WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1159 - Alicia Keys / John Leguizamo

Episode Date: September 21, 2020

It's a New York City doubleheader! First up, Marc talks with the woman behind the modern day New York anthem, Alicia Keys. On the release of her seventh studio album, Alicia looks back on what it was like to start a huge music career so young and how she had to finally meet her monster in order to come into her own. Then Marc talks to John Leguizamo about his defining one-man shows, his relationship with other New York City artists, and his new movie Critical Thinking, which is the first feature film John directed. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is WTF, my podcast.

How's it going? Huh? Right when you think it could only get worse, it does. That's a constant in the current world, the current environment, the current cultural moment, the current now. Jesus fucking Christ. Huh? I can't fucking take it, man. On top of everything else, on top of my own personal journey. I like how we use that word journey.

Hey, life is a journey, man. It's not about meeting your goals or getting everything you want. It's the journey, man. It's about the journey. Enjoy the journey. I got to be honest with you. I think the journey's not great right now. I think that the vessel we're on, not terrific.

Tough to appreciate the journey. Maybe if I'm looking back and I'm like, I can't believe our bus made it through that shit. That'll be nice. Then I could see the journey thing. But right now, on on the road on the edge on this fucking crumbling dirt road of democracy in a bus that's overcrowded with people that are trying to have hope and some are crying in the back of the bus and the sound system doesn't work

and the driver is sweating not a great journey There was a fucking earthquake here the other night. On top of everything else. Happy New Year, Jews. Happy New Year to everybody who don't acknowledge that this is the Jew New Year. We've been doing the New Year thing for 5,780 some odd years i think it is but uh happy new year to those in the tribe those who are uh adjacent to the tribe i hope the apples and honey work it's going to take a lot of apples and honey man a lot of fucking apples and honey and i know there are some people in this world that just are sort of like hey fuck it man there's not much we can do and I know there are some people in this world that just are sort of like, hey, fuck it, man.

There's not much we can do, and it was never good, and it was never going to a good place, and it was always inevitable. It doesn't end well for anybody, man. Just enjoy the ride situation. All right, I get that, but the ride stinks right now. It's a shitty amusement park. It's a fucked up, broken ride, and it doesn't look like the fucking It's a fucked up broken ride.

And it doesn't look like the fucking guy is even at the controls anymore. And the guy who seems to be running the whole park is out of his fucking mind. What is it? Metaphor day. Pow. Look out. Just shit my pants. Just coffee.coop. A little throwback. sorry am i too negative how you doing everything all right with the kid did you figure out what that thing was

maybe you should get some more detergent then i mean how long are you gonna put that off i know it's scary to go to the store but you know just fucking suit up and go suit up and go today we got a double header actually we have uh alicia keys for like a half hour and then john leguizamo for a bit for almost an hour just worked out that way sort of a new yorker real new yorker theme show today they both talk like uh they're from the fucking city you know because they are it's you know i i can explain it to you here's what happened i had a little scheduling botch you know i somehow the my doctor's appointment didn't show up in the calendar and i made it months ago and i needed to go and it kind of cut into the alicia keys time a little bit so we pushed it 15 minutes which was

fine but then i actually got back in time but they couldn't push it back and she only had an hour to begin with and then she was running 15 minutes late so point being we got about 30 minutes and i was focused now this is like one of those learning experiences you know really for me and in the in the big picture. You know, I didn't grow up with Alicia Keys. I know the song she did with Jay-Z. I think I've heard some of her biggest hits, but it really, really wasn't in my radar. Wasn't on my radar, wasn't in my world, but I know she was great.

I know she made big hits. I know she was a prodigy and a brilliant artist. I knew that, but I didn't know her stuff. So when this happens, I'm like, I think I should talk to her, but I'm going to have to get in it. I'm going to have to get into the work. So that makes me get into the work. So I listened to her past hits. Some of her past records did a little poking around in her history. But then I just focused on the new record, Alicia. So there's a record. It's been quite a few years since her last one. She's older now. She's wiser now. She's coming at it from a different angle. And I just kind of focused

on that record and listened to it and listened to the words and kind of absorbed where she was at and what she was talking about and kind of used that as a template. So this is like, if I ever do prepare, this is it. It's like, I take the piece of art that they've created and i see the span of their life through the lens of that piece of work the most uh recent work is how i done i did it with this one i don't know that i do it this way all the time but but it enabled me an immediacy to sort of connect with her and i don't know that her and i would have talked you know in if we ever in our lives it almost feels like we live in different worlds i don't know that if and I would have talked, you know, in, if we ever in our lives, it almost feels like we live in different worlds. I don't know that if we, if we did talk in another time that we would

have like talked this long. So it's sort of interesting. It's a real sort of like, you know, bridge, you know, to a type of music. I don't know, to an upbringing. I don't know. Culturally we're different in a lot of ways. And it was great. It was just sort of, I locked in with the work and I locked in with her. I'll And it was great. It was just sort of, I locked in with the work and I locked in with her. I'll share it with you, all right? Her new album, Alicia, is out now wherever you get music. And this is, just listen, we lock right in.

This is me and Alicia Key. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think

you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote.

Zensurance. mind your business. Hi, Alicia. Okay. Hi, Mark. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? I'm great.

Thank you. I'm really glad to be connecting with you. Yeah, it's nice to talk to you. I mean, is it crazy? You're doing a million of these now? I mean, no. I mean, I'm doing a lot of different things, but honestly, I feel great. I just, I feel, I feel excited.

I feel really in a special place right now. So I'm in my bliss. Yeah. Special place. And it took a while to get there? It's been a long while. And so I'm just glad to be here, man. Because I was noticing, like, it's been,

the last couple of records, you got about four years in between them. And then I was listening to the songs on this record, and I was like, wow, some shit went down. That's so good i don't know what but but there's a lot of reflection there seems to be some uh relationship difficulty a little shout out to uh people who are the less fortunate there's a fairly radical song about uh about the police but it seems like everything's covered. Yeah, I guess so.

You know, I mean, I couldn't even have guessed how this music was meant to be for this time. I mean, I feel like I've always been honored that my music is timeless, but I definitely couldn't imagine how the music that I wrote, you know, even two years ago, a year ago, however long ago it takes to put all of it together is relevant more than ever right now. You know, certain things are beyond your control and certain things are just how they're supposed to be. And I feel like I'm in one of those moments where it's just like everything is where it's supposed to be. Right. Well, sadly, you know, a song like Perfect Way to Die remains forever relevant until change comes. You know, I really can't wait because it's like I really know that there's so many of us that don't want to see that same situation played out.

We don't want to see this blatant disrespect for black lives. And we know daily. It's like it's like a barrage of like too much and it's not right. So I really can't wait for us to collectively decide to, to just never do that again. And it's interesting because like, I mean, you grew up in New York and you grew up like in, in a, in a part of New York that was rough and it would seem to me, and I know also that you did, you did some performing for like the police athletic league when you were younger. But the relationship, right, your personal relationship with the neighborhood and the police that you grew up with has got to be different than what you see right now. I mean, to be honest, I mean, there's always been a natural distrust for police officers, to be honest.

I mean, I can't say we didn't grow up in a way where it was like, oh, hey, go find a police officer and ask him to help. Like that's a whole nother neighborhood. And I think that's the point of a lot of these conversations that we're having right now in regards to where do funds go and, you know, what is actually the proper way to spend a city's funds. But it seems, you know, it seems like there's, you know, regardless of what you know or what you experience, there's definitely two Americas. And so it feels like one side of America can approach the police

and be protected by them, and another side can expect to be brutalized by them. So it's like kind of what it is. That's it. And where'd you grow up in new york in hell's kitchen hell's kitchen and also harlem like what it was hell's kitchen what was that in the 80s yeah it was like yeah the 80s the yeah it wasn't quite it wasn't it wasn't quite good yet was it no it's way far from being good it was it was nasty it was definitely i mean i like to say that it's

like the place where all the misfits and the outcasts and the unwanted ones were congregating and we between ninth and tenth yeah i was actually right on tenth so that was like right there highway yeah like the city just sort of drops off there it's like the edge of civilization right especially because it was before like now there's all these cool things on the piers and there's all these places and there's like stuff to do but at that time it was desolate like it was not you didn't you didn't dare go to the pier that was not the place where you went not if you wanted to come back right so it was it was it was it was so interesting how things evolve and everything.

But, yeah, that's what it was. And it was like it was it was just you and your mom. Yeah. I mean, my mother, my mother is amazing woman, single mother. She raised me, chose to have me and chose to fight for me. And she's, you know, incredible. Still my best friend to this day. So like growing up in that neighborhood, I mean, you know, being do you do you have siblings? I have a brother, but he didn't grow up with me in that neighborhood i mean you know being do you do you have siblings i have a brother but he didn't grow up with me in that neighborhood i was my mother's only child oh i'll get it i get do you have a relationship with that guy my brother yeah uh yes oh my gosh he's my he's my like baby i love him he's he's 10 years younger than me. So we have like a really beautiful brother sister vibe, but it's just,

it's like, he's almost like my first kid in a way, you know? So, so there's like a real, real love and protection there, but now he's all taller than me. So I'm like his little sister now and he's my big brother. Yeah. So like when, when you started getting into music, was it primarily to, to, you know, get to, to avoid, you know, the danger of that neighborhood? I think, you know, when I got into music, when I first got into music,

it was because I was definitely drawn. I was drawn to the piano and almost like a spiritual way that I don't even exactly know why or what made me it call me. So it definitely called me from a young age even before I could play. I knew I wanted to play even though I couldn't play. I wanted to. And so. Where'd you first see it?

Where do you remember first seeing like, you know, that's what I got to look at that. Yeah, I remember like walking down the street and passing piano stores, you know, in New York. And, you know, and I would just be fascinated, like, and I just put my nose to the window and look at it and just be like, I want to go in there and play, but I didn't know how to play. So what was I going to go in there and do, but I just knew I wanted to. And it was that type of energy. My grandmother, my mother's mother, played piano. And that was cool because when she would come stay with me, if my mother had to go away, we would practice piano together. And she definitely had a vibe like that. Other than that, there wasn't really anybody that played piano around me like that. My mother wasn't a very musician. She was an actor, but she wasn't a musician. But there was always creative energy around me all the time. And so I think I was always just kind of like taken in by that creative spirit and spark. What was the music in the house? Music in the house was, you know, a lot of jazz, a lot of kind of Ella Fitzgerald,

a lot of Bobby Caldwell, definitely some definitely some Miles Davis. And, uh, there was a lot of, uh, you know, Aretha Franklin's and Etta James and Marvin Gaye, the classics, all the classics. So you had that going and you, you know, you knew that that's pretty good range of stuff. And it was like, if you were to sort of explain where you're coming from, I'd say, you know, most of those are you're coming from i'd say you know most of those are it right yeah and then i think i meant obviously in my in my you know and then i was introduced from the streets and from my friends to naz and and wu-tang and biggie smalls and tupac and all of that all of that influence was like my secondary my other ether and so it

was kind of this mix between soul and then I was playing classical music. So I was playing Chopin and Satie and Debussy. And so it was this mixture between soul and classical and hip hop. Can you listen to classical now? Oh my God, so much. Really? I love it. I don't understand.

It's like the only music that I don't get. I mean, I, it's one of, it's like the only music that I don't get. I mean, I understand. I think when we finish, I think when we finish this conversation, you should listen to WC. Okay. I will. And that will give you a vibe because this,

there's look, there's plenty of classical music, plenty of classical, um, arrangements and music that I cannot listen to. It's too like hippity hippity. I don't want to hear that type. But when I'm hearing like this very soulful, moody, bluesy, dark chords,

and it's like gorgeous and the arrangements are unbelievable. I am like, my mind is blown. So it's definitely, I would say go for Debussy after this. Thank you. But you like, when you studied it did you like do you get the whole because like I don't even know how it works as a like I don't know how a symphony works I don't know what movements are I don't know you know why it fits together do you yeah I think that's yeah I do I do and I studied it and so I think that's a really

I'm really proud of that part of my um you know my my upbringing I think that's a really, I'm really proud of that part of my, you know, my, my upbringing. I think that it really gave me another perspective that a lot of people don't get a chance to explore and experience. And even with sight reading and even with just knowing how to read notes, period. a big um a big a big reason why i can't arrange and why i can hear voicings in my head in a way that i think other people's people's other people can't um but i you know i i think movements are the most beautiful one of one of my favorite um it's very very popular but one of my favorite chopin songs is chopin is one of my favorites too, is called The Raindrop Prelude. You've heard it before without question. But the second movement is actually, to me, the most beautiful because it feels like the thunder. And the more dark and bluesy for me, I'm like, put me in a mood, get me in my emotions. So it feels like the thunder and you can hear how it's cracking and growing and all of that. And so that's one of my favorites.

I love how movements go together and that there's actually a thought behind why it involves the song. And like I imagine in order to learn how to do that, you obviously had a gift for it, but you were very young when you started playing the piano. But the discipline it takes to do that and to get locked into that. And the sort of, it's almost, I just talked, I remember who I talked to about, about the military and about how his experience in the military defined how he approached work in general. You know, you could see it programmed his brain. So I imagine that that discipline must've been laid that wiring for you to get shit done. You know what? That's absolutely right. I mean, there was a certain level of discipline and there is a certain level of discipline that comes with classical music

that just doesn't come with anything else. You just can't pretend to play classical music. You have to study it. You have to work at it. You have to break it down. Each measure has to be broken down. The complexities are you're using sides of your brain that don't even usually go together. It's definitely like an experience that I'm grateful for. Of course, when I was a kid, I was like, that I'm grateful also that, of course, when I was a kid, I was like, y'all get off my back. Like, why do I have to practice this stuff? But the effort and the discipline of learning how to put in work is, you know, priceless. Nobody can outwork me because I understand what it means to put in work. Like, and I'm not afraid to put in work.

I'm also learning that I also have to take breaks and you have to be healthy and you can't, like, burn yourself to the ground because that's not afraid to put in work i'm also learning that i also have to take breaks and you have to be healthy and you can't like burn yourself to the ground because that's not gonna work either when did you learn that when i love that i know how to work no i didn't learn that for a long long time probably when i had my first kid and i was like oh you know somebody's more important than me so i have to you know pay attention well that's nice that you recognize that as a mother some mothers don't yeah it's definitely I mean once you got that little being in your hand you're like I cannot believe this being needs me for everything it's everything how many you got you have two yeah I have two my husband has three before me and I we have two together so we have five all together so I am definitely like it's so cool for me because I I get to see the spectrum like you know our kids are five and nine yeah but

I get to see like what happens when they're 13 what happens when they're 19 it's like a thing so I feel like it teaches me a lot for what you know what's gonna come and how i want to keep my keep open you know about it all well in in terms of like the work like i imagine that understanding classical classical music because you seem to collaborate with a lot of people and you seem to do it well which is sort of a unique thing it's sort of a gift and and i guess as an arranger on this record, you collaborated with a few people. Yeah. You know, I used to absolutely be so frightened of collaboration because it's so, you know, like exposing you get exposed all your things and the way that you feel. It's like you have to be so honest. So sometimes you don't want to be honest with a lot of people. But what if you're what if you're a monster one day?

Then all those people know. Yeah. You know? I mean, but that's the thing. I never met my monster until recently. And so I always hid my monster. And now I've truly learned how to let my monster out. It's a good thing.

Yeah. It's a good thing. But collaboration. So I enjoy collaborating. on this album i love collaborating with johnny mcdade he's a really really amazing writer and producer and person who could just honestly i just call him my therapist because we sit in a room and he'll ask me questions and no one will take the time to ask me or think about and so what that brings forth is is really really powerful uh I really enjoyed writing with a gentleman named

Sebastian Cole. We wrote Time Machine together and also Perfect Way to Die. And he's very prolific. I think he's one of the most powerful writers that I know. I also enjoyed working with The Dream. He's somebody that I hadn't worked with before, but I've always known of him. And when we got together, he has like a certain magic to him and like just energy to him. That's, you know, that's invigorating.

So it's cool. Cause you get to, you get nobody, nobody's going to come up with what I'm going to come up with. And I'm never going to come up with what they come up with. So when we put it together, it's like kind of fascinating. Yeah.

And they're, and they're ultimately working for, to honor your voice and your vision so whatever they bring you know it's only gonna you know broaden your trip you know yeah it enhances absolutely for sure 100 so when you were younger was there ever a time because i mean you had big hits right away it's interesting i was looking at some research that you know because aretha Aretha Franklin left Columbia, too, to go to Atlantic. I know. Right? For a similar reason.

That's the reason why I didn't feel so bad. That's why you didn't feel so bad? Yeah. Once I found out that they messed up with me, like Columbia definitely, you know, just didn't know what they had in me. And I can't blame them because I'm an anomaly and I'm definitely something that can't be defined and so you know business people don't like things that can't be defined no they won't put you in a box this is a commercial right right so so that so that that i don't blame them but once i found out that they didn't know what they had in aretha franklin too i was like oh they're just stupid yeah and. And she did like 10 records with them.

Crazy how long she was there. It's crazy. And then Jerry Wexler took her over at Atlantic and that was it. Man, and that was it. They found their match. And that's all it's about. You know, finding your match, finding where you belong. Yeah.

I just played Jerry Wexler in a movie with Jennifer Hudson in that Aretha. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So I was with Wexler in a movie with Jennifer Hudson in that Aretha. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I was with Jennifer. Which movie? It hasn't come out yet. Aretha Franklin movie. Respect.

Oh man. Jennifer plays Aretha. That's so good. That's going to be so good. You know what? I can see that. Yeah. I can totally see that.

You can completely be that. Be a cranky Jew? Yeah? I can see that. Yeah. I can totally see that. You can completely be that. Be a cranky Jew? Yeah, I can. Is that what you are? Sometimes. Right? I have my monster as well. And I've known my monster for a very long time.

When was the first time you met your monster? I was probably like 19. So that was the first time you let it out yeah i didn't know just uh i didn't know what he was up to but you know i was uh i was in my first real relationship and uh you know when you love somebody and you're not used to being vulnerable you know sometimes that's when the monster happens because it's scary like you have to protect yourself by all costs like you're not gonna you're not gonna hurt me i gotta protect myself that's right it's crazy yeah i get it i get it how did your when did you meet your monster well i only met my monster recently as i told you because i um you know uh in a lot of ways i think i've always been kind of the level headed one.

Yeah. And so it's always been my mother and I. So she was always kind of quite wearing all her emotions on her sleeve. And so I always had to be kind of the rational one and the one that made it all make sense and like figure it out and calm it down and that type of thing so i learned very early how to be very accommodating and pacifying which is a shame but right because it doesn't enable you to have your own feelings or to define your own personness i think so i think i think it definitely uh made me very accustomed to and comfortable with being accommodating and pacifying and that took a while to unwind oh yeah so finally when i started unwind that because i always had to be the accommodating one and always be the pacifying

one always had to be the one that made it okay and the one that made it better and all that shit finally after i unwound that i was like okay i look at look i can't fix everything and i can't fix your shit and look i can maybe i can fix mine i'm gonna try but i definitely i'm gonna have to focus on that and also just like taking off that weight to feel like you gotta put everything together well it's a relief because that's i think that's pretty much the classic kind of codependency thing right where you just feel like you can uh you're there to help somebody else you almost lose yourself in trying definitely trying to help other people and then one day you just spin out

right you just like right i'm over it yeah i'm not doing this anymore i'm not doing anymore but it's good because you got to get to that place i think yeah to know that you're yeah some things are just you're powerless over them you can't control it you can't fix it fuck it yeah you can give it up just give it up leave it alone just leave it alone so that's what that song is i'm done so done so done yes yes i'm done guarding my tongue holding me back i'm living the way that i want i'm done fighting myself going through hell i'm living the way that i want like finally be done oh it feels so good just like that song feels good it feels good well so i but like outside of relationships i imagine like from the beginning once you started doing that first record once you moved over with like who are you with clive davis right you know

and you started making those hits and putting all that work in that you must've been like, just submerged with that personality, just in the work. And you're just churning out the music all the time. You probably, did you have a life when you were younger? Oh, no, I didn't know. I mean, you know, everything, everything happened for me very young, which is amazing and a beautiful blessing. But it's also kind of crazy to have to manage everything and figure everything out and keep it all kind of spinning from about 18 on, 18 until today. So I definitely didn't really have a traditional teenage experience i didn't have a traditional young adult experience and a lot of the times um it's interesting for me when i think back on that but i feel very normal and i'm really i think i'm more normal than people that probably had those traditional experiences and maybe in some way i was able

to you know thanks to my mother i think she's very much a realist and she always kept me very grounded and also thanks to New York City I mean New York City you know that's solid you know what I mean like you know New York City is almost like when you grow up there and you spend that life there it's almost apparent in a way there's something about you're right the personality in New York you are so right because I think the first time that I really you know came in contact with making a lot of choices for myself and especially under the scrutiny of people or whatever, pressure of whatever, I knew what I didn't want right away. And I knew I didn't want it because of New York. I was like, I don't know about all these other things. But what I know is that I'm not going to be doing this.

And that was helpful. It really did. It did parent me in a lot of ways. Yeah. And I think, like, you know, especially, you know, with the huge song. I mean, you know, Empire State of Mind, it's almost replaced New York, New York as the song for New York. You guys did it. No, that's crazy.

No, I mean, that's literally crazy and we're we're super proud of it and we always look at each other like what like seriously but like it seems like but you're you're like a lot of these songs it's very hard for me to on the new record i mean just stay with that like it seems like the underdog song is sort of a almost like an anthem out of respect for you know people that struggle and struggle and, you know, from what, in some ways, a little bit what you came from, maybe. A lot of what I came from, I mean, I definitely defy the odds. My mother defied the odds for sure. Yeah. Without question. So there's no question that that's our life. And it's also the hundreds and thousands of other people that, you know, are are not expected to to to be able to make it out of whatever situation or circumstance they're in currently.

And I think, you know, we all have that possibility, you know, so it's definitely that's why that song is so the song is actually really about like when you also when you meet people and you don't know them and how do you actually open yourself to do do we actually see each other or do we kind of just pass each other in our busyness do we know our story each other's stories or do we just kind of like you know we're so ingratiated in our world well that's sort of like in a few of the songs like Gramercy Park it like too a little bit right Gramercy Park Park is one of my favorites like one of my favorite songs I ever wrote. I love that groove on there and like it's really kind of an intimate song it's not you know it's a little more

it feels personal like the instrumentation feels very sort of candid and you know what I mean like it's definitely very raw very stripped back. Yeah yeah. Totally like you know folksy and I love that about it but i love most importantly is like about the way that you change yourself unknowingly because you love

somebody thinking that you're doing it out of love but only to find out that you've lost yourself in the right right because that's what i was saying when i heard it i was like because there's a line in there where it's sort of like you, you fell in love with somebody like you don't even know really or something like something along those lines. Right. Now you've fallen for a person that's not even me because I forgot about the person that I used to be. Oh, my God. Did you. Is everything OK with your husband?

What's going on? That is, you know, honestly, I find that me and my husband are amazing. that is, you know, honestly, I find that me and my husband are amazing. I think that I find that happens with my friends and different relationships that I've had in the past where I wasn't so solid or I didn't really understand how to be clearly myself.

I was like a more of a shape shifter because, you know, I was just learning. Yeah. It's kind of, yeah. I was wondering about that. And truth without love is a lie.

Where'd that come from? I love that. I mean, that's one of my favorite songs. It's a nice, it's like the freight, like I can't stop thinking about the poetry of it. Yeah. I mean, I think that it means a lot of things to a lot of people under different circumstances. But for me, I feel like you can have all the truth in the world and you can be spitting all the truth in the world and you can be spitting all the truth in the world. But if you are not saying it with love, how does that person receive it? Is it actually the truth or is it just a lie? So it's like, I think that, I think there's such a power

in that poetry. You're right. And, and, you know, you, you know, it's like this, this, this honest delivery in that song that I love. Yeah, and you can also use, like, truth as a weapon. Sometimes, you know, not saying something is more loving than saying something. That's true. That is true. But I think it's interesting you say that you didn't know, like, who you were, how to hold on to yourself throughout a lot of what you were doing.

Because, like, I feel that on this record when I listen to the other records that you know you're kind of your voice is in the cradle of yourself now you know what i mean yes like i mean i i mean you could you have a great voice you've always had a great voice but now you feel some wisdom and now like you know you're connecting to that wisdom and to you know to your heart you know you're, you know what I mean? It, it, you can definitely feel the weight of it now. I also realized that I don't have to try so hard. I think sometimes, you know, you, you try so hard to like hit the thing or sing it strong or do this impressive, whatever. And it's like,

at some point you can actually just speak your truth and just say what you feel and you can deliver it in so many different ways. And's not just one way to be great and i think that you know that's what some of the stereotypes and we have to break down as humans because we think man i'm only great if i so so it's it's cool to be able to not have to try so hard right and sometimes like if you're one of those people that never thinks you're doing good enough there's no end to that and you're just gonna you know burn yourself out right you'll never be happy you're one of those people that never thinks you're doing good enough, there's no end to that. And you're just going to, you know, burn yourself out. Right? You'll never be happy.

You're right. You do have to recognize what's special about you, you know? And also just be like, that was good. You know, like, I did all right. Here's the thing I always do is sort of like, I've been doing this a long fucking time. So, like, right? So, like, you know, whatever I think about it, I've been doing this a long fucking time. So like, right. So like, you know, whatever I think about it, I know how to do this. So like, I don't have to beat myself up thinking I don't know how to do stand up or whatever the hell I do. Right. So I,

and then you can relax a little bit and at least enjoy what you do. You know, and I, strangely enough, I have a kind of an opposite feeling. I feel like every time I do what I do, I don't know what I'm doing. And I actually, I mean, of course, I know I've done it before, but I don't exactly know how it's going to come to fruition this time. And that's okay, though. I'm cool with that. Whereas before, I think I felt like I had to know or I had to be able to be in control.

And was it going to be good enough? And what if it wasn't good? I worry less about that now. But you know you have the skill set. You may not know how the piece is going to unfold, but you know I can play piano. I can sing. I can work with these people. I can write the song.

We don't know what's going to happen, but the craft is in place. Yes, yes. I definitely put in my 40,000 hours, so it was good about that. I'll say. is in place. Yes, yes. I definitely put in my 40,000 hours. So I'll say, I'll say, well, look, I know you got to go. Maybe we can pick it up again. It was great talking to you. I love the record. Amen.

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to talk to you. Thank you for thinking about it, being, putting your mind on it and connecting with me and, and all the good things. I can't wait to talk to you again. Okay, good. Take care. Good luck with the record. Thank you't wait to talk to you again okay good take care good luck

with the record thank you man talk to you later that was fun right we locked in i liked her a lot and i like the new record her new record uh alicia is out now wherever you get your music. So here's an upbeat thing before we get to John Leguizamo. I've changed my opinion. I've changed a long-held opinion. And I'll share it with you. And it was not a great opinion, but I didn't...

Years ago when I saw Robert Altman's Long Goodbye with Elliot G Gould I didn't think it worked yeah granted as time went on I realized I was the only one that thought that and I love Altman he made one of my favorite movies of all time McCabe and Mrs. Miller but I just couldn't lock into The Long Goodbye and for some reason last night I don't know how I got there I ended up watching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest which which, you know, I don't know if you've read that book by Ken Kesey. The book is genius. It's written from the point of view of Chief.

But the movie's pretty fucking great, too. And that last scene where Chief's like, I'm going to take you with me. You know, it's like, wow. All right. But then I got from there somehow to The Long Goodbye. And it was fucking great. Elliot Gould was great just turning that form, the private dick movie on its head in that 70s way. Sterling Hayden.

I mean, it's just like I was completely flabbergasted at my younger self for being such a dummy. Do yourself a favor and watch The Long Goodbye. I think it's on Amazon Prime is where I watched it. And, of course, cuckoo's nest if you haven't seen that lately they're working you like they worked my father the combine that's in the book anyway look john leguizamo is somebody i never really met though he claims we did but i don't it's all right i'm surprised i didn't I used to be on the Lower East Side a bit and yeah I knew he'd come from there at some point anyways it just it hasn't happened

we haven't met we haven't talked and I didn't know how it would go but he's got this new movie called Critical Thinking that he stars in and he directed and you can watch it on most video on demand platforms and he put his heart into it and he puts his heart into all his stuff that he's doing on terms of like, especially his solo shows. And I was happy that the conversation went well. This is me talking to John Leguizamo. Now you're sideways. That's interesting. It'll come around.

Hold on. Give it a moment. You're high maintenance. Yeah, I am. I'm high maintenance? Me? What is... Where are you? Are you in New York?

I'm in Mani Hattie. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I see you got your emmy behind you is that an emmy yeah subliminal yeah with that's for freak yeah that was for freak yeah so tony's upstairs how many you got one of those or two of those i got only one of those uh-huh well you got to get it up there You got to get up there next to the other statue. No, I spread it around, so I boost myself on every floor. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So, like, every room you walk into, you're like, look what I did.

There's a little something. There's a little tribute to my achievements. I'm winning. Look at that. Now that I can't leave my house for very long, it's nice to see what I've won. Yeah, my self-esteem starts to drop quickly. Believe me. It's kind of true, isn't it?

It's weird that when you're kind of isolated and you can't really do anything, even walk down the street to at least get someone stranger to go, hey, man, I love your shit. You're just walking around. Hey, John. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, Johnny. Johnny.

That's how I get in New York all the time. Hey, Johnny. But that feels good. And if you don't get that little boost on a day-to-day basis, you walk around your house thinking like,

who the fuck am I? Did I do anything? But you know better than to Google yourself. No, I never do that. You know the nightmares of that sucker. Woo.

I don't do that. If you do that once, you'll never do it again because the first 10 or 15 are like, you're incredible. I love you. You're amazing.

Then after that, it's like, you suck. You're the worst. You're a piece of shit. You're fake. You are like, you're incredible. I love you. You're amazing. Then after that, it's like, you suck. You're the worst. You're a piece of shit. You're fake. You're like, what? Yeah. It's terrifying.

It's like a horrendous speedball. You're like, you're up, you're up, you're up. And then you get knocked down. You're like, oh, fuck. And then you're up again. And then you're down. I don't do it. I don't do it.

I love the analogy. Yeah. Well, that's what it is, really, except that one side is terrible. I mean, I think at least with the speedball, both sides are, they're different, but they're both good. Right, right.

No, no, no. Google, I mean, you Google yourself after that first, you know, it gets really dark, very dark. And anonymity is a strange drug for people. Yeah, no. It's not the social media so much. It's the feeling that they don't, because they wouldn't say that to your face.

Right, of course not. None of them would come up to you, even if they're bigger than you and they could beat you, they still wouldn't come up to your face and say that. Yeah. But anonymously, they feel like, well, I could, you'll never know.

I could say this and that. And you know what though? You know what I realized though is a lot of those, a lot of them, it's their fucking hobby, man. It might not even be how they feel. They're just choosing to fuck with you.

They're trying to get you to react. This is like their game. They get off on that. They get off on that. Yeah. That's the definition. Negativity monsters. Yeah, yeah.

The definition of trolling is to poke at you until they hit your fucking sensitivity and you react. As soon as you go, fuck you, they're like, dude, I did it. Woo, real minute, real minute, real minute. Oh, oh, oh, oh, he got me. He got him. Yeah, and if you fucking get into it with him, I used to, like way back in the day, you find yourself like spending 20 minutes on Twitter

arguing with a guy with no picture, no name, and four followers. And you're like, what the fuck is wrong with me? You lost half an hour of your life that you can't get back. I know, man. And then people stop being on your side too because they feel like you're being mean or something. Yeah, yeah. Why are you beating up on the guy with no friends?

Yeah, yeah. No followers. It's not even a real person. So we've never met before, I don't think, have we? Yeah, we have. It it's okay you don't have to remember me it's fine it happens no i remember you i know you but where do you don't remember me where was it yeah i know you but where no yeah where emmys remember we were at the emmy party together a couple times oh i've only been to the emmys once once one time then how come i

remember i've been there a lot of times. How come I remember you? Because I make an impression, John. You already made an impression. It must be you. It must be your charisma. Yeah, exactly. No, but I mean, of course I know you, but we were in New York at the same time.

I never met you when we were kids. I was in New York. I was on the Lower East Side, 89 to 92, and then at 16th and- I was there a was in New York I was on the Lower East Side 89 to 92 and then at 16 I was there a lot yeah and then I was at 16th and 3rd from like you know 93 and 9 to 95 then out in Astoria forever but like I like I'd heard I knew you around right weren't you a Lower East Side guy oh yeah yeah yeah I was I was LES, I'm from Jackson Heights, Queens. That's where I'm from. But, you know, I made my mark was in LES. You know, all the performance

art spaces downtown. I lived on Stanton and Ridge. Then I lived on 7th and C&D for a long, long time. You remember Hammerhead? Oh, yeah. Do you remember later on the game, do you remember Zoom Schneider, that crazy bar? Where was it?

Esperanto, you remember? That was later. That was later. That was like in the late 90s, early 2000s. Oh, no. When it started to gentrify. Oh, you're talking about Save the Robots. You're talking about Save the Robots.

You're talking about... I lived on 2nd between A and B, right by that weird... Oh, wow. Yeah. The garage. That was the garage. 89. that weird school. Oh, wow. Yeah. The garage. That was the garage. 89. I performed there.

That was a performance space. Right. I did stick around there. You did to start? Yeah. At the beginning? I started there, yeah. So you grew up in Jackson Heights until what age?

What do you mean until what age? I lived like until college and then I left. Oh, but you lived on the, oh, when you went to college, then I left. Oh, and then, but you didn't, but you lived on, oh, when you went to college, you moved into the city. Right, right. Well, I lived at, I was at CW Post first for two years, then transferred to NYU. Then I lived with my brother at Columbia

because I had no money. How many brothers and sisters you got? Just one? Well, I have one full brother, two step sisters, three half brothers and sisters. Oh my God. Big family. My father couldn't focus

he could just on different things yeah yeah yeah yeah a little sexual adhd yeah yeah yeah you'll work for now so uh so like when did you start uh you started when did you start doing the performing? I mean, I'm trying to get a timeline. Oh, mid-'80s, mid-'80s. So I was at the First Amendment Improv Company on Bond Street. You know, like, everybody was performing there, except when I got there, it was on the downhill. When the fuck was that? In the mid-'80s?

Yeah, yeah. I don't know, because that was before I got there. Bruce Willis was coming down. Robin Williams was coming down. Everybody. But when I got there. Bruce Willis was coming down. Robin Williams was coming down. Everybody. But when I got there, they stopped coming. I don't remember that place at all. Maybe because I was all stand up.

So I didn't know nothing about. Oh, that was the improv circuit. Yeah. And then I was at Gusto House, Avenue A and like 6th Street. I was at Knitting Factory, Dixon Place, La Cucaracha, Home. These are all the performance art spaces.

I was doing the clubs too, like the open mic night at Catch a Rising Star Mondays, you know, get the lottery and whatnot at Comic Strip, running Dangerfield. You were going to try those? You did those? The Dangerfield, Catch a Rising Star, Comic Strip? Yeah, I didn't like it as much. How old were you?

Like 19, 20? 20. So like, now when you did Stand Up, because that's my world, I kind of knew, I kind of, I don't think I ever saw you around.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to put down your world. No, no, I don't care. You don't give a shit what I say. No, I mean, you could put down my world, but we got rid of you. You couldn't hack it.

We got rid of you. You didn't stay in our world. You went to the other world. Okay. It was not my, you can put down my world, but we got rid of you. You couldn't hack it. We got rid of you. You didn't stay in our world. You went to the other world. Okay. It was not my world. It was not my world. It was like, I felt like, you know, like, I felt like a fish out of water. I was like, it's set up, punchline, set up, punchline, all these drunk motherfuckers.

I'm like, I can't perform for you. What were you doing when you did stand up? Were you doing characters? Right. I was doing characters and stories. And then my girlfriend at the time, we used to do sketch comedy and improv. Obviously, we'd travel around everywhere and do improv with different improv groups. But I found myself was doing my 30-minute little monologues full of characters.

Like if the Bible, if Jesus were latin if the west had been won by latin people instead of lost and you know i would do those kind of things and and people dug it so i was like this is my thing so no so no no thanks because you would do that stuff and they wouldn't they wouldn't get they wouldn't get on board they couldn't follow it it was it took too long it took too long to set up yeah yeah, too setup-y. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just want a quick little quickie. Yeah, punch it out. And I was like, nah, you got to earn me.

So that's right. So at age 20, you're like, fuck stand-up, going back downtown and just digging in. And were you taking classes at the time? Yeah, I was taking acting classes since I was 17 with some of the greats. I was always the only Latin guy. And these teachers were so beautiful and mentoring. And they knew they boosted me. They knew that they needed to help me out.

And Herbert Berghoff, who owned HB Studios, I was in his class for a couple of years. Lee Strasberg for a little bit. You were around when Lee was alive? I was in his class one day, his last day on earth, at Lee Strasburg Institute on 15th Street. I did a sense memory exercise

of something from my childhood and he died that night because of my acting, I'm pretty sure. It's not proven. That just made you work harder. I'm pretty sure. It's not proven. That just made you work harder. I don't have evidence, but I'm pretty sure it was my acting that killed him.

Really? You were in his class when he passed away? He was old. Wasn't he old? Oh, very, very, very. He had like a click in his throat. Like, and I wanted to try to do that a little better than that. They're like that very quiet. You could hardly hear them, and they had that

clicky thing. Right. But at that age, did you find yourself like... I took classes from a guy named Michael Howard in New York. Oh, yeah. Famous, famous, famous. Yeah. Legendary.

They get to a certain age. Are you finding that you were there because you wanted to be around the guy and his history or you're actually learning something? No, I learned. I feel like my acting totally changed. I mean, I love HB Studios. I learned a lot about scene study and scene breakdown and motivation, previous circumstances. I'm going to get mad acting nerd with you now.

And then with Strasberg, it was more about imagination. now okay and uh and then with strasburg it was it was more about imagination it's what made me do my one-man shows because you learned how to create an environment imaginarily talk to imaginary people you know you created that all from your imagination so i never felt alone on broadway because i had my imagination and it was vivid to me so he freed the method. Right. Yes. Yeah. When you developed the first show, which was that? Mamba Mouth, 1990. 1990. I was 10. You don't believe me, motherfucker.

He's like, nah, I know you weren't. But where did you work that out? I worked out everywhere. Home, Dixon Place. What was the woman's name who owned Dixon Place? Ellie Kovat. And who were the guys? Because it was so weird that by the 90s, you know, I was locked into stand-up.

But there was still what was left of the performance arts scene from the 80s. But then there were new people like, you know, like Surf Reality, Collective Unconscious. There was all these new kind of venues. But you kind of got the tail end of the original crew. So did Boghossian come up with you, or he's a little before you? Yeah, PS122, that was Boghossian right there. He was a little before me because, obviously, he's one of my mentors, one of the people that inspired me.

But he was right before me. So did you see what made you realize that you could do these kind like because the one person show thing is it's a blessing and a curse to ain't no curse ain't there ain't no curse to it no i mean there are guys what do you mean you got to explain yourself i will i will you better come correct come i will i will i'm talking as a stand-up comic who is out there hammering it out and figured it out in front of fucking strangers who didn't give a fuck all right now but wait no just hang out there i'm just saying that not unlike stand-up they're just there's some people that are really good at it, and then there's a lot of people that did some really bad one-man shows.

That's all I'm saying. Oh, no, no, no doubt, no doubt, no doubt. It gave people a false sense of hope for their future in theater. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. No, there were definitely a lot of bad one-man shows. But, you know, before our generation, my generation, it was always like, you know, one-man shows were Samuel Clemens, not even Mark Twain, Samuel Clemens, young Abe Lincoln. It was all those, like, very literary bios, you know what I mean?

And then it got funkier. Right. But there was a difference between, like, what Spalding Gray was doing and what you were doing right there there definitely became a point where because you and bogosian where people are like i'm going to do a a parade of characters like you know it seemed like spalding was more like mark twain where he would focus in on an essay and you know and in his manic sense you know know, present this thing. In a very raw, naked way, which was the beauty of him. It was so good. There was no filter. There was no pretense or trying to, like, shape it to make it more palatable.

And then you got Eric Bogosian brought the characters and the sex. And then Whoopi Goldberg brought the ghetto poetry. Yeah. And then Lily Tomlin brought the play. She was old school. That's probably the beginning of it right there, really, right, Lily? Yeah, Lily was the one that really brought it. And then I took something from everybody and created my own hybrid,

which was the autobiographical play that you did yourself, and I played all the characters in it. Right. And that was what I brought to it. Yeah, no, for sure. I was watching, you remember, just to go back for a second, you remember when Spalding, he would always have this huge book that he'd hardly ever look at, like stuff that he'd written,

but he'd turn the pages, but he never fucking looked at it. So fast, because you know he couldn't read it that fast. Oh, my God. But he needed that. It was his crutch. You know, everybody's got, you know. Oh, definitely. Yeah.

Something to lean on. Yeah. But did you, you remember, like, you know oh definitely yeah something to lean on some yeah but did you remember like you know there was also that other world of performance art that was just fucking out there I mean you probably saw that too because you were young and it was still happening like Karen Finley oh no I was there and like who was the guy that used

to cut himself Athie right right right right there were all those really interesting odd pushing the envelope kind of stuff. I was with them. You know, I'd be warming up with them. They'd be naked and doing their thing and smacking themselves on the head

with the concrete walls. And then I go, I go up next and I got to do my little story. They were probably relieved by the time you got up there. They didn't know what the hell. I mean, I was the oddball. It was like when you watch the monsters and marilyn's the normal one yeah that's what it was like but they thought she was ugly yeah so what was it that like what what was the

show that really made you realize that you could do what you wanted to do was it bogosian i think it was lily man when i saw lily Lily, I was like, that's me. That's what I want to do. I've been doing something like it, but this is what I want to do. But I want to just make it about my life. Make it personal. And I added costumes to it. Yeah, you did.

Yeah, yeah. I added more of a through line. Right. And then it became sort of this crazy hybrid that everybody you know, everybody else started borrowing, you know. Yeah. Billy Crystal used it and Lane Stritch. So what was the, how did it work? Did you write mostly on stage or did you write on the page first?

It's a combo. So I'll write it all out and then a lot of improv, a lot of improv, a lot of rewriting, improv. So you record it, you record it, you record it? Or no? No, I don't record. I can't watch myself because then I start to hate myself. But not even on tape? No, no.

I can't even stand to hear myself. Still? No, I can't. I can't. I have to just be in the moment and write it and just be. Dude, I'm the same way, man. I mean, I'm the same way. I can't.

Like, I'll record. I've recorded shit forever. I got boxes of fucking tape. Who wants to listen to them damn songs? I don't listen to it. But I have it. Hell no. Yeah.

Yeah, it's impossible. But that's interesting. It's an interesting process. So you make notes, then you go riff it out. And ultimately what happens is over repetition, you find the groove you want to keep. Right, right, right. And then you're in it. And then later

on what i found out was when i hit my 300th show it's when it's gelled 300 that's when it's finally jumped oh yeah holy fuck because because you know it's it's a massive undertaking it's two hours of my own personal life and and personal life does not fit in three-act structure it just doesn't naturally fit in so it's a really painstaking thing to make it a three act structure. So that, that's the difficulty of it. And it's gotta be mad funny. Right. It's gotta be mad moving and it's gotta, uh, you know, cause my life's not that fascinating. So it's more about my execution than it is about my, my, my fascinating life. Cause that's the only two types of one man shows there are. That's like, you have a crazy, incredible life and you

just tell it, or you're an incredible storyteller and your life's okay. You know, it's so weird how everything is fragmented now because like the, the type of one man show that you did, I mean, they happen occasionally. I mean, maybe they'll happen again after the fucking plague,

but you know, it seems like, you know, Ted talks and all this other sort of, all these other outlets have really kind of hijacked the, the sort of purity of the type of theater that you were doing you know what i mean because now people right right you know now all of a sudden you hear about this ted talk and people are like that's the best thing i've ever

seen on stage yeah yeah it's like what the fuck you know like it used to be like there was only a handful of guys doing this shit and women you know and it was special but now it seems like all the everyone can do whatever the everyone could do it now and either but it's still different it's still different i mean sure i know i know history for morons the the way the audience felt especially obviously if you were latinx i mean the emotions that were going through people was so intense i could hear it on stage i could hear i could hear people gasping i could hear people moaning i could hear it on stage. I could hear, I could hear people gasping. I could hear people moaning. I could hear people sobbing quietly just because of all the, all the pain that I drugged, I dredged up, you know what I mean? And I knew it because I felt that when I was doing

the research, how much pain I felt at the psychosocial erasure of Latin people, you know, because we're like the largest minority in this country, largest ethnic group, you know, we're almost 70 million Americans in this country, including my undocumented Latin brothers and sisters, we're the largest voting bloc, 32 million registered voters, 73% Democratic. We're 30% of the public schools in the nation. We're 50% of the population in LA, equal to whites in New York City in population, and less than 3% of the faces on camera, less than 2% of the faces behind the camera, less than 1% of the stories being told. The smallest represented ethnic group in children's picture books. How sad is that, that a child can't even see himself reflected back in a positive way?

Can't find himself in a comic book, can't find himself in a picture book, can't find himself. How does that child project himself into the future? That's psychosocial erasure. That's how we Latin people have come from, you know, and we continue to thrive and survive. We contribute $1.3 trillion to the U.S. economy every year. If we were our own country, we'd be the 10th largest country in the world, bigger than England. Our women are number one in small business creations at 87%.

We saved the housing market at 68% last year. God damn it. Give me my equal opportunity. Give me my equal share of the fucking box office. Of representation. Yes. Yeah, I thought that was an interesting line because it was sort of a throwaway line in the new movie

in Critical Thinking, the film that you directed. But I was sort of hung up on when you said that these textbooks are written in texas you know that is true i know it's true i make that up no i know but but but like there there is a control like you know what you're saying the systemic racism uh uh it it also is has this profound effect on the Latino community. You know, it's brown people in general, and that what the information these kids are getting in public schools is incredibly limited by design. Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah, and I thought that was... It controls power. It controls who... If the hunter gets to tell the story, you're never going to hear the lion's side. Right. And we land people happen to be the lion's side because we didn't just get here. We've been here for 500 years. We discovered America. We found it. We built it. The British took it from us. The Americans took the Southwest. And before that, we were indigenous empires,

the biggest in the world, Incas, Mayas, Aztecs, Comanche, Apache. And we're still contributing. Well, I'm sorry. I lived in New Mexico when I was a kid. And so I apologize. Oh, my God. New Mexico. I love New Mexico.

Yo, it's all Democrat. No, it's beautiful. I was just there. I grew up in Albuquerque. I just went up to Taos for four days just to hang out and clear my fucking head, man. I can't take this shit. That's what everybody does out there.

Everybody's always going to Taos to clear their head. Yeah. It's a, I didn't realize it was such a thing. When I was a kid, we'd go ski there, but I never, I never went as a grownup.

It's the first time I went as a grownup and it was like, holy shit, this is beautiful. Yeah. When I grew up, right now I'm all right. Yeah. This't great but uh no no but for nobody for anybody trust me yeah i didn't have towels but i still wasn't clear-headed yeah i uh but uh but when i grew up i think albuquerque was like 60 or 70 percent chicano and it was like it was just oh

wow it was just that was what it was man you know i knew like i love when he said, I was watching one of the oldies that I think I was watching Spicker Ramen. Didn't you have a friend named Chewy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You must have had some Chewy. There was some Chewys, man. But that was usually because their last name was Archuleta. So it was Chewy.

I love that name Chewy, man. It's such a dope name. It's great. Such a Chicano flavor. Yeah. For fucking sure, man. There's a Coke dealer who used to sell at the comedy store name Chewy man It's such a dope name It's great Such a Chicano flavor Yeah For fucking sure man There's a coke dealer Who used to sell at the comedy store

Named Chewy He used to wear a bowler Like the bowler hat That big black jacket Chewy Right right The little Chicano look The homie look

Yeah yeah You know the word homie Comes from Chicano brothers In jail Asking What hometown are you from Are you from my hometown are you my

homeboy that's where the word homeboy comes oh no shit it was yeah it was weird when I was growing up because like you grew up on the east coast so that the the the kind of different yeah the spectrum of of Latin is different like where I grew up more Caribbean yeah when I where I grew up is all uh you know Mexican Latinos and I was in high school when the shift from I think you're a little younger than me, I don't know but I was in high school when the shift from disco to cholo happened like 77

everyone's wearing leather jacket, platform shoes, feather hair but by 1980, fucking button up flannels, chinos white t-shirt, bandanas everything fucking shifted what do you what do you think that was what do you think that was what do you think i think it was i think it was a movement in uh you know claiming latino identity i i think that political political well

i mean i just think it was sort of it was a it was some sort of reaction i'm sure there's somebody that knows better than i do but but you know the you know, the low rider thing, I mean, I saw the transition. There was a time where, you know, it was just like, you know, leather jackets and feathered hair and, you know, the fucking bell bottoms and shit. And then all of a sudden the Cholo thing happened. It was like, uh, it was definitely activism. Yeah. But, you know, that's the same thing that was happening here. Uh, although, you know, this side is definitely much more Caribbean and, and obviously Colombian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, This side is definitely much more Caribbean and obviously Colombian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican, and Ecuadorians and Peruvians. We got a lot here, too.

But I remember the late 70s, too. It was a disco scene. Everybody, three-piece suits. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, everybody started getting hip-hop. It was the birth of hip-hop in New York City, too, in the VX. And everybody started changing, you know.

Everybody started wearing baggy, baggy clothes. Right, same shit. Baggy T-shirts. Yeah, yeah. You know, the baseball hats. Everyone got a little harder. Yeah, yeah. Fronting, a little fronting.

Right, right. And it was totally a different vibe and less, you know, less cocaine, more weed, more guns, you know. Oh, yeah, it got a little tougher yeah yeah it must have been also linked up to stagflation because that's also when that happened you know the country was in terrible inflationary uh uh dire straits you know right yeah man and the economy was bad you know and obviously the people who suffered the most are always black and brown people at the bottom. And that's where you kind of, I mean, that is the pop culture that you grew up in.

Oh, yeah. I mean, disco to hip hop, that was my life. Trying to break dance, have my cardboard box that, you know, I could barely spin, rip my hair out of my head. Almost dislocated my neck. When I broke dance, I broke things. That's how that came out so did you ever get the hang of break dance i just look better for wear no you do you look good man you're holding up you're holding up you really are brown don't frown i uh yeah i want it was weird how i mean can you watch your old shit because i decided like i watched the new movie critical thinking

which i liked and i thought it was a noble undertaking to sort of share the story of those kids. Because like really kind of like disenfranchised, poor. Noble? What do you mean noble? Well, I mean. Noble, noble, that kind of sounded condescending. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. No, I mean like to celebrate, you know, the underdog and to celebrate the underdog, you know, in a sort of economically compromised way. Like these aren't characters you see all the underdog and to celebrate the underdog, you know, in a, in a sort of economically compromised way.

Like these aren't characters you see all the time. So I, I, I met Noble in that it was, it was good, you know, it was an important film for me. Cause you know, uh, I love these feel good movies and I think they're really important for us to have much more positive images of Latin people than negative because then, then, you then, then, you know, at least as vulnerable to demonization,

like what happened in, you know, Paso where they shot 23 innocent Latin people just being Latin during shopping in the mall. Yeah. So, you know, and you know,

hate crimes are up against Latin people. Every other group is down except Latin people. Jews are up. Jews are up. Not as much as Latin people, but yeah, but we don't wants are up jews are up not as much as latin people but yeah but we don't want to compete for that that's not yeah yeah we're winning it's not a good time to be latin and jewish yeah which are my kids they're both they have both oh really yeah yeah my kids are half jews little jew ricans um it's a beautiful mix it's a great mix no no

for sure yeah yeah yeah uh so you you thought it was important to tell the story it's a beautiful mix it's a great mix no no for sure yeah yeah yeah uh so you you thought it was important to tell the story it's sort of like it reminded me of those movies like stand and deliver like yeah my favorite my favorite movie ever man i love that flick yeah so you know because it was inspiring to me like as a young man to see that and go sorry about that uh sorry about that as a young man to see that it was so inspiring to me. It was like, oh my God, we can do great things. We can be mentors. We can uplift. And so to follow in those footsteps is such an honor for me, you know? of five latin and black kids from the ghettoist ghetto in miami over town that in 1998 this teacher mary martinez made them regional champs all over florida kicked ass everywhere and they had no supplies in chess and chess thank you in chess and then state champions and then took them all the way to national champs in america they won yeah they won yeah and it's like it's a great

it's a great underdog story because it breaks stereotypes. And, you know, you're able to play these. Yeah, you can play these kids who are sort of like, they're stuck in that world of trying to front a little bit, but they're innately intelligent and kind of nerdy and they're chess geeks. Right, right. But they still live in this world of, you know, hardened criminals and poverty. geeks right right but they still live in this world of of you know hardened criminals and poverty and uh you know it's just it's i always like seeing that you i mean you did that in uh spicarama too i mean the the narrator of spicarama you know was a nerdy kid and and right right you don't make these associations all the time is that being part of the stereotype and it's there's a

vulnerability to it built in that that is very uh you know engaging and and endearing you know right right because there's a lot of ghetto nerds and a lot of gifted kids in our communities street intellectuals yeah they exist i mean that's what that's that's uh of course america doesn't doesn't understand that you know they're they're millions of gifted kids in these communities that just never get to shine, never get, you know, tapped on the shoulder by somebody, never get mentored. And they, you know, wasted lives and wasted dreams. They get just, you know, steamrolled or bullied or turned out by criminal culture. But I know, I mean, I was like, you know, I was ignorant.

I didn't know there were black nerds until maybe eight years like, you know, I was ignorant. I didn't know there were black nerds until maybe eight years ago, you know, and it was so ridiculous, even with the existence of Urkel. So what did, I just watched that documentary just by coincidence on, on Winn Handman. And he seemed like an impressive guy that seemed to have some, some impact on you. Is that right? Oh, yeah. You know, he just passed of COVID two months ago. 98.

Yeah, yeah, incredible. What a national treasure he was. And he was inspirational to me, to Eric Boghossian, to Denzel Washington, Alec Baldwin, all these great actors studied in his class. And he was instrumental in my beginnings. all these great actors studied in his class. And, and he was instrumental in, in, in my beginnings. Uh,

I, I brought mama mouth to his class and, and he got a kick out of my crazy ass. Do we go big in all these costumes? Yeah. We go these crazy characters that he would talk to me. Like he was interviewing, like he was a David Susskind or something talking to my characters.

And I would have these weird conversations that the class would kind of be amused by and then eventually I had these five characters and he put it up in his theater I mean he didn't really put me up in his theater he didn't totally believe in me because he put me in the hallway and it had to be done before the main

stage show and they had a platform and 70 fold of seats that they would get rid of before the real show so this was at the american place theater american place theater and then the frank rich review came out and then boom the house was full of sam shepherd arthur miller olympia dukakis uh jfk jr it was incredible to come see you yeah well let me just go back so you first started doing it in his class. So how do you go to an acting class and say, I want to take up the whole class with my five characters?

I mean, why him and what got you there? That's the beauty of him. He was okay. I don't think any other teacher in America would have been okay. But we only did one character at a time be fair so one character per class was allowed oh so the next time i either bring it back or bring a different one and that that's how we built it in his classroom because it seems to me that between you and eric he was sort of instrumental in in in helping you in helping this form exist.

Yes, he was instrumental in it, absolutely, because he believed in it. He loved it. I guess he was really old school, and he knew everything about every play, Noel Coward, Eugene O'Neill, Sam Shepard, whatever play you threw at him, he knew about it and knew how to make it work.

He was a master. Yeah. And did he help you connect it all through a story? Or was that you? Well, that one was everybody was connected geographically, not so much story-wise. It was only two or three tiny little links. They were more separate. But they were just in the same neighborhood

and they heard about each other. Then when I got to Spicarama, it was a family. Right. And that's why that one became much more connected because they were all talking about a wedding that they were going to. It had a little bit of a Rashomon kind of technique. Yeah, it holds up. It was funny.

I mean, i watched it um last night i like to do that sometimes when i talk to dudes that have been around for a long time or women where it's just sort of like you know i wonder what they were like when they were kids and you're like oh there's video of it yeah you got footage yeah a lot of footage of them you can't watch that shit when was the last time you watched that stuff? Oh, yeah, no, no. Why would I watch it? What's the point of that?

You know why I do it? You know why? I know, but like, you know, I've done it, because in my mind, you know, sometimes as a performer, I think like I was, I don't even know who that guy was back then. Right, right, right, right. But then like you watch it, like I watched shit from 1989 on evening at the improv and i and i thought like i didn't have no voice i didn't have no point of

view i didn't know who i was and then i watched it and then you said and then you like i did yeah it was me what the fuck was i thinking why was i so hard on myself you know right right that that that is that is the i think the point of it is you go back and you look at yourself, damn, I was so brutal on myself. I used to pound myself and go, I wasn't as bad as I thought. Because even though you're winning awards or you're on Broadway or whatever, getting Emmy nominated, you still don't believe it. You know what I mean? You're still whoever you are to yourself. Even though you're holding an award, it doesn't really change how you look at yourself.

It doesn't really. It didn't change me. I mean, I was still the same guy. Even though I was nominated, I was like, I'm still me. I've still got my demons. I still, you know, I'm always like, it's extra hard. That demon's so fucking weird, though, that one. You know, it's like, have you ever sort of, do you know where it came from?

Well, obviously. Tough, tough, tough, tough childhood. My dad was incredibly hypercritical. So, yeah, I know where it comes from. I've been in therapy all my life. Really? I paid for that knowledge. Thousands of dollars.

But he was hypercritical but not physically abusive? Yeah, both. Oh, yeah. But he was hypercritical but not physically abusive? Yeah, both. Oh, yeah. Thank God for the physical abuse because it made me really hate authority and made me really disconnect from him. So that was a good thing.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I tried to do that too where, you know, my dad, you know, he was a raging monster. And you sit there and try to separate, like, I must have got a couple of good things from him. It's too much work. It's too much work to tease out the good. I'm sure there's some good, but fuck that.

The best you can get is like, he was charming with strangers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was great when he was drunk. Yeah. Right. But you got peace around that shit? Oh, yeah, yeah. I think so. I think so. I've been in therapy since i was 17 i was made to go to therapy uh in high school because i was that problem child

that wouldn't let teachers teach class so what either i was expelled huh making jokes yeah cracking jokes yeah practical joker you know locking teachers out of the room Yeah, cracking jokes, practical joker, locking teachers out of the room, stuffing the water fountains, keeping teachers in elevators, all kinds of fun stuff. Sounds like you had a whole list of things. Oh, yeah. No, no. I had a whole program. So they forced you into therapy.

Yeah, which was great. Obviously, I was incredibly resistant to it because I was 17, and what 17-year-old guy wants to be in therapy talking about their problems with a stranger? But eventually, it was like I started to realize the good of it, and how I started to flip my whole perspective of life into self-sabotaging and self-destructiveness started to like, oh, I'm out. I'm undoing myself. I didn't realize. What the fuck is that one?

I'm trying to figure out if I've got a handle on that. Why do we self-sabotage and self-destroy? Oh, because we assume we're shit because of whatever we were told, so we honor that narrative. Yeah, yeah. Because we're comfortable with of whatever we were told so we honor that narrative yeah yeah because you're comfortable with that narrative we know that narrative right it feels familiar we

think it's love right but it's not yeah right oh man and you continue and you continue it till you break it and you go oh i am it's not the world's not doing that to me i'm doing it and perpetuating it right right right it's all inside job yeah right right right but you never got you like but what was your primary uh means of self-sabotage you weren't a drug guy were you no no i was i was i wasn't a drug guy that was not that was not my thing it was just i guess just hostile and right and aggressive very very aggressive and right right yeah you were always making fun of people yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of. When I was funny, I wasn't.

And then when I missed, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how you measure it. That joke worked. That one, now you're an asshole. Yeah, that one, that lady's crying. Okay. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, people in my school still say,

I remember the time you made me cry. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm always apologizing. Yeah. Well, it's like that bully thing you know you got a parent that's a bully you're gonna have a little of it in you and you got to kill it yeah basically you do you got to snuff it out now when you started doing like well what was it like like in that I mean we're going back but I mean to have Sam Shepard

Arthur Miller I mean I mean because like in a lot of ways you were john malkovich did i finish raul julia no they all came on george clinton remember him yeah the same night it was only 70 seats come on it was the tiny i wasn't i wasn't i wasn't in the real stage i was in the hallway i had to be done by eight o'clock because it was a real show coming up but when the Frank Rich review came out all these people came to the show to the little show to the tiny little show

maybe they were going to go to the main show and they got there early I don't know it could have been that too Frank Rich is a smart guy I like reading that guy is he still around? oh yeah but he's much more political he did a great article

a couple years back on on roy cone that was unbelievable in uh new york magazine did roy cone come see you he probably did i don't think so i don't think i was his flavor did trump come no no no no i don't think he i don't think he likes uh art. I don't think he likes art. Yeah, I don't think he likes anything. He's home in the clubs. I used to see Trump in the clubs. He was at every premiere at every club. Yeah. Always scouting for talent, if you know what I mean.

Sure, yeah. Oh, you mean in the dance clubs and shit? Dance clubs, premieres, any party, any big party, he was always there. That's the funny thing about people who have been in New York their whole life. That clown has been around forever. Ever? I mean, you, he was a clown. I mean, that's the thing. You're always like been in New York their whole life. That clown has been around forever. Ever. We knew he was a clown. I mean, that's the thing.

You're always like, you know, there's that guy. He's always, and then he's like, you know, scouting, scouting. Yeah. I remember being on Conan O'Brien, and he was the first guest, and I was the second guest. And, you know, the segment producer, Frank Smiley. You know Frank? Oh, I know Frank. I know Frank forever.

Yeah, yeah. So Frank says, he comes into my dressing room. He's like, you want to meet Trump? And I'm like, you know what? I don't. Like, I knew then. I'm like, what am I going to say to that fucking guy? What do you got to say to him?

You got nothing in common. You knew he wasn't rich. He's a creep. He was just a creep, you know? Right, right. Basically, basically. That's why we all knew in New York City. That's why when you saw The Apprentice, you didn't rich it's a creep he was just a creep you know right right basically basically that's why we all knew in new york city that's why when you saw the apprentice you didn't believe it you knew it

was all made up it was a sitcom basically it's such a fucking nightmare so did you talk to any of those people though did you become like you know like do you do you have peers oh yeah well because i realized that there was only one exit out. So as soon as I was done, I would run outside to the backstage door and go to that front door and be at that door as they were walking out. They'd have to talk to me. And they had to say something nice because you can't be mean if you meet me by the front. Right. And Arthur Miller was so tall, man. Really? He was a tall, man. Really?

He was a big, lanky dude. Big, lanky Jew. And Sam Shepard's a tall, lanky. He was like, to be a playwright, you gotta be tall and lanky. I'm gonna have to work

extra hard. Did they say anything to you that resonated or it meant anything or did you, you know, end up being friends with them? They were generically positive.

Right, right. I just took it. Nothing real specific that they gave me. Who was your director meant anything or did you you know end up being friends they were generically positive so yeah that's cool i just took it but nothing real specific that they gave me who was your uh director on a couple you work with spike peter askin peter askin's your guy yeah we used to be really tight peter and i i mean i i guess you know life takes you to different paths i still got a lot of great love for peter and what about spike You work with him on his show and on the movie? Yeah, yeah. Spike's the best, man. I mean, I feel like when we did Summer of Sam,

I just felt like I really got to a whole new level in my acting because he just creates this safe space for you to do, like, whatever. Yeah. And I did whatever. And Mira and Adrian, I mean, the performances from everybody was... It was the first time I went to Cannes we went in Cannes Film Festival together yeah so exciting yeah and like over time like you I mean you work all the fucking time so what determines like I watched I watched some of Casualties of War no I didn't I watched that um that Brian De Palma documentary and you know and

oh yeah yeah but that you were like 12 when you did that. I mean, that was, that was basically, but that was like one of your first jobs, right? My, my very first film job. It was incredible. Here I am with Sean Penn and Michael J. Fox. Yeah. And we're in, we're in Thailand for six months and we had to go to bootcamp, real bootcamp, you know, like with poisonous snakes and with all the equipment, like the real equipment, the weight of it. Right. It was brutal.

And so like when you do acting, which you seem to do constantly and you've worked with a lot of big people over the years, I'm sure people that you're big fans of. How do you make your decisions? I mean, in terms of what you're going to do. Well, usually it was always like something challenging to me that didn't feel boring or corny. Yeah. And, you know, since Hollywood wasn't for me, I didn't have to play any of their games. So I just did what I wanted and I didn't care.

So it was like you know the clown and spawn something really insane and power that was fun for me right uh two on foo yeah with wesley and patrick which was a blast and then uh moulin rouge with baz lerman you know oh yeah yeah it's it's interesting that you run these two worlds where, you know, you're a huge star with the, on Broadway and stuff, but you'll do supporting roles. You'll do, you know, TV work. I mean, you're a working actor. Oh, I like to work and I like to work on my craft and I like to, you know, you gotta, you can't stay at the top of your game if you're not playing. I mean, like if you're a tennis player and you don't play for a year, your game is not going to be the same. Same thing with acting, I believe. Yeah. And do you still, do you train're a tennis player and you don't play for a year, your game is not going to be the same. Same thing with acting, I believe.

Yeah. And do you still do you train with a coach or a teacher still? Oh, yeah. I still I still I still train with a coach. I'm still doing readings. I'm doing readings on Zoom with Ethan Hawke and Matthew Broderick. I'm reading Waiting for Godot, you know, keeping our chops going. Oh, really?

And you do that publicly or you just you just hang out with these guys on zoom uh with ethan it's just the two of us waiting for good dough matthew we worked on it for a benefit those guys are new york guys so you guys friends yeah yeah big time well let's talk about how this like how how did this movie come together because this is the first time you directed a movie right i i directed a feature for uh hbo was my first tv thing and i did some commercials and this is my first independent film feature debut so now who who presented you with the story how'd you get hooked up with the writer carla berkowitz and scott rosenfeld you know offered me the the teacher role yeah and uh and then I went to Miami, met with the teacher and the guys, and it was so incredible, man.

Their love for each other was so beautiful. And yet they were always ribbing each other. They're always like. Because this takes place in the late 90s. So these guys are in their, what, 50s, some of them, right? Or 40s. 40s, 40s. I'd say early 40s, early to mid 40s.

And the teacher, obviously, he's up there um and and i just dug him man i did really dug their energy together it was so incredible how how he had found these guys and then cultivated them to to the success and i found that so fascinating then they offered me to direct it because of my passion for the project and i I was like, you know what? I think I can actually bring something to this movie. I really think I got, I got a clue. I like, I like chess. I had to crack the code of how do you make that exciting and visual? Cause it's not.

And how do you understand, how do you seem like you understand it in such a deep way? Like, I mean, that's an acting job. I mean, you may like chess, but did you understand it as deeply as this guy had to? Well, I'm very mathematical. So I was able to break it down and I was able to break down what the teacher, how the teacher taught those kids.

Right. And, and, and so because I'm mathematical, I was like, I grabbed all the best strategies and pick the best ones for film and then broke them down on camera. Right. Sometimes I, you know, sometimes everybody was like, oh, they're long. But I say I want I want to show how that happens, how that learning happens in a class. I want to show it. And so I did.

You know, by the end of the movie movie you really think as an audience that you understand the moves but you don't really no but i but i made you believe it because we had these lengthy classes where i'm showing you you know the first move the second move the third move and why the this the story behind it like that guy marcel martinez the real guy when we do a blind chess which is we usually put a blindfold or they turn your way and he can play up to 10 guys in the movie. He just played five, five or six of us and he doesn't see the board.

We just call out and he plays all of us at the same time. That's a real skill. That guy has, that's, that's his real skill. He was going to be international chess champion of the world. And he was disqualified on technicality. They said he wasn't naturalized in time,

some bullshit technicality, and he was so heartbroken and crushed by that that he never played chess again. Oh, my God. Really? Yes, true story, true story. That's sad. Wow. So I think in terms of what you're saying, as a guy, you know, where we're at in our life

and your sort of kind of passion and responsibility to somehow mentor young Latinos into believing they can find something better in life, this seems to be the natural arc from Latin history for morons into, into this movie, you know, where I have to assume that throughout your career, people have approached you and thanked you for showing them that they, there's another way to, to express yourself.

Absolutely. And I think, I think that's the payoff of life when it comes full circle, you know, I'm in the August of my years. We're not that old, are we? I think we're in the August. It's not fall yet, but when it's winter, it's over. Okay. All right.

Fine. I'll take August. Yeah. Yeah. The August of our years. You know, and then people come back and they say, you know, I write because of you. I do comedy because of what I saw you do that you, you could do it. And you know, that, that's the big payoff, man. That's what I wanted to do because when I was

younger, you know, you just didn't see yourself anywhere. And it was almost impossible to believe that you could do anything. But luckily I grew up in New York and I was like, wait a minute, I see movies. I see comic books. I see TV. I know we don't exist there, but wait a minute. In my real life, Latin people are doing everything. They're running things. They're running shit. They're closing deals. They're doctors. They're everywhere. But in the other media where we don't exist so i knew there was a big bullshit disconnect between the real world and and and and and media i mean it was just i knew that so that's what gave me the courage because i go this is real world that's not that's interesting because you know it's like

i just it just struck me just now that you, being somebody like who grew up like me, I grew up, you know, with good, you know, with open-minded parents, progressive people. But because of the media that we take in, which is the only media available at that time, you do get a specific perception of the world, which was exclusionary. And it's interesting to me how, you know, when people are like, how the fuck are all these people Trump supporters? Well well that's exactly the same thing they're doing they they're they're they're they're feeding their brains on on specific media right right that that enforces their perception of what the world is like but it's by choice but it's the same propaganda it's

the same it's a digital world where we all can live in our own bubble and never have it questioned but you know what you're saying though is like the the bubble used to be all of us and it was exclusionary and system systemically racist right right it was just i mean it's just like they didn't even have a concern that they had to include us anywhere i mean they had no reason to include us because nobody was calling them out. Right. But we all felt it. I mean, everybody felt it.

I mean, that's how Latin people can be demonized. I mean, that's my mission to stop that nonsense. When I found out that Latin kids are the least represented in picture books and with 30% of the public school population across the country. I mean, that was, that was heartbreaking to me, heartbreaking. And it's my mission to do something about it. It's crazy. Well, thank you though. Thanks for, for doing that.

And then thanks for making the, the, the touching movie and all the other work. It's nice. Thank you for having me on. Try to remember me at the Emmys next time, will you? Hey, look, if I ever get to the Emmys again again i'll make sure to say hello and i'll remember you'll be you'll be there you'll be all those award shows i know you will okay buddy take it easy man take care of yourself for me thank you okay that was john leguizamo and me talking. I feel like I just heard a sound go up.

Where was that coming? Am I losing my mind now? And now I'll do some things on my guitar. Why not? It's what I do here. Thank you. ¶¶ Boomer, monkey, Lafonda. Live. Fly on, feline angels. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

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