WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1174 - Rhea Seehorn

Episode Date: November 12, 2020

Better Call Saul features characters who are not honest about their lives and identities, so it's appropriate that one of the show's stars, Rhea Seehorn, suffers from imposter syndrome in real life. Rhea and Marc compare notes on why they both feel insecure and inadequate despite their natural talents, such as Rhea's skills at painting, sculpting and building. They also talk about her father's secretive life in the Naval Intelligence Services, the perils of pilot season, and why Bob Odenkirk is so hard on himself. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fuck tuplets? Are there any of those? Any what the fuck tuplets are there any of those any what the fuck tuplets out there i choose to obsess on the little things that's how i ground myself spiritually

the relief was short-lived it's still there i think there's a bedrock of relief about what transpired in the national election here in the united States of America. But now, not surprisingly, we have to deal with whatever the fuck this goddamn manic, narcissistic, compulsive, delusional fuck is going to put out there in the next couple months. I'm eating crappy. I'm festering. I'm getting obsessed with the little things. The cast iron obsession has reignited. And that's not great.

I'm not excited about that. But this is the way I've always been. What is your spiritual discipline? I'll tell you. I find something to get obsessed with, something specific, whether it be learning how to do something on a guitar, a particular band whose records I need, cast irons, another one, fucked up a cast iron pan. So now that could like, that's a whole rabbit hole that I've been down. I don't know if I need it. I could just buy another pan.

But you have this time invested. Like, look at the seasoning I put on it. But it's like it's fucking gunk. And it's fucked up. You got to start over. How do I get the gunk off? I don't know. I scraped some of it off, and it didn't all come off.

And then I re-seasoned it, so I sealed some of the gunk in. Now it's got this texture to it. So now I'm trying to decide, you you know do I commit to this pan this $25 lodge cast iron pan to fucking break my brain cause me frustration give me a goal are there bigger goals

yes I'd like to help out did I mention that Ray Sehorne is on the show Ray Sehorne the lovely Ray Sehorne she plays Kim Wexler on Better Call Saul. We talked before the election. It was a lovely talk. I'm trying not to freak out. Just got to focus on that pan. But is it cognitive dissonance? If I know the reality, yet I'm choosing to focus on my life and choosing to

focus on what I can do within that life. And all lives are limited now because reality is limited because there's a fucking plague running rampant on the planet, but insanely rampant in this country. No one seems to give a fuck really we've got a president quickly eating himself to death and feeding a fucking delusion to sort of 80 90 percent of his followers that somehow the election was rigged with no proof whatsoever believe what we believe is real despite evidence of the contrary break your fucking brains forever by taking big heaping shitty spoonfuls of cognitive dissonance provided for you by this administration fuck it man i get up i put my shoes on i put my pants on i dress like a day is happening

and i do shit. I do this. Got Ray Sehorne. He's going to talk to you. I'm going to talk to her today. I got the Bowie movie coming out. That's the other thing. It's fucking eating me a little bit. It's like I made this Bowie movie.

Stardust, it's called, with Johnny Flynn. I play a music publicist named Ron Oberman. Johnny plays David. It's not a biopic. It's a small slice of David Bowie's life. But this weird pushback that this idea that this movie has to be garbage without seeing it or knowing anything about it because the family didn't sign off on providing or allowing songs to be used. That it was against David Bowie's wishes.

David Bowie was an artist. He created art for the public sphere. For decades and decades, David Bowie has sought and has been and made himself available to be reckoned with as a fucking artist of the highest degree on many levels you know you can write books about bowie you can criticize or or appreciate his his music his acting all of it there's oodles and oodles of articles written pictures drawn books written it's open for interpretation so the idea that the they didn't want to sign off on the rights

to music for the film fine it gave our director gabriel range more freedom but the truth is every artist seeks interpretation this is an interpretation of a story based on a true story that happened to david bowie that was done with nothing but love for the guy yet the weird sort of contempt prior to investigation you know holding this line that you can't make an interpretive piece of art about one of the biggest artists of the 20th century fucking grow up don't go see the movie then Jesus Christ why is the man angry

I'm not angry I've just had enough of some things alright it's different Ray Sehorne is here All right? It's different. Ray Sehorne is here. You can watch episodes of Better Call Saul on AMC.com or at the AMC app. And again, I need to preface this by saying we talked before the election.

This is me and Ray Sehorne. know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th

exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Glove. You holding up okay? You at home? I'm in my garage where I hide and make things. What do you make in the garage? piece of furniture with built-in shelves and a desk to hold all of my different supplies to do

things, whether it's pretend that I'm going to write a script one day or a ton of art supplies, a lot of art supplies here. I sculpt and paint. Just got back to oil painting thanks to the pandemic. Thanks, pandemic. Really? So is this is this structure for the garage? This structure was I have only rented in Los Angeles. And this structure was built for my last place. And actually, it comes apart. It has coming from New York and DC and being only a renter my whole life. Everything I do has to make minimal wall damage um so I built it to it interlocks in pieces wow so I mean you have a a future in furniture design and I had a good time doing it yeah one of my first day jobs in in DC I flat out lied to someone when I was asked to help

I went to school for art and understand color design and composition and stuff but had not done any carpentry or craftsman stuff and I was dating this guy who was looking for someone to decorate his his new

basement apartment in DC and I completely lied and so that I had done it before I spent so many days at Home Depot in the front where they have all the books. And it was like early Barnes and Noble style, just sitting down and reading all of them and not paying anything. And were you successful in pulling off your scam as a phony decorator? Yeah. It took like two and a half weeks to do something that I'm pretty sure is supposed to take two days. So wait, did you grow up in D.C.? No. No, but I was there for a huge chunk of my budding adult life. I was born in Norfolk, moved to Japan immediately, then Arizona, then Virginia Beach. And then I went to school at George Mason and I did theater for 12 years in Washington, D.C.

before moving to New York. Do you remember Japan? I do. Even though I was young, do you, some people act like they have crystal clear memories and other people have none. I have a couple memories from like age two to five.

I have one of being hit in the face with a can. I don't know why I'm laughing at that. I think I thought the next thing you were going to say, and then I've never remembered anything again. But I was very young for that. I think I have a couple of memories, but they're just like bits and pieces. Why did you go to Japan?

We were civilian, but my dad was a naval intelligence agent. What does that mean? He was NIS. NIS. NIS, you mean like the TV show? Yeah, now it's NCIS, but at that time it was NIS, yes. Okay.

He was an agent for 33 years. I think the last five, he was a superior advisor, not in the field, but he was in the field when I was younger. But that's a civilian gig? I guess so. I mean, he was ROTC for Army and went to Virginia Tech and then was recruited as a Ranger and then went to Virginia Tech and then was recruited as a ranger and then went to Vietnam.

Really? And switched to, by the time he was in Vietnam, he was doing intelligence work and he was in the Tet Offensive. Holy shit. And after that, there's not a lot of stories that I would hear.

But we definitely moved, like we moved to Virginia for the Walker spy family. You remember that 1980s crazy cuckoo case yeah i kind of do what was that about that was right right like yeah they were it was like two brothers and the one of the brothers one was navy one was cia the wife was kind of involved they sold schematics to um navy ships and like all the way to prison said like i didn't get anybody killed this isn't you know i don't but they were selling schematics that show where the weak points are on the ships like

if you were to bomb them here's how to take it down to where to russia yeah yeah i kind of do remember that so your dad was on that case yeah but like in terms of like his like he was an army ranger that went into intelligence and i mean he sounds like a pretty so he was in the forces he's an impressive guy he was in the army he was but he was not enlisted and i know i'm gonna get some of the terminology wrong he was not enlisted in the navy and not and we were civilian by the time he was an agent so no uh so you're telling me that all the information you have about his experience in Vietnam you just gave me? I have a few more things, but they're as secretive as my animated show.

You mean if you tell me that you might have to kill me? That kind of thing? You know, he died when I was 18. Oh oh he passed away when you were 18 he passed away and so all i was going to say is i am aware now i'm i'm hyper aware now that uh i i would that we mythologize the dead and uh sometimes and um so some of my memories are probably conflated with uh the lore of him and other people's tales and other agents that would say stuff about him. Movies, probably not so much. His own stories were weird enough.

Yeah, yeah, I bet. And at the end, he was pretty paranoid. And unfortunately, he died from alcoholism. So I'm not entirely sure of the stories towards the end, what were true and what were muddied. Oh, he had gotten himself, his brain had started to go? Yeah. He was only 52, so it wasn't dementia.

It was alcohol. That's sad. Yeah. And your mom? She's awesome. She's super funny. Both my parents, very, very funny, great storytellers. Was she in the, what did she do?

She was a paralegal and different high-level assistant and secretarial and administrative quality control stuff for the government. Also a civilian for many, many years and retired recently. But she's still an active Avon lady. And she does have new customers. Oh, good. That's important. America needs them. I'm glad. Thank her for her service.

Listen, she's 77 and still, like, loves to get her little lipstick samples out. And I love it. Oh, that's hilarious. Where does she live? Like, Florida? She's in Chesapeake. Oh, okay. So I stepped up.

Oh, so when your old man died, were they together? They were not, and there was no love lost. There was not a lot of tears shed from her at the funeral. No, they were no. Were your parents, are your parents around? Where are your parents? They are. They are.

They're around. They're not, they are, they're around. They're not together. No, they're not together. And my mother's with a lunatic down in Florida. My father's with a saint in Albuquerque. And, uh,

my mom's like 70 something. And my dad's like 81 or 82. And they're, they're kind of hanging in. Are they being good about quarantine? Yes. I mean, I don't know if my dad's wife is per

se. It seems that she may be going to church, but my mom and her boyfriend are definitely being good and my dad doesn't go out anyways. Okay. They're being safe. They're okay right now, you know? Good. But how about your mom? My mom is very similar to the moms I'm hearing about from a couple of friends and some dads. Yeah. It's not just assigned to her age bracket either. There's some adults, my peers in my life, people have a different definition for what they think is playing safe. And it's a pretty big range. I find a lot of leeway.

Yeah. Like my mom says stuff like I'm not, I'm not even, I'm not even going out. I'm, I'm complete. I, I literally go to like Walmart twice a week and maybe three or four grocery

stores. And that's it. I'm like, why are you going to five shopping? She lives with just her husband, and as many people from that generation do, she has a full bunker of food, the second freezer, the second fridge.

She could live, and she does this on purpose, for 60 days out of her garage second kitchen. So I'm like, well, you're only cooking for you and can you know what do you what's going on there um well ray if i have coupons and let's say one grocery store has beans on sale and the other grocery store has bread on sale and the other one has green beans i have to go to all three i'm just like can you please save 13 cents and your lungs? She still needs to have her hobbies. And, you know, chasing coupons.

That is what it is. Not willing to give it up. Yes. Yes. And she also, she talks to everyone. She knows everybody at Walmart. And so I think it's partially that she just needs to go see what Fran's doing. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. Like, I know that's like, it's dangerous to some degree, but she's wearing a mask. She is. She is. And she wears one glove to grocery shop and keeps the other one behind her back.

She's like, so I don't waste two gloves. My gloves are going to last twice as long. I think you got it. I think you have to do calculated risks to maintain your sanity. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I do. I do.

Honestly, to admit, though, I mean, like, I'll go to three supermarkets. Basically, I'll go to I go to Ralph's down the street. I go to Whole Foods and I now go to Fish King. You know, what do you mean? Why? Well, I mean, just because it's like helpful because if i have a coupon yeah if i have a coupon no i i go to ralph's for the watermelon and a quick and if i need some organic veggies i'll

go there quickly in and out quick whole foods there's a couple of things that I stock up on, but I'm going there less and less because there's just a tornado of fucking activity with the people that buy shit for other people at Whole Foods. So you never know what day you're going to be caught up in this whirlwind of weirdos with these tinfoil bags running around.

You're talking about people that are working for Postmates and Instacart, not the people that volunteer to go buy food. I don't know if they work for Amazon or what. No, no, no. It's You're talking about people that are working for Postmates and Instacart, not the people that volunteer to go buy things. Right. I don't know who they work for. I don't know if they work for Amazon or what. No, no, no. Yeah, right. It's a service.

Right. And I've also got, now I've got like an N95 mask and a face shield that I will wear. Wow. Sure, sure. That's the guy. Yeah, that's who I am. So in order for me to go out and use my coupons, I will wear a space helmet because I don't want to change my life. I only recently had this couple that are best friends of mine and my fiance's over.

And we did the whole. But it was just four of us total at a picnic table that's eight feet long. And one couple on one end and we're on the other end and socially distance and the whole thing. And we ordered food in and ate outside. And it was nice. It was really nice to see someone in person. But then someone else had a going away party for somebody and has a huge, enormous backyard. Mine's like postage stamp size. has a huge, enormous backyard. Mine's like postage stamp size, but this person had a huge,

huge yard. And there were like eight adults all sitting at a very large outside table. And I freaked out. I thought I would be fine. And I went and I freaked out to the point where I had to apologize. I had to like text and call people to apologize the next day because I didn't understand what was going on and instead kept just drifting away to other areas where there were less it was like a bad game as soon as three people started to talk to me I would move to the cluster of two and then move to the cluster of one it's horrible feeling it was really strong yeah I was just wildly uncomfortable but I was so curious as to why I couldn't just say it, like why I felt embarrassed to just say, you know, I think I made a mistake. I think I think I'm not coming and I'm going to go.

Yeah, right. Because I can't handle it. I think a part of me wanted to be OK. Yeah, me too. There's a part of you there. It's weird that there's this moment where where it's like, why am I the one feeling shame? I'm the one scared and doing the right thing. Yeah.

I don't know what the fuck that is. Well, I mean, everybody was lovely when I said sorry. They were like, no, no, no. You got to do exactly only what you're comfortable with. And the other thing is I'm so terrified. I don't want to be a hypocrite, but I'm also terrified of looking. I have massive imposter syndrome anyway in my whole life. That's just like, I'm always not sure like,

is this who I really am or am I secretly awful? And it's all a sham that I pretend that I'm not an absolute terrible person. And so I'll see pictures on the news of people having massive parties or clustering on the beach. And I'm like, God damn it, don't they realize? And then the second I even have two people

in my backyard I'm like oh I'm one of those people one of those people I have to stop I'm on the news yeah we should all be in water is everybody an above ground pool with 20 other people yeah exactly I act like the helicopters are going to break up my yard party with three people so like what do you like? Is that a real thing? What is imposter syndrome? Do I have it? You have to know.

I remember listening to you on our great, you had a great NPR interview where you were talking about that. You're sort of regular, like idling place is, is discomfort. Right? No, no, I do. I do live. But like the imposter syndrome is not, it's not just about being a, no, I do. That's just kind of where you live. But like the imposter syndrome, it's not just about being a fraud

in what you do creatively or for a job. It's literally like no one sees that I'm a monster. I think so. I mean, I'm sure some people have it just in their job, but yeah, this idea of... You don't match your outsides. what's really inside of you is this this fragile awful thing but everybody thinks you're something else yeah you you know especially

if you if you get to a place where um people perceive you as added value in the room be it your skill as an actor or a writer or interviewer, or God help you as a human, then it makes me back up even further and go, oh, whoo, fooled them. Really got them fooled. Yeah.

It's good. I am one scene away from being found out. I'm glad that, that for most of my life, I was never considered added value. I would say, I would say for about 40 years of my life, added value was not on my resume. It was the opposite. Like, let's rethink the Marin invitation.

But see, that's where my head is, but people will tell you otherwise and the the the more intelligent and more lovely the the people which you at this point in your life and for for years now are surrounded by and have been surrounded by um very intelligent lovely people who seem to really know what they're doing so are they idiots that they've invited you to join the project no but there's that dialogue in your head i I get it. I get it. But you know what that I've also realized, though, like in terms of like why I wasn't successful for a long time or whatever, is that, you know, they're only going to understand the part of you that you're making available that they can use. So on some level, I mean, there's a truth to it, like because for years people would try to box me in like, oh, you're the cranky guy. You're this guy.

You're this guy. And I'm like, I'm much broader than this. And a lot of it's completely- I have a lot of levels of cranky. Right. A lot of it's completely out of control and unattractive. But you behave in relation to your expectation, their expectations of you, these particular people.

But a lot of them don't know you really. Right. Right. Right. And it's a certain amount of ego to even think that they care. Why do they they don't even know that you cry in the corner late at night. No one gets it. It's our job to be professional.

We can't lean on them as if they're our lost parent. Right. Exactly. And don't get me wrong. As if they're our lost parent. Right? Exactly. And don't get me wrong.

I am not someone that shows up to acting work, and I don't get that you are either, and treating it like therapy. That's not me at work. No, I mean, I'm just- For me, it's a freaking break from my real thoughts. I do what we're doing right now for therapy. I do stand-up for therapy. Acting, I'm just surprised anyone buys it. I mean, it's like, I wasn't an actor. It came so much later. I just like, you know, I learned to listen and I can show up and turn things off in my personality.

But, you know, acting is like it's definitely not therapy. When did you start? When's the first time you did acting like that? You would not consider your stand up. Oh, I mean, you didn't like you weren't doing like a shtick. consider your stand-up oh i mean you didn't like you weren't doing like a shtick you were actually acting in a scene i guess i i guess almost famous was probably that little bit i did in there but i never even had an agent forever i didn't know i don't even know if i was represented i just realized early on that in terms of what comics were available for which was like one or two line parts in movies or sitcom roles you know there, there's really people that, you know, I didn't give a fuck about one or two line parts.

It was just silly. You go in for these things and you're like, it's coming from the sky. You know, like, what is that? Thank you. You know. So. But then like.

Did you get that part? No, I should have. Thank you. That's some shit. uh but then there's these sitcom parts where it's just like there were guys better than me at this i don't want to do this like i just i was cast in a movie recently to play this sort of beat up like you know cheesy lawyer guy and they put it was in two scenes and it was in new york i'm like you could hire a guy that's really this guy wait so i just I just, you know what I mean?

So like, and I felt bad to take, even going, you know, making myself available to take work away from actors on that level because I was really fundamentally a comic. I always wanted to act, but I didn't pursue it. I just didn't because I was not confident enough. And I just always assumed that in the TV world, there were people better than me doing it, which is true. I can't say say that's not an immovable object no no no no no I mean I've

gotten better obviously I'm okay now but I'm still but now it's because I got nothing to lose and I don't give a fuck you know I haven't seen glow my apologies but I have seen you in sort of trust and you're amazing oh yeah you're amazing and I love the film. I love Lynn. Oh, thank you so much. I met you and Lynn for the first time together at the Spirit Awards. She loved you. I mean, she would like, you know, she would like, you know, we'd watch Saul and she'd be like, I got to do something with her. It was like she really wanted to do something with you.

I love it. I know. So sad. My condolences to you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I wrote her after I saw, I was very late to Your Sister's Sister, and I watched it. And Sword of Trust was just coming out. And I followed her

on Twitter. And she was tweeting something about Sword of Trust coming out. And I wrote, oh, my God, your work's amazing. I'm so excited. I can't wait to see it. And she ended up, amazing. I'm so excited. I can't wait to see it. And she ended up, I forget if it was a DM right away or it was a regular tweet, but she started talking about Saul and I was so excited that

she watches it because her proclivity for finding the smallest intimacies in scenes and coming at storytelling from the character, from a character base instead of a plot base.

Not that there isn't plot in her movies, but it's like, that's the end always. It was so beautiful. And it's something that I strive for in the show I'm doing now. And then we immediately were like, we have to do something together. We have to, we have to, we have to do something together we have to we have to we have to then the pandemic hit and uh yeah i have some i have some lovely messages from her when

she would watch episodes of soul she wrote me once she was like i just burst into tears yeah yeah yeah yeah i think i was sitting i think i was sitting there when that happened so but like you know in terms of acting with you, like it seems like you have a lot of other interests. You're painting, you're doing things, you're building. Yeah, I have to

because of what's going on right now. I'm quite restless playing myself. Right, but you like it. Did you come out, like was acting always the thing or were you just like a generally expressive person that ended up you know doing the acting I mean was there another plan yeah well my my much to

my parents chagrin my backup plan was to be a painter which is not a very lucrative pursuit either but um at one point it was flipped growing up in uh mostly in Virginia Beach, by the time I started to think about what I wanted to do. Oh, I forgot to ask you real quick. I forgot to ask you about Japan. What do you remember? Oh, I remember being in a Quonset hut at first. And my mom really getting aggravated that my dad wasn't pushing. We were supposed to get a house in a regular civilian neighborhood instead of

stay in a Quonset hut. And, and I think he was dragging his feet. And I remember playing Barbies in my room and my mom coming in extremely calmly and saying, girl, cause I have, I have one sister, girls, pick up all your stuff. Cause that house is on fire. We're going to, we're going we're gonna wait outside and i was like what and she was super calm and um we waited in the street and uh like and she had a bag packed already and stuff and i've never asked her about it but uh i'm pretty it was a pizza box that was in the oven and the oven got turned on anyway we moved to a house um

immediately and what else i remember feeling my first earthquake huge oh yeah i remember feeling that in alaska when i was like i was probably seven how old were you in japan really it was two to five but i totally remember it what a bizarre sensation it's the worst it's still a bizarre sensation absolutely um yeah it's like it's it's it's literally your world shaking and the only time that that's not a figurative statement you're just like what yeah it's like yeah it's a real brain fucker you're like there's no there's no stability anywhere exactly and the moment before you register that that's what's happening yeah is also super weird that like which has happened to me now in California, too, where you're like, am I? Did something happen to my brain? Oh, it's an earthquake. Like that little second before.

So it's so wrong. There's a thing in traditional Japanese cultures that when you go to visit a man's house and you're trying to pay respect to his position, and in this situation it would be my dad, and businessmen were coming over, you are supposed to give the most lavish gift you can to only the eldest daughter. I am the youngest of two, and I used to scream bloody murder. My sister has beautiful presence. You got nothing. I got nothing. No. And I remember Bonadori festivals and that's about it. It's a beautiful place.

Yeah. I'd like to go there. So like, how did you, you got out from under the curse of having an alcoholic parent without getting alcoholism? Well, that's a deep question. I don't consider myself an alcoholic, but I do pay a lot of attention to when I drink and why. And I'm trying to make sure, I am trying to make sure I pay attention to that

because I've never drank like my dad ever in my life. And he wasn't falling down. My dad was high, high functioning alcoholic. Sure, sure. Who can wait till the second you're off work and all of this, but definitely drank every day. Definitely his most irritable is five to seven before he can get the first drink and all of that stuff.

And I have never drank like that, but I pay more attention to, I have had depression problems and anxiety problems most of my whole life and, um, have been on and off medications for those. And when I'm not on them, I try to be very acutely aware of like, I'm having three drinks instead of two. You don't need that third one. Right.

Right. So you have to kind of self, self police yourself because yeah, I, yeah, I have anxiety issues myself and I have, I don't know if I've, you know, I, you know, I've really thought about it a lot. But I don't think that what I've had is depression.

I think it's more, it's a higher level of anxiety that manifests itself in dread. So, like, I'm not like I can't get out of bed guy. You know, I don't get no uh that no probably of only very short periods of my life that were always attached to an actual thing that happened like you know a death or something where it's appropriate behavior for a while until you have to put the pants on but um no yeah that's good me either no but they but you know depression anxiety and dread and catastrophic thinking um oh yeah and all that that is i've been told i don't know like a type of depression depending on like oh really in your life so yes i'm with you there's not there hasn't been a lot of like and if i have a job i

will i don't think yeah busy's good there has never been yeah but that's a little bit of a problem it's like as soon as stuff is still like right now right um but I don't take that stuff to work yeah right that's why I am painting and I'm trying to write and um oh yeah you're writing paint sculpt yeah

yeah are you writing a lot now no I'm not fucking writing anything everything when like I it's just like, there's like this weird thing where like when Lynn passed away, I mean, it's been almost four months where like that kind of, I know, but I know,

but it shattered everything. But the thing is like, there's parties that are like, I should keep a journal about this. And I'm like, I can't do it. And then I was like, sort of wondering like,

should I pressure myself to write? And I'm like, don't do fucking anything, dude. Just fucking do it. you gotta do the deal like what do you so I haven't really been and because there's no stand up really I'm not really making notes compulsively but it's starting to come back a little bit you know like in terms of like you know having a little freedom from the you know daily you know quicksand of grief but like but like you know I'm a little freedom from the, you know, daily, you know, quicksand of grief, but like, but like, you know, I'm starting to be okay. Yeah. And maybe I'll start writing. What are you writing? I'm trying to write a script. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm so hamming and hawing because I am surrounded by so many brilliant writers in my life that I get very nauseous trying to say like, I'm writing a script. I've been asked to help people with scripts and take a look at like character voice or repeated beats and a lot of that stuff for a really, really long time. Because in theater, I was doing almost all new play development where you work with the writer to flesh out the play or work on a new draft.

And so, yeah. And so I really, really love writers. And I really love the relationship of interpreting their words and figuring out how to highlight their voice instead of make it my voice. Interesting. So that is kind of making me think. I wrote a short that I co-directed that was part of a trilogy

that was all about in praise of quitting, that I think people should embrace quitting things more. Yeah, absolutely. And then, yeah, I'm trying to write another one um and i'm also trying to write down just some essays like short essays um it's good to you know what's interesting about writing which i because i hate writing i fucking hate it do you um yeah and i've written books hate it uh but the one thing i know about it is that when you get going, you will learn things about yourself.

Like you will put things together differently than you would have thought you would. Like there is an element of discovery to even writing about like an essay or about yourself, a memoir. Like all of a sudden it's like, wow, that's exactly what I, what it is. But I never knew it that, you know, there is, I like that part of it of it but it's uh it takes too long to get there I can't fucking deal were you writing more prose before you started writing stand-up or were you writing your stand-up act first I mean I I usually work through most of my stuff on stage first through improvisation and then kind of it becomes something over time I hammer it I write outlines write ideas. I write like a lot of different

one line things that aren't necessarily stand up poetic things, little things like, yeah, I write, I used to write that kind of stuff constantly, but it's just an active brain. And eventually things that would make it in would just make it in over repetition. It was not, I'm not that. Did you always feel like what you were writing when you started writing? Were you, did it immediately feel like, oh, I think I have I think I'm value added. I mean, did did it all feel like I think this is a niche where where I can contribute this? This is what it is worthwhile for me to write. No, I always think that like this is like this is a waste of time.

No one's going to read this. There's no real money in it and it'll change nothing okay all right you should you should do one of those commencement speeches that was beautiful i have done that i did i did that at this podcast festival where i was a keynote speaker and it was such it was all a racket and once I realized that it was a festival put together by old radio hacks who were just trying to sell people on an entrepreneurial fucking you know teaching weekend to you know bilk people out of money you know to think that they that podcast is some great business idea I got up in front of all these people I said look man it's probably not going to work out.

It's very hard to get people to listen to your thing. It was hilarious. So anyways. But I mean, that's not untrue. The times that I've been asked to mentor or coach actors, young actors, actor wannabes, whatever, the majority of the time, or even if I just coach a single person in an audition, which I do from time to time, the majority of the time when someone wants to ask me something about the business, they actually want to know how to get a TV show,

how to work with Vince Gilligan and Peter Kuhl. Before this, it was how to get in a sitcom. And I know this is... Yeah, they want a little... What are the steps? Do you have it written down? They want to be famous. And even if it's not about fame,

their idea of success is an extremely narrow definition of it. Because people... And you'll hear it even when people say phrases like um when you made it or is this the big thing that you like when you knew you made it well i mean the first time i did a play at um dcac a small theater in adams morgan which was my first theater production that had zero to do with college it was not an academic. It was not a teacher making a phone call. I showed up in my backpack and I read lines and I got a part. $5, no pay for rehearsal, $5 a show as a non-equity performance. And multiple times we could not get, there's, it wasn't equity house, but I was a non-union performer performing there. And there's an equity rule that if there are more people on stage than in the audience,

the cast can elect to not go on, to not do the play. It was only a two-hander, and we still had to have that vote many nights. And I performed not well. It was very, very early on in my career. But I performed my heart out for solo people all the time. early on in my career, but I perform my heart out for solo people all the time. And I bring all that up to say, like, to me, that was making it. And even if there hadn't been a play to decide that I want to not go to the party that everyone's going to, because I love reading and rereading and rereading and rereading a script and a scene and breaking it down and trying to figure out why this person behaves the way they

do. And everything that, everything that's going on internally while the external is happening is endlessly fascinating to me and still is. And I try to tell these actors that is actually the majority of what being an actress, much like being a writer. It's not book signings. Even if you're wildly famous, you're mostly alone writing. Right, right. And I love to be on set.

And I couldn't be more grateful for the best part of my career and some of the best people reading and memorizing and trying to figure out the umpteenth different version of that line and how to say it. And then, as you well know, how to then let all of that homework go and just be present when you get to somehow just be there. You love the craft, right? Right. You love the craft, right? So like for me with standup, like there was no choice in my mind or in my heart as to what I was going to do. And it had nothing to do with making a living really. You know, it was like that. This was my, you know, this chose me to, this is how I was chosen to do this. I don't know what chose me, but, but there is a generation of people. And I guess there always has been that just think like, well, I just need to apply my ambition to this set of steps that will enable me to be a success monetarily and fame-wise. So help me with my ambition, please. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

And that's not creativity. That's not passion. That's not, it's just there. And I see it all the time, man. You know, some see it all the time man you know some people it's just sort of like they some people are better at hiding it than others and there's nothing wrong with some ambition but if that's all that's driving you it's a little disconcerting i think so i think so now are you do you feel like you're ambitious enough no see i don't i don't either and i'm but i'm good i just want to make a living and have health insurance. I'm, you know, I just, you know, and like, I've, you know, it happens so late in the game for me.

Like, I'm happy that I can save some money. I have health insurance for what it's worth until the health insurance that we have goes broke because no one's working. And, uh, you know, but like, and, and I'm, you know, I can kind of eat at any restaurant that I want to when there's places to eat. So that's good. You know? Yeah.

I mean, I wasn't like, I'm not a guy that's sort of like, I need more. I need to win. I need another house. And you haven't had a day job in how long? I mean, that's my other problem. Since 1988. I'm like, yeah. 88.

Mine's 94. But there were some lean fucking times, man. Yeah, there was. I mean, I didn't have a day job, but I wasn't living large. Yeah. No, believe me.

I, every girl just like when I first got a sitcom and I came out here and it was ABC and you know, you make good money, but I also had spent all, I had no savings and was broke by the time I got here. So I wanted to save it all. Number one,

because you hear all the stories that like, well, what if the pilot doesn't get picked up? Don't be that person that goes and buys a car. savings and was broke by the time I got here. So I wanted to save it all. Number one, because you hear all the stories that like, well, what if the pilot doesn't get picked up? Don't be that person that goes and buys a car. Right. I saw that happen so many times. So did I. It's a real story. And I also, you know, and this is, it's a version of the imposter syndrome, but it's actually more the catastrophic thinking that we're talking about. There's always a part of me that thinks any Monday you might be in a cardboard box. This might all go up in smoke. And so it's about constantly saving money. But in reality, it really is because I don't want, I had some lean times too. And I was like, I don't want to wait tables and God love anybody that can do that, but I'm purposely saving every penny and belaboring whether I should get new shoes at Marshall's because the old ones are fine

because I don't want to have to take a day job, not because I'm above it, but because I want to spend that time always constantly towards the next acting job and the next creative thing yeah i've got the same brain like i it takes me a lot to like spend money but like i'm getting a little better at it because like the world is ending so i'm like fuck it i'm trying because i'm kind of like i think it's weird that i don't own anything like it used to be this like romantic idea i didn't have credit cards for a really long time because i watched people in debt coming straight out of college and um my dad's life insurance is what my dad didn't leave me money he didn't have money and and um neither did my i'm

not saying they're poor but there was no like here's a bunch of money to now take care of yourself so i used his life insurance policy to pay for my college in cash and was done. So no student loans or any of that. Oh, that's great. Yeah. I mean, huge, massive gift. I would have rather had him, but I think he'd be happy that that's what I spent it on. And so I'm coming out of college and I was like, I'm not having any debt.

I keep watching all these people sink. If I had to actually figure out how to have three jobs at the time, two day jobs and rehearsing theater at night, and then I had massive debt, my head would explode. And I know millions of people are dealing with that. So I was like, I'm not going to have any credit cards. I'm never going to owe anybody. If I can't afford the thing right now, I don't get it. And that's the way I lived all the way. And I constantly subletted apartments. And I finally got to a place where I was the sole renter and had to sign paperwork.

And I remember it was DuPont Circle in DC. And the guy said, for this like hovel little studio efficiency apartment. And he said, well, I have to run a credit check. And I said, oh, go ahead. I couldn't wait. I thought it was going to be like bells would go off and he'd be like, this is literally the only person in the world who doesn't owe a single cent to anyone,

not lunch money from sixth grade, like nothing. And no, he comes back and he's like, I can't rent to you at all. You have no credit. I go, well, no, I don't have any debt. I said, you have no credit. And I, well, no, I don't have any debt. I said, you have no credit. And I'm embarrassed to say, I think I was, I think I was like 28.

Yeah, that's how they get you. That's the fucking game. It's such bullshit. You're supposed to carry a little bit of debt just to show that you can pay off things. This superintendent gentleman who had no time for me and also had to be like the janitor in this apartment building sat me down on the curb in august in dc and explained credit and to me and said you've got to get a credit card and you got to, you know,

just don't pay off like $2 a month. Just always leave this like slight running balance until you have credit. And then just out of the good of his heart, rented me the apartment because I had, I had nowhere to go. Oh, that's nice. So wait, let's, so going back there. So after you, you were going to be a painter, but then at some point you decided acting was it. You were going to be a painter, but then at some point you decided acting was it. You grew up in Albuquerque, right? I did. So did you have, and this isn't a facetious question or a mocking question, did you have any outlets where you were like, oh, that's a viable career to be a standup comedian or

to act? I didn't have anything like that anywhere near me. No, I didn't think about that stuff. I just like at some point because I was somewhat, you know, entitled and my heroes were all, you know, intellectuals and artists and everything else. I just knew that I wanted to be, you know, educated. Like I did photography for a while and I, you know, I kind of wanted to act in college, but no, I didn't, I never saw any, making money was not part of my big plan for some reason.

I just wanted to be educated and creative. No, I just wanted to like, I just wanted there to be salons with Gertrude Stein and Dorothy Parker. Yeah, that would be good. And paint people's dining rooms red and do the whole thing. Yeah, I just wanted to be in the arts. And I grew up with Southerners as parents that were really great storytellers. My dad, if he tells you that he got stuck in traffic on the way to 7-Eleven, or my mom wants to tell you about picking up eggs, it's a great story.

They could win the moth. My mom should try. And so I was just used to that like being taken on a journey and um and and uh i remember my dad very long thin lanky guy and uh he would very slowly shift his weight left or right and re recross your legs and switch the other one to the other side and that was this pause and it was literally about you know like so i drive in and the 7-eleven parking lot i'll tell you and it would be like a big shift and it's nothing nothing happened but didn't matter everyone was riveted um but it's good it's a good it's a good building

device like you know yeah drawing it out right um my sister's hysterical so my dad did have as far as i can tell i mean there's just no way around it my sister agrees had to have had massive undiagnosed depression and he had this job where he couldn't tell people including us and any close friends mostly what he was doing at any given time and never talked about vietnam um i know he he said that his hearing was bad in one ear because of someone trying to shoot him in the head and the gunshot was so close that it damaged his hearing. Well, and maybe he had the PTSD, right? He could have.

I don't know. There was also stuff where, I mean, his main job was finding out that one of our own, including in his own office, had turned, turned the other side, you know, and was spying for the other side so i can't imagine you could maintain friends although he was very he was very well liked but he was extremely private very funny very wry super dry sense of humor that i to this day love when people are good at that like the kind of thing where you don't even care if the person ever gets that you were kidding.

Like he'd drive home snickering knowing that you did not get it. Super dry. And what he would do when he would come home sometimes after doing we don't know what for a couple of days is, yeah, definitely drink bourbon. But he would go to his, what was supposed to be his office, but it was not

filled with a bunch of like government stuff that was all on base where you had that stuff. It was filled with drawing supplies. His, his mom was, um, an expert drawer and oil painter and taught it. Uh, and he painted and drew with her and that is what he did to self-soothe, to get his feelings out. And it was all escapist art. It was all very Americana, Wild West stuff. I have pieces from when he was in Vietnam. They wouldn't let him take his sketchbooks and everything because it was extra baggage that's not necessary. So he stuffed charcoal in any pockets of any of the uniforms and little charcoal nibs.

And then when stuff when there were bombs and stuff in the street, he would take the pieces of cardboard and paper that would go flying and drew from memory. These like cowboys on horses, like very like old West Americana stuff. And then he framed them in these irregular shapes. He kept them that way. And so I grew up watching him and that was a very normal thing to do when my sister and I were being, uh, out of control, we were told to go draw all the time. And so we did, and then he would correct our drawings. Um, he even like shaded by like he would do like anatomical shading on my hollyhock um coloring books my sister and i were always horrified we're like it made her look old and weird but uh it was extremely normal and i and he also he and my mother expected my sister and I to be well spoken and articulate. And when some very powerful people,

I'm sure very intellectual people were coming over, not as much like you're talking about. It wasn't like artists and musicians were coming over. There were more government people, but they were very worldly and having these very adult conversations. And my sister and I were always expected to participate. And as my fiance says, his dad used to say that they needed, yes, it's good to be interesting, but you need to be interested just as much.

And this whole swirl of things made me think, oh, I want to be in the arts. I need to be an artist. I don't want to, I have to like be able to just like discuss ideas. And then I'm going to go into my studio and paint. And I loved painting, and I was good enough at it that I started getting sent to a gifted school for painting after regular school from a pretty young age and went all the way up to going to college. And the whole time I was obsessed with TV and movies.

I fully owned that I was raised by the television. Snuck the television, got a restriction for watching television. Nick at Night at the time was old sitcoms. It wasn't children's stuff. So I'd watch old black and white stuff. And later it was the art house movie theaters and watching French films. And I wanted to do, I was like, oh, that's, that's actually how I want to tell stories. It's that, but American television at the time

and films, everybody either seemed to already have parents are in the business or they live in Hollywood or they look like models. There was just not a lot of room. And I didn't, I was, And I didn't. I was, I mean, at the time, quite chunky. And it just seemed I felt sure that I would be laughed at in my face if I said, like, I think I'll be an actor. Right. So I went to school and I was going to major in painting and I was majoring in painting. And you had to take an elective that was not in your chosen major. So there was an acting class and I took it. not in your chosen major. So there was an acting class and I took it and Lenny Raybuck was my teacher.

And I'm very, very lucky that that first class was not a feel good sort of emotional non-disciplined kind of class. It was a, it was practical aesthetic handbook, which is the Atlantic theaters's craft and techniques. It's all in the script. I loved it. It's all in the script.

Yes. And objectives, motivations, tactics, super objective, the given circumstance, all of these things. And to me, I was in love instantly because I thought, oh, taking away it being just like an ethereal magic thing that you may or may not possess. Right. Some people, that's like de-romanticizing it as an art form. To me, it made it an art form. I was like, oh, I get that. I know how to sit down and work. It's a practical system, tools.

Yes. Right. Yes. sit down and work is a practical system tools yes right yes the fact that you and it was so relieving to me coming from a lot of chaos in my house and it wasn't just my dad like just a lot of stuff going on um surrounding my sister and i and uh it almost was like psychiatrically a really um big gift to me to start actually thinking about why people behave the way they behave and what's going on internally, even though they're saying something else. We had people with anger issues around us. We had, of course, the alcoholic that's not making sense sometimes and then other times not remembering what they said and then other times apologizing for what they said um i had a lot of southern relatives that um

smiled through their teeth but they would stab you in the back in a heartbeat but it's all very very polite um and so it was my sister and i spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the hell anybody actually meant at all times right and so the acting thing i was just like oh that is how you make a character feel human that even when you're one when you're watching somebody and they have decided some internal choices and some internal motivations even the ones that you'll never see that are not script related to an obvious objective. They will come alive more real to you. There's something you will feel tactile about it that it's like, that's, that's more real. And so it was that. And then I fell in love with it. I just couldn't, I, there was no chance I would do anything else. I, and I didn't

same as you did not had no idea if I could make a living on it, but it didn't matter. That's what I'm going to do. And so after college, you just started doing the small theater stuff? I started getting involved with professional theaters before I even left college. I noticed a lot of kids, you know, and it's just like you got to take the hand you're dealt, of course. And I wasn't looking for the silver lining at the time, but I look back and I think, wow, I was really kind of on my own when I was in college and paying all my bills myself and trying to figure out everything. And that made me keenly aware that there were a lot of kids there who thought they'd wait till they got out of college to kind of figure it out. And then

maybe you'll go intern. And there seemed to be this gap between academic and professional. And because my school had a lot of adjunct teachers, we had almost all professional. There was a professional painter teaching painting who had a show that night at a gallery and professional actors who were working this weekend in a play. And they didn't have a lot of time to coddle anybody. It was very matter of fact, a lot of speeches like you gave to the podcast people of like, listen, you'll probably never make it, but here's how you can actually learn how to act. I don't give a shit if you figure out how to make a career out of it. And so I pushed myself to volunteer to read stage directions for new plays. I started taking the Metro into Washington, D.C., where there's some of, I think, the best theater in the world.

Just like the most amazing theater happening there. stage directions in a basement for a new play or volunteered ushering, volunteered backstage props, food props, anything just to be around people professionally doing it. So by the time I was auditioning, it was a much smoother transition because people already knew me. Wow. Yeah. Who's I talked to someone whose mom used to run a theater, Jason Zineman's mom. I don't know which theater she ran though in DC, but it feels like it was like i bet you joy zinneman is his mom and she ran studio theater there you go how do you like that i had a class with her how interesting what were you talking

to jason about well he's the comedy critic for the new york times get out i didn't know that yeah i never i mean i've read articles by him, but I never even connected that like, that joy is funny. Yep. Yep. Yep. I acted in her theater. Yep. Yeah. So it was all about theater and that was the thing. And you had no idea how you were going to get out here or do that. I didn't really care. I mean, I, I wanted to do, because I first fell in love with acting, watching things on camera. I knew that I wanted to do, because I first fell in love with acting, watching things on camera, I knew that I wanted to try that as well. But it was not like theater was a stepping stone to get to that.

I love them both equally. A lot of the plays that I was doing, especially the ones that were new play development, would then go to New York. And part of the reason that I loved DC theater is the playwrights would sometimes take really big risks doing the DC opening because it matters. And the Washington post matters and they're very savvy theater audiences there. But if you fail,

your career isn't over like it is if the New York times like says your play sucks. So they would try a lot of stuff and it was really cool. And then those plays were transferred to New York and sometimes they transfer and I wanted to go and they didn't, a lot of the theaters there didn't know they have to, they have to sell tickets. So they either do New York Juilliard people or they do New York named people.

So I started traveling up and trying to audition and little by little ended up just saying, you know what, I'm just going to, I'm going to move up there for a beat to try some theater there. And I did and got cast in a couple of things. And then I was doing a play for playwrights horizons when I auditioned on videotape for a sitcom that brought me here to LA and people were saying all the time, you know, if you want, if you ever want to start TV, you have to go out, you have to fly out for pilot season.

But I'm way too thin-skinned. Did you do it? Yeah, they used to send me out for pilot season, but it was a joke. It was just a fucking joke. I mean, I've had TV deals over my career, but you know what I mean? But the goal for the stand-up really was like, you want to get a show, you want to get a deal and hook up with a writer who will create a show around you. That was always the big thing. Cause the, the models were like Roseanne Ray, Brett Butler. Uh, you know,

that was the model you, your comedic persona was so honed that, you know, it was just a no brainer to make you the center of a show. And I don't know why at that age I ever thought that I would be that. I mean, I eventually did one on IFC that no one watched, but it was a good show for four seasons. But it was almost a lot of what I've done lately in my life is just sort of like, well, I always wanted to do this, and now I can, so I'm just going to do it to check it off the list.

I don't give a fuck, but you know, let's, let's get it done. Yeah. Well, that's pretty amazing that you can. No, no. And I, and I, and I was able to do it on my terms and everything, like everything worked out good. I'm good. But like for you, like I would go out there, but it would just be like, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't understand how show business worked, you know, like, you know, I know i just didn't either i did not i did not either how old were you when you came out here 32 playing like 22 in most things i looked a lot younger so you were doing theater for like a decade before oh yeah like 12 like 12 years before you even came out here. And I am thankful for it. I, I, I firmly understood what I was doing and what I loved about what I was

doing. And so, yeah, I wanted to, you know, do television and, and, and films,

but it wasn't because I thought that's what I'll finally make me think that I'm, um, that I love this or that I'm any good at this. I mean, I'm still evolving and, and you know, I always think like shame,

shame on you if you don't get better with every single scene you do. But, um, but I knew at the time I was like, well, I know, I know what I'm doing enough that I will show people this snapshot of a character that I came up with.

And either I fit the way they're telling this story or, or I don't. Now that doesn't mean to say that I didn't go in and have my heart broken a couple of times where I was like, they are wrong. I definitely was the right person to tell the story. And like a lot of people just, I have a,

a way it goes back to the, what I told you that I fell in love with when I was studying acting. And that's to have an internal life, to have a fully, and I've done sitcoms that I'm totally proud of. Sitcoms get a bad rap and they shouldn't, especially multicams, as far as like the quality of acting or whatever. Like which ones? You ask anybody what their favorite sitcom is,

and they're going to tell you Seinfeld, Cheers, All in the Family, all these ones that are actual multicams. It's just about how smartly they're written and how smartly people are allowed to play them. What's your favorite sitcom from when you were growing up? Growing up? Maud. I've modeled two characters in my life completely after Bea Arthur, and I'm not sad. Which ones?

My first one in I'm With Her, there is so much Bea Arthur in that. It's like Bea Arthur trapped in a punk, naysaying, butthole little sister. That's funny. That's what I was playing. Well, that's funny because there was an aggravated Jewish man trapped in Bea Arthur. Exactly. I love it her timing anything she did or madeline khan or gilda radner did i was just like that's it that's it i gotta learn how to do that that

that that um yeah great timing great comedic timing yeah so great and then so yeah are they i was working in brooklyn living and working in Brooklyn at the time, doing a play, and I did this videotape. And like I said, a lot of people didn't want much to do with my acting, because even though I started Chunky and crew cut shaved black hair, by that time, I had long blonde hair and was thinner and fit, that shouldn't matter but i started getting called in for parts that were um girlfriends that do nothing and i would i would make up whole lives for them like well clearly there's a reason why you're just standing here quietly so um i'll be a crack addict or whatever like i always had to like have a thing and it wasn't about i promise you i wasn't trying to steal the scene i just wanted to be active in the scene and um people did not care for that a lot and then all of a sudden i got this

call about this part and i had made up this character sherry that i loved would have done in my driveway for no one i would have done it on the subway and they my agent called and said they want to they want you to come out to uh uh la to screen test for this um i was like really that's amazing and she said well listen the only she said i just need to tell you something and it's not going to be funny here but they're telling me so i'm just going to tell you i said okay she said it's it's they kind of need in the studio and network test they kind of need to have some people for people to say no to so that they look so that the network feels like they chose the person themselves. So there's basically some filler around them. But you have to be good.

They don't want to embarrass themselves. But there's basically no way you can get this job. The network wants a star because it was definitely it was like the Megan Mullally part. It was the joke part, like all the zingers. Um, no, like, so they want, they want to get a big name and they've got some people on hold and some people interested. And then also the so-and-so has a friend that he wants to do it. La la la. And I went on and on and on. And I was like, okay.

And she was like, but you'll be in front of LA casting people and ABC people. And, um, you've never been to LA know LA all of these things are great and I was like yeah and then I asked if we had to stay overnight I said even if I don't even if I don't move forward do I get to stay overnight and the reason was because everyone at the time was watching Sopranos and I didn't have cable she's like yeah I was like okay so like there be cable in the hotel and she said yeah I was like yeah let's do it um and i went and they brought me in and they i flew in at like i want to say

i got in like 10 o'clock at night the studio test was supposed to be the next day around nine and they put me up at the sheridan over in City Walk. Yeah, I know that one, yeah. And I remember waking up around five. I didn't even get to sleep. I was very nervous. And I was like, okay, I gotta get some sleep. It's like two o'clock in the morning, 2.30 in the morning. And I'm trying to make myself go to sleep.

And I thought, okay, I'll just, and I was still in my clothes trying to calm down. And I thought, well, I'll just, even though I was told I couldn't get the job, I was still very nervous. I thought everyone would see me as not belonging, which is how I feel everywhere. And so I was like, I'll just get up in the morning. I'll take a shower and I'll review my site.

And so I set my alarm. And then around like a little after 5 after 5am, the hotel phone was ringing and the woman said, uh, maybe it was like five 30. She said, your cab is waiting downstairs. And I said, okay, well, okay. That's great. I have like three and a half hours still. Right. And, um, this woman starts yelling behind her. I forgot to put the fax under her door. this woman starts yelling behind her. I forgot to put the fax under her door. And I said, wait, what?

They had had something where they needed to fast track this. So they made the network test that was supposed to be a day later, the nine, and it meant the studio test now had to be at seven, which meant the work through with the writer had to be at six. So they needed to make it in a cab now. And I'm in my clothes. Like three hours of sleep, deep trench mark sheet marks on my face, which apparently are on camera in the audition.

Cause Marco Pinnett told me that he has tape of it. And I am greasy and haven't eaten and trying to wake up I call my agent I was like what happened this is not fair and she was like okay she finds out from them they're basically like look sorry I mean

she you know she was kind of just the filler anyway like we can't change the studio the network test for her and so my agent said i'm so sorry hon but what do you want to do and i said well how much time can they give me she said you got to be downstairs in 10 minutes so i decided i will brush my teeth that's all i got i was like you can't take a shower get ready at that point it'll be worse yeah you just look like this instead um i want i was like i'm just going to my teeth and i'm gonna try to be calm and i'm just gonna go do this little part and there's nothing i can do about it and i went and

i was so tired and so hungry and so not understanding what a studio test or a network test was i just didn't understand the process that you were going to be in a room in front of 30 people no no idea and as a matter of fact i and i i now know that this isn't normal they told us right then and there they had to go so fast from studio to network that they told us right in the hallway like you can stay you're going you stay you go you go wow and and so it's so cruel it was it was pretty bad so i mean and i. And they were, by the way, the people there were so nice. I don't think it was ABC's fault. I think it was timing or something went wrong or whatever.

So I kept asking, apparently, and I barely remember this. It was Chris Henchey and Marco Panet's story. It was Chris Henchey's sitcom based around his real life of him dating Brooke Shields. sitcom based around his real life of him dating brook shields um and terry polo was playing the like famous celebrity the brook shields part and um i apparently kept asking people when we would be allowed to eat because i was so hungry and falling asleep and uh and they were like uh i'm not sure. But you just made it to the network test. It was like, that's so great. Do they have food there? Because I did not understand at all. And I realized like, wow, there was like 20 people in there.

Now there's four. Okay. And then we were in this holding room. And then they told us to go in this other room. They said, Ray, can you go in that room? And the room was the ABC testing one where it's a theater but you're entering from like the back of the house and you're going down the stairs right and that's where people just filed in but i didn't know that meant i'm going to stage i thought like oh the next room we now wait in is this theater like i'll sit in the audience but they had a table set up with i guess the networks like breakfast,

it was like bagels and locks and a bunch of stuff. So I just went to the table and started making, and I was literally supposed to be the person who comes in and goes straight to the stage. So I just started making like a bagel and some cream cheese. And Kelly ABC casting's her last name? So nice. She's sitting right there.

And she's like right next to me in the aisle. And I just remember her whispering. And she goes, that's not for you. You're supposed to be on stage. Was it Kelly Lee? Was it like? Yes. Yes.

And I turn around and I go, what? And she goes, yeah, that's, it's your turn to be on the stage and i said oh can i can i keep this and i put like my bagel on the edge on a little plate and i remember thinking like i'm getting it on the way fucking out i don't fucking care what anybody says and i go down and i still like it's the same as what you're saying like I didn't understand the business I did give a shit there's no way I could say I don't give a shit I just didn't know the game right and I started to read and I realized like I looked up and I realized like oh shit there's like 30 people in here with the house lights up and it made me very nervous and I was like I did not come all

this way to not do this little portrait that I like and I don't care if you like it but I like it and I'm going to do the one I want to do so I stopped I go whoa that was weird I got weird there we got to start it over and everyone was like what I was like yeah hang on and I just like sat and then calmed down and then I went again and I did it and I left and I went back to my hotel room and about a half an hour later, it was very fast. My agent called and said, she's like crying. She was like, what, what happened? I was like, why?

I was like, I know I ate the bagel and I didn't know I had to go to stage. And she was like, she goes, no, they're all calling and saying like, does she have nerves of steel? They were like, nothing affects her. She blew everyone away and she got the job and the show got picked up and they flew me there like a month later i didn't know anybody i stayed at the oakwoods the oakwood apartments that's a great story and that started you rolling but like let's yeah but it looks like when i look at the resume with the other stuff you did i mean after you did i'm with her i mean that was nice

you got your health insurance. You got your cards. You got your – I got my Marshall's shoes. You got your money. But like – and then like you were just kind of like kicking around doing like things here and there, right? I actually did a lot of – I did a lot of pilots that weren't picked up. And some of them were my favorite things. I was working consistently. There was – I want to say the following, over the following 10 years,

you know, a couple of them went for a while. Franklin and Bash I did for a long time. Whitney. But there was a lot you did. There was a lot. Yeah, there was a lot of pilots. I mean, some were just heartbreakers. I did Mitch Hurwitz and Christopher Guest's The Thick of It,

which was the original American interpretation of In the Loop that later, later, later became Veep. Right. And thank God it did because Julia Louis-Dreyfus is a genius. And I'm so happy that all of that happened. But at the time, that was a heartbreaker for me. That's where I first worked with Michael McKean. It was Christopher Guest and all his people and me. And I felt like I was like a Make-A-Wish Foundation kid. I couldn't believe it. Wow, that's great. So I thought, you know,

it's interesting looking at all the stuff you have done. I forget that people do those things that you get, you shoot a bunch of stuff that doesn't just doesn't go. Did you do a lot of pilots? No, but you get paid. No, I didn't do a lot of pilots. I had deals over time to create shows for me with writers, and none of them ever even made it to pilot over the decades that I was doing that kind of stuff. Would you ever create work for someone else? Nah. No. Nah.

I didn't. No. I did my thing and I was never really in the market to be a writer, but I did have several sort of deals and development deals. And I worked with writers over the course of my life before we did Marin on IFC. I probably generated four or five pilot scripts for me that didn't go with different know different you know networks so I was around but not as an actor you know it was always sort of like you're a comic you know what's your idea for you what's your persona going to be doing what are you going to be doing in this show and be like all right so here it is he's a chef you know so you do this you do this performance and they're like we love it let's give them a deal and have them meet some

of the writers and let's do a script and then what do you owe them for the deal the script and like five rewrites or what do you know usually you do like you do the script and then you know once they decide whether it's going to go or it's not it's done how many of them did you actually shoot none none zero so but you do all this stuff and then how does how does saul happen uh i got pigeonholed as a sitcom actress and i was very aware with whitney and bash and that stuff yeah every all the pilots that i that didn't go to um were all sitcoms. And I mean, Franklin and Bash was a one hour, but still, it was a comedy.

And I was thrilled. I had a ton of friends that weren't getting called for anything. And I was consistently called in for stuff. So I knew that I had a lot of gratitude for that. But I was also very confused because that was not a thing in theater. You did not say somebody is a comedic or a dramatic actor. Sometimes people split up who's classical and who's contemporary, sometimes unfairly, but I had not really seen people split comedy and drama

except to the degree, and I don't know the science behind this, but yes, I didn't know any comedic actors who couldn't do drama, but I did know some dramatic actors who could not do comedy. Right. It doesn't always go both ways. But I just wasn't prepared for,

I, you know, I would read a dramatic script or here's something that was going to be on and knew that I was right for it. And they just wouldn't see me. Sometimes they would see me and I'd get to a call backstage and the producers would just get nervous because they'd seen me in a sitcom and there's like you know no no no we need like a dramatic actress um right but the whole time there was a number of uh casting directors um and sharon

bialy sherry thomas and russell scott were among those that uh do not see actors that way. And they I owe them a lot of gratitude for it because they they have seen a body of my work that's larger than has actually ever been on screen. But they called me in for tons before nine years before I saw. And I was just like, they're clearly going to stop calling me in. And they did not. And they would call me in for huge parts and like deep, dark monologue, difficult, indie role any like and then a broad sitcom all of it yeah and they would uh and so by the time i auditioned for salt better call salt did a wide casting that um it was not just calling people thankfully you know if they had just done some offer only thing for five actresses, I would have never met them. So I went and I auditioned and they were able to talk to Vincent

Peter about a decade of a body of work of mine that no one else had seen and how I did this and how I did that and how I adapt to this and this, that and the other. And it really like it, I still get goosebumps. It meant so much to me, not just because it is part of how I still get goosebumps. It meant so much to me, not just because it is part of how I got this part. It is because all those auditions that I prepared for that I didn't have a chance of how a chance and how I'm getting, I still, I still went in with my a game because I like to, because I liked the character that I made up and you think they're just going

out to the ether and they don't matter. But collectively, collectively, they do. And they did. That's great. That's a good story. I mean, and and then working with Bob, I've known Bob, you know, since we were, you know, I've known Bob for eight years, like probably. 32, 33 years, you know, and he's always been a collaborative worker. Yes. And, you know, and I's always been a collaborative worker. Yes. And, you know, and I knew him before he was like a serious actor. Like I've watched him sort of evolve into this acting. And I imagine you have as well over the arc of the show.

He's actually gotten better as time goes on. It's sort of fascinating. Agreed. And I think part of that is the writers writers they're seeing like there's nothing he can't do so they keep giving him more and then he challenges himself and he rises above that challenge you know what i mean so they just keep giving it more and more layers because he can do it he's very hard on himself very very very very our first season he and i know he wouldn't mind me saying he would say all the time like because i would ask we would have scenes together and i would say we would rehearse we rehearsed ad nauseum um and i would talk about this that or

the other like in the scene like do you want to try it that way or that way and he would constantly say like well you're the real you're a real actor so you tell me i'm like so are you and i would if you ask him how he breaks down a scene it it's exactly like mine. But yeah, you're right. He's very hard on himself. And in his head has this idea of like, I'm a sketch comedy guy. I'm a yeah, whatever. I don't think he feels that way now, but he has. Yeah, he learned on the job. Yeah, but yeah, he's you. You know very well. He's got a self-deprecating side for sure. yeah he's you you know very well he's got a self-deprecating side for sure right and i think that the relationship and the sort of depth of it over time between you guys on the show has been really kind of amazing because like there's this weird tension to it where you know as you learn more about kim wexler and her sort of like um kind of weird side that you know that not self-sabotaging

but the sort of danger seeking you know pushing you know uh-huh that you you start to understand how they fit together but you don't really know you know what she comes from you sort of know what he comes from so you must have put together some inner life for that character i did i did from the very beginning even when i was like oh i don't know if i'm gonna be dead in the next episode like i mean i did that every episode in season one and uh but still you had to like i mean literally i just and patrick fabian and i both would just flip flip flip flip and then we text each other i'm not dead um and so everything was everything was a gift but yeah they're so smart at writing and they hired me and they know the way i, they knew how I was going to approach it. So when,

when the pilot had me having two lines, I think I say, we got it, Brenda or something to the receptionist when he breaks in doing the Ned Beatty, you will atone speech. And then there's the, the garage smoking scene. And we share one sentence.

He says, couldn't you just, and I say, you know, I, you know, I can't. And then it says she fixes the trash can that he kicked without looking, which I thought was very important.

I was like, oh, he does this a lot. And she always cleans up after him. But, you know, from the very beginning, yeah, I put together a whole backstory. I didn't want to hem myself in too tightly because I wanted to be able to take in information. But there had to be a reason. All of her physicality for me came from, wow, she's very specific about when she speaks and what she says. And I don't think it's a position of weakness. I think it's a position of power. So if you're somebody who's that specific, I didn't have contractions in the first like

eight episodes. And there was a part of me that wanted to ask him like, you don't mind if I say wanna instead of want to or gonna, right? And I was like, now, let's see if maybe this will unlock something. And it did. I was like, this person is so controlled about what she wants you to see. And what she doesn't want you to see that maybe she also doesn't really let people see what she's thinking on her face. Maybe she's also extremely still in her body, which is 180 degrees opposite of me. I would never win at poker and I'm an utter spaz. And so that was fun. And that was cool to try to figure out how tight I could get it and then fill those dots to constantly have a reason why she's

not speaking. And a lot of times it's because she's waiting for people in the room to hang themselves with their own words. And it just kept going down that road. And the relationship with Jimmy made sense to me. They're both outsiders. They're both misanthropes in a way and socially very awkward. And they both put on masks. His is a very flamboyant clownish mask and hers is this armor, this suit and curled ponytail.

But they have no friends. Right. They're like only honest with each other. Right. But they have this weird vulnerability with each other right but they but they have this weird vulnerability with each other too that that that has to be unpacked every time that it's going to be expressed almost yeah exactly yeah exactly the most frustrating thing about this pandemic outside of the world possibly ending is that you know i have to i have to wait so long for like you know because

like at the end of last season we thought you were a goner and you weren't. Yeah, I know. I didn't know if I was either. Although I was just like, well, they would tell me. Peter and Vince have always said they would have the respect to come tell me. But now it's like set up for like, holy fuck, now what's going to happen? I don't know. I don't know.

They're in the writer's room. I think they've broken episode five, want to say or six of this season oh wow you know i just interviewed um john carlo esposito such an interesting man isn't he yeah he is yeah yeah i had a great time i just wish there wasn't this fucking plague because i was just out there i drove to taos i could have probably had lunch with him and just been like kind of hung out but like now you can't like you don't want to ask anybody it's like too weird and you know you want to sit there yeah well maybe we'll maybe we'll get through it maybe we'll all be okay okay just be thankful be thankful you're painting and you the great thing about you painting is that you know how to paint so it must be nice

do you know what I mean? It is nice. It's like this isn't it. It's nice to have something like that where you're like, I'm going to learn how to paint during this. Like I play guitar and I play it okay. And I have it, you know, when I'm sitting around, I can do it. So it's nice to have a skill that's creative and meditative that you actually know how to do so you can get some pleasure out of it. Yes. I would agree. You can just sort of meditate, self-soothe, get through it.

It was great talking to you, finally. You too. I hope we do it in person one day soon. Yeah, I'm in, like someday when we don't have to wear masks. Exactly. But thank you for having me on. All right, take it easy. Okay, you too that was ray seahorn watch better call saul on amc.com or the amc app what a lovely lady god damn it i'm feeling the weight of the world

around my belt line fucking peanut butter it's good though it's healthy right I'm gonna play this guitar now I'm gonna play it it. Thank you. Thank you. ¶¶ Boomer lives. Monkey.

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