WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1129 - Jerry Seinfeld

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

WTF started as a comedy podcast. It’s a show made by a comedian who wanted to talk to other comedians about comedy. Finally, after more than 10 years, Marc talks with the most well-known, most successful, and arguably most influential comedian in history, Jerry Seinfeld. About comedy. About how Jerry got started in comedy, how he was incapable of socializing, how he forged a friendship with Larry David, how he fueled himself with anger toward one person in particular. But mostly just about comedy and what comedy is. They have some, it’s fair to say, differing opinions on it. This episode is sponsored by Pataday Once-Daily Relief and Stamps.com. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks out in the streets? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. How's it going? Are you okay, man? I mean, you know, I know some people are worried about me, worried about the world, but how are you there looking out your window, doing your dishes, getting all emotional for unclear reasons? How are you doing sitting there trying to work with your house that has become some sort of strange kindergarten for your own children? How are you doing sitting alone wondering, own children how are you doing sitting alone wondering is it ever going to be okay is it ever going to be okay again is this just the way it is am i going to work is what i do relevant anymore how are you how's it going so look on today's show i talked to jerry seinfeld i talked to him i'll get into that a little more in a minute let's just get in check in with the immediate situation with what's happening i'm hoping this week maybe i'll get out to do um

to be present at some protests for all the right reasons. I haven't been able to get out there for my own personal reasons, but I feel like I may go out this week. I don't think it's too late. I'd like to feel part of the community speaking out. I want to be part of that. I also want to, again, direct people to a few places where they can donate some money if you're feeling powerless or you're afraid or unable to go outdoors or if there's not a protest near you and you don't you have a few extra bucks. You can go to Black Voters Matter Fund. They work directly and successfully on increasing the political power of black communities through voter registration and engagement on the local level, not just during presidential elections. That's Black Voters Matter Fund dot org. The NAACP, always a good place to help out. That's the NAACP always a good place to help out that's the NAACP legal defense fund police

reform and racial justice efforts need litigation and advocacy to be successful the NAACP LDF.org and of course the ACLU always continuing to be helpful for maintaining the first amendment rights of protesters and fighting legal challenges in court that's aclu.org be safe out there be righteous fight the good fight hopefully if everything works out this week i'll be talking to um stacy abrams on um thursday if everything works out she's been busy hopefully we'll that'll happen so jerry seinfeld okay the thing with jerry is a lot of you know like why is it taking so long for jerry to come on i don't know and and the weird thing about this interview a lot of you know, like, why is it taking so long for Jerry to come on? I don't know. And the weird thing about this interview is that if you're just new to this show or just the last few years, this was the comedy podcast. It was a comedy podcast.

I mean, that's what I did. I talked to comedians for years. comedians for years and we put together a fairly kind of deep and broad historical archive of comics going way back i mean i talked to you know shelly berman i talked to uh jonathan winters i talked to marty allen for fuck's sake but i mean the thing is is this was a place where comedians came to talk about their real life their hearts and whatnot hash stuff out because I love comedians I am a comedian that is my heart that is my life and I believe that's true about Jerry but he was never one of my guys. Never was. Couldn't connect. I could not connect with Jerry. But the thing about,

the reason I'm making a point on this, on this particular show to talk about this is like, you know, comedians, like even someone like Judd Apatow thought this show when, when WTF really started picking up speed, he said it was like his Nirvana. And, you know up speed, he said it was like his Nirvana. And,

you know, he, he, we were the show that he brought the interviews that he did when he was in high school with comics that came to the comedy club that his mother worked at, you know, and,

and sort of go through that stuff. This is where it happened. And over time, you know, there were white whales. There were people that, you know, I wanted to get that kind of fit into the history of comedy as I knew it took a long time to get letterman it took years to get

lauren michaels and i had a personal you know obsession with that but they come if you go look at the back catalog there's a lot of comics you may never heard of there's a lot of comics that you hadn't heard of then but are big now but this was where comedy was discussed and this is where we you know this is where it happened albert brooks still hasn't come on but one thing i've learned from doing this show as long as i've done it you know comedy every you know there are well-adjusted comedians there are comedians that i don't think are funny that people love there are comedians that do things that i don't agree with uh but I understand and sometimes still think are funny. There are comedians that don't show themselves at all in their act.

That's rare. It's usually there somewhere, but it's not necessarily they don't think they are. But for me, comedy as a stage, when I was young, it was the only thing that made sense to me. It was the only thing. When I watched it, I thought, these guys make sense of stuff. These guys make it okay. These guys take big ideas, things that are frightening, overwhelming, seemingly complicated, confusing. And they kind of render it down into something funny.

And they kind of render it down into something funny. For me, it was I got into it for the pursuit of a certain personal truth, of a way to be seen as a way to express myself. And I tried a lot of different stuff, man. When I was in high school and college, photography, journalism, acting, film studies, all this stuff. But from when I was 11 or 12 years old, in my my heart it was like comics are that's the noble profession that's how you become a statesman of yourself that's how you find your place in the world that's how you share the truth as you see it that's how you become who you are it's deep man it's not for fucking lightweights or amateurs it's all in there philosophy psychology history everything emotional truth it's all in there it's what comedy is to me it's all of it

you can get on a stage and do whatever the fuck you want as long as it's funny now i agree with that and i just said it so that's good but what is funny right and what does it mean to be funny? I've talked about it with a lot of people, not necessarily so specifically as I talk about it with Jerry. There's no doubt that he's one of the most popular comics ever, and no doubt he's probably the richest comic ever. But why don't I, how come I never connected with him?

You know, how come? I imagine there's other people out there that didn't like i truly respect and understand and have a sort of deep well of empathy and love for for my my fellow comedians without a doubt and i judge and i resent and i'm critical sometimes and i dislike sometimes but but the core of it is this is a community of rogues and socially awkward weirdos and hustlers some borderline criminals true artists, people who are possessed by something that only they understand and have to make it understandable to others. It's not just a shtick, man. It's not just a job. Not for me.

And not for the people I respect. and not for the people I respect. It's a necessity and it's a channel of truth that can run very deep. But there was something that I needed. I got to get into it. You know, I got to get into it with Jerry. He wanted to come on

and I swear to God, I was like, really? Are you sure? Maybe it was because it's easier now because he doesn't have to come here and I swear to God, I was like, are you really, are you sure? Maybe it was because it's easier now because he doesn't have to come here. I don't know. And I'm not sure I know after I talked to him, but now he's part of it. Now he's part of the great, uh, WTF tapestry that I'm weaving of the history of comedy. And he's an important part. And I don't think there's an interview like this with him.

I can tell you that. And he's got a new stand-up special called 23 Hours to Kill. It's streaming on Netflix right now. I watched it. And I watched that old documentary, Comedian, for the first time, which I found difficult. And also, I think it's important to note that this is the first interview I did since Lynn's passing. We didn't know really how or who to do that with. I mean, there was an idea around with me and Brendan McDonald that maybe I should talk to somebody I knew.

And I think I vetoed that in light of the fact that it seems that when I talk to people I know, even not that well, I get pretty emotional. I kept it together for the most part. So buckle up, because now I'm driving. And this is me and Jerry Seinfeld coming right up in just a few minutes. Coming right up in just a few minutes. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

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go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Hey, Mark. Hi, Jerry. How are you? I'm okay. Please accept my condolences. That's very nice of you. For your loss. I'm so sorry. Yeah, it's a rough thing.

I imagine. I can't imagine. Yeah, yeah. How you doing? What do you think? Terrible. You know, and I'm so sorry because I know we were both very much looking forward to finally doing this. Yeah. And of course, we managed to stumble into the least relevant moment for our art form. Wait, what do you mean? You're not working on a riot chunk?

I am. I am, but I'm not going to do it now. You're going to give it a little space? Yeah. You're going to wait a little while? Yeah, we'll give it a little, let it simmer. So you're down, where are you? You're on Long Island?

I'm on Long Island, yeah. One of the Hamptons. And you got all your kids with you and the wife is there and everybody's there and uh i assume the house is big enough to where you can hide oh yeah i don't like to hide though i like uh i like uh uh the mosh pit. Yeah. Yeah. I like the mosh pit. Yeah. You know, I got married so late in life.

Yeah. I was 45. So, so it was really time to have a complete change of context. A full immersion. Yeah. We need us. We need that hole.

You got to go in that hole. You know, the comedy hole. Right. But you know, standup is so wonderfully solitary the the writing of it and the performing and the traveling the solitariness is i do miss that a little bit well i mean i want you know what's weird is that i uh for whatever reason i never watched a comedian

the documentary right and uh and i was i was hanging around the cellar at that time and i remember what were those who were those camera guys? Were they Dutch? What were they, German? No, one guy was a Brit and one American guy. Oh. But man, I watched it last night for the first time. Oh, really? Yeah.

Wow. And it was traumatizing. Really? Really. Really? I mean, I really, there was like, I could not handle the Orny Adams factor. I mean, I thought that maybe 20 years would make that easier, but it was. Really?

I mean, I haven't seen it in 20 years and I certainly would never go back to it. So that's very interesting to hear that. It doesn't age well i i wouldn't say there are parts of it that i think uh you know they i i would say that the the cosby closer is not a great uh a great that doesn't hold up yeah well you know i i you can look at that one of two ways as you know sure but the thing i loved about Orny, because I really was not thinking that he was going to be much a part of the show when we first started to cut it, but I felt like he was the visible comic.

I felt like he had a transparency that I really liked. Right. You could see right into the horrible, whatever it was. I don't even know what you would call it, but there's definitely a point in that movie. I'm not, we don't need to go over the whole film, but there seemed to be a point in that movie where you were like,

this guy is too much. No, no. I mean, all comedians to me, uh, have major issues, you know? Yeah. And I love to grapple with all of those issues. I love I love all of it within other people or yourself and myself. And I just I love the world. I love that. Right. I have a book coming out in October and I wrote a lot of, you know, reflective stuff about comedy. And to me, the comedy was two things. It was being in the art of comedy and then being in the world of comedy. So those were the, and you don't know when you start, you're attracted to comedy because of the substance. But then you go in and then you find out, oh, there's a world. Oh yeah. The world. It's a weird world of rogues and gypsies.

Yeah, yeah. And i fell instantly in love with the world uh yeah well it's like those two things well yeah the whole world you know there there's something about all of us that fundamentally doesn't fit into regular culture or society and yet when we all get together and that's sort of an understood thing yes uh there's there's a brotherhood to it that's very very forgiving and accepting. And I mean, you know, I mean, you've been in it, you know, a lot of the guys that I know and the guys you come up with, I mean, you're dealing with borderline criminals and, and, and, you know, mental cases.

I mean, it's just the way we are. If you're lucky. Yeah. You're lucky because I don't know what's burned you to it, but when I was a kid, you you know I was a very much a Jackie Vernon fan and my parents yeah my parents took me to see him when I was like 11 and in a nightclub and you know and we were sitting

very close in Albuquerque New Mexico at the Hilton Hotel had a nightclub and he came out and we're sitting very close so I could see his sweat and his fat but like something planted inside of me like this is the world

I want to be in the world where this guy lives right well that's why I set up this little tableau here of my I set this up because I've been doing interviews and I thought oh yeah what do i want behind me so these albums that i've saved all these years of you know all the people that

got me crazy but um now that you mention it i've got to get a jackie vernon out my need attack i haven't seen a jackie vernon album there must be one there must be there must be do you have that old uh do you have that one album i found a rodney dangerfield album before he was doing the no respecting called loser wow you have that no that's cool you got to get that record it's like i i don't know where i found it it was signed too so it was like he was still doing like long form story type of bits none of the none before the hook yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of great.

I can see you got Lenny's Carnegie, you got Groucho, you got a later Carlin record. Yeah. I can't, it's sort of

Alan Sherman and Pryor and Monty Python. Oh, and Robert Klein. Klein, yeah. Those were, I mean, how long back, how far back do you remember yeah. Those were your, I mean, how long back,

how far back do you remember being moved by comedy? When was the moment? I suppose when Laughing came out, which I guess was 67 or eight. Yeah. It was a show of just all jokes. It was all jokes. That got me so vibrating.

Very funny to look back on your childhood now and see you were headed down this path instantly and had no idea. Yeah. And I was writing that, copying the jokes from laughing so I could refer to them in conversation the next day. I love this one and I like that one. And, you know. So and also that sort of gave you a sense of uh structure the joke structure yeah yes so it was laughing i mean how old were you when laughing was not i mean i guess i was five so you were like i was i'd be like 13 12 and that's when it registered that's when you realized that people i know i didn't realize it then i just i knew i mean you liked it more into this than? No, I didn't realize it then. I just, I knew. I mean, you liked it. I was more into this than everybody else, but I didn't know that that was going to take me somewhere. And was it, was, uh, was there comedy in the house? Were your parents hilarious? I mean,

did you, were there records? My dad was a crazy, a crazily funny guy. Really? When he was in World War II in the Pacific, he had a file of jokes that he would carry with him. Because, you know, the Army in those days, jokes were a big part of their conversation. Yeah. For all the obvious reasons. And he would save them. So that is a pretty clear genetic link. You know, again, not just remembering them, writing them down. He would write down jokes that other guys would tell him. Yeah. Joke jokes. You know, that was that was the currency joke. That kept him going. Yeah, sure. And he was what was he in the Air Force and Navy?

What was he in the Air Force and Navy? What was he in? Army, regular GI. Yeah. Philippines and, you know, all the Pacific Islands. Did he see action? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah?

Did he talk about it? All the time. Really? Yeah. Guys who were in the Army. Well, your father was not in the war? Well, no. My dad was in the Air Force for two two years but it was like in the late

60s and he entered as a he was you know getting his uh residency as a surgeon so they didn't send him to vietnam we were in alaska for two years so oh really wow yeah so i swear that that i know my dad and his uncle and uncles that i had that were in the army, loved it so much, they never stopped talking about it. Really? Well, you know, in that way, it's such a, you know, what's more impactful in your life than if you've been in a war? So, but he, like, because I thought there were, like, I've heard of guys who, you know, who were so awful,

they never talked about the horrors of the thing. But he sort of found camaraderie, I guess. And, you know, he had guys that were in the war with him that he hung out with, huh? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think he was kind of just drifting in life. Very young, you know. I don't know what age he was, teenager.

And then all of a sudden you're around all these guys and you're all in the same clothes you know and you've all got the same things in your footlocker you know right yeah like camp that was camp a horrible camp a horrible camp you're getting shot at yeah yeah yeah that's it here's how you pack your locker and this is how you avoid dying. Yeah. And then, like, so where'd he grow up? In New York, that guy? Yeah, Brooklyn, Bronx, Manhattan. And, like, were his parents from, like, the old country kind of thing? Yeah, Austria.

Oh, yeah, Austria. Mm-hmm. I think one of mine's, I think my grandfather's family was Austrian, but other than that, it's all Russia, the Jew thing. Right, right. Do you remember your grandparents were you was it a Jew no no grandparents but none it's both orphans really yeah you're not joking no what's the joke I don't know it's definitely a conversation stopper

but yeah orphans yeah wow like from a young age or later before you just from a young age yes oh my god yeah that's interesting so they met pretty late in life and in those days to get married in your 40s was pretty late and uh they met at a wedding there with other people and of course immediately hit her off that they were both orphans. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Did, so you, have you ever tried to track that?

Did you ever do like a 23 and me thing? Do you, I'm not really not that interested. Yeah. But the, the independence that you can imagine that they had. Sure. Certainly came right into me.

Right. Be on your own. Be good on your own be good on your own and you've got you have siblings yeah i have an older sister carol older sister yeah and she's in show business yes she works with me oh that's good so now like you're growing up out there where you're on long island or queens or whatever long island mass people long island and your, like he comes back from the service. What business is he in? What's his racket?

He couldn't function in any sort of corporate environment or even a company. He couldn't work for anybody, you know, because he couldn't do what people told him to do. That's genetic too then, I guess, huh? Yeah. Yes, very much. So he loved when I got into standup. He thought, I wish I had done that. Right.

But so he started a sign business, selling signs. And so he found a guy to paint them and then started selling them. And he could just drive around on his own. So he loved that. General signage? General signage, yes. Storefront, cards, paper signs, you know, all those butcher shops, prime rib, $1.19 a pound, you know, all that stuff. So you could drive through Queens and go like, that's my dad's sign.

Yep. Yep. And your mom, did your mom work? My mom was a bookkeeper for a while, but mostly a housewife. Oh, wow. So like how Jewish did you grow up uh my mother's side heavy orthodox oh my dad's side nothing so your mom had siblings who were orthodox many siblings yes and when we went to their uh that side in brooklyn it was scary it

was dark and it was scary. Funny smelling kitchens. Yeah. Yeah. I love the food. Syrian. Oh, Syrian Jews. My dad is Austrian. My mom is Syrian.

Interesting. So that was a good experience. Right. Yeah. I had someone just because of, you know, what happened. People have been sending me food and someone just sent me a box of Katz's, you know, deli. Yeah. They sent chicken soup with the matzo balls. And you know, there's something about that stuff when you, does your wife cook? Like do you get food like that now? No, no. My wife cooks a lot,

but not that she does. Like, doesn't she do cook books or something? Yeah, she does. Yeah. She mostly does a good plus, which is this fatherhood initiative foundation. Yeah. Which is very relevant in this moment. And they're doing a lot with the pandemic and people out on Long Island. But very involved in homes where there's no father figure. Oh, that's nice. And teaching those guys to get back in there and learn how to do that.

Oh, really? Yeah. If they didn't have any role models of their own. Right. She's done an incredible building this entire program. Did she help? And tremendous success with it. It's really been great.

Oh, that's great. Did she help you become a good father? Oh, yeah. Did it not come natural to you or did it? No. The fun parts do, but not the real parts. Right. You know, making kids laugh, that's what we like to do. The kid laugh is the greatest laugh.

Right, right. But that's it. That's where it ends? That's where it ends, yeah. The rest you had to learn? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. But that's it. That's where it ends. The rest you had to learn. Yeah. Yeah. So when you start doing comedy, when did you realize like who were the guys that were your sort of your role models outside of laughing? I know you talk about. Well, it was Klein when I was a kid. If you lived in New York in the late 60s, early 70s and you saw Robert Klein.

Yeah. That was like a, uh you know getting hit with a uh a Klieg light he was he was before my time I guess because like he was never one of my guys I didn't have those records and you know I should have had those records because I had other records I've grown to appreciate him but he was the guy that really put it in your mind you could do it well yeah I followed him everywhere whenever he did it uh he was working i was there to see it when you were a teenager yeah yeah oh really and i went to the catskills and i saw those guys but klein was like oh there's another way there's this way you grew up in new york you could have a new york attitude but right no cufflinks and ruffled

shirts you'd go up to the catskills with your folks or what? Yeah, with my folks. And I even went as a teenager with my Queens College buddies. And we would go see John Beiner or anybody like that. Oh, really? Yeah. Who else did you see up there at that time? Oh, well, there was Malzie Lawrence.

We loved the old guys. We loved all of them. I still love all of them. I am very non-judgmental of uh comedic style yeah um i i could to give it a you know an accessible example george carlin am and fm no difference for me right no difference yeah i love both of them equally yeah but but you do have don't you feel like you do have um i think you you have a work ethic that is is sort of daunting and i and and don't you do you judge comics by their work ethic no no no i judge them by the the elegance of their structure

so when did you start like when you when you watch Klein did you meet Klein when you were a teenager no no I was I was working a number of years we finally met so when you started doing it um you started at the strip yeah and uh Catcher Rising Star was the very first place I went and And then we couldn't get on stage there. And then the strip opened up and we were able to get on stage. What year was, so 70 what? 75, 76. Is when Catch opened?

Catch opened 73, I think. The improv, I think, 66. Yeah, the improv was, they did a variety show for type of thing. So you're like sort of the second wave. So like, yeah, second wave. Right.

So like Richard Lewis and those guys are above you. You're the one after them. So you're all Larry David Brenner. Bob Shaw saw me once at the old improv before it closed. And he said, that's funny stuff. I'll let you know how it works. One of the most powerful comics I've ever seen. Still Bob Shaw, Bob Shaw in his moment was a brutally funny guy.

He would tear the wallpaper off the couch. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. I think he's still around i mean he was right he wrote for us on the series for a couple years oh yeah yeah because he's very good friend of larry david's right and then uncle dirty was hanging around sure bobby altman bob altman and uh yeah i mean so you couldn't get on a catch originally. What was the way, how did it work back then? Was Lucian at the strip yet? Lucian was there, yes. But I was there very early. They opened in June.

I got in there in July and I was emceeing by December of that year. I had only been in the business for real like four months and they made me an emcee, which was $25 a night. And I got three nights and that was it. I turned in my waiter's apron and that was it. You were a waiter? You were a waiter before? I was a waiter at Brew Burger on 3rd and 47th from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m.

Right. Every day. And that was good for about $16, $17 a day. I was living on that. But you weren't living in the city? You were still at home? I was living in the city, yeah, on 81st and Columbus. In like a box?

Yeah, in a box. Just by yourself, though? By myself. 17 feet square box. And how old are you? What are you, 20 then? 21. And your folks are okay with it?

They're excited? You're living in the city? Didn't seem very interested. No. The benign neglect that my parents gave me was the greatest blessing of my life. When did that start? Day one. Yeah, your life will live ours. Good luck. My father did love what i was doing he loved it from the beginning or once you get it yeah because of the complete independence of it yeah yeah don't don't go where everybody else goes do your own thing so he never pressured you you never oh no nothing no interesting yeah because i i don't i there was no concern even he was just happy for you

they weren't like you know my mother confessed years later they were a little concerned they never said anything to me yeah yeah imagine i'm 45 when my mother first brings up have you ever thought of getting married that that's when it first comes up that's when it first comes up for her first again yes wow and she's still around right no my mom uh passed about five years ago oh 90 at 99 well see so she saw you got married she saw grandkids she got all the good things yes yes yes so who's it like when you get to uh when you get to the strip so you're like one of the first guys there. Yeah. And what was the name of the guy that owned that place? There were three guys, Richie Tinkin, John McGowan, and Bob Wax. And Lucian was just the guy who worked there?

He was a carpenter designed to build cabinets to hold the t-shirts. That's what Lucian did. That's what Lucian did. And then they kind of made him a manager. And then he stayed there forever. Yeah, forever to the end so this was a great thing for you because so the catch rising star had this what a bigger roster more famous that was a closed society you weren't writing in there you know i was never

going to break into that first of all i wasn't cool enough i wasn't druggy enough i wasn't i wasn't that kind of, you know, that I was never getting in with those guys. Who was there though? Who were you talking about? Kelly Rogers, David say, uh, obviously Belzer. Belzer was the, the, the guy, the guy. Yeah. He was the host, the MC. Yeah. And Rick Newman was a great guy. Always very nice to me. Uh, the, the, the romance of catcherizing star was, was a great guy, always very nice to me.

The romance of Catch a Rising Star was something I still, when I talked to Rock and Quinn and Joyner and guys who were there, George Wallace, we still waxing about the romance of Catch a Rising Star. There was nothing like it. So exciting. Had you ever been there sure i mean he you know lewis they i when i started doing stand-up in new york it was uh 89 and the old catch was still there and you know i just i was too i didn't have the i was too proud to sit around and wait at the bar for him to decide when to put me on, you know, when everybody left. So I kind of focused on the old improv and, you know,

the down like Boston Comedy Club and wherever I could get work. But I had a real problem with Veranda for years because I just felt mistreated and I didn't want to play by his rules. But I'd go up there. But I don't think I really, I don't think I was ever there to feel the vibe of it when it was great yeah it was great in the 70s right and the early 80s but you definitely felt that these guys were like you know it was a different way of life than what you wanted to do

too many drugs just rock and roll i didn't really know about the drugs but i just knew i was not their kind of guy you know I always had I always had notes in my hand oh so you were sort of a nerd oh yeah total nerd yeah really and uh yeah and obsessed with my act I was obsessed with my act and my stuff they were able they didn't work on their acts why what you. Were you able? So you were were you incapable of socializing? Incapable. That's a secret of my success.

You got three people you can talk to and that's it. That's it. You don't need anymore. I didn't even know when I was in high school that there were parties I was not invited to. So you were completely obsessed and introverted and just uncomfortable? No, totally comfortable. I didn't know I was missing out on anything. Really?

No, I did not. I knew there was something going on underneath girls' sweaters. That was it. Of course, yeah. And that's what I was interested in. And as far as the other social world of it, it didn't appeal to me. I didn't like the scapegoating, the hostility, the elitism. I just knew I am not going to navigate any of this.

I didn't like it. I didn't care for it. I was very happy to just watch TV. Be your own guy and not get involved. I just want to watch TV. I want to watch Batman. But it's sort of interesting to me that given that's true, and even when you started and you saw that sort of tone at catch,

like I could see like a guy like you comes in, you're a young guy, you're working really hard, and you got these guys that are boozing it up and right fucking off over there and living that life you know studio 54 is happening elaine's all that shit yeah yeah yeah and you're just like you know i want to do this but somehow or another at the strip you were able to find and appreciate some brotherhood eventually yes Yes. Well, that's where it started for us because we were all new, all together. We were all at the starting line together. Right. So we naturally bonded.

Then it was me and Larry Miller all day, all night. George Wallace, Mark Schiff, Paul Reiser, Carol Leifer, all day, every day. Was Wolfberg your generation? Wolfberg, yeah. He was a generation after me. Oh, okay. Yeah. And, yeah, because Schiff, I've talked to Schiff.

I've talked to Leifer. I've talked to a lot of them. Do you, like, there are so many dudes that, like, because I've seen you talk about in other places where, and I think it's a fairly, I think it's astute and it's real that, you know, we start out with all these people and you don't know what the hell happens to everybody. No, you don't. But you're, I'm sure you're on Facebook. I'm not. Can't you find it on Facebook? Oh, you're not. No, I can't stand. I don't understand. It's too much going on on Facebook.

I mean, like how you find out what happens to people sometimes. I mean, sometimes they just call you. I was surprised, you know, with this, uh, with my girlfriend passing, how many people reached out? I mean, I heard from Dan Vitale called me. Wow, Dan Vitale. He had a mind. Yeah, right? And he's like, he's alright. You know, then out of nowhere, Leno calls me. It's a

very beautiful thing that's happened in light of that. Our entire community reached out. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, who the fuck am I? You know, why? But everybody. It was crazy.

Have we met? Me and you? Who and I actually met? I always felt like I was like I represented something chaotic that you needed to avoid. That's probably true. But why would we have bumped into each other? Catch? No, I was at.

I mean, I was there at the cellar the entire time you were shooting that documentary i mean but you were just starting not really i mean i started in you started in 89 but though you were 10 years still kind of started 88 i started in 88 and i started doing i moved to new york in 89 and you know i was working in boston doing one-night but yeah, I was definitely around. I never got in at the cellar either, by the way, I didn't fit in there. I, she didn't pass me until she saw my HBO half hour in 95, 95. Wow.

But so I was working at the cellar by the time you were there. And I don't think we ever met. Like I knew Colin, I knew all those guys. Right. I know joiner. I know, you know, I know everybody that was around you,ner. I know, you know, I know everybody that was around you. But by the time, you know, I was around, you were kind of out. Right. Well, it's nice to finally meet them. Yeah.

It's nice to meet you, too. Because I had always assumed like because I, you know, I know Papa. I know all those guys. Yeah. You know, and I remember when I was earlier doing when we started the podcast, I remember I was talking to Papa in, I don't know where we were working. We were both working somewhere in different rooms. And I'm like, see if Jerry wants to do it.

But you weren't really doing anything. You were like, why? I think that's what he said. I said, did you ask Jerry? He goes, yeah, I did. He goes, well, what'd he say? He said, did you ask Jerry? He goes, yeah, I did. He goes, well, what'd he say? He said, why? And I appreciated the honesty of that.

But yeah, so that was, that's why we never met because you were in another, you were on another level and not really around much. Right, right. But when you think about that, all those guys because i don't know really how to there there's reasons why people don't make it there's there and there's there's definitely many reasons some of them are personal and some of them are just you know it's not a meritocracy some of it's just timing some of it some people look better than others who the

hell knows but you sort of have to balance the heartbreak of all that when you have you you know, all these people that you know, that you're friends that that struggle forever. And I guess that's what do you attribute that? Like when you look at your own success, do you think it was inevitable or do you think that there was just work or do you think you know what I mean? Well, I was lucky. I'll tell you, like the seminal events, the most seminal event of my career to go, to go back to what we were just talking about. Let's go back to catch a rising star in 1976.

Yeah. And I'd see a guy get on the tonight show. Right. And he had about 35 minutes. Total. You know, the tonight show, which, you know, 35 minutes, that's had about 35 minutes. Total. You know, the tonight show, which,

you know, 35 minutes, that's one strong six minutes clean on the tonight show. Right. Right. That distills down to six. And then he, then he goes on,

does well, goes on again. Not as good. Yeah. It goes on a third time struggles. Never see him again. That was something you noticed. I noticed that as a young man, I went, Oh,

now I see how this works. What you think you have is not what you really have. Right. When they put you under that light in that context. Yeah. Without time with under those constraints. Yeah. So I realized I have to have a way of growing. That's more than just hanging out. bullshitting with other comics. Right. I need, I need a better system than that. And so I set about creating that for myself and believe it or not, I got it from George Burns. Really? Yes. Fred Raker gave me George Burns first book, which was called living it up, or they still love me in Altoona. And I read about him starting in vaudeville and his struggles and his love of the business. But I read about that. He sat and worked every day for at least two hours on jokes, on jokes. Yeah. And which I had never heard of or done. And you didn't know anybody

who was doing that. Didn't know anybody that did that. But everybody had a notebook. No. Yeah. I had notebooks, but nobody sat down and said, you know, I want to do something on, you know,

right. Dogs. Right. You mean like some, they'd sit there and they'd get a thing and they like all of us, you write it down like, Oh, that's a good idea.

But you would sit down and be like, all right, here's a bunch of things. Yeah. I'm'm gonna write on let's really explore this on a piece of paper and then explore it on stage let's do both everybody was just kind of doing it on stage and i think to to this day most people do they just kind of they they catch a hold of an idea they take it on stage and that works for a lot of people. I do it that way. Yeah.

It doesn't, it wasn't enough for me. It wasn't, um, you needed more precision. I wanted to go dig deeper down the hole and I wanted to take my time doing it and then take it on stage and then go back and explore. You know,

it was the back and forth, the stage and the pad and the stage and the pad. And then I found I was coming up with a lot of stuff. And then I started progressing and going past people. And I thought, oh, this is this is my way. So that first seminal moment was realizing that you had to do that. Well, I thought if I'm going to get on The Tonight Show three times a year So that first seminal moment was realizing that you had to do that. Well, I thought if I'm going to get on The Tonight Show three times a year and crush every one of them. Yeah.

This has got to be a bit of a serious endeavor because I loved it so much. And all I wanted was I didn't want to get kicked out. I seen so many people get kicked out. Of The Tonight Show. Yeah. You get on, you do a couple of, and they don't want you anymore. So I didn't want to be in one of those casualties.

So you were like Brenner was more of the way to go. Yes. Right. The guys that were there. He would always say, when I used to see him at Catch all the time, and he would stand on stage, and he would have notes on stage, and he would bang notes on stage and he would bang around on stage yeah but most guys so anyway anyway if you go from that moment to when larry

david and i got the tv series yeah and and you roll a blank sheet of paper into a typewriter i was not intimidated by that because i've been looking at blank sheets of paper for years at that time. You knew how to write the bits. I knew how to write. Yeah. When Jerry and George sit down together at the coffee shop, Larry and I, neither one of us was intimidated by that. Yeah. Nowadays, a comic gets a shot for a network show and they go, well, we have TV writers that will take your humor and put it in TV form. Well, you're finished right there. You're done.

You're tough. I've been that guy a few times. Sure. And I know, and we both could rattle off a list of names. You got to realize you're the best writer in the room. Sure. Eventually that worked out. Not to, you know, I had a series on IFCc but nonetheless i i got that out of my system

why did you stay with that i did four seasons oh yeah and the incentive becomes when there's no real money and it's hard to get people to watch and the network support is limited you know it's sort of it gets to a point where it's like if you can't put more money into the show as the show goes on you know it wasn't even about money for myself it was really like what are we doing here you know what i mean wow i don't think african has a similar experience oh with the one in new york yeah tv tv land yeah yeah yeah exactly it's like you know you were in the heyday you sort of defined that thing right and that and that sort of established the grail that all of us were going after,

the sort of being the center of a sitcom. But, like, I think what you and Ray and a few other people, I mean, that was it for that. I actually, I think my first deal was with your guys at Castle Rock. Oh, really? With Glenn. Glenn Padmeick and i you know yeah it was one of those deals where yeah they i got set up with a writer and i don't even didn't go anywhere it's a million years ago right but you know padnick was funny because it's like you know

yeah we did like by by the time he did your show he didn't give a fuck you know like what does he care it's like you know sure we'll make you whatever you want you know you've made a fortune right right but um yeah i wonder if today i well yeah today i would never even do a tv series if i was a young guy today you just you just have work stand i mean you know and i don't even know what my style would be i probably i don't know if i would be uh uh even know what my style would be i probably i don't know if i would be uh uh cursing on stage if i started today cursing swearing i don't know yeah i mean yeah you don't do it at all really a little bit but that was a that was a choice right you're like i'm not gonna well yeah and then it became a style that i liked because it was so much more difficult but you

did curse for a minute yes in the very beginning yes oh and then it went away even then it bothered me because i felt like well i just gotta laugh because it's i said fuck in there that's the only reason they laughed at that that was a problem you you felt like you were cheating uh yeah well it's just that you didn't you didn't find it you didn't find the gold That was a problem? You felt like you were cheating? Yeah. Well, it's just that you didn't find the gold. I get it, man. But when you started, before you do these long-form pieces, did you do one-liners?

Was there a building process? I mean, I know all your bits kind of have jokes all the way through them, but I mean, at the beginning, before you went digging, to learn how to be funny, you must have just done little jokes. No, I always started off, like when I started talking about cereal, I'm going to talk about everything with cereal. I'm going to talk about the proof of purchase seal. I think you're still talking about cereal.

I'm still talking about it, yeah. I think we're talking about Pop-Tarts now. 65 we got the pop tarts yeah i think the horse has been the steadiest thing uh in my comedy diet for some reason the horses constantly pop up in my act i love the comedy of the horse oh the oh the right your closer the new closer with the stall. Yeah, it's in there too, yeah. There's a horse. Yeah, even the horses stick their head over the... Yeah, there's horse, there's... I think there's... A lot of times there's a bit of a poop reference

at the end of some of the bigger... Yes, yes. But no cursing. No, no. All right, so Larry, he won't talk to me. I don't know why. I see him sometimes. Oh, really? He's nice to me Larry, he won't talk to me. I don't know why. I see him sometimes. Oh, really?

He's nice to me, but he won't talk to me. That's weird. I wonder why. I don't know. I think it's really more about people, like you said, like, do I have to? Is it necessary? Right. But when you met him, so you guys, you were always friends?

Because I remember early on. In comedy, yes, yes. He was a few years ahead of me, a couple years maybe. And we would, anytime we'd bump into each other, from the first word out of our mouth, it was a hilarious, inane conversation. And so when I got this offer from NBC, it wasn't even an offer.

They were just like, if you ever have any ideas, right. You know, we'd be interested in hearing them. And I loved the way Larry and I talked. I said, I want to show that sounds like the way Larry and I talk. And that was it. And that was it. But when you, before you got the show, had you been touring, you were touring, right? So back then it was probably you open for musical acts

what'd you do yeah a lot of that i mean uh comedy clubs were this is you know the mid-80s it was i i rode the comedy boom i was the comedy boom i was the that opened the club whether cleveland or so that's right you you're like're like a defining product of that. Yeah, because I had the Tonight Show and Letterman. I think I was the only guy doing both shows regularly. And you had an hour. I had an hour, yeah. And how long did you ride that first hour?

I mean, the act never stops. Exactly, right. It's a combine. It's a threshing machine. You're just consuming grain and making bales of hay behind you. In terms of the competitiveness of it, were you fueled by any sort of resentment or anger at the comics

who didn't work as hard as you? Towards Mitzi Shore and towards getting fired off of Benson in 81. Or maybe it was 80. So Mitzi, when was the Mitzi? Mitzi Shore was a great motivator of mine. She disliked me instantly because I was very independent. And that is not the Comedy Store model. What year is this?

This is 1980. Wow. You need to be a wounded, broken-winged bird. Or you're not funny. Huh. Yeah. And you're not her kind of person. Because I don't want anybody molding me. I don't want anybody telling me what to do. If you're not a comic, you're not telling me what to do.

Yeah. Or suggesting, you know. And so we immediately disliked each other. Yeah. She was very outspoken about it to my face. And it's funny because what she said to me, she said, you know, you're the kind of person that needs someone to step on you. And I'm going to be that person. And I have to admit,

she was right. I needed that person. She was that person. And it, and it really fueled me. It worked. I never talked to her again. I would never. And to this day, I feel no competition with any other communities i love i i adore my colleagues and i love it but what but let's i mean that's interesting to me though because you know i was a doorman at the store in the late 80s and you know i kind of bought into that trip a bit you know and it kind of formed me though i was fucked up on drugs so like i i don't know you know the place fucked with my head a bit but right but the idea that you had to be a wounded broken bird yeah you said yeah where does that perception come from where did you how did you look at all the people

that she loved no i know i know but you also saying that... I don't fit that pattern. No, I know. But you love those people. Yes, I did. Right. Right. But you didn't feel like it was necessary to be that.

You weren't that. You can't be other than what you are. No, that's true. You can only be what you are. But you disagreed with that idea that you didn't have to be wounded you didn't have to be broken to be funny no of course not funny has nothing to do with anything you know that mark it has nothing to do with anything i think fundamentally it's

not about a type you're not right no i agree i agree but i mean it's like dandelion sport that's just sprinkled out there yeah but but it does serve a purpose i mean people who are who are you know the reason you're funny is that you know it's part of your ability to deflect and to charm i'm gonna stop you at the reason there's no reason no you're funny if you're funny yeah and you love to be funny if you're funny and you love to be funny yeah there you go so okay but so you never you never question the psychology of funny no i reject that entire premise really oh yeah oh yeah look at my face yeah you see that i totally reject that you're funny if you're funny period but you so

there's no why no if there and who and if there is who cares okay so then set that aside okay then and and you know you you you have this okay that's your your ethic around humor and you know finding the joke and drilling down and making the perfect joke. And so because I was trying to figure something out about my feelings about you as a comic and whatnot. And I understand all that, you know, but for you. And this goes along with it, that the only risk that you run on stage, or the risk that you take, the most frightening risk, is that the joke won't work. That like what you have on the line is that. Is that I crafted this thing,

and if it fails, I got to go back and fix it, or I got to figure out why it's not funny. That's it. Or chuck it. Right. Right. So you don't risk any of your personality or your well-being

necessarily or do you i think standing up on stage by myself and saying i'm gonna make you laugh that's a pretty good risk i'll say yeah no but that's what i'm saying okay the average person would say that's a little risky right but does it does it does it just like when you don't do that when it doesn't work out and i noticed a little bit in the old documentary do you beat the shit out of yourself do you you go into a dark place do you like does comedy save you from the darkness jerry uh yes it does okay okay so and and and and it is the darkness. Well, that's it. That's a why. Well, if you if you choose to play the game publicly.

Right. Then then then you're accepting. I'm going to take the hit. And I get it. I get that. And I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to, you know, Michael Richards used to love to tell the story, you know, that, that I, I don't know what native American tribe he was that had comedians, that there were comedians in native American culture. Yeah. And if you decided you wanted to be one of them, the first thing they would do is you had to eat a piece of caca. Yeah. And he, Michael, that's how Michael would tell the story.

And if you could do it, they would accept you into the group. Well, I think that's ultimately, you know, my relationship with your comedy has been difficult for me because, you know, I come from a school where, you know, I improvise and I create bits on stage. I do most of my writing in the moment I've done five or six you know I mean I've done many hours but like ultimately there came a point because of you the last three specials I've done the last two for Netflix and one for epics you know I decided I'm like all right well fuck it I'll I'll I'll do the whole I'll do the work and I'll structure this thing I'm going to I'm going to,

I'm going to make sure all of these jokes are refined to the point where they're, they work perfectly. I know exactly what's happening. There are callbacks within it. And I'm going to see how that feels. As opposed to just be like, Hey man, let's see what, which one's going to drop in to the slot right now. Right. Right. And I got to admit it was, it was rewarding and I'll, and I'll thank you for that. Right. Right. And I got to admit, it was rewarding and I'll thank you for that. Oh, okay.

You're welcome. Well, I think you might find that laughs feel good. You might like that. I like the laughs, but the thing is that I noticed too with you is that I do like the laughs,

but there are moments in a bit that are funny and they might not be the biggest laugh moment, but they're your favorite moment. Yes. And there's these little pieces that don't get quite get the laughter you wanted, but it's your favorite little moment. Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. But I don't, I, I, I'm very anti indulgence of my own. I'm very anti-indulgence of my own. My job is to serve them, to make them really laugh, because that, I think, is the only relevant currency in the end.

Really? Just to laugh? Yeah. Now, if there's something in there deeper than the laugh that you get, which there is in any great joke. Sure. When Rodney tells does the bit of I'm making love with my wife, she has a far away look in her eyes and I say, darling, is there someone else? And she says there must be. I mean, that's as rich as it gets for me you know sure i i always look for meaning and jokes i mean if that's that's the reason i got into comedy is that comedy comedians were able to sort of you know you know make things manageable make things understandable yeah this arm you know big ideas that were threatening i mean they you know to me they were you know powerful people to you. Things are terrifying.

Life is difficult. These guys put it into little packages and it makes it okay. Yeah. I never put anything above the laugh. Self-revelation, opinion, insight, all these things. I would never give those the same, weight them the same as the laugh. But occasionally they'll intertwine. If they want to. I don't worry about that part. If I like the bit and it gets a laugh, I'm doing the bit. Okay, well, so this is the obsessive work of you, of Jerry Seinfeld doing the work, but where do you, you know, what is your sense,

like, if you didn't do comedy, would you be a dark, miserable person? No. No. I wouldn't be as happy i wouldn't because i wouldn't have as much fun right do you i really wanted to have a a life of fun yeah i really that's what i yeah and i thought comedy seemed like the most fun life i could imagine. But are you a spiritual guy? Yes. So you nurture that part of your life as well? Oh, yes. Oh, very much so, yeah.

But not in any conventional terms. No, I get it. But what part? Because I have a hard time wrapping around. How do you define that? So if you have a full spiritual life that you know you you you're comfortable in your heart that that enables you to not seek that that type of uh of uh satisfaction from comedy you know what what do you do well comedy is very spiritually satisfying it's a, you're, you're, you're risking your own personal comfort to make total strangers happy,

make them feel good for just a moment. Right. That's a spiritual act. Okay. And what else do you do? I try and be good to people all the time with, you know, with strangers when I'm driving. Yeah. I try and I'm always trying to be generous to people. And do you have a do you have a practice of any kind? No. Spiritual. No, no, no religion. No thing that you do.

No, I mean, I'm Jewish and we celebrate some of the big ones. Why does everyone why does everyone say that you were a scientologist once i did do a course in scientology in like 75 out here no in new york found it very interesting never never pursued it yeah and uh was there anything in it that changed your brain? Yes. Did you? Yes. An emphasis on ethical behavior. Yeah.

Which I still, which I liked the emphasis on that. Yeah. That was a big thing, I would say, ethical behavior. And did any of this sort of avoiding negative people trip? No. No. Did any of this sort of avoiding negative people trip? No.

So this special, I was surprised how you had the full orchestra. It didn't use them a lot. It was really just for the opening. I know. Yeah. So all of a sudden, there's like a full orchestra, four seconds. Boom. You're out. That's it but did

you like like was that sort of a like because there's this weird thing that you straddle this kind of new stand-up with the old style yes right and you wanted to sort of incorporate yes i wanted to acknowledge that this was what i thought show business was right. This is what I want it to be. Yeah. I want it to be a little formal, um, a little exciting, you know, you know, uh, I just, I just liked the, you know, this is when I fell, this was what I fell in love with as a kid. That's what that's about. Was that the first time you used the orchestra? Yes. Yes. And that, so that was sort of like a kind of an homage to.

Well, I didn't I don't know if I'm going to do that kind of thing again. I don't you know, it was just something I wanted to lay it down. You know, you like you have this set and you really like where it's at. Yeah. And I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm going to be around forever. Right. So I thought, let me lay this down so that it's there. What do you mean this?

You don't think you're going to do another special? Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't do another one unless I thought I could do a better one. Yeah. And by that time, I'll be in my 70s. And I don't know. But I might. Who knows?

Right. But you're never going to stop doing stand-up. Oh, no. Never. No. So isn't that the interesting thing, though, that because of the job we've chosen and the role models we've had,

that we've all watched these guys that we love do it into their 90s if they want to. Yeah, yeah. You talk about Rickles. You love Rickles? Love Rickles. You? Yeah, of course.

Yeah, he had a profound impact on me, but like, but cause I read something you said about, you know, I'm just trying to figure out why, you know, cause I feel like, I don't feel like I'm hiding much on stage, you know, to, you know, for better or for worse. And I feel like, you know, I really put myself out there in terms of my personality and who I am. And that's part of what I do. You know, I feel like, you know, I really put myself out there in terms of my personality and who I am. And that's part of what I do. You know, I don't you know, I don't I'm not hiding much behind jokes. And then I read somewhere that you said about like when people ask you about that kind of thing, like about those kind of, you know, showing yourself or or or, you know, exploring those parts of yourself that are personal that

you don't see that's necessary because you know you look at guys like rickles they didn't do it and they're funny right um there's nothing harder than getting a laugh okay there are other things you can do on stage but that's the hardest thing So if you want to do the hardest thing, that's it. Have you said that before? No. And I totally accept and approve

of people doing whatever the hell you want. I get it. Comedy is when you go to the music store and you buy a guitar, the guy at the cash register doesn't tell you what to do with it. Right. You do whatever you want with it. That's right. So that's what I think about comedy.

Do whatever you want with it. So if that's what you like to do, I'm for that. But I like to do the other thing. That's what I like to do. The funny thing? I like to do the other thing. That's what I like to do. The funny thing? I like the laugh. I like to hear it. I think we all do.

Do you know any comics? I want to hear that laugh. I can't. I love it. Do you know a lot of comics that don't like the laugh? No, I don't know any comics that don't like the laugh but there are comics that will tell you and i'm sure you're one of them that there are other interesting things that you can do and that's who we're going to part ways

i think the laugh is very important but i do i don't mind like a laugh that could be crying there's a fine line between that laugh of like oh god I don't mind like a laugh that could be crying. There's a fine line between that laugh of like, Oh God, I don't mind that laugh. It's a different type of laugh. Yeah. As long as there's a laugh, I don't care what, you know, as long as there's a laugh. All right. So you knew this was going to happen, right? When we talked. Kind of. Well, I mean mean i but but so you do but did you do have a sense of who i am i think so yeah from tom papa he's told me about you tom and i get along yeah but okay all right yeah i mean and i and i understand you know

obviously this is a part of comedy today people i think young people very much expect comedians to tell me what makes you tick you know i guess i mean i definitely like the laugh and i do get good laughs and uh and i've always and i get more laughs now than i used to and i I think there was a growing up process around that. I think that there was a time where, you know, even even in that that album that you have right next to your head right now. I mean, when you look at Lenny Bruce, who, you know, you put into context of a time that he lived in. I mean, you know, there was there was some other intention there. A lot of times the intention was to get a laugh, but sometimes it took a while to get there. Right. You have to sort of decide, you know, how you're going to do that you know and like you said as a comic go ahead do whatever the

fuck you want and people do and it takes a long time to figure out how you're going to own that space but ultimately i do believe what you're saying is true that you should get the laugh as quickly as possible and as often as possible yeah i. I mean, I'm not arguing with you on that. I just think it was interesting to me that when you talk about Don Rickles, I can clearly see, watching Rickles, whether he's just doing jokes or however good his timing is or whatever,

that there are moments there where I'm like, this is a man filled with rage. This is a man filled with rage. I do think we could come up with a number of different words that are in and around rage. Yeah. But an essential element, to be sure, in comedy. Yes. It is essential.

Aggression, confrontation, resentment, irritation. Sure. It's got, they're varietals, like wines. Right, right. You just have to make sure that you're- But you can't not have it. If you don't have it, I don't think you're going to get laughs. If you don't have the-

If you don't have that element. If you're not on the anger spectrum. Somewhere. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Many words, we can apply many words. Okay. No, I anger spectrum. Somewhere. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Many words. We can apply many words.

Okay. No, I like it. To this substance, but it's an essential ingredient. Yes. And I have it too. Yeah, I know. I feel it. See, that's funny.

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to get at it. I took an hour. But I think the greatest use of it is to process it through a last machine. Absolutely. I just I think like there are moments that I've seen that like watching that thing, it was very touching to me. The old comedian doc and also watching, you know, your episode of Comedians in Cars with Gary Shanling. To me, like those two times, you know, in both in very quick interactions, I feel were the only times I really saw who you were in a way is when you interacted with him because it's really touching to me because there was something about him

where he he could really see you yes and you don't have that with a lot of people correct correct and there was just a couple moments there where it was like And you don't have that with a lot of people. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And there was just a couple moments there where it was like, like he's like, he was

one of the guys where I'm sorry, I'm choked up. But, um, like he made you laugh in that way that was deeper than just a laugh. You know, like I could see. Well, I just loved him. I just. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, see, I think I'm attracted to the love underneath yeah yeah you know what i mean like with rickles guys that love rickles nobody says they like rickles right nobody right they love him yeah love him right right i like and rod, you know, who I was friends with. But people love Rodney. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, if Rodney came out and really told us what was going on. You know, it's a different thing. Terrible. It would be terrible.

Yeah. Richard Lewis used to say he called it the heaviness, the depression. Yes, the heaviness. You know, Rodney said as a joke, I'm all right now, but last week I was in rough shape. He was in rough shape. He doesn't need to go any deeper than that. I agree. I, and I, and I think, I do think, I think that's the key right there is that, you know, I think that we kind of landed on it with the spectrum of anger or this,

the spectrum of anger and also the spectrum of sadness that there is something about, you know, the heart underneath the comic, that whatever it is, you know, he has to be funny. And, and, you know, and if he wasn't funny, who knows what we'd get, you know and if he wasn't funny who knows what we'd get you know well that's the beauty of it really yeah yeah you take that risk yeah yeah by yourself by yourself it's very you know it's the best you know you you you did you did your show i did my show yeah it's one thing when you're with other people up there but when you're by yourself it's the best that's a different thing it's it's like it took me years

to sort of like you know that moment where for me like the greatest thing about about doing stand-up sometimes it's just that when you're sitting there waiting to go on or when you walk down the hallway of the theater or when you walk past the kitchen you know like this is show business you know i'm i'm walking through past through this kitchen you know this shitty dressing room but that moment where you realize and i don't know when you first realized it that part of you lives up there like you know when you get on stage whatever you're afraid of early on or whatever your challenges are you know once you got your act together that you you can't wait to get out there because that's where you live. That's your place.

And that's an amazing moment to feel that. Did you always have that or do you have it now? Do you know what I'm talking about? That that's my place? Well, just that part of you lives up there. That's the most comfortable you're going to be. No. No. No. No.

No. I mean, sometimes my manager and I will always have these moments where he'll talk about how great the set was. And he says, did you realize? And I go, no,

I'm busy. Yeah. Really? But you know, you know, you're getting laughs. So you realize it yes but i'm not thinking about it i'm just trying to make them bigger right right oh wow you know it's better

no joy up there uh moment moment little moments little moments it's kind of like i always say it's like if you if you talk to a guy that flies an F-16 and you ask him, you know, what do the clouds look like? Yeah. Like, I'm busy, you know. I'm not really looking at the clouds. I appreciate that they're beautiful, but I'm busy. But you're busy. That's my attitude on stage.

I got to do this a certain way. I want this to come out a certain way. And when it does, it feels good. Yes. Okay. Good. Yes. I'm happy.

And more, it feels not bad. I don't want to feel bad when I come off. And I do a lot, you know. You feel bad? I don't feel, I feel that's not the show I wanted tonight to be. Not good enough. Well, I think that's another thing I might show i wanted tonight to be not good enough well i think that's another thing i might have learned from you or for somebody just that that that feeling or that the reality of not doing well is part of the job and it might not necessarily have that you know

i'm not i don't uh i don't really subscribe to the idea that there are no uh uh bad audiences um there are bad audiences. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. But it's just part of the job. Yeah. Well, your job is to take them from wherever they are to a slightly better place. Slightly. If you can.

All right, man. Well, it was great talking to you. Great talking to you. I really love the show. You do an amazing job. And I'd love to come back anytime. I think we could do a lot of this. Yeah. I, I, I, I think there's, I love to talk about, you know, I'm one of the guys that, you know, I love to take it apart. Yeah. But, but, but there's like, there's a line you won't go back. Like there,

you definitely have pretty strong opinions about certain things yeah you know i have strong opinions about everything right so we can take it apart but only to a certain degree because you'll stop once it's apart right like you know you want to take the parts apart yes look at that i thought we were going to go deep you know what do you got and Ask me a tough question. There's no tough questions. I think the one thing that I think is interesting, but I think we kind of worked around it was just that, you know, the idea that if you're funny, you're just funny and that's it, that it doesn't run deeper than that. But I think the more we talk about it, that if you're funny, there seem, you can't be funny without a certain amount of

something on the anger of uh something on the anger spectrum or something on you know the spectrum yeah yeah but all of those things are are minor or minors the major is the ball coming off the bat is the ball coming off the bat yeah that's what i care about that's what live for. That's what I think is the gift. Right. Well, how do you decide? Do you you challenge yourself to, you know, kind of take all these things apart and to really get into the minutia of stuff and and write the shit out of stuff? But, you know, how do you know how do you decide what you what isn't funny? What when do you I mean, outside of just saying, like, I can't make that funny. Are there things that you don't even want to try to make funny yeah because they're easy or i've seen

things like that or it's that's not challenging or it's not original enough it's not uh um you want to dig out something that nobody's really saw but you do that with with with stuff that's you don't do that with like death you don't do that with like death. You don't do that with like, you know, heartbreak. I do. I do have some stuff like that. That, you know, when you're born, it's, you know, two people walk in, three come out. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

When I die, it's one less people. Yeah. It's a different number of people. You're going back to the same room. Right. So that's a death joke. Yeah. But it gets a solid laugh, so I'm allowed to do it. Right. Got it.

It's got to pay its way. It's good. It's good. Yeah, that was heavy. I like that one, actually, that there's a different number of people. Yeah, so that's fun for me. Right. Okay, I'm going to talk about death, and that was challenging to get a laugh big enough for me to keep that me. Right. You know, okay, I'm going to talk about death, but you know, and that was challenging

to get a laugh big enough for me to keep that in. Yeah. You know. Where do you work out the sets now? I thought that was interesting. I love Gotham on 23rd. Oh yeah.

Chris's place. Yeah. So you'll just do what, you know, a week or a residency once, twice a week for a month or two. I just drive by and go in.

But when you're building an hour, you don't go- I don't build hours. No more? No. You just put it together later. You're like, oh, okay, I got enough. No, it's constant. No, no, I get it.

I get it. But if you got to do a big room where you got to do an hour, you got to have an hour. That's all I do. Yeah. Right. But I'm saying when you're putting it together you do it in smaller chunks is what i'm trying to establish no never i never i never don't have it i see i come from the the 70s when you have an act yeah no i i know i get there's an

ever-evolving act i've done six or seven hours but i'm just saying that you got to work out somewhere you're not gonna you don't you don't work out new material, you know, for the first time at the, you know, in Atlantic city or whatever. No, I do not. Right. You do that at Gotham. Yeah. In like 15, 20 minute chunks. Right.

Got it. That's all. I'm not fighting with you. I'm glad we talked. It makes me feel better. Good. And best of luck to you. Thank you. I hope you're okay. I'm okay.

I'm okay. And I feel like you're going to be okay. Thank you. We're going to be okay. Well, you know what? I think we'll all be okay. I hope so. And next time we see each other, we know each other now.

Yeah, that'll be nice. Okay, buddy. Thanks, man. All right, man. Thanks, Mark. Okay, that was me and Jerry. That's how it went. That's how we are.

And folks, the virus is still out there. Wear your fucking masks. Don't be a dum-dum. Just look at the numbers. Use common sense. Just because other people aren't doesn't mean that I know it's uncomfortable. But really, really, what is this, fucking high school? Wear your fucking mask

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