WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1138 - Helen Mirren

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

Dame Helen Mirren is a winner of the Oscar, the Tony, the Emmy, and the BAFTA, and is in the middle of an illustrious career in which she played the great roles of Shakespeare, Catherine the Great and Queen Elizabeth, to name a few. And yet she still begged to be cast in the Fast and Furious franchise. Helen tells Marc why she finds film acting powerful, challenging, and uniquely fulfilling compared to her stage work. They also talk about her breakthrough on Prime Suspect, her job at an amusement park, and bears. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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what the fuck nicks what's happening i am mark maron This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. It's been okay the last few days. I don't know how up to speed those of you tuning in are with where I'm at, but I'm within the grief tunnel. It's coming up on two months, on Saturday, since Lynn Shelton passed away. And something is changing. How are you guys? Look, I'm not going to make a life out of grief, but I seem to be in it and monitoring it and feeling the feelings.

But I don't want to neglect you guys. I don't want to forget to tell you that on the show today, Helen Mirren is here. Oscar, Emmy, BAFTA, and Tony Award winning actress. The amazing Helen Mirren. The stunning and profoundly talented Helen Mirren. She's on this HBO thing, this Catherine the Great limited series. But she's been in a lot of stuff. And I actually watched her.

I was kind of going through her stuff. And I realized she was in an old movie that i saw when it came out at the art house in albuquerque new mexico it was called long good friday it was a a relatively contemporary i guess it was a probably the early 80s a modern english gangster movie with bob hoskins and she's the female lead and she's uh great. But Hoskins, just to work with that guy. What an animal, man. Just fierce, fucking seething presence. There aren't that many seething presences.

But I was lucky. I was fortunate. It was on the Criterion channel, which I watch. And I'm going to watch Lolaola and that completes the trilogy of whatever that was veronica voss the marriage of maria braun and lola the fassbender movies i didn't know it was a trilogy but uh i would talk to my buddy tracy letts yeah i'll drop a couple names he's been very nice to me during this time of sadness. Talking me through it.

Experienced something similar in his life. Been very helpful in my call tonight even. Staying in touch with the people. That's the hard stuff. The hard part about the grieving is that, you know, it's the aloneness a bit. But like, you know, Tom Sharpling came over for dinner the other night and I've been hiking with my pal Al Madrigal going up the hill, talking about stuff,

gossiping a little bit. Things get limited, you know, and everybody's not doing much. The gossip and the, you know, what you can talk about. There's not a lot of fresh news around. And, you know, in terms of the macro, that's never good anymore. It's fucking paralyzing out here.

Just managing the existential despair and terror of whatever the fuck is happening. And just watching people snap. It's amazing the consistency of these belligerent, ignorant dum-dums who just refuse to take care of themselves or others by really simply wearing a dumb mask indoors so they don't get sick and they don't get others sick with this thing escalating. But some of these people, they're going to die on this hill, man. This was the freedom fight that they were going to fight this mass business.

And when they lose it. I've watched three or four videos of women in supermarkets and Target stores, and I just watched one of a guy. I've watched two of a guy. I've watched two of a guy. It is literally like watching, and I don't have children, but I'm saying I'm thinking a three-year-old, a three- to five-year-old temper tantrum in the body of a grown person ranting and raving about, it usually doesn't even make sense. It's just like something snaps in their head

and it has to do with a mask and it represents a lot of things. Freedom, God, you know, didn't intend it. It's just a confusion of conspiratorial garbage and right-wing talking points and some Christian end times business just mashed up in sort of just kind of blurts. And usually there's a physical activity, a childish physical activity, throwing groceries on the floor, taking things off a rack. taking things off a rack something snaps inside these people and i think you really get to see who they are emotionally uh at the core of whatever ideological insanity they've allowed

their brain to be programmed with and it's like three three to five years old and i would imagine intellectually some of them close to that as well and And I don't want to be condescending, but just watch those things. This is not grown-up behavior. It's just, it's like, you know, just stubborn children being told to do something healthy and just like, no, no, no.

Very exciting. I acknowledged, no, no. Very exciting. I acknowledged, oddly, but I acknowledged the passing of Ronnie and Donnie Galleon, I believe is how you say their last name. Ronnie and Donnie Galleon of Beaver Creek, Ohio. say their last name ronnie and donnie gallion of beaver creek ohio the uh the the oldest the longest surviving conjoined twins um i guess they died july 4th i did not know it was that many days ago and the reason i i i brought attention to it is they I wouldn't say they traumatized me because I bought the ticket. And I think expanded my brain, but blew a hole in it for sure. When I was younger, some of you know this.

I had a mild obsession with the circus or the sideshow, the midway sideshow the the circus freaks as they were called human anomalies as joel peter whitkin would call them but i couldn't understand my fascination with them i had books about them and i think it was really just that they were terminally and you know tragically some of them unique by birth, some by choice, but the ones by birth were more fascinating to me, yet they figured out a way to exist. And I think it spoke to something inside me that I felt so uncomfortable that going to the New Mexico State Fair, nervously buying a ticket to walk up a ramp to a viewing window in a trailer to look at ronnie and donnie sitting in there just watching television with their uh their their flesh of conjoinment

and whatever organs they shared exposed that uh they seemed comfortable they were watching television they uh they didn't seem to mind us looking at them, but they didn't put on a show. They were just there, and it was inspiring to me. I mean, outside of the fact that they were, I don't know what their life looked like, but in the trailer, they seemed comfortable, and it was quite a decent racket. They didn't have to do much. I mean, they were already conjoined. I mean, I guess they could do more, but they really didn't put a lot of effort mean they were already conjoined i mean i guess they could

do more but they really didn't put a lot of effort into it they were just sitting there i think maybe one of them was having a snack watching television but the way they moved and the way they sort of it was just i think it made me feel better that there was a place in the world for everybody. And oddly, my place was on stage as well. I was not in a trailer. I don't have a conjoined twin, but I have a sort of hidden emotional obesity that I stuffed down.

And in another note, I noticed that there was a tweet tweet that uh my producer brendan mcdonald forwarded me that it says japan's theme parks have banned screaming on roller coasters because it spreads coronavirus and quote please scream inside your heart unquote and i i'm familiar with that. You want to know what screaming inside your heart sounds like? I'm doing it now. I'm doing it most of the time. I've mastered it. Did you hear it?

No, right? It's happening. I'm screaming inside my heart right now every morning i get up and uh i actually pray to nothing for a little peace of mind and a little guidance pray to nothing i pray to no one i pray to uh to uh to humble myself and and and let go of the chains and pain in my heart, to stop screaming in my heart for a minute or two, and ground myself in something larger that remains unidentified, not paying any lip service to any sort of higher power.

It's just a way of humbling and trying to kind of like try to get a valve, release valve on the sadness. And then I spend a couple minutes looking at a picture of me and Lynn that she seemed to like. And then I deal with my cats.

Monkey hanging on, getting frail. But I think, you know, I don't know, he seems okay. The best thing that can happen, I think, at this point is that he just dies in his sleep. Buster's fat, getting fat. I don't know if he's sick, too. He seems to run

around like he's a kitten but he's fat and he gets himself out of breath and he beats up on fucking monkey but i seem to have some acceptance around that i'm no longer seeing you know monkeys aging and near deathness as part of some kind of heartbreaking continuum that i i that has been you know imposed upon me that i've been drawn into by um by a death and dying um and again i want to thank everybody for reaching out still very happy that you're doing that so helen mirren was recently, as I said earlier, in the HBO limited series, Catherine the Great. You can watch that now, right now on all HBO streaming and on demand platforms. She's also in the upcoming The One and Only Ivan, which will be on Disney Plus next month.

And this is me and Helen Mirren coming right up. influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I feel like as time goes on, because of texting, I'm losing pronouns. I no longer use a lot of words that I should use to communicate when I write. I've kind of gone the opposite direction. I think I've become very formal, full stops, you know,

capital letters on texting. Yeah, totally. Oh, even more on texting, texting. I'm like very rigid. Well,

that's a, that must be a real, a real pleasure for the people who receive your texts. And it's probably boring. They go, Oh God, you know, get on with it.

Yeah. Don't text her it'll be forever you'll just get yeah exactly an entire novel where are you i mean we're in tahoe actually oh oh that's close brilliantly and luckily uh yes we we just finished building a house here we just made the move from la literally six months before the lockdown happened. Oh. So, oh my God, we got locked down in the most beautiful, one of the most beautiful places. So you're right on the lake, kind of? Not right on, but I can see it from here, you know.

Oh, that's pretty. The trees. Are you happy? It's really pretty. And, you know, incredible air and just endless entertainment by wildlife, you know. What do you see? Chipmunks and golden mantles and squirrels and about 10 different kinds of birds. I saw a bear the other day.

A great big black bear came by and stole all my bird food. Oh, really? I went out and I said, bad bear, naughty bear, very naughty bear. And he looked at me and lumbered off. He was a big black bear. That didn't scare him too quickly? Well, funnily enough, you know, I was just reading a book, a little pamphlet about, you know, wildlife up here. here and they said and they were saying what to do if you encounter a bear and it's looking aggressively at you and hunching its back and looking like it's about to charge yeah and they said you make yourself look as big as possible if if you can grab a stick make yourself look

big and then it literally said and then shout bad bear bad bear so i can't wait to meet a bear and shout bad bear at it it seems like something that you might have done on stage before well there is a there is a um uh there is of course, that famous stage instruction in Shakespeare, which is exit followed by a bear. Right. Exactly. There's no enter a bear. He doesn't say enter a bear or the bear doesn't take part in the scene. It's just this stage direction exit pursued by a bear. Rapidly, that means.

Well, I mean, you've dealt with like, it's funny because I feel like I've known you my whole life because I've seen you in things. But like for some reason, what I went back and watched the other night, speaking of, you know, acting with bears, is that I watched Long Good Friday. Oh, yes. Yes. My dear little bear. Yes. And he little bear. Yes. And he like Bob. Right.

But that scene where you have to calm him down and tell him to get hold of himself. I mean, that that was like trying to stop a bear. Yes, it's true. And Bob Bob had this incredible ability to sort of look like he was like a kettle about to explode or something, you know, something you put in the microwave and you should have taken the lid off, but it's just about to completely explode. He was brilliant at communicating that sort of explosive thing. It's sort of a great movie.

I had seen it when it came out when I was in high school, and I remember it being sort of a bleak movie. That ending is a little rugged. Fabulous. Yes. Right? Pierce Brosnan. Right.

The Irish guy. Yeah. No lines. A young Pierce Brosnan. Yeah. It was an iconic movie at the time. Many sort of British gangster movies followed on after that one.

But that really was a trailblazer in the sense of the sort of British gangster movies. Brilliantly written by Barry O'Keefe, who very sadly very recently died. But it was an amazing piece of literature.

And you know what's amazing in that movie too, if you know London, is what was being proposed in that movie, which was the development of the East End, the, you know, the Thames, down at the Thames on the East side of London is exactly what happened. You know, Canary Wharf was built. Right. And all of those flats, millions of flats were built.

Apartments were built along down there. That whole area has become completely developed exactly in the way that Longwood Friday was talking about. So the landscape that we shot on when we made that movie in Eastern London has changed completely. Of course. If you go down there now, it's a completely different view. Do you keep a place there?

Are you connected to London? Yes. Yes, and actually that's where I live. Oh, really? Down in Wapping, yes. Yeah. Just a few yards from where we shot a lot of Long Good Friday, actually. What part of London did you grow up in?

Well, actually I didn't grow up in London. I was born in London. And then you went. So I'm a Londoner. But we moved out to a sort of dormitory town. I explain it to Americans by saying I grew up in Coney Island but because that was the kind of place south end on sea is down on the Thames estuary it's where the east enders traditionally would go for a you know a fun weekend which consisted of

eating fish and chips or cockles or winkles, getting drunk, having a fight, throwing up and going home. That was slightly the tradition in the 50s. Was there a roller coaster? Any roller coasters? Oh, there was roller coasters. I used to work in the amusement park called the Curzel. You did? I did. Yes. I blagged. Do you know what blagging is? No, you're going to tell me though. I think. Blagging is when you sort of shout something incomprehensible out to

someone just to get their attention and to bring them over to your store. You know, we have a, we have a, we have a president that's doing that every day. Absolutely. He,

he belongs in an amusement park. Yeah. He's one of the greatest, greatest blaggers of our lifetime. Yes. Absolutely. He belongs in an amusement park. Yeah, he's one of the greatest blaggers of our lifetime. Yes, yes. He has afforded a lot of laughs, I have to say. And a lot of fear. Yeah, monster. Quite a few laughs, too. So you used to work at what amusements did you work at?

Where did you work? Well, I worked on the dart stall when I worked there. So my job was to get people over just to get their money to play darts and give them a horrible little toy, you know, thing. Why'd you end up there? Why did your family live there? Your parents? Well, you know, because my parents worked in the east end um they

they met in the east and my dad actually used to many before he was a musician but he couldn't make uh it was very difficult to make money at that and as a very young man um he worked for a jewish tailor and the east end was traditionally at that period was where the Jewish community, the immigrant Jewish community lived in the East End. So there was a wonderful old tradition of Jewish delicatessens and Jewish businesses in the East End. And one of those businesses was tailoring. And my dad actually worked for Jewish tailor in the East End. And my mom worked for my mom was an East Ender. She came from West Ham.

And was, were they mostly, because your father immigrated as well, right? My father was Russian, born in Russia. Were most of the Jews, were the Jews mostly Russian or Polish or did he? The Jews were, yes. A lot of them were Eastern European Jewish people, of course, absolutely. You know, escaping from the ghettos of Poland and Russia. So I wonder, did your father speak Yiddish or Polish? No, my father wasn't Jewish. My father was a white Russian.

But he was working for him, so I thought maybe they were. Yeah, that's true. I bet he picked up a few Jewish words, yes, absolutely. But he spoke Russian, huh? He spoke Russian, yes. Did you speak russian language yes no sadly not i think my father was very um he came at the age of two and at that time the revolution was so entrenched that there wasn't any possibility of ever going back so um he very

much wanted to assimilate. So as soon as he could, he changed our name from Miranoff, which was my original name, to Miran. And we were not brought up speaking Russian. Your father, what was his instrument? The viola. He was a musician. Yeah.

Was he good? Yes, he was. One of my earliest memories. Well, I don't know if he was good. I have no idea. I think that he gave it up because he realized he was never going to be a sort of, you know, star soloist. Yeah. He was always going to be in the orchestra sort of thing.

And also, of course, the war, the Second World War intervened and stopped his musical career completely. But my first memories are of him playing the viola, me waking up in the morning and hearing him practicing playing the viola. So when the war came, do you remember? I mean, when was that? Because I've talked to some people. No, I was born after the end of the war came, do you remember? I mean, when was that? Because I've talked to some people. No, I was born after the end of the war. So I don't. So it's not in your memory. Not in my memory, no. But, you know, I asked my mom a lot about it.

I couldn't imagine what it must have been like to have bombs. Yeah, just rubble. Every night. Do you have arms? Yeah, just rubble. I mean. Every night. And my dad worked as an ambulance driver in the war, which was a very difficult emotion. It must have been physically very difficult.

He couldn't join the services. He wanted to join the services, but he had some medical condition, maybe a bone spur. I think it was a bit more serious than that. And he wasn't allowed to join the military. So instead, he drove an ambulance throughout the war in London through the Blitz. And so that means pulling children out of rubble, terrible, terrible sights you must have seen. I know. I can't.

It's really astounding to me when you talk about, when any of us talk about or know people that have done these sort of almost unbelievable, horrific jobs or tasks, and they just do it. And just by knowing what we go through in the modern world or what we see on TV or the limited amount of exposure we have to that kind of trauma and horror, I mean, just a little bit of it will blow your mind. Absolutely. To live in it. I mean, I can't imagine what they carry with them. I think it's really hard. And it's hard for my generation to comprehend what my parents' generation went through.

Yeah. You know, a depression before the Second World War, the rise of fascism, the coming of the Second World War, the endurance of the Second World War, the realization of what Stalin was doing in Russia and the realization of the Holocaust. Right. the realization of the Holocaust, to have to psychologically deal with all of those things and kind of carry on life and have children. I was born at the end of the Second World War, after the end of the Second World War, but I was conceived during the Second World War when all of this was going down. Well, I can understand that i mean like you know what what else are you gonna do yeah in terms of yes i guess in terms of human contact

right but the thought of bringing children i know this world do you know what i mean i don't know how people i don't know how people do it now i mean i don't know because all those things that you're talking about you know sadly we're on the precipice of a generation seeing similar things, you know, in the world. Yes, we are. It's true. Absolutely. And like I have friends who are younger than me. I was never wired for children. I like them, but I'm much too panicky and selfish to deal with it. So I don't have it. Me too. count me in. I mean, I thank God I have stepchildren.

I'm incredibly grateful for the mothers of the stepchildren who've gone through all of that and just given me the pleasure of having stepchildren. I'm with you, Mark. I don't know how people do it. I mean, it's like, it's seemingly natural. And it's really not that I have anything against kids. it's like, it's seemingly natural. And it's really not that I have anything against kids. It's just like, if you give me two minutes, I can get anxiety and panic about the children I don't have, like about the children I might've had, you know, just thinking about it overwhelms me with, I can't do it. I can't. Do you have nieces and nephews? I do. I got a few. That's nice, isn't it? That's a nice relationship know you can be the naughty uncle right i bet you are the naughty uncle i am i i you know the one they come to when they uh they they they're in trouble of some kind a little bit yeah exactly the one they can talk to

one of the first things i did for my nephew i gave him a leather jacket oh good oh good a really cool biker jacket yeah i gave it to him was new my sister was absolutely horrified and i said now this is what you do with the leather jacket and i took it i threw it on the ground and i jumped on it got it all messy my sister was going don't do that with a new jacket but that's the sort of thing you can do when you're yeah i i yeah i don't see him enough but uh you know i'm okay i there's never a day that goes by where I regret not having children. No, me neither. I have to say I'm with you. So your father, though, like, you know, you're saying about, you know, really thinking about that generation.

I mean, did you sense what were his politics like? What did he carry with him after that or through that? Well, my dad, you know, he came from sort of aristocratic, you know, minor aristocratic, not aristocratic, but posh upper class. Yeah. Russian background. Oh, yeah. His mother, his mother was a countess. Oh, wow. He was born on the Russian estates that were then taken by the Bolsheviks. You know, he was a young man in London before watching the rise of fascism and as so many young people were it's the original Antifa group who were fighting against the rise of fascism in London and there was a famous march in East London by Mosley, Oswald Mosley who was the sort of English fascist who wanted England to combine with Germany, Hitler and become a fascist nation basically. And they had their

black shirts, I think they were walking through the Jewish quarter of the East End. And my father went on the so-called riot or the peaceful demonstration against this particular, this fascist march. So his politics were left-wing as a young man. I think any young, intelligent person in the 1930s was left-wing. It was the rise of unions, the rise of the concept of sort of a world where people without money could get an education, for example. So that's what you grew up in.

The rise of the wealth. So I grew up in that sort of world, absolutely. So he was a musician and a leftist and an intellectual and somebody who was engaged politically. But also, my mum was a working-class girl, intelligent, left school at 14, the 13th of 14 children. Oh, my God.

Absolutely. Talking about having children. Can you imagine? That must have been what did it. I think at that point, you just don't really think about it anymore, probably. I about having children. Can you imagine? That must have been what did it. I think at that point, you just don't really think about it anymore, probably. I don't know. It's like that scene in the Monty Pythons, The Meaning of Life, where Terry Jones is washing the dishes and a baby just plops out from under the skin. Yes, exactly.

Yes, exactly. That must be my grandmother on my mom's side. Right. No, she was working class, exactly. That must be my grandmother on my mum's side. No, she was working class, exactly. And economically, financially, we were very working class in the sense... And my dad finished up being a taxi driver, in fact. He did the knowledge. And do you know what the knowledge is?

No. Doing the knowledge is what London cabbies have to do to become a licensed black cab driver in london it sounds very uh it sounds like an important thing it isn't well what they do is they they learn every basically every street in london they have to learn literally the name of and where every street in london do they still yes they still do they still do the knowledge um i mean gps now maybe eventually the knowledge will disappear but it still is in existence and then when they do the test they say okay it's four

o'clock 4 30 in the afternoon right you have to get from this street in north london to this street in south london describe me your route and so the knowledge is that you have to say okay i turn left on st james's street and then i turn right on thursday street and you have to take into consideration the traffic the traffic traffic, exactly. Oh, so. So that's the knowledge. And when you pass that, then you get a, that's why London cabbies are amazing. Yeah. You know, I really advise anyone, you know, they're more money now, but they are, London cabbies are incredible. I don't think I've been educated that well in anything that I do.

Yeah, you go on instinct. That's pretty good as well. You know, that works. Well, I guess like what I was getting at is that there was at least an environment where it seems like they were encouraging of the arts, I'm assuming. They were. I mean, we couldn't financially. I didn't go to, we didn't have television.

We didn't have, we didn't go to the cinema, actually. No? we didn't go to the cinema actually no go to the theater well no uh financially literally we couldn't afford well how did you decide to be uh to pursue acting well i'll tell you what happened i saw a an amateur production of hamlet this the one time my mom apart from this i'd only ever seen shows at the end of the pier, which I loved. What kind of shows were those? Oh, you know, show you have girls come on dancing. Absolutely. He wanted to be one of those girls.

And then the comedian came on and he may be literally fall off my seat with laughing. It was a variety show. End of the pier variety show. And that was my first experience of the theater. And I remember it to this day. Who was the comedian? I absolutely loved it. He was a guy called Terry Scott.

He was an English comedian. Look him up when we finish. Okay. Terry Scott. Okay. S-C-O-T-T. Got it. And he was the guy who was at the end of the pier when I saw

my first theater why isn't that the name of a play the end of the pier somebody should write that show yes yes they should and I love what it I what I love what it means because I'm I would never like that and that was something people knew that there was there was a show at the end of the pier that's where you see. Yeah. I love it. And my hometown was famous. Well,

it wasn't famous at all for this, but it, it, it does have the long, it, it has the longest pier in the world. It does have the longest pier in the world. It's a,

it's a mile and a quarter long and you have to take a little train out. Oh, is it still there? I think it, yes, it is still there. So you see this comedian, you see the dancers, and do they do sketches too? I'm sure they did sketches. They did a bit of boring, warbling singing.

That never appealed to me. But you knew you wanted to be on stage. Yeah, and then I saw an amateur production of Hamlet by the South End Shakespeare Society. And that was really what, that just completely blew me away. Not because, it was a terrible production, I'm sure. I do remember their tights all being sort of wrinkly around their ankles. But the story, I was just so blown away by the story. And I mean, can you imagine what,

that's why I don't think Shakespeare should be taught in schools. Can you imagine watching Shakespeare for the first time when you're about 13 or 14 and you don't know what happens? You don't know that Ophelia goes mad and dies. You don't know that Hamlet's going to come back. You don't know that they're all going to die.

You have no idea of the story. So you watch it like a thriller because it is an incredible thriller. Yeah, yeah. And to have that thriller of watching, going, oh, my God, what's going to happen next? of watching going, oh my God, what's going to happen next with that poetry, with that, those incredible conceptions into, you know, thoughts in your mind at the same time. I mean, and that was sort of my experience. Wow. Cause like I've been like, I've been sort of this like ignoramus on my show over the years in terms of how I've been sort of unable to engage with

Shakespeare in the way that that a lot of people do and I've told Shakespearean actors this and like Ian McKellen said yeah I know and very well yeah yeah he sat across from me and did Shakespeare to my face of course he did did. Of course he did. He would. It was that monologue about immigrants, I think, is it from the Thomas More? It wasn't. Yes, I've heard him do that speech, actually.

Because it must have been around the time he was doing his one-man show, probably, was it? But that's wonderful. But he just, like, and it connected with me because my problem is maybe it's as an american or maybe just as a person you know because i i enjoy being engaged but i do get a little lost with the language and it becomes difficult for me to to sort of follow the story yeah no totally the be very, very, it is very difficult. But with a great production and great actors, that clarifies an awful lot of it. So that's what happened to you at you were 13. And you were just, you know, your mind was blown.

by the story as much as anything. It's a fabulous world. It was so different from my boring little, you know, little dormitory town I felt that I was living in, you know, suburban street and all the rest of it. And to see, so that engaged my imagination. And I became quite obsessed at that point with, not so much with the, certainly not with the intellectual self of Shakespeare,

but just the stories and the characters. And you'd already wanted to do, you wanted to be on stage. You knew that. I didn't know that, no. But I knew I wanted to imaginatively live in these other worlds. Oh, so this was before the end of the pier thing?

No, after the end of the pier thing. So you got both sides. You've got the burlesque and then you got Hamlet. Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of me in a nutshell, actually. There you go. There you go. Figured out the source of your being.

Yeah, yeah. Figured out the source of your being. Yeah. So then how do you slowly engage with the process of becoming a theater person? Of becoming an actor. Well, I went to a teacher's training college because I couldn't afford to go to drama school. But there was a great... What is that? A teacher's training college where you learn to be a teacher. Oh, you're going to learn to be a teacher. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. But I was a great, or a teacher's training college where you learn to be a teacher. Oh, you're going to learn to be a teacher. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was a hopeless teacher. I mean, I was so hopeless, useless. Do you want to be a mother? Do you want to be a teacher? It's good. No. You know your limitations. I didn't want to be a teacher. But there was this great organization called the National Youth Theater in Britain that allowed kids who didn't come

from a financially supportive background could go and in your summer holidays, you went and did theatre. Yeah. And that sort of launched me. I did Cleopatra in Antony and Cleopatra with that organisation. And the press would come. that was a great thing that

you know the the critics from the newspapers right so so they they gave me a good press and from that moment on i as soon as i left college i went i became a um i went to the royal shakespeare company so that's where you actually trained because you just had a knack you had a knack for it is that what you would say you know it's like any it's like a lot of jobs isn't it really you can't really train what you can do is practice um training is and i you can practice and and be guided in your practice and i'm sure that's the same with music and with art painting right so the essential so the ideas of of practice then are how do i connect you know this text to who i am or to what's necessary yeah exactly convincing

it exactly and and i was lucky that i was being in a sense being paid not very much but being paid to practice and to learn with the raw shakespeare company but i was kind of in at the deep end you know i started off boom you know at quite a high level why is that because they you just had you because you were you had a natural gift I guess uh I guess yes and and and also and a drive and the gift is one thing the drive is the most important isn't it don't you think Mark in life you know you see incredibly gifted people wasting their gifts because they don't have the drive and then you see less gifted people with incredible drive and they do better. A lot of times the gifted people who don't have the drive, it's just that they have it.

It's just going into them. They're driving themselves into the wall of their heart. Yes. No, no, absolutely. And it's tragic when you see that happen it is it's devastating it is it is um on the other hand you see another kid you know who just it you know their imagination has been engaged by something and they are just absolutely driven right to do this and and i you know that's that's that's what art is it's

it's the drive but right but it's not like it's interesting because now you know ambition and drive can be applied to different things but the drive you're talking about is is not it's not a career drive it's it's a it's a passion oh no no it's not a career drive at all. Right, it's a passion to be fully immersed in the thing. It's the creative passion, absolutely. Yeah. So who are the people you were working with? Would I know any of them? Who are my contemporaries?

Quite a lot of them have died. Oh, have they? But, well, Mike mike lee the film director i've been watching his movies oh my god yes mike lee was an assistant director um mark rylance was in the i'm sure you know who mark is um he was one of the young actors that i in in my group um that's interesting i didn't know that about mike lee so he was a what was his role in the shape he was an assistant he was an assistant director he was in the directorial world but he was an assistant director and in fact he what we saw him aside from the rsc but in his own you know in his own, you know, in his own time, start with experimenting on this sort of improvisational at that time,

improvisational theater or theater that was written out of improvisation. Huh? So, so he was doing that. He was doing that way back then. Yes, absolutely. Have you done any work with him? No, I've never worked with mike i know him because you know that seems crazy to me contemporaries but i've never worked with him no how are you at the uh how are you at the improvising are you any good can you do it um uh sometimes i'm really good at it and sometimes I'm unbelievably naff.

You know what naff means? I feel like because of how you used it, I know what it means. Yeah, naff means daff. Yeah. Not very good. Maybe that's the nature of improvisation. But Americans are brilliant at improvisation. Yeah, some of them, yeah.

Americans are much freer. I think the Brits are getting freer i think the brits are getting freer because i think they've learned from the americans and i think the whole finally exactly took my long time but um but you've addressed that it's sort of interesting that you've you know i'm jumping around a bit but that you know the sort of the i i re-watched uh the queen as well which you won the Academy Award for. I watched it the other night. And that's a really amazing performance on your part.

But it's a great story. And it's a really great script to sort of figure out how to capture that woman as a human. And in what situations. It's just really kind of a brilliantly constructed movie. Yes, Peter Morgan, a great writer. Yeah, it was really something. But it sort of deals with that idea of, you know, how British people see themselves and, you know,

how they think they're supposed to behave traditionally or nationally. Yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, that is, I mean's of a of a certain um generation yeah obviously right and i i don't know how how true that i mean i'm a i'm an elizabethan in the sense that when i came into this world elizabeth was on the throne no she wasn't on the throne but she was about, I think, six or seven when she was crowned. And she may well outlive me, I don't know. But she will have been the queen for the whole of my life, you know.

She has been the monarch of Britain. And I think, you know, that, as we were talking earlier about my parents' generation, that generation of people of which the Queen is very much a part of that generation. Yeah. It's amazing that she's still there. So we can see that generation still alive and still committed to their sense of values and that, you know, to be criticized sometimes, but, but also to be admired in many ways. Yeah. It was a, it was a, there was some great stuff in that movie between you and what's his name?

Michael or the who played Michael Sheen, Michael Sheen. Yes. Fantastic. I mean, really something else. And it's fresh in my head. Obviously. I know you did it a long time ago. Thank you for watching. That's very sweet of you and your homework. Well, you know, it's like, my head, obviously. I know you did it a long time ago. Thank you for watching. That's very sweet of you. And your homework. Well, you know, it's like, you know, there's not, you have such a, there's so much you've done. And there, you know, and for some reason,

I chose to watch a bit of Catherine. I chose to watch Long Good Friday and I chose to watch The Queen. I don't know why I chose it. That's a good mix. And then I, and I actually, I watched a couple of clips from uh hero stratus that's unfair that's unfair i was at college when i did that that's i was a student film that i

stupidly signed up for when i was like seven eighteen years old i didn't know what it was i was trying to figure out just how. It's amazing. It's still around. It's very, it's very alarming. Well, I don't think you can't, they don't have the whole movie on, on YouTube.

I don't think. And I think it's someone, someone has reprinted it and made it available. I was just curious in terms of, you know, in that time in the late sixties, early seventies, when there was so much kind of creative and adventurous things going on,

you know, in theater and in film or whatever. I was more curious about, you know, what you were involved in. It was a period of, you know, the whole 60s thing was an incredible sort of explosion in so many ways, politically, you know, artistically. Yeah. So that's what I was looking at. I wasn't looking at it to make fun of you or anything. I was curious.

The embarrassment tapes. No, no. So before I forget, did now, do you know, and I'm sure you've answered this question before, because I'm sure you did press junkets and it was on every one of them. Do you know how the queen, did she say anything about your performance no she never directly said anything she wouldn't i did meet her afterwards you did kindly oh i did i had met her very briefly before um but she very kindly and this this was basically a tick. She invited me for tea, to have tea. Not at, I was at Ascot.

I was actually, I had been asked to give a prize at Ascot. So I probably as a stand-in for the Queen, really. But she was there because she goes to Royal Ascot. And she asked me to go and have tea. What is Ascot? Ascot is a race, you know, horse race thing. Horse race meeting. Got it, got it, yeah.

It's the biggest, poshest horse race meeting in Britain, Royal Ascot. And the queen goes, because as you know, she's a huge horse aficionado. That's her passion. That's her drive is horses. Not monarchy, actually. Well, if she does it so well. So she asked you for tea? She asked me for tea.

And she introduced me to some sheik that was there as well. As this is Dame Helen. Because I was made a dame before i played the queen funnily enough but um this is dame helen she played me you know in the film and the shake looked completely confused because he obviously hadn't seen or heard of the film so but you know she watched it but she never said anything and i never would have expected her to why should she you know that's the great thing about that kind of monarchy is that they just let us get on with it uh-huh they get you know they get criticized they get um mocked right and they just say nothing well when you do that when you do that character or like i

mean i and this is a question i wanted to go back and ask also about shakespeare you know i like i have to assume even though you seem to want to approach acting you know it's it's a craft it's a skill it's something you practice. But there are things revealed to you through the process. I mean, you must take something away from, you know, figuring out how to play the queen with a full sort of strata of human emotions. You know, doesn't it have an effect on your life? Yeah, I mean, you know, what do as artists if in any of the arts you know is that you we are constantly re-examining what it is to be human aren't we i mean just constantly musicians do that painters do that writers do that and certainly actors do that it's a it's a

constant re-examination of what it is to be human in in all these different contexts so you know playing the queen it's very interesting because she lives in in a bubble that none of us can comprehend yeah except for i guess some other monarchs somewhere else in some other country but this you know jeff bezos doesn't live in that kind of bubble yeah no no it it's it's a very specific and the weight of history right there's not because there's a bubble the context of traditions that have context of absolutely and and that you are one of a long long line and and the formality and all of the shit and the spoiledness of it and the fact that no one, can you imagine this? No one has ever not laughed at one of your jokes ever in your life since you were 15.

Right. If you cracked anything that was even mildly amusing, you know, people laugh. I mean, I always noticed. So did you use that? Did you use that? Like, is that an observation that sort of gave you some sort of entry into her? No, you know what I did?

I only looked at film of her before she was queen when I was doing my research. I just looked at her of her before she was queen when I was doing my research. I just looked at her up to the age of when she was a little girl, especially just to see who is this character? Who is this person inside this huge weighty thing that's in her and trapping her? Who is that person inside of that so I looked at film of her as a little girl a lot as much as I could find there wasn't a lot out there um and then anything up to and and stuff of her during the war when she was very happy during the war because

she could work on cars you know and, and be in the women's forces. I think she was very happy there. Just this practical, slightly unimaginative probably, but very, very dutiful. Very dutiful, disciplined, but kind. You see her with Princess Margaret. She's always sort of encouraging her and helping her yeah yeah so there's a great kindness there i thought so i i just sort of you know came

towards what i thought was this real person inside of this extraordinary bubble she's in that's that's it's great it's sort of i i don't know i because like i would assume but i don't i didn't grow up with you know with her my whole life as a queen that, you know, she would want to say something. But you just you would never expect her to say anything about your portrayal of. No, I wouldn't have ever expected that. No. Or ask for it or no. So I would assume that the way you were brought up with your father, that there was some criticism of the monarchy in the household. Oh, yes. Oh, no, absolutely. My parents were strong anti-monarchists. But you have a reverence that survived that for the monarchy?

No, no, I don't have a reverence for the monarchy. Stephen Frears said we're queenists. We're not monarchists. We're queenists. Oh, you like the queen. she has conducted herself through all of this history, through all of these changes, cultural changes in the world that she has survived through. Imagine the massive cultural change she's experienced. Oh, yeah. You know, the loss of empire, you know, before the Second war you know she grew up in a world where you

know britain was a big empire and you know there was a power in the world and and she has witnessed the demise of that completely um but the way she's conducted herself she never got fat she never got thin she never you know became addicted to anything she just She never, you know, became addicted to anything. She just steadily went on, you know, through and then through Diana and all the stuff that family-wise she's had. Andrew, oh, my God, Andrew. Now, yeah. Now. Oh, ugh.

So, you know, but she will, like amazing sort of ship just carrying on through all the storms. And what do you what do you think, like in terms of like because you did a lot of Shakespeare before you did films, right? I mean, when you when you were young. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Now, now, like as an artist, you know, how does that because Shakespeare pretty much covers the full spectrum of human goodness and horror. Like, you know, you know, my God. Yes. Yes, it does. From you think from Tamblyn or, you know, Lear lost his eyes being put out. Right. He wasn't he was unafraid of horror yeah and and so like i have to like in terms of your education as a grown-up and as somebody who investigates the the human uh emotional capacity it's it's all in shakespeare right it's all there so you it is so you've had to like the part of

that training whether it's about acting or movement or being here or there on the stage, emotionally, you're going to get filled up with almost every type of interaction possible between humans doing Shakespeare. Yes. The only issue there is the language. Right. As you said, so you are fighting, you're not fighting the language because the language is so poetic and beautiful and supports emotion, but it's trying to get the audience to understand what you're talking about sometimes. But when it was written, that wasn't an issue? No, I would imagine not. Yeah, that's interesting. I would imagine not. Yeah, that's interesting. I would imagine not. It was certainly a lot easier, although he was still writing poetically. And there are still conceits, poetic conceits that you have to sort of follow through and understand the ultimate sort of

bringing together of that conceit. So you spend this time doing Shakespeare and doing some other classics and some modern theater. And then, you know, the desire is to do film, which it seems is a much, in most cases, unsatisfying and lesser, you know, venture. Like, you know, did you feel that after doing the work you did on stage, the first few films, the first few films you had was sort of like a letdown? Like, I mean, did you feel that after doing the work you did on stage, the first few films, the first few films you had was sort of like a letdown? Like, I mean, is it really the type of acting? No, it's not the acting. I think that the if there was anything there, it was just the thinness and the paucity of the.

Of the thought. Right. In a scene, you know. When you're used to these sort of incredibly profound thoughts that sometimes you have to engage in Shakespeare. I mean, the simplest version of that is to be or not to be. That is the question. And, you know, when you're having to think that, unfortunately I've never played Hamlet. I would love to have played Hamlet. Just that concept is so profound, you know, and then you're in a movie and you say, you know,

where's the milk? Yeah. Or, you know, remember to shut the door or, you know, or I kill people, dear. Right. But so it's, but the acting in film is very intense and very powerful because it's like this unbelievable concentration. It concentrates down. And, you know, you've got this huge set and all these hundreds of people and everyone's arrived.

The light guys arrived at four in the morning and the honey wagon people drove the honey wagon in and the catering got set up and the makeup truck is there and then you're in makeup at six in the morning. And now all of that stuff and now is action. And now it's your job to do everything. The thing that all of this is about. Yeah, yeah.

All of those people's work, everything, the time, the effort, is all down to action. Yeah. And that's your job. And that's my job. And you don't know how that's going to be cut. And I don't know how it's going to be cut. I don't know how it's going to come out even.

I know. Because you don't practice. You can't rehearse it. So I find film acting incredibly intense and wonderful and demanding and inspiring. And I watch Americans do it. The first time I worked with Americans, I was blown away by them because their ability to be natural within this unspeakably

unnatural, it's more natural to be on a stage, honestly, with another person opposite you in costume and you're, you know, than it is on any film set. It's, it's almost impossible to be natural. And so the people who are natural and within their their naturalness are inventive who was the first person that you noticed that with that you worked with when you were like oh my god well i i have to say pacino it was the greatest master of that the master of the technique completely did you work with him i did i i did a a TV thing about Phil Spector. Oh, yeah, that's right. I played his lawyer and and he played Phil. Yeah. But to to to to work with Al is is is an amazing experience. But one of the one of the actors that I worked with on the first American film I did, which was

2010, was Bob Balaban. I don't know if you've ever spoken. Oh, yeah. Bob Balaban, a great, great actor and a great guy. I've talked to him. And he gave me this brilliant piece of film acting note. And I've passed this on to other young actors. And at at the time a book called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance was very fashionable and he said acting is like Zen. He said you aim your arrow where you think it's going to land you know in the take aim your arrow

and let it go and let it go let it land wherever it lands because you can't control where it lands you can't control what the audience is going to get from that moment that is you don't even know whether it'll be in the movie or not so aim your arrow give it all you can and then let it go yeah don't go home and think oh my god i think, oh my God, I should have done it like this. I should have done it like that. Why didn't I do that? Which one tends to do in film? So it was a great piece of advice.

That is great. That's something, yeah. I mean, you worked with him on which, where'd you work with Bob? He actually, this was 2010. He was in 2010. Oh, the movie 2010, right? Yeah, the movie 2010.

And then, yes, he was a producer on Gosford Park as well. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, no, he's great. He's a great guy. Lovely, smart, wonderful guy. It is interesting, though, that you're saying that it's more natural to be on stage because of the context. It's like, you know, I'm going to talk to that guy.

We know exactly what we're going to say, and this how it goes and this is how it goes you've got chairs to sit on and you know you're in your well sure there's an audience out there and you are sort of incorporating them but with you know on film you don't people often say what's it like to work with bruce willis well i know what it's like to be with bruceis and it's a lovely thing incidentally with Bruce Willis he's so kind and lovely but to act with him you're not acting you're acting with a camera you know you're looking at a thing on the side of the camera you're not looking at a person in general right right and also yeah that's it that's there's a there's a you have you're servicing an illusion in film and television. Whereas in theater, you're not.

Theater, everyone understands the terms. You know, like, this is the play. This is the theater. They're going to do the thing. And if they do it well, we're going to be elevated and taken out. With film. And you live in the world. You're living in the world.

I mean, step onto that set. Yeah. You're in the world. You're living in the world. I mean, you step onto that set. You're in the world. Yeah. Absolutely. But on a film set, it's hard to – I can understand the actors who just want to stay. They have to stay in that world. Right.

Even though they're in their trailer or their, you know, craft services, they're in that world. Don't talk to me. You know, I can only answer as Lincoln. I can understand that because, you know, film is the film world. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy to distract.

Right. So have you worked with those kind of guys? Was Pacino like that? No, he wasn't like that no no he's and he's also one of those guys like he's one of those method guys those second generation method guys that can really when he wants to he can really still do it you know like oh yeah there's a couple of them like but you know de niro's still great too but like you know pacino can really get lost in something his oh totally yeah i thought he was. Yeah, I thought he was brilliant in,

yeah, I thought he was brilliant in the recent Scorsese film. Oh, yeah, yeah, Jimmy Hoffa. The Union leader. I thought he was fantastic. You know what he's great in is that Kevorkian movie on HBO. Oh, I haven't seen that.

I would love to see that. He's great in that. I mean, that was to me. He's one of the, the great thing about pacino was was when he was off camera and he would always do everything off camera for you but he wouldn't just that's nice say the lines oh he wouldn't be reading the lines you know or just just fall out acting he'd give a more of a performance sometimes off screen than he

would on screen because he'd be inspired by something. He just can't stop himself. He loves to act. He loves it. He loves it. He loves the imaginative process. But it's very generous for somebody

to do that. Incredibly. So in the beginning though did you find that you were taken like how do you how did you where do you see the evolution from? Because, you know, at the beginning, you had smaller parts. There were some sort of slightly, you know, sexualized parts where you expected to fill a role that had nothing to do with necessarily the character or who you were and so you kind of evolved out of that somehow and and like i think it was probably

long good friday was probably the the first big you know well no i would say the first big in a way i mean i've done lots of t lots of big tv roles. Oh, yeah. At that time, I was said, and it was true, British film is alive and well and living on television. And that was very much the case through the 70s. But I did luck out majorly and get the role in Prime Suspect, which was a big TV. Well, that was later. That was after.

That was later. That was in the 80pect, which was a big TV. Well, that was later. That was after. That was later. That was in the 80s, yes. But that allowed me to segue very nicely through that that can be a difficult time for women, you know, the late 30s, early 40s era period when you're not the, you know, cute young Barney anymore. Right. And you never will be again.

not the you know cute young Barney anymore right and you never will be again and um but you all the time you've been looking for something more than that anyway and Prime Suspect was a was a wonderful way for me to go into a different generation a different kind of work well I mean you you were you did it for like a decade didn't you like how long was that on? Well, I did. It wasn't that it was on. I was very lucky because it wasn't like a TV series. Yeah. It was something that we did every 18 months. I would do another Prime Suspect. So in between, I would do theater.

I would do movies. I would do lots of other things. It was never like a series series like an ongoing rolling series it was never that it was just every 18 months i would do another prime suspect and you and you were you know you dug into that character people knew the character people were fans followed along with her she sort of she she had her development you know over the years years. And now when you do like, I mean, you do a lot of different kinds of stuff. And, you know, you kind of show up in things and you are, everyone knows you. So you can just do something like documentary now and people are.

Yeah, I love that. Is it brilliant? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. Is it brilliant? Don't you love it more? I do. I do.

I love it. It's very, very, yeah. It's great. Is it brilliant? Don't you love it, Mark? I do. I do. I love it. It's very, very fun. Those guys are hilarious. Yeah. But, like, do you see any difference in doing, like, the Queen and Fast and Furious movie? Yeah, of course it's different. It's completely different.

But do you do? I begged to be in Fast and Furious. You did? I begged. Oh, yes. Yes. I begged. Why? Why did you beg to be in Fast and Furious. You did? Oh, yes. Yes, I begged. Why? Why did you beg to be in that movie?

I don't know. Because it was so different from The Queen, I think. But I did get to, you know, I love driving cars. Of course, then they never had me driving a car. Well, they let you drive one on set, though, didn't they? Eventually, yes. Oh, good. Eventually.

So that was a fun thing you did it was a fun thing yes although well you know in all these fun things there's always an element it's not so fun yeah um you know because in the end filmmaking is quite a serious business it's sure financially serious and it's a it's a it's a it's a weighty thing a movie there's expectations yeah but i vin became a has become a great friend oh yeah you and vin you hang out me and vin i love vin yeah we don't really hang out we hang out on messages and things like that uh-huh he seems like a good guy he's a good. And he looks great on camera. That's the weird thing.

There's some gift that certain actors have. Absolutely. They have a power on camera. It's wild. There's an internal power that is undeniable. And it's unexplainable, too. You can't manufacture it. Unexplainable.

And it's sort of not about acting. No. It's about something quite different. You just fit. Yeah. Yeah. so playing Catherine this uh this this four what is it do you did it was it six or four episodes four four two-hour episodes so is there anything exciting about uh the Russian element given that

it's your history well you know she actually wasn't Russian, was Catherine. She was Prussian. Right. Sort of German-Russian. But she ran the store for a while. But she ran the store for a long while. An amazing, amazing character that I had always been sort of fascinated by. Just anyone who is prepared.

I guess when people, and especially women, I mean, especially women, and especially women of that era who have the, who just know that they have the capability to do this thing. Yeah. You know, so much of being a woman is actually about insecurity, questioning yourself, not feeling you're capable. Because for thousands, oh, yeah, maybe a thousand odd years, we've been told that we are incapable and we can't do it.

And, you know, of course, you know, Mark, in the world of comedy, when I grew up, women were not funny. Oh, no, women can't be funny. We love women. They're lovely. They can do so many other things. They're wonderful. And in the end, they're stronger than men and they last longer than men, but they can't be funny. They're just not funny. It's just the way the world is. And that was a completely accepted reality. Well, yeah, but even the way you said it they're like the that the the sort of framing of women in in in a broad sense is like well they're so great they're so much stronger than we are but we they can't do anything other than can't do anything what we've what we've let them do yeah exactly exactly um and and you have

witnessed the change in attitude there. Oh, definitely. Sure. Yeah, for sure. And oh, my God, women can be funny. In fact, they're really funny. They're brilliant. Oh, yeah. Some of the best comedians right now are women, for sure. Oh, fantastic. Maria Bamford is a genius. Oh, I don't know Maria Bamford. I must look her up. Yes.

Oh, great. I'm always singing her praises. But yeah. Great. And yeah, and it's getting, I think it is getting a little better, you know, for women in comedy. And there is something to, it's definitely a fight to be fought and they are fighting and it's a righteous fight. A big breakthrough, big breakthrough there. But anyway, so for thousands of years, we were told that we were great, we were lovely and fabulous, but there are certain things we just can't do. So Catherine,

in the 18th century, looks at our complicated, violent, difficult country like Russia, and says, I can do this at the age of 25 or so. It's crazy to think that, right? It's crazy to think that. And before that, she'd learned Russian. She had, you know, learned the politics of court. I mean, she was just so brilliant. But at the same time, she was very accessible.

She was sexual. She loved falling in love you know she wasn't this sort of you know you know one dimensional person she had all these layers of femininity about her as well so i'd always been sort of fascinated about this and also she was like a rebel to a degree in terms of you know shifting the uh feudal culture into something more well trying to in the early days of her of her reign if you could call it that um yes she tried to liberate she was inspired by voltaire and the ideas that were coming out of france, of course, led to the French Revolution. But the reality of the power structure, the financial structure in Russia, depending upon the serfs, the feudal system, was just too, she couldn't dislodge it. She was not, and in the end, actually, she became quite,

as radicals often do, you know, they become quite conservative and quite, she was fairly tyrannical towards the end. As I guess she got older and she was fighting to sort of- To hold on to power. Hold on to power. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that these, because there's a lot of them in the arts too, these former kind of liberal, kind of progressive, somewhat, creative forces eventually become older and much more conservative.

I wonder. I mean, one of the reasons I was so joyful and not joyful to see people out there without masks on. But to see the protests recently, it's like, ah like ah yes thank god the young are back yeah the young are doing what the young have to do that's their job in life their job fighting for change as a young person is to fight for change and to be the ones with the courage and the balls and the tenacity and the energy to get up there and be out there and with their you know their uh signs um so i was uh you know just so great to see oh yeah happen the millennials didn't do that you know there was a weird generation where they just wanted to make money and that always slightly

disturbed me but but then the natural progression as you I guess you get married. Unlike you and I, you have children, you get a mortgage, you have a garden, you want to plant, you know, and other other things come in. But it is the role of the young. Sure. I mean, I understand getting practical, but and I understand maybe getting fiscally sort of like in your own personal life, more conservative, but I don't really understand these guys who were, you know, real artists at one time becoming sort of malignantly, uh, socially conservative. It's, it's, it's, it's some sort of, I don't know what it is. It's a wiring that they got. Like, you probably don't want to say a name, but give me a name. David Mamet, John Voight.

Oh, yes. Yes. Interesting. True. I don't think John Voight was ever radical. I think he was always conservative. Oh. Mamet, I agree.

Maybe I'm just thinking about his roles. Yeah. Yes. I think. I think. I don't know. I talked to Jane Fonda. I talked to Jane Fonda.

Yes. I think he I don't know. I talked to Jane Fonda. I talked to Jane Fonda. Yes. He, I think he took a big turn. A lot of these guys took a turn after nine 11, something just broke in their brain and they decided that foreigners were terrible and that, you know, America was under assault. I completely agree. I can't comprehend that. Yeah. I think it's what happens is it's that there's a sensitivity necessary to, comprehend that yeah i think it's what happens is it's that there's a sensitivity necessary uh to to be a a a genuine artist and and i think that you know if you get older and you maintain that sensitivity and at some point you become consumed with fear that you can't get back to

it anymore and and you react yeah in a different way yeah i don't know both i mean i've worked with both of them you know mamet wrote the um um phil specter piece which one and uh phil specter oh he wrote and directed it he's like he's like also like i think he likes being a button pusher like he's a like but i do i think that's true but i think he means i it. I think he's a provocateur. Yes, for sure. Yes, he is. And I don't think John Voight is. I think I worked with John on National Treasure.

He played my husband. Oh, really? And, you know, both, obviously, Mamet is really, really smart. But John is also very, you know, intelligent's it's a bit like um what's his name the other you know my cold dead hand um charlton heston yeah who i met very articulate yeah you know you don't want these people to be smart and articulate you want them to be kind of you know yeah trumpish yeah yeah yeah yeah but uh they're not. They're very smart, very articulate. But, you know, oh, my God, the arguments are so dangerous and unpleasant.

Closed off, not embracing, no tolerance. No tolerance, no, yes. Yeah, it's a fear thing. And frightening. Yeah, and they're frightened. tolerance. It's a fear thing. And frightening. Yeah, and they're frightened. These boomers who are coming up on the end of their time, their egos freak out.

Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. It's hard to explain. I don't understand it either. But they were nice to you. They were very nice to me, both of them. But I would argue with them. I did argue understand it. But they were nice to you. They were very nice to me, both of them. But I would argue with them. Oh, good.

I did argue with them. Oh, good. I didn't take it. I don't know. I argued. Well, keep it up. Yeah. It was great talking to you, Helen.

You too, Mark. Thank you. Thank you. I was told it would be fun, and it was fun. It was great. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. thank you i was told it would be fun and it was fun it was great yeah thank you so much thank you

helen mirren how great was that i like it got like there were moments there where i'm like i think i love her there you didn't hear it because maybe i got you locked into me screaming in my heart but my heart was singing a bit, talking to Helen Mirren. And you can watch her in Catherine the Great, now streaming or on demand on all HBO platforms. She's also in The One and Only Ivan, which will be on Disney Plus next month. And now I will play some guitar.

I got to learn some new chords. I got to learn. How long have I been saying that? How long? My heart is screaming. I'm screaming inside my heart. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

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