WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1177 - Johnny Flynn

Episode Date: November 23, 2020

Johnny Flynn and Marc already developed a rapport while they were road-tripping through Canada. They were playing David Bowie and Bowie's publicist at the time, but they still got to enjoy each other's company. Now they get to converse just as themselves, as they talk about the movie they made together, Stardust, as well as Johnny's personal journey from a fishing boat to acting school to rock bands and record contracts. Johnny also brings up a bit of advice Marc gave him when they were on the road that changed the way he looked at his life. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air.

This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast. WTF, welcome to it. You all right? What are you doing? What are you doing for Thanksgiving? You keeping it tight? You laying low? You keeping it in-house?

Like not people coming into the house? It's a weird thing that's happening on all levels in terms of how people seem to understand this virus. It seems kind of clear to me that they're figuring out how to treat it a little better. But that doesn't mean it's not a heinous, dangerous, erratic. In terms of how it affects each individual bit of toxic viral contagion. And it's worse now than it's ever been. That's the odd thing.

I mean, I think that's indicative of something. How's it going? Are you guys all right? I don't want the fucking virus. Today on the show, I talked to Johnny Flynn. I don't want the fucking virus. Today on the show, I talked to Johnny Flynn. He played David Bowie in the film that I'm going to be in.

That's opening soon. I believe it opens on Wednesday, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, Wednesday, November 25th, in theaters and on demand. The film Stardust with me and Johnny Flynn. You might know him as a recording artist. He's got several records people enjoy. He was in the movie Beast and in the movie Emma. He's on a television series called Lovesick.

And I talked to him today. It's an interesting thing about that movie that uh this sort of weird it's it's amazing to me what people get how they direct their anger you know there was this immediate reaction to the initial promotion of this film from from people who were like bowie diehard bowie nerds worked up upset that they didn't think David wanted a movie about him. They didn't think the estate didn't allow the music. But I'll tell you one thing about this movie. It's not a biopic. It's a little window into a period in time in David's life where he wasn't quite sure how he was going to do what he wanted to do or who he was necessarily. It's an important crossroads in any creative person's life.

If they're conscious enough to know they're standing there. And I don't think any of us really picture David Bowie as being insecure or unsure of himself or not really knowing how to take the next step creatively. But we should. or not really knowing how to take the next step creatively, but we should. It's one of those things where if you look at all the different decisions he made about his own character and personas and this and that,

it would, you know, when did that start? How did that start? What was the decision-making process? This is sort of a very engaged, respectful exploration of that, of that moment where Davidid bowie didn't know who david bowie should be or who david bowie was it's called stardust it opens wednesday the 25th this wednesday in theaters and in streaming so enjoy that and i know a lot of the holdouts, the Bowie loyalists who refuse to believe that somebody who had a 50-year career putting things out into the world,

spreading himself out to be judged and criticized and appreciated and celebrated and demanding a certain amount of recognition and admiration and understanding, that anybody should sort of take that up and say, well, I want to understand more. I want to explore David Bowie in a piece of writing, a book, a record, a movie. Public people, public artists, especially great ones, are provocative. They're provocative to other artists who make stuff. This is one of those things. This is part of that stuff. Stardust is the name of the movie.

But speaking of the plague and the fact that things, how things have changed, you remember how terrified we all were when it started and what we were doing? Washing boxes, leaving boxes outside, washing vegetables, washing our hands, not going inside places, running in and out of places. We learned a few things about the disease, about the spread of it, about whether boxes were safe or how much we should clean things, surfaces and whatnot. But we've also learned since then that it's more contagious than we thought it was. And that mask certainly helps stop the spread or limit the spread of the contagion. But the bottom line is, whatever the case, however we saw it then, it's worse than it's ever been now.

And people have slacked off because they've learned to live with the reality of it but fortunately most people have not had to learn to live with the disease itself a great many people have had people in their families die or get the disease but most people have not gotten the disease. And that is slowly changing. But the attitudes are not. I don't know if it's entitlement, self-centeredness, a lack of empathy, or just giving zero fucks. But the reality is, you don't know what it's going to do to you when you get it.

There are people that assume, hey, I'm healthy. Doesn't matter, really. It may. There are people like, well, you know, Trump got treated with it. You can't have that treatment. But I'm guilty of it. This is the fucking problem. I'm guilty of it.

Nobody can guarantee your safety if you're going to do things. You have to decide. You have to take your calculated risks that help you maintain your sanity. You don't want to lose your mind or get suicidal because of the fear of disease, but you do want to take care of yourself. is that people want to continue doing things they want to do. And they want to at least start doing things they want to do. And businesses want to start making their services available to people that want them. Whether it's a restaurant, whether it's a comedy club, whether it's a movie production, they're putting the risk on the individual. The people that are providing services, they know that they can't guarantee your safety. Nobody can guarantee anybody's safety, really.

So it's on you to decide. So make sure you're straight with your mind and your heart in terms of the decisions you're making. And also you have to remember that it's not all about you. That seems to be a very difficult thing for people not americans just people myself included i'm inconvenienced i'm making a choice to take a risk because i i want to be able to do certain things what if that puts a lot of other people at risk i'm but i'm not gonna i'm not good i'm not going to, I'm not going to talk to, I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to do that. That's not who I am. But you will if you do this. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm not going to. It's a reality. All right. Okay. I know. I know. That, I think, is what's at the core of most people's behavior right now and most people's rationalization and justifying you poke at it just enough and you'll get like i know i know i know it's dangerous i get it look we're all angry man it's important to take care of yourself but it's important not to kill people with your lack of concern or irresponsibility. I meditated this morning.

I tried that out. You know, it was like it was a sit, you know, guided meditation. And I did it. I did what they told me. So I did it. And I'll do it again. And I'm going to keep doing it. Okay, I've made that decision

what a great finally finally i've done i'm doing something proactive something people have told me to do for years that could make a difference in my life why do i fight that shit also another word about thanksgiving don't look a gift horse in the mouth is that what this is everybody who complains about their fucking families non-stop over the holidaysgiving don't look at gift horse in the mouth is that what this is everybody who complains about their fucking families non-stop over the holidays you don't have to go you can just say i can't because i don't want to die or kill you so stop asking me to come you know i shouldn't i know all right then mom just tell dad and look i i love you but i'm not going to be there and then you hang up that phone and go oh my god this is a gift it's a gift so johnny flynn

is in the movie stardust with me plays david bowie in his uh man who sold the world, period. The movie opens this Wednesday, November 25th in theaters and on demand. And I met him on the set, and this is the first time we've really talked since we've done the movie. So this is Johnny Flynn and me talking. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything.

Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life will i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply

i see your instagram posts when you're doing the the live ones stuff oh the guitar yes every now and then when you're just ripping a riff up. Yeah. And that post is weird to be there in the flesh. Well, I mean, obviously I'm not as good a guitar player as you. That's not true. I do my bit. That's not true.

It's true. I can't finger pick, man. I was listening to some of your records yesterday. And I'm just sort of like, fuck, man. Why can't I finger pick man i was listening to some of your records yesterday oh and i'm just sort of like fuck man i gotta why can't i finger pick you could try you could do it what is it how long does it take you got to practice forever i was lucky i i was on like um a theater tour when i was like 22 and yeah there was one guy in the company who had a who was like a master of the finger thing and i oh yeah we were touring all around the world and who was like a master of the finger thing. Oh, yeah.

We were touring all around the world, and I was like, this is my... And I was, for a year, doing two Shakespeare plays, and I was quite bored a lot of the time. And I just was like, this is my year. I'm going to do it. This is my apprenticeship. And finger picking. I'm going to be a finger style master, yeah.

And now I'm finger style mediocre, but i i'm and now i'm finger style mediocre but but i did that year doing it so you can do your thumb separate from the other fingers i can do that but what i really wanted to be able to do was flip between the pick so you know richard thompson has this style and a couple of other people i think lightning hopkins did it as well where they instead of the because the doc watson way is this disciplined thumb where you go boom boom boom and then right boom boom and uh and if you can do the if you do with a flat pick holding between your thumb and forefinger what you would do with the thumb and then you move everything down one so

you have to use your your little finger your pinky finger um that's what you did that's what i do because it means i can tear into you know i can go into a into a solo or a you know when i'm with the band or whatever right or you could do big chords big rhythm with the yeah yeah yeah i can flip back and forth all right well i'll get you know i'll get it okay you can do it you could do i mean i'm just it's i've gotten i can do it a little bit and i'm a little better but not that style when we when we jammed in um in wherever that was hamilton in hamilton ontario yeah we were in this in the studio in um doing all the car stuff right yes right and it was like uh it was like a refugee bunker there was right yeah yeah everyone could hear us um right and uh i was actually i was really

blown away by i thought shit i can't i can't keep up so oh come on no come on no you were very nice you were great you're great that's why I'm talking about Peter Green. It's like spreading the gospel of Peter Green. You sowed a seed there. I was listening to him today, well, thinking about you, but that's gone really deep, actually. And now I'm like an evangelicist for tone, and he's the tone master

Right? That guitar man, that guitar had the weirdest tones I was noticing that too when I was listening To the records that at some point You know Because I had to kind of catch up on What you do, but as the records Moved on it seemed like your electric

Tone got dirtier yeah yeah i that was before the peter green business yeah i definitely i was always into that stuff and to be honest i think my blues i was a little bit sniffy about like chicago blues because yeah and i was a bit of a pure not not not purist but like i was so into like old country blues sure and and that that finger stuff and that you know like charlie patton and um robert johnson yeah yeah yeah i mean all those guys that yeah um it it took me a while to accept that because there's a bit more showmanship to it and actually reading the book that you gave me uh the birth of loud i think it's called oh that's great right

yeah yeah you you gave and and thinking about the technology and and seeing like and just it allowed me actually to to go on a journey with that a bit so So I've been listening to more B.B. King and that kind of stuff and thinking, yeah, I can do this now. Yeah, it's a middle-aged thing, but... The tone journey. You're on the tone journey. Yeah, I bought loads of pedals and everything. I'm just, yeah. Oh, my God.

Yeah. I'd stay away from the pedals. Just get yourself a vintage Fender amp. Yeah, I do. I have a Blues Deluxe. Yeah, they from the pedals. Just get yourself a vintage Fender amp. Yeah, I do. I have a Blues Deluxe. Yeah, they're the best. Yeah, really nice. So, all right.

Well, it's good to see you, man. You too, you too. So what did you think of the movie when you watched the whole movie? Our movie, Stardust. I really liked it. I mean, I thought it was really sweet. Right. You know, it's a small film it's it's

i'm getting so pissed off at the trolls about oh my god with the bowie family didn't want it and this is terrible it's like are you are i can't even pay attention to it i feel bad you know just it's just sort of like just shut up and don't see it if you don't want to see it yeah it's not a biopic no it's a it's a movie about this weird little sliver in time it's a dangerous um a dangerous attitude to have as well it's a kind of cancel culture bullshit because you know this the movie is journalistic in tone and there's um an objectivity that i think gabriel wanted by not being in bed with the estate and not being disrespectful to the subject, but just having that authorial objectivity and being able to tell the story

they wanted. It was a movie about, uh, you know, artistic, um, evolving as an artist and trying to sort of source the, the,

the kind of, uh, impulses that Bowie had and, and,ie had and where his creativity came from at an early age. It's not some sort of arcing thing. And also it's sort of a kind of an interesting buddy film when it comes down to you and me. Yeah. No, it's sweet. I like road movies.

And we went on that journey. We were hanging out there. It was cool. Yeah. We were hanging out there. It was cool. Yeah, we were hanging out in that horrible car in those horrible places, shooting very quickly. Yeah. Do you remember Nick, the DP? Yeah.

He's 80 now. You remember he only has hearing in one ear and he has one vocal cord. It was crazy. The 80-year old dp running around but he's like the real deal man he shot john lennon and all that stuff yeah he can make it look like the like the real thing which is all of that is i think what makes it good and it's i was surprised how good it looked dude because when you shoot something that quick i'm just sort of like are you sure you got it dude are you are we good yeah are we moving on here i know i

think gabriel you did a great job i'm talking i was talking to somebody i said yeah if i squinted i could you know you look like bowie totally if i squint it's like everything was there chubby bowie i didn't do enough coke um well that's good i how many kids you got now nine yeah i i three i i wanted i was i was going to apologize i've you know it's funny something that's been bugging me you know the day they came to set and um i don't know if you remember this but i thought about it afterwards we were having lunch and i was like you were sat on the table and and we were coming into the room to find a place to sit and you were there on your own in the table and i was thinking uh mark's on his lunch bait he you know he doesn't want to be bothered by these screaming you know i know what

they're like when they get going and they just all right they're like a swarm of locusts you know but yeah and then we sat on we sat on a different table and i remember you looking over like oh didn't you want to sit with me and i and i felt and then i said after it's like oh i'm sorry we didn't sit with you and you were like oh it's all right but i knew that actually in that moment i thought oh he would have been okay with it and i wanted to say it was only that i was trying to protect you from my maniac children i am so glad you brought that up because i've been carrying that resentment for months it's literally every time your name comes up i'm like fuck that guy and his kids yeah i knew i knew i fucked it i knew i fucked

it and then you know no it was fine so like we're let's i like i didn't realize until i i kind of did a little homework but um that you did not only with the musicianship but like it seems to me that the acting like it's something you always did was both of them right i mean you grew up in it well how like where do you where were you where are you from um i'm from you know my god it's really complicated we i grew up mostly in on the south coast in a little village uh in in a county called hampshire which is like you know pretty but not much happening um in england in england yeah and then and then when i was about 14, my parents moved to a fishing village in West Wales to this rural, beautiful, yeah, coastal village. And I worked on a fishing boat there growing up. Hold on.

So where were you born, though? Well, I was born in South Africa. My dad was an actor. He was on tour with a play. he was on tour with a play and my mom whose parents uh had gone out to south africa to be teachers was living in south africa and she met my dad they they got married they had me so your dad was on a tour in south africa yeah he was touring a play yeah so was he a big actor well he was kind of big in eng at the time, in the UK. A stage actor?

Stage and a bit of, like he played Ivanhoe in a BBC thing of Ivanhoe. He was in Disney, Dr. Sin, 60s. He did a lot of B movies and he did some Hammer movies and stuff. But he was like an RSC guy, you know, like a stage. And he sang. He sang and wrote songs. So he had a similar dynamic to me. And he often was in musicals and stuff in the days when musicals were kind of credible.

So your mom is South African? Yeah. I mean, she's born there. Yeah. Her parents were sort of British by descent. But she was, yeah. Yeah. So your dad lived there for a while when she was pregnant with you or he

moved there? He moved there. He just dropped everything. He had, um. Wow. He must've really loved her. I think he did. He did.

Yeah. He had a family. He had three kids, the youngest of which was 16. So it was no small thing. He left, you know, he went out. So he was married when he fell for your mom? He was, but they were sort of, my understanding is that they were sort of separated,

that they'd kind of gone their own way. And she met somebody, the first wife met somebody at the same time, who was actually my dad's friend. And I'm very close with them. So my dad's friend and we and i'm very i'm very close with them so my dad's not around anymore but my the first wife and and and her partner they come to see me in plays and they you know i go and visit them they we had christmas together it's really and you got a bunch of half brothers yeah yeah they're two half brothers and a half sister and they the brothers are both actors

as well i looked up one of them one of them look familiar you look uh scary yeah he's at that one the scary ones in um more recently in game of thrones but he was he was like and he was in 90s um he also weirdly had a kind of pop career in the 90s in the uk accidental one because he sang a song in a show that he was in and then he got offered money to put it out as a record. What's that guy's name? Jerome Flynn, my brother. Jerome Flynn. Yeah.

So you're all a bunch of actor-singer guys. Yeah, kind of, but very, you know, we don't talk about it. And we're very different from each other. And then my sister is also an actor. I never know whether to say actor or actress. And she sings. And she's in my band.

So she's on all the records and stuff and tours with me. And she has a great voice. And she's my full sister. Full sister. Right, right. I have a younger sister, yeah. Okay, so you're growing up. You're on the fishing boat.

How old are you on the fishing boat? 16 till i was about 18 but no you know it's a life decision in the holidays it's just yeah so oh right you weren't wasn't a career choice no but i still think it was like the best job i ever had lifting lifting lobster put yeah it was amazing i mean it's something so mystical and beautiful and you know simple in that exchange and kind of weird as well you're hauling something up from the i still have this i have a fixation with the sea um a good one i think so i don't know no i mean i'm terrified of it like yeah like you're about to say you don't know what's going to be in the cage. I'm like, yeah, exactly.

I just assume there's massive monsters under the sea. There are. Generally, yeah, if I'm in the sea, they're nearby in my mind. We're just a few feet away from some giant monster that is going to reveal itself. Wouldn't you rather that they were there than they're not there? Do you know what I mean? It feels like that's... Sure.

I just don't need to be near them. I'm happy that she can be filled with monsters, which it is. I have no problem with that, but I don't need to be swimming near them. Okay. That's my feeling. Yeah.

On a boat, I'm okay. It's a live and let live. Oh, of course. Yeah. I don't need to kill the monsters. Have you seen My Octopus Teacher on Netflix? Not yet. I watched a trailer

for it. I feel like I got the idea. It's great. I think it would crack open your heart. It seems sad to me. How much crying do I have to do? The guy follows around an octopus and then it dies?

Yeah. That's it. Hole in one. You did the trailer, right? Yeah. I mean, I hear it's good. I'll watch it eventually. Netflix should send you all the shows for you to do the voice on the trailer.

So when do you, so like in this fishing village is that where you start acting when did you when does it become no i went i went off to drama school uh when i was 18 19 maybe um yeah the way you know the the sort of traditional route in this country is if you want to be an actor you might go through university or just kind of get lucky or get spotted or whatever but if you really are going for it you go to drama school and it's like a vocational training like a three-year course and um it's really hard to get in yeah you know there's like you know 5 000 people 10 000 people auditioning for you know 12 places or something and i got into a good one and um i was always playing music i was i was playing in bands at school and stuff and then when i was in london at drama school i started

running a club night with a couple of friends basically just so we could play so we could put ourselves on to play and we we put on these gigs and we invited all our friends but early on like what was the music though? I mean, like, uh, were you in a rock band? Because like, it seems like in the first record, you know, it was,

you were doing kind of folky shit right away. Yeah. I mean, was that always a thing or did you, did you start with rock and then move? I mean, I grew up listening to a lot of punk music and a lot of like thrashy stuff. And, um, I was always, it wasn't that I was, I grew up listening to a lot of punk music and a lot of thrashy stuff, and I was always...

It wasn't that I was... Yeah, I think this is why it's quite difficult. I'm often kind of pinioned by the folk circuit, and I get invited to play by folk festivals and things, and then the traditional folk musicians often are like, who the fuck are you, kind of thing, because I don't know all those hundreds of that still goes on oh yeah big that still happens there's still in this

country it's huge really yeah it's it's big and it's coming back in a big big way what the folk is but folk into kind of mainstreamy sort of i mean there's a few there's a few i i find it i find really i always hated being called folk because i it had this connotation of like um i don't know just something kind of really naff and uh i i liked people like billy bragg who were who who had that energy and and they knew that the folk idiom was just a way of raging at the political system. So you're listening to punk rock, and then the first bands you're in, what's the angle, more Billy Bragg-ish? Well, what happened was around that time in 2004, 2005,

when I first started playing out live. When you were in drama school just yeah the coming out of coming out of drama school yeah so you're you're playing you're in drama school but you're also playing guitar at that point yeah and you've got guys you play with and you start to run a night where you guys can jam what do you what are you guys mostly playing i mean it's more like rock band stuff then it's like kind of jam band right jam band yeah good so so then you're going to drama school and now in drama school in drama school what do you do like what's the program you learning shakespeare is that what you do yeah like this is like uh it's basically high school correct or no no it's like

college it's college yeah it's after high school yeah or no no it's like college it's college yeah it's after high school yeah it's it's university college yeah and um and the training is mostly shakespeare it's a you have a shakespeare class you do a lot of shakespeare plays but you do um movement and like it's kind of a bit wanky it's a bit it's a bit up itself because you're everybody takes themselves very seriously there's this whole kind of concept of – there's a cliche about breaking you down. And you do acting exercises where you stare into a mirror for 10 hours. And you did trust exercises and all this kind of stuff. Oh, you do that kind of stuff along with the classical stuff?

Yeah, yeah. And then classical stuff. And I think the English sort of theater sensibility is that that stuff is intertwined. And if you're really rebellious and you're reading books, I was reading interviews with Stella Adler and like that's, you know. Sure. That's kind of, even though that's like 50 years ago,

that's avant-garde in like English drama schools. Because they're not, they don't schools. Because they're not method. They're more classical. Not so much, yeah. And they're quite proud of that as well. They think that that's the route generally. But we also had some interesting directors who'd come in. They would expose us to these kind of individual minds

and creatives who would just do their thing and um and that was cool i don't know it's a way of becoming like people proof you're like in a theater company where every week you're doing a different play and rap kind of thing at the end and then right yeah and i was running club i was running the club nights and i was playing i was busking sometimes on the south bank like in l Bank in London, just going down with my guitar. I was running everywhere with a guitar on my back and going from somebody's house to play this jam, to do this thing. Was it always the plan, though?

Both of them kind of ran equal with you, music and acting. It wasn't like you were doing the acting, but you wanted to do more music. They were just sort of both what you did because it seems that way yeah at that point i didn't really believe that i would make it in either thing so it's like working really hard both and um i really wanted to take acting seriously because i've been a music scholar at school which meant that i'd been playing a lot of classical music so i had a good sort of took good chops for like theory and i played violin and stuff like that oh you can read music and play violin yeah is that you playing the violin on those early records yeah yeah that does it's some wild weird violin oh and there's some cello

as well that's quite out there as well. That's not me. The cello's not me. Cello's not me. That's my friend, Joe. Some out there cello. Where'd you pull the out there cello from? Like John Cale?

John Cale was an inspiration for that stuff. And like Warren Ellis, the way Warren Ellis plays with the bass. I wanted to have, anyway, you don't want to get to that first sound yet, but I wanted to mix loads of things together. Basically I wanted to have, well, that's, well, that's the thing that I noticed is that like, and I'm kind of curious about the folk, uh, you know, real folk, fake folk war, because out of nowhere, like a few months ago months ago i got i got turned on to the incredible string band oh yeah and and i didn't i didn't know their shit i didn't know anything

about them right you know i was going through this book of like the hundred you know essential rock records you know yeah yeah and and i have most of them and the ones i don't have i don't like so but there was the incredible string band. I'm like, I know nothing about these guys. So I bought one record. It wasn't even the Hangman's Daughter record. It was maybe the first record I got hold of, their first album. The Circle is Unbroken or something.

The very first one, yeah. And I was like, it might be self-titled and and i was like holy shit what the fuck is this yeah and then i got this the second record or the five thousand layers of the whatever yeah that right i think that's the best one yeah that's great the hangman's daughter is good but i think that the layers of whatever that's my favorite so in answer to your question i discovered that stuff like sort of early 60s i i suddenly discovered like like fairport convention and the incredible string band and a lot of those early island record things and the pentangle pentangle yeah and i was like this is really cool it's got such

a thing and it's so rooted in my own um tradition you know my my right uh this is this is my inheritance you know this is yeah yeah and um and i read i read this interview with with um uh fairport convention because i loved i loved richard thompson i love this album he's insane I read this interview with Fairport Convention because I loved Richard Thompson I love this album he's insane I know that guy he's so good he's amazing yeah

I interviewed him and then by coincidence he was playing the night before I played in Dublin and I got there and I was all jet lagged and turned inside out but I went down to the venue because he was playing there and I just interviewed him a few weeks before so he actually knew me he had a frame for me and I was able to hang out with him backstage

but I'd never seen him live before and man he can turn a guitar inside out yeah well he it's his it's his picking style that I copied that's what I went for and that album Leige and Leaf It's his picking style that I copied. That's what I went for. And that album... Leaves and Leaf?

Yeah, well, Leaves and Leaf, that was huge for me. But the stuff he did with his now ex-wife, with Linda. Oh, the Richard and Linda albums? Yeah. They're the best, man. They're so good. And I know that that stuff's all quite spread out, but hearing that stuff, you go,

this is rooted in something that I have a right to play. These songs are influenced by certain scales that are in my idiom. They're just in my bones through where I'm from, and I grew up playing. But where exactly? Britain or Ireland or what yeah i'm like you know my dad was sort of irish but yeah my and my my grandfather my mom's dad was scottish my mom's mom was welsh right and my dad's mom was was a cockney like a proper kind of londoner and so you

just you felt like it was you know it was a historically appropriate in that you know you lived and breathed this stuff somewhere through your genetics looking for some authenticity some sense of belonging and and I'd been the big thing I said I listened to a lot of punk and stuff growing up but the big thing for me was Dylan like huge like yeah still he's I'm a disciple of Dylan and and everything that that led me to you know whether it's like the Paul Busfield blues band or he's a he's a Jew from Minnesota but okay no that's what I mean but I'm like I I wanna I wanna go as deep as that but I can't I can't just rip off, so I have to be who I am. He ripped off everybody.

If you ripped off Dylan, you'd be ripping off everyone. I've since figured that out. But isn't that beautiful? That's amazing. It's cool. And Bowie was the same. He just smashed all these things together, and it became its own unique thing.

And that's the story that we told, which is cool, just to round back to that. To bring it back. So it was really, it was the kind of those, those kind of psych folk and rock folk bands of the mid to late 60s that kind of blew you away. I could see that, man, because I'd never heard, you know, I just got a Pentangle record

and I found them, I thought they would be a little boring, but I just got a pentangle record and I found them I thought they would be a little boring but I just got my first pentangle record after getting all of the fucking incredible string band records and they're equally as interesting because the way that the thing I liked about the incredible string band is that they were using bizarro

instruments you know international instruments but they weren't showcasing them they were just integrating them everything sort of had balance it wasn't like look it's not like brian jones on the sitar it was like they honored the sound and integrated it into something that felt very loose but had a lot of space to it but hung together so beautifully it was almost like each one of those records is some sort of you know kind of miracle of unity i don't know how they do it but it doesn't feel like they it sounded a lot of times like they were really playing all at once and there wasn't much uh separation yeah i i i oh man when i when i first had the

i've had like spiritual experiences listening to the incredible string band it feels like like an acid trip without taking acid it feels like it's that what you just said it's the looseness and and they're just yeah it's like their hearts are like searching for something together it's like so it's exquisite and um it's crazy man yeah i mean not not just that oh you, you have to read this book, White Bicycles. Joe Boyd, who produced them. I have it. It's really good.

But it tells the story of when he discovered them and recorded Nick Drake and all those guys. It's a really... And his first job was he was the tour manager. When he was like 20, he took Reverend Gary Davis and Rosetta Tharpe and sunny terry and brownie mcgee all around europe as the manager of this blues train tour and he's and he can't keep them together and they're all like fighting and it's really cool wow i gotta read it i've been sitting

on my bed table forever it's great all right so so now you've you've put together this this is what you've decided your legacy is. You've mashed up your brain with Fairport and Thompson and Tangle and the incredible string band and Dylan. And then you, but what sort of comes first for you? I mean, how do you decide? Because it seems like you started doing some television before the records, right?

There was a point early on where i you know i was really passionate about being an actor and i wanted to work in like new writing theater i wanted to work at the royal court uh theater which is like a political it's a writer's theater they just have the writer's name on the in in the headlights and uh i worked i i was in fact i was an usher at this place called The Bush, which was a room above a pub. And I saw these amazing little studio plays. It's a bit like the old days of Steppenwolf.

Little black box. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of theater that you feel is changing the world, you know, one mind at a time kind of thing. Changing the world with an audience of seven at a time kind of thing changing the world with an audience of seven yeah at a time yeah yeah not even sometimes Tuesday nights just three yeah um but you know I got out of college and of course you know and I got an agent and they're very sweet but you know

I was I was being sent up for these things that I would get on a TV show or something and realize that this isn't where my heart is. This isn't what I want to do. And I couldn't get a job in those places that I wanted, wanted to work. And so I, and then I, and then I put more into the music cause it was,

and I, I would use, I would get a TV job and I would use the money to pay my band so that I could just do the music. It seems fortunate that, you know, because you're 20 years younger than me. And you're liking a lot of the things that I liked, which was before my time as well. Even the 60s was before my time. We all are sort of lost in this wave of all that stuff that was done before us. But you're lucky that you romanticize this stuff

because it seems that, you know, whether or not that theater that you wanted to be part of was actually changing minds or not. And I had the same thing. You're like, this stuff is deep. It's making a difference. But just whether it was or it wasn't or whether or not, you know,

that sort of sentiment has repeated itself with young performers. It did enable you to have some sense of personal integrity around knowing what you didn't want to do and and kind of compelled you out of you know like i'll do the tv gig but i'll fund over money into something that i have complete control over in terms of my expressing uh my creativity absolutely yeah i mean i'm i i i'm i still believe you i think i think you know look at the velvet underground you know that's the the one that everyone quotes like you know the band that only 100 people um right bought records from and then

and then now you know and now every band you know and it all bleeds down. I just think, I think when you really invest in stuff with integrity, it pays dividends, like on a global scale, even if you only play that show for three people or whatever it, I don't know. I just, I think if you apply that to everything. Sure. I think that's true. And I, and I, I think that, yeah, I've definitely done my share of shows for nobody. And I think if anything, it does kind of harden your resolve around what you're doing and make you better.

And then, you know, there's always going to be like one or two people that are like, do you remember that night when you performed for four people and that one guy threw something at you? I'm like, oh, fuck. Yeah. He's like, that was the best show I ever saw. Like, well, glad you were one of the four that saw it yeah but but when you're going back and doing the music i mean you decide were you writing songs just on the guitar and then you know kind of building them out it's hard to describe what what i was doing i was like i was just kind of doodling all the time i was i was a lot of what I did was, was lyrically based.

You know, I was, I started, I started, um, I had lots of notebooks and all those years of being a student and being in London and being broke and being on tour and, and, and stuff, you know, I just, it was my way of processing things. I never kept a diary but i would get on the and we we've got a a tube it doesn't actually go in a circle anymore but you used to be able to go on the tube and go in a circle and just stay on yeah stay on the line and i would get on in the morning and and i would get off at four in the afternoon and and just go round and round and and i just was a a way of processing you know seeing faces

and i was scribbling my notebook if i didn't have anything to do yeah and or i'd ride on the bus and i i don't know i i i think i have add and i think that kind of thing suits me very well just i i digest the world and it comes out in lyrics and in little melodies and stuff. I've been walking around, you know, when you're, I don't know, just always humming little tunes and I'd have to run home and, you know, it's before like iPhones and stuff. So I'd have to, to find, and then I would find, go through, I had hundreds of notebooks. I'd go through the notebooks and match the right lyric to the right melody.

And it was like a jigsaw puzzle for me. the notebooks and match the right lyric to the right melody and it was like a jigsaw puzzle for me um and i was listening to so much music and collecting music because it was all still kind of cds and you know yeah almost it was that verge of i really hated when the digital thing came in because i was so proud of these boxes of c that I would carry around. I spent years. And now you don't even know where they are. I got a fucking, I got hundreds of CDs. I'm not even sure where they are.

But now I got the record thing going, which is out of fucking control. I like, I like my records. Yeah. I have, I love it. Yeah.

I've been buying old Fleetwood Mac record. I wrote off Fleetwood Mac. I was just like, oh, they're the, you know, it's the Stevie Nicks thing. I wrote off Fleetwood Mac. I was just like, oh, they're the, you know, it's the Stevie Nicks thing. And I fucking changed your mind.

You were the gospel, the gospel of Mark. Ha, ha, ha. So now you got all those Peter Green records. I do. And they sound so good on the vinyl.

Yeah. Do you know, you know that song? I think I played it for you, man. Have you listened to that, you know, Jumping in Shadows? Jumping in Shadows, yeah. Do you know that song? I think I played it for you, man. Have you listened to that? Jumping in Shadows, yeah. I listened to the original one. Did you know that the guy who wrote it

was kind of an odd British performer? And I just now, I forget the guy's name now. Do you know it? No. Hold on, hold on. Because he's kind of his own weirdo. But there's a live version that's really... That's the best.

It's amazing. That's the only one there is. Yeah. But the guy's name is Duster Bennett. Right. And I went out and got a Duster Bennett record. He's kind of like this dude he's almost like a one man band guy

and the weird thing about him I think you know John Mayall produced him let's see yeah he was a virtuosity he played he's like a one man band and he plays guitar drums and harmonica

and it's his song, dude. And if you listen to this, it's one of those moments you're going to listen to it and you're like, oh my God, Peter Green fucking lifted this guy's vocal styling. Right. I don't know what this guy was or what place he had in the world. Sounds like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins. Right. But it was, but,

but you know, it was like, you'll, you'll see it. Like, you're like, who is this weirdo? And I don't know much about him,

but I know that Jimmy Vivino said it's a Duster Bennett song. And then I went and got some Duster Bennett music and he's like totally his own thing, but you can completely hear his total influence on Peter Green. Okay, cool. I'm going to check it out. Duster Bennett, dude. You're going to be like, oh, my God.

You changed my life again. Well, I just found it, man. I don't know why it took me so long to check it out, because I just love the song. So I wanted to hear what the original thing sounded like. I don't think there is no studio version of that, of Fleetwood Mac doing it. Is there?

I haven't found one. No, it's only the live one that I know of. That guitar solo, man. Jesus. Yeah. No, he's great. And B.B. King said he's the only one, the only white guy that I can listen to.

Yeah, that made him cry. So how do you feel about Shakespearepeare you good with it do you get yeah i mean like you did you do a lot of shakespeare i love shakespeare yeah i did a lot i did um uh yeah early on i did that tour when i was right it was kind of writing the first album finger picking tour yeah the finger picky tour and and i um i loved it because i i say i was bored i was never really bored it was it was like i was the youngest one it was all male done not you know kind of modern dress but like we were like a traveling troop in in the manner of an old Elizabethan all-male troop. And we went all around the world.

We were in New York and the old Vic and London and Hong Kong, Australia. And we were like, and they were wild, these guys. They were like the wildest bunch of guys I've ever met. And really fun. Yeah, it was really fun. Peter Rogues. I nearly died. But it was, I loved. How did you nearly die?

From boozing? Yeah, they just, yeah. I won't go into details. They played hard. And they worked hard. They were putting you through your paces. Yeah. They were like, let's see what this kid's made out of.

I found some pictures. I found some pictures of that tour yesterday i thought fuck if anyone sees these they're just like it it was really it was quite debauched but like not not in a um morally bankrupt way just just you know no i get it like yeah the funny thing is is like you know you could have ended up one of them and you didn't no but they they i'm i know some of them still they're really anyway i can't but then i i'm not saying they're bad guys johnny but you know what i'm saying it's like you know you get taken through the paces and either you're gonna get a a monkey on your back or you're not there's yeah higher higher ambitions my friend well they yeah the boozing and the english theater thing is quite a quite a you know they go hand in hand they they have bar

in the old rep companies they have they have bars in the in the side of the stage you used to be able to go get a pint while you wait for your cue whatever and anyway they were straight out of that canon um and then i at the end of that tour i got i got a record deal i was in new york i got this call and um universal uh wanted to sign me for a five album deal to mercury which is the same label i just realized that i worked for in the movie that bowie yeah that you worked for so I was signed to Mercury for one album and then they they promised me the world and then they took it away and um they weren't they were really uh cowardly actually they were kind of so you did that you did the first album with them Alarum yeah I did that album i think they were a bit shocked at how much i went into the the oldie folky thing they were like where's the drums and the radio hits where's the

pop song yeah um so that but also it was the 2008 crash and uh the the downloads was killing the industry and and also razor light was the big out band on the on the label and they bombed their last album bombed so they were like having said you know you're a you're a career artist you could do whatever you want they said okay now give us five radio hits uh here's you know five thousand pounds you have to demo five radio surefire you know a-class bangers otherwise you're you're out and i and i i think i just handed in like the sound of like dogs farting like on purpose i just got out of the very happy it was a very uncomfortable thing for me actually i mean you know me i'm i'm kind of shy and i and i felt like they were

pushing something that i wasn't happy with and i don't know i don't know what they wanted from me i just anyway but how did that record do the first record? Well, it's sold considering there were no record sales at the time. It sold like, I don't know what the sales are now, but in that first year it did like 50,000 or something. It was pretty good.

And we were, we were on, I was the only Brit signed to Lost Highway in the States, which is, you know, Johnny Cash and Hank Williams and everything. That was a big kick for me coming to nashville for the first time and um going into those offices and and um but anyway i always felt like a bit of a an imposter not an imposter but just like

what am i doing you know like i should just be playing the small club, you know, just, I don't know. Like, I was always being pushed too hard. And I think I said yes to things. But you became very popular, right? Yeah, I guess so. I think if I was popular, I think it was because I was honest or trying to be honest all the time. Like, and that was what mattered to me i didn't want to sell any bullshit and ironically if you're popular because of that then you know pretty soon you're

going to be having yeah you know you can't see the people that you're trying to be honest to and and then you know there's nothing else to do but to sell bullshit so it becomes vacuous you know if you go out and play if you if you're that person and you want to play in clubs for 20 people but you sell out and you get put on a support tour for 50 000 people or whatever it's not right you know not not necessarily did but did you the you didn't do but you didn't do that you didn't go out of the support? No, we did a little bit. We did a bit of that. And some of our friends were being picked up.

With like Mumford & Sons and people like that. Because it feels to me that that was like the world that enabled the type of music you were doing to find some sort of public following. There was that kind of like folky singer-songwritery many people on stage with many different country instruments yeah but you know things it what it didn't when we started doing it i know this is sounds you know like i'm trying to claim it or something but there wasn't there wasn't anyone doing it weirdly it was the way to

go because it was rebellious to to you know it was the it was the yeah the existing pop music yeah there was it was the end of that what they called the new rock revolution like the strokes and the the hives all that stuff and and and me and my friends were putting on these club nights and we've we felt like i don't know we wanted to be original and so the way to be original was to to get your acoustic guitar and go that way go back yeah and then you know you know montfrey those guys are really sweet and but first time we came to america they were supporting uh me and laura marling and then they because of the formula of their music and just how it connects to people that it went huge and they and then they would invite us on tours so people always affiliated us

but actually we you know we were sort of around their record came out around the time our second record came out kind of thing um the record came out, kind of thing. The Mumford record. Yeah. But who are the other ones? Aren't there the Luminaires? Are they another one of that type of thing? I've seen their American, their, in fact, the guy. I think they're later.

The guy who produced our first record did that big hit for them. That we did, we made. Yeah. We made our first record in Seattle and our second record with an american producer because i was i think you know i wanted some of the energy of that like grunge thing you know the purity of right that and like i was in love with the the pixies and their their melodies and the chord changes i wanted to see what would happen if you put that in the voice of a cello and a guitar and a thing well it seems like you know between

shakespeare and uh fairport convention and incredible string band and the pixies and bob dylan like you're very you're sort of hyper aware of what of what you dig but like i noticed that there was sort of an evolution of production and sound going on throughout the four or five records, you know, as they evolved. I mean, you kept to the core,

you kept to the core of who you are in terms of writing and some of the instruments, but there was definitely a shift in, you know, guitar tone and the number of instruments. And, and certainly the, the production became more defined as you went on.

Were there hits? No, I mean, we're not a hit band. You know, that's just not something that I'm striving for. But it's weird. I mean, sometimes it happens, pal. Yeah, well, we have, yeah, we've, I've had, I suppose, oh, I get a bit, like, awkward talking about it, but we, you know, certain songs have become like radio favorites. The other day I was in the kitchen and so I wrote a song which was used for the theme tune for a show which was popular here called The Detectorists.

And I wrote this song and it was, and it's played on the radio like all the time. and it's played on the radio like all the time. And maybe once or twice a week, somebody will come up to me or tap me on the shoulder or write to me online and say, we're getting married in a week. You know, can you come and sing the song or we're going to play the song. Anyway. How often do you go to a wedding and do the song? Never, never.

I feel like that's a floodgate. I don't want to yeah but you i want to you you also said something that stuck with me when we were working together which was i was like i was a bit washed up with playing live at the time and i was telling you about it and you were like it's simple. Just do something new every time. Do you remember that? You said do something that scares you. And you said that every time you're working, you're doing a movie in a different town or whatever,

you book into the local comedy store and you do a bit. And since then, I've always, you know, on whatever it is, and also I say yes to things that I know will fucking terrify me. I was scared to come on this, by the way, because I'm a fan of the show. Right. But I'm now into doing shit that scares me. And it's because of you. So that's cool.

And how is it working for you? It's brilliant. My parameters, I'm living on a different scale. I know that the worst that can happen is i i freak out and it's not so bad exactly yeah but you know that and also it puts you into a sort of present you know what i mean like like you know you can it there there's a response you get to stuff that you've polished that's like rewarding but to sort of step out there you know and being the type of guy you are with the sort of desire for authenticity that there are those moments

where you take those kind of chances and the the it's a much different experience in terms of how you connect yeah you know and how it connects to you yeah you know if you're you know well good man well that's good you do you're riffing that's well, good, man. Well, that's good. You're riffing. That's good. Thank you. Yeah, man. Thanks for that. But alongside, I mean, there, there, it seems to me that you are known as a, as a pretty significant actor as well. I mean, it seems like, you know, like my manager, one of my managers, Kelly, she's a huge fan of your music. And I hadn't even, when I took the gig for Stardust, I didn't know you or your music. Right. And she's like a huge fan. That's cool. And I didn't even know that existed.

But it just means that you have a very, you know, a large and dedicated fan base that isn't, it's completely based on the sort of authenticity of your output, not because you're some sort of weird overproduced hit machine, right? Yeah. But it also seems that, you know, as an actor, you get a lot of credit as well. So that's sort of in terms of evolving that alongside of the music. I mean, how are you conscious of that process? How did you re-engage and, you know, transcend the sort of ennui or anger towards commercial acting gigs? the the sort of uh ennui or anger towards commercial acting gigs um what happened was i went off and did that you know when when when i got offered the record deal after the theater tour and i'd done a couple of yeah you know tv you know phil i did a movie and i think none of it was um particularly satisfying for my soul and And then I got the deal,

and then I was like, right, this is what I'm doing. And I tried to kind of resign as an actor. I wrote to my agents. I was like, I'm being a musician now. I'm out. I'm out. And then, because I just, I can't do it with any distraction,

or I'm giving it everything. I want to be. Right. I want my, you know. The music. Bleeding fingers. Yeah. And then.

Yeah, yeah. I did it for like four years or five, you know, we did two records and we taught, I was like on tour solidly and making the records. And we went all over the world and we had an amazing time and my band it felt like you know we spent we were you know you have to work so fucking hard as a band starting out you know we we were in the bus together driving ourselves sometimes when we went to america we'd all be in like one car, you know, with the drums like this. Um,

yeah. And driving coast to coast. We did that like eight times, you know, and, and then it was amazing, but I was so exhausted and, um,

I needed, I was like, I miss, I still had that inclination to tell really good stories, you know, and I loved doing theater especially. And then out of the blue I got. No, so you had a family, right? By this point, didn't you want to stay home?

No, I was, well, I was about to have a, I was about to have a kid. I didn't have a kid yet. I was, I was on and off with my now wife, you know, being in our mid-20s. And then I got an offer from the Royal Court, which is the theater that I was telling you about that I wanted to work at and it was the only place I ever wanted to work. And they gave me a great job in a play with Juliet Stevenson called The Heretic. And then my wife got pregnant.

And it's such a small theater that there's no understudies. And they were like, you know, the baby was due in the last week and you have to sign this contract so you're on stage every night no matter what. And so I had to agree with her that I would potentially miss the birth of the baby anyway i did the job and i didn't miss the baby you made it for the birth i made it for the birth but then okay so the stage so the shift to the acting was primarily you know you you started a

family you were exhausted from you know touring too much and you got a great opportunity with a theater that you respected and from there it just kind of grew out I guess huh kept going yeah and at that point I was I guess you know being offered the kind of jobs that I always wanted to do and it was a lucky it was a lucky thing I got to a place where I was like well it's either gonna happen or it's not and it kept happening and um so you got opportunities to do to do more shakespeare and then the movies and i guess that movie beast is the one that really was a huge deal people like that film i think it was because yeah i don't know it was jesse was amazing who was in it with me and it

was this director michael pierce he'd spent about 10 years developing the story and anyway yeah stuff shit like that that that was this is what i dreamt of all along i think it's because i looked too young when i was 24 to play anything interesting i looked like a 15 year old so i i had to look like a 25 year old as a 30 year old and then it got well now you're well it seems like you're you know you're aging well You got a nice family going. I was excited to do the movie with you. I'm glad that I'm glad that it's coming out. Yeah me too. I'm glad that the fucking the trolls have stuck They were watching the election now. They stopped. You know what it's like it doesn't matter. You know they you know it was It it ultimately and you know i got

to be honest with you a lot of them will see it yeah you know it's just they're not going to be able to help themselves yeah so fuck them yeah yeah yeah no exactly but i also i just the thing i want is because the trailer and maybe the name started, I don't want people to have the wrong impression. The trailer sets it up like it's this big bombastic accompaniment. It's a bad trailer. And the music, none of that music's not in our movie. Yeah, but also it's just that people are missing the idea that it's a small story about a guy wrestling with some demons,

afraid of becoming his his his uh mentally ill brother and and trying to sort of uh figure out who he is i mean it's really that's what it's about yeah it's not like some big bowie biopic but look once it gets reviewed and once people see it you know that that word will get out and i'll try to make that clear tonight when I do Fallon. Cool, man. Yeah, nice one. Oh, it's really good to see you. Great to see you too, man. Yeah, keep in touch.

All right, buddy. I'll talk to you soon. I'm going to send you some of the new stuff I've been doing. It's completely different. It's not the oldie folkie stuff. Oh, good. Yeah. More tone? Is this the new tone freak?

Loads of tone. Johnny Flint? Loads of tone. Okay, buddy. All right. Thanks, man. Yeah, lots of love Loads of Tone. Okay, buddy. All right. Thanks, man. Yeah, looks a lot. Talk to you later.

Thanks, Mark. Bye. All right, there you go. That was Johnny. Johnny, who texted me after that. He said he didn't like his interview. He thought he was waffly. Waffly. Maybe he was.

I don't know. But I think that's just the way he is. And also, the movie that Johnny and I are in, Stardust, opens this Wednesday, November 25th. I would see it. Even if you're a Bowie fan. People are liking it. And now I will play a beautifully distorted, slower instrumental version of a song that I wrote and I played for you last week. But it's a work in progress.

I'm done in this. I'm just trying to evolve it, and maybe I'll get in the studio with it when I write a couple other songs. But whatever. This is just a different approach to it. No singing. Just the slow, grumbly tube sustain

of a couple of P90s. guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo Boomer lives. Monkey. Lavanda. Lavender! Meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age.

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