WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1148 - Elliot Page

Episode Date: August 13, 2020

[NOTE: This episode and its synopsis were published on August 13, 2020.] At the time when Juno became an award-winning hit film, Ellen Page experienced two things she never experienced before in her young life: She was now instantly famous and she fell in love. Unfortunately, the pressures of the former prevented her from publicly acknowledging the latter. Ellen talks to Marc about the struggles she faced in hiding her true self and the relief of coming out seven years later. They also talk about the importance of using one's platform to advocate for change and how Ellen's documentary work is shining the spotlight on injustice. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast welcome to it it is um have i have i ever said the date ever this is being posted i'm gonna mark the date august 13th 2020 there it is, time stamped. I don't think I've ever fucking done that. I don't even know why I just did it now. Maybe it'll be ominous. Maybe it'll have some meaning.

Maybe it'll have some context at some point. Like, I can't believe that was that day when he said the date and that happened on the... Yeah, let's not. Come on. What are you doing? How's it going you all right it's getting weird right getting weird getting come on man i don't know what time it is i don't know what day it is i don't know what i did this morning and what i did two weeks ago i don't know how long those you know that uh that milk's been in there i don't know when i cooked that those potatoes when i made that

quinoa is that a is that two days old or is it a month old what's happening do i look different do i who am i well i kind of know i'm i definitely know who i am where are you at jesus fucking christ I got another COVID test because I think I'm just going to do that every couple of weeks because I can. Makes me feel better for a few days. Spend the afternoon at Dodger Stadium, not for the game.

It's different now. Never went to Dodger Stadium for a game. I just go to the parking lot to get a swab, swab my mouth out, stick it in a test tube, throw it in a thing. Day later, negative. And that is good until the next time I walk into a store or by a person.

Got my hair cut. What am I, just rambling now? Don't I have better, bigger things to say about things? Wish I could fucking sleep right. So listen, Ellen Page is on the show. You know her from her acting in films like Juno inception the x-men movies her documentary show gaycation um i just watched a documentary that she uh produced and directed co-directed called there's something in the water which is about environmental racism in canada

that's streaming on netflix fill your head up with the reality let your heart sink in the hopelessness kamala harris biden's vp pick i hope that got everybody excited for a couple of days we'll see we'll see what happens it's starting to feel like the fix is in the big authoritarian powwow

the grifter clusterfuck the militaristic shitshow the complete brain annihilation of the spirit of America is upon us. I don't want to say I told you so, but I kind of, I didn't tell you so, but sort of on the pulse of this shit, but it could go down. Now, this is the way I think all the time i don't i don't know how you think you know there's a lot going on in terms of trying to keep your sanity in this time of plague and uh political upheaval and delusional bullshit and also there's a

revelation at hand in that it's really kind of interesting to see how people that you respect and even like and maybe know kind of well and thought were smart are fucking dumb. Just dumb. Have no idea how to contextualize news or information. Have no basic understanding of science. have no basic understanding of science i was talking to somebody i don't know that well about the future and about the nature of what we're going through with this virus problem and this person said yeah you know they just keep changing you know what we should be doing and what's going on it just keeps changing there's no you know they and the tone was that like we're being fucked with somehow as opposed to it's a new disease we don't know

anything about it really we're learning and things are going to evolve in terms of how we see national safety global safety personal safety around this fucking illness it's like i don't believe them because they keep they keep changing their ideas around it because they don't know it's unbelievable so the lack of information on a scientific front is evolving that's a scientific process what's this what's this what's this okay it's not those try this try this try this all right those didn't work what about this that's this what's this okay it's not those try this try this try this all right those didn't work what about this that worked all right so let's stay along this trajectory now let's go back try this try this try this the process what are people children why don't they

fix it and i just i fucking fell through the goddamn floor of my sense of self the other night when I woke up in waking consciousness, because for me, it was always like, hey, man, you know, whether it's a fantasy or not, if I got a good passport, you know, I could at least go somewhere, now that's meaningless, because we're pig people, and then the back of my brain is like, what if we got to get out, how bad is it going to get are there going to be blood they're going to be blood in the streets do i need to get a gun i can't just get one right and what is what are you going to be fighting against exactly i actually had that moment it's like fuck are all the guns gone no this they're not gone this is america plenty of guns for everybody maybe just a bat would be good

i'm gonna just swing my bat swing my way out of the apocalypse here's what i learned depending on what kind of brain you have maybe don't read chris hedges as you're falling asleep. Maybe that's not the thing to do. Big fan of Chris Hedges. But when you read him, not only do you think that you're not doing enough and that you don't know enough and that you're not smart enough and that you're not seeing things properly,

but if you don't do something soon the absolute worst is going to happen and he's been ringing this bell a long time around what's happening in this country and i can recommend a piece for you that you should read. Nothing funny about it. And it will fuck your day up. It may fuck your brain up. But it might be what is up. Go look up. Go find Chris Hedges, America's Death March.

Now, I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's written some great books, Mr. Hedges. I've talked to him back in the day. Tried to make him laugh, got him laughing, but it doesn't matter. I mean, that used to be my agenda. When I was back at Air America, we'd do the, you know, I'd get these heavy hitters on, I'd just be like, I wonder if I can get him to giggle. I wonder if I can get that guy, reporter on the beat

of the Ben Laden situation. Was it Peter Bergen? Yeah, Peter Bergen. We used to talk to him a lot, and he was like the guy writing about Ben Laden and the terrorism. And I just, in my mind, we get him on the phone, I'm like, I wonder if I can get Bergen to crack up.

I wonder if I can get Chris Hedges to laugh. Like, what is the big victory? Let him say their horrible truth. Let that sink in. Liberals don't want the horrible truth tellers laughing. They just want the horrible truth and to feel like all hope is lost and to get angry and then if that's fixed move on to another horrible truth fortunately there are so many happening simultaneously that there's no shortage

chris hedges america's death march maybe do it in the mid-afternoon don't do it in the morning don't do it before you go to bed and don't do it if your brain is at a tipping point already in terms of just how fucking bad the turn to authoritarianism

can get logically illustrated in a realistic way fucked me up thank you for i got a lot of beautiful fan art of my cat monkey that i have to get framed my point is the things that are going on is that like how things in your head house house things in your house, how things in your area. You know, there's that.

There's the sort of hygiene of the head. The hygiene of your house. How you keep yourself safe out in the world. And then there's the world. That's rough. But your head and your house can be all right. Your neighborhood could be all right. The weather could be all right.

And every once in a while you slip into these maybe a half hour, maybe an hour, maybe 10 minutes where you're like, it's nice. It's nice to be alive. And then the fucking world comes bearing down on you. But sometimes if the head is nice and the weather's nice and your house is nice, you might be able to get a couple hours in where you remember

what it's like to be you in the life you once had. So here's the thing with Ellen Page. I was nervous about it, and I get nervous about all of them. As you know, all of my interviews, there's always a certain amount of anxiety and dread going into it. Only because I don't know the person, and I know she's a sensitive person. She's a socially active person, a concerned person, know the person. And I know she's a sensitive person. She's a socially active person,

a concerned person, empathetic person, watched a documentary, seen her movies, respect her. But I also knew that she had done a movie with Lynn.

She did Touchy Feely with Lynn. And that was back in 2013. She did Touchy Feely with Lynn back in 2013. So she had worked with Lynn Shelton. And I knew that I wanted to talk to her about that, but I didn't know when. And I knew that I wanted to talk to her about that, but I didn't know when. And I felt that from the beginning, that was sort of underneath it. She knew it too. And I chose to wait because I didn't want to start crying if I did at the beginning. So I tried to hold on to it,

but I felt that was sort of an undercurrent of what was going on for a lot of the interview. Just sort of like, when's that going to come up? I had a plan, though. I had a plan. But this was nice talking to her. It was nice talking to Ellen Page once we got the hang of each other. It worked out very nicely. She's currently in the Umbrella Academy on Netflix. Seasons one and two are now streaming.

As I mentioned earlier, the documentary she co-directed, There's Something in the Water, which is heavy but important information to see how corporations are heartless fucking cancers on the face of the planet most of the time. That's streaming on Netflix as well. And this is me talking to Ellen Page. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis

producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die.

We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+.

18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. How are you? I'm doing good, yeah. How are you? I'm doing good, yeah. How are you doing? I'm okay. I'm okay. Are you outdoors?

Are you in a... Are you... Where are you? Yeah, I'm in a cabin right now. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I watched... I watched the Something in the Water documentary.

Oh, wow. And it was really informative and really opened my mind to stuff. And I never, like, I don't know anybody from Nova Scotia. That seems like outside of, we can get into the corporate horror and environmental racism. But let's talk about Nova Scotia for a minute, can we? Sure, yeah. Is it an island? It is an island, kind of, right?

Or no? It's a peninsula. How many siblings do you have? Two, two siblings. So three of you are just growing up in Nova Scotia, and your parents were like, what did your dad do there? My dad is a graphic designer, and my mom is a retired elementary school teacher. A teacher? Yeah.

When I talk to people who have teachers for parents, it seems like usually it's a real gift. They seem to encourage their children to do what they want to do with a certain amount of support. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, for sure. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, for sure. Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. And what, like, what, what were you doing?

You know, what, what kind of stuff did you get involved with when you were younger? What were your interests? How'd you end up in the arts? Was it always something you were interested in? I mean, like, yes and no. When I was a kid, I was mostly like sports and video games and, you know, that kind of vibe for sure. And then, but was always really wanting to go to the, you know, the drama productions at school and the high school ones,

even though I had no idea what was going on and my mom would take me. I had some very clear, you know, fixation on whatever that is, you know? Yeah. Yeah. clear you know fixation on whatever that is you know yeah yeah um and then essentially I was in school and I was 10 and this you know wonderful man John Dunsworth who has since passed he uh he came to my class looking for kids to like audition for this cbc movie of the week called pit pony really yeah and I just got like know, picked to go audition for it. And then I auditioned for, I think I auditioned for it twice and then was in this, you know, CBC movie Pit Pony.

And then that, that movie turned into a TV show, which we shot in Cape Breton, which is an island in Nova Scotia, the mainland to the north. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful place. That's how it all started. And then it just continued from there in lots of strange ways, I suppose. So you weren't even really acting. You were just interested. And there was a guy, a director, who was auditioning kids.

Yeah, well, he was a casting director. He's a phenomenal actor himself john dunsworth played uh mr lahey in the show trailer park boys which is which is a show that um right massive massive in canada and has a bigger following elsewhere now um and uh it's a comedy show yeah right and then i was on trailer park boys when i was like i think I was 13 13 or 14 maybe that must have been huge it was fun um the long time ago now um but yeah so that's essentially how it began I think it was a nice way to begin that way because here you are you're just like you know I'm in Nova Scotia it's still nobody was not supportive but it was definitely like you know this probably isn't your future

so keep up your grades play your you know, this probably isn't your future. So keep up your grades, play your, you know, the big soccer player, play your soccer, like, et cetera. And then I just sort of kept working more and more and more. And then I, I left Halifax at 16 and moved to Toronto and just committed to hoping that I could make this happen. Did you train at all or did you just go with it and learn on the job? I just, yeah, I just went with it and learned on the job.

But I suppose, you know, just like around so many, you know, it and learn on the job i just yeah i just went with it and learned on the job um but i suppose you know just like around so many you know incredible people all the time and working with all these extraordinary good directors filmmakers yeah and writers in canada fantastic actors and you know constantly feeling inspired and learning so much yeah It just sort of, it just continued. Yeah. And also, I mean, it seems like you have this sort of natural, almost genetic emotional inclination that makes a good actor and like a good sort of activist as well as that, you know, that kind of sensitivity and empathy and ability to connect fairly quickly to somebody else's emotional experience. Yeah. I mean, I think for me,

it's been one of the most incredible gifts doing this job in terms of being in a society where we're changing more and more in the ways we speak of these things, but so encouraged, like not to feel like, so to not connect with our emotions because it can you know it can scare us or you know what have you and i think to have a job where like your literal job is to connect with just like other you know you know a character i suppose i don't know what other word you use for it to just like really connect with that person on a deep, deep level. Right. And go to, you know, perhaps different spaces in yourself that you weren't necessarily aware of or things come out, you know, it's really an incredible experience.

And then you hope, obviously, yes, people watching the work or when I watch work that really moves me, you know, you have this sort of shared emotional experience and like connection to each other, whether it's just like fun and joyous or painful or. Right. So when you like when you do, because I've talked to actors about it before and like it's a very different answer for all of them. answer for all of them, it seems, about how much doing a particular character sort of informs them forever in a lasting way. And it sounds like you've had that experience probably a few times where you do a role and it does introduce you to a part of yourself that you didn't know, and then you can then sort of integrate that for better or for worse into your life. know and then you can then sort of integrate that for better for worse into your life yeah and i think um that's it's like interesting when i think about that when i was like younger and like a kid

and a teenager especially like when roles started to become you know mid-teens late teens just like more intense you know or you know a lot more to it and you know some really awful scenes to shoot traumatic things and I feel like when I was younger it was actually kind of probably quite tricky to know how to compartmentalize to know how to set it aside and right because you're also you're experiencing so many things for the first time you're yourself you know like you're really truly that you know you're starting to discover and figure out how to establish you know some kind of sense of an individual identity and an authentic voice. And going through all those things that we're always going through in our lives, but particularly as teenagers.

And you do think about certain roles and situations in that time. And now it's nice to have the experience where you are able to take certain things, leave certain things, hold on to something if that feels necessary. Don't if you know much more able to kind of navigate that emotional aspect of the work. And also life, I would imagine. Yes. And life. Yeah. That thing too. Yeah. Working on that one. Yes, and life. That thing too. Working on that one.

That work never seems to stop because there's always so many curveballs thrown at you. And when you started getting the attention, did you ever live out here? I'm in L.A. Yeah, I lived in L.A. for like 10 years, pretty much. Oh, yeah. And you moved out here, you know, what, when you did the first X-Men or when did you come out?

No, I moved out sort of right after like Juno came out. Okay. To sort of properly move there and live there. So I would have been like 21. And, you know, because I know that sort of like for, probably for not better or worse, but for worse, I mean, that sort of shaped your I think that the elements of show business that are kind of disgusting has sort of shaped some of your your social activism and also just who you are as a public person. Did you feel that right away when you got out here? Did you have any fun initially?

Oh, in that period? It's a really good question. And, you know, the honest answer to that is, you know, I fell in love with a woman for the very first time, you know, after we'd shot Juno, before the film came out. And, and I, and I just remember very much like, Juno came out, obviously, that changed things in an instant. There's incredible things that come with that, clearly. But yes, then the sort of aspect of, you know, people can't know you're gay, you know, where like the dresses and the heels and all these things to make it seem like this is who you are, you know, that became, that just became such a massive part of my experience.

These were the people that were surrounding you that were managing your career or you? It was, well, you know, you can't not include yourself because you, you know. You're going along with it. Yes, but I wasn't well. well. And I think, you know, individuals who were expressing that and who I've had conversations, you know, long conversations with about that time and apologies, you know, these really, I think, the thing that is so fucked up is, you know, the thought is, in that time is, oh, we're we're just you know we're trying to do our job and and like help you and like help your career and all of this but what a needless to say a horrible

thing to be um to even just be let alone you know to be experiencing that at the time becoming very quite known overnight then kind of you know after having some growth and evolution in terms of self-discovery and then that just sort of going squash a little bit on that but then you feel you know it's so you're so fucking also like you're so you know so fortunate you know gives me the career it gives me like such immense, you know, privilege and opportunity. And so you also feel like, oh, I don't think I'm allowed, like, should I be talking about my pain? Like that feels, you know, you feel like you can't. Like, you know, even now it's like, I still have a hard time talking about that period, to be honest. So my experience was, you know, it's hard to know what to say.

Because even though it's, you know, amazing all these things are happening, this other aspect of it was just not, it was incredibly, incredibly painful and difficult to say it like very, you know. Yeah. I mean, emotional trauma is real. Yeah, I mean, emotional trauma is real. I mean, you know, and life defining and, you know, kind of recovering from your own part in it, you know, and the sort of PTSD of that, of not allowing yourself to engage with that part of yourself, that kind of detachment necessary to live like that is, you know, it's, it's destructive to, you know, it's just a destructive thing. I mean, it's a real, you know, it's a real trauma. I mean, you know, the shame is just so incredibly toxic and just, it affects every aspect of who you are. It affects your mind. It affects you physically. It affects the way you relate to the world. It's, you know, it's just because like, that's how you're,

that's the lens you see yourself through because of the situation. Well, I think, you know, let's, you know, okay. You're having this experience at this age in Hollywood. You've also had the entire experience of your life, like growing up gay, you know, and growing up gay and, you know, Halifax, Nova Scotia. I'm not, you know, I'm, you know, I'm 33 now, you know, and growing up gay and, you know, Halifax, Nova Scotia, I'm not, you know, I'm, you know, I'm 33 now, you know, I mean. Yeah. But you knew, you know.

It wasn't, you know, like, yes, but not, you know. Right. And so you, you know, you also just have all of that, you know, your experience in school or getting teased or yeah you know chase to be beaten up whatever you know it's like or just all the things that are happening in your life in the midst of all that just pertaining to that sort of one issue in terms of your identity right and so yes so then you're you're kind of you know you're experiencing all of that and all of that, you know, shame that's already been like living in you for so long. Right. And then on, you know, and then on top of that, you're getting this, you know, perverse and, uh, you know, violent attention from men,

you know, sexually who can't read that at all. And then, you know, you have to deal with that kind of assault on top of your own personal shame and your own struggle to sort of, you know, become who you want to be. You mean in terms of working with certain people in the industry? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Awful. I remember one night at a party in L.A., like one of my best friend's, you know, birthday parties. And this guy, he works in the industry and he you know he began

he was clearly like not sober at the time but that's irrelevant um and he was just being really homophobic just saying the like craziest shit to me i just it's like i like kept trying to get him to stop people weren't really like doing anything and it wouldn't it wouldn't stop and then it turned into like all these you know explicit sexual comments about how i'll do this so you won't be you know just horrible horrible fucking horrible yeah so i'd say that's like that was like you know that was that was like the package all in one but early on like when you said that you know you fell in love with a woman for the first time when you were you know right when Juno happened so you were struggling with this public image and the maintenance of a false public image in in was that a relationship was

she was that someone you were with and had to deal with that with you? Yeah. And what was that dynamic? How were those discussions? Did that help you in any way or was it just totally destructive? And, you know, I don't know if anybody ever asked me this in this way. I mean, she was incredibly, like, you know, supportive. It was like such an overwhelming time. Yeah, right. And I think, you know, it was it obviously, you know, it sucked.

It's like, sure, you know, not to sound so eloquent, but it sucked. And, you know, you're just navigating it and it's, you know, it sucked. It's like, you know, not to sound so eloquent, but it's helped. And, you know, it's, you're just navigating it and it's, you know, it's hurting your relationship. And it's just like, you know, you're not having the experiences, you know, other people have in relationships. Because you're, you're kind of, you're, you're, you're tearing yourself apart because you're living in these two different worlds. You can't be out and having a good time in public like you might want to be. And then the person that you're with has to be supportive, but also has to watch your inner struggle manifesting all the time, what you want to do and what you think you can. Yeah.

Or how, you know, it's internalizing for them and how they are feeling or, um, so definitely not easy in another part of how toxic it is when people are put in these positions. Um, well, I mean, I read that, like, I don't know what the timeline is. I mean, I read the, I watched the, um, you coming out at the, uh, human rights, uh, event. And then I read the Facebook page the Facebook thing you

wrote about Ratner and that's later right much later right yeah what year did you come out publicly when would when did that happen uh 2014 so I was 27 I was just about to turn 27 yeah wow it's a long time huh yeah but it was one of those situations where people knew right you mean like just people yeah well yeah you have friends in the industry and everybody else yeah totally and but you know it took time it took time and significant time to get more and more comfortable with, with that. Right. Like, you know, before coming out publicly, it was very like, okay, here's just like, you know, now I'm ready to really do this. But, you know, leading up until that point, it was very just, yes, I assumed it was like, like you know it wasn't something that I was like hiding necessarily in my like personal life anymore um just hadn't sort of done that you know

taken that like public public step um but it took you know it took it took time to even just get comfortable with like mentioning that my girlfriend was coming to visit when I'd be shooting a film or something like it took me a long time to even get there and then someone might say something to you who thinks they're being I don't know what they're thinking like another actor right that could be like one little comment that they never remember you know all you know so many of the things that have been said to me that like can then really you know make you go you know and like kind of get scared again you know right um or an agent say something or somebody make a joke and you get scared again like you know some kind of comment can get made is all i mean that could then make you go like oh no and like kind of retract away again so it became like a bit of

that kind of an experience it's terrible it's It's like because you're you know, you seem very kind of, you know, sensitive and I'm pretty sensitive. But I, you know, over years, you really learn how to kind of navigate in a in a with a certain guard up, you know, and it just sort of becomes a thing. And, you know, it becomes a difficult thing to believe that that being out in the world and being sensitive is good. Do you know what I mean? Like, what's the point of that? Right. That just seems fucking crazy so during all that time you start you just build up a certain amount of strength around your your life and your your life decisions and your lifestyle and a certain comfort and then like i imagine the day that you decide to do that you like to come out like at

what point i guess that's the question because i I have found this in my own life a bit that I mean when do you realize that you're part of your responsibility in in your own personal struggle is to to sort of you know provide an example or or or some sort of hope for other people, you know, like, because it seems like you're very aware of that now and that in your particular situation, the struggle to, you know, sort of be who you are, be comfortable with it, be public about it in a world where, you know, there is violence and judgment and, you know, lack of justice for people who are marginalized. When do you realize, I imagine, your personal struggle gets sort of, at some point gets sort of the back seat to, you know, what is a public problem?

And did that coincide with you deciding to come out, or did you realize that after? No, I think it coincided in, in many ways because I always, you know, hopefully, and we'll hope to continue to is operate from a place of like with privilege, with platform, you know, we, we just must be using it. That's just absolutely. It's just, it's just crucial. It's just what we should be doing. And I think, um, needless to say, when, you know, you're living in a space where you like literally cannot be who you are, um, and how much that's the toll that that does take on you. And then to sort of like get through that. Yeah.

you and then to sort of like get through that. Yeah. And I feel like this can be a lot to talk about, quite frankly. I think when you, you do go through, you know, certain times in one's life that aren't, are not easy,

that go to some scary places. And then you realize, you know, on top of that, the degree of privilege and how fortunate you are, knowing that certain resources I had to heal, to get better, to get help, all of these certain things that, you know, a lot of people just like don't even have access to. Right. And I think it's a matter of in terms of, you know,

those aspects coming together was very much like, okay, like now I'm in this place where I'm out, I'm talking about this. And like, now I can like really go just make this work that I really, really want to make, you know, whether it was, you know, making the documentary with Vice vacation um and in general just you know making films with queer stories roles etc um and so that was i'd say like a big jumping off point in terms of okay now like like just really wanting to move forward. God, that must have been a relief.

It was, yes. It was a big relief. You know what is crazy though? The day after I came out, I flew like the next morning to Montreal to do reshoots for X-Men. Like a day, I think, or two days maybe. And then I get on the plane to fly back and a priest was sitting behind me.

Yeah. And maybe like a couple hours into the flight, I felt a little like touch on my shoulder and he handed me a note and I was thinking, Oh, okay. This is, maybe it's just like a really cool progressive, you know? And then it was just this like awful note he wrote like i took the liberty of googling you and found out about your recent announcement and then wrote me a whole handwritten letter about like you're going to hell not you're going to hell but that you know when they write when they're saying you're going to hell but they they write it in a nice way yeah right right right that you're you're lost

and that you're sinning and that you know jesus is there yeah massive relief like 100 but then that was just very like yeah a reminder on a plane yeah Two days later. Just asking you a no. This is still here. Yeah. This will never go away. Do you get a lot of unsolicited hate? I guess no one solicits hate, but you know

what I mean. I mean, just, no. Very rarely. That's good. It's usually just if you know you've talked about something in terms of wanting wanting marginalized people not to suffer and people get very upset um about that so for some reason like you'll get hatred out of like, you know, talking about LGBTQ equality in general or speaking about how, you know, something's queerphobic or what have you or transphobic or what have you. So that's when hate comes in. But yeah. Yeah.

people I understand more than just people who are so threatened by other that they seem, you know, that there's no way to change their mind. There's no way to make them see it differently unless something just by coincidence happens in their life that makes them realize it, like something that they love or somebody they know has you know an experience that jar you know jogs them out of their hatred but it doesn't seem that there's any there's no teachable sort of uh magic trick that's going to get these people to to act like fucking humans it's frustrating yeah yeah tell me about it i I mean, I, you know, I think people can and do change, of course. Yeah. I've seen people in my, you know, online. You have? I have. Yeah. In so many ways. So that's where I try and sit with like hope and love when I start getting angry because I've also, you know,

with the show I make, you know, with Vice where we traveled around the world to for, you know, LGBTQ communities in different countries. Yeah, it's great. It's great. It's a great show. It's very gutsy what you do, you know, when you stay in it, you know, you put yourself at a certain amount of emotional and even physical risk to hold your ground. And it's very it's great. It's a great show. your ground and it's very uh it's great it's a great show oh thanks but yes that is an example of talking to people where you know you can find yourself just trying to like pour your heart out to connect in your mind you're like how can this person not just how can we not just like look at each other share a moment and come to the conclusion that loving each other and accepting each other is just totally the better way to go like for everybody

and um well what's what's been your experience walking away from those situations where that doesn't happen how do you explain it oh i don't know i mean that's where i was gonna go with that it's like and then you know you're having this conversation and it's just like you're not but look this is like one you know it's obviously short in the show but it's like in maybe a two hour conversation right you're not spending you're not like, you know, it's obviously short in the show, but it's like maybe a two hour conversation. Right. You're not spending. You're not like, right. You know, in a reality show where you're like roommates for two weeks or something. Roommates with Ted Cruz for two weeks.

Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, I don't you know, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. It's hard. Yeah. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. It's hard. Yeah. And you're mostly reflecting on like the individual and those certain spaces we go to that are, you know, uh, incredibly, you know, risky and people just, just being themselves as

a risk to their lives, you know, every day, which is the same in many places here too. Like, don't get me wrong, but you know what I'm saying? So you, you walk away from some situations feeling you know more inspired than you've ever been and then you leave other situations where you're just sort of hearts broken by a place that people seem to get where they think a certain way about others that uh is it's quite it's cruel i think it's the level of cruelty that's been a lot of that's really awful and so much of what's stuck with me and, you know, certain situations making that show. Right. And also just sort of like, I mean, I was trying to think about, because it seems that, you know, I don't, I don't know which movie that, that experience you had with

Brett Ratner was on. Was that the first of the X-Men movies? with Brett Ratner was on. Was that the first of the X-Men movies? It was the third X-Men movie, the third one. And the first one I did, I was 18. Yeah. Okay. So that was, okay.

Right. But just to be in, like, cause like to realize, you know, in retrospect and, and, and to, to kind of sort of put that moment in that, that reality into perspective, you know, as a, as, you know, when you did it on Facebook, like, and, and then to sort of realize that like, that was just, people just put up with that shit and they still do that. That guy thought he was being funny. Right. Honestly, it's that whole situation and that that film set was just the worst it's like the worst the worst and i mean i've written about it so it's not like i'm

you know saying something new by any means but and then you know i referenced a couple experiences other experiences just ones in the, at the age of 16, but it's like, you know, the amount that I could write or stories I could tell. And then, um, you know, and obviously we're having a different conversation about it, but it's like, you know, you still see this behavior happening. You still see individuals having, know successful careers right but but by calling him out and he got called out for other things just by you know putting you on the spot in a vulnerable place and you know outing you in a way that was hostile and uh you know and uh

aggressive and then like i mean beyond beyond hostile and aggressive and like encouraging someone next to this. It's like I don't even want to say it. Like that one comment he made is awful. Right. Encouraging someone else in the cast publicly in that moment in front of other people to to have sex with you. A member of the crew. But, yeah. Oh, a member of the crew.

Yeah. Yeah. And making everybody, you you know just like yeah the yeah yeah the and then everybody's just standing there like what the fuck just happened yeah i mean you know it's just and then because because he's the director you got to move on yeah and the thing is is like it seems that the hardest part about that, about that being the status quo, is that, you know, it's so like ingrained in the the power structure of the business that, you know, in order for them to see that they're being inappropriate or totally wrong is difficult. Like it takes a lot. Yeah. You know, and I think that there's that,

that cultural moment of educating, you know, people about behavior and about sensitivity and about, you know, respect, you know, it was a long time coming and I think it's possible, but you know, these, the bigger monsters, you know, seem to, uh, have a lot of them have been made examples. And, and, and and and i think that serves to you know make lesser monsters rethink who they are which is good yeah and i think too like what you said in terms of people becoming more aware of like you know sensitivity etc it's like there's that counter to it of oh you're being too sensitive oh you can't take a joke you know that kind of energy oh why can't you like why do

you have to get so emotional or whatever you know all these things that are said it's like it's also like when I think of that Brett comment and you know other like his behavior in general or other things that have been said to me in this industry and you just think of like okay you made that comment do you have any concept of age is how awful that is regardless of like any of my personal experience or anything it is just plain awful but if we're looking at in terms of this you're sensitive it's a joke whatever it's like like you know the experiences people have had in their own world at their intersection of identity and then you go and like

you know make some comment that you think's a fucking funny joke when you have absolutely no clue what's going on in someone's life right what they could be dealing with at the time in terms of that very thing you're speaking of publicly in front of people yeah it's like not only is it awful and not funny and mean, it's very dangerous. And I find when people are being so dismissive of people saying, you need, like, hey, this thing you just said, or what you're saying right now about this community is hurtful. And the response is so dismissive. Take a joke. Just. Yeah.

Like, let's all just like take a moment. Yeah. And give people an opportunity like never did really have an opportunity to like express how they feel and how that makes them feel. And, you know, we've all had to do work in our own ways. Right. Like, I don't, you know, we've all had to do work in our own ways. We've all had to grow and evolve. I'm not trying to, but I am just saying we need to understand that this stuff is...

It's hurtful and it's dangerous and it can provoke anything from verbal abuse to physical abuse to violence, to murder. I mean, like these, like in, and in self-harm, like self, that's another point. Yeah. I mean, it gives people license, you know, self-harm through shame and, and physical harm through, you know, feeling entitled to be violent. Yeah. I, I, I understand all that. And it's, it's, it's pretty devastating, but I just was thinking yesterday, cause you said like something just rang with me. I, I understand all that. And it's it's pretty devastating. But I just was thinking yesterday because you said like something just rang with me. I interviewed Leah Remini yesterday about Scientology and. And she's I like her. And but she one of the tools in dealing with these kids who grew up in it,

who were separated from their parents and were having emotions, was to, you know, quit crying, suck it up. You know, like the same type of thing is what you're talking about, you know, with the status quo of the power dynamic in the business and how lesser people like not, it comes down from the top, but you know, everybody's sort of like, nah, you know, don't be so sensitive. Just, you know, everybody's sort of like, don't be so sensitive, just suck it. This is the way he is. It's the same kind of gaslighting, brainwashing shit. I mean, that's literally what happened as I referenced in that op-ed about the Brett Ratner incident, that two producers came to my trailer

because I had been on set, like, you know, not wanting to put up with it, you know, and it was basically up with it, you know? And it was basically like, we know Brett's an issue, but you know, you can't talk to him that way. And we need to, we need to, you know, we're all just like so aware. And then when I wrote that op-ed, I get an email from one of the producers that's like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I had no idea. I didn't write back, but I wanted to be like, you were the person I was talking about right right and that's when the email was them covering their own ass

I suppose yeah but uh but like you know given that you know there has been some at least you know cultural attention in some small amount of justice in some of these situations. How much did it affect your relationship with Hollywood, either in getting work or even wanting to work there? After coming out and everything you mean? Yeah. That's what made me want to keep doing the work again, to be honest. I think I, in the time of just being so closeted and not well in certain ways, I didn't feel, I wasn't feeling inspired. I wasn't living as my true self. I had those thoughts in

my early twenties, like, God, I don't know if this is how I feel now. Like I'm not, I'm not so sure, you know? Um, and periods where I just sort of like, like left and go back to Nova Scotia and, you know, but then I'd work again. And, um, and then it was really coming out and making the steps I wanted to make in my life that made me love the work again and made me, to make in my life that made me love the work again and made me, you know, want to tell stories that mean something to my heart and use the privileges and the resources I have to, uh, hopefully, you know, help in any way I possibly can with what I have. Yeah. And you worked with like, uh, a woman that I was involved with. Um, you know, it looks like right before you came out-ish,

you worked with Lynn Shelton on Touchy Feely. Yeah. I'm so sorry, Mark. I'm so sorry. What was your experience with her? My experience with Lynn was extraordinary. Lynn was the kind of human being that made you want to be a better human being. Right.

She was the kind of person who you felt an overwhelming sense of joy walking on this set every morning and seeing her because she was just a person who was nothing but heart and so deeply sincere and generous and made work at least for me it seemed out of just such deep love for what it means to be a human being in the world and the joy of it and the pain of it and Lynn was

absolutely one of the best directors I've ever worked with and I'm really lucky that our paths crossed, I'm really lucky that our paths crossed. And I'm incredibly sorry for your loss. Yeah. Everybody lost somebody great there, you know. Yeah. and thank you for saying that.

Like, I find that, like, even watching, you know, Something in the Water, which I guess you did last year, the documentary about the environmental racism and the corporate exploitation of land and the destruction of communities of, you know, marginalized people. Like, going into that, first I want to ask you after watching it, because I don't know if I understood at the very end, has anything good happened in any of those stories since you made the movie? Well, Boat Harbor,

which was where the male effluent was going to pick their land in First Nations. That has been closed. So that now is on the process of healing. And it'll be a long process to get it clean and to where it needs to be. But yes, that's huge news. But right now, the, and then a new community well will be going in to Shelburne soon. And then the situation with Alton Gas is like, you know, ongoing, but they are, they've kind of, there's been a good roadblock for them. So, so they're, they can't operate for a while now and then i think that yeah and then the grassroots grandmothers obviously are still um working hard against them and you

know it's like endless there's always so in the community of the the the older um black community of it's that shelburne right that shelbur. Now, because like when I was watching, I was like, you know, if this is what's necessary, did the government take care of it or did somebody step in and provide the well? Somebody stepped in, yeah. No shit. Yeah. That was like sort of the amazing thing about that story that, you know, for people who haven't seen the film Something in the Water, it's a documentary, is, you know, this was a, you know, a community that, what was it, in the 60s or in the 40s, they built that dump? Mm-hmm.

too that you know and then they just bury it and then it just destroys the well water and everyone gets cancer but you know when it comes down to solving the problem they can't get government attention and it's it and the money that would require to help you know turn everything around is so small and it did take private charity to to do that yeah but even that was you know that was a whole thing too even oh for them to do it with private money? It was a bit, yeah. I mean, there was just always, it always felt like there was obstacles where there didn't need to be. But clearly, this is all literally

what environmental racism is. Disproportionate amount of landfills, industrial pollution placed in Black and Indigenous communities and the lack of government response. That's just one of the biggest ones. I mean, yeah, it's a sort of like, you know, a kind of genocide through negligence after a certain point.

It's a continuation. Like even now in the world that we're here in the States, it just seems like, you know, part of the, you know, the incompetence around dealing with the spread of the coronavirus is that it's affecting marginalized people disproportionately to white people. And I have to assume that this particular administration is fine with that on some level. Well, I mean, if you look at, you know, what they've said in their actions, yeah, I mean, what else would one, you know? But yeah, and then environmental racism plays into that a huge part because if you're living in one of those communities, you're, you know, higher cancer rates,

higher respiratory illnesses. And then in terms of that intersecting with the virus, you know, you're more, so it's none of these things are, are separate, you know? It's awful. It's all terrible. I know. I know. There's a very cute dog asleep right there, though.

That's not terrible. You got to hold on to those moments. Yeah. No, I mean, it's every day. No, I know. It's a goddamn struggle. And I didn't know where you were at and getting into the conversation because we're all people who are sensitive to this stuff. And just the weight of it on a day-to-day basis is pretty hard to deal with. happen but but it's like I it's relentless so you know what are you doing you know just on a day-to-day basis to keep some level of like well you're out in the woods you got a dog you're

with your uh wife I imagine so that's nice right yeah I mean you know I I think of like my experience compared to what other people are dealing with at this time. And, yeah, it's like I'm totally fine. And, you know, we hang out, walk the dog, read, been doing a lot of press, you know. Doing press for the Umbrella Academy. Umbrella, yeah. I didn't really talk about that. Is that fun for you?

Do you have fun? I have so much fucking fun. And I think the season's really, really fucking good. But I'm happy to talk about whatever you want to talk about. Well, that's good. That's enough. That's a good pitch. But yeah, no.

I fucking love the show. And I had a blast this season. Oh, good. Well, that's good. I do suggest people check it out and uh your wife's a choreographer yeah now was this something like because like dance is one of my blind spots in terms of really appreciating you know the art of it and the history of it and and even the performance of it was that something did you were you into it before you knew her

no I wasn't that familiar um and the first time i saw her was on instagram a band that i love sylvanesso i don't know if you know them they're so so good i know yeah yeah i do i know yeah sylvanesso yeah sylvanesso yeah and they reposted a video of from emma's instagram of her you know dancing to one other song. And I just was like, Holy, I just was like, what the fuck is that? What is that? Yeah. So extraordinary. I was so moved. I was like, who is it? And then I was like looking at her other videos and I, like yourself didn't have any real exposure to dance. So this was this sort of whole new thing I was even seeing.

And then I followed her on Instagram. And that is like how our whole, you know, first connection even, even began. And then obviously from being with her have been introduced more in advance and it's incredible. You should honestly watch her work. I think it would be annoying, but it's like, it's so, she is so extraordinary.

She's just absolutely one of the most talented people I've ever known. Well, I definitely will. You know, because I find that I'm very, I get pretty sensitive to that. Like, even like any sort of theater, if we ever get back to it, but like even musicals, and I've said it a lot, like, even if a musical is happy, I'll cry just because there's so much expression. There's something about singing. There's something about people singing in a joyful way. And I think dance is the same way that you you don't know exactly how it's moving you, but it definitely is as an expression, very pure and and and has a profound effect. So I will check her out. Oh yeah, you must. Her work is just like completely breathtaking. Yeah. Well, look, I, I, I had a, uh, this is great talking to you and, um, and thank you for doing what you do. And, uh, I'm, I'm glad you had a good time. You're somebody who I want to have a good time.

And, uh, I'm glad that you're excited about about umbrella academy and and also like it's so interesting the two sides but you have something in the water over here and then you have umbrella academy over here so you know people can have a full you know full arc of an experience you know but i would watch umbrella academy after uh something in the water if you're going to do a double header and they're both on Netflix. So it's a really easy switch. You don't even need to go anywhere. You're all into the next one.

Yeah. So, well, take care of yourself. And it was good talking to you. Thanks. You too, Mark. That was me and Ellen Page. Heavy, but good. Right?

She's currently in the Umbrella Academy on Netflix, seasons one and two. You can see they're streaming and also the doc we talked about, There's Something in the Water, also on Netflix. And I'm sorry, sometimes I realize that, hear that? That's my little beard rubbing on the microphone. I will try to watch that. And now I will play some guitar for you, and I'm going to go eat something after this. You guys? Thank you. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Boomer

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