WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1179 - James Caan

Episode Date: November 30, 2020

It may not surprise you that James Caan has been in a few fights. He also played football, boxed and was in rodeo competitions, among other “non-Jewish activities,” as he calls them. James and Marc talk about how he turned his rough and tumble life into an acting career and how the same instincts that served him in competition helped him create memorable performances. They also talk about Robert Duvall, John Wayne, Misery, Thief, The Godfather, and the unexpected person who helped him create Sonny Corelone.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? How's it going? Where you at? Throw it away already. Throw the leftovers away. It's not your responsibility to kind of string out the number of things you can do with drying out turkey. Unless you enjoy it. My mistake.

You know what? Let me take that back. Make it last forever. Make the soup. Make the stew. Make the pot pie. Do whatever. String it along for as long

as you can, because what else are we doing? I hope you had a good holiday. I hope that whatever I, if you didn't listen to the pep talks on the last episode of WTF, you can always go there. And also it's a good episode. A lot of people's space to listen, but it's Mike Campbell from the, from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. And it was really an exciting episode. I was excited, excited to talk to him. The conversation took place pre-COVID, pre-tragedy. It was a different time, man.

It was a different time. But I do hope that you dealt with the holiday okay. but I do hope that you dealt with the holiday okay. Personally, it was the least aggravating, least stressful, more connected Thanksgiving I've ever had. It was just me and one other person, you know, and I cooked the stuff. I was not thrilled with the way things came out, a lot of it. I don't guess I need to go into it because it is what it is right you do what you can right but fuck turkeys seriously enough with the turkeys what am i talking you

know what i don't know let's let's talk about this this is exciting james khan fucking james khan is on the show today do i need to tell you who he is? I shouldn't. The Godfather. He was in Misery, Thief. He was in some great older movies, The Killer Elite, The Rain People, The Gambler, Harry and Walter Go to New York. James Caan feels like somebody who's been in my life since I was a child

because he has. and he was one of those guys that my my father liked you know the tough Jew there's not that many tough Jews so uh you know my dad wanting aspiring to be a tough Jew I imagine many of the uh sort of uh uh nebbishy Jews that were trying to evolve into something more aggressive were um big james who isn't a big james khan fan i talked to his kid scott not long ago and this just happened man it just happened because somebody happened to tweet at him that he should come on the podcast and his assistant set it up nothing to promote just to talk to talk to him. But he's still fucking tough. And he had some good stories.

It was very exciting. It was very exciting. And also, many of you know him from Elf, which is always on television. But Sonny, Sonny and the Godfather, right? Sonny, right? Good story about where the character of Sonny comes from. Good story. So anyways, here Sonny comes from. Good story. So anyways, here's a couple of things I realized over Thanksgiving.

Is that turkey, not that great. It's never that good. That the big con, the big racket is, you know, once a year, we try to make this gamey, bird interesting and good and it's just not that good and think about it do you just is it i mean it makes a good cold cut it's okay nice sliced turkey sandwich i don't mind that but the whole idea of turkey it's just not a great bird that's why chicken is popular that's why you don't go to a restaurant and wonder what the turkey dish is it's not there i think we should give the turkeys a break already i got this mediocre turkey from a place i wasn't even going to do it i was at the place where i get fish and they had turkeys available so i got a little one i decided to invite my friend kid over and we do

the thing and i don't know maybe i fucked it up maybe that's what i'm having a hard time admitting i'm usually so good at it because when i'm down in florida cooking for 20 people 24 people at my mother's house we go to that delaware poultry joint uh in lauderdale or wherever the fuck it is we get these turkeys that you know you have been dead hours and they're fresh as fuck and they're just they're as good as turkey's gonna get so i bought this smaller turkey and i i was on top of it and all of a sudden it was overcooked a little bit but it was the chess pie man the fucking chess pie i love chess pie it's it's a southern regional dessert okay i? I never made it.

Some people, you know, they like the chocolate chest pie or the lemon chest pie. There's a lot of different chest pies. It's basically kind of like a custard pie in a way. But I made the crust, which I was nervous about, but it came out fucking perfect. I made the chest pie, and it's like you cook it, and the custard sets, and then the top caramelizes naturally, almost like a creme brulee. And it's just this southern regional pie that I was obsessed with briefly. And when I go down south, I eat it. Not unlike barbecue.

I'm not going to eat barbecue where there's no barbecue. I'm not going to eat chest pie if it's not indigenous. But I decided for some fucking reason I needed to make a chest pie. I needed to make my own pie i needed to make my own pie crust and that's a fucking frustrating crap shoot you don't know what's going to happen with a pie crust and the lady i'm watching the lady on the video make it and she's just whipping it out rolling it out like it's nothing and then you got to realize like how many fucking times how is there a pile of fucking fucked up, broken, not attractive looking, rolled out attempts at pie crust next to her in a garbage can?

Look, I'm not saying she's no good at what she does. I'm just saying that they're not going to show you the real struggle that us mortals have who aren't bakers. You know, you got to fucking figure it out. You know, do it by hand a little bit. But it came out great. The pie was fucking great. It was literally one of those desserts where I took a bite and it made me cry with joy. The sugar.

But I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. And I hope that your whiny, complaining, whinging, Trump-loving relatives, didn't bum you out. The idea, it's like, it's amazing to me. The idea that these fucking fake alpha snowflakes call progressive people, or people they think who are liberal whiny. These fucking guys are the most, maybe they don't see it as whining.

Maybe it was just called what it is, bitching and moaning by inflated cucks who think they're alphas, who have been misled by a pig grifter, brain fucked by the pig grifter. And now all they do is whine and complain and cry like little babies. They cry fraud when they just soar losers. They are like what has been revealed here outside of the con, outside of the grift, outside of just an election where the pig president was handed his ass. What's been revealed here is that, my God, these right-wing trolly idiots are much bigger babies than any of the progressives I know.

What a bunch of babies. Oh, my God. What a bunch of babies. Oh my God. The whining never stops. And then when you think about it, that's all they fucking do. It's like just a victim mode. How is it that these dudes, these patriotic guys who think they're alphas,

never stop complaining? It's fucking unreal. I'm glad there's clarity coming a little bit of clarity at least everyone has stood up and was counted over the last four years we know who everybody is don't we a couple of things happened i watched the belushi documentary and on showtime and i just i kind of it was weird i reconnected with how much I loved that guy when I was a younger person. When I was, when SNL was the first season, him and Chevy, I loved them. I mean, I really loved that guy. And I think a lot of us did of my age who grew up with that.

And I remember the day he died. I was a freshman in college and I used to have a little picture of him, him of just his eye on the, on the door of my room, of my a freshman in college and i used to have a little picture of him uh him of just his eye on the on the door of my room of my dorm room in college and i remember the day he died because i i got a i got my car towed that day it was just a horrible day and there's just i remember those pictures of him being so heavy and and so fucked up on drugs and it really hurt me in some way that this hilarious guy who i was so attached to uh just couldn't couldn't reel it in and the night or two after i saw that documentary i had a drug dream for the first time in a while it's a weird dream just some guy at a bar some kind of like

little bearded dude look like he's having a good time. He said, hey man, you want to do a bump? And I'm like, all right. And I remember thinking like, yes, I'm ready to bump now. I'm ready to do a bump. We got into this bathroom and it was so small. It was not a stall. It was the actual bathroom. It was so small that we were like right up against each other and his stomach was protruding and it was touching me. And he's pulling these bumps out with a little, out of a little vial with a little spoon. And he gave me, he gave himself a bump and then he gave me a bump. And I remember in the dream, I'm like, just one nostril, we're only doing one nostril. And then it was, it was all cramped in there.

I got to get the fuck out of here. And I left. And I just remember like, I felt the burning in my nose. It was very familiar. And I woke up guilty because I remembered but it didn't happen and I guess it was connected to Belushi but it was not a good experience and I and I'm glad I opened the door to get out for a couple reasons too cramped in there it didn't look like the dude was going to give me a second bump but that being said that kind of opened up some portal into my past. And then the last few days or night before last, I was putting together, I'm trying to set up a room in my house for my office. And I was going through all these photo albums of me and my parents in the late 60s and 70s. And it was, I don't know, man, when you really sit with that stuff and you look at that stuff and you realize that your parents were young once and that they, you know, they might not have been happy, but they definitely were engaging in life.

They were out in the world. My mother was dressing up in all these kind of mod clothes. Same with my dad. They're drinking, they're smoking, they're partying, they're swinging, they're drinking they're smoking they're partying they're swinging they're doing whatever the fuck they're doing and i'm just sitting there thinking like is anyone gonna pay attention to me there's pictures where it's just oh my god thank god for my grandma but i don't know it just opened up this whole kind of uh valve in my heart kind of a you know where i came from and that it was a real it's been a real fucking journey and there's so much going on in the present and there's so much

we dump in our head in the present with the phones and with everything is like your just brain is occupied with garbage all the time. Engage with garbage to just sort of avoid the fear, the pain, the sadness, the anger, whatever it is. But there's just this constant, get me out of this. And there I was looking at my whole life in pictures and I'm like, get me in this. Let's get this dug in. You came from someplace. You went through something. So did your parents. Look at them. Look where you are now. You're 57 years old. My father's going to be 82 today. Fuck. I got to call my dad. My mother's probably going to be 79, and I'm 57. I'm looking at pictures from 1972 of me wearing a little vest that my mom dressed me up like a little mod hippie kid.

A lot of outfits. But I'm that same guy. That guy is inside of me. He lives in me. He's been there the whole time. I got to get him up to speed. I got to get that kid up to speed. I got to meet him midway.

So that's what's going to be happening. So James Caan, what an honor this was. You know, he's James Caan this is me talking to him enjoy it hey Mutt how you doing I'm good

how are you James who gives a shit that's exactly my feeling, exactly. How are you feeling, man? How's your back? My back, oddly enough, is good, where they cut so many times. And that's why I always tell people they cut three times long, wide, and repeatedly. Yeah.

I had two back operations before. Three times long, wide, and repeatedly. Yeah. I had two back operations before. Mind you, that's not counting the 21 that I had from my normal way of life from the time I was about 14. Right. Which didn't include very many Jewish activities. No.

Yeah, like, how'd you do it? How'd you fuck your back up? Well, no, I mean, it was, I mean, I mean, non-Jewish activities is the answer for all of them. I mean, I rodeoed professionally for nine years, a Jew from New York, Queens, Brooklyn. Yeah. Open ocean racing.

Yeah. Motorcycles. Right. Karate for 35 years. I mean, you name it, and I did it. I don't know why. Non-Jewish activities, you call them. Yeah, yeah, like ice hockey. I mean, who does that? I mean, name it and I did it I don't know why non-Jewish activities you call them yeah yeah like ice hockey

I mean who does that well how Jewish did you grow up how Jewish can you grow up I mean I don't know my parents were German Jews did they speak Yiddish in the house no they didn't speak Yiddish anywhere it was bad enough

I had to learn to speak German a little bit you know right where's my mother you know she called the winner James he's called me Jamesy yeah I think I was I was fairly rough when I was young because I fight every day Ma don't put your head out on say Jamesy okay it's like you know I had a full fights by the time I get to the front door you're not helping anything. Oh, Jamesy. No, they were German Jews. And my dad was a beast. He was in the meat business. He was a butcher.

Yeah. Meat business. Sounds good. Could he break down a whole cow? He could break down you and a whole cow. He was a big man. He was a good guy, man. He served in special ops. He was a big man He was a good guy, man He serviced restaurants He was like the go-between between the market

And restaurants In a truck I used to have to clean out the blood When I was old enough to get a car And go pick up a girl for the first time I had to get the fat and blood smell Out of the station So I used to get them stupid things that

hang on the dingle dangles all over the frigging car. You mean the little trees? Smell like a whole house. Yeah. My mother's perfume when she wasn't looking squirted in there. There was three of us. Yeah. My younger brother

and my sister. So we had one car in the family. Then he finally got another one yeah i mean it wasn't like oh can i have the saturday car dad yeah right you could have this right in your freaking mouth get out of here was he that guy he was a was he a fighter no he was a tough guy he was a great guy he was about five nine five nine", about 220. Yeah. Did he live to see your success? Oh, yeah. When I made the first $50 I made,

I threw my whole family out here. Yeah? So, yeah. That was a mistake. My dad didn't know what to do with himself out here. You know, like... How long did he come out for? He didn't know what to do.

I drew him out here. I shut him down out there and got him a... Oh, I see. Oh, i drew him out here i shut him down out there and put him on oh oh i see oh you removed him out here yeah and see his job is what made me an actor because i didn't want to do that i did not want to do that but you sound like you want to do a lot of things yeah it's interesting that you chose act you don't want to you don't want to be a butcher but you know you did a lot of exciting stuff see marcus what i like about you really sharp you picked that up like nothing like that what do you mean didn't want to be a butcher you're a bright son of a how long is this interview all right all right all right but i mean but you had it but it seems like you had other interests you had a lot of options why did you

choose acting doesn't seem like anything. Did you rack it? It's interesting. I don't know. But I was like the tougher guy in the neighborhood. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. So when I went to school, I know, I mean, I love making people laugh all the time. Right.

I got away. All my friends were like three years older than me. I was fairly large for my size. I mean, my age. I was 14, 15. I was already 5'11", about 11 about 175 180 in order to be the toughest guy in the neighborhood here's what you have to do i'm telling all these young kids why okay so at ps 150 you had to fight three times a week or you get beat up three times a week it

didn't matter right so you had to fight all the time so what i did on the first day of school when i went to ps 150 right there was a kid named Billy Spiro. Lived across the boulevard, you know, Billy. Anyway, and I told him I'll meet him after class. Yeah. And we'll go into the garden. There was a place they called the garden. Right.

In all my life that I was there, I never saw a flower in it. It was just dirt. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was a dirt yard. Yeah. Flowers were long gone. Yeah gone yeah no i had already given them to my girlfriend yeah so anyway yeah i i said to billy i'll meet you in that thing so i beat the

piss out of billy okay right yeah and for that i never had a fight again i was like the bad guy in school you see what i mean so this way i put all my fights into one fight yeah if i wanted i was home free for four years. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, it's like the first day in prison. Yeah, I was already an active bullshitter guy already, like, from the time I was in the ninth grade, you know? So no one fucked with you for four years?

No, no. I mean, I had to clean up cases. I was like the godfather, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And then I played a lot of ball. When did the acting bug grab you? Well, I went to Michigan State when I was 16. That's not because I was smart, Mark.

I saw your face drop a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. I was not smart. Not smart. It had nothing to do with being smart. It had to do with being my – they had to get rid of me. They wanted me out of that freaking school so bad, which was Rhodes High School.

Enough of this kid. So I became president of my student body when I was 14. Yeah. So I was that, president of the student body. Yeah. Played basketball and baseball for them. And when I was president, I got in all these special classes or things that you give away, like driver's ed.

They didn't want that. I got that. I got all the things that the school really didn't need and want. So they got rid of me. I went to one summer school. I went to Michigan State. I went 16, and I went to try to play some football. By then, I was about 190.

5'11 and a half, 5'11 and a half. I finally got... The back operation made me 6'0". Stretched you out. I'd always watch this from crashes and whatnot. They filled him in with metal? They put metal in there?

I have no idea. They didn't let me look. I don't know. I do hear music all day long i swear to god it comes right in you're picking up the radio yeah the song first god bless america all day it's in a volume so you played ball do you play football yeah a little bit and then i'll tell you this story i played i came there i lied first of all that i wasn't because my social life was already dead i'm 16 yeah and i'm a jew that really went big in michigan state no good huh no no because you gotta have two sports to keep your scholarship so i went to boxing i had one

of the heavyweight in in in the class and on the team yeah and for midterm we had a box three rounds right i don't know my box this kid was nothing really and i hit him a right hand i think somewhere in like the end of the first round yeah and down he went yeah so i didn't have to do anything after for that second there was nobody else to fight just like high school but uh so what happened how'd you get into acting well i'll tell you this story and then it'll go backwards yeah 16 years later when i'm fairly popular i'm being humble i was so popular it was ridiculous early 70s yeah 70s 16 years after i left school yeah and duffy Doherty at Michigan State had retired, and he loved the racetrack, Duffy Doherty did. So he moved to Santa Barbara. So he'd go to those tracks for their whole meetings.

You know, he loved it. Yeah. And I go there one day, and I had a horse. A few of us had a little car. So it got me into the director's room, you know, the fancy room above the fancy room here because you owned a couple horses i owned some people back they used to give me a horse okay yeah yeah some of those guys his name was cowboy's obsession so anyway i go there and there was a kid named archie matzos who was a tackle excuse me he's a guard at our school, All-American, who became All-Pro at New Orleans.

And I go to the track, and I walk into the director's room, and there's LaFedore with Johnny Majors and Bud Christensen. Johnny Majors had just won Coach of the Year for Pittsburgh from Pittsburgh, and Bud Christensen, you know, from Oklahoma. And the coach said, this is part of the reason I was already acting. He says, oh, here's one of my dummies. He says, come here. So I come over.

I say, hi, coach. He said, I'm really honored to see these two guys, too. Yeah. He said, you know something? I said, I ought to get 10% of your career. I said, why is that, coach? He said, I told to get 10% of your career. I said, why is that, coach? He said, I told you to quit playing football. So that was one of the reasons I started at.

Right. I wasn't really a good student. I just hated the field. I don't know why. I just didn't like it. But you like playing sports? Oh, I love playing sports. That's the reason for all my other sports. I've done that. The reason

for all my other injuries, I mean, golf, tennis, I mean, everything. Yeah. And I mean, the rodeo is like stupid enough for a Jew. That was crazy. How old were you when you did rodeo? My best friend's a guy named he was a stuntman's name,

and my brother-in-law, Walter Scott. And he got you into rodeo he i started doing a day yeah and i started rodeo i mean i started a rope right but you're already acting right this is just a hobby of course i'm acting who could afford the rodeo i mean right i'm gonna go on a fucking road for like you know 10 hours a day and eat relish sandwiches yeah i was ready i could afford to do that you know right right i was doing that because i wasn't winning a lot you get it not winning a lot yeah a juke actor from beverly hills yeah when they used to announce me i wanted to kill the announcer do you have to say beverly hills and now you know from beverly, you putz, Bob. Yeah. Can you get off and say Selma or say some kind of cute name?

I don't know. What if they just said Jew? Here's the Jew from Beverly Hills. No, no. Here's the Jew on the horse. You know what I mean? You don't even get around with that shit. You don't get around with that stuff.

A Jew, yeah. You're nothing. Nothing. They knew. Yeah. So you were roping? I was roping, doping, doing everything. I started to rope calves and rope steers.

Holy shit. So you really knew how to do that. When it comes to horsemen, you knew what was up. Yeah, a lot of that was all real. That was some hairy shit. I was watching that movie, and when you were tying up that calf, you knew what you were fucking doing, right? See, you're a smart guy, Mark. I know. I keep impressing you.

Everybody thinks comedians don't know shit. Nah, I'm sharp. I pay attention. You make, yeah, you make shit up and people laugh. They don't know you're fucking dumber than a cow. Of course not. I'm getting away with it. It's a hustle. It's a fucking hustle. I got a question for you. What happens at the, because like, you know, I got nothing to do during the pandemic.

So I'm watching movies and I, you know, I got to watch a bunch of old movies. Even before, even before I knew I was going to talk to you, I was at one night where I'm like, I want to see a Jimmy Conn movie I'd never seen before. And I watched Slither, which I thought was pretty. Holy shit. You dug in there, didn't you, pal liked it though i like it i like peter boyle and sally kellerman was on my tv show sally kellerman yeah guy jack smith who the director he couldn't he had a glottal l like peter fork yes you know they listen to me when i got a of here. And so, yeah, Peter Boyle, Charlie Carman. I mean, it was hysterical.

Everybody with two L's. It was hysterical. Could do it. But I got a question for you. What the hell happens at the end of Countdown? Does that guy die, or does he make it to the fucking thing? Oh, wow, what a way you hit. That's unbelievable.

It was Bob Allman's first movie. You understand that? Yes. Yeah. Nobody knew. So the first time we shot this stuff, for example, when he wired everybody and found a way with the sound department to record the sound with people overlapping each other.

There's a first line, you know, if you're talking, everybody else got to be shut up and everything is shut off. So you get the line. talking everybody else got to be shut up and everything is shut off so you get the line but he came out with you know the ability to do and all his pictures did that you could hear conversations going on right instead of it being filtered in after the take but that's not what made him great bob allman was a good director bob allton was also the first guy who had, you remember Scopatone, where you put a dollar in a jukebox and it played a video? It was the first time.

Oh, I don't know if I know what that was. Yeah. Well, in other words, you know, it was the jukeboxes that showed videos. Right, yeah, yeah. He made the videos for the song. Yeah, right. So you got the song and you also got a video. Right, I get it, yeah. It was pretty cool. And he did one the song and you also got a video. I get it.

Yeah. It was pretty cool. And he did one in his house. He threw a party. And he asked me, he says, Jimmy, come up and be in my video. What video? I mean, the reviews haven't come out yet. I'm doing videos.

He goes, come on. So I go up to the house. And we do this video. Oh, I don't know, about three weeks later, we're working at TRW at night, and for lunch, he set up these folding chairs in front of a screen, a portable screen, and he wanted to show the crew and everybody, you know, the video had just shot.

And it was a video of this party that he threw up there. Really beautifully done. And, you know, people and the dialogue. Right, yeah, yeah. a video of this party that he threw up there. Really beautifully done. People and the dialogue. Where it could be. And I'm sitting there and I mind you this is like midnight, like one o'clock. I'm sitting there and all

of a sudden there's a shot of this blonde girl holding a tray. I sit up and I never saw anything like sit up on my chair. I never saw anything like this. Oh my God. And I watch her walk across the scene.

And I yell, I'm just an idiot. Stop the fucking, stop it. Jimmy, Jimmy said, stop the video right now, please, I beg you. We'll go back.

Right, back it up a little bit. Jimmy, Bob, please. I beg you. We'll go back. Back it up a little bit. Jimmy, Bob, please. I beg you. Please stop. Who in the fuck is that? I'm whispering to you which is hysterical. Who the fuck was that? He goes, it's my daughter.

Oops. His daughter. He runs home and he says, guess who I got you for Christmas? She says to her. So we went out for a while. You did? Oh, yeah. She was great.

Great girl. That's pretty funny. You know what else I watched? You know what I watched last night? I watched The Killer Elite. Oh, man. That's another. You watch.

Okay. These are little off movies, which I kind of almost forgot. Kill You with Sam Peckinpah. Right. But, you know, you, but that movie, you and Duvall were so tight by that point. Like, you guys, like, you seem like best friends. We're supposed to be tight. It was great, though.

But you guys actually, you liked each other, right? Listen, I did. He's my best friend. He's still with me. I've done five or six movies with bobby yeah i mean he still calls me he's just absolutely crazy you know bobby yeah he's he's the greatest but he's he's he's in his 80s he's in kentucky or somewhere right in virginia virginia yeah got horses plains virginia here's a couple horses but it's the most beautiful. It's so beautiful. It was fathered in

there. It's like 360 acres down there. He called me at 6 in the morning and said, meat. Talk about meat for a half hour. You know what you're eating? It's just salt. Just salt. Probably 6 in the

fucking morning. He's the best. So the first picture was The Rain People. That's a great movie, man. Well, he was in Countdown, too. That's right. He played the astronaut that was pissed off at you. Yeah, and I did The Killer Elite, The Rain People.

But Rain People, I never saw that before. That was great. You were like... That was Francis' second movie. He did one other movie before that called You're a Big Boy Now. What was he like then? Did you guys get along? You and Francis? With Bobby?

No, with Francis. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, no, but I was like... I was an actor-actor. I got a lot of great notices in that picture. You know, for playing a guy without yeah you're mentally handicapped and you gotta play

but mentally handicapped I did what the idea was to be mentally handicapped and I really stuck to this but I wasn't I'm not into that

you know at night I want to go with the guys I can't live that they were these aesthetic fucking movie people 18 of them we traveled all across the country and talked that

shit all night long you go nuts yeah and i was so depressed i used to go in a holiday and play with the fucking switch lights you know it's like oh he wants you to stay in character suicide the whole time he didn't he didn't say nothing i just couldn't stand to listen to that dialogue anymore oh right right fuck get me some pussy. Yeah, but that was like some deep acting. Where'd you study acting? I was at the Neighborhood Playhouse in New York. With Sandy Meisner?

Sandy just left there. Sid Pollock, as a matter of fact, was the youngest teacher there. Oh, Sidney Pollock. Oh, he's so good, right? Yeah, and then I got a scholarship from my guru, who I stayed with for years. Who's that? Winn Handman.

Oh, yeah. He just died last year. Oh, he's great. 97. He was still teaching. Yeah, he was my everything. He gave me a scholarship. I went there, paid, and then he just wanted me to.

He had so much confidence in me. And a beautiful thing, one day, if we if we're together i'll show you i wrote a letter to him i was 21 and 22 i said hey when i gotta go out to hollywood i had done there was only three movies at the time in new york things on film rather naked city you remember that? Yeah. You wouldn't remember. Was it a TV show? Yeah, it was a, yeah. And then Route 66. Yeah. And then there was this thing called, it was a Play of the Week by David Susskind

used to put it on. And it was an actual play. It was an hour and a half, you know, crap. It was an hour and a half Play of the Week. And it was done live with three cameras. Right. I did one of those Black Monday. Okay.

With everybody, I mean, in it. I mean, Redford was in it. I mean, everybody had Hingled, all these actors. It was a big deal. So I had done those three, and then that was it. I mean, there was nothing else to do except, you know, doing an off-Broadway show

for $45 a week. Yeah. And then I started getting these calls from Hollywood. I don't know, they want you to do this one. I flew out,

did it. I was a fucking cow town, man. I can't, you got to drive a half hour to get a newspaper? Are you fucking nuts? And then, it would be 7 o'clock on friday night i'd race to the airport

get that midnight special get home you know and now meantime i'm married already i got married when i was 21 yeah i had nothing else to do that night i don't know yeah what happened how long did that marriage last first one long one yeah three three three years yes i got a second name but i'm that's it yeah oh boy anyway i had five of them so five marriages four four my wife last one at five you're gonna see we went down to get a license yeah and the lady's sitting there she's seeing the applications here and all of a sudden she goes nine nine. Nine? Nine fucking marriages. She was my fourth, I was her fifth. Jesus Christ.

This is the last one? The final chapter, yes. So when you moved out here, this guy, so Wynn Handman, like I talked to John Leguizam about that guy. Like he was everybody's champion, that guy. Well, he had American Playhouse West. Well, American Playhouse East. And he had that for well well he had a american playhouse yeah west well american playhouse east and yeah he had that for years and he taught there and he and his big thing was to find young writers you know he used to find a way so they would come in they would put on the

productions of these writers all the time at the american playhouse and um i went I did a couple things for him, and it was like $45 a week or $45. Right, right. But did he teach you how to drive? I was driving a meat truck, you know. Oh. So. You're in the family business. He said, give me a ride home.

He's just like, and I get him in the back of the bloody fucking thing and take him down to, you know, Sutton Place. And when I went out there, I wrote this letter to him. Hey, buddy win you know you know here and i just so lucky i lived in the fireside manor it was called yeah i was married i said i'll go out there see how it goes a few weeks yeah i got four starring roles in the big series out here in five weeks it It was the doctor show about Kildare. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alfred Hitchcock Presents. Right, right, yeah. Craft Suspense Theater. So I'm going, Jesus Christ, you know. Well, after another, but I was a little cocky fucker, I was, you know, so. You're like, this is it. No, yeah, but it was like great.

And the poor guy I came out with, couldn't get a job, felt bad. Yeah, I got real lucky, you know, like real lucky. And then I called for her. She came out, and that was it. We stayed. Yeah. But I remember how I used to think that I got the jobs mostly because I said no a lot.

Really? That's probably true. Who's this fucking asshole saying no to me? We'll show him. You see my Emmys up there? You see that? Yeah. Yeah.

Stick them up your ass. Fuck you. I didn't say that, but I never went that far. But I really had a thing of integrity. I mean, the thing with Wim, Wim used to say, you have a chance to do this better than anybody's ever done it. Wow. I said, okay.

You know when we did Mooney's Kid Don't Cry or some of these things. And he stayed with me until this past year. He died in 97. He was still teaching. Yeah. Yeah, I just watched a documentary on him. He's a very impressive guy. But you mostly learned with the method or the Meisner technique?

Is that where it started? Well, Meisner, they're all pretty close. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you just took to it? I don't remember what taken to it was, but, I mean, I did it. But to me, I had the pleasure. I really did. I taught a couple of classes.

Yeah. But one I taught last year and a year or so before. They called it a master class, this master thing. Yeah. I love being a master. That's great. Finally, you're a master. Hey, master, don't call me Jimmy.

Call me master. Finally. And bring a bone. Yeah. But I have very definite ideas about it. You know, it's like, look, I'm a big believer in instinct. I mean, and I proclaim that, proclaim, I became God too now. No, but I say that if you get a script, there's 10 actors, right?

20 actors, 30 actors, they send the script to you. And the first time when they look at you, when they send you the script this is look at the part of john right right i don't care who you are but you're reading this thing you don't you don't want to get involved in the stories you're good so hopefully i mean but every time subconsciously when it says john you slow down a little bit i don't care you full of shit if you don't you do right it's you oh that's me john yeah so something happens the minute you see john right something inside of you internally happens right that's as close as you're going to come to being that person now it's going to be a lot further because you're going to understand what your relationship to everybody is what they feel about you which will get in the way it's more

of a makeup right yeah but internally that's the first as close as you're going to come you're going to come a lot closer to that character yeah because that's you that's your instinct look every story's been fucking told every one of them yeah i mean the romans did it the greeks did it you know shakespeare fucking did it you know they all did it the good guy wins the. Shakespeare fucking did it. They all did it. The good guy wins. The bad guy loses. The good guy gets the horse. He doesn't get the horse. He gets the girl. I mean, do you know what I mean?

It's been told. What do you think keeps people's ass in a seat anymore? They know your journey pretty much, everything you make. They know where you're going to end up pretty much. Right? It's what I call unpredictability. So you're going to end up pretty much right is what I call unpredictability so you're more interested in the character

how he gets through this journey you don't do this consciously but when he or she comes on yeah I've had an experience like that whatever radiates across the aisle it's unpredictable it's what Brandon made you sit there

because it wasn't where it was going. It's where he's at right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Totally unpredictable. Right. That's what keeps your ass in the seat. Right. You can't say, I'm going to be unpredictable. It's you. You by yourself is going to be different than that guy and that guy

and that guy. That's what made you different than the other 15 guys that are going for the part. And the one that's close, the one they like that's the one they're going to pick but if 15 guys come in and read the same shit you know like I used to tell them it was like Tommy Udo you know when a guy pushes his grandmother off the

second story down the stairs, she's a 90 year old woman he pushes her down the stairs he says you old bitch, you gotta die and he pushes her that's pretty fucking hard. So if I were to do that, and this is the way I do sometimes, and I suggest to myself, oh, this poor old lady, you know, she brought me up from the time I was like five.

She worked three jobs. She had to work four when I got older. She fed me. She bought me. She's the greatest old lady i've ever met i love her to death if it wasn't for her i don't know where i'd be yeah and i go and i say my lines okay so what happens i go i look at her a minute too long before i say this yeah you're fucking you know the guy's crazy yeah but i look at her and i go what am i what am i fucking, you know, the guy's crazy. Yeah. But I look at her and I go, What am I what am I gonna do? You know, I'm

saying and I say, this poor she what she did for me and I go through all that, you know, before I come on. And I go, I'm just doing it verbally. Now is he poor old bitch? Yeah. She yeah all right she looks at me i'm gonna i'm gonna kill you what oh you don't understand i just whatever the lines i have to read those lines yeah so uh you know god bless you. Whatever. God bless you. How's this? Goodbye. I push it. I say, fuck, what was that? What was that? You don't remember that for a long time.

That's nuts. That's scary. What was that from? Whatever. It wasn't anything from above my mind. I remember one scene. Oh, right. Just to tell you that it's all about behavior.

It is not about fucking words. Right. Words don't mean anything until you speak them. And and the behavior that you have inside. So when I prepared it, she came out and said, how am I going to say this to this poor old girl? Right. The point is, is fuck you. And she's I'm going to push you down the stairs. So, yeah, I do it nicely. But I came over and said, this guy's got a mental problem.

He's fucked up. Right. Right? And so it's more and more interesting. They're like, hi, you bitch. So you got to approach it from yourself, from the inside. No, that's kind of a broad one, right? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Sure. Expansive idea. Yeah. No, but that was a good acting lesson. But, I mean, it comes from, but you kind of lock in. You make these fucking choices and then you get them out of your head and then you get in the scene. You don't lock in.

You lock in to what your choices are. Right. Yeah. But you don't bring any of the prep. It doesn't matter. No, the prep, if it's done properly, that's the end. You see, I know it sounds stupid. I don't take astral flights and do all of that shit. Right. Sure. I don't take astral flights and do all of that shit. Right, sure.

I don't believe in that. But as an actor or a person, it's like a lot of times you have a thing with your girl or whatever. You do have this whole buildup inside you before you go there. What am I going to say? You've had those things with your parents. You know, I'm in trouble. Yeah, yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Sure, and it's in there. You forget that you did that prep. But you still, when you go in to say, hey, Mom, I got to tell you something, all of that is coming out now. Right, right. And the way you say things,

she's not going to say, why are you acting crazy? You're not acting crazy. But like when you, okay, so like with The Godfather, you know, you guys, like there's all this talk about, like, you know, you were supposed to, you were going to play Michael, and then Michael, and then Bachir. was another great see every time i say that now cameras fall over everything happens well what but like what was that about who made those choices

i'll tell you that well everything was choices were francis nobody else's yeah but at first they try to make them listen I had done the rain people. Yeah. I was friendly with him. He stayed at my house. You know, so when he, when he, Bob Evans and them, Bob Evans wanted Gustav Garbus or something. You know, you remember him from, do you remember Gustav Garbus?

The director? The Greek director. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You remember Z? Yeah, yeah, Z. Right, right, yeah. And I used to play I used to rob him

in tennis it was ridiculous Bobby was just this crazy ego we used to have me and a kid named Gary Chase and was an A player

we'd go there and he would get Jimmy Connors he would get Pancho Gonzalez he would get anybody he wanted as his partner

I swear to God this is true this Bob Evans and he played for like yeah he played for like four, yeah. Yeah. He played for $400 a corner and $800 a corner. No, those guys would all beat me 0-0 with the wrong hand.

Right. But they didn't have to hit every other shot. He never got that. I was a fairly decent A player, low A. My partner was a good A player. Yeah. You know, not at the level of that. He didn't get the notion,

he didn't get the idea that you got to hit every other fucking ball, you moron. You've got to serve every ball. You ain't winning that game. And you ain't winning none of my serves on your side. I've got to get one off him, or you have to get four off of me. I like my chances. So we just robbed him.

I mean, I said, Bobby, I can't do this anymore. Don't you understand? Connors would come. I mean, you name the guys you had there. The pros? I just, this is ridiculous. You can't do this. I don't want your money.

So, and I said, at the time, I was a little cocky. I said, you know, the only guy that I know that should do this, I'm not saying that I'm responsible for this, a little bit, is Francis Coppola. I said, because Francis, his grandmother lived right around the corner from me in Sunnyside, right? Francis is not a Brooklyn Italian. He's a Mediterranean Italian.

What do you mean? Art, music, those kids were never out of the cutting room. Father was lead flouters for tuscanini right yeah that's all it was he was right his father his grandfather his father was a composer right composer and lead flouters for the test for tuscanese oh yeah oh yeah for yeah i mean you know yeah and that's all he knew you know why yeah and i made that mention but he finally met with francis and maybe a little responsible but i truly believe that and i think that was the success of the movie yeah you know everybody condoned everything for the sake of family right he killed 85 guys i don't

care you hurt your sister yeah you know right yeah. So he got Francis and Francis got, you know, he got Bobby. Thank God. Brando. Thank God. Double time. Yeah.

And, and Al Pacino, which we, who we didn't know at the time. Yeah. Okay. So he's Jimmy. He says,

will you come up to San Francisco? So the fort, we went up to San Francisco and Eleanor, his wife, put a bowl on her head and cut her bowl and bought us these full corned beef sandwiches for lunch. And we improvised. They had that film

somewhere where we read some of the dialogue. You and Al and Bobby? Yeah, and Brando sometimes, but mostly me, Al, and Bobby. And I mean, I never got straight. I'd bust everybody's balls from the minute I got in there. Yeah.

Because, and Bob, don't laugh at this shit. I didn't write this crap. What the fuck? You know, and it's in there where they show it. Yeah. So, the point is that that was his cast for the price of four Corby sandwiches okay right so now I go back home and he's

going back to New York to scout you're going to do New York City in 1945 that's a small little task so he's going back there and I get a call one night about 11 30 so it had to be 2 30 in the morning with him. Jimmy,

what? I want you to come in. What's the matter, friend? He said, they want you to test. They? Want me to test?

Test what? You got a Porsche you want me to drive around the block? Yeah. He said, no, come on.

I'm not kidding you. Just come in. Do me a favor. Fucking come in. So, okay. So I come in. I'm not kidding you. Just come in. Do me a favor. Fucking come in. So, okay. So I come in. Now, they had I don't want to use his name, but the other guy who was going to play

Sonny, they wanted me to play Michael. Bobby was Bobby. So I go, I don't understand. Now, here's the thing. I knew Francis so well that I knew he wanted Michael physically. Just for looks.

He never got to look the Sicilian dark. Yeah. You know, more pensive and that guy. And he wanted Sonny to be the Americanized version of him. Right? Right. He's a younger brother. And Al at that time, I love Al.

He's a good friend of mine. And he's great. Yeah. At that time, he was really self-destructive. Pacino was. Because it was hard for him to get to Francis. You know, he buried up in a concept that he had. Yeah.

You know? He was an actor's actor, you know. But it was worse every fucking time he came in. So we'd have these tests. I tested for everything. Mario Puzo, you read the book. Yeah. The Making of the Godfather?

Yeah. If Khan had tits, he'd have played K. Yeah. I came in, I was half-hearted. You know, I just, because I knew Francis was killing him. Yeah. I walked in to the studio on 57th Street. There were 900 actors sitting around this fucking on the floor

with their backs against the wall in the studio, eating, drinking coffee. All of them were going to test. They had English accent, Scotch accent. They were from bum fuck Idaho. I don't know where they were from. Everybody you can name was there. Everybody. And they were all testing for what? Michael.

Oh my God. Yeah. I go on a test for Michael. I'm fucking, you know, it's okay. It's nothing. But I didn't. My heart was with Francis. I was getting mad at Francis. So I came home that day from the studio feeling

Francis' pain. And I did my test. I'm going inside day from the studio feeling Francis's pain and then and I did my test I'm going inside and the next morning I get up and I start throwing all this shit in the bag

I'm getting out of there and they come to my door and says where you going they want you to come and test again I said get your foot

outside of my door break your fucking foot off get out of here go fuck yourself and I'm gonna come home and throw that little prick out of the 30-story window. Get the fuck away from me.

Just get the fuck out of here, okay? And I go, I'm so in a hurry, I don't even go to my plane. I go right to the terminal and get on a train to Chicago. Just so I can get away from him. Go to the train. About my third day there, that night I go to go listen.

Okay, Jimmy, please come back. You son of your son of your son. So he kept pushing Al. And each time, Al was worse than he was the time before. Why? Because he was overthinking it or what? No, because, I mean,

the guy's disgusted. He's given his best. Francis believed him, which is all that really mattered to me. As Michael. It was the director's picture once I get in there. Yeah.

Once they make up a mind that this is the director, I'm going to leave him alone and let him direct. Right. And thank God, you know, it was Michael. But even during the making of it, but I could see Michael, he wanted to be so far removed from it. He was this nebbish kind of guy. He went in the army.

Oh, Al, yeah. The things that the Corleones wouldn't do. Right. And meanwhile, i'm fucking acting up right you know yeah and but then it was someplace for him to grow from you know yeah to understand it anyway so it all worked out i think pretty well but that's interesting that's interesting at the beginning you thought he was underplaying it and and then he left himself room to grow into the monster. He was underplaying it.

He was being this guy. He's a soldier. He's taking stupid commands from people that want to go kill this guy. Okay, do 25 push-ups. No problem. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was quiet and thinking.

It's funny. You really kind of think deeply about your intuitions are not just for yourself, but for the whole sort of structure of the movie when you enter this stuff. Oh, for sure. It has to fit. Yeah. You have to relate it to. I mean, that's why I said you get to know who they are,

how much they like. You know, you get to really know you have a little difference. And sometimes I'm not aware of it, but I have a different way of dressing the father as opposed to the mother of my girlfriend. Right. Or the bad guy's left-hand guy the guy you just if you know take your time just seeing what i know what he thinks about me what i think about him right everything is good i can say anything i want right because like you know it's amazing after watching a lot of the movies you know you got a

you got incredible range you know i mean it's like you know people thinking he was sunny or whatever but you got the full spectrum of shit you can do francis let me go in other words yeah the very first scene we shot in a in a jenko olive oil company yeah i didn't know it was like the first day i shot and it was the same way the salazzo comes in i just i just wasn't there. I was like, I didn't have my foot in anything, you know? Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I was just, but I was doing it, and Francis was looking at me and didn't say nothing.

And Brando was great. Yeah. Anyway, I came home from that, and I felt shitty. And we were going out somewhere, and I was shaving that night. Yeah. And Rickles used to be a friend of mine. I was a young kid i used to hang around with them who were don and don adams and rickles yeah rickles is out of his mind you know just fucking funny yeah anyway i come in i was shaving all of a sudden i don't know why i thought of Rickles. This is a true story. I'm shaving.

Poor. Shave away. Jesus, you're fat, you know? Yeah. Yeah, you must be. You're the only guy when you're sitting on the street, you must say, get up, get up, when you're sitting on the toilet seat, you know?

You must have flat kids, you son of a bitch. I mean, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And I just busted horn. Yeah. I went in the next day i'm telling you i busted balls for 16 weeks yeah every day francis why don't you get your suit changed you pay you how much money you need 30 to get that brush you wear it every fucking day i mean yeah busted balls right and everybody hysterical right right and And Francis never said a fucking word.

Because I had a life, forget it. I could have done Hamlet like that. All those things, the beat-a-bop-a-da-boom and this and that, that's all improvised. And he left it, Francis. None of that's written. I said, you know, in my neighborhood, the Italians, I know they maybe had two suits,

one suit, but they had 12 pair of shoes. I don't know what it was. They loved shoes. Yeah. So I said to the wardrobe lady, I said, do I have a pair of those black and white tickers, you know? Right. Or brown and white, but black and white. No, it's not in the script.

It's not in the script. Oh, can I get them? You know, we had a tight script. It was like $2.5 million, something ridiculous. I also went, wait a fucker. Right. I bought it for $10 in the Bronx in a used store yeah those black and white now you remember the black and white shoes yeah i bought them for ten dollars yeah yeah same with when i come and see i didn't know when i was gonna use it or ever use it i took my car we had these things

we called them attitude of justice yeah you know do you remember this industrial-type brooms? We cut them off here. It was a little like one of those little mini-bats you buy at the ballgame. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Put them under our seat, I know, and attitude adjust in case I needed it. This prop guy said, what are you doing with that? I don't know. Just leave it.

Is it bothering you? Leave it the fuck there. Yeah. And that was weeks before we did the fight. When I got the fight, I stopped outside and I grabbed that fucking thing and I ran out of the car and I said, come here, come here, come here. And I threw this

fucking thing at him. He was running behind the cars on the other side of the street. I threw it at him. Francis loved it, right? He was sitting on the stoop when he beat the fuck out of that guy. He started to run and I pulled the thing out underneath the car. He says, but Jimmy, you look he beat the fuck out of that guy. Yeah, and he hit me and he started to run. And I pulled the thing out underneath the car.

Yeah. And I shoot him. He says, but Jimmy, you look like you don't want to hit him. What are you, fucking nuts, Francis? This thing's a fucking waste of power. They have two power. Yeah. Like an enemy's behind the car, so he's running.

Hit him right off the coconut. But luckily, it was on an upswing. Yeah. It was on an upswing, you know? Right. So it didn't really knock him hit him right in the

fucking head so yeah I I I I I I

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I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Wow What was that guy's name? Johnny Russo. He wrote a book out now where he claims he did this. Everybody he talks about is dead. He fucked my mom on the road. He did this. He did. Yeah, yeah, right. How could you say that, John?

You know that guy. He's okay. He's a real go-getter, you know? Yeah. Anyway. So the key to Sonny came through Don Rickles. Yeah, pretty much. So the key to Sonny came through Don Rickles.

Yeah, pretty much. It was like, you know, there was little things in my neighborhood. I remember. And the first time I ever just took off on my own, during the wedding, they said, go outside. These guys are taking the numbers now, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, with the cameras. I mean, none of that was in there.

I go, what do you want to do? It's a wedding. blah, blah, blah. Yeah. You know. That's when you threw the camera down and you throw the money at him? No way. Yeah, there you go.

See, that's the thing. You saw it. You remember. Yeah. I had no intention of doing anything but walking in. But when I walked in

with Clemenzo, who's a great character. That guy's great. The guy comes out and he snaps my picture. That's not it. And I seem just fresh one and i just lost it yeah i took his fucking camera right and it was one of these box cameras you

know pumped upon the way not still cost a lot of money i smashed i smashed it on the floor and in my neighborhood was if i got books up as long as you paid for it it was even right and i looked at it then I swore 20 on him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Francis just loved that. It just happened right then and there. It's like they say, you gotta be open, you know? Right.

So I had a lot of fun with him, and Francis was great with me. Let me do, I mean, there's so many things he allowed me to do. But, and he was really kind enough You know To let me do them Are you still friends?

Oh yeah sure I did four more pips Three four more pips with him I want to do one more But now he Someone's doing a picture about him But then all these other great fucking movies I didn't even know Slither was a thing

And that's I like that movie. Me neither. I forgot until you mentioned it right now. Peter Boyle, that was great. And then Cinderella Liberty was great. The Gambler. What was that director's name? Carol Rice? Is that who he said? Carol Rice. By the way, he was great. That's a great movie.

Toback's a nut, right? Complete nut bullshitter. Yeah, he's full of shit. Yeah. Toeback. I'm going to tell you. I'm telling you, Toeback. But Cal Rice, you know, he was the producer of Saturday Night and Sunday Morning, a great picture.

Yeah. Just the greatest guy. And you know how his English was. Like, I'm in every shot of that movie, right? And one day we're in Lexington Avenue. There's that one apartment building here they got the steps that go all the way up you know to the front door

and I was in the next room and I had a I had a smoke in the green room was in the next door they needed me for a shot so the AD comes out and says hey Jimmy we need you for the come on out I'm going down the stairs and they have them wires going down the stairs I step on one of them cables you know boom I'm going down the stairs and I have them wires going down the stairs. I step on one of them cables,

you know. Boom, I go down from the middle all the way down. My ankle gets as big as a fucking softball. This big. Right when I hit the ground. Tore it up. They picked me up. And he runs up to Carol Rice and he goes, I think Jimmy just broke his ankle.

And Carol went, oh, fuss, fuss, fuss, fuss, fuss. Oh, fuss, fuss, fuss, fuss. Oh, fuss, fuss, fuss, fuss. Did you break it? No, it was pretty bad. I watched Freebie and the Bean, which I saw when I was a kid. What about Thief? Thief is the best movie of all. I got that.

Yeah. You love that one, huh? Oh, yeah. I mean, acting. Listen, here's what I mean about making certain choices. Michael turned out, I mean, that was like his first picture, you know. I can say I put him on the map. Michael Mann.

Yeah. Yeah. He's a half a dick, you know, he's a real little Hitler. Yeah. So, I'm doing this picture, and I'm looking at this dialogue, and for whatever reason I have no idea where it comes from I decided

cause you know the story about a guy this is like a true guy by the way you know there's two guys that make up that one character but one of them he got put in jail for like $40 you know and that's where he first became a bad guy. That's a lot of these sentences

they give these kids with a joint. Right, right. They're in there with bad guys for the first time. Yeah, they get made

into bigger bad guys. I do 11 years because I had two fights in there and I hit this, the captain on the head. I did all this stuff.

Yeah. So now I'm in a hurry to make up for them 11 years, you know? Right. Did you ever see the picture? Yeah. You know, and that thing I pulled out with Tuesday, yeah so now i'm in a hurry to make up for them 11 years you know right that's what that did you ever see the picture yeah you know and that thing i pulled out with tuesday the collage collage yeah

yeah that old scene yeah so i said to michael one day i said listen if you notice in this picture if you ever see it again there is not one one contraction in it. No isn't, wasn't. No contractions. So I am the last guy on earth you want to mess with. You know. Right. I just never had a is or wasn't. I am the last guy you want to fuck with, okay? Yeah. So

I'm doing this thing and I'm doing a what is it that you think that I'm wearing? He's a $3, you know. And Michael goes, wait a minute, why are you speaking like that? Why am I speaking like what? I mean, I say it's because I never want to repeat myself. Do you understand?

You're in a hurry. Exactly. Haste makes waste. Right? Yeah. He went, okay. You know? So the hope is you won't find one contraction in there.

And that was your choice. Yeah. You guys are really in a hurry, but that's really odd, right? But I am not going to repeat myself. You understand? Making up for the lost time. Yeah, yeah? Yeah. Huh. You guys are really in a hurry, but that's really odd, right? But I am not going to repeat myself. You understand? Making up for the lost time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I'm not.

Yeah. That's fucking great. And what about the one you directed? How come you only do it? You didn't want to direct more? Oh, I got the best reviews on that. I know. The hide-and-play in sight.

It was so, yeah, it was so great. They didn't understand it. I had these idiots over there at MGM UA. Yeah. I was so great. They didn't understand. They got these idiots over there at MGM UA. Yeah. I think they were. And they put it out, and they didn't even have single sheets yet. And then they came out, and I got these reviews,

and then they realized, oh, my God. You know, and they tried to put it out again. They got a real movie on their hands. The truth of the matter is, you know, if you make a movie, even when I'm acting, this sounds pompous, but I don't mean it that way. I want everybody in the world to love it obviously sure but you're really making it for about 20 guys or 15 girls and girls that you know you respect a lot and right so when francis told me it's one of his best five

movies or 10 movies you know that he's ever seen yeah and pollock wrote me a letter and a lot of the guys wrote me a letter so that was really good and rewarding for me. But the kids were, who was so good. You know, I found you like a very, I, I, I mean,

it was so much fun doing it. Cause I could get to play with my actors, you know? Yeah. And, uh, I felt bad for them. That they didn't get the recognition.

Right. In the, in the, in the business they did. They did. All right. Yeah right yeah yeah it's so funny you know what i noticed when i was watching all these movies is how many times you're uh uh recovering from gunshot wounds or you know or or in a hospital bed it's like you got a fucking bullet and it comes a horseman then you in misery you're in the fucking bed recovering and killer

elite you got you got to recover from something and brian song brian song you're in the fucking bed recovering and killer elite, you got to recover from something and Brian Song, Brian Song, you're dying. I want to go with Peckinpah. You got to have at least two bullets in you. No matter what, his love stories have two bullets. That guy is crazy. Did you like that guy? Sam, yeah, complete wacko, complete.

I had a scene with Bobby in the morning. The night before, first of all, I had a scene with Bobby in the morning, like the night before. First of all, I had that cane shit. I studied that, you know, for a while. I teach it. And Bobby and I have this thing. It's a whole written scene. We're going to work that next day in the car.

If you'll see that the first night and then the second day we're in the car, there's a long scene and it's about a broad that I took up to my room. He came up to my room. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and he gives you the fake VD thing. And he gives you this thing where she has some kind of venereal disease. That's true.

My fucking brother went into her wallet, found it, and was laughing his ass off. Didn't stop me, you little prick. There you go. But I didn't know about that because she was... She says, did you touch your pussy and i went spit out the cheese i was eating i couldn't remember yeah they were laughing so i told i sold sam he goes tell that story what about all the style i give up fuck it just tell that

story to bobby so that's how that came about he's nuts i'm telling you and you just put it in the movie yeah so what about these times what about like you know it seemed like there were times to Bobby. That's how that came about. He's nuts, I'm telling you. And he just put it in the movie? Yeah. So what about these times? There were times where you didn't want to act anymore, you quit, or you retired, or you had trouble? No, yeah, I had... I lost my sister, you know, which was like

brutal. She was like my best friend, my sister. Yeah. And things were coming easy you know and and i don't know and then i got into coke cane you know which i never did i was a ball player my whole life you know yeah but i i i coached my kids you have no idea i coached i quit and i coached for five years i coached I quit and I coached for five years.

I coached baseball. I coached hockey, which I knew, not hockey, soccer, which I knew nothing about, and basketball. Yeah. And we won. I mean, it was great. And you weren't acting at all? No.

In one day, I could feel more creative than I can with one of these kids than I can with six months in a movie. Yeah. Forget it. It's great. And I worked my ass off. I brought kids to my house. creative than I can with one of these kids than I can with six months in a movie yeah forget it it's great and I worked my ass I brought kids to my house I bought a batting machine from I got a batting machine from the Dodgers in my house it was great my kid was the number one pick Scott yeah Andy Lopez who was coach of Pepperdine yeah offered him a good baseball coach at Pepperdine yeah offered him a scholarship when coach at Pepperdine. Yeah.

Offered him a scholarship when he was 13. Says the best set of hands he's seen. So this was what you did to kind of get over the sadness? No, I did that to get some life back into myself, you know? I don't know. After the Coke and stuff? I realized that, yeah, it was terrible. Terrible. Really destructive.

Yeah. I realized that, yeah, it was terrible, terrible, really destructive. Yeah. And I realized that the three words I like least are I don't care. Yeah, yeah. You want to play tennis? I don't care. You don't care?

Well, fuck you. I want to know that I beat you today that you wanted to play. It does me no good. I can hit against a court, you know, like a – Yeah. You know, you want to fuck? Oh, well okay okay you're really no you don't really yeah yeah so the passion became passion became everything to me like someone's passionate about something i'm gonna listen or not you have to be crazy but they care about what they do so So I got into this whole bullshit fucking thing. And then I realized like

how destructive it was. And then I had some good friends. Like, nobody was better to me than Castle Rock, you know. Those guys, I had a couple. I had friends. Rob Reiner? Yeah, Meathead was one

and Andy Shatton. And they offered me Misery. Misery, I don't know. Rob must have believed me or something because I think they went to Warren Beatty. And Warren was a good guy. He said, no, you want a real man for this? You don't want someone like Jimmy Carr or something.

So they came to me to do it. They offered me something that was very fair. Very fair for not being around for long. More than fair. There was like a one-third of what I made, which I was making pretty good money. I was one of the highest paid guys around. I did it.

That was another part. What would you do to prepare for that? I mean, like, first of all, you know me, I mean, you know me well enough,

but I knew Rob. He, he left. I said, I, I know why you did this. You took the, the most,

um, uh, well, let me see what the word was. I used neurotic guy in Hollywood, you know, and put him in bed for 15 weeks, right? It's like, you could sense

I wanted to get out so bad, you know. And Robert is great. So I looked at this, and Kathy was wonderful. She loved to rehearse. I don't like to rehearse. Especially here. So Rob comes in and says, Jimmy, do you mind if she wants to

rehearse? I really don't want to rehearse. I mean, if it's okay. You know, why? Look, I don't know if she's going to kiss me or fuck me when she comes in. Why do I want to know without before? Let me get lost. I understand that I have no idea. It's just what I have to do.

I'm not playing anything. I don't have to play with my dialogue. Right. I go, don't get me in it, you know? Let her rehearse with somebody else. Let her rehearse with me. I'm like, she's going to hit me in the head with a bat. So he got that and he rehearsed with me all the time.

And I had a lot of fun. So you didn't know. You wanted to keep it so you didn't know what she was going to do. I want me the character. Yeah. I know what she was going to do i want me the character yeah i know what she's going to do but i try to play against that well what good would that be you're taking away the acting part right yeah yeah not the acting what am i acting acting for right right right i have to really try to remember what she's going to do of course yes i know that but i already have my my innards rehearsed and ready I've done it already now I got

where I should be and she was really good did you like doing that part? I had to be in bed it was really tough I am kind of just got to move all the time yeah

our cameraman Stanley when I had to get out of bed and crawl yeah to the to the door when rob wasn't looking he'd go around and he's i'd be watching him here's your route and he'd spit on the floor the prick so my strategic spots yeah it's such a great you know like you knew all these guys I mean I can't even

believe that when he like one of the first movies you did you were with Mitchum and John Wayne how about that that must have been crazy

22 or 23 years old must have been crazy first thing I did was got lifts for my fucking heels with those two guys I love Mitchum to death he was around

that guy that guy was yeah okay boy and fucking heels with those two guys. I love Mitchum to death. He was around. That guy was okay, boy. And so Mitchum, I mean, I go to work with Wayne. Yeah. And the first week is me and Wayne riding to El Dorado, riding a nice Cinepone, you know, about El Dorado. Yeah. And I'm noticing he's talking to me. I'm saying, this fucking guy don't talk right, you know, about El Dorado. Yeah. And I'm noticing he's talking to me. I'm saying, this fucking guy don't talk right, you know?

Yeah. I used to notice it, but now I'm here, coming from the studio and, you know, at the playhouse. And I'd say he'd go, like he shoots this kid, and he goes down and picks his head up and he goes, why'd you do it, Luke? Why'd you have to go and do that? Who the fuck

talks like that? I'm saying to myself. So he says, now Mississippi. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna walk. And I just couldn't fucking believe it. So I, like I tell you, it's like whatever's there, I'm looking, I'm in awe, and I'm smiling.

Like, I can't believe this guy, it was really real. How could a guy have no human talks like this fucking guy? And I'm just smiling. So Mitchum comes about two weeks later to join us, and I had that hat on, and Mitchum comes out, and he goes, hey, Jiminy Cricket, And I had that hat on, and Mitchell comes out, and he goes, hey, Jiminy Cricket, because I had that hat on. Yeah.

So I said, you're doing a lot of smiling there. They got to show them the dailies, you know? Yeah. He said, you're doing a lot of smiling there. I'm talking to Mitchell. Have you ever listened to this fucking talk? What are you talking about? He laughed, man, you know?

I kept it up, you know, with with wayne yeah and he turned out to be like a 12 year old kid i mean i loved him but he was if he could intimidate you he'd i'm there with the tube these two fucking giants yeah 22 or whatever the hell i was yeah and i'm we come and howard hawks and 72 year old, he was Howard Hawks, you know? Right. There was one scene where we come around the corner at the top of the street, and the bad guys are all down at the end of the street in a bar on the right. That's where I throw that knife or something else goes on.

I think Mitchum goes in and does his thing. But anyway, these bad guys in the town looking for him. We come around the corner. We finally look for him. We come around the corner. We finally look for him. We came around the corner. Now I'm running. We first come running around the corner, and we stop at the corner. And Duke says, now look at Mississippi.

You run down here right down the middle. Just scoot around that back end. Come around it, and you come that that front door when i'm going yeah i mentioned okay so hawks come over we had to dress the whole front dressed in street you know there's two six ups there i mean one six up two four ups much more just people walking up was with length of the street yeah took quite Took quite a while, you know? Yeah. All right. You ready guys? This is okay. So now Jimmy, when you say that line, boom, you go, right. I'll do this and go shovels back to the cameras about 50 yards away. Yeah.

Turns around. And as he's walking back, Luke turns to me and says, nah, look at kid. When you say that to her line, I want you to turn around and give me that look you give me. What the fuck look? I give you what? What look? Yeah. I didn't say that to you.

I guess she was picking up on me smiling at her all the time. You know? Yeah. So I said, what? Just turn around and give me that look you give me and then go i say okay dude we're all everybody back around that way action flying around the corner this

and i turn around cut yeah jesus christ what happened? Here comes Hawks, slowly across. Bring everybody back. Yeah. Look, Jimmy, when you say that, I need you to go. I don't need you to stand there. Because there's got to be a little whatever, you know. Pace. Yeah, no, yeah, there's speed. We need to get down there.

Yeah. I said, I'm sorry, coach. I'm looking at this prick. He didn't say a word. All right. Sorry, coach. Sorry, coach. I'm looking at this prick. He didn't say a word. All right. Sorry, coach. Sorry. Sorry.

We started walking down. He starts walking back to the company. He says, nah, lucky kid. I told you when you give me that look, don't take a full step. You take a half a step. And then you turn around and give me that look you give me. Okay, Duke. This is really early on in the relationship.

Right. Fucking courses, everything coming in. There you go. I run down. I take a step. I go, all right, I'm going down here. Turn around. Cut.

Yeah. What the fuck? What does it matter with you, Jimmy? What do you mean, Coach? I'm sorry. I told you, don't turn around again. Look at him. It's important you say it and you go.

Yeah. And I'm waiting for John. The young kid that's getting his ass kicked by the director, you don't say a fucking word. Yeah. So I said, I'm sorry, Coach. I promise you it will not happen again. I'm so sorry.

Right. You know, we're going to wipe the horses down. Now they're going to wipe them down. It was a fucking half hour. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I get in a position, and Duke goes,

nah, lucky kid. And I turn around with my fist, and I was going to pop him. Right? And I was going to pop him. And all of a sudden, I get grabbed from the back from Mitch and grabbed both my arms from my back. He said, ooh, easy, big fella.

Ooh, easy, big fella. I said, you fuck. You know? And, you know, they both kind of laughed. And that was it, you know? But from then on, we were great. He was like my best friend, you know? Was he just fucking with you? If he could get you know he would do the art of the honey cut

if he could intimidate you he'd fucking your whole picture you'd be intimidated you'd get scared to death of him by Wayne yeah you know if he could see that and me it became so bad like because you were laughing at him

he'd do it on purpose so so we're sitting there we have the scene like you're across the desk i am now yeah right and i'm off camera yeah this is when we we go on with doing us and the camera's over my shoulder on him yeah so i'm standing there, and he starts talking, and I'm going, you stink. You fucking stink. And he'd laugh like that. The hawks are like, what's the matter, dude? Oh, nothing, papi. Nothing wrong with you.

Fuck, and I'd make him laugh, you know. He was like a little kid. You know those wooden dressing rooms they have on the set sometimes? Yeah. You know, the wooden dressing rooms, you have a key for it. yeah yeah yeah like a lot coming there one day and i opened it after lunch fucking garbage fell out i mean tons of shit fell out you know it's like a fucking kid but that was such a what a great baptism in the show business you get because you must have watched those guys when you were a kid right sure i mean mitchum right were you friends did you stay friends with

mitchum yeah i mean apparently yeah he drew mitchum was around he threw george and he had a 220 pound driver george threw him off a bridge up in san francisco mitchum did yeah george's driver i was that fucking fat George. Oh my God. Mitchum. And we used to go down, me and some stuntmen. I was a stuntman all my life with them. I worked sometimes with my friend Walter. And we'd go down to

Mexico. And we'd come back shit-faced. I mean, you know. We'd go to Mitchum's house because he was the only fucking guy. And his parents, you know, we'd go to Mitchum's house, because he was the only fucking guy. And his parents, you know, his wife's parents, Dorothy, his wife, they were, you know, he was a colonel, and they were this highline, North Carolina

couple that had that farm. And we'd come in drunk at night, and we'd start fighting on the kitchen floor, me and Chuck, little Chuckie. we were just fighting just terrible drunk

and one day his parents came up to see him his mother did I don't know his father Chuck Roberson and another guy were on the floor Buzz Henry they're fighting in the kitchen where the guys where the beers were

I guess and we didn't know here comes his mother Mitch and his mother and come around the floor Mitch and me

you you you you you you you you

you you you you you you you you

you you you you you you you you

you you you you you you you you

you you you you you you you you

you you you you you you you you

you you you you you you you get the fuck out of here

you guys oh it was great good times huh yeah yeah gotta have a good time boy that's for sure there's nothing worse than being on a picture and not having one it's like every morning you gotta wake up but i made sure that i can proudly say for most of my period, I either made him like me or made him laugh or whatever it was. Hey, man, it was great talking to you, Jimmy. Did I talk to you this long? I'm going crazy up here. This is a big deal for me to talk to any living human. It was great.

Come back tomorrow. What are you doing? Nothing. I wish there wasn't this fucking plague around. I would come over any time and talk. I'm sorry. That's fine. I got a few more.

I'll think of a couple of funny ones so you can, you know, I'll keep it up in your alley. No, it was great. It was a real honor, buddy. And I mean, you're a big part of my life, my whole life. And, you know, my father loved you. It was a real honor to talk to you and meet you. Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Take care, man. All right, buddy. Take care. Fucking James Caan. What do you think about that? Wild. It was totally wild talking to that guy. Now I'm going to play guitar. A little bit.

A little bit. A little bit. Thank you. guitar solo boomer lives I'm a fond of monkey the flying cap brigade Flying Cat Brigade.