WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1149 - Kerry Washington

Episode Date: August 17, 2020

Kerry Washington has a lot to talk about with Marc, but it's appropriate that they spend the first portion of their conversation singing the praises of Lynn Shelton. Kerry talks about what Lynn brought to Little Fires Everywhere, but they also discuss how the treatment of race was different on the show than it was in the book and why that adjustment was so important to Kerry. She tells Marc about her childhood in the Bronx, her feeling of being “the other” in high school, and her determination to tell stories that amplify voices that are otherwise unheard.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening my name is mark maron uh i'm an alcoholic my name is mark name is mark maron uh i'm an alcoholic my name is mark i'm a drug addict and alcoholic my name is mark david maron i am the son of barry and toby maron of new jersey who are you who the fuck are you i bet you that question is being answered as each day in isolation and self-reflection churns on.

Every day we wake up and we're like, here it comes again. Pow! I just shit my pants. JustCoffee.coop, a classic ad from back in the day, from back when we started, from back when JustCoffee.coop was our only sponsor. That goes back pre-podcast to Break Room Live, a show I did with Sam Seder, a video streaming show before anyone was streaming video. We were ahead of the curve and it went nowhere.

It's great to be ahead of the curve and then stop. And then the curve happens and then you can't get in. Sorry, you were ahead of the curve and then stop and then the curve happens and then you can't get in sorry you were ahead of the curve when you stop but now the curve has come full circle and no one gives a fuck about you in this particular medium good luck starting from the bottom again anyway just coffee yeah they have a if you get the wtf blend we get a little something on the back end, I think, still. I don't know. I don't know what's happening. It's amazing how small my life has gotten

and how little I continue to know. By the way, Kerry Washington is on the show today. Kerry Washington, she, you might know her from Scandal, Django Unchained, Little Fires Everywhere, and now as a producer and director, an Emmy-nominated actor and producer. And so, well, can we do that? Hey, Google, are you on? I'm here.

What can I do for you? Can you tell me where Kerry Washington was born? can i do for you um can you tell me where carrie washington was born carrie washington was born on january 31st 1977 and her full name is carrie marissa washington carrie washington was born in the bronx thank you isn't that amazing isn't that like it like i should just interview that right all right let's get in it so i don't want to say that my special was good, and I don't even want to say that it necessarily was in any way prophetic, but I'm happy with it. I am happy with my special, End Times Fun, which you can watch on Netflix,

which is still very watchable. I would say the last two, Too Real and End Times Fun on Netflix are the best work I've ever done and maybe the last work I do in that medium. And I'm okay with that. But I didn't anticipate this. I did not anticipate, this is coming from AccuWeather, in Northern California, Northern California was alerted to a rare tornado warning unlike any other by the National Weather Service. Wait for it. A fire tornado. A fucking fire tornado.

The Reno office of the National Weather Service knew the mixture of 60 mile per hour winds with pyrocumulonimbus clouds from the Loyalton wildfire could produce a fire-induced tornado. The forecasters warned the conditions posed an extremely dangerous situation for firefighters. Fuck, man. My heart goes out to those guys. That is a tough job. Thank God they're doing it. Quote, the Loyalton fire to the east of Sierra Valley exploded most impressively this afternoon with a very large pyrocumulus and reports of fire tornadoes. Now, couldn't you use a better word than impressively? I mean, I understand that these weather nerds get excited, but I mean, literally, the Loyalton fire to the east of the Sierra Valley

exploded most impressively. How about most menacingly or most horrifyingly impressively put aside the fire nerd new thing excitement when you're talking about a fucking fire tornado fire tornado add that to the list of, hey, maybe this is happening. But the skies on fire is a bit from my special. And, yeah, that's all I'm going to say. Fire tornadoes. I watched the Rush documentary on Netflix.

Some of you know how I feel about Rush. I'm mostly the worst. I'm just mostly dismissive. I don't say they suck, really. I just, you know, I know they're great musicians. I know they're their own thing. Look, they were very much around when I was a kid. Some of you know that I used to work for a catering company

that catered the Rush concert, and I had to go drive up into my manager's house a half hour to get Alex Leifson a fan so he would be comfortable in his dressing room while he noodled around on his classical guitar warming up. And I thought he was a dick, but now I watch the documentary. If I got anything out of it, it's that I had the wrong perception of him as a guy who had to go do something for his boss to accommodate this guitar player. I just assumed that, is that how you say

his name? Alex Leifson, that he was kind of a dick, but he's not. That's the one thing I got out of the Rush documentary. Here's what I got out of it. Because people talk, they asked me about Rush, they asked me why. And I talked to Getty. Getty's a Jew. He's the son of Holocaust survivors. The backstory is interesting. They're all interesting. I didn't know that Neil Peart wrote a lot of the songs, these concept records. They were around when I was a kid. They were popular with a certain... Look, they're a great band to a certain type of person.

I am not that type of person. I'm not going to pass judgment. I'm not going to say who those people are, but you know who you are. And the people who know you know who you are. You're Rush people, and that's okay. They're on the spectrum. I don't mean the autistic spectrum.

I mean the nerd spectrum. You know, the Dungeons and Dragons, maybe on the outside, the pro wrestling, but they somewhere fall in between Dungeons and Dragons and pro wrestling on the nerd spectrum. That's all I'm saying about Rush. I don't need the stories. I don't, you know, I understand the honesty of the outsider and the journey of the heart through a fairy tale story.

I understand. Look, man. fairy tale story. I understand. Look, man. I get it. But I will say that I came away from the documentary with a deeper respect and understanding and appreciation. And even I like the guys about Rush. Did not inspire me to revisit their music.

The jury's in on that. But that's just taste. That's my own personal taste. Okay? Can we leave it at that? Hey, Google, what year was Rush 2112 recorded? 2112 was recorded in February 1976.

Its centerpiece is a 20-minute title track, a futuristic science fiction song that takes up the entire... Okay, thank you. There you go. See, that's where they lose me. 20-minute science fiction song. Alright. Kerry Washington. She's nominated for four Emmy Awards, including

Outstanding Actress in a Limited Series or a Movie for Little Fires Everywhere, which Lynn Shelton directed a few of and was an executive producer on. She's nominated in three different categories as a producer, Outstanding Limited Series

for Little Fires Everywhere, Outstanding Television Movie for American Son, and Outstanding Variety Special for Live in Front of a Studio Audience. This is me and Kerry Washington coming up. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now.

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See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5pm start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. whirlwind of press that we've been doing lately, this is the thing my husband's most excited about, just so you know. Really? It's the only podcast that matters for him. This and maybe like Fresh Air. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I got a fan in your husband. That's nice. Yeah. Well, why don't we, I mean, I wouldn't mind starting with that just so, you know, if I'm going to cry, we can do it, you know, upfront. You know, with Little Fires. I mean, obviously you had a big role in producing it and, you know, I was here and with Lynn through

the whole process, but what, what was that process? How did, how was working with Lynn Shelton and how did she get that job? Oh man, I didn't think you were going to dive right into that, but I'm happy you are. Yeah, because like, what happens is if I put it off, you know, and then like, if I start, if I start crying, and whenever it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. But I agree, let's go straight in. Because I heard about like, you know, I know what it was like, you know, when she come home from a day at work, and how exciting it was, and working with you and working with Reese and

all the kids. I mean, I just heard it from her perspective and from her point of view, but I know there was something about going into it because I saw all the effort she put into putting together the pitch to get the job. So we had a huge problem, right? The problem we had in making this show was we were telling a lot of different narratives. We were telling story about a lot of different kinds of people thrown into a situation where they had to deal with each other, people with vastly different worldviews and points of perspective.

And so finding a director, you can create a writer's room that holds space for all of those perspectives, but finding a director who could hold all of that vision and all of those different entry points and with the right amount of love and also vision and ability to execute creatively, it was really challenging. And it was stressful to be like, how do we find that? We would rather it be a woman because this is such a woman-centered story. How do we find that person? And Lynn literally walked into the room and solved our problem. She was the answer. She just was the answer. And she came in. I have it. I keep it in my closet next to other precious objects. She created this amazing lookbook for the show. Yeah, I know.

I saw her do that. You were probably there as she was cutting images and pasting. But she brought this beautiful beautiful and it just was like you know in our in our challenge of how do you translate this brilliant novel to take something that's two-dimensional and turn it into a visual medium yeah again she presented this this book of visual imagery that was like oh she's on this like she's she's already ahead of us in figuring out the how and then she proceeded to the how. And then she proceeded to, I will never forget it, she proceeded to walk us through all of the important characters

and explain how she could relate to their life experience. And it was so generous because she was telling us stories about her childhood, about when she became a mother, about her marriage, about her relationship now, about all of these different entry points for how she understood, how she knew these characters and what they were going through. And so it was like, she's it. I mean, I remember the relief of sitting there

and we were all crying in the meeting because we were all sharing our personal stories and i just remember thinking like this like we're we're done thank god we can now make this show and was like in in you putting together the character of mia did uh did lynn's experiences she was photographer, she was sort of an artist, she kind of did that New York thing for a while. Did you guys talk about that? Yeah, absolutely. A lot of that was in the lookbook. And her love of visual artists and how they work and the art itself was so evident in that meeting.

And yeah, it felt like we all had a love for the 90s. But she had a love for that New York in the 90s and that time in art, you know, that like the approach to realism. And, you know, she just really she related to all of that. And I think there was a bit of a connection between the way that Mia worked as a visual artist and the way that Lynn works, worked as a filmmaker in terms of like looking for the truth, looking for the real and not afraid to reveal the things that society might say is unattractive, that that that raw truth is what's most beautiful. I think that was so much of how Lynn worked as a filmmaker. So to have Mia articulate those values as a visual artist,

I think was part of an expression of Lynn. Yeah, I thought the show came out great. Did you? I really did. And we had two other directors on the project, but they worked within the visual vocabulary that Lynn set up. Like, she set the culture and vision for the show. I guess that's what the director who does the first one does, right? That's right. And particularly for Lynn, because she did the first one, she did two in the middle, and she did our finale. So she really was, she set the tone for the show. She was our opener, our closer. She kept us on the mark. just the fire that was a how you gonna do the fire and then there's the the whole bit the whole the whole piece of burning the um the artwork too the big picture that took some doing so fun i mean that's what i that's one of the fun things too about working with lynn

i i just want to keep saying is is that um she's so in love with the process of filmmaking, right? And so like, it's and that kind of thing is contagious. And it's so important on a show like this, where the hours are long, the material is challenging. You know, it was a hard show to do. It's period, you know, it's in the 90s. But her like, like, she was so happy at Video Village with her headphones on and like, there's it you just felt like, oh, she's in her sweet spot. And I know she had lots of sweet spots because I know, you know, how much she loved life and loved being a mom. But you could see that that sitting at Video Village,

it was like her zone. With her hat on. Yes, exactly. So like, but now you like directing you know I've done it a little bit and and I I don't I don't feel it takes a certain person to do it and I know that you're doing it more you know after acting for so for so long you know what is it about directing especially directing tv that that compels you to to want to do that you know I don't it about directing, especially directing TV that compels you to want to do that? You know, I don't. It's interesting. I'm not.

And I think this is true of Lynn, too, because I love that Lynn was a director who said no a lot. Oh, yeah. She really only did things that spoke to her. Right. Also is a huge compliment that she was so drawn to our show because her standards were so high. And I think there's a little bit of that belief system for me and that I'm not, at this point, I don't, I'm not so bitten by the directing bug that I want to just like be directing all the time, be a director for high, travels to different shows and works that muscle. But on shows that I really love, I'm drawn to be a part of the team that makes it happen. You know, like it's like watching a winning basketball team.

Like if it's a show, you're like, oh, I'd love to come. And, you know, especially in television, it's like you're not, unless you're doing what Lynn did in directing the pilot. You're really coming in to say like, oh, there's a vision here. Sure. I love it. I have so much respect for it. I'd love to come in and help. Yeah. And also you get to you get to sort of learn on the job. Yeah. You know, it's already got a look and they got a good DP and, you know, you want to kind of, you know, an easy birth into directing. That's right. That's right. And I, I have, I've been learning so much working on shows that I love. Um, and so I'll just keep doing that until I feel like I have something of

my own to say as a director. Do you, do you understand the sort of like, uh, the line above the line or below the line or, you know, where, yeah know i right right there i was confused and i'm still confused i mean i imagine i think i can wrap my brain around it but i can't i you know it all seems complicated to me yeah but you got all that stuff i think i'm also like as an actor i've always been really nosy and like really curious about what other people are doing and how to do it. And, and a little bit with a lens toward like, how can we be as efficient as possible, but mostly a lens toward like, how can we be as successful in, you know, telling the story we're trying to tell. So I think that has made me want to have my hands on more than just acting because I enjoy the team effort. I enjoy that. And so I really love working with Lynn because like me, she understood that team morale was so important to getting it done. Yeah. Driving toward excellence and reaching for excellence,

but also being kind and considerate of your fellow artists and artists. Oh, she definitely was that. Yeah. And there was a lot of people on that shoot too. A lot of people involved. A lot of cooks in the kitchen. Yeah. And that's a big shift because she's doing her little movies and there's no committee there that she has to walk back to.

Yep. I know that that was challenging. Also, because it's not your normal committee. It's like very opinionated Kerry Washington and Reese Witherspoon and our very opinionated partners in our companies and our very opinionated showrunner, Liz Tegelard, all of us are coming to it with our different perspectives about what's most important. And she had this- What was it for you?

What? What was most important? There were a couple of things for me, but I think the decision to make Mia and Pearl black was a huge undertaking. It wasn't just switching a Crayola crayon. It really impacted the story that we were telling. They weren't black in the book?

No. Oh, I didn't know that. Um, so that getting that right, like making sure that that adjustment impacted the narrative in the right ways was really important to me. Oh my God. How do you even have a show if they weren't black? Because it's a lot about class. No, I get it. characters because they're black inform you know the the sort of elements of of race and class you know which is which are not conversations really had in this country but you know class is never had and and races is you know a difficult conversation for most people yeah and how they are

connected oh yeah the most taboo. Right. So getting all of that right, like honoring what Celeste had presented in the novel that was so brilliant around class and parenting and identity and history and secrets and family, like all of that, getting that right, but also making sure that we were honoring this adjustment around race and protecting it. And that was super important to me. Wow. And also, similarly, making sure that we were taking care of the Bebe character as well. I think in the ways that Mia takes care of Bebe in the novel, I think I, Carrie, really felt responsible for taking care of,

of Lulu, but also of taking care of that storyline and making sure that we were telling it in the right way. And this is the, Oh, the, the Asian woman, BB.

Yes. Right. Yes. That, that was a very, you know, that your, your characters,

you know, probably, it seems that the most, it's interesting that you have Reese doing her thing, you know, your character is probably, it seems the most, it's interesting that you have Reese doing her thing, you know, with the limitations that she's created in that character to define it. And then your, you know, your blind spots are different. But there's this sort of anger at the core of both of these characters. And, you know, using, you using Bebe as this sort of this this this way to fight that's right right and and and then reese failing to you know to to bring her kids to fight really on her behalf and her using her friend you know the the woman that's adopted rosemary's character

using that so it was like we were both working through these kind of avatars to battle each other around values and identity and class, you know? It's very interesting that, like, you know, just when you say that, like that these characters

weren't black to begin with in the way that there was sort of an ease in which the children, you know, kind of connected without judgment, you know, that there wasn't a lot of that. But there was so, you know, it wasn't unspoken among the adults, but the kids just sort of like kind of moved through that, those race dynamics without, you know, really paying that much attention to them. And that's what kids do.

Yeah. Until they get taught otherwise from us. Right. And, you know, it's funny. We had extraordinarily talented kids. That cast was so, so good. But the performances we got out of them were in large part because of Lynn. I mean, she really invested.

Because each and every one of those actors, even the most experienced of them, they surprised themselves with the depths of work that they were able to bring forward. And it required that. The show required that. It was really intensely beautiful work that they were able to to create and lynn she built like a container for them to explore

and work on character and do their actors homework yeah she'll get it out of you she'll get yeah yeah and she did and it's not easy with kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like they really liked her. So where did you, where were you a kid? What do you come from? Um, so I come from New York city from the Bronx is where I grew up. Now what part of the Bronx, you know, the Bronx a little, I mean, I, I used to, I lived in New York and I know like when there, I know there's some beautiful parts of the Bronx and I know there's some rougher parts of the Bronx. I know there's middle, I'm from the middle. I'm sort of, um, I'm not from Riverdale, but I'm not from the South Bronx. I'm kind of like the central East Bronx. Was your family there for years? My mom grew up in the Bronx.

My mom grew up in the south Bronx. And her parents were immigrants. They came to this country from Jamaica through Ellis Island. Do you remember your grandparents? I do. I remember my grandmother on my mom's side. My grandfather passed when my mother was a teenager. mom's side my grandfather passed when my mother was a teenager did she have that um kind of presence of a of a jamaican person my grandmother yeah yes but she was very um you know jamaica was

colonized by the brits and so there there's a lot of jamaicans who are like like my grandmother had a picture of the queen hanging in her apartment. She was very, very British Jamaican. Yeah. Like had tea every single day. She wasn't wealthy, but she, she at all, by any means, she came, you know, she had show money when she came through Ellis Island to prove that she had cash, but it was money borrowed from another family member that she had to give away as soon as she got here. So she, but she was culturally very British West Indian and very formal and stoic, very stoic, which my mother is as well. Oh, really? Yeah. They both have that. Like my mother's, my mother has a real elegance about her and she's a retired professor of education.

She's very smart. But stoic. Because you're like the fucking opposite of stoic. Oh, I know. I joke that my mother spent her whole life trying to figure out how to not have a feeling. And then she had this kid who was just like a walking id, like a walking feeling. And it was a nightmare.

But because my mom was an educator, she was like, I think a lot of this was unconscious, but she was like, I don't know how to process these feelings. So you're going to go and do that children's theater company thing. Oh, that's hilarious. And you can have lots of feelings at the boys and girls club with the, with the children's theater shows and not have them at home. So that was sort of, you know, what happened. I had,

I had these creative outlets where I could like be this crazy theater kid with, with all of these big feelings. But you always had that because I mean, you, I mean, when I watch you, it's interesting because I've seen you in many things and I, that? Because I mean, when I watch you, it's interesting because I've seen you in many things. And I watched American Son. And I've watched Will Fires. I've seen you in Jang. I've seen you in other movies. But it was interesting because I watched Confirmation as well. And it was interesting to see you play somebody that existed. Yeah. You know, because when i watch you act i mean

it's even though the characters are different you know i can see you go through many emotions in any moment you know it's the way you do it because you're that engaged emotionally but the work of playing anita you really you had it sort of like you couldn't do it pull it in right you couldn't do the uh the the uh the carry tricks it's true it's very true she's very um and i love her i mean i still talk to anita i just talked to her this weekend it's great you did a great job oh thank you i mean she's so funny it's one of the greatest compliments i've ever had in my life as an artist is when we finished that movie she said i didn't know i had a walk until i saw you do my walk i guess i have a walk i said you absolutely have a walk are you kidding me she was like i didn't know until i saw you do it and i said oh my goodness that's me um so i it fun. It was fun to play somebody so pulled in and reserved and like,

she's just bubbling inside all the time, but, but the lid stays on. And it was a really good exercise for me, particularly like in the middle of the scandal years, because Olivia Pope is so expressive and so big and, you know, wields all her power. Um, and so Anita was, was the opposite. How much did you have to do with, uh, with, uh, creating that character? How much, you know, wields all her power. Um, and so Anita was, was the opposite. How much did you have to do with, uh, with, uh, creating that character? How much, you know, how, uh, I mean, obviously it's your character, uh, on scandal, but did, you know, was there a lot of input in terms of, of, you know, who that person would be to, to sort of carry that show?

Yeah, it felt like a, it felt like a dance, like a marriage between myself and Shonda, but never linguistically. Like the words were always hers. Right. Um, but how I embodied them and the choices, like I made a, and in fact,

it was a dance between Shonda and I am, and dare I say Lynn Paolo, who also did costumes on little fire. She was our costume designer and scandal. And the wardrobe really was such, um, a vital way of how I expressed who Olivia was. So Lynn and I were also really, really hands on in creating that character.

But all the words came from Shonda. So you went to the theater school when you were like, was it kindergarten? Did you start or was it the children's theater is what you did? It was just like an after school, basically after school. There was one in the Bronx called Happy Medium that was, you know, a Bronx children's theater company

where we did like Pinocchio and the Velveteen Rabbit. I played a rabbit or a boat. And then there was another really amazing children's theater company in New York City called TADA. It's been around forever. What's it called? It's TADA, T-A-D-A.

Okay. And so I joined that company when I was about 12. And I also did a lot of theater and education work, working with like adolescent health centers creating content. This was, you know, in the early nineties. So creating content around safer sex issues and homosexuality and drug abuse, like, you know, peer to peer education through theater. So I did, I did that work for almost a decade. Wait, did that start when you were in high school? Yes. I joined that company when I was, i think like just before my 14th birthday it's a

company called star theater i think now it's called night star and um and that work was really amazing because what we did was we created the show ourselves we wrote these skits that we would do in different schools and community centers and church basements. But after we did the show, then we would stay in character and talk to the audience. And how we really got the information across to audiences was by engaging in conversation with them. And we'd say, well, you come up and show me how to do it. But we stayed in character. And so that was some of the most intense actor training that I got, really, because sort of like what Lynn did with these kids, it was like, do I know everything about this character? Do I,

do I know what my favorite breakfast is? Do I know how I go to sleep or what book I'm reading or how I met my boyfriend or if his mother likes me or not? Like, have I really done all of my actors homework so that I can engage with an audience member? And when they ask me a question, I know how to respond organically. Right. And ostensibly, this is to teach kids about the topic of the show. It's an educational thing. That's right. And so like, so a lot of these kids are probably looking at you and they're learning about what you want them to learn about, but they're also probably

getting off on the idea of acting as well. So you're inspiring them to, uh, to not only have safer sex or whatever the, the agenda was, but they're probably getting a kick out of the idea that you're holding on to these characters. Were you playing grownup characters? No, we were playing teenagers. So like, for example, we do a scene where in the scene, I'm playing a 16 year old girl and my boyfriend really wants to be had sex, but he doesn't want to use a condom. And I'm trying to talk him into using a condom. And the scene ends kind of open ended, right? Like it's unresolved. And then we go on to the next scene. And so then in the Q&A portion, I'm like, well, what should I do? What should I say to him? Should I like, what are my risks?

You know, like you're really engaging to get information out there. Have you met anybody in your adult life who come up to you and said, I saw you in one of those shows? Years ago, not recently, because it was in New York. So when I, when I was an adult living in New York, like working in a restaurant and teaching yoga and do teaching, like all of my side hustles, I used to meet people who, who had seen that show. Wait a minute. You had a yoga side hustle? hustle oh yeah I had all kinds of side hustles but I did I went so after undergraduate school I actually lived in India for a while wait okay wait so so you graduate high school did you do plays in high school I did I did so I did that

professional theater company all through high school. The educational theater company. Yes. Right. Yeah. And then I, I got an agent when I was like 13. Really? I did. I still, it was one of those totally, like I stumbled into it. A friend of a friend was really good friends with a casting director and I read for her for something and she was like, well, you're too young for this role, but you should really have an agent. And so I didn't know what any of this meant. I didn't know that I had struck gold by being exposed to these connections.

But so I got an agent and I used to, my mom would let me audition as long as my grades didn't drop. Right. And she was the opposite of a stage mom. My agent used to call the apartment and if my mom put to the phone and it was about an audition she would say like i am not carrie's secretary like call back and be done oh my god your mother sounds if she wants to go on an audition she has to manage it herself she's tough man yeah but i did and did you did you you do any film or television work?

I did. I did like an ABC After School special when I was like 13 or 15. Oh, yeah? What was that character? It was like a, you know, it was friend of a friend. I think it was like best friend number one or something like that. And cheerleader character. And I got, you know, I did a couple commercials that were really impactful financially for my family you know we were living in the bronx upper working like working class

upper working class what's it what'd your dad do my dad was a real estate broker up there um yeah in the bronx hustle and, exactly. Mostly rentals. Yeah. And, and yeah. How many siblings you got? I'm an only. Oh, you're one of them. I am one of those rare creatures, but, but I will say my mom was one of seven. So I have a lot of cousins and like we, like in the summers, we all live together in upstate New York.

And so I was really close to my cousins. But like, what is the pressure of the only child? Because I've talked to a few only children. And every time I talk to him, just trying to be empathetic, I try to picture myself as an only child. self as an only child. And for me, for some reason, it causes a tremendous amount of anxiety in the whole idea of like, well, I'm the only one, so I better not disappoint them. But no one really validates that. Or is that true? That's absolutely true for me. That's totally my experience. I now, I don't worry about it as much now as they're living in my guest house in COVID.

They're there? They are. They are. are oh that's nice um but for most of my life there there was the combination of like a lot of pressure like you have to fulfill all the dreams and also there's nobody to like distract them you know it's not like if you break a lamp they're off yelling at another kid so they don't notice like there's so much attention which is good I think the level of attention my you know to have my mother's attention served me in many ways in terms of my intellect and like knowing that I matter to her um and I think that's a really profound thing for a kid to know. Yeah. I guess it's,

it's like when you're the only one, it's pretty apparent. You know, you would be pretty apparent if you didn't and probably very apparent if you do, but it's nice that you know enough that she was emotionally detached, but that did not imply that she did not care about you. Yes. And I, it's also like, I didn't, I don't even know that I would have said that she did not care about you. Yes. And it's also like I didn't, I don't even know that I would have said that she was emotionally detached. Like I just feel like she is, she's just not expressive.

So like I know she has the feeling. Right, right, right, yeah. But it's like, we were watching a movie the other night and I turned to them and I was like, isn't this amazing? It's a movie that I had seen before that they hadn't. Isn't this amazing? No response.

Isn't this amazing? I mean, this is classic only child. No response. Isn't this amazing? And my mom turned and said, yeah, yeah. I'm back to the movie. And my husband laughed so he was like, I just got every window into your childhood that I ever needed. Took three times. Yeah. And bigger and bigger each time. What movie?

It was the Lion King, like the live action Lion King that they hadn't seen yet. But I was like, the lions are talking to each other. Isn't this amazing? The technology of it. Yeah. So was that one of the reasons why it seems like, I don't know if it's overachieving, but it seems like you had a very kind of eclectic approach to, you know, your education and what you wanted to do. So what, you do all this acting in high school and then what happens? I mean, were they, were they supportive or did they want you to do that? Did they think it was a life?

No, they were, my mother's worst nightmare was that I was going to pursue acting professionally. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. Like what a nightmare because she didn't, you know, they just, they didn't want to have a starving artist for a child. You know, they didn't want those worries for me. That classic idea of like, I just don't want you to suffer. I don't want you to struggle. Yeah, it's concern usually. It's not judgment.

Yeah. And so I really, you know, I didn't, I applied to a bunch of conservatory schools like Carnegie Mellon and Tisch at NYU. But I knew I wasn't going to go to any of those schools. I had to go somewhere where I was going to get a liberal arts degree so that when I graduated, I would have options. Right. And I actually wound up going to GW in DC on an acting scholarship, which was like the best of all worlds.

Cause I didn't even have to major in acting, but I had to take a certain number of acting credits each semester. And I was required to audition for every single production. Like I didn't have a choice on whether or not I wanted to do a play. I know it's like being on the basketball team. You don't get to choose what games you play. Like you're just, you're in,

if the coach calls you in, you're up. Yeah. And so that was really good training for me also. Cause it was, it really taught me a lot about auditioning and sort of auditioning with detachment and what's mine is mine. And what is it isn't.

And it was also the first time, even though I had worked professionally as a kid, like, yes, it was the first time in my life that I thought I am paying for my education through my talent, quote unquote. Like maybe this is something that I should think about long-term pursuing because obviously people aren't willing to give me a lot of money like i'm

patient doing this that's a good that's a nice lesson to uh reveal itself to you like yeah i don't know that i would have thought that like you know like i i trick these people i wonder if i could it was a little bit of that like these people people are going to pay for my education and all I have to do is stand up on the stage and sing. Right. Great. Game. Game on.

I'll do that for the rest of my life. Tell me where to stand. I'll be, I'll find my light. If you're going to give me money to do that. Great. Great. I'm so glad I have this talent because now I could enjoy my life.

Well, that's, well, that's a great realization to have. What did you study, though? You studied? I invented a major. I invented this interdisciplinary major

because I was really obsessed with this idea. I think because I did all that sort of arts, activism, educational theater stuff in high school, and I was really, really fascinated with the idea of how performance impacts culture. And, and also like, what we so there were a couple things. In my in my sort of life of an artist, I was really interested in how performance impacts culture, like what performance says about us as a society, how we can shift society and culture through narrative. So, you know, what performance reveals to us about culture.

Like, and when you say performance, what did that cover? Well, like when we're doing these shows in these high schools, it was so fascinating to me that, that we were able to shift ideology and behavior of young people by being their mirror. And what did it take to be their mirror? We had to look like them and sound like them. And the music that we used in our show had to be the music that they were listening to in their pop radio stations. Like just that examination of the power of being a mirror

and showing people who they want to be and who they don't want to be, who they can be. So all of those dynamics. And then also, in my personal life, I was actually going through an experience very similar to Pearl in Little Fires. In that, for seventh grade, I left my public school in the Bronx

and I started going to this very, very elite private high school in Manhattan. Um, and sort of experiencing all the culture shock of what that meant and looks like. And I started also primary element of that. Well, I mean, like what was the primary, uh, element that you recognized? Were you othered? Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was culture shock for me to go to this school and to see how these kids lived. And, and I started to think about also kind of, I think, unconsciously at first, but unconsciously as I got older, the performativity of identity in everyday life, sort of that Goffman-esque idea of, you know, you perform your identity through how you dress and how you walk and the words you use and, and, you know, the ways that you express yourself, because the people that I grew up with in the Bronx, you know, I would get on the subway for 35 minutes, but they were countries apart. They were worlds unto themselves, how people dressed and ate and talked in the Bronx, in my neighborhood,

my family, my friends, versus how people talked and ate and dressed in this place that I went to school eight hours a day. They were universes apart. Sure. And so that also started to make me think about like, who am I? How do I hold on to myself in both spaces? What parts of myself are authentic to me? What parts are performance? Like all of that was sort of up for me.

That sounds like that's every morning for me, really. Exactly. Me too, sometimes. Me too. And so in a sense, this major you created was, along with your experience acting and learning that stuff, was a way to sort of answer some fundamental questions about yourself. Yes, to answer fundamental questions about myself and also to explore fundamental curiosities about what it means, like what the power of narrative is. And what was the major? What was it? So it was called Performance Studies.

Okay. And I sort of based it on two different graduate programs. This was for my undergraduate degree. Right. There was a graduate program at the time at Northwestern and a graduate program at NYU, both around performance studies. They were slightly different programs. The program at Northwestern was a little bit more like anthropology, sociology based. And the program at NYU was a little bit more like dramatic lit and art, like fine arts based.

And so I sort of combined influences from both of those programs to pick courses at GW in sociology and anthropology and theater and psychology. And so I combined all of those classes together to form this major. And did you find that it successfully addressed your questions and the education you wanted? I think in a lot of ways it did. I mean, it definitely, I mean, in some ways, I think it served its purpose because I finished college, right? Like it was, I was able to study the things that I cared about. And I left school with a liberal arts degree. So I could go and substitute teach as one of my side hustles, you know, which you can't do with a fine arts degree. Sure. And it taught how to think critically in a lot of these areas. Yeah. I ended up doing that with my college education. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do.

And then towards the end of it, I stayed five years undergrad. I was sort of like, I looked at all my courses and I'm like, well, what have I got? What did I do? What did I do here? And then you got like two more semesters. I'm like, well, I'm two classes away from a film crit minor. I'll do that. And then then I'm like right up against the English major. Good. And you just. So that's right. That's right. Because like if you're not looking for, you know, some sort of practical education that will lead to a job, you know, it's sort of an expressive thing that you're doing in a way. Yeah. And I do think it has served me. Like I think about even, you know, earlier in my career, taking on a character like Della B. Robinson in Ray, Ray Charles's way, you know, there were so many people I remember in my peer group at the time

saying like, why would she stay? Like, why would that woman stay? He's cheating on her. He's doing drugs. Like she needs to get out of there. But for me, like I had the background of sociology and history and psychology to say like, here's why she stayed. Like what are her options in 1950, whatever to leave? She has no education. Like what are the psychological issues she's dealing with that make her feel like she has to stay like to use some of those? Sure. I mean, in those, in those questions are there, there are similar questions in the Anita Hill story, really in terms of why she didn't act sooner. And then also like, you know, I would imagine

that so much of that experience, like, I can't imagine really in hearing what you're saying about your personal life, what, you know, actually performing American Son must have been like every day. You know, to lose an only child, to also deal with, you know, elements of trying to, of struggling with identity for whatever reason. And then the elements of, of, you know, private education versus public education. I mean, it sounds like all of that stuff was just like on fire in that show. So that must've been quite a pinnacle of some kind in terms of performing.

Yeah, it really was. I mean, I just left my guts out on the stage and then on our soundstage making the film every single performance. Yeah. That show ripped me apart. That was something else, man.

And who played that police detective? Eugene. Oh, man. He's like a classic theater actor. He's worked with August Wilson. He's worked with the greats. Eugene Lee is like a black theater treasure. And so when he said yes to us, I was just so over the moon. and every night no matter where i was in that performance when he came on stage i knew i could land the plane like no matter how i had been able to like really hook into the performance or not when he walked on that stage i was like

we're gonna land this plane and it's gonna be devastating and it's gonna like he's gonna make it happen no I felt that. I mean, I felt cause like the lead was good and the other cop was good and you're great. And you know, I could see you kind of putting this stuff out there and then like he comes in out of nowhere and just sort of like the focus,

but it eviscerates it's crazy. And the way he lays it out at the end, it's like, Oh my God. But it's like, that's the way it would have went down. I mean, how else is that going to guy? And it like, cause there's the way it would have went down i mean how else is

that gonna guy and it like because there's a way to read his his you know what he's telling the story at the end of what happened as as some something almost vindictive given the scene before but it's just matter of fact that's right that's right so before like i know you were on a time budget here so i wanted to talk about something I've never talked about with anybody. You studied with Michael Howard? I did. I did, too. You did?

I almost always forget his name. I was there for three or four months. Wow. But it's such a unique... He's such one of those old, he's like this, um, he, I didn't know what, you know, where he came from or why he came from, but he seemed kind of Strasburg adjacent. Like he, he modeled himself after what was sort of some kind of classic old Jewish method trip. Yep. But like when you got out of college, like we didn't get the trip to India.

How long were you in India? I was in India for like eight months. Doing what? So I studied in South India. I studied traditional Indian theater and culture. It was sort of like the real world India. It was a program out of University of Wisconsin at Madison. You did graduate, you were, went to graduate school? No, this was sort of my postgraduate study work. And it was a bunch of scholars, you know,

students who we all went and we were studying traditional Indian arts in the morning. And in the afternoon, we were all studying Malayalam, the language together. And we would have these incredible guest speakers come and lecture to us in our house. And we would go to these cultural events and trips. And we all lived in this house together. It was amazing. So I studied yoga and Kalari Payet,

which is this traditional Indian martial art. I'm fascinated with India and I know nothing about it. It's a very mystical place to me. Just from like, I don't know, the music, the colors, the food, but I don't know anything. It was magical for me because I was like, I think it was also at a point in my life where I was really like deep into a spiritual journey for myself, like really figuring out what God was for me. Did you figure that out? It's a daily unfolding. figuring out what God was for me. Did you figure that out? It's a daily unfolding. It's like any relationship. It requires daily maintenance and listening. That struggle for self and struggle for God. Those are rough ones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I grew up in the Bronx. There's like a liquor store on every corner. And in India,

there's a temple on every corner. There's a, it's like, there's so much grounding in God, like interwoven. God is life. That's sort of a sad juxtaposition. So this was in between graduating from undergrad and going and starting. And then you come back to New York and that's when you start studying with Michael. How many, how long did you study study I met Michael actually halfway through college halfway through undergrad I did I did the summer conservatory at Michael Howard Studios and that

summer was the summer that I was like you know what I think I'm gonna try to do this acting thing um because I spent the whole summer in a conservatory with other actors and I loved it just doing acting all day every day all day long and I was like this is it like this is I love this this is my happy place and so then I went back and finished my last two years of undergraduate school went to India and then came back and just like hit the pavement trying to get work as an actor but I would take my scene study and my other movement classes and whatever else I could get at the studio. With Michael? With Michael and also with his protege, Larry Singer. It's so funny because that's such weird memories. I can't even really remember

when it was. It must have been like, you know, in the early 90s. You know, I don't know why I ended up at Michael Howard. Maybe a girlfriend I had was there, but like, I, I, I just liked it. It was that culture of, you know, almost, you know, acting teacher as, as cult leader, almost that there was this people surrounding him, but it was a very loving environment. No, no. I thought he was great. Yeah. Yeah. He felt like a, I sound just like somebody in the cult, right? No, no, I don't know. Like a lot of people don't know about him, but he's like he's a sweetheart of a cranky Jew. Yeah. You know, and, you know, as a younger, more angry Jew, like I can trust the the sort of sensitive cranky Jew to guide me a bit.

And there were a couple of moments in that class that I that I really remember. And and so that that was really remember. And, and so that, that was the journey. So you were, you know, doing restaurant work, doing scene work, and then, and that's just when you hit the pavement, trying to act. Yeah, I gave myself, after I graduated from college, I gave myself one year. I said, if I can get some sort of significant, meaningful acting job in this year, then I'll let myself continue to pursue it. And if I don't, then I got to give it up and I got to go to law school or grad school or something.

And did you tell your parents that? Were you like, this is the deal? I don't even remember whether I told them or not, but it was the deal I made with myself. I probably did. As you say, I must have, because I was always like justifying and making them comfortable with my choice. So now you're up for this Emmy, you're working a lot, you've worked with great directors, and it seems like you're putting a lot of your focus into producing. Like I didn't get to watch the fight, but what is it that you're interested in putting out in the world now?

I mean, I mean, little fires is one thing, but as a producer, as somebody who has a little juice and a little power. Yeah, I think, I mean,

I think little fires is really, you know, I'm, I'm as proud of my, our nomination as producer, as I am as an actor for little fires. And I have to say on that morning I was like unpacking my groceries and wiping down my groceries as we do in COVID to put them away and and my phone started blowing up and I was like you know celebrating and continuing to put

the groceries away and my publicist called me and she said, Lynn got nominated and I just lost my shit. Like that was when I just was like, had everything I had to stop. I was so grateful for her acknowledgement in that way because she really put her whole heart into that show. she really put her whole heart into that show. Yeah. So I guess, you know, I wanna, I want to tell stories that,

that invite us to really see each other. You know, that for me is the thing. I feel like that's the power of film and television and theater is that it's a space where we can really we can create space to see each other and really hear you right is that like yeah and it should be like it's like going back to what you wanted to learn early on about mirroring and about you you know, the, the relationship between performance, you know, and culture and, and, and, and how do they feed each other? Is that like, I read that you were, you put a discussion guide in the playbill of American son. Now,

like what was the impulse to do that when you thought to do that or whoever thought to do that? What was the impulse to do that when you thought to do that or whoever thought to do that? What were you concerned about? You know, I was I knew how I felt when I got to the end of that show, when I got to the end of that script, that play, when I read it. And I just thought, you know, for us to put this out in the world, we have to take some responsibility in helping people process it. Like we're ripping open wounds and I want to give people a toolbox to be able to do something with all of those feelings. As I say it, I feel like, oh, I was being my mom. You can have those feelings, but let's make sure you're doing it in a constructive way.

And I just, I wanted to make sure, like the opportunity to have people step into Kendra's life, into that nightmare of a night, or the opportunity to have people like really get to know Elena and Mia and Evie and like that, that that shouldn't be taken lightly. That, that, that's people are in relationship with these characters and with these circumstances. And I just realized that like in, in the way that was structured, like I didn't realize until you just mentioned that, that the way her story is laid out and the way, and just the context of, of, of what's going on, it, it is designed to enable people that live completely different lives than that woman have empathy for her if they see it. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Right. And for people who see themselves in her to feel seen and valued and that they matter.

seen and valued and that they matter. And so all of that to me is really like precious work that I don't take lightly and that I want to be responsible in how we manage. You know, there are some shows that rip your heart open. You know, you think of a show like Hamilton, for example, Hamilton rips your heart out of your chest. But by the end of the show, there's resolve and you get to walk out feeling like at peace. And they're singing, you know, the end of the show, there's resolve and you get to walk out feeling like at peace. Yeah, and there's singing, you know, and that helps. Yes, and there's that. But our show didn't have any singing and it didn't have resolve.

It was like, here's the nightmare, deal with it. In American Son, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and Little Fires too. I mean, there was some resolve, but those characters go on. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well on yeah that's right yeah well great work you're doing great work and congratulations on the nomination and and on both of them and however how many how many are there three or two two i have four you have producing acting and

acting in something else no three producing and one acting great good. Good job. Yeah. I hope you win all of them. And I hope Lynn wins one. Oh, so great to talk to you. I pray for Lynn's win. I just want that for her. Cause I know she's up there celebrating with her hat on and that big laugh. Yeah,

I know. Right. No, it'll mean so much to her. I have the hat. So she, she, she doesn't have the hat.

I've got it. She has her own version up there. She does. Oh, yeah. She has all the clothes she wants. Yeah. And it'll mean so much to young filmmakers. I feel like she was such a heroic, independent filmmaker that to have her rewarded in this way would mean so much to young filmmakers who may feel nervous about really having their own voice and their own vision. I think that's true. I think it'd be great. And they set up a sort of a grant, you know, some people said, yeah.

And yeah, and her parents would love it. It would be great for everybody, her son, her ex-husband, every, it'd be, you know, the family. It would be a sweet thing for everybody. Yeah. Take care of yourself and thanks for talking. Thank you. Thank you.

You too. Thanks for having me. Okay. That was me and Carrie. Very charming, very talented person, great actress. She does everything. She's also nominated for four Emmy Awards. Actress in a Limited Series, Outstanding Television Movie, Outstanding Variety Special, and Outstanding Limited Series. Okay. Let's do some slow blues. Huh? Huh?ああああああ Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey lives.

La Fonda lives. Thank you.