WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1160 - Barry Levinson

Episode Date: September 24, 2020

Barry Levinson finds himself waking up in disbelief to every outlandish and shocking item in the day's news. It's a different mode for a filmmaker who spent his career focused on the natural, quiet moments that make up everyday life. Marc and Barry talk about his beginnings at a Washington, DC television station, his early comedy writing that landed him at The Comedy Store, The Carrol Burnett Show, and with Mel Brooks, and his breakout movies like Diner, The Natural and Rain Man. They also contemplate whether American Democracy can survive, which is the subject of the new doc Barry produced, Stars and Strife. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

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We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast barry levinson is on the show today. This is a very big day. Barry Levinson, brilliant screenwriter and brilliant director. Oscar winning director of Rain Man, Diner,

The Natural, Bugsy, Good Morning Vietnam. He wrote for the Carol Burnett show. He co-created Homicide, Life on the Street and Oz. He and his wife at the time wrote the street and oz he and his wife at the time wrote uh and justice for all which i watched the other night great fucking movie he's the executive producer of the new documentary stars in strife and he's got a past at the comedy store and for those of you who listen to me know that's you know i gotta know about that how does he fall into the uh grand history of the comedy store barry levinson we've been meaning to talk for a while i think i don't know if he knew that but i know that we've been meaning to talk for a while hey so i had ali brosh on this show a long time ago because i was so taken with her book, Hyperbole and a Half.

And she's written a new book. It's been like seven years. Many of us were concerned about her well-being. But this is sort of coming off me kind of traversing the terrain of my mind and my heart and my spirit. And it doesn't generally go anyplace good it amplifies the struggle all right look it's we're all compromised right now and if you're alone you got to be careful up there in your head i mean come on it's dangerous. And if you got no one to kind of say like, yo, hey, hey, hey, you can't rely on television for the.

Oh, whoa. Where are you going? What are you up to? All television does or whatever you're distracting yourself does is like, all right, let's just think about this now. This is what's happening now. But occasionally you need a little of the. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Back up.

What? You need that but anyways brosh ali brosh is one of the great sort of explorers and navigators of the mind and how it relates to the outside world and she's got a new book out called solutions and other problems she works within animation but her writing is tremendous and funny and dark and intuitive and revealing and somehow calming. If you got a dark mind and a damaged soul and a bit of a dark heart, she'll soothe it, man. So, you know, if you want to check that out this is an unsolicited plug for this fucking book because i love this woman so much and i love her work solutions and

other problems by ali brosh it'll make you feel better maybe maybe what could make us feel better now like i mean are we this is a theme of my life you know like you know kind of pushing back on hucksters and grifters and which is one of the reasons that obviously this president is an outside of being insanely fascistic and dangerous and you know kind of homicidally negligent on a mass scale it's the grift man it's the con it's the hustle you know it's scale it's the grift man it's the con it's the hustle you know it's this one part of the backbone of america man it's a fucked up thing like i finally figured out a way that you know troll culture doesn't bother me it's like these fucking trump trolls it's like if this this is what you're proud of this is what you're you know this is who you are this is you know this is your

voice in the world trump 2020 fuck you libtard that's your voice in the world. Trump 2020, fuck you, libtard. That's your voice in the world. That's your creativity. That's how you speak your heart. It's just this weird, belligerent script of garbage that you dump out of your fucking brain, fucked head, you know, out into the fucking world. out into the fucking world you're sort of shameless unapologetic loyalty and complete submission and you know a surrender of your entire sense of self to a fucking belligerent grifter who offers you nothing but the feeling of hate it gives it definition that's who you are that's your lack of creativity that's what you do

with your american spirit where you have the freedom to find something for yourself to carve out your own life to figure out how you fit in and be part of the fucking cultural fabric you unimaginative turds so i watched being there the other night that was great it actually holds up it's a beautiful movie. Shirley MacLaine, Peter Sellers, unbelievable. Just throwing that out there. Had a dream. Had a dream.

I had a dream the other night. And I guess at some point, I have to start looking at these as visits from my ex who passed away May 16th. Lynn did. Lynn Shelton. Beautiful spirit. Beautiful person.

But occasionally she visits me in dreams. And I wake up and I'm always upset. But I have to frame it with a certain amount of gratitude that she's still hanging out. in dreams and I wake up and I'm always upset, but I, you know, I have to frame it with a certain amount of gratitude that, you know, she's still hanging out. She's still coming by, but the dream I had the other night was powerful in that it's almost,

it almost was a visit. I think they are visits when you lose somebody and they come around, depending on what happens if it's fairly clear and the dreams i've had about her have been clear they're usually just like she's here and i'm like oh my god i thought you were dead and she's not and i wake up and she is but this one i it was just she was just sitting on the edge of a desk like facing i feel like it was a classroom but i don't know if there was anyone there it was empty or what but she was just sitting on the edge of a desk, like facing, I feel like it was a classroom, but I don't know if there was anyone there or it was empty or what, but she was looking out and I

approached her and she just was like not paying attention to me. And I said, Hey, Hey, you remember that you love me, right? And then she turned to me, she's like, yes, of course. And I said, well, you were, you were, you were dead dead and i started to cry and i'm like you were dead for like days you were dead and i'm crying and she said to me oh that must have been very traumatic for you i'm sorry i just was crying i said i love you so much and i woke up and I just was crying. I said, I love you so much. And I woke up. And that is what she would have said.

Happy to see her. Look, you guys, this was a great conversation that I had with Barry Levinson. You know, he looks great. He's like 80. He's holding up. He's lucid. He looks 60.

And he's done some big movies, and he's been around a long time. And it was a real pleasure and an honor to talk to him. The documentary that he executively produced, Stars and Strife, is now available on most video-on-demand platforms. And it just started running this week on Stars. This is me talking to Barry Levin. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats, but iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zinsurance, mind your business. Where are you, Barry? I'm in LA now. Oh yeah, so you're holed up trying to breathe? It's terrible. I've been trying to clear my throat all morning. I mean, this is horrific.

Yeah, it's like it's devastating in the way where, like, it's just one layer of garbage over another. I know. There doesn't seem to be, you know, there just doesn't seem to be a bottom to it. No, it's every day there is another thing to get get depressed about right off the bat, right off the bat. Boom. The president of the United States is basically saying, yeah, well, maybe, you know, two to three million people, you know, should die. But then things are going to be good in the stock market. It'll just be great.

It's I can't. It really is daunting on a day-to-day basis. No. In terms of like, there's, and I watched your documentary, the one you produced, The Stars in Strife, and then I've watched, I just watched The Social Dilemma last night. Yeah. Have you watched that? I haven't seen that one yet, no. for people like my age and your age and these different generations that really, you know, to really sort of wrap your brain around the, uh, the weaponized,

uh, social networking platform, the algorithms and how they fuck people's brains. It's like, it's, it's, it's not hopeful. There's no hope there,

but I mean, it does help you understand really what's going on. Cause I think it's a generational thing. I think to protect yourself from these, to actually protect yourself from the mind fucking, it's a lot trickier than we think. And it has to do with the technologies that we've had to adapt to in our lifetime. And the kids don't give a shit. So it's sort of, I don't know whose job it is because these machines are just running

on their own volition. So it's sort of I don't know whose job it is because these machines are just running on their own volition. It's scary on so many levels because it's hard to when you read certain statistics and you go, for instance, there was someone sent me an email the other day that I think it's like high school students like like 40 or 50% never heard of the Holocaust, just as an example. And you go, how's that possible? I mean, just, you know, it's not like you have to understand all of the things, but how is that possible that you don't know that it's just a piece of information?

Right, right. And so if you say that you don't know that, then you're, you're saying, what don't you know about now? How much about now that you don't, it doesn't register in your brain. That's what frightens me. It's an elaborate shallowness that there there's this, you know, that people don't know things in depth or that, you know, it's sort of like, you know, like I could see a younger person saying like, wait, Hitler was the guy with the mustache. right? And that's the depth, right? You know?

Yeah. Yeah. He was, that's right. He had the, yeah. Yeah. That was it. Yeah. But, uh, and also being like a Jew, it's like, you know, that's, then there's that whole other dimension. It's like, when do we have to leave? Is anyone going is someone gonna alert us all and i i can't help but think about that shit you know i thought about it right away you know at the beginning of it with all that fascist theater of him signing things and bannon sitting there i'm like you know i know you know we're not going to be the I'm like, you know, I know, you know, we're not going to be the first to go, but we're on the list. Yeah, I know that is frightening. It is. It's overwhelming. And at the same time,

you know, it's, you know, there used to be like, you could say satire and it's hard to have satire when things are this crazy you know i mean uh it's literally i i think we're getting close to the marx brothers with fredonia i think that's where we're going in a sense where nothing makes any sense at all nothing makes any sense at all and and that is the nation's song and there's a proud it's a pride to it yeah things have become the farce of of reality has sort of uh hijacked any capacity for satire because satire gets absorbed very quickly it's and it's very it's very hard to do it effectively that where it will have any impact i mean if you think about your movie you know wag the dog which i think still obviously will hold up but uh but like everything's moving so much quicker how do you satirize you know what's going on because he's he's his own buffoon i mean that's

it's it's it's a very strange thing that the president is a clown you know to most of us but it's like you it's hard to to do anything funny about him because you don't want to trivialize the horror show that's happening uh yes and you can't to do anything funny about him because you don't want to trivialize the horror show that's happening. Yes. And you can't actually do something funny about him because he's already that crazy. So you can't. There's no way to go with a parody because that's him. Yeah.

We watch it on a day-to-day basis. Yeah. I find myself watching older comedies just to enjoy, you know, back in the day when there was timing and there was jokes. And I'm not really that guy. But lately, I'll go, I'll watch the old comics on Johnny on YouTube. I'll watch Rickles, Buddy Hackett, Dangerfield. I'll just, you know, just to hear that timing, you know, just to see that work. But that was a real craft. Oh, of course. It was a craft. And now we're in something, I don't even know how, it'll take maybe another 50 years if somebody could define this era that we're in.

And I find that so helpful when people say, you know, history will show. And I'm like, you're counting, that's optimistic that there's going to be history, number one. And number two, whoever's writing it is going to be of a sound mind. Yeah. No, look, I thought that the comment in David's piece in Stars and Stripes is about that a democracy, the longest a democracy has lasted is 250 years, and we're now up to 250 years. I mean, it's a frightening thought that that's as long as a democracy has ever lasted. And we're right up

there at that point. And we are facing this kind of collision of madness that we can't even get out of our own way. And it's not just Trump alone. And I think that's where the documentary is so good because it's not, it's not chasing just him. It's just that we are so dysfunctional in general that we cannot actually work as a democracy at this point in time. Right. Yeah.

And then, and then it's just amazing how, like, uh, how, how many sort of craven fucking small time grifters have are having their day in one place. Right. And the idea of capitalism, you know, when I think that the focus seems to be in the dock that, you know, that that there is a way for capitalism to function for everyone if it's done responsibly. But my problem with a lot of that free market thinking is, for some reason,

no one factors in the greed element and the complete moral bankruptcy of people who want money and power. But, you know, I don't know, maybe it'll level off. You would hope, but I don't know maybe it'll level off you would hope but i don't know uh you know because the bottom line is sort of dom everything is about the bottom line yeah you know and and i don't know how that changes i mean uh in terms of look there is no crazier decision made by say uh with citizens united as a concept you say hey why don't we just have this? And then people can spend as much money as they want to donate to a candidate, you know, just as much as you want. So if you want to donate $100 million for a candidate, yeah, that's fine.

And you go, no, no, no. Doesn't that sort of mess with the concept of the people? Otherwise, the $100 million is, very few people can donate that. And therefore, they're going to get something special. They're going to get something that you're not going to get because they're spending more money than you. They own the guy. And they own the guy. And somehow that became like, oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

And this comes from the Supreme Court. That's how you came up with something that idiotic. I just, it boggles my mind. I'm not some kind of, you know, somebody that understands all of this kind of the legalities of things or whatever, but on the basic level, it makes no sense that you can spend as much money as you want. Well, I think everybody's in their own bubble in terms of their decision-making, including the Supreme Court. But let's get back to simpler times, Barry. Oh, yes. When I was a doorman at the comedy store, I was, I, I got, I was, I was on a lot of drugs at the time, but it was in the late eighties.

And, uh, you know, I used to just fester and look at all the names on the wall. And I just, I always saw your name on the wall and I'm like, what did he do here? Was he here? Cause I got very in, I was in deep at the comedy store. I, I, I believed in it. I believed in the idea of it. I thought that it was a magical place in a very dark way. And I really kind of focused on all the names on the walls wondering, you know, how do they fit in? So how do you fit in over there? Well, here's the short version of that.

When I was doing writing for, say, the Carol Burnett show and other shows, I used to have a partner, Rudy DeLuca. And Rudy DeLuca had written for Sammy Shore. He'd write jokes for him. and uh one day sammy shore came to rudy and said frank seneson has the old zeros which had been closed at that point said there's a small room and he said he'll turn it over to me this was sammy shore talking and uh i have a little nightclub and sammy said uh rudy said to sammy uh but nightclubs are dead you know sammy nightclubs are dead. You know, Sammy, nightclubs are dead. It's over or whatever. He said, yeah, but he'll give me the place and the little venue and I can blah, blah, blah, whatever.

And Rudy said, well, why don't you do it like the improv in New York? Just have that kind of place. And that became the comedy store. Oh, so you were brought in before Mitzi even. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sammy was married to mitzi right and but she wasn't involved initially yeah and so that was the beginning of the comedy store and it used to be at the very beginning you can just show up and you know nobody's on stage and then you can go on stage and this person or sometimes and then what happened is like richard pryor would wander in and he would get up he would do something and and some of the

more named uh you know guys and then some people off the street literally just went up etc and then it got more formulized as it went along and then what happened is in the divorce between Sammy and Missy uh Sammy gave it up because he wasn't really, he didn't have that managerial quality that Missy had. And she was much better at structuring it and everything else. And then she ultimately took over and really ran it. But were you doing standup? I started when, it sounds crazy. I started, I was in an acting group, which I didn't want to be an actor, but I was there anyhow. I was literally there just hanging around and just absorbing it. Which one?

It was a guy named Jack Donner, and it was on the Oxford Street, right off of Santa Monica and Western. There was a little theater upstairs. And so I did that. I didn't really want to, um, I came out to LA. I didn't know what to do with myself. I ended up at the beach. You were, you were from Baltimore from Baltimore, but you, but like, well, let's go back there for a minute. So, but you knew you wanted to be in show business. Had you done some work? What was the situation in Baltimore other than what we know from Avalon and Tin Men? No, I didn't want to be in. I had no idea about show business.

I didn't even have a clue. I had no, never even thought about the idea of writing or directing or anything. How old were you when you came out here? I was around 22. So what were you when you came out here? I was around 22. So what were you doing in Baltimore before? I was in Washington and I was working at a television station. Well, that's show business. Well, if you think about it now.

But here's what happened. I was at this, I was at American University and I only took courses that would interest me. And there was one about, there was a course on television. I figured, well, and here's my motivation. That sounds easy. You know, that won't be a hard thing. Not a lot of studying. It's television.

And so, I ended up doing that and there was a professor who ran this class. And I did this little show thing as an exercise. And he took a liking to me and he got me a job at WTOP, which is Channel 9 in Washington, D.C. in a training program. You get $50 a week and you do everything. You run the teleprompter. You make slides for the news show i work the hand puppets on the ranger house show and i saw robert dr fox and i did all those things and that's what i started doing and i started one of her jobs is to roll the commercial breaks yeah into the late show in the late late show you remember they used to have so you were the sucker that had you were the only one in the studio yeah i'm there do it yeah see you there until like 2 30 in the morning you know and the screw-ups that went on etc in that particular period of time and uh but i'm gonna

sidetrack but here's like a thing that was amazing to me is that i always wonder about the audience out there because you never, you don't see an audience, you just do it. And you go, is anybody actually watching? Right. And I, I only say this because one time, one night they, the late show and, uh, and it was called the, the, it was a Glenn Ford and the man from the Alamo. It started and the thing is going on. And the first commercial break that comes up it would say like a guy goes out the door uh door slams go to the commercial break right yeah and it was that and all of a sudden the leader came up so something is out of whack right so instead of saying why is this the cue wrong now at five minutes 12, we go back to the movie.

Yeah. And it goes, the end. Now it started at 1130. At five minutes to 12, it says, the end. Yeah. And so we realized we got the last reel up first rather than the first reel. Right. You go to the announce booth, and the announcer says,

and now for the beginning of the man from the Alamo. And then the movie starts, right? Not one phone call to say, what the hell is going on here? You show the end of the movie first, and then the beginning. Nobody called. No one. And you go, are people actually watching is there an audience or do or do they just not care it doesn't make any difference if it's out of the story is at that

hour maybe maybe maybe it's just make like for me that that resonates because i used to watch i used to like like i still like coming upon things that are already on like because now you can start anything anytime there's no channels but i used to like turning on the tv and and being in the middle of something because it for some reason it made me feel like well there's got to be someone else alive who's showing this movie so maybe maybe that comforted people like you know the one other guy that's up fucked up you know what i mean well you know When you say that, Mark, when we were kids and we went to the movie theaters, we didn't know when the show began. We'd be eight years old.

You didn't go to the movies. Sure. Saturday. And you just walked in and you sat down. So you never saw a movie from the beginning. And then there'd be cartoons and things. And then you'd come back to the movie. And then there'd be you know cartoons and things and then they'd come back to the movie and then there would be that point where we would turn to one another

is this where we came in is this is this where we came in and they oh yeah yeah but wait for let's see the fight scene again you know and then you would leave and so we never saw things from beginning to end as kids yeah because we never knew when a show began you know we went to the movie theater it wasn't like oh at nine you know your parents just wanted to know where you were for a couple hours yeah they'll be in there and we could go do some stuff so so you had some experience at least with hand puppets and and uh hand puppets and all that and then and working on the news shows and watching movies anyways you got to sit there and watch movies i saw two movies a night for almost a year and and that in a sense without thinking about ever getting into the business i just started watching films i had never heard of

like i saw citizen kane i never heard of citizen kane yeah and so i'd see some of these movies and i'd i'd see preston sturges films and else, things I had never heard about, no one talked about. And that began to get into my head without me consciously thinking about it. So when I came out to L.A., I ended up down at the beach in Hermosa Beach, Santa Rosa Beach down there. And I started to hang around with this guy named george and george and i would hang around at one point he would you know he didn't have money i didn't have any money and a lot of people we were just you know you just get by what year is this like 1970 this would be no this was about 1968 wow so it was crazy here yeah it was totally nuts i mean

it was like the it was like a total crazy period and great fun just like hippies and drugs and weed and you know people all everything was going on and the music was changing and it was all things were going on and everything was sort of very loose like uh it for instance like you know now you hear about laurel canyon and right uh but we would literally go over there and come up into the area and we would go up and you just walk along the streets you hear some music and you wander in you sit around and people are you know you know smoking joints whatever dancing carrying on or whatever and there would be those people like so from you know Crosby Stills Nash Young and you

know all of those people and you didn't even know who everybody was at that point you know it was just like just people walking through the canyon huh yeah wandering around yeah but backing up for a second at the beach one day, George comes up to me and he says down in Hermosa Beach, he said, look, my car broke down and you have to go up into Hollywood. And can I borrow your car or you want to drive me? And I said, OK, I hadn't been up to Hollywood yet. So, OK, so I drive him up there. We pull up to this building. And he says, come on in. I said, well, what are you going to do? He said, well, I want to sign up for this. I want to check out this acting group. Yeah.

Oh, no, no, no, please. George, I'm going to stay in the car here. I'm not going to. No, I'm not doing that. Yeah. He said, come in. I'll feel obligated to come in. So I went in.

And I'm watching it. It was interesting. You know, there's, they're doing exercises and things, a little scene study things that I was rather sort of fascinated by it. George signs up, writing back down. He says, why don't you join? You know, why don't you become part of the class? You know, then we can just, you know, we can share rides. I'll drive. Sometimes you drive because it's like an hour to get back there. Yeah. I said, George, I don't want to do that. He said, that'll be a kick.

There's some good looking girls. Wow. It'll be fun. Talks me into it. So now we go up and back. George starts getting bored. Doesn't care for the class anymore. He doesn't want to go.

Okay. So now I'm going up and back by myself. And I'm saying, George, for God's sakes. I mean, now I'm going, you're not involved in this. I said, I think I'm going to move up into the Hollywood area because it's too far to keep going back and forth. So, you know, I packed up and I moved out. Now, here's the thing. I try to explain to people, you know, nowadays. Back then when you you moved you lost contact with a person because there wasn't a phone you know we didn't have phones you know that we could or if we moved you know we didn't have that so the telephone we were always using telephone booths to call one another because we

you know we were living on the cheap and so i get involved in the acting class i get more involved things i'm doing stuff and spending all the time there. And there's a guy named Craig T. Nelson, and he's in the class. And we're hanging out. And we started doing some little improv things together. And we start getting some laughs in the class. And I said to Craig, maybe we can put some material together and we'll play some clubs just to make some money.

Because I had no money then. And he was working in a bank. And so we started to play some clubs, right? With the routine as a team? Yeah, we're like a comedy team. But we didn't do jokes with one another because neither one of us knew how to do jokes. But we would literally do little scenes of things. And and, uh, you know, three, four minute pieces. And we started playing the clubs in LA. I didn't want to, I didn't want to perform, uh, at all. Craig didn't want to do

comedy. He wanted to be a, you know, a legitimate actor. And so, but we were doing all that. And so at some point, we worked a few television shows together, and then eventually he wanted to focus on acting. And I continued to write and did comedy. And as I say, with Rudy DeLuca, we did comedy. I did Carol Burnett show and some other things. Then we went to work for Mel Brooks and did all that. And, um, uh, and so I just slowly began to move along until I finally ended up writing. So you figured out how to write jokes clearly.

No, I didn't really write them. I can only, I can only do it if it was really connected to character. Right. I mean, some people can just go bang. I just like, I can only do it as it was really connected to character right i mean some people can just go bang they just like right bits i can only do it as character within a in a in a in a situation yeah i guess you

probably learned how to hone that with uh because carol burnett was like that i mean those shows were like that those variety shows those sketches were and some of those shows like carol burnett specifically had you know recurring characters i mean every week in the sketch if something caught on then we we'd play it out we used to do a lot of um uh the sketches and and they were great because they really worked it they didn't read off of cue cards they they learned the lines and they really performed it you know how funny was Tim Conway, buddy? Conway was hysterical.

Conway, we wrote a lot of his old man sketches. When he was an old man, he would go real slow. And so we wrote a lot of those physical pieces for him. And he would elaborate. And you could see him sometimes. And if you went by the set, you'd see him wandering around. And he would be testing the door to see how strong the door is. Because he was going to throw a little piece in here, a piece of physical comedy.

He was a great physical comedian. Really, one of the greats. So when you wrote with Mel Brooks, now I would assume that writing High Anxiety, which other one did you do with him? Silent Movie and High Anxiety. But was that a writer's room? I mean, is that how that worked? There were four of us. There'd be Mel, Rudy DeLuca, Ron Clark, and myself. And we would, you know, work it from there and you said four of you and we would just continue to throw ideas around and certain things would stick and mel was like really great i mean he was so first of all he's maybe the funniest person i think i've ever met i mean he'll get

into a rant about something and he's just amazing. And he was very open. And this is the key thing that happened in a sense of my life, is that we were on the set when he was shooting and he would be by the monitor and he had us there and we would watch. And so now you're seeing him do it. And so sometimes you go over and you say, Mel, maybe you should do a little whatever it may be. And that was the beginning, I think, of me beginning to think beyond just writing. Right. And then I began to sort of like, what happens if the camera's here instead of there?

What happens if you did that? What happens if this is a little faster? What happens if you do? And that was, I think, the the beginning that gestation of things are beginning to bubble up in my head and i would imagine too like the one thing that i learned about you know directing uh just from watching it in the limited experience i have is that you know if you've got a good dp who who you know he's got a good head on his shoulders you know it gives you a lot of creative freedom right like you know, you know, you can just, whatever you conceptualize, you can say, you know, there's a whole crew of people that will

manifest it for you. They can. Yeah. If they're all in sync. Right. Because what happens is sometimes you'll have a cameraman who wants to put the camera here. Yeah. And you know that in a sense it's, it's less dramatic or it, you know, whatever the decisions are. So sometimes you have to really connect with a camera person so that you're really in sync about how to handle it and the rhythms of all of it. Because especially if you're doing a comedy, as you would know, if you tamper with the rhythm of something,

it can be it can be uh not funny at all and then all of a sudden you do it that and all of a sudden boom it just pops and so the you have to protect the rhythm when you have a couple people doing something you have to be able to support that rhythm well i mean that must have been good training to do the two mel brooks movies or the three that you did he was was great. And he, in fact, was the one sometimes at lunch because we we go to lunch every day. And I would talk about, you know, some of the guys I knew in Baltimore. And Mel was the one who actually said to me, well, why don't you write about those guys? And in fact, he even said, you know, Fellini's film Ibbett Aloni

and he mentioned that as an example and then eventually I ended up doing Diner but it was his encouragement because I had all his ideas but I hadn't thought of it in film terms

and so he was very instrumental. And you he was very instrumental. And you got to work with Harvey Korman again. But it was great. I mean, it was terrific. Just to backtrack, just to give you about how crazy things are in terms of life. I said that George was the one that got me to go to the acting class and the acting class led to you know meeting uh uh Craig and then doing you know working clubs and that led to this and one thing at the writing etc etc and so I um uh someone said to me after I'd done a bunch of things and they said well and I said you know George was very responsible for me in my career because he was the one who said, hey, why don't we go up to Hollywood?

And they said, so what happened to George? I said, I never saw him again from 1968. And he said, well, what happened to him? And I said, I don't know. I don't know what happened to him, but he was instrumental in that first step. Now I go to a movie in 2000 with my wife, go to see the movie Blow, right? Johnny Depp in the film. And it starts at 1968, Santa Monica, the beach, and I hear George, you know, George. And then I hear the name George Young, I go,

and then I hear the name George Young. I go, George Young, you know? And then if you watch the film, this character becomes the largest cocaine dealer in North America. And I turned to my wife, I said, that's George. That's George. She says, what are you talking about? The George I've always mentioned to you

that I got started, George. So I ended up getting into this. George ends up becoming the largest cocaine dealer in north america ultimately went to prison etc that's what the movie's all about right but now here here's what's crazy yeah i he got out of prison and i called him yeah and uh talked to him and he said i gotta tell you one thing it's crazy, you know, you always used to say to me, you know, when I was, you know, smoking, you know, dope and stuff and selling little baggies, et cetera. He said, you know, George, you got to stop with that shit. You're going to get in trouble one day. And he said, get those fucking carry on about that. You know,

he said, so anyway, finally, I get arrested. I'm being taken into the police station. I'm in handcuffs. I'm going up the steps. I go into the police station I'm in handcuffs I'm going up the steps I go into the police station the academy awards is on and I'm looking up and it says and then best director for Ray Baff Barry Levinson and he said and it flashed in my head George you gotta stop with that dope and stuff

you're gonna get in trouble so is he out still? he's out still yes that's not like crazy in terms of like stories how things go i mean you know hey you never know you have different career paths barry that's all you know it sounds like he did all right for himself for a while for a while yeah it's a risky game that's hilarious that that's how you've reconnected with them. It is sort of interesting that, you know, mentioning the difference in pace before everything was so technologized, you know, like that with phones and with everything else that there was long swaths of time where you just were out of contact with people no no because you don't have a cell phone you just can't just pull it up so unless somebody would have like a you know post office box that they would have and they would go there periodically because everybody was moving around so your address was meaningless

right your phone your every time you move the phone would you know you're canceling it yeah and so it was very hard to stay connected. Sure, sure. Except by wandering around and running into one another. Yeah, and meeting with people. So Mel inspired you to kind of flesh out that story. But clearly you like to write. It's like for me, when I was reading over some of the stuff about you, I mean, the fact that in the middle of everything else, at some point you wrote a novel too. I'm like, Jesusesus christ this guy really must love it because i can't stand it like it's to me

it's such a fucking chore even my own show i didn't like writing so maybe it's just the nature of a comedian i don't know and i've written books but it, but it's like, it's never fun. It's never fun. But, uh, I don't, to be honest with you, uh, because I was such a bad student in school. Yeah. I mean, so I, I would literally fail almost, you know, all the time because I couldn't pay attention in the class. I always thought everything was going in slow motion, So I would fail. So I never thought of myself as being able to really do anything on an academic level at all. And writing never occurred to me either. Because whenever I had to write a paper, I used to get, you know, failing grades all the time. So I never knew that I could write. And I thought, well, isn't this any good? You know, like, as an example, and this is like, I think about the educational system that I sometimes really worry about.

I had to write a book report, and I did, you know, Catcher in the Rye. Okay. So I wrote the book report, as if I were Holden Caulfield. Yeah. And I said, I really don't like to write book reports. I guess if I have to write a book report, I will. But, you know, it's not something that I really am interested in. And that's how I did the book report. And, of course, I got a failing grade from it.

Because I couldn't conform to the book report way of doing things. And that's the only way I knew how to work is like, whatever occurs to me, to tell the story, whether it's a book report or whatever. And it wasn't until much later that I began to say, oh, wait a minute, you can tell a story in another way. And as a short example, and I want to go on about that, when I did Diner and the studio saw it and it said, you know, you have a lot to learn about editing. And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, you know, it says like, you know, he's going to eat the sandwich. You're not going to eat the sandwich.

You know, they're just talking about a sandwich. The best scene in the movie. He says, cut and just get to the story. And I said, that is the story. And what I meant in a sense is I am telling a story, but I don't want the story to just be the main up front on it. We will follow the story through this kind of seemingly meaningless conversations. But that's what we do. We don't express ourselves in such an articulate fashion.

It's always sideways. themselves in such an articulate fashion. It's always sideways. If you happen to be in love with somebody and you don't know how to talk to them about it, you don't just come right out and say it. You're going left and right and whatever. You're never direct about it. And that's human behavior. But you can tell the story through that. And that's what I thought Diner was. So there is a story, multiple stories, but I try to hide it with these conversations. But it tells you how close they are to one another. Right. Well, that's the interesting thing about that. I guess that the network executive was thinking in terms of one through line, which in that movie, it's sort of an umbrella.

You know, the sort of the pending marriage just becomes this umbrella for several different stories about characters yeah and but they're all they all have their multiple stories to it but it's hidden in that way right yeah and i mean it's sort of like american graffiti in that way and it kind of right like there's yeah uh i never thought about it until you were just talking about it. That what is the story of that other than an evening before some kid goes to college? Yes. No. And that and that's important, you know, as opposed to somebody that's important. That's why, you know, people connecting. You make that you make that connection. You know what's so fascinating about influences that you don't understand?

You don't always understand what influences you in your life. And it wasn't until much later in life that I realized that Paddy Chayefsky and Marty was probably the most influential moment when I was a kid and I was watching Marty on television. What do you want to do, Marty? What do you want to do, Marty? I don't know, Angie. What do you want to do? Right. I thought that was literally the greatest thing I'd ever heard in my life. And I was a little kid and I'd always walk around, you know, in the house with my mother and father said, what do you want to do tonight marty i don't know what do you want to do angie you know what are you talking about and i would do it all the time because i found it so fascinating to me right now i didn't make any sense out of it at the time but it was human it was human and that's what diner ultimately was

it was that and that was what i extracted from chayefsky's work it felt like real life to you yeah like this is how people talk that's that's that's life and that so there are these little influences that we don't always we're never smart enough to go oh you know what i'm really influenced by you know some things just get in your head and years later you may make sense out of it. And, and I think that's what makes it exciting in terms of what, what I'm saying, what we're able to do and, and writing and directing. Well, it's interesting because it seems like Chayefsky is like, it seems like there is a, that you did,

you were kind of similar in a way with some of the movies, weren't you? A little bit, if I were to think about it. I mean, Network? I mean, if you really think about Network and some of the movies, the satires you did around television, do you know? Yeah. Wag the Dog, Jimmy Hollywood, Man of the Year. I mean, thematically, it's similar. It's in the ballpark, right? He was truly, I mean, I would think of him as a truly,

truly brilliant writer. And I would only be in the margins of that. But I do believe, yes, it's like, look, if you're taking about the breakup of an American family, in a sense, in Avalon, was like, you cut the turkey without me, you know, we leave, right? And that, it wasn't just the turkey, it was the whole shift that was taking place. It was the change of the breakup of the family structure, all these things, and it comes out that way, rather than this articulate version of, know two brothers it's you know that that in a sense was the breaking point and as crazy as it is it it has its value rather than being so articulate and expressing ourselves right yeah right right as opposed to sort of the story points are sublimated in the characters, whereas you're not just sort of like, here's your act break. This is the point of this. It kind of sneaks up on you.

You know, that movie's really about a type of personality that kind of was prominent in the 80s, that type of ambition and selfishness and the drive of the Tom Cruise's character that disabled his ability to be empathetic to the struggles of his brother who he didn't know. And that, you know, he really is able to come back around and find his heart and his purpose, you know, through this brother and find out what's important in life, you know, relative to sort of, you know, it really becomes almost about like, you know, aspiring to be a Gordon Gekko type of character or really engaging in, you know, empathy and family and caring and understanding humanity. Yeah.

Yeah. That's all in there. And then you just have to put that all aside and you just, you're just involved with the story, you know, and that, but that's, that's a hundred percent. That's the case. Yeah. And I mean, I just like, I don't know how conscious you are of that in terms of, you know, creating these things that do, you know, represent a time or, or like, you know, even diner was a generational thing. Exactly. I mean, that's why there's a line that Kevin Bacon has very early on in terms of things that are beyond what they have been around is, uh, Kevin Bacon sees the girl on the horse and said, uh, you ever think there's something going on

that we don't know about, you know what I mean? It's like a girl and a horse and a whatever, and it's beautiful or whatever. There's something else out there. Yeah, and his character is slightly more nihilistic than the other ones for whatever reason. Yeah. I just remember all that because I remember seeing that and becoming fascinated with Riser because it was at that time after I you introduced me to Reiser. And I went to the comic strip in New York and I wanted to do comedy.

And I remember because I knew Reiser from Diner and I saw him at the comic strip that night, I approached him to ask him how to start doing comedy. And really, yeah, you know, he was just sitting there at the strip, and I think I was, like, I must have been in college. I don't remember when it was. But I just, I asked him if I could sit with him for a minute and talk to him. He said, all right. And I said, well, how do you do comedy?

How do you start doing comedy as a living? And he literally just said, I don't know. You just got to do it. And I'm like, all right. That was it. That was the big moment. That is it. That's all I got out of Paul, you know, at that moment.

But it seems to me that over the course of your career that, you know, there are these human stories. And I guess they're all human to a degree. But you certainly, you know, you didn't, you know, tether yourself to any one form. You've done every kind of fucking movie. I mean, I watched a natural a lot. I would say out of all your movies, I watched that one the most.

I don't know why, but, but I, I tend to, I'll, I'll watch it on purpose more than, than other ones because it's just the look of it and the feel of it and the, the heroic tale.

And there's just something like the, the reason I will go back to it is just the, the complete insanity of that Barbara Hershey character. Like if you, if you do anything that's recognized, you know, if your fame, if you,

in any way there, there, that woman's around. And it's just, it's just a terrifying thing, man. And I don't know what it is. You know, it's amazing. In some ways it's like, you know, luck as well. In some ways, it's like luck as well. The idea that Redford ultimately had, because we had met and we were talking about baseball,

and he said, you know, I got this script around here somewhere, and he pulls it out, and it was a natural. He says, take a look at this. See what you think. And I read it, and I called him. I said, gee, I think this is great. I didn't really know him well. I just met him. And he said, okay, good. And we ended up doing that film. Now, when I think back on it, here's this actor, this giant actor who also won an Academy Award as best director. And he ends up saying, yeah, yeah, you should direct this film. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's such a leap of faith on his behalf.

I guess so. Yeah, you're pretty early on. You've only done a couple movies that you directed. One movie. That was it. That was it. Diner. And then there's The Natural.

Yeah. But the choice is in that because like you know if i read it like um it's one of those things where you know like when i was in college studying film i never really understood semiotics or or or the language of you know that that that's that's a mythological story that like as a film to study you know it's almost a a homeric story right yeah sure and i guess it's that way in the book but it's interesting to me to know that the book ends with him striking out and yeah and like you know like that and and you second movie in you're given this script and and the you know bernard malamud the the hero strikes out there's no fucking way you could do that right no no yeah like i mean did did that

ever come up it uh you know one day when we were uh we were uh cutting the film yeah and uh you know he swings and misses you know and that and I said to the editor why don't we like send this to the the studio just your it's right three you're out but we just put that in there and it goes to black and just send it to the studio can you imagine everybody have a heart attack you know and you couldn't do it but you know there were all these changes along the way. The one thing that, and I wish I would have known this at the time, and I only heard about it later on, is that Malamud, who wrote this very American, you know, piece,

but it didn't sell well in its time. It wasn't a giant bestseller. And he went to, supposedly, as I remember, it was a long time ago now, with his daughter. And they went to see The Natural. And he came out and she says, Dad, what do you think? And he said, finally, I'm an American writer. Really? And I thought, my God, I wish I would have, I would have known that, you know, at the

time. I mean, so, you know, he was able to enjoy it, even though we have to make these kinds of changes within it. But initially the critics never could get over that. Well, that he didn't just strike out, you know, cause it was like, well, in the book he he strikes out. So they wrote you for that. They were not happy about that. The film was attacked because he hit a home run and he didn't strike out. Apparently, they just can't quite understand the Jews' legacy in Hollywood. We are here to create America and make it happy. Yes.

You guys wouldn't accept us on any level until we made these dreams for you see the guy wins in the end yes and it made bernard feel american finally he realized like maybe i don't i don't have to be depressed you know maybe maybe there's hope that's that's too much man so you stayed pretty close with robin the whole time right yes yes yeah it was it was such a shock you know in turn it was such a shock and and it's one of those things when you suddenly you know uh you gotta get a phone call and say you know you know you know, Robin, you know, committed suicide. I mean, it was like devastating. It was it's hard to to even talk about it because it's somehow you couldn't even envision anything like that.

You know, yeah, he was such a great character, you know, and and and in some ways, you know, he had such a great character, you know, and, and, and in some ways, you know, he, he had such a great empathy for people as well. You know what I mean? I mean, he was, he was really, had that a childlike fascination, you know, for, for a number of things and people and everything else. And so when I, when I got that phone call, I was like, you don't know. You can't even describe it. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, because I think it seems that Good Morning Vietnam really was the beginning in a way of him in terms of feature films, that that was the thing that it was perfect for him. Yeah. And you kind of you knew that you you knew it and we worked on it uh to get that uh because i thought that was the key thing to it you know even though the radio stuff is only 12 minutes of the movie you know it's something like that it was it was it was an exciting balance because you know he had done i think a few movies before that where he tried to just be a serious actor.

But to incorporate that side of him effectively in a way that, you know, wasn't just eating scenery, but had a purpose. And then to sort of counterbalance it with his empathy was, you know, that was the trick, right? Yeah. And you had to balance the empathy of it because it's very easy in a sense where it's too much because he does feel that much. So sometimes on screen, you have to say, look, we got to back up a little bit, you know what I mean? Otherwise it's too much because he had such a heart to him that literally- Oh, you don't want to get sappy. You don't want it to get sappy and you had to like restrain that a little bit to pull that in to get to get that you know so you get real

hands-on sometimes with the actors in terms of well yeah when you do i mean i i like the you know i was sort of you can say it's like a cold uh a controlled freedom is that i want an actor to feel very free within it to try any particular thing. But at the same time, you know, there, there, there's a limitation to it, but you don't want to, you don't want to push the limitation because that would restrict what we might do, you know, because, you know, there's these moments, you know, it goes this way or that way. And, and it was very, there was a lot of fun to take certain scenes and then just see what would happen if we did this.

Right. And and for instance, there's a scene in the film. And I said to him one day, I said, you know, I have to find a scene for you where you see your how how much you mean to the troops, because otherwise it's an abstract. You're in a radio booth and you're doing this comedy, but you don't hear laughs. And so therefore you don't know cause and effect really. You know that they like you, but you don't hear it. You don't hear it. You're never there.

And so he said, well, what are we able to do? I said, why don't, and so I said well what are we able to do i said why don't and so i said uh why don't we just have like there's a traffic jam and all the trucks are backed up and then you're stuck and they and somehow they know it's you and then you start and then you end up doing it to the you know you start playing around with the soldiers and we and now you got the cause and effect and you see how important you are to these soldiers oh yeah i'm sure robin really thought that idea i bet huh here you get to perform for people and that's how that sort of came about. And it was tough for him in this regard because a bunch of these, you know,

because we're over there in Thailand and I end up throwing this thing and now we got to get like soldiers, right? Right. And so we end up with just getting, you know, a bunch of people and then some of them are like, you know, from other countries, they don't even understand English. Right. They don't know what the hell he's saying. And he had to find a way to work with that.

Oh, that must have been great for him. I don't know, because, you know, he's got to adapt to it. You know, he's so smart. He'd find ways to, you know, just by sounds and things that he could do. Physicalizing, yeah. And they'll pull it'll pull people in. He was a sweet guy. I mean, I guess it's terribly sad.

And when you think about it, he's definitely missed. And I just think what you're talking about is empathy and stuff. He was a very, really, when you talk to him or when you know him for a little bit, he's a very quiet, shy guy. You know? He was just definitely absorbing things and you know engaged but you know by nature not uh you know he had to turn that shit on you know yep yep absolutely yeah um so the other thing i was realizing about i mean obviously with avalon you

you you kind of um depicted where you come from but i was thinking about bugsy like because i was thinking about that movie and i just had this realization this morning that like with because i remember knowing enough about the mob to know that warren baity was much older than bugsy ever made it to right yeah uh but by i don't know, 10, 12 years. Yeah, but then I started to realize, like, with these stories, what fucking difference does it make? Right.

Yeah, right. Gee, it wasn't Bugsy. He wasn't the 30. He was only 39 at the time. But, you know, the idea of historical accuracy is relative in some cases, but in the cases of these mythic stories about, you know, criminals or cowboys or whatever, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? It's really about the story, right? Yes. It's the character that's being portrayed

as opposed to the authenticity of like age or other certain things. I mean, because, you know, of like age or other certain things. Because, you know, look, sometimes you can take, sometimes you can stray too far and therefore it ultimately undermines the character because you've so altered it that it doesn't quite work or make sense. But in terms of age,

at times it doesn't matter unless the age is really an issue in the film. You know what I mean? If the guy was 25 and died, then he did that, and you got a guy who's 50, it doesn't work. So I think whenever you're doing a film, you always have to sort of say, how important is this to the story we're telling? Yeah.

And how much will it affect how we process it? Yeah. And I didn't realize until like maybe today that, you know, you kind of invented or was, you know, at the beginning of this prestige TV idea, the idea,

you know, that you, you, we seem to be one of the first to figure out that you could do tv with the same quality of movies even on an episodic level right with uh with homicide and uh yeah and uh oz for sure i did look i look because i came out of television and television has uh an important place as opposed to just features because when i originally got the book uh simon's book on homicide it was about developing it as a film and i thought no it's better as a television

series because you can just let these stories play out and then fortunately at that time uh i was able to uh i said look i'd like to shoot it because back then it was like well you you'll do some exteriors and you do all the interiors and yeah and and i thought well that's not going to be realistic uh to me and i said i'd like to shoot it in baltimore yeah and they said well the cost and whatever and i said well but what we'll do is we'll just basically shoot on 16 millimeter, which super 16, which no network show was ever on super 16 and no show was handheld on super 16. What would they do?

What would they take out there? 35 millimeter on the street. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I thought, I thought, you know,

by having a little handheld super 16, you know, we could have a raggedness and let the raggedness be part of the show. Right. There's an edginess about it. And I thought, uh, and,

and, and again, it goes back to my youth. I loved naked city when I was a kid. Right. I love that television show. And that was shot on the streets of New York. And so I thought,

gee, I wonder if I could just do that for Baltimore and, and we can be even more ragged than, uh, uh, uh, naked city was in its time. And so that's how it evolved. And was Simon happy with it initially? Is he, has he always been okay? I mean, that's how he, that's when he started to write. Cause we brought him in, he became one of the writers on the show and that's where he started to make that real transition from a journalist to a writer. And you got Richard Belzer in New Life.

Yes. I heard we were about to cast some other actor. And I thought, you know, this guy's not bad, but I don't know how surprising, you know, I said, maybe I need to get some guy that some, and I couldn't quite explain it, you know, so we need some guy that does something different or whatever. And I was riding in my car and I was listening to Howard Stern and Belzer was on Howard Stern. And I was listening to him and the rhythms that he had. And I thought, gee, I wonder if he can,

he could be an actor. And so he came in, he read, he wasn't particularly good. And I said, well, why don't we come back one more time and just sort of, you kind of know it,

you know, so you like, you know, you're just talking like you would do if you're doing your, a standup, you know,

just so it's more naturalistic. And he he got better. He wasn't great at that time. But I thought, you know, with a little bit more time, I think he can he can land this character. And that's how it happened. And I didn't realize also before I forget that that you wrote And Justice for All. Yeah. With was she your wife at the time? Yes, Valerie Curtin. Yeah. So you wrote, you're out of order.

I'm out of order. You're out of order. That's one of those Marty lines, right? Yes, it is. Yeah, it's very much so. That came about because of the diner guys that grew up and some one in particular became a lawyer and so when i would go back and visit and we were talking he was telling me he said you know something the legal system is so screwed up he said you always get this perry

mason kind of law shows or whatever he says it's chaos it's chaos it's it's madness and so we started talking and he was telling me stories and i started gathering the stories and uh and then i i was telling you know valerie and then ultimately we we you know we did we turned it into a screenplay oh the chaos that is exactly it with je with Jeffrey Tambor throwing those plates in the hallway. Yeah, no, it's the friend of mine was saying, you don't understand. He was telling me about the fact that, you know, some judges, you know, carried guns in the courtroom. Jack Gordon, he was so good with a gun and stuff. And he was telling me, he said, this is it's another you don't understand how crazy it is.

He said, it's another, you don't understand how crazy it is. You know, people coming in for a case or whatever, and they got the wrong client. I mean, he said, you know, he was telling many, many stories. And that's how it happened. And that movie did well. And that was with, how did that get set up with Jewison and everything? We wrote it, and we gave it to a producer named Joe Bazan. And Joe Bazan gave it to Norman Jewison, who really responded to it.

And then he wanted Pacino. Then basically Al wanted a big reading, you know, have some reading to make sure that that's what he wanted to do, which I have to tell you was one of the worst experiences that I can remember because Jewison's got all these actors in this conference room in the evening, start to go good. And then Al gets a little quieter, you know, cause he's thinking, you know, cause I mean, now I know him well, but so he's, he's getting a little quieter, you know? So then the other actors not wanting to show him up and they get a little quiet yeah and then Al is like

thinking as he's you know he's going over this now he's taking long a time to say things now they're getting a little slower yeah so it's getting quieter and then it's getting slower and slower and slower to the point that I didn't even know what the story was anymore I couldn't even I looked at Valerie so what in the world is a total disaster yeah go back to the hotel it's about one o'clock in the morning and Joe was and calls and says Al loves it and that's how it happened and he was a big star at that time right that was his time he's one of the great great actors i've had such a good time i'll tell you man the the um the kvorkian movie the you know you don't know jack you did that for HBO, right? Yeah. I really think that's really one of the best performances out of him ever.

He's amazing. He's amazing. And he's so great, in a sense, to work with and throw ideas around, et cetera. And he just absorbs certain things, and then he's able to use it, you know, because I said to him before we started tuning, I met with Gaborkin. And so we sit down in the office. And at some point, someone came and says, Jack, would you like some coffee? And he said, yeah, coffee would be good. And he said, they said, decaf. And he said yeah coffee would be good and he said uh they said decaf and he said decaf is for cowards and and i laughed and he smiled and he went out and then i realized he's got this

real sense of humor about him so i said to al i said we have to find little places where we can have a little bit of humor to this character it'll make it a richer character because he actually is you know fun at times yeah here's dr death but he's actually has a sense of humor and so uh he said okay i said i'll find places for it where we can you know we can just sort of mine that periodically and which we were able to add to it and he just he'll go he'll try things i mean he's very open and just uh i can't say enough about him well for me the interesting thing was there was a period there where you know he he did a couple of roles that were were so defining and but they were so over the top you know scent of a woman, scarface. The thing is, how do these method guys, how do these huge stars from the 70s, specifically him and De Niro, you know, how do they age? How do

they keep working? You know, and De Niro sort of found this new life in comedy, you know, where he can parody himself pretty well, but he can also do the other thing. But he, you know, but it's very difficult for some actors not to become this sort of collection of habits and ticks that they can just fill up again, you know. So for me, like when I watched the Kevorkian, I was like, he's so capable. They both are actually because even De Niro in that movie, The Intern, the one he did with Anne Hathaway, it's actually a great performance. intern, the one he did with Anne Hathaway, it's actually a great performance. But the way that Pacino can tap into vulnerability, because, I mean, that's really what made him amazing in the 70s, was that even as Michael Corleone, the evolution of that character from the vulnerability that he's capable of.

Yeah. Like, it seemed to have come back to me. I could see it in the Kevorkian thing, and I could see him using his chops in a way that like he's not a caricature of himself, you know? No, not no, not at all. I mean, look, I think it depends on the on the role that you take on. Right. Well, you work with De Niro, too, on the Madoff thing, right? Yes. Yeah. And that's a very quiet, very quiet character. Yeah, for sure. Uh, that, uh, that De Niro did. And I, I thought he was spectacular in that. Do they work similarly? No, they're, they're, they're different. You know, they're, they're very different on their

approach. Um, how so do it? Um, I, you know, because when they're doing what I should say this, when they're actually doing a scene, I think that they're, they're the same and that they have this instinct. They're great at listening. You know, they're great listeners. Yeah. And, and that's one of the key things in terms of a talented actor is that they'll hear something and they're responding in a way that you that we gravitate to like want to watch their face because there's something about it that compels us to stare at that screen. They both have that ability to listen and are very open, you know, to things that'll happen, you know, that they could, they could be spontaneous with, it won't be like something that line is being said and say, wait a minute.

And he didn't say that line, you know, they don't, they're in the scene and they're going and things will happen. And you'll, you'll, if you're, if you got the camera in the right place for it, you can pick up another special moment here and there. And so they're very spontaneous that way. Yeah. Jeff Daniels once told me like he, he was very emphatic about it about movie actors it's like you got to learn how to work your face it's all you know you get it's all it's all about the face you know and i

never really thought about that i'm paraphrasing but he was very emphatic about it that all the acting in movies is the most of it is the. It's the face and it's the eyes. I know that sounds like crazy in a way, but I think there's a scene with Bob when he's in prison in Madoff and he's looking at this piece of footage on the computer and you just see him staring at the screen, at that computer screen and staring at it and it's he's mesmerized he's totally in it you know yeah yeah and then and then i'll cut it's not like he's staying in a character then it's like cut okay

and then he walks away yeah yeah i thought i've seen him work i work with him briefly in that i was in a scene in the joker so i i got got to spend like a week or like three or four days on set with him watching it. But the weird thing is you watch him because he didn't have to do a lot for that role. You know, he was just like a talk show host. interesting to see you know what i saw that day and i'm thinking like how the fuck are they gonna put this together and then you watch it you're like oh my god like you know what they know about themselves and their process and how they do the work after so long i couldn't see how it was all gonna work when i was there but it was perfect you know it's kind of astounding it is i mean it's a gift you know in the end of the day there are these people have this kind of gift and they know how to they know how to develop it yeah and paterno was great too that's a difficult character that were these like these three movies with the made off the cavorkian and paterno were they were they brought to you or did you were those your ideas they all

came to me initially and then ultimately i worked I worked with the writers on developing. And so know, things are going to change and evolve. And then you have to figure out how best to, to create a moment or define a moment a little bit more, which is, you know, it's all part of the building process of doing a film. It's not like you can show up one afternoon and here's the script and you go shoot it. You know what I mean? Because you got all these, all these departments have to ultimately fit in like a glove

because what is the cinematography going to be like? What color palette are you working with? Yeah. What kind of architecture is going to be around it as well? Because all those things influence a given scene. It's like I said to someone one time that if you wrote a scene and it's supposed to be outside on a tree-lined street and you're going to shoot it in a kitchen,

you just can't move it to the kitchen and it's going to work. Sometimes you'll play around with it or you'll say, wouldn't it be better if we did it this way as opposed to that way? There's all these variables that hopefully you get it right as you go along with the process. There's nothing mechanical about filmmaking.

It requires a combination of elements that have to come together and you've got to get this unit functioning in a certain way to support the piece. Now, you've made a ton of movies. Some have done better than others. Do you look at, are there movies that you've done where you're like, well, that one didn't quite come together? You know, here's the thing. I seldom watch films that i've done

once i finished it yeah uh so sometimes if i'm sitting in i'm switching channels and i start to watch for a minute and say oh i did that movie and then immediately i switched to another channel why i don't i don't know how to watch it once it's done. Because what am I doing? I'm just watching what for just the entertainment value of it. You know, it's like I did that. So just the idea of going back. Also, your memories tied up with that process are what they are.

Yes, there's a million things. Right. You're not going to be able to remove yourself from that. Like, I can't imagine you're watching one of your movies and there's a moment you're this fucking yeah that was a pain in the ass that's yeah right yeah yeah like i have i went to a festival it was a few years ago and uh they wanted to show a rain man at the festival it was a big big audience and so i thought you know you go there and et cetera, and they introduce you, et cetera, and then they're going to show the movie. And I said, well, then I'll sneak out. And the festival director said, no, you can't leave.

You can't leave. I said, no, I don't want to stay and watch. And he said, well, you can. They would be offended. This was somewhere in Europe. You'll be offended if you don't stay for the film or whatever. So I sat and watched it, you know, on the big screen, which was the first time I saw the movie since 1988.

Yeah. And I had to sit there and watch it, which I enjoyed it, but it's very hard to watch, you know, just to see what you've done in the past. But don't you, like i used to have a hard time watching myself do stand-up which it was obviously different but as time has gone on i realized like when i watched the things i'm like well that was a pretty good you know i was me that's a good representation of what i do yeah i've evolved that obviously but you know i i don't

have to hate it right but you don't hate your movies right you just no no no i don't have to hate it. Right. But you don't hate your movies, right? No, no, no, I don't. I just, I figure I can, I've, there's, I can use that time better by switching to another channel. That's easy. That's the other guy that I couldn't think of. It's De Niro, Pacino, and Hoffman. Those were the guys. Those were that generation of method movie stars. And they're all totally different they are they how they go about things yeah i mean uh dustin is uh is a character into himself you know in

another place and and uh the uh and you have to figure out and part of the fun of of of of the process is figuring certain things out like very early on um just remembering this is so long ago but we're doing this scene uh are you working with both of them in wag the dog i just realized that yes both were in wag the dog yeah and uh but i just tell you one quick scene with with it becomes a character moment is on um rain man he's sitting with tom cruz and in this little coffee shop and i said to uh dustin i said uh you know the character this is very early on like day one day two somewhere in there yeah i said the character seems too depressed to me you know and i said you know you've seen you know from all the research about autistics they're busy they're busy like you know they'd be looking up at the

ceiling there how many tiles how many of this you know they're they're looking they're they're active they're not just sitting depressed he said okay all right so now we got to do the take again and now he's looking up he's involved oh it's going great now now tom's talking to him uh ray do you want to so and so and he doesn't respond ray do you want to so then all right cut i said dustin he's he's talking to you you're supposed to say you know uh you have to respond to him he said yeah but i got so involved with the tiles and the ceiling that i didn't i wasn't paying attention to him i said well well, if you're going to do that, we're going to have a very serious problem with this movie. You have to be able to

acknowledge them at some point in time, you know, not right away, but you have to acknowledge them, you know, but I got involved. And so if you watch the movie, I said, think of it this way, you're busy with the tiles and the ceiling and you're counting and et cetera, but you can hear him. You can hear him. So you can just, maybe just going, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're busy, but yeah, yeah. And so why don't we do that? Now we did it and it was great and that worked. And then that's, if you ever watch the film, it's all through the film. Yeah, that's the device. It was great.

And that worked. And then that's, if you ever watch the film, it's all through the film. Yeah, that's the device. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that became the whole thing. Because he got so involved in whatever he was looking at that he was no longer in the scene. And so you have to find a way to incorporate. So those yes are him coming back to reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're holding him off. You don't want to pay attention until you really realize what it is he wants then it's like now and that and that and he was able to integrate into the that into the character because it made sense to him yeah yeah and so that was like the hook of the movie that was that was the impression that people did and that yes exactly and that became thing now it's accidental and it's because of that but i'm saying that's what that's what happens with film with characters that you're working with is that you have to find a way you can't just say no you can't do it you have to say

this and then it's more mechanical but this became something that we didn't i didn't know that it was but as it went along you you went, oh yeah, yeah. It can work here. It'll work here. It's like the key to the guy element. That was a key. Yes. Yep.

And you stumble on it and you stumble on it. It's not in the script. It just becomes that. That's amazing. And that's part of the discovery and the fun of it. When you're open enough to see where it's going to take you. Yeah. You know, you're never sure, but you got to explore it.

Otherwise, you're going to go, then it's just by the numbers. And in the end of the day, with a film, we respond to certain things about character, and that becomes so important. It's the character that carries the day. Yeah. And so that's what happened. But it's interesting that all those movies, you know, all these moments, and at least in the few

movies of yours that we, you know, talked about in depth where, you know, at least in Diner and in Rain Man and, uh, that these moments that become signature moments are exactly those Marty moments, you know, really. Even in Justice for All, you have sort of, yeah, yeah, what are you going to do, Marty? What do you want to do, Marty? And like, you know, you can eat that. I'm not comfortable with the word nuance.

Whatever it is, you know, these are like, they would be passing moments, you know. Yes. If they weren't. Yeah, yeah. And then they become crucial, They would be passing moments, you know. Yes. If they weren't. Yeah. Yeah. And then they become crucial, and that becomes what an audience awful me connects to. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And even with Robin, you know, the good morning Vietnam thing. Did that guy actually say it like that, or was that a Robin thing? Good morning Vietnam. I'm not sure. I can't remember anymore. I don't know if he quite did it the same way, but I think he did something in that ballpark.

I was just thinking about Chayefsky again. When was the last time you watched the movie Hospital? It's funny you say, because it's one of my favorite movies. That scene in the beginning about that he's dead, so-and-so's dead in the bed. Dr. Schaefer. What do you mean he's dead? He's a so-and-so's dead in the bed. Dr. Schaefer. What do you mean he's dead? He's a so-and-so.

That little run in the beginning of that film is extraordinary. Yeah, I just watched it again. It is one of the darkest satires that was made at that time because it is a satire. But it starts with that thing you know so so and so in room 103 and whatever and he's dead in that old thing what do you mean he's but that that whatever that that run is i can't even paraphrase it right now dr shaver our dr shaver and then george c scott comes in and finally saying something like, where do you train your nurses?

At Dachau? Dachau! Priceless. That movie I can watch over and over. just the dialogue just shines in a in a way that is so amazing yeah that's so character driven those kinds of moments even in network dude that don't i mean the ned baby monologue and network is crazy but again that moment that grounds it in the moment that that he does that resonates with you where where where finch looks up at him and goes why are you telling me this and he goes because you're on tv dummy and then like finches oh i've seen the face of god yeah yes yeah and what's so great about it is if

in talking about television, and he's talking about the influence of television, right? Right, but there's that moment where he's going, you have meddled with the primal forces. And then he stops and goes, am I getting through to you? You know, like that. Like he stops the pitch to go like, oh, that's great, man. That's great shit. I mean, look, television is one of the uh the forces that has

changed mankind in in ways that we still have yet to understand i mean even going back to talking about you know stars and strife and everything else in terms of the world that we live in today television television's influence is so gigantic in terms of it has shaped everything, and certainly in terms of politics, because politics is all based on television. It seems to me that that, you know, outside of whatever experience you had in the slow build to, you know, becoming the writer and then the director, it seems like, you know, that the future was sort of laid out for you in that control room in Baltimore.

In essence, true. But you can't see it in advance. I mean, you can't go, oh, here we go. I mean, just the puppet experience alone and the, you know, realizing how things fit together and then, you know, troubleshooting when you don't even have to. I mean, that moment where the guy's like, now we're going to show you the beginning of the movie i mean you know that's a that's an important lesson to learn you know it's you know no no no it's fun because you know

if you go all the way back to ranger how right where that was a local a local uh children's show yeah nine to ten yeah and you you would do the hand puppets and it seems odd to say this, but the idea I was doing the hand puppets and we would play like a Beatles song. And they had never done that. I had Marvin Monkey, his Ringo Starr playing the drums and things. You make up some crazy stuff, you know? Yeah. Full creative freedom. Yes. It's whatever you can figure out to go do.

And you grab some stuff and you try different things. And some stuff, you know, actually got a little attention, you know, but it was like, what would you do here? You got some puppets, you know, little hand puppets. What can you do with them? And then you start to figure out, but this might be fun. Yeah. And then those puppets become, you know, Pacino and De Niro and Hoffman. That's good. You did good.

You did all right for yourself. You're dealing with top notch puppets now. Yes, right. I hadn't thought of it in those terms. It was great talking to you, Barry. It's fun. Yeah, man. Take care of yourself.

Thank you very much. All right. What a great... That was great. I enjoyed that immensely. uh again his documentary that he produced stars in strife is now available on most video on demand platforms and it just started running this week on stars i wish i'd remember that craig t nielsen was had a big part in and justice for all before i watched it the other night after i talked to barry we could have talked

a little bit about that but he must have gotten that gig, right? Here's a little guitar for you. It picks up. It picks up towards the end. It picks up. Here we go. Thank you. Boomer lives Monkey Lafonda

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