WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1121 - Liz Garbus / Andy Kindler

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

Filmmaker Liz Garbus knows the importance of telling stories. Her father is one of America’s preeminent First Amendment lawyers, defending people with important stories to tell like Daniel Ellsberg and Lenny Bruce. Liz used her filmmaking skills to make a documentary on her father, just as she’s done with subjects like Nina Simone, the New York Times, and maximum security prisons. Liz and Marc also discuss her first scripted film, Lost Girls.  Plus, old friend Andy Kindler joins Marc to celebrate the release of his first comedy album ever. This episode is sponsored by Patreon, SimpliSafe, and Stamps.com. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what the fuck tuckians what the fuckocrats what the fucklicans. What's happening? How are you? Is everybody okay? Is there a dire tone to my voice right now? Can you hear it? Are you okay? Talk to me. Can you hear me?

Can you see these? Look, how many am I holding up? Can you smell this? Can you feel me? Can you feel this? Can you feel me can you feel this can you feel that are you okay snap out of it snap out of it oh i should read you that email yeah let me get hold on let me get you this email subject line snap out of it mark craziest damn thing ever i'm not someone who talks to myself out loud ever but but I was just walking along, walking my dog, feeling miserable about everything. And I heard you say at the beginning of the Dan Levy episode, how are you doing? You doing all right? And I said out loud, and I remind you, I am not someone who speaks out loud to himself. Not good, Mark. Not good at all and you said and i have no idea whether you were quoting the movie

moonstruck or not but you said it loudly and in a somewhat share like voice snap out of it and i did i laughed heartily anyone watching me would think i'm a truly crazy person thank you and have an amazing day i will now continue my walk and continue with the episode, but I simply had to share this in the first few moments after it happened. Yours in serendipity, Nick. You're welcome, Nick. I hope you're still snapped out of it. Huh? It's easy to fall back into it. It's hard to stay snapped out of it. Am I right? God damn. Oh, there's another email. I think this is important. By the way, my guest today is film director, usually a documentarian, but this is a feature film. Liz Garbus is here. Her film Lost Girls. That's it. It's streaming on Netflix. She's also directed a lot of documentaries, but she's the she's the person I talk to today. Also, Andy Kindler. I'm not saying the shorty is back, but the shorty might pop up every once in a while now that we're doing interviews in a different way. Also, I want to give you a heads up about the cat mugs, the Brian Jones mugs. Right now, I can't give the cat mugs to any guests because not many guests are joining me here in the garage. But you can get your own ceramic cat mug right now and act like you've been here to the garage.

These are handmade by Brian Jones, my guy, my potter guy, my potter pal. And he's donating a percentage of the sales to the Connecticut Food Bank. Go to brianrjones.com slash shop starting at noon Eastern today. Get a mug. Here's another email.

Please do the USPS a a solid and this is from a postal guy mark i deliver mail and i've always been happy to greet my customers and hand them their mail when they come out to see me however due to the current situation i'm wondering if you can help provide a public service announcement which is please let your mail carrier put the mail in the damn box we realize that you miss physical and personal interaction, but we deliver to hundreds of houses, businesses, and apartments each day. Please help us keep all of our customers safe by not coming out of your house and taking the mail from our hands.

I deliver in Texas where not everybody is taking this pandemic seriously. If you can help get the word out, maybe I won't have to become a human billboard and wear a sign telling people to keep six feet away from me. Thanks a lot, and I'm glad I got to see you on your tour stop in Dallas last year before the world comes to an end. Stay safe. Joran. All right, you heard the guy.

All right? Say hi to your mail carriers from a distance, but let them put the mail in the box so folks as a general warning in a general way uh and i don't even know what it means but uh understand that angry desperate people uh are vulnerable to being told what to do with that anger and it might not be good and a few things on the list of things that angry vulnerable desperate people aren't quite capable of is uh perhaps empathy thinking of others and um tolerance just a general heads up and i'm not talking about any type of person i'm just talking about if

there's a way that you can reach out provide a little something a little support to people who are desperate angry and vulnerable that would be a good thing that'd be a mitzvah it would help you and them. I don't know how you're going to do it. I don't know if it's with money, with a hello, anything. Because it's going to get bad. And more people are going to get sick. And that's what's really happening.

Look, and I know there's a struggle between our cognitive selves and this dissonance. You know, there's a whole other narrative being pummeled into our brains. And we want it to be true. But I don't believe it's true yet. We're not good. It might not ever be as good as it was. But one thing I can tell you for sure is we are not good. And there's some movement on the side of the people in control of

some people's minds saying like it's all right we're gonna take a hit but if it's lucky it won't be you now get back to it but we're not good so enjoy some movies try to stay in the present we'll ride this out you all right snap out of it also that's another thing that's interesting about this time is that nothing is going to be the same if and when we get out of this so even though we're compromised there is a sort of intimacy to what's happening in most people's lives. You know, lock in. Get deep. Feel it. Understand who you are to yourself and to the people that are important to you.

Get the love, man. Tap into the love. So here's what I've been doing. Movies. Here's the movies I've been watching. I watched, obviously, I watched Lost Girls. My guest today directed it. I watched In a Lonely Place.

It's an old Nick Ray film with Gloria Graham and Humphrey Bogart. Tremendous. Lynn dragged me into the 1970s private eye movie hole with Night Moves starring Gene Hackman and Drowning Pool starring Paul Newman. Neither one of those films had I heard of or seen. Both had their high points. Those leading men, specifically, great. Melanie Griffith, oddly, in both of them as well, as a teenager almost, I believe. The Assistant, I watched with that, is her name Julia Gardner from Ozark?

Great actress. Really powerful little film. The Assistant, new film. Takes place in an office of sort of a fictionalized Harvey Weinstein character. But it's all on Julia, and she's tremendous. I watched Tony Erdman, which is a film I wanted to see in New York, a German film which I could not see because it was always sold out back when it came out. Finally got to watch that.

Long film, weird film, great film. Tony Erdman. Watched Ace in the Hole for the umpteenth time with Kirk Douglas. Billy Wilder film. Tremendous, dark, interesting, always relevant. Ace in the Hole. And Ride with the Devil, a a very odd interesting approach to a civil war movie directed by uh ang lee with jeffrey wright and skeet olrich and toby mcguire and jew

and and jewel uh never heard of it lynn turned me on to that movie too it didn't it got buried by uh the studio because they didn't know how to sell it because it was about basically Confederate soldiers, one of whom was black. Interesting. And that person was Jeffrey Wright, who I talked to, and I wanted to watch it before I talked to him. So that's what's going on there. All those movies I can recommend. Right now, I want to bring out or bring on a guest that I've had on many times before i love the man his debut comedy album hence the humor comes out tomorrow may 8th you can pre-order it today from a special thing.com or get it wherever you get your albums it's about 40 years in the making this record

and i had to get andy on to ask him what's the backstory, Andy? But this is me talking to the always funny and I just love the guy, Andy Kindler. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes.

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Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. I'll start recording now just in case we say anything great. We've already got through half of it. Yeah, that's right. But don't keep it fresh. Keep it fresh.

Okay. How's it going over there? Do you have enough coffee? I do have coffee. I know we do. I certainly hope our differences with dark roast and light roast won't prevent us from joining together. I really don't know if that's going to happen. Are you drinking a dark roast? No, I'm drinking a light roast. And I know that you enjoy PG tips.

I do. But listen, I have switched to light roast, my friend. I think probably because of something you told me. I drink almost exclusively light roasts now. Right now, I happen to be drinking a dark roast because sometimes I crave the flavor of a dark roast, but I understand the nuances of the different types of flavors that happen in a light roast. I understand them. Wow, this is a different you. It used to be you'd be like, do what you, just give me something with your stupid,

and you'd knock me across the room somehow. Now, of course, some things that are called dark roast coffee, like Intelligentsia, they make a dark roast, but it's not really a dark roast. What does that mean? It means it's just their version make a dark roast but it's not really a dark roast they they want to what does that mean it means it's just it's just their their version of a dark roast but they don't make any roast that's like a real dark roast all right no like a dark roast is when the beans are burnt and oily yes used to be called in the old days italian roast right right or or sometimes just like oh you you fuck that batch up. That's burnt.

I know that feeling. I'm so old, I used to have a percolator. Percolator. I think those might come back. Why don't you bring back the percolator? Well, my mom also had something in her basement, which I don't want to talk about. She had a Chemex. An old Chemex. Oh yeah. That's the big glass thing? The glass bowl on top of the glass ball? No, no, no. That's a siphon. That's a siphon. It's the glass cone. A siphon. It's the glass cone. Yeah, sure. Those are nice.

Every time I smoked pot in the basement of my house and my father was in the kitchen and I came back upstairs and I swore he had smelled it but he didn't. This is what he said to me. And I came back upstairs and I swore he had smelled it. But he didn't. But this is what he said to me. I get back up there and he goes, Andy, do you think I'm an idiot? And I was like, oh, my God.

No, you're a very intelligent man. Very, very bright. Because a lot of people would think I'm an idiot married to your mother all these years. He had no idea that i was smoking he thought and so it was one of those things he was just thinking about the misery of his life yes and i i as we talked about before i'm sorry to hear about your mother and your sister i know i can't believe i say it like i just found out i know this this i mean i haven't checked i haven't checked with people oh but i'm sorry i i thought you knew you didn't know i'm i'm sorry i didn't mean it i saw it on facebook i want to let people

know that i i i texted mark 45 45 times maybe maybe we shouldn't bring it up. Don't bring it up. You can bring it up. What am I telling you? You are Mr. Honesty. I mean, you know what I'm saying. You're Mr. No. We didn't have that much time and I know you were talking about it. Was there sickness? What happened? My parents, well, my dad died in 2015 and I used to have this joke where at my father's funeral, my mother turned to me and she said, Andy, I have to. But you? Which is based on a very, very old joke.

So that was very, very funny until the recent tragedy. And then I just lost my mama, who was 90 with Parkinson's. And I lost, my sister was a surprise. She was like 69 or something like that. Oh, wow. And she's been sick for many many years and nothing to do with the coronavirus so i don't want anybody people thinking your mother lived till she was 90 huh 90 that's good and she was uh uh also a quaker she converted from judaism to quakerism a very spiritual religion huh what's it called when you watch yourself on your on the

screen what is that is that called uh i have my new expression lego my ego yeah so tell me about this uh i can't let go of it tell me tell me about this uh this this record that's been uh what 40 years in the making that's i think that's probably the way it better be good well you know all of my uh my new thing now is like well everything i make podcasts everything's on vinyl i don't make anything else but vinyl. Are you burning this into vinyl right now? Is this going through a mastering process on an analog machine? I'm using an Edison spool for this one, but yes, you're correct.

I'm burning a wax disc. Nice. And then you'll press it into the metal disc, and then it'll mold to vinyl. That's right. No, this is something that took me seven years. I recorded it in 2013, Mark, and I had terrible OCD

as opposed to the attractive kind. Yeah. It means I'm not able to finish projects, but I didn't know until I was 50. I came to you when I was 50 and on Adderall and telling you about that change, but then I got on Prozac and then on OCD realized I can never finish things.

I can't let them go. I can't complete. But let me ask you a question. Does that have anything to do with the amount of weed? I think ultimately I'm in therapy. As you know, I'm in therapy. And every time I go into therapy, I expect her to go, all right, look, I've overlooked this for the last couple of years with this weed thing.

Well, what's your end game with this? What's your end game? You have OCD and ADD. So you think, oh, maybe if I add like a little more paranoia to that and forgetting. So I think you're right on this one. I don't think it's quite like a 12-step thing, but I think the pot's in, it's nowhere's bill. Here's my, this was always my issue with pot, is that a lot

goes on in your head, and it doesn't manifest into reality. That's true. Remember that bit that Rich Shardner used to do? He would go, I'd smoke pot to think about what I wanted to do. Then I would snort coke to get excited about what I was going to do. And then I would drink to think about what I wanted to do. Then I would snort coke to get excited about what I was going to do.

And then I would drink to forget about what I was supposed to do. And then he's used to that bit about how you do cocaine. You'd be with people that you never would hang out with. Oh, you kill people for a living? Oh, you have to do what you got to do. Do what you got to do. And then an hour later, I don't know if there is a gun, but if there is there is a god i think it could be me i never heard that take on it oh you kill people for a living hey you gotta do it oh you keep it that's cool you gotta do what you gotta

do you were never that guy you're never a coke guy right oh oh yeah i'm luckily i was unsuccessful yeah during the 80s and not able to afford more. No, I could see it would have been... There were nights where I had the... Underneath the shower. Yeah. And I thought my heart was going to explode. Yeah. No, I think I really did dodge...

Not dodge a bullet because after a while, I didn't like the feeling, but... Now, how are the George Bush jokes holding up on the record? I think you'll be very happy about this. I included future jokes because I knew it would take me a long time to release it. So I have jokes like, these are jokes for the future. That's a nice coat, sir. Where'd you get that? With Bitcoin. So I have a few of those. And I refer to President Boehner. I got that wrong.

Yeah, that was way wrong. President Boehner. That couldn't have been more wrong. But otherwise, it's actually sadly to say for me thinking I'm prolific, it's pretty evergreen. It all makes sense. Oh, it worked out? That's good. Yeah. There's none of me doing a four-hour bit about

the... What was that thing about my life according to Earl? What was the thing that oh yeah yeah yeah yeah the thing i remember it's a whole chivy show he had apologized for things or something i don't remember yeah i had to apologize and when you look when i listen back to some of the old things i made fun of on the old speech you can't even know what was that what is that show where where whoopee was a cop and the other person was a priest i don't know anything anymore i've become old i'm not up to speed i can't remember things from three days ago uh i don't really give a fuck about i'm surprised that i don't remember as this conversation i'm having with you goes by it's disappearing uh

seconds after yeah so um what's the hope for this record that you sell how many a million what are you projecting no this is it i really don't have ambition anymore like i used to lie i didn't have when i was younger i really have let go of sales because well if i didn't let go i might just be disappointed but i really am glad to get it out there that's the thing i feel like i can't believe how little of my own stuff is out there yeah except for like comedy central specials and things like that. So I think it's cool. And I love Mitch, Mitch, Mitch's album, Mitch altogether.

Yeah. I kind of like the idea of an audio album. So, you know, I'm not comparing myself to him, but I'm still alive, ladies and gentlemen. Yes. We remember Mitch. But I think that a lot of your stuff is out there in the hearts and memories of all of us, Andy. It sounds so... I really hope something similar to this when Susan arranges the funeral thing that you say.

And if you go long, I swear to God, if you go long... Oh, Chris, don't forget, Jeff Ross is going after you. You know I'll go long, yeah. How's Susan doing? We're doing good. You know, we're both... She Jeff Ross is going after you. You know I'll go along. How's Susan doing? We're doing good. She's healthy. I'm healthy. We're not leaving.

We're both OCD-ish, so we're not going to go into germy areas. I haven't been in the supermarket. How are you eating then? How are you getting food? We have cooked. Susan has made dinners. I've made dinners. You deliver the food?

You have the food delivered? Yeah. We wipe it down. That part, which I still don't like But you deliver the food? You have the food delivered? Yeah. We wipe it down. That part, which I still don't like wiping, disinfecting food. Maybe I shouldn't take it out of the package. Yeah, there you go. Is this going to really add? Come on, Mark.

The face is going to work good on the podcast. So have you talked to any of our friends? No, and this is the thing. I don't know if you realize this, but I have gotten into the thing in life where i didn't call anybody and i was afraid and i would always go well if i call someone they're gonna think i didn't want to get together well what's your excuse now andy they can't get together so i really hope that i will be contacting people and i am starting to do it that's the other side of having like an addiction to social networking. Yeah.

You don't keep in touch with friends. I really, that part of the quarantine, I really kind of like. What, not talking to people and not feeling pressured to see them at all? I don't know what I'm saying. It's about the, without the obligation, then you really can reach out. Oh, right. That's right. I was having so many excuses.

So many excuses were blocking me from like oh they're gonna want you to come right over they don't want you to come over they don't want to see you so it's like the old days i used to have fun conversations in the right you remember those days yeah no i i've been doing that i've been trying to do it but i'm surprised at how few people actually reach out to me um but i'm always surprised about that well people are people assume that you're that you're busy you're one of you're in the category people go he won't what is he gonna what do you mean no one's got anything to do right now i gotta you see the excuse my excuse i should be reaching out

to you and i use the excuse oh mark's too busy he doesn't want me to say hello it's all on me no i don't worry my friend i'm coming around i think people are very hung up on you know they're very uh caught up in their own little thing right now and it's a scary time so i reach out to a few friends i've had a few long phone conversations with people i guess you know like when i really think about it i only have a few friends anyways and i've talked to them so that's good i miss the fest and i really do that's the one thing I do miss is I know this goes on forever. I'll miss festivals and things like that. But a lot of the things about being around people, I don't miss.

I don't miss going to a MAGA rally and having hateful people spit on my neck. Yeah, no, no. But, you know, it's fun to wear the hat. But you miss going to festivals? Yeah, because that's all i've been the last few years i've been i go to moon tower i go to the various montreal and toronto and i really like it because you see your friend you do get to see your friends there yeah everybody all at once what's the album called andy hence the humor oh do you thank anybody on the cover on the back? No thanking.

This is another thing that got it will never be a physical copy. I was old. I was delaying it by going. I want a physical copy to sign after shows. I never want to see a person after a show for the rest of my life with the handshaking and the sniveling and the sniffing. This is sanitized. No physical copy. So, no, I don't thank anybody anybody and where do you get the thing well uh you can uh it's coming out friday so it'll be available like on a special thing they're the uh record label company but then it's everywhere apple okay where do you like to go

i'll go to the apple where do you get it okay good yes good and you can pre-buy it there now i will i will make sure everybody knows that andy i love you very much mark i hope i haven't sounded too hungry no on this but if you could also pitch my my mugs oh what are you selling these mugs like these mugs but you put the name on afterwards look you know the thing to say what kind of hey mug what kind of coffee you drinking what's the brand uh today i'm drinking i never had i never had la is it la mill yeah yeah that's good stuff you know i've never tried that before it's excellent a brazilian where'd you get that had it shipped from there or wherever

they ship in la that's pricey shit man but it's good right that's good quarantine coffee i okay i'm drinking i'm actually drinking my own brand right now the the wtf dark but um i love you too buddy and make sure you love you brother let's send that recording to right now because it's going to be better this one was a disaster okay man i love you brother love you too be good that was andy kindler again his uh album hence the humor comes out tomorrow may 8th you can pre-order today from a special thing.com or get it wherever you get your albums now my guest liz garbus uh was excited to have her uh I was always kind of mildly obsessed and interested in her father, the lawyer Martin Garbus, for the work he, constitutional, famous constitutional

lawyer. But I was mostly obsessed because he represented Lenny Bruce at some point. But he was also involved with Daniel Ellsberg. Very interesting backstory. But Liz Garbus, in her own right, has directed many great documentaries, one about her father and one about Nina Simone that was very popular. That one was called What Happened, Miss Simone. Lost Girls is a feature scripted film. It's her first with Amy Ryan, which is streaming on Netflix. And it's a powerful movie. And this is my conversation with liz garbus how are you liz good nice to meet you i'm a fan well that's nice i'm a fan of yours as well do we i don't we've never met right no but one of my closest friends and almost family members because of a convoluted story is Jesse parents.

Oh, okay. Okay. You've worked with on glow. I think I've worked with him a few times and, um, in any case, uh,

I don't, but it's really nice to meet you. Nice. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So wait, when did you go to Brown? Do you know my friend,

Sam lipsight? Yes. Sam's girlfriend forever. And then he married the, you know, but it was, uh, yeah, I know, I know Sam very well. See, forever. And then he married, you know, Cordovan. But it was, yeah, I know Sam very well. See, I met Sam when he was dating my ex-wife's best friend. I don't know what the timeline is, but I don't know that many people from Brown. But I just talked to somebody else who went to Brown.

I talked to Laura Linney yesterday and she went to Brown. She did? But she's older. I think she's older than you. So wait, where on the Cape are you hanging out? I'm in Truro. And end of March, early April, I came up here with my family

to escape the city for a little while. Although I feel, yeah, tremendously guilty. And we will be returning, but it has been nice to have the fresh air. Oh, you left to get out of New York. Yeah, we left. My kids had a school break. I was like, what are they going to do?

You know, whatever. It's champagne. It was, you know, champagne problems, right? We had this option and we availed ourselves of it. Yeah. But like, how do you like as a thinker, like, you know, your person that's done like a ton of documentaries and documentaries have a specific point of view. I mean mean does your

brain what's your brain doing now in light of this thing in terms of what you think is an important narrative are you thinking of any um well look i think for me my brain i think probably like most people can deal with the here and now you know yeah this is as an individual not as a filmmaker as an individual i can deal with today today's now, you know, this is as an individual, not as a filmmaker, as an individual, I can deal with today. Today's good. You know, today is fine. I'm, I'm blessed. When I try to project out over time and I listened to, you know, depressing podcasts with smart people, then I start to think, then I can reel a little bit, right? Like, how does this work? I think about my children and their childhoods and, you you know and then I also can see the silver lining of that you know I can

see that the you know the look after world war one and the the the flu of 1918 we had the roaring 20s you know after world war ii um we got you know we got health care we got expanded you know there are all kinds of positive after world war ii we got uh we got health care. We got expanded. You know, there are all kinds of positive things. After World War II, we got Levittown. We got Levittown. Well, and we did get some other things as well. You know, we had, you know, increasing women in the workforce. We had better health care. You know, and there were good things as well.

So I do try to hold on to that. But as a creator, I'm very interested in protecting democracy. That seems to me like one of the most important things. I don't think I can add much to the discourse around the science of corona, but I think that, you know, perhaps I can inspire people to want to hold dear this democracy and protect our rights. So in any case, those are the kinds of things I go to because we now have a government that reflects, doesn't reflect the will of our rights. So in any case, those are the kinds of things I go to because we now have a government that reflects, doesn't reflect the will of our, of our people. Doesn't reflect the will of our people.

Yeah. And it's just going to continue going further down that rabbit hole. And I think, you know, we are not a direct democracy, we're a representative democracy, and we deserve to have those representatives reflect our points of view. Well, yeah. And I think it's interesting too. I watched a new film. Well, I think it is Lost Girls, the first film that you first, I guess, movie movie that you directed. Oh God, you're going to have

the documentary police coming after you. Oh, am I? Well, you know, we think documentaries are movies. I mean, it depends what they are. If they're feature docs and a lot of them go to theaters, we think they're movies. mean it depends what they are if they're feature docs and a lot of them go to theaters we think they're movies okay let me rephrase it i get it no no i think they're movies too uh i was just trying i i didn't i didn't know how to present

that that the genre of film that that is it's a it's a it's it's scripted right not fictional scripted yeah and you know what you know what? I often get asked that question. I'm sort of the perfect target for this particular question or one of them. And often people say to me, this was your first narrative film. And then I can get even more high and mighty about the fact that documentaries are narrative. Narrative means we're telling stories and documentary. Do that. Oh, my God. It's essential to documentaries to have a narrative, of course. And also to, uh, to end in a slightly ambiguous way. Right. To leave you, uh, more confused and depressed. No, no, no, no. Um, but yes, this is the first scripted film I have made. I worked on commercials and in college I made

films with that, you know, but this was the first full fledged scripted movie narrative film that I directed. Well, that's interesting to me because like, let's go back then, because I watched the last night because I had not seen it. I watched the doc with you made with your father shouting fire. Now I had this weird thing about your father. Cause my, my first lawyer in show business was at your father's firm and Richard Pernett. Is that who it was? No, Nancy Rose. Oh, okay. She was, I don't know what, you know, she wasn't a partner or anything, but she, you know, she started at Garbus. What was the name of this? Garbus? Who were the other names? And then she left with Joe DiPello. Right.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, but like when she told me about your father, about Martin, I was like, Oh my God,

this guy's amazing. Why don't, why don't I like, but, but she's not that kind of lawyer. Your dad's not an entertainment lawyer. Your dad like was this huge first amendment guy. Correct.

But he's a, he's a mythic sort of lawyer who you argued several times in front of the Supreme Court and defended Lenny Bruce. And so I didn't know a lot about him until I was starting to do research on you. And then I watched a movie. And he said a couple of things that were very interesting to me relative to your upbringing somehow. Okay. Well, there was just this weird question. Like, I'm watching and I'm like, you know, I like learning about the Constitution.

I like learning about the struggles around free speech and how everybody has to be defended if you want to make it really free and yada yada. But then you asked him, you know, in relation to the Ellsberg situation where, you know, he was hiding those documents at the house or copies of them, and that he could have been arrested and put in jail for whatever it was, treason or whatever, for years. And he said, did you take in mind that you have a family? And he said, well, yeah, but I don't put those in the same, like, you know, they're two separate things. But then what he said was like, you know, I realized that I could be put in jail. And it seemed like that, that his principles allowed him to say, I think that the act that was done would form some kind of bond.

Like that if he were put in jail, that that in and of itself would create something lasting enough for you as his child to define who you were. That's how I read it. No, you're absolutely right. And I had forgotten that comment. That film was from some years ago. And I think that's right. I mean, look, I think in the moment you do things because you're excited, you know, you've got these documents. It's a leak.

It's the best leak going. It speaks to the crisis of the moment. You know, what if you had a document right now that said Trump is holding the, you know, the vaccine for Corona in his house until he can make a bajillion dollars in two years or whatever, you know, like whatever the scoop was that everybody wanted, you do it, right? Like you just do it. And then I think the true answer is when you do those things, as he was doing with the Pentagon Papers and Ellsberg, you just you just do them because that's who you are. And because you're you're maybe in some ways narcissistic, but in other ways, altruistic and committed to something larger than yourself. Right. and committed to something larger than yourself, right? But in retrospect, right. In retrospect, he was still able to frame it as he was willing to make that sacrifice

because how that would be interpreted by humanity or society or his children would be large enough and principled enough to make up for the fact that he's in jail or that he didn't you know he didn't put his family first like he was putting his country first to a certain degree right yeah and i think you know i think that's right look if my father had gone to prison for some amount of time for you know for fighting that the pentagon papers be published in the new york times i would honor that know, if I had lost him for years and years. I mean, I think he is right. But I think you honored anyways. You just didn't

need that drama. It's fortunate that we didn't have to have that drama. Yeah, that, you know, you didn't spend the life, you know, from that age when you were very young with a father in prison, with your mother wondering, yeah, how are you going to make ends meet? Is there any money left from the law practice? And, you know, maybe you wouldn't have gone to Brown. Who the fuck knows what would happen? Absolutely. You know, but then, you know, another one of my father's clients was Kathy Boudin, who was part of the Brinks robbery and part of the Weather Underground loosely. Right. And, you know, her son, Chesa Boudin, just became what, D.A. of Berkeley. You know, he grew up, he lost his mother to prison. She was

recently released. I mean, he lost her for 30 some years. You know, I'd have to fact check that. But, you know, so certainly in that case, seeing what Chesa Boudin became, it became him, someone really, you know, committed to social justice. What his mother did, she regrets. I mean, she doesn't defend the fact that the Brinks robbery that she was involved with, you know, ended up killing black police officers, working class people, and they were involved in the struggle for black freedom. But in any case, you know, you can see examples where those kinds of sacrifices create wonderful offspring. I guess. And when did you start? Because it seems to me that, you know, your father's work and and and struggle and fight for for I guess it's justice, but for the most part, constitutionality. When did that start? Did you consciously were you aware that that had an impact on your thinking? I can't say that there's a moment. Yeah. At some point I thought I wanted to go to law school and, you know, kind of do what he did. And then I realized that in some ways, and he actually told

me that, that there were very few people who could kind of end up doing what he did. And especially as we were moving into the eight, you know, it was post Reagan, 90s. You know, he came up in the 60s, right? And it was like, it was a much smaller group of people doing that. And that perhaps it could be not the career that it would have been then. Right, he was dug in.

He had a reputation. He was part of, there was a small crew of them. And to enter that world as a newbie, you know, they are doing God's work. That is as a human being living your life, working those cases. I mean, that is, those guys are like saints. I mean, like they, they, they, they're not well, extremely well paid given what the kind of options they would have with law degrees. And they are, they lose all the fricking time, you know, they lose because the system is so stacked against them. So I guess at some point in the mid-90s, whenever I was kind of thinking about these things in a clear way, I decided that being

a storyteller was my way through. And the first film I made was a film in the prisons called The Farm in Gullah, USA. And that was your first documentary? Correct. Yeah. How'd you start in the film business? I was an intern at Miramax. Oh, yeah? Did you deal with the monster? So for those who don't know, Miramax was Harvey Weinstein's company before it became the Weinstein company. You know, very tangentially, I was an intern.

I was like, they didn't even give me a chair to sit on. I was just like standing at a Xerox machine all day long. So I was so far from him. I do remember one day being called into his office and the door closing. And the only thing that I remember about that being in that office, maybe he met with interns, you know, once, maybe that was part of the company protocol. I don't know why I was in there. But the thing that I remember that, that washed over me in the biggest way was it was so quiet. The room must've been soundproof.

I mean, it was just so quiet in there and that's, and then I kind of, it was weird. I was uncomfortable. My dad was a lawyer and he knew my dad. So who knows what the dynamic in that room was. If Harvey was thinking about that at all,

you know, knowing what he was getting away with, maybe it was irrelevant. Maybe I wasn't his type. But in any case, the thing that I remember was the quiet. But that was one of my first jobs. Well, it wasn't a job. It was an internship.

And then I went to work for another filmmaker, documentary filmmaker as his assistant, whose name is Jonathan Stack, who I ended up co-directing. I was his assistant. And then I brought an idea and I started working on it and we ended up making the film, The Farm, together as co-directors. So it was through him that I had my first chance and I worked my way up. And that was about the prison,

Angola Prison, right? Yeah, that was about Angola Prison in Louisiana. It was a former slave plantation turned prison farm, you know, after reconstruction. And it, it really focused on people serving life or death sentences. And it didn't focus on questions of innocence, which I, it focused on, you know, how do you make a life for yourself? How do you find meaning and hope and get out of, get it, you know, get up in the morning when you're living somewhere and you know, how do you make a life for yourself? How do you find meaning and hope and get out of get it, you know, get up in the morning when you're living somewhere and you know you're going to be buried 10 feet from that from that spot in that prison cemetery where there's no chance of freedom? And what does that life look like and feel like? So it was not a film about judgment. It was a film about um a world do you see like i'm just kind of piecing this together as we talk because i've i've made fun of the uh amount of documentaries available

currently in the sense that like it seems that everybody thinks they can make one that is the easiest way to sort of get involved is to make a documentary. You can do it with your phone. You know, people think that you don't have to really be good at anything. But the truth of matter is you do honor the type of documentary you do. You're a journalist, really, right? Well, that's an interesting conversation. I don't think I'm a journalist precisely because of that word we both touched on at the beginning, which was narrative. Now, of course, there are journalists that are wonderful narrative storytellers. And so I think of myself as a nonfiction storyteller. The reason I don't

think of myself as a journalist is because I've spent a lot of time with journalists. I spent a lot of time with reporters, and they're very much beholden to, I'm going to get a comment from the other side. Well, if I don't have four people saying this, we can't put it in the story. Documentary filmmakers, we don't have to do any of that. We have a point of view on a world and if it feels truthful to us and we feel like it is expressing something larger, it doesn't matter if nobody else says that about it. You know, do we have to check our facts? Yes, but we, as documentary filmmakers, we take the mushy, messy clay of life

and sculpt it into something that has a shape, a beginning, middle, and end. And in doing so, you're leaving out a lot of that other clay. And I think that's a freedom that people who have the word journalist in their job title have to be very careful about. Right. Because you can like I get it because really the difference is it's about point of view. Yes. So like a journalist, if they're doing it correctly, should not have a point of view per se. A reporter. or a nonfiction novelist? You know, I mean, I don't know. It's like, what are those distinctions?

What is Hunter? I mean, I don't know. I think that there are differences and I think it's important for viewers to be aware of that. I guess the distinction that I guess I'm trying to make or that should be made is that a reporter versus a journalist, there's a distinction there as well.

Like a reporter is a kind of journalist, right? But, you know, just like a nuts and bolts reporter before they get a point of view, before they become a journalist of a certain specialty, their job is who, what, when, where and why. And that's what that's what they give you. So inherently, it means that there isn't it doesn't have to be a sense of of storytelling in a traditional sense, I guess. Right. Yeah. And look, there are journalists who will say here is life in a small town and they'll depict it right without getting counterexamples. I mean, that is similar to what we do. Yeah. Right. I don't know why I just I don't know why I asked it, because people say that to me that I'm like my responsibility as a journalist and I'm like, no, I'm not. I don't really see myself as that way. Do you know what I mean that? And, you know, just because people glean things from what I talk about with people doesn't mean that I'm serving as a journalist or a reporter, you know it's just a weird thing that people backload on to me but how do you like when like so you're doing film work you're not sure that you want to do documentaries when you're working for Weinstein or you knew no I didn't know I didn't know I mean I was interested in feature films too I thought I had 20 great ideas you know I mean it was I had all of these

all right you were going to write a script and whatever i was writing 20 you know lots of them yeah so what was it was it a default to decide to do documentaries or what compelled you to do the one you started with and i mean which was obviously great um what what why why the decision you know i don't know if it's a decision so much you know it's like when you look at your life are these all decisions or they're maybe some people have cool decision making moments I feel like I'm I'm walking on a path and I'm I'm choosing the best turns as I see them um but I I I went to work I got a job you know as an intern at Miramax and I wasn't paid and I was also doing other things and then I and then I got a job as an assistant to another filmmaker and this was this Jonathan Stack, and he was making documentaries. So you got kind of, you're like, wow, this is cool, basically.

Yes. And then I ended up connecting through a series of strange incidences with an inmate journalist named Wilbert Rideau, who wrote a magazine, a newspaper out of Angola prison in Louisiana. Now, how do you find, like, you guys are producing you direct some you produce some but it seems like you have about 10 documentaries going on at all times well i don't not as a director no director right yeah but but what is it what what is your production house like how do you kind of divvy that stuff up well you know as you say there has been an explosion in the form of documentary right like I mean it's just been happening and projects will come to me that I cannot direct because I'm doing something else

yeah but I love them and I'm too selfish to just totally give them away. So then I try to find other filmmakers who I love and maybe have a little less experience or, you know, just are out, you know, and bring them in and help them get that project set up and, and going. I mean, I've been doing that throughout my entire career, um, Street Fight, which was the film about Cory Booker taking on Sharp James, the first kind of, you know, that was a first time filmmaker who brought some amazing material to me. And I was like, oh my God, how do we help? I want to help you make this film. So it's sort of an expansion of that.

And my husband is a producer and he, so we decided this would have been a terrible idea at the beginning of our marriage. But now some years later, we decided to put our heads together and, you know, broaden the mission of what we do by embracing a lot of other directors, you know, work in the company. I guess that's like, I mean, I think that's very forward thinking and also is like a kind of nice adaptation of the technology definitely favors, you know know the medium that you know or there's a documentary of making in the sense that like if you got an idea or someone comes in with an idea

to side to kind of wrangle i i would imagine to begin shooting is not like setting up a a scripted feature indeed but also you know the culture requires it i think that it seems the reason is not like setting up a scripted feature. Indeed. But also, you know, the culture requires it. I think that it seems the reason why documentaries are popular is because people crave that type of conversation. I mean, I don't, like, if you really think about it, and this is a curious question or observation, like the popularity of something like the Tiger King makes me nauseous.

And, you know, I couldn't watch a half hour of it because it felt exploitive right from the beginning. And it felt that, you know, this was not going to be like some sort of educational or sort of provocative documentary. This was a celebration of broken people doing shitty things. Now, maybe I'm selling it short. I don't know. provocative documentary this was a celebration of broken people doing shitty things now maybe i'm selling it short i don't know but that was my impulse was that that there's a morbid fascination that kind of coincides with the documentary boom is that possible yeah look i think that

you know what you know what is documentary is is is tiger came closer to reality television in some ways than it is to what we think of as documentary maybe um you know what's your thoughts on it well you know i um aren't we here talking about some of my netflix projects because i mean i look i think you know it was a moment in our culture where everybody was staying home. And this was the most, you know, wild escape that captured the imagination of what is it, how many, maybe 60 million people, there were some numbers I saw thrown around yesterday, just an enormous segment of our population tuned into it. And it provided a detour. And like you said, a look at people who were struggling and flawed. Many of, you know, in some ways they shed light on our current political

system. You know, the way in which a person like that can run for, you know, the emptiness of choices. I mean, I don't, you didn't get that far, but he, Tiger King ends up running for, I think, governor or something like this. And, you know, actually get some votes, you know, it's sort of incredible. So, but not incredible. Yeah, but not incredible. So I think it touched on something and I'm not sure I would call it documentary. I think one thing documentary filmmakers want to be able to do is go on to make another film. And I think that if your subjects are very hurt through the process of making one film, it could be hard to then get people to trust you moving forward. So that's an issue. Well, let's talk about the choices you've made. What makes you make a choice? Like,

you know, after doing, you know, The Farm, you know, what were some of the choices you made? Like, you know, how do you evolve this? Is this stuff that, like we said earlier, the documentary should be somewhat challenging and ambiguous at the end. So you're, you're like, I don't know, is it, or isn't it? It does that play into your choices? I mean, I like, you know, narrative at the end of the day for me is key. I've never wanted to make a documentary because I want, I want to attack this issue, right? Like that I don't see as my role. I see my role as telling stories of incredible people that you don't get to meet in your life, maybe, or that I don't get to meet and showing our shared humanity, even through people that you don't think you identify with. Yeah, I think that's it. Like, even if you don't think you identify with this inmate or maybe, you know,

and I guess that's where it goes back to Tiger King because I don't know that you find the shared humanity there. I think that for me, it's like you look at the stories that I've made, whether it's, you know, Bobby Fisher, the chess champion, Nina Simone, you know, the high priestess of Seoul, or, you know, some folks in Angola, like we connect with each other in all these different ways. What was the Wanda Jean doc?

And the Wanda Jean doc was, you know, this was again, this was a lesbian woman on death row in Oklahoma, who was going to be put to death for shooting her lover. And the question was, you know, in Oklahoma, clearly a jury could not find their way into any shared humanity with this woman. Could I, you know, the people who get sentenced to death in this country, it's such a small percentage of murderers, right? Of course, some huge terror, active terrorism. Okay. We see it, but just a murder, you know, there are a lot of murders and there are a lot of people who don't get the death penalty. Why do some? Well, it has to do with dehumanizing them.

And it's like in Oklahoma, that was a black lesbian who was sentenced to death for a crime that is, as far as murders go, the most basic. You shoot your lover in a fight. That's kind of what happens a lot with murders, unfortunately. So it was, it was, it was looking for that shared humanity there. Um, and I also worked a lot with Sheila Nevins who ran HBO and, um, we, I know that she, that was something she wanted to do. She wanted to find a woman on death row and Sheila Nevins who ran documentaries there and is a real hero of mine. She's a hero of documentaries.

Yeah. Yeah, and she was a mentor of mine. I mean, she really taught me so much. Like what? Okay, there are a few things she said to me. The Wanda Jean film was the first film I made with her, and I was stressing out about a rough cut that I had sent her that was about two, seven hours long.

And I said, oh, but it's just too long. It's too long. And I said, well, how long do you want it to be Sheila? And she said, Well, it should be as long as it is good. And you know what, that's true. It shouldn't be longer than it is good. And I have like, you know, it sounds very simple. But in fact, you need to rigorously evaluate your work. You shouldn't make it long because you think you're so freaking interesting and you want to look at your navel. You have to make sure that it's the right length for it being good and good for your audience. Right.

And other things, you know, she taught me was just to be fearless. You know, put the end of the movie at the beginning. You know, see what happens. You know, all those things that you learn as you grow as a filmmaker that in the beginning, you're like, what, you know, I did all those things, I learned those lessons with her, and she gave me the freedom, you know, many executives will just give you notes at 320, please trim, you know, blah, blah, blah. She talked to me about big picture ideas, try it, try throwing that there or try losing that person.

And, you know, what will happen? You know, she really, you know, she was in the sauce with me. She was, you know, and it just gave me a lot of freedom and a lot of confidence. And she, I mean, it seems to me that if anyone deserves credit for the elevation of documentaries to the degree that they are now and to the expanse that they are now. It's her. I totally agree with you. I mean, she is the,

I said Nina Simone was the high priestess of soul. Sheila Nevins is the high priestess of documentary. Because like HBO, like she had her own, like she ran that thing like almost outside of HBO proper. Like this was her thing, her empire in a way,

and she gave opportunities to all these different documentarians. She figured out two things. How to get ratings for her documentaries and how to get awards for them. And those two things

kept her alive. And, you know, and you couldn't, you needed both, you know? Yeah, where is she now? Well, she left HBO and she is running her own strand of documentaries at MTV of all places. Really? Yeah. MTV. Do you guys talk? Oh yeah. Yep. It was her birthday. I, we spoke recently. Yes. Yes. She's, you know, she's my,

I'm a real mentor of mine. Now let me, not to, me, not to distract from our conversation, I'm curious as to the conversations that you're having now with your father, who's, what, 85, you know, around, like, you know, obviously we talked at the beginning and that, you know, the thoughts about, you know, what is important now in terms of conversations

is how do we protect democracy? Now, what conversations are you are you is where's he at with this shit right now? That's a really good question. And one of the things he's talking about, which is, you know, kind of sad is, you know, his free speech stance, stance, which is that all the bad shit, you know, he worked on protecting the Nazis right to March, right in Skokie, Illinois, you know, a big ACLU case. Right. And now we see speech on the internet. And, you know, the whole idea around fake news and the kind of trolling. And he's, he questions his free speech stance in the era of online propaganda and fake news. I mean, what was the story this morning about, you know, propaganda, outward state propaganda coming in towards fomenting the

protesters who are walking around like idiots without masks and having the goddamn nurses come out of their job to stand up for themselves and say, stop making my job harder, you idiots. All of that conflict is being fomented by bad actors. And when you have the internet and you have Twitter and you have this, how do you protect truth well that's the thing i once said about twitter it's like maybe it was better when everyone didn't have a voice how do you protect truth how do you do it right and you know and free speech does not do that right free speech says the good and the bad comes in it allowed for lenny bruce it allowed for an orderly march of the nazi party but in the age of the internet, it's a whole different thing. That's right. Now,

because they're protected, they've untethered truth from any sort of precedent or barometer of what it is. So now that you have people who can live in information bubbles almost on another planet, they can question anyone else's truth with, you know, what's your source? Who knows if that's true? And that's the end of it. Exactly. And I think, you know, I think about what is being taught in schools like we need to teach. And I know I see this with my children a little bit about, you know, sourcing. Like if you read something, I remember during the 2016 election, my daughter came to me and she was looking at Instagram and she said, oh, do you know that Hillary Clinton is dying from a brain tumor?

She has a brain tumor. And I was like, so where did you and I just saw how like, you know, on Instagram, which, you know, I would have just skipped over it because I could have told from the source that it was, you know, a right wing source or whatever it was. But it was right there in my daughter's Instagram feed. How did you know? Yeah yeah how do we litigate that and i don't think my father has the answers but he's having those questions but you know but the the problem with litigation too on this level is that you know this is an administration that that is completely engaged in constant litigation uh you know, over anything, you know, for the specific reason to extend a time frame to, you know, to to kind of bankrupt his enemies. I mean, that's that's his way of doing things. And I don't know how your father approaches, you know, the use of litigation in that way to exhaust

funds and resources of victims. But I mean, that's another issue between the truth being, you know, nebulous and under attack is that you have over litigation used as a weapon, which has always been there. But, you know, now it just seems to be happening on every level. Are you are you reengaging with him as a subject? Do you think you should do that? I think you should have him on the podcast. I would. But I don't know the answer. I mean, it's like, no, I'm not reengaging with him as a subject at the moment.

But I'm engaging with him as an intellectual, you know, someone I learned from, an intellectual mentor. And it's interesting and you know these sometimes these private companies you know have seen like with facebook seeing the social pressures that have forced them to do some self-policing but it's negligible right given how much gets out there but they don't give a fuck about the truth that's the weird thing is that you know you've got this audience of of of shallow people who like i have a personal trainer person a woman who's relatively intelligent who last a couple weeks ago said did you hear i read that bill gates might have caused the coronavirus and right through it's like what are you talking

about right right right no i had the same i've had the same experience with somebody i was just like wait really like oh you believe that like whoa and but that's what they're fucking with see once you like untether the truth you're dealing with people's you know need to believe right so you know and if something seems has closure or honors honors their feelings about whatever they'll fucking just put it in there and it's actually much more comfortable to think oh bill gates started the coronavirus or china did this as an attack then to just think oh god the world works in really shitty ways and i'm not sure how we're going to pull out of it you know it's a much easier narrative sure of course and or it's an it's it's clearly an environmental catastrophe and it's a it's a much easier narrative. Sure. Of course. Or it's an, it's, it's clearly an environmental catastrophe and it's a, it's a collapse of

government. There's a million different things. All right. Well, we don't need to go crazy, but I, I'm very, I'm, I'm disheartened, but encouraged by the fact that, that you and your father are having conversations in that. Cause I, when I was watching your doc shouting a fire that,, it dawned on me, like, how does this apply to now where the freedom of speech is completely not only, you know, in action, but malignant? And that doc was what, 10 years ago? I mean, that was the beginning of WikiLeaks.

Like, I remember those were just the beginning of the questions. And we're in a whole different universe. And you're right. It should be updated. This is what it should be updated. You know, and then I think about civil rights leaders. Martin Luther King said, the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. Really?

Where is it? You know, and it's like, what are all these things that we believe from the 60s, thes you know like all of these things the bending that that curve has been flattened was uh so we've flattened that curve yeah yeah yeah yeah but no i i i think that what i notice more and even in moments where you know you see people like obviously the protests around these these right wing protests are, you know, misled people by by political forces. And being financed right by right wing. Right. They're presented as theatrical events, but they don't know that. They think that, you know, somebody is, you know, they just watch your Facebook post and like, oh, this guy Jed is going to start a thing. We got to go to the thing. So they don't realize that it's a bunch of conservative think tank money or whatever it is.

But but what I think what's missing is this. And this is the fear of what's happening now, too, with which is quarantine and not in a governmental or abuse of power way on the government level, but this lack of tangible connection between people, that people are so isolated in everything they're taking in and how they're taking it in. They're almost more lonely with the information they had than before, that the conversation among people in face-to-face, in real time, touching, holding, feeling common. What were you talking about? The common humanity or the shared humanity is is is collapsing. So, you know, when you have like legislators who were able to say there are more important things than living to, you know, as a defense to open up a state's economy, you know, you realize

like, well, that's sort of craven. But it's it's really honest about that. This this country is based on capitalism. And many of these people, one way or the other, though they've been hiding it, have sought to maintain the survival of capitalism no matter what over anything. That's understandable. But the fact that he believes that people will be like that guy's right means that there's an incredible lack of uh of of of connection between humans right you know it sure feels that way um and it it i think it has so much i'm sorry i don't know why

no no and no but i'll say i mean just to circle back once again, I mean, I think it has so much to do with who's elected. I mean, think about Georgia, right? Stacey Abrams might have been the governor of Georgia, right? But because of, and we're seeing Brian Kemp right now saying, you know, you can safely open a tattoo parlor. How do you give a tattoo? First of all, okay, so first of all, it's the failure of the state to protect people during this downturn, right? Like, you know, I don't expect the tattoo artist to starve and die. I expect him to be able to rely on the state that he's been paying taxes to all his goddamn life to help him through, right?

That's what I expect, and to keep him safe. And, you know, of course you can't socially distance with a tattoo parlor and and and there's going to be terrible effects but i go back to democracy and i go back to the fact that right now it says sort of like 60 some percent of the people want social distancing to last longer to so they can be safe and they don't have to have their their grand their grandpa die yeah you know or their friend who has that asthma and and but our our elections have been gerrymandered and suppressed to the effect right right point that we don't have that we have brian camp who's who's making these crazy things that does not reflect his people because you only need certain people to win you know because because you only need certain voters that's right it's

a hell of a gamble they're all making and And, you know, this is the fucking the fucked up thing about having such craven leadership without any national agenda around, you know, kind of, you know, helping us understand what's happening and how to take care of ourselves is that, you know, now we got to sit here and watch these states who are willing to roll the dice with the lives of their people. to roll the dice with the lives of their people, how that pans out. There's like, okay, here are the canaries in the coal mine of capitalism. If the economy is going to survive, we'll see how this goes. You know, it's a tough lesson to have to sit and watch that we literally, as people like my state, it happens to be a good state and they're doing everything they can and we have a decent leader. But now we're like, well, what's going to happen with this? everything they can and we have a decent leader but now we're like well what's going to happen with this and you know what about those poor people who are being used as as as sort of uh

the the the the stakes of this thing you know this gamble yeah it's fucking nuts right why is the conversation not about how do we protect our elderly in their nursing homes why are we not having how do we create jobs to do so you know how do we create safe what's the manhattan project to you know getting safe tracking you know where that that's the creative conversation right but we have a fucking a fucking president that hired a bunch of morons so we didn't feel outgunned and now nobody knows how to do anything and anybody who shows up who knows how to do something he's threatened and it's it's uh okay that's we'll make that documentary later um on it did you ever do air america my producer brendan seems to think you were around when we were around were you ever did you ever do interviews on air america back in the day

i know i think we hit you guys up a lot for different things. Oh. And now I can't remember what it was. Maybe the Abu Ghraib thing, but that was later. We were already kind of washed up by that. Maybe I was. Maybe it was still running. That might have been it.

So now the Nina Simone documentary I thought was amazing because I didn't know a lot about her. I honestly knew nothing about her. And because of that, you know, I have this new, you know, beautiful creative force that I can appreciate in my life. But what, what compelled you to do that? Well, and that's the best, best reaction that I hear because I think now, you know, people knew Nina and they listened a little to Nina or their friends put on Nina or they put on Nina but now you get this whole like 3d experience

of like knowing her and knowing her values and knowing her sacrifices and you bring it all to the table and you have this like such an intense react you know experience of listening to her that's like was my hope for that doc the depth um just yeah who is you know this who what is behind this voice yeah um but that project no it came to me one of the weird what you know sometimes things you know i got a call from somebody who said you know we have the rights to nina simone you know do you want to are you interested in directing this and i said i love her music i don't know much about her life let me do a little reading let me see if i feel like there's a story there because at the end of of the day, like we said, it's narrative. And, you know, you can be a great artist, but have a boring life. Not often, but sometimes. And, but, you know, lo and behold, that was not the problem here. You know, she had a, and, you know, and we were making the film about Nina Simone at the moment of the birth of the Black Lives Matter protests. Like it was a really rich time to be digging into her

personal history and what has been the response from like say the you know if you can if i can generalize in a non-exclusionary way the black community around that what is the feedback i mean the feedback has been really really positive you know i think we and we i had black producer you know we i had we had a diverse team working on the film and lee and nina's daughter lisa was very involved in the film so we had a lot of bona fides you know the at the same moment that my film was being made there was a zoe sabana film being made in which zoe played nina and that you know made a lot of people understandably angry because the darkness of Nina's skin, you know, the blackness of her skin was very much a hurdle in her commercial aspirations and her feelings about herself. And so it felt very wrong to people in the family to have Zoe, you know, a very light skinned, classically beautiful in the white sense woman um be playing Nina Simone

um you know I think that times have changed even since I made that doc which wasn't that long ago you know if someone asked me now to direct the film I I would I might think differently about it I might think that I should have a black filmmaking partner making the film with me I mean I did have a black producer but even director film with me. I mean, I did have a black producer, but even director. But at the end of the day, I think my team did check me and check my whiteness whenever it needed to be. And I haven't had that criticism from the film.

Now people are going to come listen to your podcast and I'm going to get hate and they'll give me the criticism and I'll listen. But at the time that it came out and I'm still getting feedback from people very positively about the film. So The Lost Girls, now after a lifetime it seems,

though you're not that old, but I mean of doing documentaries. Thank you. A lifetime of doing documentaries. Why, you know, I mean, not that it's not worthy of it, but why this story? How did how do you make that shift? Because it shot beautifully. The story's beautiful. But why this story and how did it evolve? Because it seems like it would have been a good documentary subject. You know, I I think there's a lot of answers to that i have always

been interested in narrative filmmaking as i told you when i studied film i was doing that too um i went down a path of making documentaries incredibly happily i love making documentaries i'm making more documentaries um but you know it's harder for the lady filmmakers to get the uh scripted film budgets right i mean of, that's changed over time. You said you're going out with Lynn Shelton. I don't know her evolution. But I kept on getting offered a lot more documentaries. I had some scripted projects I was working on.

And that was, it was a different battle. And people talk about how great is it that documentary has so many female directors. I'm like, well, it's a bit of a, you know, double edged sword because it's lower paid. Right. And the budgets are smaller. So, yeah, there are lots of women. What is it actually telling us? So but this film, you know, the script came to me. As I said, I've been interested in a bunch of narrative projects. This film came to me. There had been documentaries on this, Mark. So I didn't feel that I needed to make

a documentary. What I felt was that the story of Mary Gilbert, you know, this ass kicking, you know, Sally Field slash Karen Silkwood slash Erin Brockovich heroine was a story I loved. You know, I love ass kicking strong women. You know, she came from a world that would never have guessed she would be able to raise her voice and have it listened to in the way that she did. And, you know, and the story of her raising her children, that's really the backstory of mental illness in her family, the sacrifices she had to make as a single mother. You know, those were things that you could dramatize through the scripted form with great actors that were unavailable as a documentary filmmaker they were way in the past could you have talking heads talk about it sure but would you see it and feel it

differently with a couple great actors yeah so for me that was um that that was why i got behind this story and it was the you know the the rock that we were able to get to the top of the hill yeah and i'll tell you those the the actors like were amazing you know amy and ryan and the older daughter the middle daughter thomas and mckay yeah thomas and mckenzie is a huge talent what the fuck man i mean like you know like not even talking and i'm like choked up i'm like what's happening forget it i know shooting i mean it was all of us we were just like oh my you know you might have seen her in leave no trace and then she was in jojo rabbit she's a phenomenally talented actress we're going to be seeing a lot of her but it was like to me well it's interesting the way you frame the the

sort of like female uh heroine you know in comparison to like aaron brockovich or or or sally field in uh what is it norma ray but like it's interesting because the scale of this is so different i guess not so much than silkwood but like because you really like i found myself you know through a good third of the movie, you're not really liking Amy Adams character and questioning, you know, her, her, her attitude around the reality. Cause, you know, initially you feel like, is she in denial? I mean, does she not take, you know, it's a very complicated character that, that somehow or another, you know, you really are kind of wondering about until, you know you really are kind of wondering about until until it breaks you know until she yeah you know somehow the truth is revealed of her struggle that she's not just doing this out of

shame right you know or or anger at herself but but you know she was you know the best mother she could be you know i think that part of the evolution of of female roles is um allowing women to female characters to lead movies who aren't immediately likable you know for sure yeah yeah and i think that you know i really chafed at some of the you know notes you might get when you're making your film, making her likable. It was just not, how are you supposed to be fucking likable if you're raising three kids on no money, four kids, no mental health care, you have a bipolar daughter,

you have somebody who's doing calls, doing sex work while putting herself through college who then goes missing and nobody gives a shit. Why are you supposed to be likable? You know, come on. That's not the story. I'm not saying it to you. But I'm just saying, that's the that's what I'm, you know, that's what I was. I was working on, you know, and then it comes back to the shared humanity thing. Because then by the end, you're like, I hope you're like, I get her, you know, I get it. Of course. And, and that's, and that's, that was why I loved it. You know, and you're like, I get her, you know, I get it. And, um, and that's, and that's, that was why I loved it, you know? And you're right. I don't know if Norma Rae

or Karen Silkwood had those likability issues. It was a different moment, you know? Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, it, it wasn't even so much likability. I mean, I certainly like a flawed character and, and a character that I, you know, I have to kind of really reckon with, and I think she's a great actress but I think exactly the feelings I was having you know reflect my own judgment so like it almost does in a sense you know what a documentary would do like I found myself the weird thing was to be honest with you as a man you know when she refused to accept that her daughter, you know, could possibly have done drugs, you know, I, I sided with the other, you know, drug addled prostitute.

I was like, you know, I can't, you know, I, I literally said, you know, like, I can't take characters that, that, that aggressively are in denial. And it turns out that she probably wasn't a drug user. Right? So there was that moment where I prejudged based on, you know, the characterization of these type of women and also being someone in recovery who was mad at her in that moment for not accepting that it's possible that her daughter had a drug problem.

It really wasn't. And it wasn't even a hinge to the story, but it it was like one of these things where i'm like what a stubborn bitch that woman is you know like yeah and i think she would agree she was a stubborn something but i think that also it's like it just goes to the irrelevance of what i think the fact that people were trying to make it relevant to shannon's disappearance whether or not she was on drugs right the woman is gone she's running down the street in the middle of the night saying, help me. This isn't about whether or not she used coke and calls. And so I think that that kind of, once you understand that you're in that position, you're like, of course it's going to make you

mad or just, you know. So I think that it's it's it's just the fact that it's brought up to dehumanize Shannon to make her work. I think that's right. I think. But I also think that speaks to what we were talking about earlier, is that, you know, all of this kind of like rabid politicizing and this sort of like the kind of malignant fake news trip. of like the the the kind of malignant fake news trip it's all dehumanizing you know because in a sense i'm not saying it's it's the same but this like for me to kind of buy into that to like you know to diminish the fact that that we lost a human being here it's something that is incredibly uh relevant to the way they're discussing this virus and the way that we have a president who's unwilling to even address the number of dead, you know, with any empathy that there's a dehumanization, you know, not let alone how immigrants are treated. It's it's something that is that we're being trained to do, which is, you know, speaks to what you're thinking

about the future and how you know totalitarianism sinks in is through well yeah it's like if you heard they say 50 people were dead in this nursing home near my house in cobble hill brooklyn and what if you split that you said oh 50 people dead at a um you know at a high school like or an elite high school you know what at a high school, like, or an elite high school, you know, what, what would that run? We're on a bus on a bus. Like, it's just right. Like, it's like somehow the fact that they're in a, it's really, um, if young people were bearing the brunt of this, I'm so, you know, I'm not wishing that, but I'm just saying that discourse might be very different from, from the top. Right. Yeah. But I also think that because it's a a health issue that everybody's

like you know in denial like you know denial of one's mortality is like you know front and center in everybody's kind of unconscious thing like nobody wants to think about that and the idea that you can be out in the world and get something that's going to kill you they just people do not want to think about it right right hence not wearing a mask you know it's immature it's childish but um but back to the movie uh i thought it was beautifully acted beautifully shot and you know and and it was now that you're telling me uh you know how you were thinking about it in terms of of representation of women and victims and and you know, our pre-judgment of people. It's very, it's provocative. It's great. Good job. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Mark.

Sure. So now what are you spending your days doing? Are you guys working, you and your husband? What's up? We are working. I mean, the beautiful thing is that we, I, you know, you can edit as you know, from, you know, a closet, like, and so we were pretty a little bit ahead of the curve, and we're able to set up all these remote edit stations. And I have a series that's finishing on HBO. Are you friendly with Pat Niswalt? Yeah, yeah, him and I go way back, we are doing a series for HBO based on I'll Be Gone in the Dark. His wife, his former wife's now deceased book. So I've been really busy finishing that series.

Oh, great. And it's been great to be able to work through this period. Oh, great. And let me ask you another weird question because I've been sort of mildly obsessed with. Do you remember when you started using the word storytelling and when storytellers and storytelling it just seemed to come on the scene you know like all at once like

the word authenticity. You know like there are these sort of buzzwords like you know I can see how it's sort of replaced narrative but like it's a relatively new idea to kind of start to use the word because actors use it all the time now too it's like well i see myself as a storyteller i'm like did you always though you're like when did that happen where did storytelling come from

it's such a good point and and my brain is flashing if you're obsessed with it my brain is flashing to some emails i got at some point or another from the sundance institute talking about storytelling labs i wonder if there's a genesis in the utah area from that i don't know i'm just making that up but that's the first thing i thought of i don't know but there's right that might be it but also the the the moth and the storytelling shows like there was something you know that this like it was a mode of expression you know one like like a replacing stand-up almost in in some respect that that the storytelling performance series started that kind of integrated as well right no i think that's interesting when do you think it started like five ten years ago yeah it's fairly recent because i'm annoyed by it i'm not annoyed by you but like you you know

it's like i'm annoyed by it in the same way that i'm annoyed by you know authenticity and artisanal yeah people started saying on the bubble a lot yeah oh yeah sure that's another one what that means doubling down like doubling down big That was big. Trump really did that. The journalists really kind of pushed through doubling down with this presidency. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. I don't know. So I won't. I'm a filmmaker. I'm not a storyteller. No, I won't tell him the story. You can tell stories. I just was curious if you realized that it was a newer word for you. By the campfire. Oh, yeah, exactly. It was great talking to you.

Thank you for doing this. Thank you for your service as a storyteller. When do we start the interview? Oh, that's right. We're going to start right now. And I'm glad that everybody's healthy there. Thank you. Thanks so much.

I'm glad that everybody's healthy there. Thank you. Thanks so much. That was Liz Garbus. The film, again, is Lost Girls, which is streaming on Netflix. She's also the director of many documentaries, including What, try to make it clear to the desperate, angry, vulnerable people that things are not good and there's still sickness out there, like all over the place, okay? We can't get clouded by desperation or desire for things to be okay.

Okay? All right? All right right keep your information clean then okay Thank you. Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting

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