WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1125 - Kenya Barris

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

Kenya Barris retreated from the abusive situation in his childhood home by listening to party records and reading comic books. Those early influences shaped his understanding of who he is and prompted the creation of Black-ish years later. Kenya talks with Marc about how much he learned from comedians like Patrice O’Neal and Dave Chappelle, how his childhood friendship with Tyra Banks led to his first big success in show business, and how an encounter with Jeffrey Katzenberg and a Ferrari was a spark for his new Netflix show #blackAF. This episode is sponsored by Patreon, HBO Max, Space Force on Netflix, and SimpliSafe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. Today on the show, I talk to Kenya Barris.

He's the creator of Black-ish and the writer of Girls Trip as well. And he's also got this new comedy series on Netflix called Black AF. That's fuck, right? Right? See, I know how to. I'm not great with those. I am not good. I always have to look up the.

What do you call those when it's just letters? Someone gave me a O-D-A-T. I didn't know what that was. One day at a time. Had to look it up. Didn't know if it was something dirty or not. Okay. So I'll talk to Kenya Barris in a minute or two.

It's going to be tricky. It's going to be tricky, folks. My brother left yesterday, and I'm going solo and I guess this is the time I go solo. This is what happens. I guess it'll be two weeks tomorrow and now I'm by myself and I'm quarantined. You know, it's weird because I don't... I'm mad. I guess I'm mad, sure. I'm mad because someone I love died. But I've been around long enough to know that

I've seen many people I know die for one reason or another. Sometimes for no reason at all. It's always fucking horrible. And I just don't know what's going to happen. I really don't know what's going to happen in my mind. I mean, I'm getting out. I'm getting onto the mountain.

I'm getting out into the air. I'm getting hiking. I'm talking to people all the time. I got a headache right now. I'm having a hard time breathing because i'm holding in my fucking feelings most of the time or stuffing i don't even know if i'm stuffing them it's just like the fuck am i supposed to do i guess i'm doing what i'm supposed to be doing but i'm afraid you know it's this one day at a time shit this one minute at a time shit

but I tell you man I am amazed at people just being human just people just old school shit people are sending cards like like old school cards in the mail, condolence cards. My neighbors, who I don't really know that well, have come over. Guy across the street came over a few days ago. He cooked some chicken. He offered me some chicken. Flowers are coming. Food is coming still.

Ice cream came. Emails, texts. But just people showing up. I just, I'm scared of my mind. I got to figure out a way. I will figure out a way. I don't want to be a downer, man. I don't want to bring everyone down.

I'm still way in the fucking woods and why wouldn't i be i'm just trying to frame the thoughts into good things i'm trying to feel the feelings but holy fuck you guys jesus christ christ now i just gotta look at fucking monkey i was prepared for monkey to die i was not prepared for my girlfriend to die i've been preparing for monkey to fucking die for months but now like if he dies i mean jesus christ that'll just be like, all right, there. Well, there you go. Thank God the grief portal is open. I'll just toss him through it too. Fuck. But I'll be honest with you. The concern I share with the people I talk to on the phone is just like, I'm worried about, you know, where my brain goes.

And, you know, the advice I've gotten is you stay in touch with people. Do what you got to do to take care of yourself. You know, because it doesn't take much for me to get bleak and wonder, you know, what it's all worth, you know? I will try to embrace whatever the hell Lynn saw in me and what you people seem to see in me. God damn it, I hope I get funny again. I've been kind of funny, I guess, guess on the phone just trying to stay sane i watched the in-laws the other night again with my brother

been cooking you know i'm it's it's gonna be a long haul and i'm gonna have to hang on and i hope i'm not draining you guys And I hope everybody who's going through grief is, is well supported as I am. I guess we're all kind of traumatized, but, uh, but yeah, I'm in touch with people and it's weird.

I don't think about drinking. I don't think about using drugs. I don't think, I think a little bit about nicotine, you know, you know you know the uh onanism when does that start when do i start jerking off like a monkey to feel better huh when does that happen it's happening right now i'm sorry i'm sorry but you guys you should know what i'm doing right god damn you guys my heart is busted wide open motherfucker kenya barris is on the show today he's got a new comedy series, Black AF, Black as Fuck, is now streaming on Netflix.

We did it over the video before the sadness. And it was pretty good. I never know when people know anything about me or give a shit. But I'm learning, man. So this is me and Kenya Barris coming right up. Just give me a sec. All right, give me a sec. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply so dude nice to meet you you too man such a such a such a such a huge fan you're oh that's nice of you you're patrice o'neill is like a class could be taught on it. I'm writing a movie and it reminds me that Patrice was going to be, I think that next level of comic.

You know what I'm saying? I think that he was already there for, for, he was a comics comic. You know what I'm saying? He was already there, but he was going to be like, you know,

honestly, I was, I've been looking at the Jordan doc, which I'm in love with. Like they could just pump it into my arm. Yeah. Michael Jordan, you could look at his rookie year, his game, his rookie year, the way he played, and put that game into the NBA right now, it'd be the best game in the NBA.

Like the game has not progressed past where he was at. You know what I'm saying? Right. Yeah, yeah. Derivative and something, even though LeBron's amazing and Kobe's amazing, the way Michael Jordan played the game has not been played better than that. Richard Pryor, to me, the way Richard Pryor, what he did, it's been derivative. Comedy's been derivative in some aspects since then. You know what I'm saying? I think that's true, yeah.

And I kind of feel like the first, that new voice that was starting to feel different for me honestly patrice was a was as as his powers were going to grow i think that his voice was going to be i mean i'm sorry bigger than chapelle bigger than i mean and chapelle is my god you know i'm saying he's my friend but he's also like a god you know bigger than chapelle bigger than than seinfeld bigger than you know i think the patrice on those voice was that and you're you're a maron yeah Like he said something that I have quoted and put in so many different ways. It's so, but like little things he said the way he thought, you know what I'm saying?

He was, he was an auto didact. He wasn't somebody who fucking, you know, was super, you know, formerly educated, but he was brilliant.

He talked about, um, and it sticks out to me. He talked about, um, the notion that as, as horrible as, as the Holocaust was right. And it was out to me, he talked about the notion that as horrible as the Holocaust was, right? And it was a horrible thing, but there was a face. You know what I'm saying? He was like, you know, if you're a Nazi, we're coming knocking on your door and pull you out your house at 100

years old. You know what I'm saying? There's a face that you can put to that evil. And he was like, you know, our face is just white. You know what I'm saying? We don't really have. That conceit has informed so many conversations and so much of what I did. Like the notion that there's never been a prosecutable case of slavery. Right. The greatest human atrocity, you cannot argue it. I mean, unless you go back to biblical times, which we don't really know. But the greatest human of our recorded, of record and record are recorded times. You know what I'm saying? One of the human atrocities ever. And there's never been a prosecutable case. It's not illegal. You know what I'm saying? And there's never been a

true apology. You know what I'm saying? Clinton is like a bullshit version of it. There's never been a true apology. So the notion that you take this people for 400 years and then say, you know, after a certain time, all right, it's over. You know what I'm saying? Go be free. And now expect them to just live in that same society and not be fucked up.

You know what I'm saying? Is really, really, really interesting. And like, and not really give a face other than, you know what I'm saying? Our,

it's, it's, and then, and then this is the country that it happened in. Their relatives live around you yes the generations of from the people that did that are down the street down the street like the nazis they all crawled away they were busted they were war crimes it was fucking horrible but they were germans but but this is sort of like yeah that was the old way of commerce

and now we don't need you but enjoy that's exactly right so it's just that's crazy i think it's interesting um and you know you guys you know betree's touched on stuff like that but i feel like it's just it's an interesting sort of like that informs and not to sort of harp you know i'm saying like i've in the show the show i did for netflix every episode was kind of because of slavery then like a type of something after it because i do really in my heart you know i'm saying it goes back to that thing that you guys are talking you and patrice were talking about if they say it takes two to three generations for something to normalize right so like for i think a generation is 12 years right probably 15 years so the notion that for us to see two guys kissing took about two

generations, two and a half, you know what I'm saying? Us to not be like, Whoa, you know, call the police. Like for us to sort of be like,

you know, it's a little bit more normalized than it was 30 years ago. You know what I'm saying? Oh, sure. Yeah. You got, you know,

it's, it's like, uh, it's, you sort of adapt to, to, to, it's,

it's about tolerance. So 400 years, if 30 years takes, what does it take for a for a community to forget 400 years of something you know i'm saying like we were in that was that was 40 generations or 35 generations you know i'm saying if it takes so the idea of that is it's just amazing and it informs a lot of i think when i see, you know, people in my, in my community doing certain things that I'm like, Oh, please don't do that. I'm like, I then think back, well, they're doing pretty good considering like what, what's an example. I don't know. Like when I see, um, you know,

rims, a rimmed out car bumping, you know what I'm saying? In a low income neighborhood in the middle of the day, you know, I'm like, oh, because in my mind, I'm like, with the perception we're putting out there, but then I really quickly want to explain to people that's okay. The idea of the societal norms that that might be brushing up against, there are things and reasons why that's happening that from a social level, if we actually did some digging in, there are reasons that that is actually a really big step forward for us. And I'm not looking for excuses or things like that, but I feel like you take a group and you fucking do the most heinous of things to them for 400 years and then put them, let them loose into that same group with the same

people who did it. And in less than a hundred, you know, in a hundred years, they are the president of that country. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'll take that. I'll take those, those batting averages and say that the, you know, there's some, some things that societally we might want to catch up on or people might want to catch up with.

So we're not going to completely ride the normality wave yeah i i just watched a movie i got to interview jeffrey right this week and i watched a new movie that's on netflix uh a day and uh it's called a day and oh yeah the story about oakland yeah and uh that you know one of the through lines of that was that as slaves, we were taught to survive, but not to thrive. Kind of to thrive. Yeah. And like I never I, you know, I don't I don't know what that life is like, but I don't know that I ever heard it sort of framed like that. framed like that and it's a pretty powerful disturbing movie when i when i see that stuff i feel bad just because you know my life is small i live in a house with a couple of cats i go do stand-up and i talk to people you know i don't you know black or white it's still small and and i don't uh whenever i see stuff like that that depicts that kind of life i'm like you know what what the fucking world am i living in right so when i see your show the black as fuck show and i see that you know your

character struggling with you know with racial identity at the level that you operate at that that's a whole other thing that you know that's a little more that's a little closer to me like i can relate to the criticisms you have of white people and your relationship with the Jewish kid more than I can understand what the fuck is going on. I think that's interesting because my friend, she has this saying

that she says, she's like, black people only get to tell four stories. She was like, white people get so many stories. We walked out of Unorthodox, we were like, why do people get so many stories? Like we walked out of like unorthodox. We were like, what a beautiful movie. You know what I'm saying? What a beautiful niche specialized movie. You know, and I feel like as much as I have heard great things about,

and I love those kinds of movies and I'm sure I'm going to love Jeffrey's movie. I do feel like we get, you know, that and boys in the hood and men's society. And then we get, you know, a slave biopic, you know what I'm saying? And then we get, you know, that and Boys in the Hood and Men in Society. Then we get, you know, a slave biopic. You know what I'm saying? Then we get, you know, I'm black and single and I can't find a man. And then we might get some sort of, you know, historical document, you know, some sort of historical movie. But I feel like I want to get a 1917. You know what I'm saying?

I want to get, you know, an unorthodox, a punch drunk love. You know what I'm saying? I feel like we have some other things to talk about of course yeah it's a and also oddly that you know culturally it's a the whole culture was driven by stories and and you only and you only get these four in the world of commerce yes that's exactly right the world of commerce so that was when we did black af we i really wanted to one. I really wanted to – one, I just really wanted to do something personal. And you're so funny, man.

You never did any comedy? No, man. I mean I did a rogue comedy. I'm not an actor at all, and I would never act in anything else other than that particular role. But you never did stand-up? I tried stand-up when I was in college, you know what I'm saying, a handful of times. Yeah, I did a handful of times, and I was actually decent. That's how I got into writing, you know what I'm saying a handful of times yeah i did a handful of times and i was actually decent that's how i got into writing you know i'm saying but i i knew that i did not have the gift

of presentation you know i'm saying yeah yeah jokes but i could not chris tucker came in i was in atlanta going to school and chris tucker came in and he bumped all the like open micers right of course because he's working out and for an hour and a half he got up and talked about talked about nothing and i was like i will never be able to do that right was it like at the punchline earthquakes comedy uh uh i think it was called oh yeah earthquake i want to interview earthquake but getting back to what you're saying i forgot to bring it up with about patrice like that interview to me like the people that lock into that thing it's like it's almost like some sort of uh you know like a bible it's like it's like there are certain people that register

exactly because i you know i knew him from around and you know he always busted my balls but that meant he loved you and you know i always respected him but you know we kind of tucked away up there it's serious you know in a side, we were both on other shows. We were guesting and he just happened to be up there. And we just locked in. And I think what you're talking about is he had a fully formed philosophy of life that he pulled out of the sky. That, you know, like it's based on whatever wisdom he got from whoever he got it. like it's based on whatever wisdom he got from whoever he got it,

but it's, it was definitely this fully formed kind of point of view and philosophy that involved animals. It involved men and women. The thing that he did that I really respected that I really feel like, you know, I think that Dave is in, you know, is the greatest thing living.

And I think that like, you know, they would be Michael Jordan and, and, you know, and LeBron James in terms of, you know, who they are, whatever. But I think the thing that I got from Patrice is he was able to form those things that you're talking about, which and do something that I think is the hardest to do, give context to his thoughts. Right. Yeah. He took the time to do

it. And also I think intellectually they were harder to sell than what Dave does usually. And also I think that Patrice honestly gave zero fucks and that, and that, you know, his deep contempt for I don't think it's specifically just white people, but just the way the system worked, you know, he really wanted to tear shit down. Whereas I think Dave is a little more diplomatic and dave dave in a different way dave i don't think gives has about three fucks left to give you know whereas patrice had zero i think dave is also an academic you know i'm saying and and dave you know understands and looks behind things and gets you know i think i think that patrice was a

little bit more excuse my my thing he was a little bit more of like a you know in my community i'd like preach was a little bit more of a nigga you know i'm saying like definitely but not like patrice was like you know i i think it's he was different you know i'm saying patrice was two two houses away from pimping if it that's right if it all went to shit he had another plan you know i'm saying yeah we got a comic do you know keith robinson yeah he he was actually a pimping. If it all went to shit, he had another plan. We got a comic. Do you know Keith Robinson? Yeah. He was actually a failed pimp. Those are the best stories. I love

the day when you have to give up on pimping. And you're just like, it's just not for me. I'm not good. He just didn't have the the... He was too sensitive. That is a fucking fantastic my last day of pimping like the day you give up pimping like there's a funny story talk to keith

and why you gave it up like what was that last reason what was the thing that he was just like, you know what? I've seen it now. I've had it. I've had it with you. You're all on your own. No, he was trafficking for me. So you went to, where'd you grow up? You didn't grow up in Atlanta, though. No, no.

I grew up between Inglewood and Pacoima. Pacoima's a little hood in the valley, and Inglewood's a little suburban hood in South, South Los Angeles. Yeah. And that your family's there. They came from there. No, my dad came from Omaha, Nebraska and moved out here. And my mom, New York via parents in West Indies, New York. And then grew up, she grew up in Santa Barbara. That's how they meet. My mom was like one of the only black girls in santa barbara and one

earner earner or other black girl but wanted to meet real black guys so they would sneak out the house and drive to la my dad was like a hood dude um from east east east la and he was like you know a year or two older than my mom he was like in the streets my mom loved it and she'd go out and get you know in trouble with my dad and then drive back to santa barbara and then she got pregnant at 16 for my dad and my mom my grandmother put her you know told her she had to go live her life and she had my my sister at 17. oh wow and your dad was like uh he was like from nebraska he was from you know but he grew up like like in the same neighborhood as malcolm x you know i'm saying like oh he's like that's why i'm from omaha nebraska too he grew up in the same neighborhood as malcolm x he would see black max older than him but he would see he caught him big red he would see him in this you

know he was older than him when he was young um it's a lot of transplants actually from there you know i'm saying that that place is very sort of has a interesting history in itself the nebraska history black history of nebraska yeah it's really interesting i have you know my dad used to my dad just passed a couple months ago but he used to try to have a family reunion and you would hear you know knowing malcolm x comes from like a really it has a lot of like layered things to it and you know those two people coming together my dad was a part of the nation of islam he's a muslim my mom grew up jehovah witness so like those two people raising me like we I had no holidays nothing but fucking church clothes well there's that

there's definitely a certain amount of discipline on both sides of that yes my mom my dad was so like my dad was like a bad Muslim because he's supposed to hold these papers all the time and instead he would just buy him and put him in the garage and after he sold him because he didn't want to go and do it but he wouldn't eat pork and he would tell my them and put them in the garage and that's where he sold them because he didn't want to go out and do it but he wouldn't eat pork and he would tell my mom if she's going to cook pork she had to have a whole separate set of pots for my dad's food

it was a very interesting sort of you know that's like being a Jew, being an Orthodox Jew with the kosher you know and so you grew up just living in Los Angeles at that time yeah you know and so you grew up like just living in in los angeles at that time yeah and what was it you know you have one sister i have one sister and three brothers yeah

uh three brothers older um well one of them passed is my little brother and two older what was uh how did you end up you know being compelled to to sort of pursue a life in comedy or show business or like did you did you like back then i'm trying to figure out i don't know what was going on when you were growing up did you go to comedy shows did you engage in shit like that i was comedy like saturday night live was my babysitter um i got a hold of my dad used to call him party records i got a hold of like the red fox box records i got a hold of like those early richard pryor records you know i'm saying um craps the craps record the blacksmith record yeah when he was talking about you know um he told his woman he was was you know fucking her

friend and she got mad because she was fucking her too you know i'm saying just like things like i yeah yeah and i started like realizing like irony and you know i'm saying i and i would sort of like those records kind of would like you know i was my you know my family my dad was abusive you know i'm saying and uh was he yeah he was abusive and my mom just a really strong lady but like you know had a lot of kids kind of put up with it um they were he beat you up All the kids? No, he was, you know, my older, I was so young. My older brother, brothers and sisters kinda got like, you know, some shoving things. It was really taken out on my mom, you know what I'm saying?

My dad was a good guy, but he, you know, had some dark days, and I think he honed later on in his life, you know, in a lot of ways. But, you know, they, my mom and he had interesting, like he loved my mom, but like in that scary kind of love way, it was like, you know, like, and he convinced my mom, they had broke up one time or separated one time. And he convinced my mom to like, could you just have a talk with me? And he's like, I've really gotten into church. You know what I'm saying? He's like, and he was like saying, went away from,

you know, Islam. And he's like, really got in church. My mom was like, hmm. And he showed her a Bible. And she got in the car with him. And he was like, you drive. And she was like, what? And he had cut out the pages of the Bible and had a gun in it. And like literally drove, made her drive around. And like he convinced her, you know what I'm saying, to take him back.

But like little stories like that that I would hear. Romantic stories. Romantic, sweet things um but like we were my brother who you know is to this day one of my heroes funniest dude ever like when you come out of stuff like that you look for things to sort of like take you out of it and comedy was a big big big version of that those albums i remember the button down mine for me that um you know by my heart you're saying was just like i started liking things that were smart you know i'm saying just like, I started liking things that were smart. You know what I'm saying?

I really felt like I liked things that were smart. They felt like there was a voice to them. You know, like you could tell a new heart joke. You could tell a prior joke. You could tell it. Right. And I started liking that really early on. And so I knew I wanted to do something with a voice.

I didn't think I knew it was a voice, but I knew I wanted people to be able to hear what I had to say. Well, I think you had the same reaction I did to stand up being, you know, I didn't grow up in an abusive environment, but I was definitely, it was an emotionally kind of draining environment. But I always felt that, you know, you watch a comic or you listen to a comic, there's party that thinks that like they've got it. They understand shit. You know, they, you know, you watch a comic or you listen to a comic. There's party that thinks that like they've got it.

They understand shit. You know, they you know what I mean? They've got they've got it wrapped up. You know, they because they could they could say things in a certain way and just blow your mind and make you look at things entirely differently and feel better. Yeah. And I feel like that's, you know, it's even in your I look at listen to your stuff, like the idea of being. Comedy is under attack right now, and it really scares me because, because comics are not just my heroes. They're important for the matriculation and the maturation of society. Yeah. Democracy. They're a good lubricant. Yes. And what they do is they are

the people who take society in and they take it through their filter and metabolize it and what they put back out they put something back out in a palatable enough way that makes us think and provokes thought that subsequently can change society yeah what's your fear like right now around that the voices it's so hard to have like you have you know you need the 10 000 hours you know i'm saying to To put in before you can really actually like you look at prior and he was, you know, trying to find himself for a long time. You know what I'm saying?

You look at most comics and you're like, look at their early stuff. You know, they're trying to find stuff. Dave actually seemed like he found us up really early, but, um, I remember him when he was a kid,

but I was in New York when he came, when he showed up and when he was a teenager, and it was, well, well, he has, he showed up and when he was a teenager and it was solid and he's well well he has he he definitely loved being on stage you know what i mean and he loved the you know like that's the other thing between him and patrice is like i think dave you know he really is charming and he really loves to you'll be loved up there you know he loves what he does yeah and but like i could see in the last special because i was watching him you know watching how really loves to be loved up there. You know, he loves what he does.

Yeah. And, but like I could see in the last special, cause I was watching him, you know, watching how he was working stuff is that he did this thing where he'd say something that he knew would be provocative and he would kind of like laughing himself and then run into the back. He did it several times.

Like he, it was almost sort of like, you know, I'm going to do this, but you know, I know it's going to be weird. And then I'm sort of like, you know, I'm going to do this, but you know, I know it's going to be weird. And then I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to like, I'm going to buffer it. Whereas, you know, Patrice really wanted to blow brains out, you know, but, uh, but the point was that Dave early on, yeah, he was fully, you know,

he did this thing with the hat. He did that. Like he did this character thing, the difference between the ghetto dude and the guy. It was just a matter of him putting the bill of the hat. He did two characters by moving the bill of the hat. And it was great, man. I remember when I sat him down. It was funny because I haven't been able to talk to him on this show. Oh, wow.

He won't do it. I think he's pretty private around some things and he's i don't know i don't know you know but i remember like he was smoking a lot of weed and he was getting fucked up and i saw it and you know and i was you know i was fucked up but i was trying to get sober and shit i remember i sat him down i just gave him this like this big lecture about not getting fucked up and throwing away his life on drugs and being one of those guys and i and i brought it up to him years later i said do you remember when i did that i taught because i was fucked up when i was talking and i said i said to him do you remember when i did that he goes yeah man i went home and read

the bible you know it's interesting because i in the last you know five or six years my life you know seven years maybe my life has just totally changed i was a working writer you know i'm saying who sold pilots you know and made a good it made a good career made a good living blackish happened and all of a sudden it just went you know it kind of took off in terms of things like that and so i started like meeting my heroes, you know what I'm saying? And then beyond meeting my heroes, actually knowing my heroes, you know, getting to know my heroes. And it was, you know, we're like, Dave was one of my heroes, you know, and Dave was, you know, I would sort of like, okay, be cool. You're in the same place with him. Just be cool, man. Just

act like a normal person. Hey, what's up, Dave? What's going on, bro? Like, act normal. It's hard. But he, over the years, has become so sort of like, it's hard to not be normal around him because he's just so cool. And I had like the biggest sort of like mind-blowing moment. I went to Toronto for the Laugh Festival a couple years ago. They were giving me some award or whatever. And Dave did a concert. I mean, him and a stool, stool right and it was him and john mayer was like backing up and

he let me come on stage with him and wanda and i sat at a table and it was 27 27 and 30 000 people in a round and just dave and i was wanda and i were back on a stool on the stage and i got to see him like a guy who knew how to fucking work a yo-yo and work the audience with nothing but a stool you know i'm saying and it was yeah so interesting because the night before i'm a kevin hart fan i saw kevin who's a rock comedy rock star do yeah a totally different show it had pyrotechnics and this one sure and it just was like seeing two different you know people at the top of their career do something but dave the way that he you know the things you know the hitting the self with the mic it's just like the things that he sort of has become proprietary signature

things of him i felt like i'm in the middle of something special and i don't know that concert i mean where he's at in his career right now you know know what I'm saying? It's, it's. Yeah. And so how do you think that affects like the idea of like, you think that comedy, we were talking about the 10,000 hours and about the comedic voices. Is this about the self-censorship element of, of comedy right now? Absolutely. And we don't have, we don't have the science that we used to have. You know what I'm saying? Art has always happened in salons. You I'm saying there were writers salons and you know artists salons And you know I'm saying and those guys would say you know what we're gonna be cubists and that became the period Or these guys would say we're gonna write like this and that became the period and and they had wealthy contributors that would sort of

Protect them so that they could still like you know do their art now The wealthy contributors are brands. You know what I'm saying? Who have people and stockholders and things that they have to answer to. So if you're trying to come up and you have a voice and you still want to take care of yourself, you have to watch what you're saying because your career could be over. You know what I'm saying? In an instant, you're trying to formulate your thought and your voice. It could be over. And i'm saying in an incident you're trying to formulate your thought and your voice it could be over and i feel like that's that hurts society well it's tricky

you know also that you know that everything is so fragmented so you know a big voice to how many people are they gonna is anyone gonna know him like i find that all the time there's so much shit out there i mean you know chapeappelle has risen to this mythic level for a lot of different reasons. And Louis was sort of the king of comedy for a while. But then it sort of breaks apart. You know what I mean? I've known Kevin for years, but millions of people go to see him. But he doesn't seem to hold the same place as Chappelle. He holds this other place. Like you say, he's a rock star.

It's almost like bordering on motivational speaking. No, seriously, it is. It's like going to a TED Talk with needle drops in some aspect. So that's so weird to me that you were kind of like, because like I saw Dave on the one day I see him, I was hanging out with him a few years ago at the Oddball Festival. And yeah, he is sort of laid back and he's always sort of thoughtful. And, you know, he, he's not, he is not that intimidating, I guess, once you get to know him, but you were kind of a nerdy writer guy, you would say. 100%. I mean, I was, I was literally, um,

my who I am, you know what I'm saying? Like take away that, you know, like I want to, you know, dress in sweatsuits. I've changed up. Like I'm, I'm a kid who had asthma, who read, you know what I'm saying? Like take away that, you know, like I want to, you know, dress in sweatsuits. I've changed up. Like I'm, I'm a kid who had asthma, who read, you know, ton of comic books, who read, you know, Sedaris. What comics? All Marvel. I was a huge, all the, the whole X-Men thing. I, you know, there was a comic that I tried to get caught. Power Pack. It was about these kids that were like this family of kids who like an alien came down and he was dying. He gave them each one of his abilities and, they kind of like melt kind of melded into like the the mutant world of the x-men when when that whole when the x-men were all the outbranches were the best with

the movies that you wish fox could have done right because they were by far the better way better than the avengers so this is when you were a kid were, you were sort of like a quiet kid or you were like just hold up with comic books and, and Bob Newhart records. I was a, I was a kid who was very close to his mom, um, who, um, you know, my brothers were in the streets and my mom was determined to not let that happen with me. I, you know, my mom, like, you know, was working two jobs. I remember she saved up and got me world book encyclopedias and was like read that and i'm like what she was like that the

whole thing and like so i started like reading the encyclopedia um and you know like i saw you know our reading was like you know for me a really really big thing um i grew up in a neighborhood you couldn't just go outside necessarily um without was that bad wasn't that it was that bad it was you know it was fine i would go so but you could also the more time you spent outside the more time you were going to be become a part of the outside become a part of the outside i like that done that in their own way so my mom was determined and my sister too um was determined to sort of you you know, get me into other things. And it worked?

It did work. It did work. I didn't think it would, but it did. And were your brothers protective of it as well? No. Nah, they were doing their thing. You know what I'm saying? Like, they were dudes. And, you know, then they got caught up with girls and drugs and jail and stuff like that.

Not that they didn't love me, but they were in their life. My sister was really like my mom and my mom was very, very supportive. So, you know, my grandmother, I was raised by like three generations of women. And your father like split or was there? He was there. He was definitely divorced. But like I knew my dad, I would spend summers there, things like that. But my dad also was on his own thing.

You know what I'm saying? He was trying to find himself. Just a guy. He wasn't empty or absent from my life, but he was not. He and my mom had such a tumultuous sort of... My mom shot my dad in front of me. You know what I'm saying? Really? tumultuous sort of, yeah, my mom shot my dad in front of me. You know what I'm saying? Like, it had such a tumultuous sort of relationship that I made a choice when I was a kid.

And the choice was undoubtedly my mom's side. And so whenever I'd have to be around my dad, I'm like, I'm not going to forget. You know, my dad broke my mom's jaw while my mom was pregnant with me. My mom had to drink, and it was the 70s, so she had to drink 70s protein shakes through a straw with her mouth wired. They didn't know if I was going to make it or not. You know what I'm saying? So you would hear these stories as you were coming up, like my mom has a little thing here,

and you'd hear how it happened. And so I made a choice, and that choice was my mom. And my mom was very, very, very much so intent on all her kids going to college. Even my brothers who got in trouble went to USC, and my sister went to USC. She was like, this was the whole point of the civil rights movement was that they fought so that we were not going to college was not a choice for us and i think we first generation that that was an obligation but how long like how old were you when When he was like out of the house. Young. He got out when I was five or six. They were going through a divorce when my mom shot him.

I think I was like seven or eight. I'm saying when that happened. Where'd she shoot him? She shot him in the stomach. Oh, my God. You know, she was she would kill me for saying this. Of course, I'm sure. This is who my mom.

Black moms and Jewish moms are the same thing. I would say both like believe in like disciplining through guilt. So my mom, I did an article at the New Yorker a few years ago. I told the story when my mom, my dad broke into our house. Right. And I,

when my mom saw him like, you know, and she saw her, the noise or whatever. And my mom had a gun and she was, you know go home Pat go home and my dad was like what are you gonna do shoot me and I saw my mom kind of close her eyes and turn her head yeah and I tell the story that my mom pulled the trigger until I have to I heard click so she let off a lot of shots she's like I didn't shoot him six times

I only shot him four oh yeah I'm like, mom, okay. I'm like, this is my story. I mean, you can't tell me the fucking bullet count for my fucking drama. Yeah. So, you know, but yeah, it was, it was something. And he survived. He survived. Yeah, he survived.

He big time survived. My dad was, I, I, I, I to this day believe that we were getting an autopsy. And luckily we ordered one so we could not go back. I think my dad died from Corona. He died of acute respiratory failure a couple months ago. And it like came out of nowhere. But Corona was not announced yet. You know what I'm saying?

But now after it got announced, I'm like, oh my God, this was all the signs. Like clotting, you know, got on a ventilator, couldn't talk. You know what I'm saying? It hit him quickly and he was just gone. He was in LA? He was, he lived in, yeah, basically he lived in Apple Valley. Well, they say, well, they say it was here a lot earlier than we think. I think I, I really, I'm waiting for the autopsy results now to get redone.

I really would not be surprised at all if it was. Just for your own peace of mind? I would, yeah, for my own peace of mind, because I didn't get a chance to say goodbye um we had renewed our relationship and actually found a really good place and i got a chance to see him before he passed but i didn't think he was going to pass because he was he went to the hospital and nothing was theoretically wrong with him and then he died so where'd you go to college you went to college in atlanta went to college at clark atlanta university um you tried and you were studying what um radio television film um I knew I wanted to do something a lot of that came from you know knowing that um

I wanted to be a doctor at first and then I took one semester of chemistry and I never felt stupider like I think I got like a three percent% on a test. And I never came close to that. So hard. So hard. So I was like, I just don't grasp this. I couldn't either. I couldn't fucking grasp algebra. But chemistry was like, what the fuck?

Might as well have been talking another language. So I realized that it was probably not the path for me. And my best friend was Tyra, Tyra Banks. And like, she had blown up already when we were in high school. And I- Oh, you knew her from that when you were a kid? We knew for each other since we were babies.

This is real. And I, so I felt like she, because she was such a big model at that time, when I was entering college, in a lot of ways I felt like I wanted to go work with her or work for her. So that was part of my sort of like, I felt like she was so close to me, that would be a part of my world.

And it was. Yeah, we did model together. Yeah. So you, so you went for the full four years, you got a degree in show business. Stayed in Atlanta for a quick second. I wanted to get home. I had to get back to LA. What were you doing in Atlanta? You stayed there for like a year after college or something? Like maybe six months. I worked in music publishing and I worked, you know, tried to work at CNN and like they're like sports, you know, the sports division, you know what I'm saying?

Like producing sports. And I just was like, I was like, why am I, I'm from LA. I'm from Hollywood. Why would I not go back home? So I got back home as quickly as I could and got a job working for this councilman named Nate Holden as his press deputy. And he was like always in trouble. But I was always talking to old ladies about their trash not getting picked up and wearing like Jose Bank suits to work and just like hating my life. and tyra helped me get a internship or a public

job at p uh roger d cowan was the name of the publicity of the firm at the time and i was like my entree into entree into show business and i left there and um got on as a pa and this lady named felicia henderson i got on as a pa then i went to keenan ivy wayne's show as like one of my friends was like in a writing program. Then we kind of were writing stuff for Keenan and then got on as which show, uh, the Keenan, I'd be Wayne late night comedy show.

My friend was a, got on as a writer. Then I was helping him with stuff. And then we left, I left there and I got on as a writer's assistant. This lady, Felicia Henderson, who's a big writer.

Now I gave me my real break. Um, and she helped me get in the Paramount Writers Training Program through this guy, Steve Stark. And just, you know, things started happening from, you know, here and there. And I went the PA route up, you know, and that's how I got started. Yeah. It's so funny that Keenan, like, it's so weird.

When I was a doorman at the comedy store in, like, the late 80s, and, you know, no one remembers Keenan was a he was a pretty good stand-up was he i don't remember yeah i remember damon as a stand-up well damon was amazing like i used to watch him all the time he was he was another one that would just go out there oh yeah he has that famous joke uh you know about uh once you get famous like uh they come and ask you now damon now that you've made it in ho, what do you think about the racism? And he said, he looked at the camera and goes, if it is racism, I didn't see none. It was such a joke ahead of its time.

The notion of them giving you, buying your slavery back, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, right yeah right right right yeah no he was he was great i believe that they are the most brilliant comedic family in history i really no kidding yeah hyperbolic statement but that is what i believe i believe that kenan is a comedic genius damon is a genius marlin's a genius something whatever it was in there they grew up jehovah witness too and I think there's something about that that is very interesting. I heard Jay-Z and Prince and just some other – I don't know if that's true. But I think there's something about a sort of oppressive, hard religious upbringing.

You know what I'm saying? Well, isn't it Jehovah's Witnesses where you can't really dance and shit? Can't have birthdays, no Christmas. You can go to dances within. You're not supposed to be – they call it worldly. Youmas you can go to dances within you're not supposed to be they call it worldly you're not supposed to be worldly you're not supposed to up the world you're supposed to keep within your you know your group because you know worldly things will infect you and you know so like you know the idea of sort of socializing is in terms of what the world is shunned upon and all right all you want to do is like do what you're not supposed to do so So I think people who came out of that, Michael Jackson, like it causes this sort of like explosion once you hit society because you have so much inside of you.

So that's my philosophy on it. But you didn't grow up with that strict situation. I did not. My mom and because my mom and dad were both separate things, we didn't have to go to either. The kids didn't have to choose you know i'm saying my mom went to the hall and sometime i'll go with her my dad would go to moss and sometimes you know right participate in that so when okay so you do the pa route but what what how do you come up because did you create america's next top model with tyra yeah yeah we um we were tyra and i were developing a um a couple movies

at the time and they were getting in development hell and reality was kind of at its like sort of like nascent sort of birthplace and we were like i was like you know you're a big bottle we should do something with which you do other than us trying to sort of like make a star and so we started really kind of the original thing we're titled for top model was going to be like brains beauty and brawn like we were going to sort of like have them models because we were kind of copying off a survivor like on an island who were pretty but they also have to use like strength and their their smarts to like get out of different situations and we that sort of went away and we started talking about like which should be the you know sarah started telling me that there actually

is a technique to modeling and there's secret things i had never heard this and we i was like this is sort of like how making the band is how there's a part of something and so we end up getting ken mott who was one of the creators of making the band he was the the guy who sort of like took and helped shape this shape top model into a show and that was it was a huge show was it kind of like uh it it set some sort of precedent it was a you know because that model of show became applied to any number of shows yes right yes and it was it was very derivative and everybody but me got rich off of that show um i got enough money to say no to some things you know i'm saying for me yeah i might as well Yes, and it was very derivative, and everybody but me got rich off of that show.

I got enough money to say no to some things. You know what I'm saying? For me, I might as well have been rich, but they got rich, rich. I don't fuck with Kid Mock to this day because I feel like he fucked me, you know what I'm saying, out of that show. Yeah, how did you get fucked? I was very green, you know what I'm saying? But obviously I had, you know, I had taste. And that's something I think that, you know, Rashida says, Rashida Jones says her taste is her talent.

And I kind of feel like I still, I'm just going to steal that. So that's sort of my talent. I had good taste and I knew it was hot or not. And so I knew when things weren't right. And Ken, the very first episode, had turned the first episode into the network without showing me or Tyra. And I lost my shit. And I, you know, cause I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm at that time. I'm fresh. I'm, I'm young. I'm like not that long from being in the streets. You know what I'm saying? I came in as this little Asian dude and I was ready to beat his ass. And I told him in his

office, I was like, I'm gonna fuck you up. Like, you know, and I handled it completely wrong, but no, I know completely wrong, but it was, I felt so, you know, assaulted by it. And like, I, I basically quit, you know what I'm saying? I basically was like, I don't want to be a part of it. And I took a buyout and you know what I'm saying? I, and I let them sort of strong army into into what i um you know what i should have been um what i i should have been i should have gotten a lot more from it but i you know it was it was the most amazing thing i had it started my career i'm saying it gave me the power to say no in a way that i can't you know i'm saying really yeah so how did you settle on you know creating comedy after that seems like a big

jump um i always wanted to do comedy um you know i got into my first real you know job was on a drama i wrote a drama for four seasons drama with this lady felicia henderson um this drama soul food oh yeah yeah um so that was you were just in the room. You were in the writer's room. I was in the writer's room. It was between there and Canada. They taped it in Canada so I'd go up there for taping. So that was the first time in a writer's room for a job. Well I kind of was

in the writer's room with writers a little bit around McKinnon writers but not really. It really was that was my first like in a writer's room paid. I had done a writer's room on BET but that was the first a writer's room paid. I had done a writer's room on BET, but that was the first big writer's room show that I had done. What's a BET writer's room? It was, I worked for on a show called Live from LA.

It was this comedian, Michael Collier. Oh yeah, yeah, I remember him. And he had a show and it was a lot of funny writers on there actually. Michael Collier, he used to be a street performer, right? He used to be a street performer at Venice Beach. In Venice Beach. I remember him. What happened to that guy? I don't know. I love him though. He came and did Black-ish and he did such a good job.

That's nice. He's just so funny. Really good guy. Now the writers room experience, you really kind of pulled it together from PA but you weren't a writer's assistant at Kenan show. You were just a P.A. P.A. And then we got Lady Sean. I was giving us a writer's job and the show got canceled right before our first writer's job.

You know, we got it. And David went away as the show was getting who you and who my partner at the time was this guy, Faisal Walker. And it was you guys actually. Ian Edwards was one of the writers on that show and I think Ian is one of the funniest dudes and there was Vernon Chapman was on that show like but like some of the funniest human beings which show is this this was the Keenan Ivey Wayne show oh yeah yeah yeah yeah Vernon's like a real he's out there dude he's a genius he had a pitch that they still talk about now it was um he pitched a sketch called too many niggas on stage yeah and it was at the wu-tang s group and like a guy came out he was like yo god he's like i got new god i got god god and it's like all of a sudden like it's 100 people on stage and the stage collapses and you hear as like it's a it's like a and the stage collapses and you hear as like, it's a, it's like a mess of everything.

And you just hear for under the rebel, man, we got too many niggas on stage. And it was, I knew Vernon went to go right for Chris rock. You could hear the jokes. You could hear his voice. You know what I'm saying?

And you could hear this other guy, Michael Anthony Snowden, just a fucking brilliant guy. He co-wrote Scary Movie and White Chicks or some of those other things, whatever. The Wayne Show. Yeah. But like brilliant, brilliant people. And you could hear. That was my first time.

You started being like, I can hear a Marc Maron joke. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. My partner, Jonathan Gro groff came and did your show and john groff yeah he was my partner on blackish he's like i dude john groff and i started together in boston doing stand-up he was the i got him his first writing job oh wow he's a funny motherfucker dude he he uh like i was hosting short attention span theater on Comedy Central and he was a comic. But like he was moving into writing. But we did open mics together in Boston in the fucking 80s, dude.

Oh, wow. So I've known him a long time and I needed I the they didn't want to hire a writer at this dumb little clip show. I did. And I made them pull, you know, i pulled in john and that was his first job uh writing and then he went on to conan and and that was history he's a monster monster monster in the writer's room seriously really he you know he's a jeopardy grand champion and yeah it's just super funny you know god that like bits will come out of the you're not even thinking about stuff and he'll just do i forgot that he was there so you guys you created that together no i created it i created it but um how'd you meet him so when i was creating it um the person they brought on to help me through the pilot was larry wilmore who you know was i was a huge fan of larry and i parted before the show started or right before the show came on because Larry got the nightly show or whatever.

And so I knew I was going to need going into it. I knew I knew before the show even got picked up that Larry was going to have a show. So I knew I was going to need an experienced person to do this with. And we brought in Jonathan, Jonathan Ross. So he was there with me from the beginning. And although he didn't create the show with me, he is by every aspect my partner on that show. He was amazing. For a white guy from New Hampshire or Boston, wherever he's from, to come in to let a guy who had never run a show before do something different. Because that show hadn't really quite been done like that before. And I just was telling stories about my family.

And he let me sort of like really run a show but at the same time told me what I didn't know and dealt with the network and deal with editing I anyone else the you know the ego that would have been you know they would have possibly had would have not let my voice come out but he really really really fostered my voice in a way and he did the same thing with the kid who created David Kass who did created Happy End Endings. There's a few of those guys, Ira Ungerlinger, there's a few of those guys who in town, they do something really special and they know how to come in and work with writers and let their voice come out, but at the same time, not let their ego get in the way so that the show doesn't suffer. And he's one of those guys and he's you know paid well for it but so wait so what was the jump to so when you created blackish what was the

what was the inspiration man like you were just it's time for a black show i'd sold a ton of pilots i sold 19 pilots and you know they had gone to various levels but never went all all the way and i was in those pilots I think I was trying to like do the family people wanted to see. Sometime I'd write a show and then I'd turn the characters white. You know what I'm saying? Or I'd do sort of like the,

you know, the Malik and Saul, like a black guy and a Jewish guy who lived next door. I was trying to like find some hook. And I felt like I really started like thinking the people who I loved and the people that I sort of like really wanted to emulate the thing that they did time and time

again was they told their story. And so I was like, you know, I finally was like, fuck it. You know, I had so many friends, my wife's a doctor. You know, I had these kids who, you know, you're taught to give your kids more than you have but doing that what do they lose you know i'm saying what do you lose out on and i had these kids who were look were black kids but didn't look like the black kids that i remember in terms of the things that they wanted the things that they did their friends and i started talking to so many of my friends and that was their experience too whether they were black or white and so that was sort of the conceit of the show is that our people our age having kids, we were kind of started like being the dinosaurs. Right. And I was trying to

like, hold on to like the blackness in my kids. But at the same time, I wanted them to sort of have the privileges of little white kids. And so that was sort of the conceit of like, what black is about. And you know, we got when I got a chance to do it, it was, you know, Lawrence fishburne is why that show got picked up you know i'm saying like he was just a big star to be doing comedy and like such a a big jump he's so good in it he's beyond good anthony anderson and tracy ross are why it stayed on you know i'm saying because they're all you know but like we all you know kind of came together and we were in this little siloed off pod.

Will Moore, Groff, me, you know, the guys. And it just was like, we, we did something and you could kind of feel, we didn't know if it was going to work or not, but you kind of felt like whether it worked or not, it was, you felt good about it and you felt like it was different. In your mind, like sort of like, what do you think, how was it part of the evolution of that, of a black family show? Like what, how was it different in your mind?

So I think Cosby for me, you know, was amazing. You know what I'm saying? I think that it was, it changed society. You know, it was the first time my white friends wanted the same dad that I wanted. You know what I'm saying? I was like, oh, you want to be my dad too? I want to be my dad too. Like, you know, and it, but Cosby was very, he, you want to be my dad too? I want to be my dad too. But Cosby was very

political in that he made a point. The Cosby show, they could have been white. You could take those characters and tell basically the same stories. And he did that purposely. He did not talk about race. And I made a point with Black-ish that it was absolutely

about a Black family. It was about their experiences. So I think that was the evolution. And at the same time that it was absolutely about a Black family, you know, and like, it was about their experiences. And so I think that was the evolution. And at the same time, it was, whereas the Cosbys never really seemed conscious of their socially, socioeconomic status, you know what I'm saying? That was a multi-million dollar brownstone and they were, you know, obviously doing really well. They never really seemed too conscious of their socioeconomic status. That show, Black-ish was very conscious of like, they have made it. You know what I'm saying? Or they have, they're at the, and really in the middle class pool in a real big way. Yeah, right.

Subsequently, it ended up, I think one of the things that kept that show on and keeps it going is for a long time, it was the group that watched the most was the highest per-income family, highest per-income groups of any show on television watched that show. I don't know why. No, Black-ish. Oh, okay, good.

I think that it was the sort of aspirational wish fulfillment part of it, you know what I'm saying? But like the people who watched it, there were a lot of, for advertisers who wanted to come and sell expensive stuff. That was a good place for them. And so I think that it got good ratings, great ratings at first. And then Empire came and took all our all our African-American viewers away because it was opposite us.

But, you know, got got really decent ratings and still gets decent ratings. But it was the I think the voice of that show ended up being what actually made it special. Right. For sure. And did you find that, like, cause I know that, you know, whatever your relationships were with your family, that, you know, that this is a milder version of, of you and your father. Oh, 100%. That was the love letter to my dad. Yeah. That was, you know, um, you know, my dad um you know my dad you know was the was the was not that version of what pop is but he had some of those things yeah you saw pops out you know there was a i was just having this conversation it's so you left out the jaw

breaking i left out the jaw breaking and let him get i did not leave out that she shot him though i did not in blackish you know the mom has shot the dad and um but um you know there's a great thing i like you know honeymoon is one of my favorite shows ralph graham doing i'm saying like sure but the notion of how with the difference between black characters and white characters like here was a character that wore a wife beater that told his wife you know say one more fucking word i'm gonna punch you in your fucking mouth and that was like a beloved you know statement you know i'm saying like the moon to the moon i'm gonna fucking punch you in it but no you knew he'd never do it you knew he'd never do it but

the idea of a i think that was the notion of what cosby understood that he could never at that time be a black character it had he had to be perfect. It's like Barack and the Romney debates, you know what I'm saying, where you knew Barack could have sliced him to shreds during that debate, but you have to meter yourself. And that was Cosby metering himself. For me, Black Witch was a little bit more stepping, not quite pow to the moon, but you had Anthony is blustery, you know what I'm saying? Lawrence was a little bit not great as a grandfather,

you know what I'm saying? So it was a stepping out a little bit, and I kind of think what I wanted to do when I did this show at Netflix was take that next step, you know what I'm saying? And say that we could not have to worry about, not just not worry about being perfect, be completely fucked up. You know what I'm saying?

Be completely fucked up and be completely flawed. You know, but that be a version of what the Black experience is because we're not monolithic. You know what I'm saying? We're not, you know, there's not, there's a version of it that lives in, in the Cabrini-Greens projects where Good Times is.

There's a version that lives in that brownstone with Cosby. There's a version that lives in Studio City with Black-ish. There's a version that lives with Bernie Mac. And we don't have to keep telling the same version of a story. That's right. So then it's more than four stories. That's good. But it's still a family story.

For me, I'm trying to not be a part of that four story. Well, I think what's unique about you right now is in in talking to you, but in watching the new show is your's the swagger necessary to maintain a type of lifestyle that you judge yourself against as being, you know, what what kind of like slightly irresponsible, rich black person should be like your awareness of it. And you're judging yourself, putting yourself in between those guys, you know, and in between this Jewish kid and also, or who was the guy that made it? Was it who made the guess? Who was the writer? Was it Steve Levitan? Yeah. Levitan. Like you are, that's, that's part of you in your head. And it always has been part of you. Like, you know, it's interesting because that story is a real conceited. That story is based on a, a, a thing with Jeffrey Katzenberg. I went to, um, the stupidest thing I did when I got any money is I bought a Ferrari thing with jeffrey katzenberg i went to um the stupidest thing i did when i got any money is i bought a ferrari you know i'm saying i i did it it has like 400 miles i never drive it but i did it and and i was kind of embarrassed to drive it um and

one night i got um tickets floor seats to the lakeery game and i was like i asked my daughter i was like hey you want to go to the game and she was like sure i'll go to the game i was like let's take the ferrari i was like you've never even want to go to the game? She was like, sure, I'll go to the game. I was like, let's take the Ferrari. I was like, you've never even been in it, right? She was like, no. So we had a daddy-daughter night. We went out. We're sitting on the floor.

And who walks up to me halftime? It's like fucking Jeffrey Katzenberg. And I look up. I'm like, hey, Jeffrey Katzenberg. And he's like, hey, man. He's like, I just want to tell you I'm a big fan. I'm like, the fuck are you talking about, Jeffrey Katzenberg? I'm looking for fucking Ashton Kutcher to come out, run out.

I'm like, what's happening right now? And he's like, look, man, I really love your voice. He's like, would you ever want to have breakfast? I'm like, sure, Jeffrey Katzenberg. I'd love to have breakfast one day. So I give him. We exchange numbers. We go back to the game.

It's an overtime game. Me and my daughter have a great time. We get home late, 11.30. I'm getting out of the shower. Jeffrey Katzenberg texts me. He's like, hey, bud, would you want to have breakfast somewhere? I'm like, you know, getting out of the shower. Jeffrey Katzenberg texts me. He's like, Hey bud, would you want to have breakfast somewhere? I'm like, Oh shit. He followed up. And I'm like, yeah, Jeffrey Katzenberg, I have breakfast. So I'm like, you know, rushing out. He wants to go to John and Benny's in LA. I live in the Valley. I'm like, I got to get over there. I'm running. It's late. I know there's going to be traffic. And I run out the house

and I realized where I parked the car. Usually I park in the garage. It was blocking all the other cars and I was already late. And I was like, fuck, I'm going to have to take this car. I was like, you know what? I'll park it up the street. So I go to park it up the street. Of course, there's no parking spaces. Of course, I'm about to run late. So I'm like, fuck it. I'll just park it. I'll run in. As I get out the car, who's in the fucking Prius ahead of me? Fucking Jeffrey Katzenberg. And he gets out and he looks and he's like, hey, man, nice car. Nice trip for you. Nice car. Hey there.

He comes up to the side and he opens up the passenger. He's like, what year is this? I'm like, I don't know. Year is one of a majesty. All I was hearing in my head is, hey, black guy spending all his money on a car. I could buy Ferrari. And I just was like, I wanted to burn the car. I wanted to take it and burn it in the middle.

I was so bothered that during the breakfast, I'm not even listening to anything he's saying. I'm just Googling, does Jeffrey Katzenberg have jet? I'm like, does he spend his money irresponsibly too? I'm not listening to shit he says and i'm mad at myself because i'm like honestly in terms of a four i could afford this car you know i'm saying it wasn't like a an expense that i was you know no i was but i felt stupid having it i felt even stupider that this billionaire is in a prius you know i'm saying and i felt that's the duality that starts the conceit of the show that lasts you know basically, basically is that we're, I'm constantly fighting this sort of like, damned if I do, damned if I don't feeling. Yeah. But, but is, is that, has that always been with

you that, you know, do you, cause you do seem a little thoughtful in the sense of like, you know, you're, you're not cocky. I mean, you know, you've got, it sounds like, you know, you know, you're not cocky. I mean, you know, you've got, it sounds like, you know, you have your moments where you get pissed off, but it's not like you do something where you're, you know, totally shameless without recognizing what you're doing. Yes. I think I've forced myself to do it. There's been moments when I'm sitting at a fucking parent-teacher conference, and I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, and I'm like, this teacher is not taking me seriously. I have sagging jeans on, a hoodie with $200,000 worth of chain sticking out of it. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, this person is not taking me serious.

And, you know, it's like I'm like, this person is not taking me serious. And I realize what I'm supposed to be a parent. And then I have to always like, but fuck that. This is who I am. Always living that back and forth moment. But that just tells me that, you know, there's some part of you that doesn't take it serious, that you're like, what am I doing? I absolutely know. I'm, you know, I remind I'm I'm desperately trying not to be the old guy who's trying to be hip you know i'm saying you know like it's it's right at that

point though i'm right there it's very hard to know how to dress as a as an old guy it is it is because like there just seems to be like either you you try and hang on or you're just wearing clothes and no one even fucking notices. Exactly. Exactly. And you want to. And the notion of even trying sometime you do better to not try, because if you try and fail, then you've actually really failed. But if you don't try and you feel like I didn't want to try, I don't care. So trying to sometime makes it a little bit harder. so you're a little bit more conscious of it. So I'm very conscious of everything with myself. You know what I'm saying?

I remember seventh grade, my face broke out horribly, right? Right when you're talking to like girls, right when you're, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, it made me, I think that more than anything, along with stuff made me sort of funny because I went and sat in the back of the class. I would sit in the back of the class and I would just watch every single person that walked in. And I'd look at them every day from head to toe, head to toe. And I'd wait for someone to say, you know, I was a shy kid. I'd wait for someone to say, try to bag on me. and they'd say it back and i would say something back so quick that was so fucking sharp and so painful that like i would just crush them and they'd be like how did you think about that and i'm like oh i've been thinking of sitting on this for three and a half months

i've been waiting for you i was so prepared and ready that like i was like loved by fear but that's like those are good comic chops to have yeah that's sort of the the preemptive you know insult yes yes if i was doing comedy now i would look in the audience before i got up and i would just fucking just look at like who was a little boisterous and i would just wait i would have 10 jokes ready oh Oh yeah. You got to have that skill. Yeah. I mean, that's sort of how I looked at all audiences for probably the first decade of doing comedy. Like they don't like, like I would go into it assuming they didn't like me and that there

was going to be a problem. And you were ready. I was ready. I, and if there wasn't a problem, I'd make one. And you were ready. I was ready. And if there wasn't a problem, I'd make one. It was like a fucking stand with round open carry mic room.

That's right. It was just sort of like, you know, I would focus in on the one fucker that had a sour face. And I just ruined the entire show to shit on that guy. I saw Ian Edwards destroy a woman i mean literally may i'm sure she went home and rethought her life and she deserved every point moment of it but it's like i don't know if audiences understand that like sometime if a comic a real comic is having a bad night don't give him a good night don't turn it into a good night you know i'm saying like let him let him let him go down in flames because that is one thing that most comics can do you say something and you can turn their night around oh for sure yeah i mean it was like it really became

this weird thing the evolution of my interaction with crowds was most of the time um you you know what what other people are thinking is something you're making up. Like, like they're you know, when you see somebody and you make assumptions, you have no fucking idea what they're thinking. And and they're not even thinking about you most of the time. Right. So it's like, why base your entire attitude on this idea that you're projecting onto them? Like I talked to this British comic, Stuart Lee. He said, like, if someone doesn't like me, I now have to, like, and this is a guy that quit the business

because he couldn't stand the stupidity of the audiences. But now, like, he comes back and he's got this new attitude where he sees somebody that clearly doesn't understand him or doesn't like him and doesn't think he's funny. And his thought is like, yeah, this was not a bad choice for you this night you made a wrong decision right right it's a he has empathy sort of like yeah this isn't going to be great for you and uh so all right well how the all these other shows are going good or like are you done or how many issues we gonna. We might do one more. There's three of them now.

We might do one more that I'm excited about. That, that, that, those guys are my family and it has been the gift that has not stopped giving for me. You know, it is, I'm, I have a special place in my heart for network television because you get to really reach families in a different kind of way you know and the rules that you're are placed upon you actually make your show better in some aspects it makes it wider you know i shouldn't say better it makes it wider um and you learn to write for a white artists i was really i was scared as fuck with this netflix show

and i'm still you know i took you know it's interesting i took a ton of ton of bad press you know i'm saying it's the you know but it's also the most talked about thing i've ever done you know i'm saying it is very polarizing and it's like people i literally look and like people love it or they hate it um you know i woke, I, I woke up Sunday to like a left hook from the Atlantic, you know, like just taking a shot, a swing at the show. And, um, what was the, what was the angle? Um, basically it was someone who felt that I, you know, had some clandestine sort of fucking message in the show that wasn't up to what she felt black culture should be and I'm just like I want to have an open

this is where I want to like be an old west gunslinger I'm open to debating every one of these people because I feel like the notion of people defining what is black or what's black enough or what's not black enough or what's too black or whatever it's like who the fuck are you

you know what I'm saying like I'm telling my personal experience. You can't tell me what, you don't want to watch it, don't watch it. You know what I'm saying? But haven't those discussions been going on since, you know, the black middle class was invented? Yeah, but I think that right now there is a self-appointed vanguard, which I like to call the woke media. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, it goes along with white critics, too.

This fucking guy, you know, but I understand more when, you know, this fucking reviewer at fucking Variety. I don't know what this guy's name is, but I'm writing it down. Like I was I was, you could have sworn I slept with his girlfriend or something. It was such, the embargo on when you could review the show came up, say it stops at 12 a.m. on Thursday.

He posted his 12.03. So it set the story. Furious. Just personally angry at me. Personally angry at me. Fur angry at me, furious. Like, I mean, like if you read, you should read the review. It's like, man. And so he set the stage for people sort of to start taking shots.

You know, but at the same time, it was, it was called the funniest show of the year by like the Chicago sometimes or something like, you know, you know, and, and, you know, people at the deadline loved it and people just loved it and people just hated it. But the Atlantic took a, took a shot, you know, they, you know, you know, and, and, you know, people at the deadline loved it. And people just loved it and people just hated it. But the Atlantic took a, took a shot, you know, they, you know, in their sort of academic way. And I appreciate it. I have, although I didn't agree with it,

I appreciate that everyone should have their opinion. I think that's important. I wish that I could say I didn't read these and I didn't care, but I do fucking care. Sometimes if somebody's smart, you know, you can, you can, it's easier to take in a sense because you're like, all right, well, I get the argument. This isn't just an attack. Yes. Even if I don't agree, I get the argument. Right. Right. And so even if I feel like you totally missed it,

which I think this person did, I get, you at least formed an opinion that was based on, you gave some context to your opinion. Isn't there an element of it that really is addressing, you know, that conflict of like how we're supposed to live and who gets to decide that? Absolutely. And I think that that actually even enticed the media more to want to talk about the show because there was that sort of almost indictment, you know what I'm saying, of critics. almost indictment, you know what I'm saying, of critics. And I think that this article actually was saying that the indictment had the presumption of that there were no Black critics. And I didn't say that, you know what I'm saying, but that was what this person, you know, extracted from it. With that being said, you know, I, you know, close my laptop, my stomach is hurting, and I get the nicest text from Malcolm Gladwell, I'm not friends with or whatever who got my number and says that he enjoyed

the show and it was so gratifying. I hope he's okay with me saying that but it was so gratifying because I am like a disciple of Malcolm Gladwell. I love how he takes things that seem random and nothing from an economist point of view puts them in a way that

gives some order to things that seem like they didn't have order before um so you know it was a comic like a comic seriously pulls and finds the things that were are observational you know i'm saying and actually puts them in a way that you're like oh i never thought about it like that right you know so um so you know it's it's it's very polarizing it's very divisive i think but that, if I'm going to be honest, if I could do it all, if I had to do it all over again, I probably would do that again, you know, not try to be polarizing on purpose, but I would want to say something that probably if you say anything that's ever worth being said, it's going to be, if everybody agrees with what you said, you're probably wrong.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Or else you're, you you said you're probably wrong yeah yeah or else you you're you're spineless i used to do a joke about that that um uh if if you don't have at least one guy out there saying this about you that guy's a fucking asshole you haven't really made an impact that's right seriously seriously um so you know it, it is, Netflix is a really big platform and you don't realize how big it is.

Until you get lost. No, seriously. And that was a really big part of like, for me coming from ABC, where you knew you had that score in the morning after your show, you know, you had a score and you knew that they were going to promote you because you were on their airway. So you knew you were going to get commercials. You knew you had a market, but the idea that Netflix, I think is going to do 400 series this year, you know what I'm saying? And so the idea of standing out in that crowd, you know what I'm

saying? I was unbelievably important to me. You know, I wanted to make sure that it was noisy, um, you know, and, you know, Andy and and cindy and channing and the team over there and gazal like you know the comedy team over there like really gave me an opportunity because and they it was not without a fight like they were very scared of me playing the role you know i think yeah i think yeah you're i think you're the like the best thing about the show oh my god i'm a horrible actor but You're hilarious. It works in some aspects at certain times enough for that show.

It makes it a little bit noisier. I think Larry playing himself in Curve makes it noisier. If he went and had an actor, it would just have been another Seinfeld. If I had an actor, it would have just been exactly another Black-ish. Yeah, but you're funny. Oh, thanks, man.

Thanks. I do not see myself in that aspect. I think that I'm funny on the page. I think I have a sense of humor. The thing that I got, and I really give so much credit to Rashida Jones because she's a talented, gifted comedic actress. And she gave me support in a way that let me sort of be myself. And that's the that's the hardest thing. It was what close to my version of that hyper, you know, hyperbole of a character.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I think it's hilarious. And what was your like? Was your like you say, when your old man died, that you guys had had some sort of you guys are OK with each other. So he was able to kind of see your success and be part of it, as was your mother. Yeah, they really they really were. It been very it's very difficult at times i think my dad handled it better than my mom because he's a guy yeah my mom is you know it's you know she's you know she will say you know why didn't you tell me about you know uh i saw in the paper that you you know you did this and i'm like mom i you don't care about that. Why do you, you know what I'm saying? Like, I, but I think she wants to know that she, so she can tell her friends. Right. I bought my mom, how my mom,

you know, got my mom a car, hopefully I get her a house. And she was, my mom does fine. You know what I'm saying? But she wanted to say my son did this. Right. It was very important for her to say that. You know what I'm saying? And I think that. I think that it's hard. I think it's been harder on my family because that's the thing, I think, just with Black culture in particular. I think like Tyler Perry is an example. I like Tyler. I very much so like some of the things he does. Everything he does is not my cup of tea, but I think that my mom and aunts and some of my cousins, they love Tyler. They go and they were watching his plays on VHS before he came out. And they would go first day, first weekend, his movies are number one.

And they really, from their heart, not because he's black, they liked his movies. And because Hollywood or whatever the masses may say, it's not elevated comedy or not elevated art. What the fuck? That means that these people who say they like it, their opinion is wrong. And so I'm getting back to the point of what I'm getting at is that I think it's unfair in a little bit because for Tyler, he has to carry the weight of so much of the culture, you know what I'm saying? Because there's so few of us, you know what I'm saying? There's so few of us that like, you know, Adam Sandler, who I think is amazing, you know what I'm saying because there's so few of us you know what I'm saying there's so few of us but like you know Adam Sandler who I think is amazing you know what I'm saying but like Adam Sandler

puts out fucking Jack and Jill it's not the end of white culture you know what I'm saying he's going to destroy white culture because he puts out you know some fucking you know movie that people might say that's a shitty Adam Sandler movie that makes a ton of money so he can keep doing it but it's not the end of white culture but we put there's so few of

us out that when we do something, it is put under the scrutiny of you have the whole entire culture. And I think that happens with my family too, because there's so few of us that get to like, you know, be successful as a writer. I think, you know,

in times of a comedy writer, like black comedy writer, like I'm probably one of the bigger black comedy writers, you know i'm saying like yeah so so it's a very unique thing and my mom is not that's not something that her she can say that people are used to seeing yeah so it puts a lot of pressure on that first generation success first generation you know right and also then there's the element too that depending on, like I remember when my grandmother got all her friends together to see my 1995 HBO half hour.

Yes. Within the first minute, I say fuck like 90 times. And, you know, it was one of those things where, you know, I call her up. I'm like, what do you think? She's like, why'd you have to be so filthy? Like, but you're also up against this idea that, you know, you're doing your thing on Netflix and there's a possibility that your mother's generation is like, why can't you be more like Tyler Perry? Yes. No, no. My mom, when I quit BET,

I was working on a show on the call the game on, and I quit BET to go do my pilot on ABC. My mom was like, so you're leaving BET, huh? Those people, they really supported you over there. I was like, yeah, my mom bought ABC. I know, but it's so interesting. For her, she's like, that's her people. You know what I'm saying? My mom and I, those are my people too, but I understand the idea from a career standpoint, that was a jump and a leap that lets me now go back to BET if I choose to. You know what I'm saying? But the idea of like being able to say to little kids to look up and want to be a writer, that there is a writer who made it in mainstream and decided to go back to BT

and, you know, and help skip BT. I can help rise that, you know, help that boat rise. But I think that, you know, it's, it's so scary for us sometime because there's so few of us to make those leaps. Oh, it's interesting. Yeah. Because there's a, you know, the different version of that is people who actually, you know, are held back or hold themselves back, you know, because the culture pressures them to do it. Yeah. You know, to get out of that mental head.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's like Chris Rock joke, but can you kick my ass? You know, like the notion of like, you know, it it's all that smarty arty you know but like the idea of it um you know it's a constant it's the duality the idea of we're we're constantly sort of speaking two languages you know i'm saying as being african-american and being black in america you are speaking the language of your culture which is now being fragmented into many different languages, and you're speaking the language of the mainstream. And so I think that it's even becoming harder

for Black culture, because now Black culture is not, it used to be sort of a singular thing. And now we're seeing the Black culture, it's Donald Glover on Atlanta. You know what I'm saying? It's Gerard Carmichael. It's Tyler Perry. You know, it's Cardi B. And so we're kind of like, we're at that sort of infighting stage. But I think that we would come out of this better. I do. But I think that we are at that stage. One of my favorite prior lines is when he goes back home after he first gets successful. And the guy in the pool house says, he's just doing the same shit you did around here and he goes he says give me a dollar it is so fucking real that shit is so real but that the specificity of richard saying that

yeah so many people there's a version that you understand of that yeah oh yeah of course whenever you level up there's always somebody's like, whatever. You know what I'm saying? The idea of the idea that is so universal. But speaking about it from my culture, you know, I'm saying we have a specific you know, I put a tweet out and I erased it so quickly. I was like, niggas are such haters nowadays. It's not even fun being rich anymore. You know, like the quietly comfortable is the new rich. You know what I'm saying? Right.

Let me take this down because this will ruin you. But the notion of, I understand, you know, that there are so few of us, you know, I'm saying making these things that as much as we may not want it, there is a responsibility that we do represent the whole culture each time we step out. And I can't like get so mad that I respond back in a way that seems like I'm not being open to, you know, to my my my community, because I do understand that I do owe them. And I do know that they have put me in position in a way. And although I don't agree with understand that I do owe them. And I do know that they have put me in position in a way. And although I don't agree with everything, I do owe them. Yeah. And also, but you're also honoring that part of you that respects comedy that does that, to be unleashed a little bit and then to see what happens, to be provocative.

Absolutely. That's why when I got a chance to do this this when i got a chance to do your show when i did um the whatever shows on npr where the woman's never in the room terry gross oh yeah terry yeah yeah i you know i did terry gross when i got a humanity there's moments that i feel like as a comedian as a comic writer yeah i'm like they matter you know i'm saying and like this is i feel like you know i my big thing now is to really make sure that i let everyone know how much my image awards matter you know i'm saying and let everyone else know how much they matter to them too and like that we need to start you

know heralding ourself more you know i'm saying and for such outside um you know such outside applause yeah inside too well well well thanks for talking to me, man. Thank you, man. Oh, this has been an honor. Oh, I appreciate it.

And I, and I was, uh, it was really a good talk, a good conversation, man. I appreciate it, man.

Uh, I hope, I hope I see you in traffic soon. Yeah, we should, we should hang out. Yeah. At some point when,

uh, when we get through the plague, did you see the fucking Pentagon put out confirmed UFO footage? Oh, come on. When was this? It was like two days ago on CNN. I look it up and I'm like, Pentagon, you don't think you could have waited for this? Yeah. You don't think we have enough

on our plates right now? Tell them to deliver a fucking cure to this shit. All right. Well, thanks so much, Mark. deliver a fucking cure to this shit um all right well thanks so much mark that was me and kenya barris uh black af black as fuck is now streaming on netflix um that was it was good to talk to him as i recall when my heart was in a different place before it was crushed and bleak. Sad. How about just sad?

I'm a grown-ass man. Alright? I've been playing some guitar. I've been just pounding at it. I've got to... It's hard to connect. It's hard to connect. It's hard to connect

the feelings that are happening inside of me with things that are coming out of me. out of my mouth, out of my hands. But here. Thank you. guitar solo Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption

actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

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