't work with that.

That's horrible. And it was not with any kind of like pride. It was just fear. Like, I just can't. And also, you know, the realization that you reclaimed yourself. So why would you give that up? I couldn't. Like it was, i literally couldn't

right it would be like vomiting again right right couldn't do it can't go back worth living with that well because i knew that it was life or death life or death to really well to be back in an environment back in the shame to be back in the shame life or death life or death and when did you turn a corner around you know being regrounded in in your career you know my career was always like i what would happen then of course is that i would find myself working with people who weren't like that so even though there's plenty of them yeah and even though i may not have been earning as much as i could have been yeah I was working on kind of cool stuff, which didn't make me rocket to that place, which unfortunately, and I felt terrible about that, by the way,

that I said no to a project that would have, my manager and my agent were both shouting at me, saying, what are you? What movie? I can't say. Why can't? Well, because I just can't. You didn't even say anything bad about that guy, really,

other than he wanted to shoot a picture of your ass. But people worked hard on it, you know. Was it a big movie? Yeah. And, yeah, so I chipped away. But I actually think that in the long run, it's better to just cruise along on good stuff than to have the highs because you can crash so far and also you know who the hell knows you could have become a monster yes right well i would have i could have been i could have become a stupid self-absorbed um unempathic person it just seems like you know whatever the trajectory of your life has been

that you know sort of you met the right man you got a beautiful family you work all the time you don't have the pressure of being some sort of strange you know movie star which is not great no no you know i get to have a real life yeah and i get to help people that i really well everybody's deserving of help and i get to do that with quite a few people and in in in a real in an honest way not as a way oh no it's not like an accessory or just sort of like i've got to do something to to make myself feel better right no. No, no, no. It's none of that. It saved my life.

It saved my life. That's a beautiful thing. And I've got these two daughters who are dope. They are so, they don't even realize it because it's just been this invisible nurturing and invisible information. How old are they? 19 and 15. How old are they? 19 and 15.

So how did you deal with some of the conversations that you would have liked to have had with your parents that didn't happen with them? I had the conversations. Oh, you did? I talk about what happened. They've seen me give talks. They've seen, they've not read interviews, but I'm very open about it. I'm not ashamed of what happened because it's not my shame. On all levels.

You mean your childhood experience and the sexual? Oh yeah. Right. Absolutely. And you do a talk. I did a TED talk. Okay. Not about sexual abuse,

but about, uh, I guess being on the other side of racial, uh, hatred, I guess. Um, and they, my daughter, my 15 year old is an actress now i mean so not what i kind of yeah it wasn't like i didn't create any opportunities for her quite the opposite

yeah but it's happened and to see her on set to see her in a photo shoot to see her be so gracious and yet have absolute self-awareness and to you know it's not like she's afraid because mommy's like talked about these monsters that are out there because i've actually humanized the people that have done what they've done you know because nothing because they are human well and also because trauma begets trauma begets trauma unless you interrupt that cycle, you know. And the girls are, their eyes are wide open. They're kind, but they question authority at every turn. Yeah. That's a big one for me.

Yeah. Is to, you know, to make sure that you have given permission for that authority to be in place. And you provided them the ability to develop a sense of self. Oh, utterly. That's good. Yeah, I'm proud. You've broken the pattern. Yeah, and I thank my mother for that too because she did the absolute best.

Oh, she did so great. She did the best that she could and i and my dad too you know i think that's some but i think it's very interesting that kind of because even like from what i understand about the character that you do now even even in west world that you have a a robot who is realizing her situation and pushes back against her programming. It's basically my story. Yeah. And your mother's story. Babe, that first season was everything.

I had no idea that I was so well-equipped to play that experience. It was like the perfect metaphor for, I mean, look, it could be the perfect metaphor for a lot of people, not just women. Right. You know, but to inhabit that, it's like it gave me complete closure. Oh, so that's what. It sealed off. No kidding.

So the experience of immersing yourself in that. Because it was a beginning, a middle and an end. She went from creating the trauma. Because it was a beginning, a middle and an end. She went from creating the trauma. You know, she was the madam of the saloon getting these girls to be raped and, you know, gross. And then to have the awareness and then to educate herself in order to break free, not just from the part, but to free herself from her ideas about herself and others and morality and so on, and then to say no.

And to then the second season is I would rather die, which is that crash moment too in the movie. I would rather die. Oh, you were in Crash with Matt Dillon. Yeah, I would rather die than have you dominate me in any way, even to save my life. I guess the question like in terms of talking about humanizing monsters yes is that yes you know is is that moment where he

because it can be viewed as as him not changing at all and actually again being in a position of power or you know as a policeman doing his the duty of helping somebody in this particular situation even though he violated you in another situation like it's a complicated bit of business it is and i think ultimately the story what the story is saying and is trying to portray is that even someone who does something awful can awful can be redeemable if they truly understand the nature of what they've done which is eve's book the apology right but that guy never really did no he died right she had to create that guy from her own heart the oh yeah that fucking that book is insane it's insane it is insane but you know what we can we can we can heal ourselves.

We don't have to hurt the person that's hurt us. That's right. And we don't have to continue the pattern. No, we don't. And that's really incredibly sophisticated. And so we have these brains. We're not simple mammals. Yeah, we're not monkeys or dogs. We can these brains. We're not simple mammals, you know.

No, yeah, we're not monkeys or dogs. No, we can love them as we do. Yes, but we can make choices. And so it's on us to go further with making things better. Thank you for talking to me. It's been amazing talking to you. You like the coffee? Thank you. Yeah, I finished it.

Oh, good. All right. So now when I turn the mics off, you're going to tell me the name of the movie. Okay. But no, I'm so glad you came.

Thank you, Mark. I'm glad I came too. Candy Newton, the lovely, charming engaged tandy newton the new season of west world is on hbo sunday nights and on hbo streaming platforms my special end times fun is uh is on Netflix globally, streaming around the world. Okay? All right. I will now play my dirty old guitar,

my 1960 Les Paul Jr. through a 1953 Fender Deluxe amp through a MXR Echoplex, which is an updated version of the original that doesn't use analog tape. This is a meditation, almost Spaceman 3 type meditation, in two chords. Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon Thank you. Boomer lives.

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