WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1158 - Wendell Pierce

Episode Date: September 17, 2020

Wendell Pierce isn't doing a lot of acting during the pandemic, but he's keeping busy. He's spending more time with his 95-year-old father in New Orleans, he's hosting radio shows on a local station he bought, and he's helping to figure out the future of live theater. Wendell and Marc talk about his time on The Wire and the unique way he experienced that show. They also discuss what he learned playing Willy Loman last year and how Led Zeppelin and jazz helped him become a better actor. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuckaholics? What is happening? I'm Mark Maron, this is my podcast, welcome to it.

How's everybody doing? Are you okay? Today on the show, I talk to Wendell Pierce, and he's one of the great character actors. Alright, you know him as Bunk and the Wire. He was in Treme, he was in Selma, he was in Ray, he's a salma he was in ray he's a great actor recently played willie loman in death of a salesman over in london and he got a big nomination for that and we're going to talk about that um but i was it was an honor i ran into him somewhere and he knew me and i said i'd love to talk to you. And it was really a great conversation. So that's coming up. I did go to the doctor today or yesterday.

I'm sorry. I went yesterday. And this morning I'm going to get the lab work. But I got the basic stuff. And it's scary, man. I got my N95 mask on. I got my fucking plastic shield. And I walk in and there's a sort of a pre-vetting experience where they have someone who's dressed exactly like me, only she's actually a medical person wearing a plastic shield and a high-end mask and asking me questions and taking my temperature before I can go to the receptionist window.

Who's also wearing a visor plastic guard and a mask. I felt like, do you want me to work here? I'm suited up i'm ready but they're handling it very well and they're what and they're obviously pacing it out there was nobody there and my doctor who i hadn't seen in over a year yeah she came in we got to talking i told her about lynn and you know i i think that the most haunting thing is still that you know did i think it would be with anybody? Did I do all I can, you know, that last week?

And yeah, but we talked about it. And it's so funny because the nurse that came in earlier, they're going over these questions that they ask you to fill out a form, you know, and she's like, do you have feelings of hopelessness? I'm like, yeah, I do. Is it hard for you to enjoy things in life? Yeah. Isn't it for everybody? And she laughed. It's like, you can't, this is no time. There's no time to do it. Depression screening. I mean, am I like that? Am I depressed clinically? No. Do I feel hopeless? Yes. Is it hard to enjoy things? What things? What are our choices?

But I made it clear that it was all relative to what's happening, a reasonable response. But everything so far is checked out. I got, she did the finger banging and i guess that's okay up there and uh it went on just long enough um and i got uh all the other stuff seems good all the stuff that you can check no lumps or bumps or glands or breathing problems or you know reflexes seem good do the little hammer thing on the knees and i always feel pressure to like you know when they do the little reflex thing where you dangle your leg over and they pop your kneecap don't you feel like you need to kick it a little bit aren't you like i'm like do you want me to do anything because like i know nothing will happen if you don't do anything but they i don't know they see what they

see but i always feel like i i kick a little bit maybe a little too much but it's a natural reaction it's not it's not an actual reflex, but it's sort of like, is this what you want? I'll give you this. How about a little of that? Good. I'm glad I went to the doctor because that shows me that I want to live and I care about my health. I've been working out with this new trainer and it's doing something different. I'm going to be so ripped for nobody i'm just gonna look lean and good and i'm not gonna be on tv i'm just gonna enjoy it while i can before it all goes getting a little achy getting a little fucking little little crunchy bones and joints are getting a little crunchy it's happening i'm entering it here's the other thing now i don't want to bum anybody out but um you know along the lines of my conversation with um what was his name arthur jones and uh

matt fury and but more more so andrew morantz uh around uh you know the internet the q anon whatever and this is not a paid plug obviously but i did watch the social dilemma last night and um that's that's all of it right there man that it's all right there i mean it's stuff that many of you knew but i'm finding that many people don't know things uh even smart people don't know things there's definitely a drop-. There's definitely a shallowness. There's definitely a surface by which people engage surfaces, but the depth may not be there. And look, I've got it in certain areas too, but really sort of exploring in documentary style. It's a weird thing. It's a hybrid of a documentary and

some dramatic stuff there's some fiction acting with some actors you'd recognize to sort of make the point but when you really conceive of the amount of time money effort and momentum and just sort of high-tech brain fucking that goes into you you know maintaining engagement with pages with products uh is is kind of devastating in the in its hopelessness that the fact that all these tools have been creative these out these create that the fact that all these tools have been created these algorithms that uh sort of dictate our desires and our behavior, that they've hijacked our sort of dopamine response. And a lot of you know this about your phones. A lot of you talk and know that, like, what the algorithm does and how it caters to you, both in information and in sales, that's all of it.

That is the big business. It should be fucking illegal because it's just mining our desires and our attention for profit and you know now that it's entered the political realm and the political mind fuck is in and you have people using these tools that were put together you know for maybe good purposes but ultimately for profit are now being exploited for political ends uh it's it's your brain is vulnerable. Your brain is really no match for the technological infrastructure that is in place to fuck your brain from the palm of your hand.

From the machine you hold in your palm, your brain is being completely fucking hijacked and fucked with. And the computer. And you don't, you know, no matter how fortified you think you are, you're not. Because that's what plants that seed, man. That's that slippery slope. Those are the false equivalencies.

That's what puts the valve in there. That's what disrupts any sort of notion of any kind of barometer of actual truth and these fucking algorithms start hammering it with information and the human brain's no match for it i'm fortunate in that i don't really buy much and most of my online engagement is about me but i would watch it so maybe you can fucking mind your mind before they mine it. They're mining your mind, so maybe you should figure out how to mind your mind or do something. Save your fucking brain, man. Really.

I mean, it's scary, but you should know what you're up against. That's all I'm saying. How's it going? You all right? Everybody good? Also, I've been erratically doing breakfast time on Instagram. So keep an eye out for that. If you're on Twitter, you follow me on Instagram or you follow me on Twitter. I tend to do that sometimes just to connect.

And again, to sort of temper the grief, temper the haunted, temper the loss. I'm still feeling it you guys but i just um i'm just trying to not let it become hopelessness or depression i think i'm doing all right all right so listen So listen, Wendell Pierce has been nominated for a 2020 Olivier Award, which is basically the Tonys in London. He's nominated for Best Actor for playing Willie Loman in Death of a Salesman. And if you're in the New Orleans area, you can hear Wendell on WBOK AM 1230. We'll talk about that because he was responsible for reviving that historic radio station. And just a heads up, folks, you'll hear the sound change a little about halfway through. It changes a little bit about halfway through the interview because the battery on his mic ran out.

So he had to switch to the computer mic. It's not a big deal, but that's what happened. It's not your brain. It's not a big deal, but that's what happened. It's not your brain. It's the recording. So this is me talking to the lovely Wendell Pierce coming right up. We'll see you next time. by region see out for details death is in our air this year's most anticipated series fx's shogun only on disney plus we live and we die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's Shogun a new original series

streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply how you doing Mark? I'm good man it's so funny when you know you're just on just kind of at the door getting coffee.

I'm like, oh, what's going to happen? Because when you're an actor that I'm familiar with so well, I just assume like, oh, here we go. This is a scene. Something's happening. How you doing, man? Hey, listen. First of all, I haven't seen you since the Spirit Awards.

That's when we met, actually. Right. So my deepest, deepest sincere condolences. Thanks, man. Yeah, man. Yeah, it's been a rough couple months. Yeah, yeah. So I just wanted to recognize, man.

Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, you know, life's funny, right? You don't know. You certainly don't know what the hell is going to happen. I'm telling you, boy. How are you doing? Good, man. I mean, I can't complain.

I can, but I can't. It's just so frustrating. It gets crazy, and it's uplifting and frustrating all at the same time. How so? How is it uplifting? My dad's 95, man. Wow. So, you know, the universe has said, sit your ass down,

spend some time with your dad. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, you know, when I finished this, you know, I went and watched the basketball game with him last night and all of that. When I finished this, I get tested like weekly. And I'm in new orleans so i get tested like weekly so it's cool so you can spend time with so i can yeah spend time with him and if anything pops off is within days i know it you know right do you usually live out here yeah yeah i live in uh california i'm right

and uh in new york uh but this has also made me go okay you know you've been doing that whole you know i'm new york la uh-huh after katrina i came home so i'm here in new orleans so i'm tri-coastal i'm like okay dude you're at that point in your life you know cash out get the crib you want to be in yeah stay in one place right yeah so has this sort of uh forced that hand towards new orleans or what uh well i think new orleans i'm set in new orleans like you know this is this is the second home so i think the hardest part is like i think i'm gonna get rid of my place in uh in new york i can't even say it I have to whisper it and shit. I think I'm getting rid of my place in New York. You know?

I have not been in that sucker, man. I literally have not been in it, you know? Yeah, well, I mean. My neighbors always come back. I see them, like, twice a year. And they go, oh, man, we've watched this. We've seen you here. Yeah.

And you never. I'm, like, one of the oldest in the building now. Oh, it's an apartment. Yeah, yeah. Co-op on the Upper West Side. Yeah, I mean, it's a weird thing about having that second place. If you don't use it, it just becomes this thing that's kind of hanging over you. Yeah.

And I don't know that it's cool. And it's not even like it's hanging over you, but it's really weird, man. It brings out the best and the worst in you. Yeah. Because the best part is, like, I always have my crib in New York. Right. You know, in a there in a second, right? Was that the first place after New Orleans? Yeah, that was – I moved from New Orleans when I was 17, bought this crib.

This was my first house, you know. This is not my childhood home, but after Katrina, I did an initiative to bring back my neighborhood. So if I'm going to ask people to come back, I said, I'll buy the first one. So I bought the first house. Which neighborhood? It's just two blocks from my dad. He's 95.

I have around the clock care for him at home. Which neighborhood is this? Pontchartrain Park. And that was totally underwater? It was one of those neighborhoods? Completely. It was one of the deepest places. One of the deepest places. One of the deepest places.

But, you know, it was a part. Pudget Train Park is to New Orleans what Baldwin Hills is to L.A. So post-World War II, it was a place for middle class African Americans as a result of the advocacy of civil rights. Because you could not purchase a home. It's the height of segregation, the early 50s. All those FHA loans, as we're dealing with this racial reckoning and people ask what is systematic racism,

you could not, the deal was we'll give you these FHA loans and we'll restrict, make sure that Negroes can't get them. And so people said, okay, cool. That was the restriction that was put on them. And so how did that neighborhood come to be then? The advocacy of a great attorney, A.P. Turo, basing it on eliminating the prohibition of access to green space. You could only go to a park in New Orleans

once a week on Wednesday, Negro Day. You were arrested in a park, Mark, a park. Terrible. If you were caught any other day. And so this was access to green space. So it ended up, it was a compromise, separate but equal. We're just adjacent to what was then a white neighborhood. They put a ditch between us. I call it the DMZ. It's still there.

Yeah, it is. They're now, they're, you know, they're trying to retrofit it and all and say it's about flood protection. I'm like, that's not about flood protection. It was the ditch that didn't go anywhere. It had no outlet. And they're beautifying it. And so it was separate but equal. So we made something ugly into something beautiful. Puncher Train Park has a golf course right in the middle of it,

designed by Joseph Bartholomew, who was African-American. He designed most of the courses in New Orleans, City Park and Metairie Country Club, but he couldn't play on them. Oh, wow. Can you play? I don't call it playing. By the ninth hole, I stop and buy the beer. I'll drive the car and buy the beer.

I cannot play in L.A., man. I've never said put on a course. In L.A., it's like all I hear is, can I play through? Yeah, man. Yeah. I've never said put on a course. In LA, it's like, you know, all I hear is, can I play through? Yeah, yeah. Play through. Get out of the way. Get out of the way, man. God.

I can't even do the little three-par in Griffith Park, man. I'm like, damn, man. We're all carrying three clubs. Yeah. You know? I don't know anything about that sport, but I know that people like it. So how is the renovation going of the neighborhood? I mean, did it pick up since you bought?

Oh, yeah. We're like at 90%. Oh, wow. You know, still issues and stuff like that. But, you know, I was telling this to someone the other day. I said, Katrina was 15 years ago. It seems like yesterday, but it was 15 years ago. 15 years ago.

Uh-huh. It seems like yesterday, but it was 15 years ago. It shows you how a tragedy can be very impactful. You know, everything is pre-Katrina and post-Katrina in New Orleans a lot of times. Yeah, I did some sort of benefit show there. You know, it seemed like it should have been, I can't remember, it was a couple of years after, but it was like happened. It looked like it happened a week ago. I mean, it took a long time. Yeah. And you know, you have to fight all the elements of, you know, folks who do not, do not have your best interest at heart.

I'm a capitalist. I'd love to say that, man. I am a capitalist, hardcore capitalist. And most people that run the capitalist system now are not. They claim to be. See, because true capitalism is saying, hey, man, I want everyone to have access to school. And more people in school, the more ideas, the more ideas, more competitive the ideas, the better the ideas. They rise to the top. The better the ideas, the more growth ideas, they rise to the top, the better the ideas, the more

growth. And then the pie expands, right? The pie expands. Okay. Capitalists, the capitalists now, or the people who claim to be capitalists, only my kids are going to go to school. There's a finite amount of wealth, and you've got to get as

much of it as possible. So you can insulate yourself. Yeah, and fuck everybody else. Hey man, too bad if you didn't get as much of it as possible so you can insulate yourself yeah and fuck everybody else right man too bad if you didn't get it you know right and the fact is if you get as much as you can that is proof positive that uh you know you were destined to get it it was something about you innately that makes you better than everybody else that there's nothing placed in front of them and no prohibitions placed in front of them, no other systematic shit stopping everybody else. You are, you know,

destined to be the person that you are because we did everything possible to get as much as this pie and we got a lot of it. So we deserve to be treated differently. Royalty. And it's a perpetuation of the monarchy idea. Yeah, right.

Literally. Right. We have blue blood, not red. So in the way that it works in your mind that your success, it's also beholden on you to be philanthropic and reinvest private money into the bigger good. You can do good and do well. But on a day-to-day basis, how do you engage with your ideas and helping out?

Perfect example. In Puncher Train Park, I came back here and I said, listen, disaster. There was a program, the Road Home Program, where you could either sell your property back to government because I'm out of here. I'm leaving New Orleans. Or they'll give you or you can apply for a grant to then bring back your property. Yeah. Cool. So you had all of these abandoned properties, blighted properties, all of that.

I went to the city and said, Puncher Train Park is historic. By the way, Puncher Train Park just is historic by the way punch a train park just got designated on on the national register of historic places yeah because of this uh two weeks ago and i said punch a train park is a historic african-american neighborhood that in the height of this recession right in in the history the 50-year history of this neighborhood, we've only had two foreclosures. It's one of the most stable neighborhoods in America, consistently, with all of the obstacles placed in front of its residents at the height of segregation in Jim Crow South. Yeah. I said, and still we were able to thrive. We put together a resident-initiated redevelopment.

Transfer the properties to us. We will redevelop our neighborhood, right? Isn't this pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps? We'll exercise our right of self-determination. We'll design homes, all of that. And then we'll pay for the property on the back end. When we sell the house, we'll pay you the market value of the property. We negotiated that as residents. What I didn't realize was everyone who comes along and

they say, oh, you've got a good project, Mr. Pierce. That's cool. That definitely will help you. This is in the foundation world, right? Foundation world. They say, yes, and we'll help you. Here's the foundation money to help with the operations and all. We want $2,000 a house. That's all. I'm like, well, I thought this was grant money. It is to make sure that things roll along, but when you sell the house,

we want to cut. That's the thing, man. Everyone wants to help as long as they put their hand out like that. How do you determine who gets to have that? You realize that you're in a circular firing squad, right? Right. Of course. And you say, okay, cool. Let me get as much done as possible.

I wanted to do 100 homes. We did 40. Well, I mean, some foundations are on the level and you got to be okay with it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's be clear. I'm not saying it's just like the police, man. You know, hey, I want police reform.

But, you know, I love cops, man. I know cops, all that stuff. We know what the deal is. Right. Yeah. I'm not going to disparage everyone for that. But the foundation, they had things, especially in New Orleans, around that time, in a disaster, that's where you really got to watch out

because people make a living off of disasters. Well, that was very clear almost as it was happening, was that there was private money thinking about, like, well, this just did us a favor. Yeah. We can rebuild it. I mean, there was one businessman on the front page of Wall Street Journal who said, this is the best thing that ever happened to New Orleans.

We're going to be getting rid of the people we don't want. I mean, he said it. They're all saying that it's all pretty much out in the open now man yeah oh yeah definitely you know if we ever get through this we're gonna know exactly who all these fuckers are because you're not gonna be able to put that back in the bottle man you know let me ask you a question before we get into politics because i read somewhere in some of this stuff that you actually did a uh a production of waiting for godot that took place on a rooftop or was set on a rooftop during Katrina? Yes.

Whose idea was that? The director of the Classical Theater of Harlem sent me a photograph of two guys in the water in New Orleans. And he said, I saw this photograph and I thought of go, go and DD. Wow. Right. Yeah. Do you want to do this production? I said,

yes. So the stage was set up where we filled the stage with 15,000 gallons of water. Oh my God. And had a rooftop coming out of the water with a hole in it. And we made entrances through the water. It was like one of those above ground pools. Kind of put the proscenium stage front in front of it. So we had theances through the water. It was like one of those above ground pools that we kind of put the proscenium stage front in front of it.

So we had the water and the rooftop and we did the production. Oh, my God. Really successful production. And then artist Paul Chan said he went to the lower ninth ward. And when he saw the destruction, the void, it made him think of the void as the description at the beginning of Waiting for Godot. Every production that he had seen of Waiting for Godot, he saw it actualized in the Lower Ninth Ward. And that's when he said, we should do a production here. So we took that production we did in New York and 15,000 gallons of water.

We come in on a rooftop. Then we did it literally in the epicenter of Katrina, the destruction. And on this corner in the middle of the disaster, and we invited people there. And I made an entrance from like two blocks away. You could hear over the speakers. Out of the silence and out of of the darkness you hear this breathing and hustling yeah running and you see me arrive like omar sharif and lawrence of arabia from the distance coming in and we did the play in the lord knife ward and gentilly to two different weekends free to the public as an art project and it was one of the most cathartic moments of my life because you had all of these people from disparate walks of life yeah rich and

poor white black uh just you know from all over lawyers sitting next to longshoremen and one of the most cathartic moments was i turned we were all in the same boat and i turned and there's a prophetic line in the play at this place in this moment of time all mankind is us let us do something while we have the chance and it was just it floored us every night because we realized that you could not get a truer line how do you not how do you not start crying every time oh i i did not stop myself from crying every time and what happens is that that play speaks to it was written out of you know um beckett was in the midst of the Nazi occupation.

You know, he hid for like two years. He wrote the play during that. Susan Sontag did a production in the middle of the Balkan War. And it just rings out in the midst of the greatest crises in humanity. And at that same resonance, that same resonance in New Orleans, post-Katrina, it's about humanity. And it's almost what we're in the middle of right now. Yeah.

At this place, in this moment of time, all mankind is us. Let us do something while we have the chance. Yeah. It's so, it felt to me that just when I pictured it, without reading any description of it, that as an artist, that it would be some sort of kind of transformative experience that

you never, it changes you permanently. Oh, absolutely. Especially in the midst of that. I was standing when I said it in the Lord and Ithewood, I'll never forget, all the moorings of the homes that had been wiped away where people had drowned. It felt like a graveyard. And I was standing on a stoop of a house that was completely gone in the midst of this field. And to say that line, standing on that hallowed ground where so many had died,

I would let it just sit for a moment because it's almost like a moment of silence for the humanity that literally had died in the place where we were doing this play. It was, people speak to me about it to this day. You know, I had a chance to see that. I'll never forget. And it just reminds you of the role of art. Art is to the community what thoughts are to the individual. When you roll around at night going through all the things that you're going through in your life, reflecting on who you are,

where you hope to go, who you hope to become, your strengths, your weaknesses, your triumphs, your failures. What those thoughts are to the individual art is the forum for that, for the community as a whole, where we reflect on who we are, where we hope to go, our strengths, our failures. We decide what our values are, and then we act on them, hopefully. And that's the role of art. Entertainment is just a byproduct. Yeah, and there's a lot of that byproduct.

I would say byproduct's a fairly good explanation because that can also encompass garbage. Yeah, yes, right. Byproduct, that's the stuff you throw away. Right, right. But that's also what makes the money, right? Yeah, definitely. So when did you start to put that together in your mind?

I mean, what was your arc? You grew up in this neighborhood, and your old man, you probably – what was his background? What did he instill in you? You're probably, what was his background? What did he instill in you? You know, my father, 17 years old, living in the Calliope projects with his mother. And he goes off to war, World War II. Comes back and marries my mother.

And you'll never forget when he came to Punch Train Park. He talks about it. That's all he talks about. I remember when I came back here and I bought my house. That was such a seminal moment for me. Yeah. And my mother was a school teacher for 40 years. So priority on education and understanding that you have a life

that you need to focus on fully. There are those who do not have your best interest at heart. That was the thing that prepared us for the virulent violence of segregation and racism and all of that. Just steeled us to say, hey, what do you want to do? Focus on that wholeheartedly. Educate yourself because that no one can take away from you. That is your first, your greatest wealth. One of the first wealth you can get is a wealth of knowledge.

And so my parents really focused on that. There's a wealth of knowledge, right? So richness was always measured by knowledge, right? You know, do you know about this? You don't? Oh, shit, you need to find out about this. So I grew up, that was the whole thing. You know, my peer pressure was all about, man, you don't know what? Mark. Yeah.

You're a comedian? You never heard of Lenny Bruce? Right. You're bullshitting. Right. You know? Yeah. You know, you have a sense of history and all.

So that's how I was sent out into the world. That was kind of like the norm of the community. You know, it lends itself. People call me an activist and stuff. I'm like, I never thought of it that way. My whole thing is kind of like you live your life knowing that there are those who do not have your best interest at heart. And you steal yourself with the tools given to you with the knowledge that you've acquired and also i think that it had something to do with the the fight that you're you're it wasn't necessarily a fight but your dad coming out of you know still sort of like segregated racist you know organization in the military you know yeah and and then my father got got awards you know his his unit was uh his unit uh won uh medals right accommodations in uh in saipan and he got back uh his papers were behind him he

got back through fort hood in texas and he told a whack officer female officer hey i think we won some medals in saipan she, yeah, right. You. Wow. Yeah. And he was pissed off. Cut to a couple of years ago. My mother was still alive. This is like 2010. Oh, you know, we got a letter from the army.

Your father's unit got all of these medals. And your father was so mad. He's like, I don't want them. So I want to, you know, we should follow up and get these medals for you. And I'm like, all right, let me see the letter. And my mother brings me a letter from January 1945. And I was like, what? Oh, my God.

I was like, wait, I thought you received this yesterday. She's like, no. So and I went to the World War II Museum and Senator Mary Landrieu at the time. So he helped me get my father his medals. You got his medals in 2010. And I'll never forget, man, you know, my father was, you know, he's like, yeah, he got his medals.

Was he happy about it? He was like, man, that woman, he wasn't mad at the country, he was mad at that woman. That woman wouldn't give me my medals. And I was like, shit, I don't want them. And so he got his medals, man. So it was, there's an advocacy that was bred into me and nurtured in me out of necessity.

Right. That's what I'm saying. That was my point, was that it seemed like that your family, that your father and that generation, if they could pull it off, really kind of establish a black middle class. Oh, absolutely. Out of my neighborhood, the first black mayor, Dutch Morial, his son, Mark Morial, who became mayor. He's now national president of the Urban League. I grew up with Lisa Davis, who was the director of the EPA under Obama. Our first black DA in New Orleans. I grew up with him. Terrence Blanchard, who great Grammy award winning musician and composer. And he actually composes for films, does most of Spike Lee's films and Perry Mason, which is on right now.

He composed that Academy Award nominated also. Well, because you've got that pressure from both sides. You know, you've got, you know, the sort of institutional racism and white community want you to fail. And then you've got, you know, a different class of the black community, you know, putting their own anger on you, you know, for how you define. Classism, you know, and that's why I think that's why my parents always said, if you notice, they never said anything about race. They were like, listen, they're going to be people who do not have your best interest at heart. Right. So you accepted people of face value and know that for whatever rationale, some people are going to try to, you know, they're not going to have your best interest at heart.

But what you do is when those people are identified, when you identify those people, don't give them any more energy. Push them aside, energy push them aside work through them go around them you know that that's just one less person you have to worry about you right which is really interesting in this reckoning because i guess i'm the cynic sometimes i'm the cynic but it brings me to the fact that i'm not here to educate man yeah i got 20 summers you know with middle age and stuff and you start going i got 20 summers left you know, with middle age and stuff. And you start going, I got 20 summers left. I got that from Jennifer Lewis, man. I heard her say that. I was like, damn, that's right.

Yeah. Of course, we hope for a lot more. But, you know, I got 20 summers left. Am I going to waste my time on trying to educate this cat to his, you know, implicit and explicit biases and stuff? I'd rather just deal with changing the policy. stuff. I'd rather just deal with changing the policy. You know, I'd rather try to change qualified immunity where, you know, the cop can shoot you and say, hey, man, I was in fear for my life when he was running away. I was in fear of my life. Right. That gives them qualified immunity, something that was I'm always in fear for my life. Right. Yeah. And it's and it's

literally a legal doctrine, you know, sanctioned by the Supreme Court in the 80s that, you know, everyone knows we get rid of that. People will have to go, oh, man, I can't just say I'm in fear for my life. You have to show just cause for a shoot. I'd rather change that than say, hey, man, you know, when I'm stopped by a cop and they say license and registration i have to be careful if i go for my wallet like this i could get shot yeah and if someone says to me you know hey man really i don't understand that why you're either you're either feigning ignorance or you really are fucking stupid you know yeah or you know i don't have time i feel like you know people always oh man you know i've had my white friends call us now we gotta have a conversation i'm know, I don't have time. I feel like, you know, people are saying, oh, man, you know, my friends call us. Now we've got to have a conversation. I'm like, man, we don't have to fucking have a conversation. You know what the deal is? I'm trying to change this policy over here. You know, we'll talk about it.

So we got a lot of time. We got a lot of time. Well, I think that that's interesting because that's what's happened to a lot of people is they know they always knew. of people is they know they always knew but for some reason what you just called the reckoning is now they i i think finally the empathy has connected and now they understand it with their heart i mean to intellectually get it right and i understand with their heart right i think but see and that's why i have to say now now you see i'm part of the problem because I'm being so cynical I don't have time for people's epiphany no but no I don't think so

and I should apologize for that I should accept the humanity and people's epiphany and coming to it but I'm reminded of a night in Chicago right Rush Street I'm coming out I'm trying to hail a cab. Get this, man. I'm like, damn, the cabs are passing a brother by. You know what the deal is,

right? And I'm like, damn. So these couples come out of a bar and I say, hey, man, as a joke, and I'm drinking, I say, hey, man, when are you good white people hail a cab? And the dude says, oh, man, that's fucked up. Yeah, man, I'll do that, right? And he hails the cab for

me his girl goes i don't understand he goes don't worry about it baby no i'm really i don't understand why does he need us to hail a cab and he's like please shut the fuck up what are you talking about i'm like man that's cool he goes no man. You can tell. And he got so upset with his girlfriend. Yeah. Right. Because she was she earnestly was saying, I don't understand why. And he was like so embarrassed by that. Yeah.

She knows that's some bullshit. But it's and so I have to say that, you know, I'm complicit if I don't allow people to have that human moment of empathy and epiphany. Right. When something they knew intellectually and maybe it was even subconscious comes to a conscious state and connects with their heart. And so I I'd say to all my white friends and allies, yes, I will have the conversation with you. You don't have to have at least I'm not telling you at least let it be over a nice fucking meal you know it could be it could be a uh it could be a short conversation like it's about time yeah right do you have a lot of siblings how many people in there i have three i had it was three of us two older brothers my oldest brother is deceased and i have one brother and who went to West Point. Wow. And yeah, which West Point had his military career. Then he went into telecommunications, which I was like telecommunications.

What does that mean? Yeah. He was a military attache in Belarus. I was like, what is a military attache? He goes, a military attache. Right. And then he leaves the military and he goes into telecommunications for XO Telecom on the West Coast. He has to do six. And, you know, they do a lot of work in Asia. So he goes to Asia for a couple of months.

I'm like, man, that sounds like some CIA shit. Then I realized, what is a military attache? He goes, man man come on man you know every embassy that's all we're doing is spying on each other right oh shit wow do you he goes i mean i've worked with some of the guys i know people yeah yeah i know people but i'm not so i was like that but he's not that anymore he's in he's in he's at PBS now. Oh, wow. OK, so now he's now he's paying his karmic debt.

Yes. So, like, I guess my question is, though, like, when did you decide that? Because, you know, you're such a well-rounded actor and you can you know, you're a great character actor. And, you know, you seem to have a real passion for the craft and it's important to you. When did you realize that that was, you know, given your background, that that was going to be the thing? I kind of knew when I was young I wanted to be an actor. I went to a performing arts high school here, New Orleans Center for Creative Arts, at 13, 14. I was playing football.

And all of a sudden I decided they came recruiting for it. And me and my mentor, Elliot Kener, who was the teacher there, we just clicked in the class. And then I went there and they were serious about training. We didn't do plays. We just worked on scenes. We worked on text, worked on our voice and movement and theater history, you know. So it was a real serious approach to it. And, you know, while I was there, Winston Marcellus was there and Harry Connick Jr. When I left, Anthony Mackie came along in the theater department. So it was a real serious school.

I think one day somebody is going to do a story on that school. It was real incubated for talent. Yeah. Here in New Orleans. So and that prepared me to go to Juilliard. And what I really loved about that, I loved training because I realized it was a tangible thing. It wasn't happenstance. It was approaching it from a way of giving you skill sets that you would be able to

work in many different situations. So I, to this day, have prided myself on trying to be as diverse as possible in my career. I do a play, a television and film a year. I try to do one of each a year. The trifecta, I call it. Well, is that something that Juilliard instilled in you as the the sort of work ethic of it that you know as a working actor and a you know a guy with a you know a uh a reliable and practical skill set that they gave you that you should spread it out uh yes and no uh yes because it gave me the skill set and I came to the conclusion that what would work best for me is to make sure it's varied and different. You know, if I just try to have a film career, I just try to have a theater career.

I actually moved to L.A. because I couldn't get cast in plays in New York because they were always looking for people with visibility. They're looking for named people to play the lead. So I said, let me go to television. They're looking for name people to play the lead. So I said, let me go to television. Let me get out to L.A., do more television and film and get a name and then do and come back and do play. But, you know, I was in class with Brad Whitford. You know, Brad Whitford was in my class at Juilliard.

And so I would say and he's like that himself, you know, and all my classmates. And it's varied. You know, it gives you the ability to do all of those things i said i'm gonna punch that up more than uh most actors do uh he also had a saying that they were training us for a theater that didn't exist because they were training us in the in the sense that the british that we were supposed to go to the national theater you know and do a repertory of different plays and that doesn't exist in america as much as it doesn't in britain because i've talked to other people from juilliard i mean and you know, and do a repertory of different plays. And that doesn't exist in America as much as it does in Britain. Because I've talked to other people from Juilliard. I mean, and, you know, it's no, they don't fuck around.

I mean, you know, like they kick people out. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I remember a teacher telling someone, with that S, you'll never work in the American theater. Wow. Like with that S, one fucking letter, he can't say. Man, oh, they were tough.

You know, some people, it changed because they thought it was a little too militaristic. You know, it kind of set right in the pocket with me coming from the football world. It was like a coach getting in your face going, what the fuck was that? Yeah. You get in there, you know. So I kind of responded to all of that militarism uh and and juilliard going to juilliard the one thing i knew getting out of juilliard was the fact that i would never encounter anything in the business that would fuck with me

as much as this did that turn out to be true uh yes yes you know i'm like i'm prepared for that oh that's some bullshit let me direct you you know yeah oh yeah yeah it implements you yeah so when you came out here the plan was to to get some uh box office to get some cachet yes and then uh I would be able to do more work in New York. That has worked out, you know, that has worked out. I came out and, listen, I, you know, was kind of your troubadour, you know. Yeah. All these television shows and parts in films and all. And that gave me the cachet and the recognizability where people would then consider me for roles in New York.

So you never went through a period where, you know, you were frustrated by the roles that you were getting in L.A.? Like the goal was always to go to New York and do theater? I knew I didn't want to become a theater snob, you know, only theater, you know. Sure. Television and film is bullshit. I realized that that happens when people,

they don't realize it's about good work. It's about good writing. In any medium, you could do some bullshit. It's really about good writing and good material. So I started to focus on that. But I went through a period where I did every bad sitcom pilot were like a string there yeah and uh and then i got known like oh well wendell's available he can do this you know you know and i was like baddie baddie baddie yeah yeah and uh and i was doing and it reminded me

you have to always remember employment doesn't define you as an artist. It's easy to understand that when you're unemployed. I'm unemployed just because I don't have a job. It doesn't mean I'm a bad artist. It just means employment. But when you're employed and making a lot of money but doing some bullshit, you have to be able to look in the mirror and go employment does not define me as an artist don't think you're doing good work as an artist just because you're employed and making a shitload of money right and i'll never forget when this final pilot didn't get

picked up i did about five in a row and i told my agent no more sitcoms no more sitcoms. No more sitcoms right now. Nothing against sitcoms. You know, I wish I was on Seinfeld. But this shit is not Seinfeld. Right. And they said, okay. And the next job I got was The Wire. That changed my career.

But it also gave you, like, that was a nice couple years, huh? Yeah, man. The Wire changed my career it was it changed my life uh got to know great people it's always about the work you do and the people you do it with and um uh we were able to change television that writing was just great it it it humbled me because we never got awards. Right? Right. Really made you appreciate the work itself. I look back on The Wire. Our last season, we were praying we didn't get a nomination. You know?

We were like, let's go out without a nomination. That would be great. And did that happen? And it did. It happened. But the fucked up thing about that, that should have gotten a Pulitzer. Yeah. We got a Peabody. I think, yeah, we got a Peabody. And it should have gotten a Pulitzer. Yeah. We got a Peabody. I think, yeah,

we got a Peabody and it should have got a Pulitzer. For me, that's the real badge of honor. You know, it's the fact that the work itself is so appreciated decades after now. It's 20 years, man. Yeah. Why I started 20 years ago and that people, I meet people every day

that are seeing it for the first time, you know, or they are huge fans that have that we can talk about any episode or any year. And I'll give them a piece of trivia or something they didn't know. And it's like peeling back. It's like easter egg that they didn't know about what yeah and they go back and watch the whole you know the whole thing over again with a different appreciation i remember when i did it i did it like i i binged it early because i think i feel like um when i watched it like i remember watching two to three episodes a night alone and i was in New York doing a job on,

on radio, but I just, I just couldn't stop. I just kept watching it and it was, and I did it all at once and I filled my head up. It was like three week process or something. It was great. And you know, we were so separated in that, you know, at least I was like, I never had anything to do, uh, uh do on the criminal side. You know, being a homicide detective, you come in after everything is over. Right. So I watched the other part of the show like a huge fan. Right.

Yeah. I never seen I never had a scene with with Avon Bardsdale. You know, the great Woodharris. Yeah. Yeah. I was only in a courtroom with Idris. You know, we didn't have any direct scenes. Yeah.

And so I watched all of those like a fan. That's wild about acting. And I've noticed a little bit in my limited experience is that you do your shit, but you don't know how that's going to come together. You don't know what the other people are doing. You don't know anything. Sometimes you don't even know how to...

I mean, I can see how I fit in on the paper but i don't know how how it's gonna look yeah and you're like oh you're pleasantly surprised sometimes oh shit yeah oh i'm a linchpin i'm a linchpin to the whole plot oh shit yeah movie is on you know when i give him a message there's a message for you mr jones oh my god yeah it's you music swells boom boom oh shit it was me i gave the message and so but over the over the time now like the the wire was was great but like you've had this opportunity and you know in both i think film and television to work with a lot of great people, directors, other actors. I mean, you're one of those guys.

It's almost like I was reminded because for some reason it got in my head this morning there are these great character actors like Ned Beatty. Oh, man. Definitely. you know someone i was thinking about the other day ed asner man oh yeah the ultimate to me is someone who had one of the briefest careers because he lost his life at an early age john kazal oh yeah

john kazal did four movies god Godfather. Yeah, right. Godfather. Two. Deer Hunter. And Dog Day Afternoon. Dog Day Afternoon. He actually did one more, which was great, which is he's in The Conversation. Oh, yeah. Five.

You know, historic movies, you know, and he lost his life at an early age of cancer, man. And it's like, you know, that's it, man. I hope to look back on my, you know, to a body of work. Well, you got one. I mean, you're cause you're like, I was, my point was you're that you're that guy, which is a great place to be where, when you show up in something, if people don't know your name,

they're like, there's that guy. That's the guy. Yes, I did. He's in everything, that guy. Right. And, yeah, I appreciate that. And what happens is The Wire helped that immensely. And so, you know, The Wire, Ray Donovan.

I did Selma. Yeah. You know, Malcolm X. Yep. Comedies like, you know, Horrible Bosses. Sure. You were in that bus movie, the Spike movie, right? Yeah.

Get on the bus. Yeah, that was great. And Malcolm X. Worked with Spike twice. I actually worked with Woody Allen twice. Showing up on uh manhattan murder mysteries and uh i forget the other one you know every once in a while you know woody he'd get he'd be shooting films and then he's just like oh yeah those we've worked together already so

i need somebody here in this cafe you know yeah i need her need him yeah he just put me in well when you work with directors like because i've talked to some people that you know i imagine that the process of theater in terms of the relationship with a director is probably a little more rewarding than film is that correct um not when you have a good film director uh-huh what makes that what makes someone a good film director a good film director knows what you need as an actor you know like what you know you need to service uh service the role and they'll allow you to find that because they're dealing with a whole bunch of technical stuff that's looking up. Or if they don't have it, they know what to say to you to remind you this is where you're coming from,

this is where you're going to because we're out of sequence. And then a good film director, because he's multifaceted, he's multitasking, will make sure you're not shooting the scene like this. I told you. I love it when you're like, holy cut holy cut wendell you're out of frame come here yeah let's monitor you see i understand that impulse to come over to him to get in his face but you see where the camera is right i need you in the frame yeah you know sure you know i don't need you to go right at that moment where you're about to kill him go i'll fucking kill you right yeah you're like stay still yeah uh come and see it so you can you know and that and that good because in theater, you know where the edge of the stage is when you're out of your life.

Yeah, yeah. And the director needs to do that because they're the outside eye. There's some directors in film that know nothing about acting, and they allow you to do your work, and they'll come and tell you, I need, I need to understand in this moment why he makes the decision that takes him for the rest of the film. And like, oh,

okay. He gives you the idea of he, he knows what he needs. Right. In this moment. And he knows that you're skilled enough as an actor to create all the things necessary within your way of working to get there. Right. Right. and he knows that you're skilled enough as an actor to create all the things necessary within your way of working to get there, right?

And he'll admit or she'll admit, I can't give you that. Because right now I'm looking at the lighting, I'm looking at the shot, the movement on the camera, and I hired you to do the acting, right? And so I can appreciate those directors. Right. But a director who knows nothing about acting

and then can't give you anything, and they're just technical, those can be very frustrating. And that happens on the stage too, because what happens on the stage is you have directors who then want to make sure that the audience know knows that the director put their hand in this moment you know right all of a sudden you're like i'm playing this and i said yeah but right is that moment it's gonna happen the set is

gonna swing from left right in the stage i'm just like why why let the moment do it, you know? Yeah. You're my daughter and my sister. What? You know, that's enough, you know? The set doesn't have to fall apart in your idea of, you know. I saw a play, and I'll never forget. And something, between scenes, the lights would go half. But there was something bothering me in the lights.

And I couldn't tell what it was. I couldn't tell what was going on. And then I realized halfway through, between every scene, the director had put a faint image of a clock with the second hand going around. I'm like, we know time is passing, man. hand going around. I'm like, we know time is passing, man. We don't need a fucking light telling us, you know, as time goes by. I'm like, this is the director going, I gotta put my

hand in it. And that's really bad in the theater. You know, it's just kind of like arbitrary direction, just so that people know it's a directed moment. It's overcompensating. Yes, yes. But my greatest triumph in theater happened this year, or this past year.

And that was doing Willie Loman in Death of a Salesman in London. Oh, yeah. You got nominated for the Olivier, huh? Yes, yes. And that was... Why? Why that play? Why that guy? What is it about it?

It is the greatest, you know, the closest thing to acting is psychology. Acting is study of human behavior. It's really the study of human behavior. And that case study of Willie Loman and Death of a Salesman goes very deep if you give yourself over to it it triggers you do some

personal reflections and you tap into some of your personal issues that this man has at the same time and it can really some of your personal issues that this man has at the same time and it can really affect you. Like what?

On my best days behind me. All the people I've heard. Will I ever be able to redeem that? all the people I've heard. Right. Will I ever be able to redeem that? Hmm. You know, I always think of the lyric from My Way, regrets I have a few.

Yeah. Regrets I have many. Sure. Yeah. Regrets, I have many. Sure. So that's something at a certain age that everybody, you know, everybody, you know, if they're willing to look at themselves can find it. Yeah. That's a real, and I can't believe he was like 25 or something when he wrote that Arthur Miller. Yeah.

It's just the progression of that. And it's the first memory play that delves into the connection of your memory and who you are. The expectations that you have of yourself that you've made, that you have to. And the scary thing is if you really go into it, you don't want to make the choice that he made, you know, which is they tell you right up front at the beginning of the play it's called death of a salesman

yeah yeah we're going there yeah right and uh and if you truly play a role when you're playing a role you can never you the character is always your hero, right? Yeah. No matter how flawed or damaged they are, a good actor admires their character, right? Yeah. Because a person who is flawed, they don't see themselves as flawed. You have to understand their rationales for all of these awful decisions that they make

how they how do they uh how do they justify it how they justify it and man uh he chooses to end his life boy this is the first time that i uh i i always had to make sure that i did something to kind of step away from the role. I never subscribed to that. You know, actors go, oh, my God, every night I have to be careful because I'm so connected. I'm like, man, say the last line and let's go to the bar. Right. You know, come on. Right.

But this was the first time I was like, oh, this is what they're talking about. You have to look at that in yourself and you're like, I never thought I could even have any sort of rationale of, you know. But that's writing, right? That's the writing. That's the mathematics of emotion. He got you there. He got, yeah, absolutely, man.

You guys, that led to that, which led to that, you know, and that's when you go, oh, man, that's great writing. You know, the callback is because of something that um there's a line um oh and this is a real acting moment there was a line um that linda says to to one of my sons at the end you know both of you you're both good boys right don't worry you're both good boys, right? Don't worry. You're both, both of you, both good boys. And that triggered something in me because my mother on her deathbed said, Wendell, I'm dying. You and your brother stick together.

That's your brother, right? You guys stay close to each other, both of you. And when I would hear that on stage, both, you're both good boys. It was, it was since memory of the moment of my mother telling me she was dying. And that fueled everything from that moment on for the rest of the play. It wasn't my line.

It wasn't the situation that I had with my son. It was my wife saying, you're both good boys. That triggered something in me. Not only did it take me to my personal life, which my mother said to me on my deathbed, but at the same time, I realized what was at stake, that I was losing my family, my two boys. Reminded me of my father when he said,

I would never, my father left me and I would never abandon my kids. That triggered in me. Then at the same time, I realized that I had given them nothing. So I had abandoned them. And all of that in that split moment gave me everything that drove me at the end of the play to say, I'm out.

And to make that decision to end your life because you think that's giving someone something. Crazy. What an awful, awful, awful human rationale. To take your life because you think that's giving someone else their life when when it isn't oh when it isn't and it isn't true no it's making it worse yeah so that that's acting to me that you know creating the world so strong that it induces the behavior i i would get to the end of that play and i didn't i i didn't have to think about i didn't think about anything i

it would take me it would take over but you recovered uh no i haven't i'm holding on to it because i want to do it on broadway i actually revisit the journey of the play all the time. I'm like, man, uh, uh, I did it over in London. I want to do it in New York, you know? So hopefully you get that chance, but like in, in, in, when you're reflecting on it before, you know, when we reflect on our own lives and our own experiences, it seemed like, you know, you connected to your own flaws and mistakes and how many people you heard. I, I have to the gift of being able to spend time with your 95-year-old father puts a lot of that stuff in perspective.

That was one of the things that I think about all the time. I think, as I said in the beginning of this, that's been the blessing of this pandemic, that I get to spend time with him. I think of my mother who said, you know, take care of your father. She knew she was dying. Take care of your father. And it, uh, it connects me with her, you know, every time I, Oh, let me go see my dad. I go, wait, man, hold on. You were given, you were given a gift brother. So, know uh it it makes me appreciate it makes me appreciate life too that's great and so like what being like now i know you went to school with a lot of these musicians but music's a big part of your life as well

i love music man when you grow up in new orleans it's great you sing wow i was having a little fall in mark man yeah my boy back there that's a funny When you grew up in New Orleans, it was great. You'd sing. Come on, what's happening, little fella? Let it mark me. Run. Yeah. That's my boy. Back there. That's a funny motherfucker. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Right? You've been here. You're like, what did they say? I can't understand. That's some New Orleans shit there. And actually, Ellis Marcellus taught me. He said, you know, jazz is based on the emulation of human dialogue. When you're trading fours, we're having a conversation, you know, jazz is based on the emulation of human dialogue. You're trading force.

We're having a conversation, you know? Oh, yeah. And the improvisation that it comes from. And it's really the American aesthetic on display. Yeah. Freedom within form. You have to honor the form of the music. But as a soloist, you have the right as an individual to go as far as you want to go

i love it out of the form so it's freedom within form you know we're a nation of laws but as an american we celebrate individuality yeah right honor the form honor the laws but be yourself yeah free you know it's a finite amount of notes with an infinite amount of combinations. Yeah. That's improvisation. And then that taught me how to act, right? Right. Because it's the finite amount of words,

but with an infinite amount of ways of saying them and an infinite amount of ways of having those words affect you. Right. And that's jazz. And that's what the American aesthetic is, unique to our experience, right? It's the best display of the American aesthetic, how the two can coexist, technical proficiency and exactness and order and form and laws and the form of chords of music or the written word and script, but the infinite amount of possibilities from that. And both can be honored. And that's the

American aesthetic on display and so richly displayed in music. And when I think of music, I think of jazz. Now, that happens in all stuff, too, you know, man. I always go back to that one, that Led Zeppelin tune, which that's when I understood theory or counting, really. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun.

But here's the thing about it. It's four and three, right? Right. One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three. But the beat is on the four. One, two, three, four.

One, two, three, four. Right? Yeah. Three and four, and they meet up on 12. Right? And when I figured that out, I was like, wait a minute. Right? Yeah. Da-da-da. Da-da-da. Da-da-da. right if you and when i figured that out i was like wait a minute right yeah yeah right and you sit there you go oh well what what it displays is how it's free yeah but thought out too yeah you think it's a little off like oh man it's a little off right in the middle of that run it's a little off but it's oh, man, it's a little off right in the middle of that run. It's a little off, but it's not all that.

And then it comes back on the head on the 12. Yeah. Three times from the 12. Yeah. I remember when I understood how to do Shakespeare because of that. Really? Literally, September 1981, Village Vanguard. I'm checking out Arthur Blythe.

And I was at school at Juilliard, man. And, you know, Shakespeare was just kicking my ass. Just the verse and all of that and understanding the iambic pentameter and how to use it. And that same challenge of how do you honor the form of it and how does that free you up? It feels restrictive, right? Right. I went to hear Arthur Blight. I remember the tune.

Do-do-do-do-do-do. Do-do-do-do-do-do. Do-do-do-do-do-do. Do-do-do-do-do. Do-do-do. Right? And I loved it. And I kept humming the tune. And I was looking around when he started his solo.

And Arthur Blythe was avant-garde. He went all out, right? And then swinging. And I'm looking around the club, and I keep singing the melody. He's all over the place. And I kept, and when he came back to the top of the tune, we were right together.

And then I went, oh, wait a minute. When I thought he was just playing all kinds of craziness, he knew exactly where he was at all times. Yeah. He kept the order of the tune and the form. And I was like, oh, that's it.

You can do whatever the fuck you want, but oh. You just gotta land it. You gotta get out of that form, right? Yeah. So, oh, the two can happen. They can coexist. So that's my mantra. The two can coexist.

And I'm like, oh, that's it. That's it. Huh. You know? And that's art. And that's real art. oh that's it that's it huh you know so that that and that's art and that's real art and that's art that art is also in science that's the art of science sure you find the art of something it's that understanding of the complexity of it the fact that you can honor form that two things can coexist you can honor form and at the same time be an individual, be free, be exploring everything. And so in whatever field you're in, you can say that's the art of it, right?

That's what science was all about. High math. I remember trigonometry class. Mark, you have a proof and I have a proof. There's a truth and a reality at the end. You know, there's the answer. But you're going to get to it your way. I'm going to get to it my way. It doesn't change the reality at the end. The two can coexist. The truth of the matter is the same. That's why I tell people, man, all the time, they talk about policing, the police reform that's happening now. I said,

That's why I tell people, man, all the time, they talk about policing, the police reform that's happening now. I said the art of policing is the fact that you should be able to police, check people, arrest people, hold people accountable, arrest criminals, prevent crime from happening, you know, hunt down and investigate and capture criminals. All at the same time as not giving up your principled values. And you don't have to do it with abuse the two can coexist people are like oh well you're taking that away from me now what i can't kneel on somebody's neck i can't beat a motherfucking down right i can't beat a motherfucker oh well now i can't police oh we gotta retire i gotta leave you mean to tell me you can't do the two at the same time then that means that you're not American. Because the American aesthetic is the fact that you have the ability to do the two at the same time.

Right? Right. That you have the ability to be free and inventive and explore a way of doing something. Community policing. Do whatever you got to do. Be tight with a cat. Say, man, I understand why you did that.

Turn around. I'm just going to arrest you for a second because you shouldn't have shot that dude. What are you talking about? Hey, man, we'll talk about it in the car down the street. I should be able to arrest you without, you know, and still get it done. Right. But honoring form, living within the accountability of the laws and stuff. So that's the reform we're talking about. And that's why I challenge people saying that's an American aesthetic. Those who cannot do that, you're saying that you can't be American. You can't be a nation of laws that gives you the freedom to be individuals. You can't honor the authority that you have and stay within the confines of some sort of civility and be a police, then that means you're not a good police. That means you're not an American,

because the truest of Americans can say, I can honor this. I can honor form and be free within it, because that's an American aesthetic. That's what the American aesthetic is all about. That's the greatest thing about the Constitution. We have the form of the Constitution, but it's amorphic and ever-changing, because they say, man, you know this shit has to be better. We know we're fucking up. We all know this. Hey, man, we all got slaves. And we're talking about every man is free. Now you know it.

So we're going to come up with this three-fifths of a man compromise and shit because you motherfuckers down south got slaves and you're making money and you don't want to give up that money. But you know we're going to set up this thing that it can change because we know it needs to change. But at the same time, we have some values in this shit that's going to actually serve us as we make the changes, right? Yeah. So when we honored John Lewis yesterday and put him to rest, John Lewis literally can be said, as Obama said, right, he's a founder

of America. He's one of the founding fathers, because the principle of one vote, one man did not become real for everyone, not just black folks, for every American. It did not become a reality until 1965, when he got his ass beat on the Edmund Pettus Bridge and forced Johnson and the Congress to sign the Voting Rights Act. Right. Right. It did not. So the whole principle of America did not become actualized when it came to voting until

1965. Right. Right. Right. Because, you know, 1790, anybody coming into the country couldn't vote. Right. Right. Right. Because, you know, 1790, anybody coming into the country couldn't vote. Right. Finally, you know, emancipation happens. Black men get the right to vote. Right. And the South goes into every fucking machination to make sure they don't get it. Yeah. 1920 women finally get the right to vote.

But it wasn't until 1965 where we said, okay, now we're going to put in protections to make sure all the bullshit that keeps everybody from getting to vote, now all the bullshit is going to be put in check. Now everybody can vote. So it's an amalgam. That's an American thing. To be intelligent enough

and have the facility to change, to direct it, change, have order, and be free and liberal and inventive in your ability to change, that it doesn't hamper you. That's an American aesthetic. You see that in jazz.

You see that in the art form that you have, making a motherfucker laugh. At the same time, when they go home, they say, man, I had a good time. Boy, Mark, that motherfucker made me laugh. But boy, that motherfucker made me think. Let me think about this shit. Right? Yeah.

Oh, that's kind of fucked up. You got to sneak it in. Yeah. But you're not even sneaking it in. I know. See, that's the American aesthetic about what you do, Mark, is the fact that the two coexist. Yeah. sneaking it in. See, that's the American aesthetic about what you do, Mark, is the fact that the two coexist. The fact that you have the liberal nature of making a motherfucker just laugh

and laugh and laugh and what they don't even realize is in that, you are educating, you are provoking thought, you're challenging them, you're challenging yourself, and then you're like, damn. And that's the art. That's art.

Yeah. The form in which we reflect on who we are, decide what our values are, and then hopefully it moves you to act on them. Well said. I had too much coffee this morning. Oh, it's good. That was a good coffee run. That was good.

I thought that was beautiful. It was a great riff. It was great. And, you know, it was exciting to watch for me. It was like, you know, to start at Shakespeare and get to where you got, that was something, man. Oh, thank you. I forgot it started at Shakespeare.

Boy, that coffee's good. What is this work you're doing with this radio station down there? WBOK 1230 uh has been around for 70 years and we came up for sale um three of my partners said man we can't let this station just go uh the only african-american owned station in the state of louisiana uh it talk radio talk radio and imagine where new New Orleans was 70 years ago. There's a fish fry at

Peter Claver Church, and by the way, Martin Luther King is going to be here Sunday. And with Reverend Alexander, we're going to be marching on City Hall. Jerome Smith just got back off of his freedom ride.

Right. You know? Yeah. He got his ass beat in Anderson, Alabama. But there's some writer from Paris, James Baldwin, invited him up to New York to meet with the Attorney General. Yeah. Robert Kennedy.

And he told Robert Kennedy off. Ain't that some shit? You know? Right. This is talk radio. It's a legacy station, and when it came up for sale, we just couldn't let it go. And it was important enough and small enough,

a 1,000-watt AM station. It was four of us buying a decent-sized house. And so, you know, that's, that's what my parents' generation gave us. That's the Moses generation that gave us the blueprint

to move forward, get handed us a baton. We're the Joshua generation. And so I've, we felt as though it was necessary to buy that station and make sure it continues

being the voice of the community. So you didn't change the programming or anything. You just, you just made sure it survives. Make sure it survived. We change the programming or anything. You just, you just made sure it survives, make sure it survived.

We changed the program because we're trying to, you know, upgrade it and broaden it and stuff. Yeah. And I've, you know, I've had folks on, I've had David Allen Greer on,

I've had Vanessa Williams and, uh, and Sherilyn Eiffel came on. Oh, so you're hosting a show on there now? Yeah. I host the show like once a month. Oh, okay. Um, on Fridays. Uh, yeah. on oh so you're hosting a show on there now yeah i host the show like uh once a month okay um on

fridays uh yeah the last last friday of the month uh i'm actually on right now um and uh and uh it's like oh that's nice that's great you know but all politics are local man they're like oh yeah wendell pierce on oh he had a conversation with vanessa williams that's great uh did you know but all politics are local man they're like oh yeah wendell pierce i know he had a conversation with vanessa williams that's great uh did you know councilman williams actually didn't do his taxes i'm like yeah did you hear the show with vanessa williams oh yeah she's great she's a wonderful woman she can sing her ass a great actress but if they don't fix that press drive right now i'm not to vote for the mayor again. I'm like, I'm talking to Vanessa Williams.

They're like, oh, yeah, baby, that's nice. Yeah, but. But I went over to get tested over at University of New Orleans. They didn't have but 20 tests. And I'm not going to go back. And I'll tell you who to blame, assessor you know yep yeah i mean i've done you know the local radio thing that's the that's what keeps it alive is terrestrial radio is that is that local engagement yeah it's great that you did that man they people feel like it's their station which is what i love about

it you know so now we don't know what anyone's going to do, so you're just going to be down there. Yeah, I'm going to be here, but I'm a digital artist at UMS. The university is at the University of Michigan. It's the University Musical Society. It goes back 100 years. A presenter like Lincoln Center or the Mark Taper Forum in the Midwest. I'm a digital artist with them, which is trying to figure out how to present art in this new virtual reality.

Okay. Yeah. And it looks like we're working on this, but we're going to try to do live theater. Really? But we're going to try to do live theater. Really? In this post-pandemic world, or in this pandemic world. University of Michigan also has one of the great public health departments.

So what we're going to do is quarantine, kind of do the bubble, like the NBA or whatever, two other actors and the director. Quarantine, rehearse the play, and when we go to perform the play, anyone coming into the bubble when we get into tech rehearsal, props or anything like that, I really actually said, we don't even need the props. They deliver them, and we'll do our own offstage stuff right um and then we uh stream it live stream it but bring in an audience of like 20 or 30 and do the quick test with them whether it's you know the same 15 minute test result or a one day result if they decide to quarantine overnight,

you know, once you get the result. But we want to do the quick test and we're devising that study, the case study with the public health department of Michigan, University of Michigan. So it'll be a study. So it'll be the hybrid, which is what I think theater is going to be. After this pandemic, there's no theater that should not consider or put into its protocol, setting up some cameras and filming it for a live stream to go out. I've been surviving on the National Theater collection of plays that they've been doing the National Theater live for about a decade now. And I think it just closed off.

But I've been watching those plays. Barbershop Chronicle, Coriolanus, Streetcar Named Desire with Ben Foster, Gillian Anderson, Small Island. What was another? Yeah, those were the four. Ben Foster, Gillian Anderson, Small Island. What was another? Yeah, those were the four. Ben Foster did Streetcar? Ben Foster did Streetcar a couple of years ago in London with Gillian Anderson.

How was he? He was great. He was great. And I got to see it because of that. I didn't even know that he had done it. And so that's the future. So I think that there's going to be a hybrid for all theaters, no matter how small you are.

You know, you're going to do tech rehearsal. In tech rehearsal, you need to do a camera rehearsal and then prepare to do the play and live stream it or actually record it to be seen later. People were questioning, well, you know, then that takes away from the live experience. I said, well, not really. It actually amplifies the live experience,

because people will see it and then say, ooh, I wish I was there, or I'll get there the next time I'm going to get there. I'll be tested so I can get it. It'll actually make the live experience even more of a premium because it was only 30 people who were tested, who were able to come and see it. And that's,

it's like the first run of a film. The first run of a film in the theaters is really almost just advertising for the, you know, the tertiary, you know, DVD and on demand market and all, you know, the ancillary market. I like that the idea that, you know,

there's a necessity to have at least the, you know, the 30 people there because that will engage the actors in the live symbiotic relationship that's supposed to take place within the space. Absolutely. And so it'll read that way, you know, that the feelings will, uh, of connectivity will, will actually be there when it goes out in streams. Right. Because it's a guidepost, you know, that's the thing that I realized, oh, I tell you

another one that does it, the American Playhouse, all of those on PBS here. I watched the musical just the other day. She Loves Me. And the audience is like a guide to that. Yeah, right. Anybody who's looking at it can see. And then also for the actors, that's the other partner in the scene. Anybody in the theater will tell you that.

You rehearse the play. Once you bring it to an audience, they are, they're the additional, additional scene partner, you know, and they kind of let you know where the scene is going and you play off of them in the live performance also. And I think that's important. And so that's something that's unique. And I don't think it'll be lost in the streaming. It's actually going to be valued even more.

That's great, man. It sounds like a great project and certainly prescient and looking forward. Trying to figure it out, man. Yeah, it's what we're in. You got to keep innovating. Keep the two tracks, man. That's it, man. See?

Reading within form, man. That's right. Hey, it's great talking to you, Wendell. Thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you. I hope I made some sense today, man. Loved it. It's great. I think you Wendell. Thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you. I hope I made some sense today, man. Loved it. It's great.

I think you're a brilliant cat, man. I love your work, and I love what you do. Be careful out there. You too. Take it easy. You too. What a great guy, right? What a great talk.

We talked Zeppelin. Come on, we talked Zeppelin. Wendell Pierce, again, I just want to mention it is nominated for an Olivier Award as Best Actor for Death of a Salesman. And it was a real pleasure talking to him.

Now, I will play some guitar like I've played before. Thank you. © transcriptF-WATCH TV 2021 Boomer lives. Fonda. Monkey. All the flying cats. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

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