WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1178 - Mike Campbell

Episode Date: November 26, 2020

Mike Campbell was more than Tom Petty's bandmate. He was more than a friend, too. He was a partner who had an almost telepathic writing relationship with his famed frontman. Mike talks with Marc about crafting so many of those Petty hits, how they developed the Heartbreakers sound, what song he played that made Tom put him in the band, and why he wants to keep playing guitar and writing music into his 70s.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck sticks? What the fuck tuckians? Happy Thanksgiving. I hope you did what was right for you and for others in your fucking life i hope you did that it strikes me that not a lot of people i don't think it's that they don't give a shit there's just a certain

a certain air of entitlement and uh rolling of the dice ah maybe I won't get it. I probably won't get it. If I do get it, it won't be the bad one. I won't get the bad one. That's how people start thinking about AIDS after Magic Johnson just kept living. That's why, maybe I, maybe it's not so bad. Maybe I don't have to,

maybe I don't have to rap this fucker. It's all bad. It spreads, it's bad. But look but look look if you're with family i think you should know this folks that this is actually our 12th thanksgiving show our 12th and generally as many of you know who've been listening to for years i usually have a little almost like a guided meditation for uh thanksgiving for listeners i guide them out of their homes out into the streets to cry and take a walk i got to put something together for this one this one's different i would like to mention that uh mike campbell is on the show today and he's the

guitarist was the guitarist for tom petty and the heartbreakers he's a member of the rock and roll hall of fame rolling stone named him one of the greatest guitarists of all times and he's just put out a record with his band the dirty knobs called reckless abandon now look we've been sitting on this talk for a while he pushed up the release of this thing because of covid and other things whatever it was but we recorded this in february february when the album was supposed to come out february before the plague february before the plague February before the lovely Lynn Shelton left this sphere February before my girlfriend died different fucking world man and I don't know if you can hear my, if you can hear that love was still alive, actively in my voice, that fear of getting a disease that could kill you, not in my voice, not in my heart, not in my mind.

Just the standard horrendous anger and terror of Trump. Now that's passing. But this was a different time and It was just back in February. And I remember I wasn't, I was trying to figure out, you know, how to approach Mike, you know, what to say to him. And then I realized how much, you know, I missed Tom Petty at that time and still do How much we all, if you think about it, how can you not miss Tom Petty? And I just remember that this is actually, you know, like before Lynn passed away, before condolences getting and giving them was a regular part of my life, I thought that the proper thing to do to open this conversation with Mike

was to offer my condolences for the loss of his friend Tom, which I did. It was a heavy moment, but it's a moment I'm very familiar with now from the other side. But I do think it was the right way to open anyway i'll share that with you in a few minutes i don't even know what's going on today is the dog show on the parade can't be happening i don't know what your situation is, so I'm going to kind of give a two-pronged peppy, a two-pronged pepster, a two-pronged pep talk.

First of all, as I've said leading up to this day, Thanksgiving, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I know a lot of you are like, you didn't get to travel. But think about it. Are you one of those people that actually on some level is dreading the travel? Every part of getting to where you're going is an aggravation. And when you get there, you put up with it. It's aggravating. But look, I mean, it's what you know.

I get it. Family's family. No matter how much you bitch, no matter how much you complain, no matter how miserable you are in it, it's predictable. You understand it. You lock into that groove. Even if you're isolating with your wife and your kid or your husband and your kid or your husband and your wife and no kid or your husband and your husband, whatever it is, if you've been holed up and just doing that thing, just scared all the time, maybe it would be a relief to be around people that just make you miserable in a predictable way not terrified just unhappy and questioning you know your entire ability to have any sense of well-being

maybe you miss that but if that's the position you're in if you've chosen not to travel because it's the right thing to do out of fear for yourself others your family take a minute and just do it actually try to be grateful take a minute sit down look at the people you love if they're with you if they're not there look at the mirror that's hard i know fuck that guy i know. I know. But look at her. Look at him and say, hey, hey, we're fucking alive, man. We're still alive. Some days I don't want to be. Some days it's hard, but we're still alive. We're getting through this.

We're getting through this together. Even though no one else is here, I know everybody else is experiencing roughly the same bullshit. And try to find it in your heart and in your mind to be a little grateful that you're pressing on, whether you want to or not some days. And if, look, if you've got a family and it's been difficult,

be grateful you have love and children in your life. Right? That you have love in your life life that somebody's there that loves you they've these children that you're okay i think we can all if it's possible and maybe you're not maybe maybe things are terrible and i'm sorry i'm sorry i hope things get better but there's got to be something you can find in your mind and in your heart to be grateful for. I mean, what else have we got? I don't know what's going to happen.

I don't know what happens when we go back to whatever we were, where we were. We just know going back to what we had, to what we were, to how it was. There's no going back. Things are broken. Things are dirty. Things are polluted. Things are germy. Divisions have been nurtured and will remain. But I think as we head into this new year, as we head into the holidays, as we head into

this day spent alone or with family however you feel about it i think a little gratitude's in order but also a little bit of like what am i gonna do are we all just sort of chomping at the bit to get back to what we were i don't know if that's gonna happen but what are we gonna do how are we gonna step up what changed what did we see that happened that would make us go you know what i'm fucking done being this being out of the loop i'm done being detached i'm done being apathetic i'm done only caring about myself i'm gonna do what i'm gonna do what are you gonna do figure it out in your gratitude in your, what are you going to do? Figure it out in your gratitude, in your heart.

How are you going to help? Right? So here's my standard. It's like, hey, if you're there, if you're locked up, if you're holed up with family, you know, if you're nervous, if you feel terror, if you feel uncomfortable, if you feel angry, you know, whatever, maybe you feel angry, whatever, maybe you're

regretting going, maybe you're nervous about COVID, whatever it is, get outside, no matter how cold it is, and take a walk. Take a walk around the block. Squirt out a few tears. Take some deep breaths. Take a walk around the block with a doggie or a cousin that you love or a kid. Just take a walk around the block. Get some air.

Look around. We're on the orb. The giant rock. It's still floating. Still spinning. It's okay. You can still breathe. I don't know how long that will be true for.

But you can right now. Just get some air. And also, the other thing I want to say is, you know, if you did have to go home. Or you are at home. Or maybe you've always been home. Or your folks just live down the street and maybe you're spending time with that family member who is a Trump supporter, which is difficult, which has been difficult for four years because you've been nothing but filled with bile and anger. relatives for being brain fucked by a grifter by a pig grifter president pig grifter by trying to continue to see your relatives or your brother your father your sister whoever as as the person you knew when you were growing up as the person that had a good heart once as a person who who seemed reasonable but somehow became addled with bullshit and just pushed their fear through the conspiracy template.

Now things are shifting. Hopefully everything will continue to shift. But I think you can now say to them that you understand them, that you understand them. If they're sitting there going like it was rigged, you know's like it's a lie you can just say look i understand i understand that your conception of america is different than mine that what you think is american is different than what i think of america as that what you understand this country to represent is different than me that i understand that you think that americans are supposed to lie and cheat and steal shamelessly proudly to to get what they want they that that you understand that they believe that lying and stealing, and overturning the will of the people is an appropriate thing to do to hold on to power of the autocrat leader that they like and believe, despite the facts.

that what you hoped for and what you want more than anything at any cost to anyone around you or the country at large and the planet is an authoritarian system with an autocratic leader who is willing to lie and cheat and steal and break the current democratic system we have in order to maintain power just say i understand I understand you now that America to you is based on minority rule and racism and limited choices for all. And that liberty is relative to those who are willing to lie and cheat and steal and believe in autocracy and authoritarianism and that racism is justified that the american melting pot that the idea of democracy that the idea of diversity that the idea of equality is uh is bullshit and that you understand that's what they think and that you feel better now after four years to see

clearly who you once thought were your friends or people you understood in your family that you now know okay you believe in authoritarianism you believe in minority rule you are sympathetic to racists and you think it's okay to lie and cheat and steal to subvert the democratic election process in order to gain power and that you believe that having no moral center and no sense of values is strength and just say that to them just say i get it now could you pass the potatoes and just say that to them. Just say, I get it now. Could you pass the potatoes?

Yeah, well, it's not going to, you know, you can pick that up again in four years if that's the way it's going to go. But right now, by the fucking skin of our ass, we've held on to this republic somehow and democracy as we understand it. But I get it. I get who you are. And we all know now.

We all know who your friends are. And we all know what the people that you believe in and who believe with you, what they look like and what they believe in. And a lot of it is just complicated bullshit and garbage. I understand you were fragile and vulnerable and you let a grifting pig fuck your brain up and you support it with internet sewage that you string together like a goddamn crown of thorns around your dumb head and justify your victimhood as an entitled white person. So go fuck yourself, grandpa. Can I get a little more turkey? Hey, so look, Mike Campbell was here,

as I said, in February before COVID, before the lovely Lynn Shelton passed away, and they moved up the release of the record, and now he's here. But it's interesting. Maybe you can hear a tonal difference. But I did choose, as I said earlier, to offer my condolences as a way to open this conversation, which is something I became very familiar with being on the other side of.

But to me, it felt right, because I miss Tom, and God knows he must have. So this is me talking to Mike Campbell, the member of Tom Petty's Heartbreakers. And his band, The Dirty Knobs, has a record out, Reckless Abandon, which is available now wherever you get your music. And this was recorded back in February, before everything broke. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die.

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18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. I'm assuming that your home studio is music-oriented. Oh, yeah. I make records.

Do you use those in the studio to sing into? I do. SM7? In fact, I use them on the record. You did? It's interesting you would do that, because I always used to have this posh, you know, old Neumann mic. Right.

And Draculius said, just use this for tracking. And I liked it so much, we ended up doing all the vocals on it. On one of these? Yeah. I'm not as much of a nerd as I should be. What is the difference? You had a big, what are they, Neumann? Well, the Neumann is what you call a condenser mic.

Okay. Condenser mic picks up all the sound. The whole room. Yeah. This is a directional mic. Right. It picks up right here. Right. And so if you're tracking with a band and you've got one of those condenser mics, it's a mess.

Right. But if you've got this down here, all it picks up mostly is your voice, so you can... Go. You can play it all live. Yeah. Did you guys do that with this record? We did, mostly live yeah of course some of the vocals i did over after but we tracked live with this and then i went to do the vocals

and i like the sound of this so we ended up using it it makes a big difference right to track it live absolutely because i like i listen to the record and it just seems like you know all of it seems so well integrated none of it because i think you guys you guys must did you do that on the last petty record too on the last couple of records yeah well there's lots of ways are we starting now sure okay there's lots of ways to make records uh and i've done before we start i do want to say yeah i'm sorry for the loss of your friend and you know i wanted to say that thank you sir and uh you know it's a caught me off guard there first thing i'm sorry buddy i'm okay but let's get that out of the way, yeah. I think I'm over it, and then somebody will say something, and I'll go, oh, yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. I'm working on it. Okay, good, man. It was rough. God bless him. But, yeah, we made a lot of records together, and in lots of different ways. And you can make a record, like with Jeff Lynn, for instance, building up the record maybe piecemeal.

Yeah. And then you have a record. Right. But you can feel that with a Jeff Lynn record. You can, and it's a great way to do it, but it's different. We got to the point where we had done several records like that. And then we decided, you know, it's really more fun to have the guys all around and try to get that chemistry in that moment where everybody breathes. And so Heartbreakers, the last two or three albums at our clubhouse, we just recorded their live with no headphones.

Where's that? In the hills? It's out in the valley. Oh, yeah? In the middle of the valley. Okay. In the industrial section. Yeah.

No headphones? No headphones. We had some little vocal monitors, kept them low. No kidding. And play in the room. Uh-huh. And so on the Dirty Knobs record, that's how I really prefer to do it. Yeah. It's organic.

We're all playing live. Right. The solos are all live and during the take. Yeah. And the vocals, some of them are live. Some of them I went back because I could do them a little better. Sure. But that's the kind of record I wanted to make, was everybody performing at the same time.

Yeah, and you know what's great about the record is I can hear your whole history of who you are on that thing musically and what influenced you. Do you know what I mean? There's a lot of stuff. I can hear Florida. I can hear the blues.

I can hear the country. You can take the boy out of the South, but you can't take. I can hear the blues. I can hear the country. You can take the boy out of the south, but you can't take the south out of the boy. I guess not, man. There's like that one cut on there with the southern boy one with that. I fucking love that, man. Thank you. That's one of my favorite tracks. Great drummer.

Yeah, who is that guy? Matt Logg. Yeah? What's his story? His story is he's played a my favorite tracks. Great drummer. Yeah, who is that guy? Matt Logg. Yeah? What's his story? His story is he's played a lot of sessions. He played on a Alanis Morissette hit, You Ought to Know, many years ago. Yeah.

And he was a session player. I didn't really know who he was. And he did some touring with Slash for a while there. Oh, really? So he's used to playing some big gigs. Yeah. And he, it's like all these guys, the Dirty Noms, just appeared. I didn't audition a band.

I just met the guitar player. He knew the drummer. Where's the guitar player from? He's from L.A. He's a Beverly Hills kid. Yeah? Yeah, he's been around. Studio guy or what?

Well, sort of. He had a band back in the 80s. It didn't happen. But mostly he's just, he didn't do a lot of sessions. He's just a player. He's just a good player. Yeah. And I met him at a session.

Uh-huh. But we just headed off. Uh-huh. And it was, and then, like I said, the band, the four guys, they were the first four guys that showed up. Wow. And all the personalities were just right. I mean, how lucky am I?

Yeah, that is pretty lucky. How'd you, but you didn't know, you didn't, like, you'd never really played with them before? No. That's wild. Yeah. So the other one,

I want to ask you some gear questions on Don't Wait. Was that P90? No. No. Don't Wait was the 59 Les Paul with the humbuckers on the bass pickup. Was that P90? No. No. Don't Wait was the 59 last Paul with the humbuckers on the bass pickup.

Okay, okay. Yeah, maybe even the tone all the way off. On the bass. Bass pickup. So that's where you got that grrrr. That cream sort of tone.

Yeah, yeah. The 59. My only 59, yeah. You've only got one? Well, yeah. I could barely get that one. It's crazy, right? It's insane.

I didn't know anything about this shit because I'm not a real guitar nerd, but I'm a big Peter Green fan. Okay. And I don't know, like, I didn't know that the 59 was a thing until, like, recently, but it's really a thing. It's the Stradivarius of electric guitar. What makes it that? You know, I think it was just that year, the wood, the neck was maybe a little bit thicker than the next year.

The pick, the alloy, the metal. Is it the sun? You got the red eye, the sunburst one? Yeah. That's the one, right? That's the one Walsh has. There's a story behind how I got that. Really?

I'll keep it short. No, no. We got time. They're ridiculously expensive. So the first time. Jason Isbell just bought one, and I know how much it cost. Okay okay well we won't get into the numbers but it's it's out there it's it's like crazy it's sick you know it's wrong it's as expensive as a card gets when it's not attached to a name there you go right you know what I mean

yeah so there's a guy from Hollywood named Albert who used to have a store called guitars are us and we would get guitars from him and so he had There was a guy from Hollywood named Albert who used to have a store called Guitars R Us. And we would get guitars from him. And so he had collected a few 59s over the years. And he called me up 10 years ago. Yeah. And said, I've got a 1959 Les Paul. Yeah.

And I said, well, you know, I've already got a Les Paul. You should try this one. I'll leave it at your house for a few days. And if you don't like it. He's trying to sell it to you. 10 years ago before they were cool or what? Right before they were catching on in a big way. But they were already like up there.

Yeah, yeah. So I played it for, and I was getting ready to go on tour. I played it for a few days and I thought, you know what? This is not jangly. I'm used to a. Oh, yeah, yeah. A Rickenbacker or something. I don't know that I need this, especially for that kind of money.

So I said, you know, I'm going on tour. Thanks anyway. And I gave it back to him. My wife calls me about of money. So I said, you know, I'm going on tour. Thanks anyway. And I gave it back to him. My wife calls me about a week later. She goes, you know what? I think you should get that. If nothing else for an investment, you know, she's one of those. And so I said, oh, okay.

Call him back. He'd sold it. So flash forward five years later, the one I have now, same story. Hey, Mike, I got this one. It's even better than the other one. Take it for a few days. And if like it yeah so i did and by now the number was five times what the other oh my god which i did not have on me at the time but once again i was getting ready to go on tour and i this guitar i fell in love with so i said look really and uh what if i give you half now yeah and half at the end of the tour so we worked out a deal

he trusted you and so that's the one I have now I used it on Mojo and Hypnotic Eye and Tom loved it we started making records around that sound and that's on that song you mentioned that's the one on Don't Wait Don't Wait is the thick

on the bass pick up the old Eric Clapton trick where you turn the tone all the way up, all the way off, bass pickup all the way up, and the amp cranked up, and it gets that kind of woman tone, they call it. Oh, is that what it is? And that's what I was doing. I was trying to emulate that sound on that song. Oh, that's a trip, man.

Well spotted. Yeah, and you got that through, what amps are you playing through? Well, mostly little Fenders. Oh, really? Fender Deluxes. Like that thing there? I got a 53 Deluxe in there. Those are beautiful.

Yeah. You use that. On that particular album, though, I was using this Duesenberg amp that they made, which is relatively small, that was modeled after that. And you got to crank them, right? Yeah. I mean, to get the tone, you got to- Yeah, you push it up there until it gets sweet but it's sort of

wild to me that you were that you were so used to jangly guitars you know like you know what was that you said 10 years ago yeah that when you bought that one because you i mean that was sort of the that because i you i identify you guys i connect you with fenders and rickenbackers exactly right exactly i mean that was the trip all the way from way back like when you started Identify you guys. I connect you with Fenders and Rickenbackers. Exactly. Right? Exactly. I mean, that was the trip. All the way back, like when you started? That was the stuff that we loved, that we grew up on. Like, we come from Florida, right?

Yeah, what was going on in Florida? What year, man? This would have been 72. 72. And it was right when the Allman Brothers were happening and Leonard Skinner. And all those bands were playing Les Pauls. Did you go see the Allman Brothers? I never saw the Allman Brothers.

I saw Skinner. We played some gigs with them. Back in Florida? On the back of a truck. Yeah, back in Jacksonville and stuff. And they were nobody yet either. How were they as guys? I didn't get to talk to them much. Really?

But we played some gigs with them and said hi to them and they were friendly. Were they good then? They're from Jacksonville, which is where I'm from. Yeah, they were great. They sound just like they do now. It's kind of crazy, right? You just have it hi to them, and they were friendly. Were they good then? They're from Jacksonville, which is where I'm from. Yeah, they were great. They sound just like they do now. It's kind of crazy, right? You just have it, I guess, at an early age. In the back of trucks, you played with them?

You said? Yeah, it was a flatbed truck set up in a field. You know, and there was like 200 hippies there. It was a festival? It was a so-called love-in, I guess. Oh, yeah, back in the 70s? But it was funky, but it was beautiful, you know? Yeah, yeah.

But to get back to my point, a lot of bands in Florida around that time were going after the Allman Brothers sound. Like two, three guitars? Thick. Yeah, right. And we never really liked that. We were inspired more by the Beatles, the Stones, the Animals, Kinks, the bright, jangly, bright, you know. Really? Kinks were played in there early on? Oh yeah, the Kinks are a major

influence, yeah. Really? So when the Heartbreakers started making records, we had Rickenbackers and Fenders mostly. Yeah. And that became the sound that we were used to, the bright, jangly sound. So the Les Paul was another world for me. I had to get used to it, but then I found a way to

do it oh that's that's wild but it took a while huh a little while yeah not too long because like but I mean I remember like listening to um like the like the first Heartbreakers record like that it's so weird when you know to think about these records because like I've listened to that first Heartbreakers record you know thousands of times wow i mean you know what i mean all my life thank you i listened to it i remember i got it in high school but it's strange that my favorite songs on there are not that you know like mystery man what a great fucking song that is and that's a one take yeah really yeah and who wrote that you and tom tom wrote that song yeah i wrote the guitar riff is great man it's like straight up country riff almost that was my fender broadcaster yeah tom

played a strap he had an old broadcaster yeah and that was my main guitar but that song is a perfect example tom had the course right yeah yeah and it turned into that song. Very Van Morrison influenced. Sure. But you let those open strings ring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we stumbled on that. Yeah, and also Wild One Forever. Oh, yeah. I fucking love that song. I do too, thank you.

He sings the shit out of it too. It's a real teenage kind of song. It is, because I was a teenager. Well, there you go. I just sit there thinking about the girl that I couldn't get. I'm still a teenager in heart. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you got to. You got to be. So moving through all that stuff, I mean, did you guys, what, are you thinking about it? Yeah, it's great. You've been good memories. Well, yeah, so it's always the songs for me that, of course, American Girl, but I mean, all the other ones. That was my first Rockin' Around With You, too, that guitar.

That was crazy, man, that sound. What was that? You remember? Yeah, Rockin' Around With You was the first song I ever wrote with Tom, and it was my riff. Yeah, yeah. Oh, right, right, right, right. The broadcaster. Yeah.

He wrote those great words to it that we were off and running. Oh, man. And so before that, though, when you guys were just hanging around in Florida, like, I know you guys did the Mud Crutch. You guys played. That's when you started with those guys? Yeah. Tom had a band called Mud Crutch. Yeah.

And then I joined. Yeah. But were you just out there? I remember seeing the documentary, and you sort of got captured as this guy. You kind of lived somewhere in the country. And you're some kind of guitar hermit. I know, yeah. Some sort of young wizard.

Well. Yeah. The wizard part. But yeah, I had a house out in the country with my drummer, Randall Marsh. Uh-huh. And I had seen Mudcrutch play at the college. Yeah. And they were kind of a Burrito Brothers type band.

They were doing country numbers? Country rock with harmonies. Yeah. And until then, I'd been in like blues type bands. And then, so my band broke up and I told the drummer, I said, they're auditioning a drummer. Yeah. And you ought to try them out. So he invited them out to our little farmhouse.

Right. I was in the back room with my short hair and my cutoffs really and yeah and uh the story goes you know yeah that he auditioned and they said oh we just lost our guitar player do you know any guitar players yeah well there's this guy in the back room you know and i had a japanese guitar a little 60 dollar goya uh-huh and so i come walking out with that and they looked at me and you could see their face oh no how do we get out of this you know i'm stuck with this guy the rest of the afternoon yeah and they go so um where you know you want to play something what do you know i said well how about johnny be good sure you know we played the song and we got to the end of it and Tom goes I don't know who you are but you're in my band

and that's it just happened just like that it was destiny it was on Johnny B. Goode Johnny B. Goode holy shit I figured that's something

that everybody knows you know I knew it really well that's all I know I'd studied Chuck Berry you had so I think it impressed them that I knew

knew the right way to do it that's the interesting thing about that thing about Chuck Berry because you know when I the more I pay attention to hearing you say that and also

seeing that doc with Keith when Keith did the Chuck Berry. Hail, hail, rock and roll. Right. I'm a Keith freak but it's not as simple as I can't get an auntie and auntie. There's a bounce to it. Oh yeah. Well he stole that from Louis Jordan, the swing band.

Okay. It was a horn kind of thing. It wasn't Jimmy Johnson? Oh, yeah. Well, he stole that from Louis Jordan, the swing band. Okay. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It was a horn kind of thing. Yeah. And he made it. It wasn't Jimmy Johnson? Well, he was in the band, but those lines, a lot of them I've read, I've read that he got from the Louis Jordan swing band. No kidding.

Yeah. So they have a swing. Right. But he bounces on that guitar. It's a weird fucking rhythm, man. It's the rhythm. Yeah. He found it, yeah.

Did it take you a while to get that? I'm still working on it. Right. Because, you know, that's a weird fucking rhythm, man. It's the rhythm. Yeah. He found it, yeah. Did it take you a while to get that? I'm still working on it. Right? Because, you know, that's a good point. Because a lot of people play Chuck Berry and they don't play it right. No. They play the notes. Right.

But it's all like this. Yeah, yeah. And his thing is... Yeah. It's almost like a shuffle and a straight beat together. It's a weird bounce, man. And when they meet in the middle, that's the Chuck Berry magic. Yeah.

And that's hard to do. Dylan knew how to do that. Oh, did he? Yeah, but that's interesting you would bring that up because that's, you can tell somebody really got dug in.

They don't play it straight, just straight. They play it with a little swing and bounce to it. Dylan could do it? Yeah, he knew the difference. Really? Yeah.

Did you talk to him about it? Yeah, we did. Did you talk specifically about it? Well, I'll tell you a story about that. We were in rehearsal. Yeah. And he was on electric guitar. For what?

The tour? For the tour that we were going to do with him. And we were playing some Chuck Berry-ish thing. Uh-huh. And I don't know if this is technical, but most of the band was going, junk and junk and junk and junk and junk, right? Right. The bar band way to do it.

Straight, the straight beat. Yeah, yeah. Which is okay. Yeah, yeah. Which is okay. Yeah, sure. And then Dylan was playing the other junk, junk, junk, junk, junk against it. Yeah. And at first I was thinking like, that's wrong. He's not playing with us.

Yeah. And then we stopped and he goes, I'm looking for that middle point. Yeah. If I play this and you play that and we meet in the middle, that's where it happens. And he taught me that. That was like something you learned. You're well into your career, man. Yeah.

But you got as a musician. I never heard it explained quite that way. But then it made sense to me. Well, that's what I realized a few years ago is that with blues or with that kind of rock and roll, like any bar band can play it. That's right. Right?

Anybody can do it, which is the problem and the beauty of it. Yeah. But in order to own it, you got to find your source. And if you don't go back and really figure out what the fuck Chuck is doing, where are you going to start from? Well, it's a mysterious thing, swing. Uh-huh.

You know? Yeah. It is, right? You need a drummer that can do it. True. Yeah. The whole band has to do it yeah to work but yeah and it's even hard to explain but you know when you feel it yeah yeah yeah yeah well i just

remember that petty song that went down swinging i'm a big three chord guy yeah yeah i like three chords too right three chords and the truth right that's exactly right that's what country music is did you watch that documentary i haven't seen it dude. Dude, you've got to watch it. I'm dying to see it. It's crazy. I hear it, yeah. It all goes back to Jimmy Rogers and the Carter family. That's where he starts. Perfect. And you work with Cash, too, right?

I did. On the first one? On the first American one? Yeah, quite a couple of them. The first one, and the Heartbreakers did a record with him, too. Oh, that's right. With Rick Rubin. With Rick Rubin. But I spent a lot of time with him and that was uh one of the greatest times of my life

really well you seem to be sort of like you know pick stuff up and you always you know open to sort of new shit and learning say what did you what did you take from him oh so much yeah mostly what a what a beautiful human being he was uh-huh I could tell you a story to demonstrate that. When I was growing up, my dad was in the Air Force. He'd come home and lay on the couch, and he'd put on either Elvis or Johnny Cash. Yeah. And he'd lay on the couch and just zone out. Yeah. And I would go, what is he hearing?

What is... Right. There's something going on here. Okay. So that was my first introduction to that music. So when we were on tour, the Heartbreakers were on tour in Europe, and the Highwaymen were in the same town as us. I think it was Copenhagen.

So that's Chris Christopherson, Waylon, Johnny, and Willie? Yes. Okay. And I had never met Johnny before, but we went backstage before the show and were introduced to everybody. And Johnny was sitting there. Of course, the first thing out of my mouth was, Johnny, you know, my dad played your records all the time.

I love those records. And I said, my favorite song is Don't Take Your Guns to Town. I don't know if you know that song. Yeah. And he said, oh, yeah, we're not doing that tonight. I'm really sorry. Okay. But.

So they get up in the middle of the show. All of a sudden he goes, I'd like to do this song we don't normally do. And he played that song for me. So that's Johnny Cash. That's him in a nutshell. Beautiful human being, very generous. And how did it make you cry? Kind of, yeah.

Yeah. And we were really close, and he treated me really nice. And of course, musically, he was just inspiring. And it was great to be around him it's interesting because like you know for a guy because a guy like that who who was such a rock in terms of you know how you know he handled like how he was musically like you know you he was essentially johnny cash but somehow or another you know you know you guys you could back him and it would all make sense. That's how big a personality he was, I guess, right?

You're never going to overcome Johnny Cash. No. Right? No, when he would walk in the room, it was Johnny's room. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. He was one of those guys and it was great.

Of course. And he was so kind and open and talented. How much did country play into your early life outside of your old man and Johnny Cash? I mean, were you a country guy? No, I was always kind of rock and roll. Yeah. The Beatles, the Stones. But I also went back and dug up Muddy Waters, Helen Wolfe.

You had, right. Hank Williams. Oh, right. I grew up right at the end of that stuff. Right. And I soaked it up. You got to go back for the muddy. Yeah, well, I did.

Yeah. I mean, there's no other way to go. That's the only way it's available. I know. And it was a tribute to a lot of the English groups that called attention. They brought it, man. These are black artists in America. You're not overlooking. Right.

Jimmy Reed. Jimmy. Alan Wolfe. Yep. Willie, Willie Dixon, Muddy Waters. John Lee Hooker. You did a John Lee Hooker groove on this record. Bo Diddley. All those guys. But you did the Don't Knock the Boogie. It's like straight up Hooker, man.

Straight for it, yeah. Right? Yeah. Did you ever play with that guy? Yes, I did. A couple of times. He sat in with us. Really?

What an amazing guy. Up in the Bay Area? At the Fillmore. Yeah, right. We did a stand up there back in the late 90s. He came out. With the Heartbreakers? Yeah.

And you guys just walk in, right? Oh, yeah. One chord. Just follow John. I'll tell you a great story about John Lee Hooker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife and I, you know,

the Golden Bear in Huntington Beach used to be this great club. Uh-huh. And my wife and I went down to see him, John Lee Hooker. Yeah.

And he had a pickup band. Uh-huh. And, you know, we're sitting there and it's good and they get into the boogie thing, right? Yeah.

And they start doing this boogie. Right. And I go, oh, yeah, this is so great you know we're here with him yeah and it went on for like 10 minutes right and then it got real quiet just still grooving and he started going i'm the boogie man yeah you know for another two minutes

i'm the boogie man that's all he said yeah and then it got real quiet and looked at the audience he goes i started it and i just wanted to fall out of my chair. Yes, you did, sir. And thank you for reminding me. He did, man. What a cool guy, yeah. I talked to Buddy Guy, and he's got some great stories about Chicago and about those dudes and about how people... It's so amazing to hear those stories about those guys that invented that shit. He started it.

Right. Did you ever listen to that hooker? How'd you like to be the guy that started the boogie? He did, and no one can do it. And you can't argue. You're right. Yeah, that's your thing, man. You got it.

Like, did you ever listen to that hooker and heat record? Yeah. Because that's an amazing record where he's playing, and he's got canned heat there, and he's got that guy, Rob, what's his name? Wilson, the main dude. They're all like blues nuts, right? Yeah, Wilson.

Yeah, Al Wilson. Al Wilson. Is it Al Wilson? Al Wilson. And he kept saying, I can't shake you guys. You must have studied my records. Because he got that guy in harp going. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, man. They were a cool band. I love that shit. Have you seen the Paul Butterfield documentary? No. Is it on Netflix? You would love it. It is.

I found it the other day, and it's got a lot of footage from Chicago with Muddy and Howlin' Wolf and Mike Bloomfield, which you hardly ever see of them starting out. You would love it. He's a 59 Gibson guy, right? Bloomfield and a Strat guy. He started with a telly. A telly. And then later on, he moved up to the Les Paul, yeah.

But that's a great documentary. I've got to check that out, because I just watched, I just got the Criterion channel, and I watched some of the outtakes from the Newport Folk Festival, and they had a Paul Butterfield run. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, I never, it was so funny, because like, I'm watching it, and he's playing the harp like, you know. Upside down.

He's playing it, but he's playing it out here. Right. Like, out here. And I'm like, why is he so far away from the mic? And you know. Upside down. But he's playing it out here. Right. Like out here. And I'm like, why is he so far away from the mic? And he kind of builds it up. And then the last verse, he leans into that bullet mic. And he just, it was all built. It was a trick.

I learned something about him, too. You know, the harp is usually low notes and high notes. Yeah, right. He plays the other way around. Really? So he plays it upside down? Yeah. Huh.

I wonder if that's how he learned. That's probably just how he picked it up and learned that way. Who's playing on your record? You? The harmonica? Yeah. Yeah. It's fun, right?

Yeah, harmonica. Anybody can suck and blow. Yeah, man. I can't play like Paul Butterfield, but I can get a few notes in there. But that's the thing about, you know, that's the other thing I noticed, I realized about music recently, and I just talked to Kathy Valentine from the Go-Go's. I know her. Yeah, she's sweet.

She's got a new book and it's nice. But we were just talking about how, you know, like it's not about virtuosity. It's about, you know, you coming through your shit. It's how you play it.

Tone. It's just, you know, the point she made. Stevie Ray Vaughan. She's from Austin. He's from Austin. Okay. And Stevie Ray, you play it tone it's just uh you know it's like the point she made she stevie ray vaughn she's from austin he's from austin okay and stevie ray you know they were talking about jimmy vaughn you know who's great right love jimmy and he said stevie ray said when i play i put everything i have into it when my brother plays he put in about 10 because it's a choice you know because that's where

his sound is I see that isn't that wild like you know it's not about like we were just talking about harmonica you don't have to be

Paul Butterfield to sound like you feel something through an instrument right true the feeling yeah

but like when you were starting out though you know your idols were who you know we discussed some of your heroes. But, I mean, what is it that, because you play a specific way and you leave a lot of space and you're very tasteful and you're not showing off and you know how to adapt and, you know, you can clearly tell who you are.

I mean, did you make decisions early on to not do certain things and do certain things? I didn't make any decisions. I just learned from the records I liked, you know. And who were the biggest ones that taught you how to play guitar over and over again? Well, the first things I heard were Luther Perkins and Scotty Moore. Oh, yeah. Elvis' guy? But then when I got to my age and the Beatles and all those British bands came along, I just was gone on that, you know.

And a lot of those songs are three-minute songs. They have guitar parts, but they don't have long solos. Yeah. And that's just how I thought you do it, you know? And that's what I wanted to emulate. Did you like George? Oh, yeah, I loved George. And you got to work with him, too.

I did, yeah. You and Tom and George did. I was blessed to. The Wilburys? Yeah, I was around for some of that. Yeah. And what, did you work with him other than that? I did a concert with George at Albert Hall once.

Really? He asked me to play a concert with him. And we did a lot of, you know, he worked on Full Moon Fever a little bit, so he was over and around that. With a Jeff Wynn record. Yeah, George is a whole other book. I mean, I could tell you what a wonderful guy he was. But a great influence guitar-wise, his guitar parts.

And I think when I play guitar, I try to emulate those guys. You know, Keith and George Harrison. Keith Richards? Keith Richards. Yeah. And all those, the bands, the Kinks, Animals, their guitar parts were really simple. Yeah. But melodic.

And they don't get in the way of the song. They do a job, and then they allow the song to blossom. Well, that's interesting to separate those two because I'm a huge Keith guy. I'm a George guy to a degree, but I don't know that I really can understand or appreciate specifically

what he brings to the guitar that makes him who he is. George? What is that? Yeah. yeah well he's a melodic player yeah and he's got a little bit of chet atkins finger picking here okay and he's just a he's just a feel player he plays with a great feel there's a sadness to it too a sadness a soul he plays with soul especially when he started playing slide he found a whole new voice for. And he was just a genius at taking those songs, those Lyndon McCartney songs, and finding bits for it. Right. Like, for instance, that song, You Can't Do That.

Yeah. Da-na-na-na-na. He told me one day that they were recording that, and he didn't have that guitar part. Ah. And they had the chords, and they said, okay, we're going to do this track now. George, do something. Yeah.

And so he just went, which is the lick. Yeah. It makes the song. Right. And that's the kind of player he was. He could come up with just the right piece

that fit the song. That's amazing. And that's a genius. Yeah. And all those songs, if you listen to the guitar closely, it's pretty brilliant playing. Yeah, it's kind of, no one sounds like that.

No one, it's the song. And those ones that he wrote early on, to me, were just haunting. Like, Don't Bother Me. Yeah. Like that song. Great song, yeah. Right? Mm-hmm.

And did you watch that, Doc, the Lennon thing, the Above Us Only Sky thing? Yes, yes. Did you see that moment where George comes in and he's got this light and Lennon's working something on the piano out and he just looks at George for guitar support? And it was like nothing was said and it was right there. Yeah. And it was so moving to me. It was so clearly symbiotic that he completely trusted George in that moment. Well, that's his genius, George's genius.

Another example, which I read, and I love her. Oh, yeah. Dong, dong, dong, dong. They didn't have that. That was George. Oh, wow. George came up with that. Wow.

So, like, what was your relationship with Tom along those lines in terms of songwriting? Well, it was telepathic, like you said. There was not ever much discussion. I had an affinity for him, and he had an affinity for me. And he would usually write songs on his own when he did and come in on the acoustic or just rhythm. Yeah. And I would just sit down like you mentioned Mystery Man. He started playing.

I don't know. I just knew what he wanted and I was able to make it work with him. Yeah. We had that thing. It was beautiful. Yeah. It's a once in a lifetime thing we had. Yeah, man.

And so like in all the songs, so usually what would happen is he'd have it on the acoustic and you guys would build it out. He would usually have chords in the rhythm and sing. Right. And so you'd figure out a guitar. We would join in. Right. We would join in and it always seemed to find a place.

Yeah, and I talked to Ben Mon a while back. He's sort of like a wizard of a kind, huh? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. of a kind, huh? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. It's sort of interesting because when I listen to your solo with the Dirty Knob solo, like there's something about that record

and maybe like Mojo or maybe one of the later records of the Heartbreakers, but there's something about how you seem to cover, it's almost like the band. Like, you know, this is American music in all its ways.

Do you dig what I'm saying? I know, but I didn't think about that. No in all its ways do you dig what i'm saying i i know but i didn't think about that no i know but you know what you're saying like you know that's a nice compliment right because like i think like tom petty and i you know i go and you guys the tom petty songbook is like a fucking classic american thing man well thank you right i'm proud of those songs yeah yeah you Good. And I think that's why the Heartbreakers lasted. One reason they lasted so long is the songs are good, and they hold up over time. Yeah. Oh, for sure, man.

Oh, definitely. But now, when you go out with, because I, how did the Fleetwood Mac trip happen? Well, Tom passed away, and I took some time, time and then i realized i'd always thought my band the dirty knobs that if the heartbreakers ever take a hiatus that's what i want to do i was at the second to the last show by the way at the bowl oh yeah well good you got a piece of that last so um i was i uh took some time to grieve a little bit, and then I started working on the Knobs record, and we had it like three quarters or more done,

and then I got the phone call from Mick one day. Had you met him before? I had met him, yeah, I'd done a session with him once, but I didn't know him that well. But I know Stevie really well. Anyway, he called up and said, you know, I've been listening to your catalog, and we want you to join, I've been listening to your catalog and we want you to join the band. It's not an audition.

We want you to join the band. So I immediately thought, okay, we're joining the band. We're going to make a record. And I said, well, it starts with the songs. He said, oh, well, we have some tour dates first. We have some tour commitments. I said, okay. Tricking you into the tour.

Well, not tricking me, but I was fine with it. Sure. That's just the way my mind works. Right. Let's make a record. So I put that on the back burner, which is fine. Yeah. And I said, okay. The tour ended up being a year and a half.

And God bless the knobs, they waited for me. Yeah. And so when that was over, I went right back to work on the record. And, you know, in a week or two, I finished it. But, like, when you go, when you're stepping into those songs, right? Yeah. I mean, that's a heavy catalog. That's some big shit. Yeah, great songs. Big songs. finished it but like when you go when you're stepping into the to those songs right yeah i mean that's that's a heavy catalog that's some big shit yeah great song big songs now and lindsey's very specific type of player absolutely so what i didn't see any of the shows what do you do do

you do his licks or what absolutely well you have to on those songs uh it was a challenge for me because i wasn't used to doing that i was used to playing my own songs and things. Playing Tom Petty songs, too. Yeah. You know, heartbreaker songs. Yeah, songs that I came up with. Yeah, exactly. So here I was, you know, like you take any of those songs, like Dreams, it needs those guitar lines or the song doesn't work.

Right. So I took the challenge on and I dug in and learned them. Yeah. And played them. Yeah. Accur them. Yeah. Accurately. Yeah. And then other places on other songs where they wanted something, me to step out, I could

add my own thing. But I looked at it like my job is to honor these songs. Right. And to honor this band, which I love, and do the best I can to recreate those guitar parts the best I can. Yeah. And that's what I did. And did you have to figure out the equipment and shit?

No. I used my amps and my guitars, but I did have to study the records quite a bit and really dig into, what's he doing there? What is that note? And I'm like, oh, I get it now. Okay. Now, when you do that for someone like him,

I assume you respect him as a guitar player. Absolutely. Are you like, when you kind of have to figure out someone else's shit at this point in your life where you're sort of like wow that's interesting you know that he made that decision well you know it's very similar to when i first started learning guitar right i listened to a beatles record what's he doing right and the court you know in the course of that challenge yeah you learn things right that you can take from it yeah and so i had the same experience with that i looked at like or if say if the heartbreakers were going to learn a cover

that had a guitar part in it i'd go to learn it so like at least right respect respect how it started yeah and i found it was a very interesting process to to study those songs yeah and come and figure out what was going on on the guitar and i learned learned a lot. Yeah, because he's a different kind of guitar player than you. He is, yeah. In some ways, we're similar, though. Yeah. Like, say, on Go Your Own Way at the end, the soaring guitar.

Yeah. That kind of stuff, we play in a similar way, sort of. Yeah, yeah. And so those things were easy. Some of the more intricate finger-picking and little lines he was doing took a little work for me to pick it out and figure out what was going on. But I think I got it down

pretty good. So are you going to make a record with them? Maybe. I don't know yet. I know we're going to take a year and a half off and then see what they want to do. He's a hell of a drummer, isn't he? Oh, that rhythm section? I love that every night. John and Mick. Were you a Peter Green fan?

Yeah, I like Peter Green. Yeah. I liked Paige and Beck and Clapton. Yeah. And Mick Taylor maybe more. Sure, sure. That's my taste, but Peter Green was definitely up there. Yeah.

You ever play with Mick Taylor? I haven't, but I would love to. I love his playing. Yeah, I haven't heard him in a while. Oh, he's good. Yeah. He has that feel. Yeah, oh yeah.

It's slippery, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you, okay, like I didn't realize until I was kind of poking around doing research, because me and my buddy Dean were talking about Don Henley. And you made some big songs with him. Yeah. I mean. Two.

Yeah, the Boys of Summer, right? Right. And now what was the process of writing with Don Henley? Well, it's the same as writing with Tom. Oh, yeah? What I was doing with Tom was I would put music together and make a demo with all the instruments. Yeah. Show it to him.

Uh-huh. And if he liked it, he would start singing over it and come up with a song. Uh-huh. And it was the same with Don. I had the piece of music. Yeah. I went over to his house with a little cassette player and sat down at the desk. Yeah.

He listened in total silence, right? And then I said okay and left and on the way home the phone rings I got I wrote the great song to your music. I can't wait to do it It happened just like that. But how does it call like that happen? Why are you over there at Don? Well, Jimmy Iovine? Oh, okay Jimmy Iovine he produced had heard that that demo on mine and I call me said, you know, Don Henley's looking for songs. Right. I said, what kind of song does he want?

He said, an image maker. Interesting. But you were already well on your way with the Heartbreakers, right? Oh, yeah, we were already deep in that. And Iving was your guy, right? He produced Damn the Torpedoes and a couple of albums in that era with us.

Right, okay. Our first mainstream commercial breakthrough was produced by Jimmy Ivey. He made the huge thing Damn the Torpedoes yeah with Raffy G and Here Comes My Girl and all those songs

that was Jimmy Jimmy Iovine yeah and then oh so okay so that was your fourth record

or your third our third record okay so that was the big record it changed everything yeah for us yeah yeah

and so he's sort of like yeah hey Don's looking where you got going you got anything sitting on the well he Yeah. And so he's sort of like, yeah, hey, Don's looking. What do you got going? You got anything sitting on the... Well, he's an interesting guy. He's brilliant because he also took...

We had Stop Dragging My Heart Around, which I had written with Tom. Yeah. And we had cut it and we weren't so sure about it. He said,

I think that could be a duet. He just happened to be doing a record with Stevie Nicks. That's how that happened. So he just took this over here and put this over here.

That's how that happened. Yeah. Are you guys still here and put this over here. That's how that happened. Yeah. Are you guys still friends? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have a deep connection. And your first two records were on Shelter Records? Right. Was Leon around?

Leon was around. He didn't play on those records, but it was his, excuse me, his producer, Denny Cordell, who produced us, and so we were around his house. How did that happen with Shelter? So you guys are, because I remember, like, what I remember when I was a kid, when the first Tom Petty record came out, like, it didn't really catch on here until later, right? Right.

It was like England was a big deal, and then it came back around, you know what I mean? Exactly, yeah, that's how it happened. But with Shelter Records, did you know anything about Shelter Records? No, we were in Florida, and we made a demo and sent it out. And I think maybe London Records called back and then Shelter called back. And Tom liked Denny Cordell. We all did.

We just hit it off. And so it was his label. We were going to go out to California. We stopped at Tulsa on the way where Leon had a studio. And met Denny and did a little recording. And then we went on out to California. We stopped at Tulsa on the way where Leon had a studio. Tulsa. And met Denny and did a little recording and then we went on out to LA and Denny took us under his wing

and helped us get started. The first couple, huh? Yeah. Because like... It was essential. Yeah? You learned a lot from that guy? A lot.

He was great at saying, well, you know, this song, not so good. This song, go more in this direction. You know, he had an overall view. He wasn't a musician but but he knew songs, and he knew style, and he could tell which direction we should go in.

He helped us that way a lot. Because I know that Leon Russell, he brought in that later Freddie King shit. True, and J.J. Cale. J.J. Cale. All that stuff. It was a great time. Dwight Twilley was on our label right right it was a really interesting time a lot of stuff was going on and then what i mean

like i remember i don't i'm sure you've covered this shit before but i mean obviously but like what makes the big shift i mean jimmy comes in but you guys were between labels or he took you how does that happen well it's a long story, but we were on Shelter Records, and they were having some financial trouble, and they sold their label to ABC Records without telling us, and then ABC sold to MCA without telling us. So we went, wait a second, you can't do that.

We don't wanna be on that label. We're not gonna record. For MCA. Yeah, so we did a lawsuit tour. Yeah. To make money because we weren't going to, we were playing hardball.

We're not going to record until you fix our deal. Right. Because they had us under the old deal which was kind of a shit deal. Yeah, right. I won't go into details.

Right, the Creedence Clearwater revival deal. We wanted to renegotiate a fair deal and then we'll record and eventually they came around. Oh, yeah. And then around that time, we needed a producer,

and we'd heard a Patti Smith record, Because the Night. We said, oh, Jimmy Iovine produced that. Let's get him. So he came in and got us that sound, and we made that third record. It's so interesting, man. That's how stuff happens. You just, you know.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you fought for something, though. It's destiny, but you fought for something. You could have gotten lost. Yeah, we fought for it, yeah. Yeah, but you I mean, you fought for something. It's destiny, but you fought for something. You could have gotten lost. Yeah, we fought for it, yeah. Yeah,

but you guys stood up for yourselves. True. What do you, do you guys have any relationship with Springsteen? I know him. I did a, I produced an album

for his wife, Patty. Oh, yeah. Back in the 80s that I'm really proud of. Yeah. Most people haven't heard it,

but it's a really good record. Sweet record? Yeah, and we have a good relationship, but we're not friends. We don't hang out or keep in touch. Because I like for me like you know in terms of like great american music of the last 40 years so you know springsteen and petty man yeah all the way yeah we got lumped in with him for a while there you did but he's totally different man well it's okay though yeah

it's totally different in some ways yeah you know in terms of the approach. How about Keith? Did you ever play with Keith? I played with Keith at a rehearsal once. Was that a big thrill? Oh, it was an amazing night. I don't think he even knew who I was, but it was amazing, yeah. What did you get from Keith? Because we talked about George, and you brought George up and Keith in the same sentence. For me, when I listen to Keith, and I'm just an amateur guitar player, and I don't know about all those open tunings.

But, you know, he just chooses the weirdest moments to fill the gap. Yeah. And he's got his own groove. And, you know, it seems like Charlie's following him. Right. But, you know, no one plays like that, but you can't really explain it. Can you? I could probably try to explain it, but I wouldn't want to.

Yeah. It's his instinctual way of playing. But, you know, speaking of Chuck Berry, and you mentioned it. Okay. If you think about it, George Harrison and Keith, in the beginning, both did Chuck Berry songs. That's right. And they both picked up on that. Keith took it.

I mean, the interesting thing about the tunings and all that that I found, I loved the Stones from the beginning before he was doing the open tuning. Yeah. He was doing more of a Chuck Berry

kind of stuff and the songs, also the writing. Yeah. But what's beautiful about what Keith did is about, I don't know,

four years into his career, he reinvented his whole style with that open tuning. Right. You know, the street fighting man. Yeah, I think Ry Cooter gave it to him.

Yeah. So, and that's, you know, it's hard to do, to get good once, but then to recreate yourself and go past it twice is really amazing. With that open tuning, you ever fuck around with that? Oh, yeah, I use it all the time. Was it a D? Well, there's different ones. Yeah, which ones do you use?

G is the one I'm more familiar, G and A. And Muddy used a G too, right? Well, yeah, they all used them all, I guess. E, G. Right. You know, just tune it to an open chord, whatever chord it is. And what does that get you? It gets you a harmonic. It gets you a full sound. Right. Without having to push your fingers down. Right. All your fingers. You just put one thing, clang, there it is, this big full ringing chord. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're forced to come up with things on top of that.

Right. So it pushes you into different voicings and feels and things. Yeah. Did you use some of that on this record? Oh, on this record.

Oh, you don't even think about it anymore. I don't think I used the open tunings on this record, but on the harp records over the years, I used it a few times.

Yeah. And where are you at between finger picking and pick picking? I've been talking to a lot of dudes now. Everyone's into playing with the fingers now. Two fingers. It's interesting you say that because I find as I get older, I don't pick up the pick as much as I used to. I'll just play with my fingers.

Uh-huh. You a two-finger guy? Two, three. Yeah, two or three? Sometimes one. Yeah. Two, three. Yeah, two or three?

Sometimes one. Yeah. Whatever is in the space to get the job done. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a different sound when you're just picking with your thumb, right? Yeah. Well, I learned when I first started finger picking, I liked Chet Atkins, and I had the thumb pick. Oh, my God. I could never get the cumbersome thing with the picks and the thumb picks, so I just threw that away and started playing with my thumb.

But I learned the stuff without the pick, so I can play with my thumb. You can do Chet Atkins, those riffs? Yeah. Oh, my God. I can show you something later. But, yeah, I learned those records, some of those songs. I wanted to know how to do that. The reason was when I first started playing guitar,

my relatives would come over and go, I'm learning the guitar and play us something. Yeah. Here's a D. Right, right. I got to figure out how to impress them. Here's a lick. Yeah. And they go, oh, great.

And they walk away. Right. Next time they come over, I'm going to play the whole song, bass and rhythm and melody, Chet Atkins. Oh, yeah. So I forced myself to learn that so I wouldn't be embarrassed. Oh, here's one. And they go, whoa, how do you do that?

Yeah, if you do a whole Chet Atkins run. And then you've got that skill set. Yeah, it taught me coordination and it's just part of learning. And what do you, you spend a lot of time with Dylan, I guess, huh? Quite a bit, several years we toured around. With the Heartbreakers

and Dylan? Yeah, and I've done a few records just with him without the Heartbreakers and Dylan? Yeah, and I've done a few records just with him without the Heartbreakers. And what do you get the, what's the sense of him that, like, I mean, he's such a mysterious kind of interesting dude. Yeah. You know, what did you find

outside of like, you know, that moment where you're talking about the sort of meeting in the middle on the rhythm thing, on the Chuck Berry thing. What else is, what is his magic, you what would you learn from that dude oh what did I learn I mean in a sense of like being around it like is it a songwriting trip is it a presence trip it's all those things it's confidence yeah and it's just I mean nobody can do what he does a band leader thing too? Yeah.

You know, one thing I learned from him that was a little awkward at first was that he, when he was touring with us, we rehearsed and learned a lot of songs in a certain way. If we get on stage, he might change it. Right. He was brave. That's the word. He's brave. The Heartbreakers, if we had a song, it worked like this. We're going to play it like this because we don't want to lose them. He was brave. That's the word. He's brave. The Heartbreakers, if we had a song,

it worked like this. We're going to play it like this because we don't want to lose them. And he kind of thought, well, I'm going to do what I want to do. And if I lose them, I probably won't, but I'm not worried about it.

I'll get them back. He had that, yeah, I'll get them back. They'll pay for that. But I think it was just the courage and bravery in everything he did that was,

I hope I learned some of that from him. So, now, when you look back at the catalog, you know, of what were your, like, when you think about the Tom Petty's and the Heartbreakers records, you know, which ones are, like, ones where you're like, oh, man, that one is fucking magic forever. I mean, I know there's a lot of them, but, like, which record were you guys, did are really i like that first record oh and i'll tell you why it's the one i go back to it was those songs and it was us finding who we were you know especially like american girl i remember when we did that song like and i heard it back as i like how did we do that but that's us nobody else can do that right we can do that that's. That's our thing. Right. The way he sang it, the lyric imagery,

the harmonics in the instruments, we found a thing. Yeah. And so, that album is, and all the songs on it, I like. Me too.

I always go back to that one. I mean, I like all the albums for different songs here and there, but if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with that one. Isn't that amazing? Yeah.

That first record? Yeah. Because you can feel the magic. The magic and there. Yeah. But if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with that one. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. That first record? Yeah. Because you can feel the magic, I guess. The magic of discovery. Right. We're finding what we are. Yeah. And you can hear that in the tracks.

Yeah. And how long did it take to record that thing? Not too long. Because it must be different, man. But you guys were playing live, you said, the last couple. But even watching Jimmy Iovine and dealing with, and obviously you're different than Bruce, but a studio thing. I recorded something in a studio once, and I'm like, holy shit, this is a job. How do you keep this fresh?

Well, that's a challenge. It's part of the gig. Right. No, I get it. Yeah. But I guess the purity of the first record. And then did you find that because of the studio, it becomes different? Well, you know, it's interesting.

The first record wasn't really done in a proper studio. It was done in the shelter office. They had brought some gear out from Tulsa and set it up in an office. So it was just a room and then a window and a little room that they made into a control room. And it was like a garage, really. They were learning how to record as we were learning how to play and write. Wow.

And so when you get into a sterile studio, it can be a real challenge to keep the energy and spark going. Yeah, I bet. But that's part of the job. That's the hardest part of it, really, isn't it? Yeah. You mentioned it.

Yeah, and playing live, you love it. Oh, I love playing live. Yeah, I'll never stop. I can't believe how many dates you guys must have done on the road all the time. Yeah, I think about that, too. I don't know how you guys hit the notes, hit them right every time, but I guess that's the job, too, huh? Well, you love it. Yeah.

You love something, you do it. Yeah. You know, I love playing, and I just can't imagine stopping, and I'm looking forward to this. You know, I don't care if there's two people there. I'm going to show up and play. I'm looking forward to this. I don't care if there's two people there. I'm going to show up and play.

Yeah. The good thing about that when you're in a band is there may be two people out there, but you got all your guys over here. There you go, yeah. And we're going to play. Well, man, it was great talking to you. You too. And I really wish you all the success in the world. Well, when we play the True Brooder, come down and see us.

Yeah, I definitely will. I love your music. It's a really good band you're doing yourself and i love all the shit you did with tom and thanks for being here thank you very much mike campbell nice guy good guitar player the dirty knobsirty Knobs Reckless Abandon is now available wherever you get your music. And now let's do some shoegazing. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey lives. La Fonda. I'm going to die. created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging

marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.