WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1122 - Cate Blanchett

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

Conventional wisdom holds that Cate Blanchett is one of the world’s greatest living performers, but one person who disagrees with that is Cate Blanchett, who thinks she’s pretty terrible most of the time (her words, not ours). Marc and Cate try to get to the bottom of why she’s so hard on herself despite her many career accomplishments. They discuss The Lord of the Rings, playing Bob Dylan, why her hair fell out when she played Blanche DuBois, why Al Pacino is her hero, and why she took on the story of Phyllis Schlafly in Mrs. America. This episode is sponsored by Patreon and Pataday Once Daily Relief. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? Mark Maron here. How's it going you all right

did you get done with that thing hey is there really a hurry on that is there i mean come on spread it out we got time welcome to the show thanks for coming a lot of you might be new here an amazing guest, a real movie star, Kate Blanchett is here. And she's not here. I talked to her over the thing, but we had a nice talk. I looked at her while I talked to her over the video. I feel like we connected. I feel like we got into some stuff. But mostly just what a charming intelligent insanely talented human to uh to sit there and talk to for over an hour just fucking amazing she's starring in this new limited series called mrs america streaming now on fx on hulu And it was actually the second time we talked. The first time we talked, you know what, let me explain to you what happened later.

I've got some stuff going on. It's actually, I'm kind of, it was a jarring day today. I actually recorded this a couple of days ago because I woke up to the news that Little Richard had passed away. actually recorded this a couple of days ago because i woke up to the news that uh little richard had passed away it was it's it's tragic in that it's as tragic as when any artist goes but it's not like he was young but he was great little richard was great he was the drive shaft of rock and roll in a way that nobody else was one of the primary

architects of the thing that he just like little richard just his fucking intensity and groove pulsed all the way through it all the way through it right till today but certainly through oh it's just he was a force man and he passed away and i have this box set this mono box set of his first five records i think i don't i don't even remember where i got it but it's out there and i was so happy i had it because i put it on and it made me remember that little richard was the reason I'm 56, it's not my music per se, but it was certainly my dad's music. And it kind of brought me back to that place. You know, there was a couple of records

that got played a lot in the car when I was a kid. The soundtrack to American Graffiti was one. And then some Dick Clark collection was another. Oh yeah, and the Buddy holly collection we had that and buddy holly covered uh slipping and sliding which was a little richard song and obviously the beatles covered a couple of little richard songs and i came to little richard that way i was, but it was like, it was just mind-blowing.

The pace of it lights you up. It fucking lights you up. And then it just got me into that place where I was thinking about things I got from my dad. And then I started to realize, like, I kind of thought, like, well, this is what connects me and my dad. From when I was a little kid that, know he shared this with me but it made me realize that a lot of the things that i kind of think i shared with my dad it was just me watching my dad get excited about something granted that's sort of sharing it but it wasn't like he pulled me aside and said you know i'm gonna teach you something it was just like he would put on

this music you know buddy holly the big bopper little richard but he would get so jacked in the car listening to buddy holly it was just it was exciting it's like look he's not yelling and he's not sad he's singing along it was it was like oh my, this stuff is making my dad feel better. What is it? So I don't know if that's really like my dad and I have, we share this thing, you know, that we have this, you know, my dad gave me the gift of music. It was just sort of like, oh, thank God he's singing. What is this stuff that works?

But the truth of the matter is it connected with me. That one, four four five thing like that's all i ever wanted to do it's all i ever wanted to play it's all i ever wanted to learn how to play it definitely dug in and we definitely lost one of the greatest ever the greatest there is no music without him there is no rock and roll without him no david bowie no ramones no uh lou reed no oh there's nothing there's nothing without him so that was kind of sad it got me listening to a little bit listening to a lot of music lately like today i listened to all five of that box set and then i threw on john lennon's rock and roll album which is an odd album

but it was great to you know kind of follow that and then uh uh i did some a gene clark record the other i think it's called someone sent that to me what a great fucking record that is just doing a lot of time taking stuff in. Being a student again. Not just enjoying stuff, but kind of like, why is this good? Why is this great? Asking those questions again. Not just taking it all for granted or taking someone's word for it, but sort of taking it in, you know, taking it in. Hey Google, where was Little Richard born? Little Richard was born in Macon, Georgia.

Hey, Google, which Little Richard songs did the Beatles cover? On the website Variety.com, they say, The Beatles, Long Tall Sally. Start here when it comes to covering Little Richard with all the rabbit intensity required. Captured during a drunken, legendary concert at the Star Club in Germany, live. Okay, thank you. So, I'm sad about Little Richard, but I was happy to listen to all those songs today.

It was kind of fucking amazing. So, it's been kind of an intense few days over here at the house uh had a little covid scare somehow or another lynn came down with something i don't know how you know we're both always if we go out we're masked we're gloved we're out there doing limited engagement she had to go the doctor for a thing last week i don't know but we go the supermarket occasionally but somehow you know two days ago she had a sore throat and a little bit of a fever and i'm like fuck here it comes here it is we're there we got it or she did anyways and uh turns out she went got scheduled for a test because we live in california where you can get a test no covid so then it becomes like how did she fucking get

something you get this idea in your head it's the only fucking disease out there right now that there's no but it does sort of like you don't no no matter how many precautions you take, unless you're in a hazmat suit, the bug can get in. Some bug can get in. The bacterias are all over everything. They're everywhere. Somehow or another, something got in. Like a sore throaty strep thing. No lung thing, no COVID.

But she went and got swabbed and said it was quite an experience. She said she got her brain tickled, but thank God it's not that. And she happened to have a Z-Pak around, so we'll see if that clears it up, and hopefully I won't get sick. But COVID is not the only sickness out there. Always a lot of sickness out there. Man, I wish we all could get tested everywhere in the country. We all could get tested everywhere in the country.

Had some sort of national government supported and provided testing situation. So we know how we can start living life again and who needs help and who doesn't. Everyone needs help now. But she's okay. She is all right. Hey, Google. now but she's okay she is all right hey google what are the symptoms of strep throat according to mayo clinic common symptoms include sore throat fever and swollen lymph nodes in the neck rarely complications can involve the heart or kidneys oh all right all right. Well, I'm not going to tell her that part. I did want to read one other email if I could. It says free speech in the subject line. Hello, Mr. Marin, listening to your conversation with Liz Garbus just now, and you all were

talking about the problems with unbridled free speech in the age of the internet and social media. My thought is that free speech should remain unbridled, but internet anonymity should be eliminated. If people had to own what they put out onto the web, they might be a little more civil and responsible. A right to free speech shouldn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech. The internet is more like broadcasting

than it is like assembling in a group. Broadcasters have to register who they are and are responsible for what they put out. Anyway, that's my two cents. There was another email here. I can't seem to find it about that, about mediated speech. Let me see if I can find it. Oh yeah, here it is. Great episode with Liz talking about free speech, lots to chew on, but is what's on the internet speech? It's not exactly humans speaking to each other. There's an intermediary, the platform and laptop. So it's processed at best. And what it's best at is spreading the whatever it is that's being spit out. It just doesn't seem like we're closer to realizing the difference. Doesn't seem like we're closer to realizing the difference. Anyway, thank you for being as candid and honest as you are on your show.

Always thoughtful, be safe and be well. Ah, you too. Let's see again. Gordo 89 STX. But who is that guy? Am I talking to him? It is an interesting question. How do you how do you reel that back in?

Given that it has the power to influence so many with such utter bullshit? It really isn't about speech anymore, is it? It's something else. And I'm sure this seems like an intellectual conversation that that has that has to evolve in the middle of a crisis around what the fuck is true and what isn't. We don't have time for that. All we have time for is the hope that some people will source their shit. And what's incredible to me is that the QAnon crowd and the conspiracy crowd, whether they know what's up or they don't, they are the biggest suckers in the world. They just kind of buy that shit, hook, line, and sinker.

And they call the people that watch whatever they consider mainstream media or whatever my sources are. I don't know what the, I watch some mainstream media, but I also read some newspapers. I try to mix it up and I trust the credibility of the sources for the most part. And if I don't, i i go a little deeper but it just seems they believe whatever feels good yet uh somehow or another we're the ones being duped you know not the ones that say uh scamdemic or plandemic the big sort of overarching conspiracy

to what of course man if you take a bunch of shit and put it together from history and mash it into the narrative that you want, that's satisfying and implies some broader sort of conspiracy that you want to believe and that you've got the secret truth about this huge thing. Why wouldn't you? If you're a sucker. So look, she was one of the first. We tried. We were doing. We started doing these video chats where I can see the person I'm talking to, but we don't record the video. It just helps me connect.

And Kate, when we set it up, we were doing it on the platform we were using but it didn't work on her iPad and all she had was an iPad she didn't have a computer so we were doing it and then as a backup she said she would record it on her phone on the voice memo and we talked for like 45 minutes to 50 minutes when she said oh no you to hate me. And it had gone off at like 13 minutes. So then we had to figure out for this, for the new version, we had to figure out a way to protect ourselves and also use Zoom, which she could use on the iPad. Now we have a couple of things we're using

to get these conversations. But we wanted to share the first 10 minutes. I guess it was a FaceTime call, basically. And this was the first 10 minutes of a 50-minute conversation that got lost. I'm in my garage. This was a garage of my house. And I had to make it into another house, basically. English is not your first language, is it? Absolutely. This was the garage of my house.

Yes. And who's, give me shelter. Well, that's, yeah, that's good. That's a good one. The house is next door. This is a separate building. And there was a garage door. And now it's closed off.

And there's a kitchen there. and now it's a recording studio. So basically you're in a bunker. Right. Someone can live here. So you were well prepared for the pandemic. No, I'm not prepared at all. It's terrible. Today's a terrible day.

But you're wearing yellow. That's a very sunny color. Some days are better than others. I wake up some days and I'm like, there's no fucking hope. I miss just going to the store for nothing. And today's one of those days. But now that I'm talking to you, I feel better. How are you doing with it?

I'm, you know, I'm good. My husband baked bread today. Everyone's baking bread. I know, but it's the stuff of life. He made a jelly roll. Has he always baked bread? No. I was the bed breaker.

The bread I've got. I can't speak English either. Bread baker, but now I've been usurped. Huh. And it's not with a machine. It's like by scratch and you put it in a loaf pan. No, but see, look, if I'm honest, mine was with a machine it's like by scratch and you know if i'm honest mine was with the machine he's doing it by hand he's got but apparently you have to have a certain

temperature of hand naturally to be able to be a bread baker and i thought that was my job but it's no it's been so wait now i have another question was the uh bread baking machine a wedding gift bread baking machine, a wedding gift? You know, no. No, it wasn't. But it was a birthday gift. My first wedding anniversary, my husband gave me a vacuum cleaner and then I got a mix master. So there were certain – you know that they have that thing

where the first wedding anniversary is meant to be paper or something. I can't even remember what it was. I've been married so long I can't even remember what it was. But then I don't know at what point in human history they released another list and that list involved things like coffee grinders and microwaves and irons and sort of gone was the sense of you got to a gold and a diamond anniversary.

You got to the microwave anniversary. It's so less kind of romantic and timeless. Is that why you got divorced? Twice. What did you get up to? Did you get up to the microwave? I made it about, I really only made it about four years each marriage. I do not know that we made any of the milestones.

I was with each of them for about seven or eight years, married to them about three to four years, and both of them crapped out. I have no children, which is better. They crapped out. The marriages crapped. No, no, the marriages did. They, as in the marriages.

No, the first wife would have stayed with me. The second wife had had enough. So you crapped out. Come on. I crapped out once and then she crapped out. And here you are in the bunker in your yellow shirt. It's all good. And I'm dating a film director

and she's age appropriate and everything's okay. Right, great. Do you know Lynn Shelton? Do you know Lynn Shelton? Yes. That's who, she's's in the house she's in the house and you're in the bunker so it's clearly functional everything's working great did she send you into the bunker she said that has been australian actress are you kidding she's beside herself that i'm talking to you she loves you. Oh, well, you can disabuse her of that.

When did I meet you? I met you at Stephen Colbert when you iced me and walked right by me. I did not ice you. I was nervous. It's called stage fright. Come on. Come on. You walk right by me. You kind of do that stuff in your sleep. What? Walk onto a stage and talk?

Yes Yeah, I know, but I'm just being me You practice all day in your bunker That's right, I practice in my bunker I practice in my head I practice, yeah, I have a constant self-dialogue going on I have a theory, Marc Maron That you are everybody's inner voice Oh, well, that's very nice.

You know when we wake up in the morning? I'd like to believe that. We wake up in the morning to have a dream. It was kind of, I don't know if it was a nightmare or a dream, and it was, you know, it was sort of, there was slime on the walls or whatever the dream was. Yeah, sure. And you can't remember what was said to you,

and then you listen to your podcast and you go, that's what was in my head. That guy. That guy was in my head. I used to assume that. I used to assume that I was just speaking from the angry sort of inner voice of everybody. And then I realized that people were just sort of, they weren't laughing for the right reasons. They were kind of laughing because they were uncomfortable and they felt bad for me. Not because we all shared an inner voice. But I do think with the podcast, yeah, I think some

people relate to it. But like speaking of dreams, have you noticed a change in your dreams since this thing? Like have they become more specific? I had a very specific dream last night. Is that weird? It involved a lot of facial hair and marijuana. Oh, so I'm half of that dream. So here I am. I'm having a throwback. You're high and you're talking to me. It wasn't a dream. No, but I wasn't smoking. It was people were ingesting it through various different parts of their body that was totally inappropriate and unexpected. Weird. Yeah.

You didn't watch Sarah Silverman's video, did you? No. Did she put it under her armpits? No, she put it inside of her. She was on Instagram inserting a vaginal suppository of weed. Oh. Oh. Oh.

And what is the rating on this? No. No, I haven't. Wow. I should. I must. Clearly, I'll sleep better. It's not graphic. It was just, you know, she's...

So when you're actually asking me have my dreams changed, you're actually asking me have I had a vaginal marijuana suppository. I know. I mean, I was trying to put it together. You said people were ingesting weed in weird ways and I thought maybe you had been going through your Instagram and you saw Sarah Silvermanman maybe maybe I didn't I didn't realize it was just

too late maybe my dream last night I had to look up the name Phaedra this morning because of my dream did you wait and did you remember that at 11 a.m. or did you wake up thinking Phaedra no I woke up I'm like there I woke up and there was strips of information that were in the form of pictures that were sort of flipping and interchanging with each other. And for some reason, the heading was Phaedra. And I didn't even know what Phaedra was or who she was. She was a mythological character.

And I had to do a little research on Phaedra and I'm still not clear why my brain did that. And did it right. It might have something to do with, I wonder if that guy behind you ever played Phaedra. Do you think, he played Ned Kelly. He's been in, he looks great in drag. Well, yeah, from performance, I remember that.

He played Ned, yeah, Ned Kelly's Australian movie. Who directed that? Was it? Oh God, I I remember that. He played Ned Kelly's Australian movie. Who directed that? Oh, God, I should remember that. But Justin Curzel directed a version of it quite recently. It's the quintessential Australian story. He was sort of an outlaw hero, like a vigilante type. What was he? What was Ned Kelly? Well, he was someone, you know, I don't know if you've read the Peter Carey novel, The True History of the Kelly Gang. You know, he was someone who was completely marginalized and outside society and finally thought, fuck it, I'm going to fight back.

And so he's become a national hero. So it's interesting that we have a national hero is a so-called, quote, unquote, criminal. You know, it's quite interesting. We've had a lot of those. There's a lot of national heroes who start out as criminals. Oh, yes, here we are. And we have a president who's an actual criminal, but I don't know whose hero he is.

But Australia has sort of a tradition of strange people out in the desert, like cowboy-ish type people, no? Well, we're kind of mostly desert actually yeah i mean yeah so it's built on uh outlaw population wasn't it yeah we're we're well i mean colonial invasion notwithstanding i think we've been pretty positively built on immigration you know yeah but it's yeah we were a colonial outpost at one point and still seem to be clinging to that identity. What parts you grow up in? I grew up in Melbourne. Have you been to Australia? Yeah, a couple times. Yeah. I like Melbourne. I've had nice times there. It's a

pretty city. It seems manageable. Sydney is very beautiful. I was at Bondi Beach. I was in Australia very depressed shortly after my second wife left me. It was rough. And thank God for Luke Davies. Do you know Luke Davies? Yes. Yes. I had met him briefly through some other friend. And right when I got to Australia, I dropped my computer and it broke. And I was just stranded there, brokenhearted with a broken computer. And Luke Davies hooked me up with his Mac guy. So you went all the way to Australia to get your computer fixed. See? Yeah, see?

And it really worked out. And he told me where to go. And I think he took me down to Bondi Beach and stuff. And it was nice. It was nice. Yeah, the dolphins are back in Bondi now. See, this is the thing is we think we're very important as a species we humans but we leave bondi beach for you know all of three weeks and pods of dolphins i love it i love it the same here yeah the same

here with the yosemite yosemite national park the bears are back. They've just been waiting. Yeah. If we're humble, I think we could learn from this hideous pandemic. God damn it. Wouldn't that be amazing? Wouldn't it be amazing if that were true, what you're saying? If we were humble, we could learn. I think about it every day. Since he's brandishing the plastic bottle. Yes.

That's true. Don't worry. I do what I can. Don't worry. I do what I can. We do what we can. Don't worry. I do what I can. We do what we can. We do. No, but just the quiet, the air quality, the sense of calm, the lack of this, you know,

the momentum we're all in all the time. You know, I'm thrilled. I hate that there's a plague going on, but I'm completely relaxed because I realized that, you know, like I'm not doing anything and I'm okay with it, but I know that no one else is either. What an amazing feeling that is. No'm not doing anything and I'm okay with it. But I know that no one else is either. What an amazing feeling that is. No one is doing anything. So there's no reason to keep up.

I know. I know. We're very fortunate to be in the country. And so we went for a walk the other day. And we just kept walking and walking and walking. I thought of the Bronte sisters. It's like, you know, what I'm going to do today is I'm going to walk to the neighbouring house and that neighbouring house is 10 miles away.

You did? No, I didn't. I was being a Bronte. I was imagining. I was being romantic. I didn't walk for 10 miles. You know, I got on the treadmill and I maybe didn't do that long. But, you know, that sense that, you know,

you will make a journey to someone else's house and that is all you will do in the day. And you will get there and you will talk to them about. Right. So there you go. That was the 10 minutes or so of a 50-minute conversation. That was great. And I love talking to her. And it was that feeling, man.

It was that. When she told me she didn't have it, there was no recourse. And I love talking to her. And it was that feeling, man. It was that when she told me she didn't have it, there was no recourse. And I was upset. I was furious. And I was just sort of like, hey, you know, okay. Yeah, what can you do? That happens. And she was like, oh, I feel terrible.

I'm like, oh, it's all right. You know, but in my heart, I was like, God damn it. How did we? All right. Hey, I let it go. And I was respectful and I didn't snap. You know, it's a hard time and it's it's fucking Cate Blanchett and I'm not gonna fucking lose my shit so we did get a second

interview we had a little discussion about it we had a little discussion about what went down she is obviously in a lot of movies but she's uh right now she's in a um fx on hulu show streaming on fx on hulu mrs america about phyllis schlafly the monster i had a hard time watching i gotta be honest with you coming from where i come from mentally and ideologically but, we cover that too. This is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel

by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I just revealed how hopeless I am. It was a good moment. I think we handled it very well.

It was finally acted when you said, oh, no. And I pretended like I wasn't furious. I know. You did a really good job. But it just cut dead. It was like you just suddenly found out we're on our first date that I've got syphilis. It's like, okay, it's over. Yeah, that was it.

I had to pay the check. That's right. You did have to pay that check. I've been in analysis for two years, and I have never got to that place. I've got to that place with you in two and a half minutes. Well, why is it taking so long in analysis? Are you that confident? I don't know.

Maybe I should do my analysis on Zoom. It doesn't take very long for me to get to shame. You're hard on yourself? He says with a deep sigh. Are you hard on yourself, Kate? Are you? Am I hard on myself? I guess so.

Are you hard on yourself? on myself? I guess so. Are you hard on yourself? I used to be more so. I'm a little less so. I'm usually harder on myself in those moments where like what you were dealing with, where something's gone wrong out of your control. You wanted it to go better or you didn't do something that in retrospect, you're pretty sure would have made whatever you were doing work better, that kind of shit. Yeah. But you know, you know what it is.

It's, it's when it's, it's when you know, it's your fault. Yeah. Well, you know, it's good if you can see that.

Yeah. And it's also good. And it's also good if, if you don't assume that it's always your fault, because that's a whole other problem. Oh, is that one of the problems with one of your wives? How many wives? No, the problems I've had with partners

has always been I'm a difficult man with an anger problem, which has gotten better. Thank you. Right. And another beautiful... Go ahead. No, you go ahead.

No, I was just going to comment on your shirt. It's another... You must only wear lacoste i know it's no i barely ever wear them i barely ever wear them kate and the reason i'm wearing them just when i see you right the reason i'm wearing them it's gotten kind of hot here and if i wore a regular t-shirt i just i'm not feeling that it's still going to be a little hot and these are the only things that i have that look like this that aren't buttoned up that you know make it give me give me a little, it's cooler. That's all. I own three of them. There was a time where I own more of them because I thought at some point I could make them cool, which you can't, they're always going to be what they are, but I have them. I quite like them. Oh, you do? You were just doing that TC tugger thing. You said, is that what you, you know,

pulling your shirt out to make sure there's no, they don they don't crease no they're not things that don't crease yeah me too but uh oh but yeah so the wives yeah generally it's been a slow evolution to learning how not to be a uh an asshole okay and but so the way to not be an asshole is not to get married is that your solution i don't know at this point do podcasts so you actually don't have to i mean this must be quite a difficult proposition for you ordinarily so this is such a banal question ordinarily do you invite people into your man cave i mean is this a this is a complicated scenario for you or is it actually better for you that we're not in the same room?

No, no, I love being in the same room. I feel like it's better, though I'm doing okay with this form. But it's nice. You know, you're an actress. You're a person who likes people. You're across somebody. You can read somebody different. You have a feeling.

There's a different flow to the conversation because you have different signs that are being put forth. So this is a completely adverse situation to me, what I've been doing like this, but it's working okay. Have you been doing many of them? Yeah, we did a few. Or do you just go on a roll and just, have you done more than you've ever done before? No, no, there's a lot.

People come over here all the time to do this, and that's usually the only way I do it. But lately, since we've figured out a technology where the sound is okay, like the one thing about having people over is the sound is beautiful. I use good mics. But no, I've done, I did Liz Garbus, Rosie O'Donnell. I just did Joey Pantoliano.

You've had a good week. I did a lot of people, yeah. Do you know Joey Pantoliano? Not personally. You haven't worked with him? No. You know who he is though, right? Yes.

He gets on and he's not sure how to work his mic on his computer. So within three seconds, that guy in his voice goes, he says, fuck. And I thought, we can end this now. thought we could end this now but uh but you and your interview with me could just be static yeah well i mean it almost was it almost was but but you felt bad and i i appreciate that because it felt like we had a pretty good conversation and you were you were kind of on a groove is your son not there this time i think maybe we have a little more privacy this time. My dog's here. Fletcher's on the floor. But literally last time I kept seeing an elbow and your son was, I don't know what he was doing there, but he was right there.

I don't know. He's probably wanting permission to buy something. He always strokes my back when he wants to buy something. So what changed for you in the last few days since I've seen you? Do you have a computer going? Are you on a computer? Have I? Have I? Yes. No, I've seen you? Do you have a computer going? Are you on a computer? Have I? Yes.

No, I've learned how to work my mobile phone. Oh. What have I been doing? I've been contemplating vegetables. I've been growing herbs. I've been trying to get really basic, actually. Although we did have a bit of a meltdown in our house on Sunday. Oh, yeah? Because the kids are all homeschooled, and we're a bit of a meltdown in our house on Sunday. Oh, yeah?

I think because the kids are all homeschooled and we're a bit of a caravan. We always travel with work and so we're used to being in one another's company and we actually laugh and get on quite a lot. But I think it all struck us between 9 a.m. and 11.30 a.m. that we'd all been locked in the house together and hadn't seen another human being for seven weeks. And it was literally like we were in deep space and we couldn't get out of it. We couldn't get off the spaceship. And I was frightened that someone was going to eat someone.

Everybody became hyper aware of what was happening? Yeah. Yeah. But it happens. I mean, look, who'd want to be 18? Suddenly, you're confronted with the fact that your, your, your, your children think that you're so deeply annoying. You sort of think, well,

I'm not that bad. Am I? But anyway, it was pretty, it was, but we all had the realization at the same moment in time. Did everybody cry? I'm always crying.

No, but like, those are those family meltdowns where like, you know, everybody is just stripped bare to their pure insecurityurities why do you hate me so much I don't hate you no but it's that thing too you must I mean you must get this talk about anger when people say to you um why are you so angry yeah I'm not angry no I'm really you you really I'm not fucking angry right right right it was one of those right

one of those and so and then you end up everyone storms off and then you know because we all get on we sort of walk around the dining room see one another again and then you've sort of forgotten it yeah well that's anyway that's good because when you're really angry uh eventually that shit builds up and they don't forget it and they go away. Divorce. Yeah. But I mean, look, it's, I mean, this is a test that I had a friend who's, who's literally about two weeks before lockdown had moved in with their boyfriend. Oh my God. Oh my God. How are they doing? They're, they're, they're doing okay.

I saw her the other day on zoom and she had one of those. Yeah. Yeah. Everything's good. Really? That's really tough. It's really, it's a very unnatural. It's like, okay, we're going to go in deep space together. Yeah, but we're doing it. I mean, she Lynn's got a place where she can go, but she's staying here and we're relatively new together. We weren't definitely not living together. And, uh, it's not, it's not so much as challenging. It's just sort of a quick course on whether it's going to work or not. But also what would have taken maybe a couple of years to get comfortable with, you sort of got to just deal with it.

It's also because we don't know how long this is going to go on for. It's going to go on for a long time. Do you think? I don't know the echoes everyone's sort of like you know i feel i'm annoyed i'm going to go out but i mean everyone's going to get sick again and i don't know just everybody going on their gut and because that they they miss going out to buy ice cream or going to get their nails done that that's a reason to engage with everybody so i guess we'll find out it's a big fucking experiment, but in terms of going back to the theater and shit,

I don't know when that's going to happen. But I know, but that's the thing. I think everyone's craving. Of course. We're all getting sick of being little boxes in one another's screens. I think we're going to want to, I was talking to a friend the other day about,

you know, film festivals. And I think, you know, the blow up, there's, you know, all these amazing blow up screens that you can get. And you know, when you go to the supermarket

and you've got your little square and you stand in it politely because you don't want to get the person, you know, but if we did that in a socially distanced way, and then surely we could go back to the, I think so in the open air, the drive-in. That's right. Bring back the drive-in. I do think that people are getting tired of, I think everyone's doing a very noble job at attempting to create art and entertainment within the confines of what we have to deal with. But I've noticed recently that almost everything looks basically like an audition tape. Like no matter how good anyone's doing something in their box, it still has that weird vulnerability of an audition tape audition tape and you're slightly feeling i don't want to see that show yeah well you're kind of like well this is nice i'm glad that they're trying you know i know but it's it's it's when you use the word noble it's like that is the that is the

enemy of art isn't it nice try nice try almost yeah good job it's like when someone tells you you know your work is brave it's like oh yeah that's better than interesting oh yeah you would never get interesting no wouldn't wouldn't you just get that was incredible or if that sucked uh i've got a sense you know given that we've known one another for so long yeah yeah i know when i suck don't you know when i suck yeah i know yeah i know now. Yeah. I know when I suck. Don't you know when I suck? Yeah. Yeah. I know when you suck.

Do you know when you suck? No, I know when I suck. It's awful. But the worst thing is when you're sucking on stage. Yeah. And you've just got to keep going. Oh, when you can't get out of the sucking? Yeah.

It's hideous. It's really hideous. I remember I was in a show once. It was a two-hander and the other actor and I, we got on stage and once we got on, we didn't leave for an hour and a half. Right. And we were playing a matinee and so you could hear everyone's hearing aids going, and there were two hearing aids up.

And there's this pause in like we say about three or four rapid fire lines and then we suddenly realise this disaster has happened and we look at one another and in the silence I heard this woman with a hearing aid saying, oh, darling, I can't act. And you think, what do I do with that? And I looked at the other actor and he looked at me and we just kind of kept going with that knowledge.

It was awful. It's really awful. And this is the thing is you make a movie and you don't know that anyone's even seen it until they stop you in the supermarket or your friend tells you that you've got a lot of rotten tomatoes or red tomatoes. I don't know what the tomatoes are. When was the last time you thought you were terrible in a movie? Oh, I think I'm pretty terrible. Most of the time. My default setting is, you know, when someone says to me, oh, my God, I saw you in such

and such. Yeah. It's always and sometimes it actually comes out of my mouth. The first thing I've got to say is, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. So, yeah. But, I mean, it's the bits that don't work, I think, that keep you going. The things that you don't have control over, though, with the movies,

you don't really have control over what they're going to use or how they're going to cut it or anything else. No. And, I mean, it's interesting you know in times when i've um had a producerial role in in a film or television is that sometimes you can't always be objective about stuff and so you have to really let that process go and editing is an absolute art yeah oh for sure which i totally respect yeah they make the whole movie i've i've i've shot i haven't done that many movies but i've shot things where i'm like there's no way they're

going to even be able to put that shit together there's no way that how does that even they do how does that become a movie yeah and they do it's kind of fucking amazing you know do you work in bits do you work in bits when you said it comes how they're going to put it together what because you're thinking of all the bits that you didn't that that didn't work. Well, no, like I did a, I did a little movie, this David Bowie, weird David Bowie bio flick that he was supposed to open at Tribeca. And it was just shot on such a low budget. So quickly, one or two takes were running around the, uh, the cinematographers 80 years old, but he's sort of a genius.

And, uh, and I just didn't know how they were going to make a movie out of what we shot. They were, and then, and then I saw it and I'm like, holy shit, they got to make a movie out of what we shot. And then I saw it and I'm like, holy shit, they got a movie. Yeah. Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, but it's the energy. Sometimes you can overthink things. I mean, before I made a film, I just thought, oh, well, that's relatively easy.

You just keep going until it's perfect. But it's this whole thing, you know, sometimes when you've got too much time and, it's, you've got to go with the wabi-sabi idea of things that there's always got to be a flaw in it. Yeah. Well, how long does it take to shoot a Hobbit movie? Like a year? Oh, I remember when I, for me, it was super quick. Oh, yeah.

There's not too many chicks in the Tolkien universe. Although I loved it so much. I did say to Peter and Fran that they were doing a banquet scene with a whole lot of, I think it was a whole lot of dwarves. Yeah. And I said, look, I would love, I've always wanted to play the bearded lady. So could I be your hairy wife woman when they pan past

the banquet table of dwarves? hairy wife woman in the, in the, when they pan past the, the, the, the banquet table of dwarves. And I'll just be, you know, and of course I, I couldn't because the timing shifted, but it takes them for ever.

But for me, a Galadriel, I sort of was, it was like three weeks. Did you, when you were a kid, were you into that kind of stuff? Like fantasy?

I was more, my sister was a huge Tolkien fantasy ofkien fantasy of my brother i came to it late oh really when i sort of realized what i'd sort of missed so i came in as a as a demi-adult but i i was much more into the bad fiction you pick up in the supermarket really horror i was into girl detective series oh yeah through and Trixie Belden. That was my whole world. You know, I was in Basil Rathbone in the Sherlock Holmes movies.

That was my, they were my peeps. Yeah. People with big noses and big problems. Solving problems, solving cases. Solving problems, yeah. Getting to the bottom of it. Yeah, Trixie Belden didn't have many murders. And then I, you know, I sort of gravitated. That's when I think I gravitated more into the horror genre and then and then what

happened when you got to high school did you shift to music or something more exciting boys anything a horror is pretty exciting I yeah I guess I'm not okay you're right really so when you say you're not a fantasy guy you're not horror guy and then i i think i probably then went into you know i went into to the long tarkovsky kind of i kind of i kind of skipped there's all these steel magnolias beaches all of those films great weepies i kind of skipped that and i'm really sad about it i feel i've missed some profound developmental stage. Really? To not lock into sort of melodramatic, fun movies? Crying movies that are overly acted and overly produced?

Is that what you call them? Is that the genre? No, I don't know. I mean, I ended up seeing all those movies. I don't know how. Steel Magnolias, Moonstruck. There was a big bunch of movies. Moonstruck? See, good that's good nicholas cage but you're in one of like i love that movie you did with sam raimi i i oh the gift i love sam raimi that movie is so fucking

good man that that scene with that budget of a shoestring really that was yeah there was one sequence in that and this is i mean, this is Sam's kind of ability to just galvanise everybody and used to working on a low budget. There's one sequence where we had, they were going to, the producer was going to shut the theme down. So we had one take to this sequence that went through three rooms. Someone had to trip over and had to fall in blood and Keanu had to slam the door in my face,

which he's so good at doing and, um, happens to me all the time. And we did it in one take. Yeah. You know, so it's, it was one of those pretty special experiences. And then he went off and made Spider-Man.

But when you have control, how much control did you have over this? Um, the, the Shalafly, uh, project. You said it right. I, i well you taught me last time

i can make up for my mistakes last remember when you were beating on me uh the beginning of our last conversation i took some tell the people at home that i took some notes i never beat it on when you were when you were you're telling me i was working in a basement, it was brutal. So I get it. You know, you had to take a couple of shots. It's a running gag in the series that no one can say her name, which is actually, you know, when I went through the oodles, the reams of interviews that she gave, I think maybe out of 150 interviews,

there were two people who said her name correctly, but Schlafly, there's quite a few interesting names. There's Bella Abzug. Yes. And, and you know, Jill, Jill Ruckelshaus, who was a Republican feminist, you know, like it's, there's quite a few big names and Schlafly is one of them, but how much control did I have? Yeah. I mean, you were a producer, right? Strange question to launch in with. What have you been launching?

We've been talking 25 minutes. Oh, have we? Have you been recording this? No. Oh, no. No one's going to listen to this shit. But Kate, why is that a weird question? I mean, you've answered every other question about this show.

There's literally a book of interviews you've done about Mrs. America. I'm just trying to come out of it. Did I have enough control? i didn't no no how much control well i was i was um i came in early um uh darby waller who's the uh creator of the show and stacy sure approached me um because john john langrath who's fantastic at f, had been very passionate about making the series. So I got in at the ground floor and was interested because it was about obviously second-wave feminism and the drive to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment, but it wasn't from the usual suspect perspective.

And I knew precious little about Phyllis Schlafly or even how to say her name. And so it was quite an extraordinary journey for me. But I wanted to be part of a series where it wasn't a biopic about any particular character. God knows I've made enough of them. It was really about how to reverse engineer how we've got here. No i get that yeah yeah i find myself um being you know sort of immersed in politics and and somewhat of a liberal myself that i i can't i i even though you played her with the sensitivity i can't stand that fucking woman

and it's very hard for me to watch it. But how do you feel Mark? But I mean, how much, how much did you, were you aware of her? I was, I was kind of aware. I didn't know the whole story,

but I knew enough. Like I was okay in my life with the amount I knew about Phyllis Schlafly. But did you know, were you aware of her, um, the reach of her mailing list and how she gave it to Reagan? No, no, I didn't know that stuff. I didn't know that the sort of like the building of that infrastructure of conservative propaganda.

No, I did not. planks of the Republican Party as we know it now and certainly as it evolved in the 80s were really so many of those songs that they were singing from were from her hymn book. And you can say that's a dubious achievement, but it is interesting that she didn't get a lot of public credit. So you're happy that Phyllis Schlafly is finally getting the credit she deserves on both sides of the aisle. She's so polarizing. Yeah. And even from the grave, she's polarizing. And we live in such polarized times. And so much of the inequality that we're struggling with now came out of the 70s.

Yeah. It wasn't just inequality between the sexes. It's between the, you know, the enormous wealth divide, the haves and have-nots and the people who were so-called natural-born Americans and immigrants. You know, there's such a trench between people at the moment. And you think I, you know I would think about second wave feminism in the 70s and it's all, you know, it's an awakening when, in fact, by the mid-70s to late 70s it was starting to be a shutting down.

And I think a lot of that came out of the civil rights movement and people hadn't really processed that, what there is to process about making all Americans equal. I don't know. I mean, surely that should have been a no-brainer. But it's, you know, the fact it's not in the Constitution. It's crazy. That was such a shock to me.

Well, it's a racist, sexist, capitalistic world here. world here and it's weird that the what i found interesting about watching the the mrs america is that you know the the the lines that were drawn around this whole commie hippie thing were really to protect you know the structure of capitalism more than anything else and and it seems that you know some of that is filtering into uh phyllis schlafly and her and her movement was to to maintain the current paradigm to not but it was it was not it was not essentially the same as protecting capitalism as much as it was protecting patriarchy so i don't well sure that too but i mean there were there were a lot of big businesses including including the insurance lobbies that's that stood to lose a lot of money by making women profoundly equal to men. Right.

Because the rate of insurance that women had was entirely different. And, you know, there's a whole group of people who truly believe that Phyllis Schlafly was, you know, supported by the insurance lobby. So, you know, it's a period well worth investigating. And of course, Mrs. America is never going to answer all of those questions. It raises more questions, and hopefully people will go and find out about it. Well, that's interesting. Did you poke around in that rabbit hole of thought around her being

financed by the insurance lobby? Yeah. I mean, the series doesn't, there's a couple of lines about it, but the series doesn't deal with it directly. There's too many. I think that we probably would have gone deeper into that, that, that idea,

if it had been just about Phyllis, but because there's so many stories to tell, I mean, you know, that the, the, the journey of Shirley Chisholm for one and her running for president and jill ruckels house you know as i said that was a republican feminist that to me was such a a revelation in a

way you know producerially i wanted to be part of getting the series going but i wanted to also scaffold all those other stories being told well it's also interesting just watching one of the episodes where you had to deal with the racism of your sort of Southern contingent and how you kind of diplomatically threw your friend under the bus for the greater good in that moment and were able to somehow transcend as the character Phyllis Schlafly, the idea of racism, given that your particular agenda was being served, which is certainly relevant now. Well, I mean, I think what you see in that moment is that that's politics. Yes.

You know, and there was an interview that Phyllis gave with Larry King in the 80s, and she was saying, you know, it's a bit like being a surgeon. You know, if you can't stand the sight of blood, you need to get out of the game. You're in the wrong game. And, you know, if you can't stand criticism or, you know, people reviling you, then you've got no place in politics. She was really, I think, a natural political animal. Sure.

You know, there's so much about, you know, someone said to me ages ago that the crisis is back in the global financial crisis, that it about, you know, someone said to me ages ago that the crisis is back in the global financial crisis, that it actually, of course, there was an economic crisis, but the biggest problem facing America was it had a crisis of governance. And I think that in a way that's, the series doesn't deal with it directly, but partially it does because it's the drive

to keep the Constitution a responsive, living document. And it's somewhere along the line the Constitution has become a biblical document that cannot and shall not be changed and that everyone reads the Constitution in a literal way. You know, the inequalities we're facing now, one has to think, well, if you did put it into the Constitution back in the 70s, when the notion of equality was seen as being a no-brainer, it wasn't a party

political issue, it was just something that had to happen as part of, you know, American evolution, that you wonder, would we be in a different place right now? If the constitution had responded to what was a kind of a universal drive for for equality and not literal equality to say men are the same right as women but that your representational equality well yeah the language is powerful don't you think sure sure yeah it should be sort of an evolving document but now we have a president that could give two shits about the constitution and you know three shits and we have three shit we have a president that could give two shits about the Constitution. Come on, three shits.

We have a complete, we're over here living in a failed state currently, not knowing whether or not we're going to tip into full-on authoritarianism come November. So the constitutional talk is, you know, it's almost romantic at this point. I know, but you know what? None of us have just arrived here. No, I know. That's what is so interesting for me. Phyllis Schlafly helped us get here. Yeah, but it's been happening for quite a while, the erosion. California just doesn't drop off into the sea.

It's a gradual process of erosion. Sure. You know, I mean, there's so many wonderful things. I don't mean that in terms of California's got specific problems. I think they're part of the solution, actually. But it's, yeah, I think it's important to kind of work out that the current administration has been allowed to exist. And I think, I don't know,

I think it's really important to vote in a democracy. Yeah, for sure. Are you aware when you're playing a villain, generally? Generally? Is that a leading question? I know. Well, look, I mean, look, I don't want to tell an audience what to think

um and particularly in in in this you know it's um i was interested in reaching a broad audience which is why the series part of the reason i was excited that the series began at the point that it did it didn't begin with you know the people that so many people revere it began with someone who was um was considered by many a villain and it's very easy to say that person's evil that person's bad um you know when you don't agree with what they've um what they've done and what they've said as i don't um but i wanted to understand how someone could think like that. And so hopefully, you know, the series has enabled people to ask those questions. Right. There is a type of ideological thought that people believe and they cannot see them

in the way that you see them, which is wrong. And I think that's true. I think that belief is a very, very powerful and strange thing. And it seems like when we were talking before that she was rooted primarily in the intellectual and active pursuit of the arms race. I mean, that was her. That was the fence, the ground zero of who she was intellectually and as a political motivator was like, you know, we've got to not get blown up by Russia. Yes. And so it was it was literally feeling that that women were going to be put in the trenches with men, not at all acknowledging that the world the world had changed post Vietnam, you know know, and there shouldn't be another draft. But there was bubbles then, too, I guess.

It didn't require a sort of media bubble, but there was definitely bubbles of thought that they were all living in. And it seemed like that with Vietnam, that was the first time that it was really, you know, a line was drawn between, you know, what sacrifice was and what was a right war or a good war. drawn between, you know, what sacrifice was and what was a right war or a good war. And there were people in Schlafly's circle who were just sort of like, well, you know, these hippies are whiny babies and we shouldn't have lost that war. Yeah, no, yeah, exactly. It's, it's the whole thing about, you know, that you, you've got to look after yourself. You, you, if you, if you're asking the government to government to help you, then there's something wrong with you. And it's that kind of line in the American kind of identity.

It's about being exceptional. And we all have the ability and the right to be exceptional. That's right. And if you're not cutting it, it's your problem. Yeah, but now what is cutting it now there's so many exceptionally awful people that have such disdain for people who are truly exceptional that the whole bar is being moved into like i don't even know what exceptional looks like to these fucking people i know it's really it's really i mean i come from australia

and so anyone who's an artist or an actor or a writer or you can't even call yourself an artist. It's a dirty word, a pretentious dirty word, but that you're considered to be an elitist. And you think, well, hang on, what about these people who own sort of 95% of the wealth in Australia? Wouldn't they be called the elite? And do any of them work in the arts?

And that somehow public intellectuals have become, you know, the notion of thought or deep thought or trying to think longer than tomorrow is somehow seen as being elite. When did having an education become an elite act? Here's the weird thing about this country is by calling, you know, you're a comedian, don't talk politics. Leave this country is by calling you know what you're a comedian don't talk politics leave that to to who exactly you know we're people who the fuck talks politics yeah our president doesn't know how to talk politics who's supposed to talk politics but the weird thing is is that they blame us for being some sort of con people like we're getting

away with something and and our president is the biggest grifter that ever lived but they don't there's this cognitive dissonance between you know where they're being driven to put their anger and what reality is and it's a real trick but and phyllis schlafly helped create those tricks that's that's all and i think there you go that's it yeah you said now okay let's go back to this thing you said because when you say when i brought up the villain thing that you don't want to tell an audience what to think that it seemed that we could track that moment of realizing the power of that uh when you did uh the first that

first theater production did in oleana that that there was something that an experience you had with the audience's reaction on both sides to that play that really made you realize the power of not presenting something in a way where you're telling people how to think. Yeah. I mean, that was my first job out of drama school. I was understudying at the Sydney Theatre Company. And then the director saw me and put me in Olliana. Yeah. That play hit an audience at the time when the notions of political correctness was just such a violent hot button for people. Yeah. And I was spoiled.

Like I came off every night and went into the foyer and people were getting divorced and there were one night there was a brawl in the bar. Wow. You know, between men and women and tables were pushed over there was a brawl in the bar, you know, between men and women and tables are pushed over. It was so exciting. And I thought, this is theatre? I said, this is for me. It was, I mean, the real theatre actually took place in the bar at the end of the night. And I got a taste for blood in a way that I thought,

this is a blood sport. Yeah. And, you know, it's sometimes you go to the theatre just to laugh or, you know, to be entertained or to be moved. But when you actually have, you know, you're in something that just hits people at the right moment and in the right way, it means that they talk, it's affected them. For better or for worse.

They don't need to like it. They don't need to like you, but it's given them something worth thinking about or feeling. I think that is the best thing about art or what we do as performers is that if you can change the way people think about something or provoke them to think about something in a different way, you can, you literally change their life because they,

their perception is altered forever and it, they add it to the tools in their head. And that's the best blowing minds is the best thing we can hope to do. Yeah. Yes. Right. I know. But,

but that's the thing is this, you just ask the questions. It's i don't have the the answers to to any of this what's your relationship with uh shakespeare um is it good do you have a good good relationship with shakespeare um well i did a bit when i was at drama school um but i think my kind of pivotal relationship with shakespeare it's in it has to be it's like you can't read it you have to get up and move around and say it. It's a living, breathing.

Yeah. Plays are meant to be performed. That's why they're plays. They're not works of literature. They're plays. So you have to get up and move it. So I, one of the first things we did when we took over the Sydney Theatre Company is we did a, God, was it seven hours or was it nine hours?

I don't know. Either way, it's too long. No, it was fabulous. And so people would come in at lunchtime and then they would go through into the evening and we did The War of the Roses. So I played Richard II and I played Anne at the end of the night.

Yeah. And that was wild. That was really wild. Benedict Andrews, who's an amazing, amazing theater director. When everyone died, we spurted blood on one another and then blue flour. I mean, it sounds like a baking competition,

but it wasn't. This is the thing with theater, is when you describe it, it sounds so like, what? Yeah, but it's the simplicity of the illusion. It was muscular. So you took over the theater? were what you were director of that theater yeah my husband and i um uh ran it it's it's um yeah it's a it's a theater where we got you know we both got our first big break so we've kind of got a long uh history with it And do you still run it? No, no, no. We were there for about 10 years.

Oh, wow. It's still going. It's such a great theatre. But, of course, with the Australian arts industry, quite, well, relatively recently, we used to have an arts minister, but then it got folded into roads and rail. Yeah, I don't understand. The arts isn't acknowledged as an industry.

So they're really struggling at the moment. And people always look at Australia and say it punches above its weight creatively. It's novelists and it's playwrights and it's theater designers. It's actors. It's cinematographers. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it breaks my heart.

You wonder how does art persist without support? photographers you know it's yeah yeah anyway it breaks my heart i mean it's sort of you wonder how does how does art persist without support you know well this is the thing i think it always relies on the fact that people will do it for nothing you know because it's a drive in people you know i'm sure you'd sit in your garage you know and and do it anyway you've got to drive to to to do it but it's it's when a lot of other people make money from the industry, it's like why should you be considered greedy as an artist if you want to get a little piece of that pie so that you can get some more money to make something else?

Because that's the thing. You know, we're always justifying ourselves and having to explain to people why it's important. But what are people going to do with their spare cash? You know, they want to listen to music. They want to go out and go into the theater. They want to go and see a film. They want to gather.

This is what we said is, you know, they don't just go to the theater district. They go to the restaurants in the theater district. They have cabs to the theater district. You know, it has a huge multiplier effect. Anyway, don't get me started so like you did two todd haynes movies and i've i've interviewed not enough i need to do two more well how was that like what was your experience in did you know that how that bob dylan movie

was supposed to work when you got into it explain it to me you know how did he explain it to you when someone calls you and says i want you to play bob dylan and well and it's todd you you that you lean into that conversation that is just insane yeah so yeah i mean so yeah it was it was great and but i'm when he when he was talking about splitting his persona i just thought it was so exciting and also so liberating i mean when do you get when you get an offer like that but when he told you that richard gear would be one of them did you think like hmm i wonder how that's gonna work no i didn't did you i'm still thinking that yeah no it no, it was out there. But, you know, he came with a whole mood board. And one of the great joys of my life, strangely, I was playing Queen Elizabeth at the time that I was preparing for it.

And I watched all of the outtakes in the Penny Baker documentary. uptakes from the Penny Baker documentary. Oh, there's a section in the documentary where he's sitting in the back of the cab in London with John Lennon and they're talking and it's not a very long exchange and they're just going, you know, it's quite witty. The outtakes, Bob Dylan is so off his noodle and John Lennon is getting increasingly bored until he finally just starts taking the piss out of him and none of that for some reason made into the documentary

but it was so fascinating to to watch dylan to slide into this sort of drug induced coma but when you got into that role that was that was the period it was from that documentary and did you like were you able to understand anything about bob dylan that you might not have before he was so incredible with the press yeah they just did not you know i i i kept thinking about those those um extraordinary um hollywood foreign press conferences that that one one does and you so you see the same journalists over and over and it's quite formal. There's a table and it has a nice tablecloth

and sometimes a little bunch of flowers. And it's always in one of those nondescript hotel kind of conference rooms and the chairs are all laid out and they're all sitting there and they're all in suits. And he was just riffing. But he was riffing in a way that was, it was like a spider just spitting little web and then you know flicking cigarette you know poetic cigarette butts out and they didn't know

they didn't know what was happening he wasn't trying to win a golden globe he wasn't no unlike me he was just trying to fuck with the press so he did it really well so you played elizabeth twice right the same i'm so sorry yes i did you i mean you're able to do all these different things played elizabeth no not in public i um you you could do a lot in that garage i know i can do a number of things yeah but like okay but let's stick with the Hanes. Cause that the other movie, Carol was very different movie and it was really stunning movie. Slightly less hairy. I mean, what does he enable you to do that other directors don't?

What is the relationship with him? He's so, he's so fluid, you know, and responsive. And the thing is he, he in completely envelops you in, in the atmosphere that he's creating so he's and you know which i really respond to he sort of he um swaddled you in all of this um swaddles that's a terrible word oh i can't i use that word um no but he he really surrounds him in the in all of the images and the visual references. And also he gives you a soundscape, like the amount of playlists

that he will give you. Oh, really? Yeah. So you feel like your understanding of what you're in is operating on a whole different level, you know. And so I just really respond to that because sometimes the connections you make to a story or a character, you know, it's nonlinear. It's like out of one strange space continuum into another and you don't, you can't.

That's why I find it so hard to talk about. It's because it happens in a moment between people and you're not quite sure why it works, but it has. Right. Or it hasn't in my case. And then the editors can fix it. I do. I don't. You know, I'm not buying this weird kind of self-flagellation. My therapist buys it. Well, yeah.

Well, that's what you're paying them to do. I pay quite a lot of money to buy it. Yeah. Yeah. You're paying them to listen to you repeat yourself over and over again. You know, yeah. But this has been thank you for this session. How long have we done? Surely you're going to say thank you very much and just

hang up that's that's a couple a couple minutes in a couple minutes now it's gonna we're gonna have an easier dismount it'll be a nicer farewell this time yeah okay um but but in terms of you playing things you can it seemingly can do anything from any period uh you know do you approach everything the same way, that these are just people basically in relationship with other people? It's just a conversation, isn't it? Right. It depends who you're talking to.

So if you're talking to Taika Waititi, you sort of talk slightly more differently than if you're talking to Terrence Malick or Claire Denis. It just depends. Terrence Malick or Claire Denis or, you know, like it's those, it just depends. Terrence Malick, is that a difficult conversation? It's often a full of yes, hmm, hmm. You often just stand in the presence of. He's so, I mean, he's such a wonderful filmmaker so let's just talk about two

more things the like playing a blanche in that production of streetcar now very german pronunciation streetcar streetcar streetcar you're like a german theater critic but i mean when you were given that opportunity to play that character uh were you just uh thrilled and you were or were you were you overwhelmed at the challenge of it well that was actually in our first year running the theater company and um and we were having we were having um uh lunch with live allman and talking about working together. And my husband said, you know, thinking, what play can we do?

We could do this, we could do this. And he said, you know what you both should do? You should do Streetcar. And Liv's, her face lit up in that incredible way that only Liv Ullman's face can light up. And then it was just, I had to do it. I just realized something when you said that that like there is this interesting thing about the nature of theater where everybody who is involved

with it has a relationship with these with these plays that are done over and over again and continue to be done over and over again and no one ever thinks that you know that they can't be done again they think they have to be done again and they're going to be different every time you do them. That's an amazing thing. I never really thought of that. It's very, very, very ancient. We went to Delphi with the kids a few years ago and there's something about those amphitheaters and you stand there and you stand at Epidaurus and you stand at the sweet spot on the stage and you can whisper. And, you know, thousands of people sit in these auditoriums, open auditoriums, and there's something shamanistic about it, you know, that we do want to hear those stories.

You know, and I'm really curious about what stories people are going to want to gravitate to, not from the now, but stories from 200, 300 years to gravitate to not from the now but stories from two three hundred years ago that speak to the now you know there's something profound in archetypes i think no for sure what do you think of these like but what do you think of the shortening of stories this challenge of technology like this new what is this new platform quibbly or quimby or quibby i mean doesn't isn't that diminishing the the the depth and beauty of storytelling or am I being an old... Yeah, but if you think about Dickens, Dickens was published in short installments

in newspapers. So it's like the chapterization of story. It doesn't always have to be... I'm not threatened by that at all. Have you done? Did you do something for them? Yes. Well, I'm not, so, no, I'd love to. Do you know someone there? No, but I'm sure that- In fact, I've got a project.

No, but I- I'm sure you've got somebody who can make the call. No, no, I've got, I don't know, I just feel like these things are, it's what you were saying before about, you know,

everyone's sitting at home and trying to make art by themselves you know this there's something about theater that's made in front of people for people and it changes night by night it's a it is it's an organism and i think it's you know it's it's a live experience i think we're all going to crave that and quibi can still exist i think you're right right now but like the with blanche you're heading into blanche and you and there are some precedents set for Blanche. But how did you begin to even open up to her?

Was it just the words? Did you think about Vivian Leigh or anybody else doing it? Oh, of course. When you play those, they're not just great roles, they're great plays. And they're stories that carry with them kind of huge cultural baggage. And, you know, I'd seen that film many, many times. But I'm working with Liv Ullman and it was an amazing, Joel Edgerton was Stanley

and it was such a great cast. And Liv wants to see it. She doesn't want there to be a second that is not truly felt. So you couldn't even edge your way in. You just had to sort of, you had to belly flop into the play. Did you learn anything about yourself doing her? Did I learn anything about yourself doing her? Did I learn anything about myself doing her? You know, that's not a question I ever ask myself, possibly.

That's more something I talk to my analyst about. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Possibly. I mean, when you play those big roles, when you play head of gobbler or blanche or medea or electro or any of those roles you you you would get expanded by the experience so you you have greater capacity i think afterwards i think so because like i swear to god i mean i just don't

know how it doesn't affect you to a certain degree oh my hair fell out my hair fell out that was we were meant we were meant to go to broadway um we were at bam and we were meant to go to broadway with it and my hair was falling out and i just i just had to go home um what what do you why did your hair fall it was just the stress of it it was a very very intense production i was doing that alopecia but it was just like i no no i know i know you were stressed out and you like you know you can only be blanched for so long yeah it's not a happy place because the point I was gonna make though is I saw I saw Al Pacino do American Buffalo did you in Boston when I was in college and I think that the time between when he did that and he did Scarface was a little too close because I felt that he was still kind

of talking with a slight Cuban accent. So I guess he's my hero. He's my hero. Yeah. He and Jenna Rollins, I think, you know, and Lucy Ball. Why Pacino? What is it about him? He just, he, he is so bold. And, you know, he really, he pushes the envelope all the time. But then, you know, I watched Heat again the other night. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. It's so sexy and so present and so alive. And, you know, Dog Day Afternoon.

I mean, it's just, he is just. Isn't it interesting? The young Pacino versus the old Pacino. It's really wild to see like emotionally who, you know, what his, his range has become. And I think what is,

what is, you know, what he was when he was younger, he was so wide open and so sensitive and so engaged and visceral. And then he kind of went through some other, I guess it's really a matter of the roles. Cause when I watched him do Jack Kevorkian i was like oh my god he can still go pretty fucking deep man you know he can still really do it but it's also i mean i mean i love i loved his

work in the irishman i'm you know i loved all of them and and the movie generally but you know he is so um present you know i i want to be on the other end of that gaze well why can't you be get into it okay you get in you better do it do it soon um so oh lucille ball jenna rollins of course isn't she inspired are you doing something about lucy or am i making that up i don't know it's been around for a long time i'm you know i think she's extraordinary what is it about her that you love so much what what isn't there not to love? No, I know, I know. But like specifically, what do you respond to? I mean, she was funny, but like, you know,

if you can say that it's because, you know, Pacino is so present, which is very succinct. What about Lucy? I think she's so, you know, someone who has the level of talent that she has, it could be a monologue, but you watch her perform and she is an absolute in an absolute dance with the people that she's working with and she elevates them they elevate her and you can tell that they're making that moment together you know sometimes sometimes people like her you you

think the spotlights on her and and everyone else around her fades away but she brings everyone else up with her and i think that you can just tell there's a profound generosity not only towards her fellow actors but towards the audience i just i think i really i just so admire that apart from her she was very good at at at sharing a stage because she did she and she was so great at comedic takes you know a lot of her stuff was silent or facial or beats beats of timing that she would let someone else have them you know yeah it's kind of fascinating so okay so now i think we did it did we now did you press record oh no oh shit i've got to come back what do you. No, we're going to do a weekly thing now. We're just going to check in.

I'll be your UK correspondent. That'd be great. There's not much going on here, though. The Oscars, before I go, are they prominently displayed somewhere, or do you just hide them? There it is. Is that what you're referring to? The owl? No, the Oscars.

The Oscars. The Academy Awards. The Oscars. The Academy Awards. The Academy Awards. It's in a box somewhere. Okay. Enough said. Good.

Good for you. I just wanted to make sure that you were hiding that as well. Yes. In that you don't want to be reminded that you won the highest honor. Of my greatness. What are you going to do today now what happens today tonight yeah whatever i'm going to bed oh what time is it now it's 10 o'clock oh um wow that's early that's really telling isn't it no no no what else but you know it's not telling we're we're locked in that fucking house.

What are you supposed to do? Look how locked in the fucking house I am. Look at my roots. Oh, it's everyone's got. We're all going to be who we are soon. You are going to be going to be able to tell who's actually stayed indoors. Oh, that's true. That's true. Well, thank you for talking. Thank you. Thank you. And I hope we interface face-to-face. Again, we will.

Yeah, we will. Definitely. All right. Thanks. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye.

How good was that? It was nice, right? God, she's fucking amazing. What an exciting conversation that was for me. I don't know what to expect, but I just she's so great. And she's great in everything, despite what she thinks of herself.

And now to honor Little Richard, some raw, dirty rock and roll guitar playing. Rest in peace, little Richard. Wop-bop-a-loo-mop. Blop-bam-boom. Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon Thank you. Boomer lives We'll see you next time. What do you need with Uber Eats? Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream?

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