WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1163 - John Cusack

Episode Date: October 5, 2020

John Cusack is always trying to stay engaged with the world. From a young age when activist priests used to visit his parents to the Reagan years when he underwent a political awakening to present day, John uses his perception of how the world works as a way to build the characters he plays. That comes in handy in the new series Utopia, where John plays an evil billionaire. John also tells Marc what it was like to play Brian Wilson while working with Brian Wilson, how Being John Malkovich got made, and why Danny Trejo told the world that out of all the tough guys on the set of Con Air, John was the baddest mother of all.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. If you're new here, just go ahead, sit down, you'll get used to it. I just ramble on for a bit, and then I'll talk to John Cusack. Yeah, you know him. Come on. From Say Anything, Being John Malkovich, Gross Point Blank. He's been in everything. He's been around forever. And he's in this new Amazon show called Utopia, which I watched all of. It's a dark comic book oriented show. Revolves around a relatively ragtag group of grown-up nerds. But it gets pretty violent. It's pretty intense. Deals with global conspiracy.

Deals with a lot of relevant stuff. Oddly. What's going on with you guys, man? Is it like, hey, I don't want to be grim or dark or even, I don't want to over gloat on some level. But I mean, on the very basic level, I think what's happened here in the world of the United States of America, the great country of the United States of America, is that we've been given a few days off. states of america is that we've been given a few days off a dark few days it's a dark reprieve but it's interesting to sort of continue along the lines of um a joke i did on my uh comedy special in 2017 i think it was too real uh lynn Lynn Shelton-directed comedy special.

That one and my last one, End Times Fun, which dropped right before the shutdown, Lockdown. But the idea I had in Too Real was that living in this country during this period with this administration. When you pick up your phone and open your news app, it's like having your abusive stepfather kick open your bedroom door just to say, I'm burning the house down. Then turn around and slam the door behind him. And you're sitting there thinking like, what? Should I leave? Do I have to leave? Do we? What does that mean?

Is it serious? What? Should I leave? Do I have to leave? What does that mean? Is it serious? Continuation of that idea. Now that the bad stepdaddy is perhaps fighting for his life in the hospital, we get this strange, dark reprieve of a lack of daily chaos generated by that guy and his minions and you really have these we've had these couple of days to really realize just how assaulting it is and how completely mind-fucking it is look i know there are people out there that like this man i don't know how you can respect

this man but i i know that there are people out there that like him because he feeds something in their hearts something terrible but just the lack of daily insanity and chaos being reaped on our minds on our country on our institutions on our hearts has been interesting no time to reflect donald trump is a fallible corrupt corpulent selfish human who is sick with a disease that doesn't give a fuck who he is that he literally taunted for months and months he taunted this disease his hubris enabled him to believe his own bullshit he knew i think a lot of you knew i think a lot of people who wanted to follow the example or the anger of Trump and believe that it's

nothing, they knew, you all knew. But now I guess in this time of reflection, perhaps you're reflecting on maybe this is a problem. Maybe this is something to be afraid of. Maybe this is a horrendous failure in public safety policy. Maybe I believe the wrong guy. Maybe I believe the wrong thing. Maybe I should have thought about not only myself, but other people and their health because I was sloppy and careless and didn't believe enough to even get tested out of respect for the people around me, the people I work with, the people in my family, the people I see at my place of worship or wherever the fuck you go.

It means that his narcissism and his hubris enabled him to continue to go out in the world, knowing that he was probably positive, if not definitely. Zero fucks. It's one thing to be above the law or to think you're above the law or to bend the law to your rules but it's another ways to come spiraling to the ground with the wax holding the feathers and your wings together melting because you dared to get that close to the sun. On some level, there's some weird biblical lesson in this. on some level, there's some weird biblical lesson in this.

Old-style God. Yahweh God. I mean, if there's anything that should be clear, is that the disease doesn't care, and the only way we're going to get back to any sense of functionality is if everyone gets on board and takes the precautions necessary to move forward, to stop being belligerent children and to think that a mask is somehow an impingement on your freedom. No one's telling you you can't do anything. We're just telling you to give a

shit about the other people in your life, the older people in this world, the frail people in this world, the people who have pre-existingexisting conditions the people that have to go to work every day and fucking behave properly so we can fucking get through this i mean jesus man what are you fucking for got my mail-in ballot i'm gonna hold off on it not because i don't know who i'm gonna vote for but i don't know what's going to happen in the next few days. And it's not so much I believe in karma or anything else, but this man who may be fighting for his life, who is the president of the United States, elected by a minority of the people in this country, is one of the great human monsters he's one of the preeminent historically one of the spectacular monstrosities of individual humanness of individual humanness whose selfishness enabled him to

allow 200,000 people to die of a disease he now has. Millions of people to be infected. Seeing no responsibility in himself as the leader of this country to make it a priority to put health care policy front and foremost would have been easy but he doesn't give a fuck and now he's sick i bet he give a fuck. And now he's sick. I bet he gives a fuck now.

Because he doesn't want to go out like Stan Chera, man. Doesn't want to go out like Stan Chera. My hand is doing better. It's still a little sensitive. I've been taking all my antibiotics. doing better. It's still a little sensitive. I've been taking all my antibiotics. Thank you. And it's sensitive, no swelling, no skin cellulitis, no panic anymore.

And I felt like I was getting through it. I got two more pills to take. And I thought I was getting through it, and I am. But then I get this email from this woman who said, I was on antibiotics for two weeks, and I killed all of my gut fauna and then had to be treated for, you know, uncontrollable diarrhea. And I'm like, great! I wonder if that's happening.

I'm a pretty conscientious gut gardener. I've got a pretty good gut garden going on because I think about my gut garden garden and I take care of it. I feed my gut garden sauerkrauts of different kinds. I feed my gut garden coconut yogurt with probiotics in it of a couple different kinds. And then I'll feed my gut garden some prebiotic yams to feed the gut bugs that will flourish in my gut garden. So now I'm a little concerned about my gut garden. And I'm a fucking damn good gut gardener.

So I'll just keep it up. I'll just keep eating the probiotics. I'm okay for now. But I see, unfortunately, the prognosis in my mind is now like, hey, I'm not going to lose my thumb from a fucking cat bite and perhaps uncontrollable diarrhea is in my future because my gut garden has died. So I was a little nervous talking to John Cusack because he had a bit of a reputation for being a little unpredictable, maybe a little tricky. But he was very nice, and I enjoyed talking to him, and I watched all of his new show, Utopia,

which is on Amazon Prime. It's a very, it's an exciting comic book nerd show, and it's kind of violent. It's definitely not Stranger Things. Anyways, this is me talking to John. He was in Chicago. I was in L.A. All right. almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No.

But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region.

See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. I've been I'm good. I'm happy to see you. How are you? I'm good, man. Dude, I'm watching this fucking show, Utopia. I watched all of it. Oh, did you? Did you watch all eight episodes? I got seven.

There's another one? Or is there eight? Yeah, I think there's like the final... How did they not give me that? I think they're saving that piece for the end. They don't want anyone to see that. Here's the thing about this. It's odd because I watched...

I interviewed Janelleae uh for homecoming and your sister plays a a sort of morally dubious evil person in that and you in this one are a completely immoral deep you know dubious evil fucking this it It's interesting. There's a parallel villain thing going on between the Cusack siblings. We're just trying to portray one of the many great benevolent billionaires that are there for all of our common good. They're going to solve climate crisis.

They're going to solve the food, the water shortages. Everything. They're going to take the Celebrity water shortages everything they're going to take the celebrity space shuttle to mars right everything's going to be fine just keep giving all of our public loot the commonwealth and give it to the benevolent billionaires and their foundations all it will trickle down like gentle rain well all of us will be cleansed in the purifying gentle rain. Of QAnon. The tree of entitlement.

The drops will come through the leaves and wash over us. Thank God. When is this happening? Is this happening soon? Stop me from this gibberish. So I hadn't really been a podcast person, and everyone was saying, well, oh, my God, you're on your podcast. And so I said, well, I've got to listen to one. And I listened to you and David Letterman.

I thought it was terrific. Oh, yeah. Are you guys friends? Well, I've been on a show. I don't know if he'd consider me a Well, I've been on a show. I don't know if he'd consider me a friend. I've been on a show. Because he used to really speak highly of you. There was a period there where he was just sort of...

Oh, that's nice to hear. Do you remember, though? There was a period there where he just kept saying, you're the best actor. There's no one better than you. It was a while ago. Did you see that? Yeah, it was early on in your career.

He just was constantly flattering you. I remember when I was a kid, I was there, and I went with Rob Reiner, and when I did the shirt thing, I was in the audience, and I think he had a cold that night, and I remember he said something. The movie was great, especially the girl,

and I remember I was in the audience. I was a kid. I was like, well, David Leibman doesn't like me. Was that the first movie? First time I got a lead role in a movie. That was a sweet movie. Wasn't that a remake of a Clark Gable movie?

Yeah, it happened one night. Yeah, I kind of remember. But before we go into that, I just want to say, here's what happened to me when I was watching Utopia, was that because of the shit we're going through now, it kind of broke my brain a little. Did you watch it? Do you watch the final work?

Did you watch the series Utopia? I'd seen a few of the first couple episodes, but I haven't seen the last, I'd say, from, I mean, I know what we shot, but I haven't seen, you know, four through nine. Because there was because of what's going on in the world right now. It's not that it was prescient as much as it like the nature of the conspiracy just kind of kind of broke that part of my brain a little bit. So, like, after I sat through seven episodes of Utopia, I was pretty sure that I understood the entire authoritarian momentum that's going on now and how it's all connected and intentional. And I'm not sure I'm wrong, but thanks to your thing, now I'm all fucked up in the head, more so than I need to be. That's kind of a Gillian Flynn.

That's her specialty? Yeah, it's her specialty. What else has she done? Oh, gosh, she's done Gone Girl and Sharp Objects. Oh, right. Yeah. But I thought the show was pretty good. I thought initially getting into it that it was going to be like Stranger Things, but it's much more violent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's a terrific writer. And she's a terrific writer. So, you know, the kind of architecture of it is, you know, when you watch a movie, like I've been, during the pandemic, I've been binge watching all these great old Graham Greene movies. Oh, yeah. John Le Carre movies. And you're like, all right, spy genre, these great writers.

And, you know, they've introduced a character here in the first act. Usually the third act they're going to become, you know they've introduced a character here in the first act usually the third act they're going to become you know they're going to come back and yeah and gillian her the architecture is so sort of sophisticated that you really can't see where the the trap doors are right right right it's a really really interesting writer So when you took the role, how much had you read? Well, it was one of those really nice phone calls you get where somebody says, hey, we'd love for you to do this. And you're like, oh, wow.

And then can we send you the scripts? And I read them, and she sent me all eight, and I read them, and I started reading. And I don't know if you're this way, but if writing is really good, scripts and i read them and she sent me all eight and i read them and i started reading and and uh i don't know if you're this way but um if writing is really good you it's not hard to read you just keep going right and read it i like i literally read all of them until three in the morning and you know i was like of course i'm gonna do it it's great i think it's a it was such a interesting casting choice because you're so capable of being kind of like um It was such an interesting casting choice because you're so capable of being kind of like seemingly benevolent.

And those kind of villains, you know, who are just so sweet. I mean, the thing that stands out in my mind is where you pull that kid back to smell his head. And then what happens after, it's just it's those are the worst kind of evil guys the ones that are so sweet yeah yeah when you play something like that what do you do do when you think about it do you just play it straight do you just i mean you don't have to put any evil in place you just follow the words no i i contemplate it you know i contemplate that stuff for a while because you know i just think it's very interesting people's perception of themselves, the distance between that and who they actually are or what they actually do.

And so that's sort of a theme, you know, that I like to play around with, I think, probably. So, I mean, I was always fascinated by, you know, we're probably the same age-ish. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Do you remember, like, 1978, 1980? Like, that was Reagan era was, like, scary.

Right. It was, like, sure, Reagan. I don't remember being, I was not politically awake, so it didn't hit me the same way, say, W did. So, but I knew that the people that i liked who were politically awake were upset but i don't know that i was feeling it in the same way but yeah yeah well well i just thought a bit like um you know when they said uh the nuclear launch is ready and he would make a joke about nuclear war and stuff and the berlin wall was still up and and you thought about these people who go into sort of these rooms and they would stage these mega death war games with weapons and i was always interested like all

right so those guys like think they're good guys and then they go home to their wife and they play with their kids and then they like you know i don't know they could play cards right go to baseball games but yet they can they they can rationalize mass murder. They can rationalize mass destruction. There's no human engagement with the numbers. Yeah, there's this kind of a schism between what they do, what their job is, and their perception of themselves. Probably in the 80s, when I was growing up,

you know, you'd read Noam Chomsky and you'd read all this stuff and then you'd listen to The Clash and they'd do a double album on Sandinista and then you'd start to look around. So I was always interested in American exceptionalism arguments. Sure. And what was behind all that.

Right. And it's probably just because, you know, American exceptionalism arguments and what was behind all that. And it's probably just because following great films and books and plays. But how did you, because it's weird because I don't think I got really active around that stuff or my understanding of it didn't really come into full form until probably much later. Did you grow up with activism in the house? I mean, were you educated in that way? What were your parents like politically? Yeah, it was a really weird, interesting bit of freak luck on my part, which was that my father

served in World War II, and he served with Philip Berrigan, one of the Berrigan brothers. He was part of the Cantonsville Nine. Yeah. He became great friends with the Berrigan brothers, you know, who was part of the Cantonsville Nine. Yeah. So he became great friends with the Berrigan brothers, and they became like family. So Dan and Phil Berrigan, and these were those,

they were the underground radical priests. Right. You know, covered Time Magazine. They had that peace sign, you know, and they burnt the draft cards and all that. So they were at all of our, you know, christenings, eulogies, wakes. So they were around when I was a kid. And of course, you know, anything your parents like you say, that's bullshit, right?

Right. But I remember recognizing something in my parents' eyes that their eyes got like bigger and wider. my parents' eyes, their eyes got bigger and wider, and they became these higher versions of themselves when the Berrigans were going to come visit. Interesting. This was a time when they were like, these guys were on the lam. They were underground for a while, and they would go in and out of jail. But I knew that as I was a child and a teenager i could see that my

parents eyes like were um elevating to a place where you could see that there was some something higher than themselves that they were um into engaging with when those guys came around yeah and so i think that kind of uh i didn't realize later but that and then of course like all the great films and books and poetry and music that we all love of course of course but like those guys coming around and your parents being uh kind of uh uh hosting them i mean were there conversations going on did were there and so Were there... And how many kids in your family? There was five of us. And you're the middle?

Yeah. How about you? Two. Got one little brother. A couple years younger. Oh, yeah. I was fourth out of five. Fourth out of five.

And this is... Was it a Catholic thing? Irish Catholic, yeah. But that's interesting. But they? Irish Catholic, yeah. But that's interesting. So, you know, but they were Irish Catholic progressives. Yeah, you know, that Jesuit. Right, the sort of, you know, like honor the real legacy of Christ thing, service.

And it was like more like the Vatican II thing, you know, where there was that kind of accidental Pope who was into the social justice thing and started the Catholic liberation theology thing, where you couldn't just say you were a Christian, you actually had to help poor people

and fight against injustice. You know, there was a movement that was very influential and, you know, Dorothy Day, the Catholic worker. And so these were influential people to your folks dorothy day the catholic worker and it's like these were influential people to your folks the yeah uh the barragans came out of that movement right folks movement it was like the civil rights oh wow social justice intellectual so i was sort

of lucky enough to be born into a family where that shit was there where where uh service was important good deeds yeah or or you know or or the. Or the truth. Faith without works is dead. Yeah. Friend of Bill. Yes. Definitely friend of Bill. But that's what that is, right? Yeah. What did your dad do for life? What did you grow up looking up to in your father? Was he in show business?

No, he was a terrific guy. He passed away about 18 years ago. He had pancreatic cancer. Oh, for work. Yeah, that's a tough one. about 18 years ago. He had pancreatic cancer, but he came, yeah, that's a tough one. But the only thing about it's good is that you get,

you just definitely get to say goodbye. Cause I thought, well, it would be a different thing if, you know, if somebody just had a heart attack or got hit by a bus, you know, the only way to get cancer is you definitely get to go through your grief stages and say goodbye. Right.

But he went to World War II, came out on the GI Bill, went to Holy Cross, and then came out debt-free and could put money in the bank, and he would earn 7%. What did he do for a job? He worked in advertising, that Mad Men era. Oh, yeah, right. He hated it. But that's what he did to sort of take care of his family.

And then later on in his life, he started a documentary film company and would make commercials like for Santa Fe Railroad and stuff. He was a bit of a filmmaker and then wrote plays and acted Moonlighted as an actor. He did? Yeah, yeah. He did a bunch of stuff, some plays and worked in films a little bit. And I was lucky enough to – and he wrote a screenplay that I made for HBO called The Jack Bull, which was with LQ Jones and John Goodman.

And Bob Dylan gave us the Ring Them Bells for the final song. Oh, I've got to watch that. LQ Jones is a trip, man. It's a cool Western. It's a good Western. LQ Jones is like, that must have been wild hanging out with that guy. Yeah, man. I just want to talk about Peckinpah all night. I know, man. Him and Strother Martin. And LQ, of course, made one of my favorite films ever. Which one? The Boy and His Dog.

Oh, yeah. Trippy movie. Way ahead of its time. Classic. Did he direct more, or was that it? I think that was the one he directed, yeah. It's so wild. There's that era of guys

just who were able to do that. You wouldn't expect that guy would direct that movie. But him and Shruther Martin in The Wild Bunch just running around pulling jewelry off of dead guys. It's great. Yeah, and also all of Peckinpah's films. You can see him in through. I'm kind of a Peckinpah freak.

Like, I kind of put myself through the paces of, like, watching all of his movies at different points in my life. I'll just do a little Peckinpah Film Festival. Do you know what I just got into recently? Which I kind of want to whip myself for denying myself the pleasure of it for years. Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. Oh, yeah. That's great. I know, but what was

wrong with me? I mean, for 15 years, I forgot how great a film that was. I don't know. I think sometimes you're not sure where Chris Christopherson fits in in your head. But he's great. He's great. And he's also great in Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia as the biker

guy. Right? Yeah, but there's just sometimes you just like i don't beat yourself up about it that's interesting that you you should be excited that you've found it but i i sort of refounded and i thought god what was i doing all this time i mean it's god well there's a lot of movies as alias as alias yeah just sitting around it doesn't say much but he's there he doesn't say much no no but the the songs are great and yeah and the weird thing about that movie is like i think pack you know billy the kid died when he was like 21 you know and and by that point you know christopher's it doesn't matter because it's a myth but it's kind of weird that he's at the age

he is but it's a good movie i like that i movie. I think it's a really, really cool movie. It has that great scene with Slim Pickens when he finally gets shot and Knock on Heaven's Door is playing, and he just walks over by the river. walks over by the river and it's well yeah it's kind of it's it's kind of the most emotional um peckinpah has ever been i think in that sure yeah i mean it's one of those ones where he's like you know he's emotional in a weird way the wild bunch is kind of emotional too you know when those guys know that they're done. Yeah, and kind of in a rage. Yeah, we're going to go out like we all, you know. That one had a real sense of kind of loss.

It's heavy boy shit, man. It's some serious exploration of dude stuff, but it's great. No doubt. Now, when did you start doing, did you start acting in Chicago in the improv scene or did it, what happened? How did that? When you, you were like, you were doing comedy. New York. In New York. Did you ever do like the improv or in the second city or any of that stuff here?

I never, like I was never improv driven. I played early on. I played Zany's there. And when I go back to. It's still there. Sure. Yeah. And I, the last, I taped a special's there. And when I go back to... I still have it. Sure, yeah.

And I taped a special at the Vic a few years ago. And I've played at Thalia Hall. Yeah, great theater. Yeah, yeah. I love Chicago. And I was there not long ago doing some stuff with Swanberg. I've grown to really like that city. Yeah. I didn't do it.

I sort of started it was a very strange thing because i was 14 or 15 and i'd been doing some theater and stuff and then hollywood wanted to make movies about teenagers and they decided to shoot a couple of them in Chicago. And I had had some training. And so it was just kind of like weird, freak luck that I'd had some training. And they decided to make movies about it because there wasn't a thing. Teenage movie wasn't really a thing. Oh, so in the 80s, in the sort of John Hughes thing and the Breakfast Club and all that shit. There's a movie called Class, you know, that was, I think, with Andrew McCarthy.

Andrew McCarthy, and someone, didn't he fuck someone's mom or something? Yeah, yeah. Fucked Rob Lowe's mom, who was... Jacqueline Bessette? Jacqueline Bessette and Cliff Robertson was in this. Right. And so, Lewis Carlino, who had done The Great Santini,

did it in Chicago, and then, you know, like, kind of in Vancouver, Toronto, they cast local actors and I'd been sort of training and doing some stuff so um that's how it started and where were you training were you just training in like kids theater or what yeah that kind of thing yeah and like what about like how do how are all your siblings actors how does that happen like I you know there's there are these dynasties you know, and I have this theory about it, but how did that come to pass? Were you all doing it at the same time or did it happen later for Anne and Joan?

How did it work? Isn't your brother in it, too, sometimes? Yeah, we've all dabbled in it. Three of us are still, that's what we do for a living. Anne, Joan, and myself. My sister Susie and Billy have done a bunch of theater plays and have done a lot of things. But Joanie got the first break when Tony Bill, who was a producer who produced The Sting,

directed a film called My Bodyguard, and he shot it in Chicago. Okay. And that was Alec, no, not Alec Baldwin, a different Baldwin, Adam Baldwin. Adam, yeah. And Chris Mays.

And so Jody got a small part in that, and then we were like, oh, you can be in a movie? Yeah. So it happened the same way for both of you. They just happened to be shooting in Chicago. And you guys had some kid chops. We had a little kid chops.

Yeah. So it was kind of like that. Local casting. A lot of luck. So did you do it? You didn't have any training other than that as a kid? Did you just kind of grow into it? Or did you do it you didn't have any training other than that as a kid did you just kind of grow into it or did you study with people what happened yeah no i studied with um a group

in chicago and um you know but then i was also but by the time i was a sophomore in high school i was doing i i was on i was learning on movie sets so i i really started um i had done stuff earlier as well um you know that kind of terrible stuff where you your mom takes you to auditions as a kid you know because i i always loved the theater and movies yeah i loved going to the old art house cinemas in the you know yeah and seeing like you know you'd see the kurosawa movies yeah they're having them for a week and then you'd see the yeah french wave know you'd see the kurosawa movies yeah they're having them for a week and then you'd see the yeah french wave or you'd see the you know film noir double features yeah so i really loved if i wasn't going to a white sox or a cubs game i loved going to those

great old theaters and like watching these old movies yeah i did too. They're into it. And then, yeah, then they started making movies in Chicago and there was this audition thing. What do you do? You go in there and you try to, you know, you know, try to get a part. Who were your guys? Who do you like watching the most? In terms of...

When I was a kid or... Yeah, I mean, what was it like? Because it seems like as an actor, people are sort of like, that guy knows how to do it. Who are your faves? Do you consider? In terms of the acting guys?

Yeah, but as a comedian, actor? Oh, yeah. No, I have them. I definitely have different heroes for different reasons. You know, I think, you know, Richard Pryor brought a lot of heart to the game in a way that no one had. So like, you know, there's a certain vulnerability and a

sensitivity to the type of comedy I like that you don't see that often. And I think him and his more honest moments was really something. In terms of acting, it seems to, it sort of shifts a lot because when I started acting myself a bit more, I started to try to see you know what people were doing more and how you know like is there a craft to it is it how much of it is just a natural talent you know yeah it seems like a lot of it about 80 of it or more is is you either you have the talent for it or you don't and then if you do you you polish it up however you're going to polish it up and get something into place for yourself. Yeah, I remember that Richard Pryor,

yeah, I remember that Richard Pryor bit where he was doing something on either Johnny Carson show or one of his stand-up specials, but then he played a junkie and then it ended with I Wish You The Best.

And I remember like just being heartbroken. He just, you know, at the end, he just sort of looked at whoever he was talking to, the audience, and said, I wish you the best. Right. The heart, right? Oh, my God. Amazing. Yeah. It was really something, man, when people really lock into it.

But, like, when you do the work, you do you like like what was i thinking about man like like you said for this this most recent role you think about how people see themselves and who they are in reality but like early on i mean you seem to like have the do you have some sort of process that you do because i talk to people mostly to help myself you know in terms of how you approach a role on any given time, do you read the thing over and over again? Do you, you know, if it's not like you, you know, what is it, how do you do it? It kind of depends, you know, if, if you're doing something that, um,

I don't know, it doesn't have, you know, if it's kind of a straight genre, but there's, you, you know, you don't try to turn to turn i don't know a postcard into on the waterfront you know right but if you get if you get something with some depth right then yeah then i think you just sort of um really immerse myself in the world of it to the point i don't know the difference between my thoughts my dreams and the character you know yeah and you do that through like reading or through like you know just thinking about the guy or you know? Yeah, and you do that through, like, reading or through, like, you know, just thinking about the guy or, you know, or... Yeah, or even dreaming stuff.

Like, you know, I'll, you know, you sort of... I'll write myself a letter and say, tell me about... tell me what I need to know and I'll date it. Yeah. And it's weird. The subconscious, if you ask it a question, it'll give you an answer.

Really? I've found that for me, yeah. Or maybe I'm just a weirdo. No, no, no. I'm definitely a weirdo. So you do that, and then you sort of try to dream it. I was really fortunate enough to play Brian Wilson, which was a— I saw that.

Yeah. I thought that was an interesting movie, because there was a couple of Brian Wilsons, right? Were there two or three? Yeah. You and Paul Dano? Yeah, me and Paul Dano. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting movie because there was a couple of Brian Wilsons, right? Were there two or three? It was you and Paul Dano? Yeah, me and Paul Dano. Yeah. Brian was still alive. But so for that one, I got to just, I would just immerse myself in his music.

Like, so literally I would just live in his music. How was that for you, man? Because like I talked, I talked about that. I was talking about that the other day. I can't, I have a hard time listening to his music because I can hear the struggle and the sadness in his heart. I said the other day, I said it was like listening to sadness filtered through cotton candy. But it has a, you know, it has an effect on me that it's too heavy for me sometimes. Yeah.

I mean, he's a strange constellation of attributes. Yeah. You know, because he's really a tough guy in a lot of ways, you know, to survive what he survived. But he's also like this just, you know, it's like he's like a heart with two legs. And his antenna is just. Right. He's tentative. He just dug into the ether.

I mean, the guy's a, he's kind of a, he's a wizard. Yeah, no, yeah. Oh, for sure. But what was interesting for me on that one was the Smile Sessions box set. Oh, okay. From 1966, which was, it's kind of, you know, you can listen to it. It's four albums, and the demo is in the outtakes, and you can hear him constructing the music.

Yeah. And this is pre-computer, where if you needed four oboes, you had to have four oboes. And he can say, let's have the third oboe, and he'd drop the mic. And he's doing it all with one ear. And he's constructing symphonies in pieces. And no one knows exactly what he's doing, but he has it in his head. And also here I'm interacting with all of the people in his life.

So it was almost as if there was a tape on Brian's psyche. And that was the kind of, he had done pet sounds and then he'd done smile the smile sessions and he was kind of you know he was a sort of a one-man beatles right he was in an arms race with beatles to try to yeah figure it out how genius each other yeah and paul mccartney came and heard smile sessions and he actually was chewed the carrots on the song Vegetables. He did. And then he went back to England and said, scrap everything. Yeah.

We've got to steal this guy's sound. Well, you know, I don't know. It's just, he had just. Boo his mind. His mind was blown as well. Right, right, right. The peppers came out. And when he had done Smile, the Beach Boys were on the road,

and they were doing their thing, and they came back, and they listened to this remarkable, groundbreaking music. And they were like, dude, where are the hits? Where's the fucking surf music? Right. Brian was just like, I'm going to bed for three. I'm going to bed for three years. Yeah. Brian was just like, I'm going to bed for three. I'm going to bed for three years. And so anyway, that was the peak of him.

And so I used that as the way into the abyss and then also coming out of it. Because then finally when he reclaimed his life, he was able to play heroes and villains and perform it. So, you know, there's different things, but I try to immerse myself in the world. Well, it's nice when the world is still alive and you have access to them. Yeah. So if you're playing somebody who's alive or somebody who existed, then you can read about them. you know, or somebody who existed, then you can, you know, read, read about them.

Then I give you a dumb actor sounding, um, what, uh, you know, was that like an actor studio? No, no, no, no, no. I just like, I'm just curious about how people, about how people handle it because like, it seems to me that like I can see you and in your roles, you know, but like, you know, there's a varying degree of, you know, what you turn on and what you turn off and how you know but like you know there's a varying degree of you know what you turn on and what you turn off and how you sort of you know the different switches you have in

yourself is going to be how you're going to approach it and it just seems that people have a different there's no single method or or everyone figures out their own fucking tools you know i was just curious about it but like even in like because it seems like as you got older you evolved the sort of a harder edge i guess in in gross point blank there was there's and the grifters and stuff it was getting a little uh darker but like you know there was early on it seemed like you were uh all all heart all vulnerability some struggle but then you started to challenge yourself with things that were you know these are characters were were complicated and sometimes slightly dubious characters and that seemed to

happen as you got older like you challenge yourself it seems like you were pushing against the idea of being cute your whole life yeah well i think maybe that there's a piece of that too when you know if you're nobody should be really i don't know if you're an actor when you're a kid it's a weird thing it's not it's not right it's hard to survive right hard to survive yeah i mean i wasn't like a totally a child actor i was more of a teenager so i was i still sort of you know looked like a right 16 17 years old but um so then I think yeah yeah then people want you to just sort of be kind of witty or cute or whatever they want you to be

but then you got if you're not careful then you just kind of do that you just witty and cute yourself out of the business because you hit a certain age where they only see you

as one thing and and that's over so you yeah I never I never had that sort of worry because I was always trying to, you know, it's like as a comedian, you're thinking about like Richard Pryor, right?

Sure. Yeah, so same here. I was thinking about like, well, I want to do something great. Like how do you do something great? How do you do something great? Yeah, I know it's not like, you know, being real satisfied with yourself and, you know. That's for sure. I talked to Crudup, but was there,

about this sort of thing, was there a point where you're like, the real answer to that is, to challenging yourself and possibly doing something great is to do these character-driven parts and not try to be like, you know, some sort of leading man all the time? try to be like you know some sort of um leading man all the time yeah um or you try to subvert that right all right yeah i sort of had a that that was a thing i tried to do which would be sort of like make a subversive commercial movie where you sort of it looks like right yeah and all the things there that look like this but there's you, then you're sneaking ideas into it. Like what? Which one was that?

Would that be like the Grifters or something? Well, no, like Crosspoint Blank. Oh, yeah. You could see this guy comes back and he's going to his, you know, high school reunion. Yeah. You know, kind of funny, but it's like, you know, underneath it, there's some weird fucked up politics to it. Some serious fucked up shit to it. Some stuff, yeah.

But like, you know, working with somebody like John Sayles, Eight Men Out, which is great, and you're great in it, and was a great bunch of actors and stuff. Like, the difference, I guess, in some of the directors you've worked with, I mean, you know, he brings a lot to it. He's got a lot of conscience, and what do you learn from a guy like that over the course of like kind of educating yourself around how this is done what would you get what do you bring out of that experience man you just soak up everything you can i mean i'd see a brother from another planet i mean that was also like nowadays they say there's independent uh films but they're just basically like a branch of the same studio right the same creation that yeah we're gonna you're gonna do art films and do it for no money

and then everybody's gonna try to kill each other to get a golden globe but back then they're actually with independent films so i'd seen mate one brother Brothers from Another Planet, and I thought Matewan was an extraordinary film. But Sayles said he learned everything he needed to know about writing from watching Roberto Clemente play baseball. It was power, efficiency, and grace. Also, you know, with these great DPs that would be around, you know, like you could work with, you know, on John's, on Mate One, he was working with Haskell Wexler. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Great guys. It was Bob Richardson who turned out, you know, he's another great, great cinematographer. I had a chance to work with Laszlo Kovacs. Oh, yeah. Those are really the guys, right? They make the difference. Yeah. It was a whole different thing. Yeah.

So, you're in Chicago now? Yeah. You never lived out here? No, I have. I lived in California and New York and had a place in California, an office in Venice, California. But about four or five years ago, I got out of there. And you lived in New York. When did you live in New York?

Late 80s, early 90s. I had a place there. You just keep going back to Chicago, huh? Yeah. Did shit get out of control in New York? When did to Chicago, huh? Yeah. Did shit get out of control in New York? When did it happen, man? Which era are we talking about? What was the first wave of insanity? Do you remember JP's on 88th Street?

No, it's too high. That was too far uptown for me. All right. That was it? uptown for me. Alright. That was it? Yeah. What was it? Booze? Let's see. Back in the 80s? What wasn't there? Yeah.

And now you like you had to reel it in? Yeah. You got some time? Yeah. I know, right? right yeah you feel better oh yeah how you feeling it's weird man like i i actually had a drinking dream the other night i'm 21 years in and uh yeah yeah and i hadn't had one in a long time. It was very subtle. It was just sort of like, I just decided to do it. And that's exactly how it fucking happens when it happens. Right?

You wake up in a cold sweat? Yeah, you wake up like, oh, I fucked it up. Oh, thank God. I blew it. Yeah, I started to reel it in around, you know, 28, 29, 30, because I was like, all right, what am I going to do here? I'm like, am I going to be one of these, like, maintenance junkies and just sort of, like, you know. Yeah, live it.

Is that where I'm going down? Or, like, what road am I going to go down? Yeah. The crossroads. Yeah, and then the only place that was really dangerous for me uh i was very lucky but the only place was dangerous news when i went back to ireland i was like ah this would be a good place to get drunk for a month you had to hide and drink and and be completely supported in that decision well you could always find uh you can always find

yeah yeah they always find those bars right but you can always find uh you can always find yeah yeah they always find those bars right but you can always find it like it's always struck me as weird about that about people about enablers of any kind like you know when when you have somebody who's clearly dying and can't control themselves there's always those dudes who are sort of like need a little more i got some yeah like who the fuck are those guys? Where did they come from? I want to go to Ireland. Did you spend a lot of time in Ireland? I went

back. What do you mean back? Is your family from there? Yeah, I'm Irish. Yeah, both sides of my family are Irish. You can get citizenship. Which I probably should. Dude. Depending on what happens in the next month no shit aren't you thinking about that shit

yes i can't take it man i mean i got and now we're we can barely go anywhere but you can't i love ireland i'm a g are you la are you la in LA, but I'm like, I don't know what it is with Ireland, man. I'm a Jew and I love Ireland. I just, I go there and I'm like, I want to be here. It's all I think about right now because I don't know how this shit's going to go down,

but it's not going to be good no matter how you slice it. And all I'm thinking about right now is like, I kind of want to be out of the country for the, I want to vote and then get out for a month just because I don't know what the fuck is I don't know how this is going to unfold but then there's another part of me that's sort of like maybe you should just stay and watch it from here but I don't know yeah I don't have two minds you know you that um you know the bastards are going to do what they're going to do and we got to do we got to do fuck them right and then you. We got to do what we got to do. Fuck them. Right.

And then you don't want to give them the satisfaction. Of running away? Yeah. I guess. But isn't there a part of you, we're roughly the same age. I mean, I've saved a little money. Is there any crime in stopping someplace nice and just riding it out? No.

Where's that justification? I'm not running running away i'm fucking retiring go fuck yourself yeah yeah no but i'll but also like i i won't feel like i am like i shouldn't have said something like i've you know i've been a pain in the ass and separate i think all the time so i'll be and what and where are you where have you been talking lately? Yeah. I never shut up. That's right. You've gotten into some trouble here and there. So like how, how afraid are you on a day-to-day basis around this shit? I mean, I'm not afraid for myself. Um, right. But, uh, I don't know. Um, when I saw, you know, early on,

I made a movie called, not that this matters, but I made a movie called Max a while ago, and it was about Hitler and modern art and aesthetics and, you know, about how modernism came from, like, World War I. Right. And how Hitler sort of stole from the avant-garde left and used he hated the message of the avant-garde left because it was anti-war coming from world war one yeah but he understood that that art was the new you know politics was

the new art and art and politics were going to be fused right and you see trump doing this sort of same thing he's doing this kind of kitsch futurism he's saying i'm going to make america great and we're going to the future is going to be a return to the past now it's a past that never existed i'm lying everything i say is a lie but you know sure and he's also really good at uh at fascist theater. He's very good at the signing ceremony, the walking. Or the rallies where he compares immigrants, people of color, or people protesting to vermin and cockroaches. And that's very specific, purposeful things. Of course. Yeah, of course. These human beings are pestilence.

Sure. Yeah, it's terrifying. They should be eradicated. So I was never, I guess, maybe just loving everybody from Brecht to all the writers and comedians and filmmakers and musicians that we all love. You don't have to be a genius to know that this shit is real. And the first time he tore a child away from their mother's arms and put them in a cave, this wasn't a reality TV show anymore. This is like real fascism. Right. And it's on a creep it's you know it's a frozen frozen explosion you know it's happening slowly right but you know it's like the you know frog in the water you know you just turn

the turn the water up and the frog doesn't know it's being boiled alive right that's what we are right now yeah it's terrifying and i i don't know like i want and it's sad because of the covid that you know the arts have been sort of kind of neutralized because no one can really do anything you know you would you know it's hard to get things done and to express yourself and in a bigger sense because we're all kind of frozen in this plague zone like like chicago that like the theater scene i i've become friends with tracy letts who's a chicago guy for the most part great guy great theater uh a great actor and a great playwright but like did you ever spend any time with you know with uh down at steppenwolf at all and hanging out with those guys yeah you know i used to um i worked with john malkovich a lot and

so i used to go when he would come back and direct a play or something, I would do that. Hang out with him. He's really my favorite guy to hang out with. He's a trip, right? Is he like, is he always that intense? He's just really, really like a wonderful man. And a great mixture of things you know

he can be incredibly sensitive and compassionate and then he can be you know he you know the character he played

in True West which was Lee he was Lee right or Austin which one's Lee right Lee's the but you know

which he says was a member of his family. And, you know, so he has access to those kinds of these different parts of himself that are that are very contradictory. The Rage River. Yeah. Yeah. But he's such a thoughtful, intelligent man, you know, like he really reads and studies and is a very such a bright person. OK, so there's another good example.

So you read this script like for utopia and it's well-written. Now you get this, how did the, uh, being John Malkovich, how did that unfold for you? I mean, did you get that script and where you were like, Holy shit, what is this? This is going to sound like, um, I hope I don't sound like an asshole on your podcast because, um, I think even talking about yourself is a weird thing to do in this climate.

It just feels slightly obscene, but. We've talked to, we've balanced it out with politics. You're okay. Go ahead. I know. I know. But that script was, I had an agent in Chicago till I was like 24, 25. And then I went with William Morris Agency. And when I went there, I said, you know, come on, you guys have a vault somewhere, right? You guys have the vault of like the, whatever your black book is, like the most unproducible scripts, right?

And they're like, oh, well, no. And then I said, I know you guys have something like where you have like this little box that has the craziest ship you know whatever they call the really i don't know what they call it well i i was i was fishing but i thought they must right well why were you doing why are we asking those questions because you wanted to do something new and weird and wild why were you yeah i wanted to find out where like you know because anything good right most things that are good don't really get can't be comprehended when they first come out okay only time something is good right maybe i mean it's different like with uh you know with richard prior he does a set that's filmed sure sure i get it i get it but you were

like where where are the things that you think are unproducible yeah i said i want the i want this the thing that like cannot be made into a film, the most insane thing. And I kept pressing, and he goes, well, I mean, there's beans down the... I'm like, what? And so I found out, and I found the script, and I read it, and I said, here's the deal. I just want to be first in the door if this ever gets made,

and if that happens, I'll stay with you guys forever. And if not, I'll leave. Because this is fantastic. This is brilliant. Yeah. Because it was the most non-commercial, insane thing. So at that time, did you think it would ever get made? Well, I thought I was very proud of myself

for having found it. So did that start the ball rolling? Other people might've known about it, but I took my own initiative to find something good. So you just attached yourself to this script that wasn't even alive. Really? Oh, Charlie,

I didn't even, Charlie wanted me or knew who I was. So they call him and you're like, not going to believe this, but, uh, uh, who's that wants to do your movie.

And he was, he's been on it for four years. He's been calling us about it for three years or whatever. And luckily enough, Charlie and Spike thought it was a good idea. So I came in and did it. But it was pretty great because John Malkovich called me up and he went, you know, Johnny, you know, there's this script and it's really good and, you know, like I was already doing the script. I don't know why John was calling me.

He goes, and you know, it's about me and, you know, and, you know, it says I'm an asshole, but you know, fuck it. I am an asshole and, you know, I just think'm an asshole, but, you know, fuck it. I am an asshole. And, you know, I just think I go, John, John, stop. I'm doing this.

Great. So and then we started and we started talking about the script. The only things we thought of was. In the script, his friend at the end was Kevin Bacon. You know, when he calls a celebrity friend right and so John and I were talking and we were thinking

you know what like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon of it all whatever you know and we said no Charlie is Malkovich's best friend he had just given the most incendiary And we said, no, Charlie is Malkovich's best friend. He had just given the most incendiary interview. And John just couldn't stop laughing at the thought that the Malkovich and being John Malkovich in his time of existential would call on Charlie.

Yeah. And then so we pitched that idea to charlie and spike and they they they liked it and i think kevin bacon wasn't available or didn't want to do it worked out and then the only other the script is so perfect the only other thing we we added was i thought um i said charlie you know he don't have this puppeteer. He doesn't talk about his work that much. And why, you know, all artists have a justification for why we're failures, right? Sure, I do. So I said, um, I want to have this thing where he talks about his work, that, you know, it frightens people, it's too much for them, you know, it scares them. And wasn't there another guy too? Wasn't there another guy, another puppeteer?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd said, uh, you know, his work is too, too provocative. Yeah. Those two. Yeah. So that was sort of, you kind of came up with that. You guys thought that through. Yeah. Just, I ripped with Charlie a little bit. You know, I just thought it would be good for Craig to sort of give a justification for, you know, what his work means to him.

Did you ever feel like that though, yourself? Did you ever feel like a failure? Yeah. I mean, I, I think that, um, I don't know how you feel about it, but like, I'm not one to talk about my past much. Um, because when I do it, I don't, I probably don't sound particularly coherent. But I always feel like I almost did something once that was good. You feel that now?

Yeah. Like I kind of, I remember I almost did that one thing and it was, it had a pulse. It was pretty good, but. Not quite. I almost, I almost, yeah. that one thing and it was it had a pulse it was pretty good but not quite i almost i almost yeah so that's so you're driven by that kind of like you know you're never quite as good as you think you should be yeah yeah like i feel like i almost did a couple things so you you like to keep a bat around to beat yourself with occasionally no i don't know it's just you like to keep a bat around to beat yourself with occasionally? No, I don't know. It's just, you know, it's a strange thing.

What was the thing? What was the thing that you almost did? What was the closest you came, John? I think, like, I look at it like, you know, if you like baseball, right? If you're if it's three out of ten called pulse, right? If you're if it's 3 out of 10

called pulse, you're hitting 300. You're good. Yeah. And then the rest is just sort of like you're working. But if you're still hitting good, you may line out, you may strike out.

Sure, right. Here's a question for you. Paul Scheer was talking to Danny Trejo on his podcast about Con Air, I guess. What a great guy Danny Trejo is. I worked with him. Do you know that story? When I worked with him, it was hilarious. When did you?

He did an episode of my show of Marin on IFC. he played i put he played a newcomer who had just gotten out of prison and i was playing his sponsor it was crazy but he said this i guess uh sheer was i'm paraphrasing and they were asking him about uh all the all the actors on con air and who was the real badasses were who were the who were the dudes were the who were the real badasses and he said man you don't want to fuck with kuzak you're the guy you're the dudes, who were the real badasses. And he said, man, you don't want to fuck with Cusack. You're the guy. You're the guy he identified as the badass. Now, why would Danny Trejo think that about you?

Are you a brawler? What is your trip? No, the thing is, is Danny Trejo is very tight with Benny the Jet or Kiedez. And Benny the Jet or Kiedez is a 1% of 1% athlete in the world. And he's a kind of a martial arts grandmaster. He started a KetoCon. And he was around the Gracie brothers. He was around.

He was training. He did Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee era. So he was that guy in East LA's he's a he's bass and blackfoot Native American but grew up in East LA yeah fighting and he's a martial arts grandmaster and so when I did say anything where I played a kickboxer I We shot in his gym and then I studied under him for 30 years in martial arts. 30?

I don't know if you remember, there's a scene in Rose Point Blank where I fight a guy in the hallway and then a mini driver comes by and sees me and I kill him with a pen that the guy had given me. There's a fight. There's a fight with Benny Urquidez and that, uh, that's Benny the Jet.

And he was a kickboxing champion, 68 and up. And he had fought all around the world. Um, uh, he'd beaten every Chinese, every Thai, every Japanese people that started schools. They, They built schools to just create a champion to beat Benny. He also did a film, he did a bunch of early films with Jackie Chan.

One's called Meals on Wheels. Another one where it was the first time that the two actors would do the stunts and the fights were like Buster Keaton stuff, really inventive, really comical, but like really violent. And the kicks were the kicks, the headshots were the headshots,

and they were fighting. So I sort of emulated that in the gross point blank with Benny. So I think Danny knew that I was training with Benny. He'd seen me train and he'd seen me spar and I used to go to smokers and do stuff like that. But the good, just to show you that I'm not a complete asshole. When we shot the scene in Gross Point Blank, right? Our other producer said, well, we're going to need two or three days to shoot this. I said, no, no, we'll do three cameras.

No stunt men. Don't worry i would be fine because i'd spark thousands of rounds with benny yeah and i had to they had my i was in a suit right the only reason we had to stop was because i was drenched with sweat and they had to like re-blow dry my hair and then put me in a new suit because i was drenched to the bone at the end of the day, Benny had one trickle of sweat coming down. Yeah. You know, I would train with him and somewhere around Con Air time,

I was as good a weight as I could be at. I was ready to fight all that stuff, 195 pounds. And I'd spar with Benny. But Benny, at first, when you first start sparring with him, he's wearing gloves, but you can't touch him. And then after a few years, if you get him to wear a mouth guard, that means you've gotten to another level. And a few years later, I finally got him to wear headgear.

And I remember we'd sparred thousands of rounds, and he'd kick the shit out of me forever. But at one point, I slipped, and I hit him with the best right hand I can hit him with, like Joe Frazier's left hook that dropped Ali. That was the best I had. It was the perfect punch. And I remember hitting him, and he just looked at me and he smiled and his eyes got wide it's like that was great i could have i felt that all the way down and i was like oh my god this guy's going to love him i felt it all the way down he was so he was so happy for me he's been a very special person in my life i I trained with him for, for 30 years.

Yeah. Yeah. He's in LA. I'm just not, I'm not in LA, but, uh, I had opportunity to take him.

I did this. I got a phone call to go do this Jackie Chan movie. Um, when they say, do you want to go do a martial arts movie in, in China with Jackie Chan in the Gobi Desert. I was like, what kind of lunatic adventurer would pass that up? Of course, yeah, I'm going to go do that.

And so I brought Benny out and we choreographed the scenes with Jackie. So it was kind of full circle. Oh, that's nice. Jackie had started out with Benny. I did my fight in Gross Boy Blank to honor Jackie and Benny. And then we did another fight five know five years ago with them so so I think Danny might have been referring to that

yeah yeah oh okay that makes sense we both dipped into do you still keep in shape? yeah although I don't spar as much because it hurts right yeah we get old how often do you take jobs that are just sort of like fuck it I want to go to that. And like, how often do you take jobs that are just sort of like, fuck it,

I want to go to that place and hang out? How often do you do, is that a reason? You know, sometimes you take whatever jobs you can get. If you can get a great job,

you take it. Right. And sometimes you take a lot of money and then you use that to go do something else. You keep working. Keep working. But working, but also,

the Jackie, there's not that many, but if there's some, you know, if it's such a crazy adventure like that, you just have to do it. Sure, man. And you're working with guys you respect and guys you have a good time with, and that's like, what's better than that? Yeah, and also, over in China, Jackie Chan's

kind of like, you know, he's crossed between like Elvis, Charlie kind of like, you know, he's crossed between like Elvis, Charlie Chaplin, and you know, I don't know, Evil Knievel or something. Yeah, same with Trejo in my old neighborhood in Highland Park. We were driving around shooting in Highland Park, and there were people coming, kids

coming to the windows going, Machete! Machete! It's crazy, man. Danny's literally one of the sweetest warmest human beings that that has ever ever been around for sure solid guy too you know like a real uh recovery wizard you know decent human being shows up for people you know i i liked working with him i wish i'd spent more time with with him. I've never really interviewed him because I think he's one of those guys where as much as I like him, he tells his story probably every week

at the Secret Society, right? So it's a polished kind of process. And I wouldn't mind doing it. Maybe I will. Maybe I will. But it was good talking to you, man. Yeah, you too, man. Thanks for having me. What have you been doing with your time during this fucking

quarantine business? Playing the guitar? Playing the guitar. I've been reading a lot, but also just like I've been watching a lot of old movies. Yeah, like I went on a deep dive on Graham Greene. Yeah, what was that about?

Because it's like I'm doing the Criterion collection and I just watched the Heartbreak Kid again with Grodin the other day. But I guess the Graham Greene, Graham Greene, did he write the third man or he didn't? Yeah, no, no. I think it was, yeah.

I think he wrote that. I think he was a story or four. But yeah, I think it's just it was just interesting because it's like every character starts out already totally exhausted. They totally know the score and they totally know that both communism and capitalism have betrayed everything that they set out to do and that it's a complete disaster and they're just trying to survive and so you're preparing no no i just yeah i guess i just thought it's interesting like even in the 70s and 80s uh that that was there and now you know we we live in a climate where the democrats um and the republicans that are basically a death cult at this point um literally are they pretend like they haven't seen those ken burns documentaries yeah

i was like well you know like like all the mainstream guys are on that doris kearns good one and john meacham right the fdr the new deal stuff like that ken burns documentary you can't pretend like you haven't seen that right right like i get people health care right gotta get the wage yep you know anyway i just what's that what was your favorite one so far the movie i watched this cool richard burton one called coming in from the cold that That was good? I thought so. I got to watch some of those. I don't know. I don't watch a lot of British stuff. I watched, I just watched that Bob Hoskins movie,

The Long Good Friday, that modern gangster pic. Because I interviewed Helen Mirren, and I was just like, I'd watch that one. I saw it at one of those theaters we were talking about when I was in high school. It premiered in one of the art theaters like the waverly place or like yeah it was called don poncho's it was in albuquerque right across from the university and we went to see long good friday and i remember it just

blew my fucking it was one of those big halls and the ceiling had like little stars no little one it was a little double feature revival theater across from the university it's a laundromat now but it was great it was great to re-watch it so I'm going to check out some of

that Graham Green stuff but I'm glad you're holding up and I enjoyed the show and it was great talking to you man

alright brother alright take it easy pal bye bye that was me and John Cusack and now I will play music for you. Boomer lives. Monkey lives.

Bafonda lives. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. look or a new space. Experience the Cozy difference with furniture that grows with you, delivered to your door quickly and for free. Assembly is a breeze, setting you up for years

of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture.