WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1180 - John Densmore

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

John Densmore was the drummer for one of the most influential bands of the ‘60s, The Doors, but he's always been on a quest to find truth through art and creativity. John explains to Marc that his love of jazz inspired a lot of the rock and roll he made and his latest book is an attempt to discover the inspirations of other artists. They also talk about how the drug scene spelled the end of the good times in 1960s Los Angeles, why he went to the mat against his bandmates over licensing The Doors music for commercials, and what Jim Morrison is like these days when he appears in John's dreams. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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My God, man. What a nation of dumb shits. Tremendous. Let it rip. Let it burn. It's literally in your soaking in it. What a nation of dumb shits. And look, you know, plenty of smart people are dumb shits.

I don't know what it is. Things get slack. Things are inconvenienced. Plague fatigue is a real thing. We just want it to be done. People get sloppy and then people get sick and people die. And I'm guilty of it. I'm not coming from some higher plane here. Today on the show, I talked to John Densmore. He was a door. He was the drummer for the doors.

He's a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, written a couple books about his time in the door. He's got a new book out called The Seekers, which is about the artists who inspired him. He's also taken a stand against commercialism and has prevented the door's music from being used to sell products. We'll talk about that a bit. I know the remaining door is not thrilled about that, but noted. You don't hear that much anymore yeah the people have integrated adapted assimilated into commercialism and somehow justifying it is there any selling out anymore if you do it in a cool way i mean that's been

the way it's at for a while now we're in this new shift it's like it's not so much about doing whatever it takes to uh to make a buck or sell a product as long as you keep your shit together and look cool doing it now it's literally about you know managing your brand managing your own product getting out there yeah right selling you and then having the people come to you so you can sell their shit hey man will you sip on this while you talk to your fans? Hey man, will you wear this while you talk to your fans? Hey man, could you sing this tune while you talk to your fans? Look at this. Could you rub this on your face while people are enjoying you talking? Could you eat four of these at the same time you rub this shit on your face while people are talking? Make it a show. Make it a show called I'm Eating Four Things and Rubbing Shit on My Face for a Half Hour. Brought to you by the shit on the face people.

Yeah, man. There's no selling out anymore. What is going on? The movie that I'm in, Stardust, the David Bowie film I did with Johnny Flynn, It's getting, you know, I would say mixed reviews, but my mother hasn't watched it, apparently because she set out to watch it the other night, and she goes, I don't think I watched the right one. I don't think I, what do you mean? Was I in it?

She's like, I didn't see you. What was it at the beginning when they were a bunch of British, you know, 70s people dressed like that? And she's like, no, it seemed to be like another time, like a primitive time, like 100 years ago or something. I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't know. I watched for like 10 or 15 minutes and I didn't see you in it. What are you watching?

Stardust. Is there another Stardust? I guess there is. There is another Stardust? I guess there is. There is another Stardust, apparently. And my mother watched a nice portion of it before she realized it wasn't about David Bowie. It's some sort of weird fantasy movie from like 10, 15 years ago. I don't even know what it's about, but it took her 10, 15 minutes before she's like, this doesn't seem right. This doesn't seem right. And she's got all her marbles, my mother. But she waited it out. Maybe this was some artful approach to the David Bowie story that starts off 100 years ago.

They were going way back. Oh, God. I think I got her on the right track. I don't understand. I watched the movie. You're not in it. was like uh from it was like the old days i don't what i don't know what is that am i watching the wrong movie yes yes i wish my dad a happy birthday i left him a message i didn't talk to him he's 82 think he's okay my biggest problem right now aside from fearing covid i've decided as i will given that my primary relationship at this point in time is a black cat named buster

kitten fucking buster so i've done this with all my cats at different points. Like he's acting weird. He's acting tweaky. I thought it was the full moon. Maybe there's a mouse in the house. Maybe there's a rat in the basement. Who the fuck knows with a cat, but I know he's acting weird. So I start focusing in hyper-focusing on him. Buster, what's up? Buster, what's up? Are you okay? Buster, what are you doing there? Why are you sitting there? Where are you going, Buster? What's going on? That's not your regular place. Is that your new place? Do you not feel well? where are you going buster what's going on that's not your regular place is that your new place do you not feel well why are you sitting like that what's happening buster and you know the cat's gonna feel that i mean me just saying that to you guys made me a little stressed and i don't know how i forget i've been dealing with cats for almost 20 years

of my own i've been through a few i've taken a lot of them. Like I, yeah, I took a lot. Fuck it, man. It's like, you don't know what cats it's like, you know, one day they're that that's their place. Look, that's your place. I like that. You're going to, you're going to sit up there on the couch. That's your place, buster. That's your place. How come you're not in that place anymore? Is this your new place? Are you going to be on this side of the couch now or the other chair? Why are you going to, Oh, you're going to ruin that piece of furniture. And then you just stop after a few months and move on to another piece of furniture. Where are you?

Oh, you're going to stay upstairs now. Well, you're going to sweep on the table. What's going on? Is this your new toy? Is this where you're going to stay? They switch it up. Are you shitting on this rug now? Why is that?

Why did that happen for a month? You don't fucking know. You don't know what's going on with them or how they make decisions but they change they do weird shit they're fucking cats i don't know why i forget that but i'm like i gotta take him to the vet i think he's breathing funny something wrong with him i gotta take him in i haven't been to the vet since i left with an empty crate. With Monkey. Since I sent Monkey off. So I took Buster in to see Modesto over at Gateway. I've been going to Gateway Animal Hospital

in Atwater here in LA for like 20 years, 18 at least. Used to take Boomer there, La Fonda, Monkey for their entire lives. I've taken ferals there that I trapped to get fixed. I've taken a stray there to be put down. But Doc Modesto is the best. So I took Buster in because you guys, I don't know if you know, Buster almost died when he was like two.

He ate something stupid. I'm not even sure what, but he went into full renal failure. He went fucking down. I had to get him to an emergency vet. He was under observation for days, fluids, ultrasounds. He survived it and got perfect kidney function at the end of it. But I haven't had him checked out in two years. So there's a little bit of denial.

That's how you know why people are selfish and stupid we all do the denial trip no one wants fucking bad news and no one wants to be dis inconvenienced i understand but it doesn't mean you're avoiding fucking reality that's what it means so the initial tests are okay the test he took yesterday i brought him in his teeth are dirty he's a little chubby but the ultrasound does reveal he's probably working with one big kidney and the smaller one might not be working at all might have a bum kidney in there and one big good one but a doc modesto is like hey man just like people these cats can live for a long time at one kidney he's been on the kidney food for a long time keep him on that i'm even ready i'm ready to snap into sub-q foods if i have to i could give him sub-q fluids just just for fun i got the shit over here i've run a cat hospice before Buster Kitten

he's acting weird though man Buster is acting tweaked he might be just getting older I don't know he's acting like there's something out there he's acting like there's another animal either in the house or near the house something's going on

a lot of smelling going on. A lot of like, I know there's something right around here. It's right around here. Something's going on, man. And I'm going to sweep upstairs now. But aren't you a downstairs cat? Nope. This is where it's at now.

This is what's happening. Deal with it, fucker. I'm obviously projecting a lot. So look, you guys. John Densmore is a drummer. He was a door. His new book is called The Seekers, Meetings with Remarkable Musicians and Other Artists.

You can get it wherever you get books. He writes about my interview with Gary Shandling in the book, actually, as an example of people searching for truth and transcendence through their art. And we talk about that a bit. This is me talking to the drummer of The Doors, John Densmore. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a

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What the fuck, Mark? What? What the fuck, Mark? Exactly. What the fuck? I got no answer for you. I got no answer for you, John. Can we get Agent Orange to step down so I can find some books?

Yeah. I don't know if we're ever going to get him out of that fucking White House. Someone's going to have to go in and get him. Boy, does he suck all the air out of a room or what? Out of the world. But like when you think back on, you know, your life, I mean, you know, during the late 60s. I mean, what was the feeling around, you know, the chaos that that Nixon was creating? Was it was it you were a younger man, but did you feel it as menacing or was it better or worse?

It's the same, although, you know, every night was horrendous napalming and so maybe that was worse. But I don't know. My hatred of Donald is amazing. I mean, Bush, you know. Yeah. But I said to a friend of mine the other day, well, thank God Donald hasn't started a war. And my friend said, he did. The Civil War.

Oh, right. Right, right, right. Yeah. So maybe Trump is the Vietnam War, which was a catalyst, difficult as it was, you know, as horrendous as all of this is now. We did stop that war. The people stopped that war. And so I'm hoping, praying that we're just finally maybe going around the corner a little bit towards light. And there'll be some light for 10 years i hope i hope so too and where are you at you in la still um yeah i'm in santa monica where i was born

and my mom was born here in 1904 but we're not native no chumash indians are the natives first people where are you where's your people from? Ireland. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. But you've been in Los Angeles for the whole time. You've seen the whole rise and fall and rise and fall again of Los Angeles. I mean, I can't even imagine. When I see pictures of Los Angeles from the 60s and 70s, it just looked fucking nuts.

I just got into town about an hour ago yeah yeah look around see which way the wind blow yeah yeah that was good yeah but where were you in new york no i grew up in albuquerque you know i was you know i'm younger i'm 57 and i you know i was born in jersey but most of uh i mostly grew up in Albuquerque. Yeah, I got a weird question. It's not really a trivia question, but it's just like I recounted a story that I read in an oral history of punk rock that Iggy Pop told in how the Doors inspired him to to sort of be who he is. And it was based on a show that you guys did. It must have been Ann Arbor or Detroit, where Iggy went to see you guys.

And Jim did the entire show like singing the songs like Mickey Mouse or in a weird voice. And he wouldn't stop it. And the audience was getting furious. And they were fucking like just mad as hell. And he would not stop it and the audience was getting furious and they were fucking like just mad as hell and he would not stop doing it and iggy thought it was the most amazing thing you'd ever see well i'm glad to hear that but i'm sorry mark my brain cells are not clicking on that one so it was that crazy to where something like that wouldn't stand out well that the whole show maybe a few minutes yeah maybe maybe his memory's off a little bit maybe he a little a poetic

license sure so let's talk about this like the drive to to find truth and and the the sort of idea of what art is supposed to do seems to be something that, you know, you've always been obsessed with. Did you notice I quoted you? Yeah, I saw that during the Shanling interview. Yeah. Exactly. But like when you were like, you know, I like the way you start is that you grew up in a creative house to a certain degree, huh? Yeah.

You know, and OK, I got this idea. I would do a tip of the hat to various musical icons who inspired me. And so I wrote a few chapters. And then I thought, oh, you know, my mom, she encouraged piano and drums. So I'll write a chapter on her. she encouraged piano and drums so i'll write a chapter on her then and i and i thought oh let's be autobiographical i'll stick it at the beginning of the book then it hit me a few weeks ago and oh wait a minute in the chapter on elvin jones coltrane's drummer i talk about how to drummers and everyone that the first drum beat you ever heard was your mother's heartbeat

in the womb uh-huh you know yeah well of course she's the first chapter i was in her womb yeah yeah and what i found sort of compelling was this idea that you know that you know she she had some hardship in her life and some loss early on. Oh, yeah. And that, you know, creativity that the sort of she was driven to paint and draw to sort of manage the grief. Oh, man, that's good. I don't know if I implied that, but that helps me. Yeah.

That's why she painted till 94. She channeled it. And that's what the book is sort of about, you know, whether you're a professional musician or playing your piano in the closet and nobody hears it. You're still getting in this zone that sort of feeds you and heals you. Well, when did you know for yourself? Well, when did you know for yourself? I mean, like when you were a kid and you were, you were, cause you also do a chapter with, with a teacher of yours, Fred Katz, right? Yeah.

And, but, but when you were a kid, I mean, did you want to be an artist or did you want to just be a rock and roller? Cause you know, the girls liked it. No, I, I fell in love with music at eight years old playing the piano and then i played in the all the bands in school and all that but i never thought i would make a living at it it's such a crap shoot right right yeah yeah so that's why when i went to college i majored in accounting you know money accounting sure and then i got d's and went oh okay maybe i should major in something i like yeah yeah music but then i dropped out right and then what happened i got in this band and uh prayed that it would pay the rent 10 years and um i'm 76 in a week and i'm still talking about this fucking band well you know it's it happens with the guys that survive you know what i mean you you make that

much of a cultural impact you're sort of i guess it's sort of an albatross but but you know there's got to be some pride in it still right oh totally i mean you know in my let's see first book i have three self-centered memoirs yeah uh well that's the nature of the form i argue with ray because he's like kind of selling the doors like willie loman a little too much and he's giving me shit saying john well it's better to be in the doors than not yeah of course of course right i have of the doors permanently etched on my forehead and i'm very proud of it but you know i also get divorced and have to go to the bathroom yeah you have a life so but like when you guys started, I mean, when did you find, I guess in looking at the book and, you know, having not read your other books, when did you sort of know that you were going to, you know, that what you were doing was not mainstream?

It was not, you know, necessarily designed to make hits, but you know, that you were on the path of an artist and not just a rock band. When did you start seeing it as art? Was it something that happened in the doors when you guys started taking more creative risks? Well, I mean, we always wanted to become as popular as possible, but I guess in Jim's lyrics were this searching of, you know, that I was young. I didn't understand it all, really, but it turned me on. And I'm thinking about you talking to Gary about truth is in the silence and the void and addiction.

You know, Gary goes on to say it's addiction if you can't sit quietly pretty interesting stuff oh addiction to distraction well i mean but you know how did you guys how did you survive it seems that you know given that what you were surrounded with that somehow you know watching jim you know kind of self-destruct that somehow or another the other three of you you did all right you know you it didn't seem like you guys went down the same path much. Well, that was a teaching. Jim was always going too far. Yeah.

You know, it's interesting. I, for years, would get asked the question, if Jim was around a day, would he be clean and sober? And I always said, nah, he was a kamikaze drunk. And then a few years ago, wait, hold it. He said, nah, he was a kamikaze drunk. And then a few years ago, wait, hold it. I know a lot of really cool people, Clapton, Eminem.

Yeah, of course he would. It's a different time. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But he was an example, and I definitely was more cautious, certainly dabbled. Yeah. But you didn't want to die. Not yet. uh you don't

know what that's going to require so we assume that he's on the other side now yeah yeah but uh but like it seems like this book that you kind of moved through, when did you first meet, uh, you know, Elvin Jones? Was he an influence on you when you were younger? Well, yeah, I, I, as a teenager stumbled into Shelly's manhole in Hollywood. Well, I was a jazz maniac, like the chapter on Ray, uh, our initiation was sharing the jazz mentors we love. And so I was telling Ray, I saw Coltrane many times. Where in LA? Yeah. With Elvin. And, uh, oh, I just, I didn't know I was seeing something that was really iconic, but I knew there was magic. I just knew it. When, how old were you when you were going to see them? 18 or something.

We're downtown. Where were they playing, the Coltrane guys? Hollywood. Oh, yeah? I went to Tijuana and got my fake ID that said I was 21, and the door guy said, no, it's fake, but you can come in. It just fed me. I couldn't believe this drumming. It was so prim in. Yeah. It just fed me. I couldn't believe this drumming.

It was so primal. Yeah. And, and a conversation with Coltrane. Right. And I kind of got the idea to have a conversation with Jim, you know, so.

But, so you were, but, but, but, but so from early on, you were kind of like your brain was able to lock into that kind of journey. You know, it takes a certain type of mind to, to lock into Coltrane and jazz in general,

but you were sort of, you were a freak for it early on. Um, yeah, I guess I, I'm, I'm a seeker. Uh, I, I was, I've been blessed with, um, I mean, all these chapters I saw. I was in Jamaica before reggae came to the States. Yeah. And so I got in there and, you know, I saw Coltrane before he became giant. Do you remember when Coltrane kind of started like going? Were you able to stay with him throughout the whole journey when he started getting really out there?

Are you still dug it? Oh, yeah, most definitely. Because I knew his journey from bebop to cool jazz with Miles to his own quartet. And then his own quartet went further out. So I'd go anywhere with him because yeah you know and did you you got to talk to elvin jones yeah i i um i then saw him at royce hall uh and then i went up to the stage uh because you know it's not like rock it wasn't a berlin wall you could just go up there and I just listened to

mother fucker answer it tell them to call you back hey I'm doing an interview bye I don't know who that was oh well so I go on stage and Elvin is taking the nails out that he hammered on the floor of royce hall to keep his bass drum from sliding oh well uh talk about strong yeah and i'm

i'm afraid to talk to him yeah but then years later after coltrane died i see him in another club and i bring in my first book writers on the storm real nervous that you know jazz is a higher art form and he'd be condescending yeah and he'd never heard of the doors come on and and i said elvin in here i wrote that you gave me my hands and he was so gracious and and then by the end of his life if he was in town i'd bring his carry his drums to the car oh really you go see him wherever he was and help him out yeah yeah it's a harder life isn't it jazz yeah yeah yeah so you guys were kind of friends until he passed kind of yeah mentors that's what i'm writing about you know sure i get it but i mean these guys

you know it's interesting that, you know, at the time that the doors are around, there was sort of a crashing of, you know, there was a period there in the 70s, you know, in late 60s, where the generations were kind of mixing, you know, and you had the old timer rock and roll guys and you guys were the new wave, but you were kind of, sometimes you would do shows together or be around, right? Yeah, you know. When did you meet jerry lee lewis oh that was later yeah that was interesting uh we got big enough so we thought we had the power to dictate the second act uh-huh so we were playing

the hollywood bowl and we said and this is before johnny cash had TV show. We said, Johnny Cash, I walked the line. And they said, we're not hiring a felon. Really? I said, okay. And we couldn't do it. But then we played the forum and we got Jerry Lee Lewis. And we were pleased to tip the hat to the early 50s rockers. When the Doors played the forum, you guys, you know, he was an opening act.

He opened and he had been playing country music and we warned him, you know, you can play some of your hits. Yeah. And, you know, the audience was going, Jim Doors. Yeah. And he, you know, cantankerous. He got up on the piano at the end and he said for those of you like me god love you for the rest of you had a heart attack did he play the hits though did he play them he played them you know he played with his feet he

slammed the piano yeah you know and did you was he was he nice to you guys he was i mean you know they showed up without any instruments which was rather odd can we borrow your drums sure really uh and robbie says well i got a lot of guitars what kind do you want jerry lee says any old rockaday Fender guitar. Okay. Oh, man, that's old school. Yeah. And he's still around, too, man. He is. You know, he's 86 or so, like Willie.

Willie Nelson is my closing chapter, and he's 86 or 87. Yeah. So these guys are teachers for me to how to do this thing, you know? Sure. And what was your, like, I have have a weird i had a weird encounter with lou reed but it was just a fan encounter where uh you know i had uh i went to get a record signed at a record store in boston and he was signing records and i just really wanted to ask him like the right question i knew i only had a second you know and i and I was, well, yeah, but I didn't, I just was like, you know, I get up there and I'm like, Hey Lou, what gauge pick do you use? You know, like that was my big question. And he said, medium, man, you got to use a medium. And

I've, you know, I used a medium for a few years, but, but it's just, yeah, he was cantankerous, but he was definitely definitive. Why did you choose to put him in? Do you have a lot of respect for his journey as well? Oh, yeah. At first, I didn't get the Velvet Underground. I saw them at the Whiskey. And, you know, I was a West Coast, not a Beach Boy maniac, but, you know, they were dark. And Nico was singing.

Yeah. Then I realized, oh, wow, there's some power here in what they're up to. And musicianship is, you know, sort of secondary. Yeah. And then he'd tune his guitar to that ostrich sound and hit the guitar like a percussion instrument. I thought, oh, this is different. Okay. There's some art to it really

really was fun i met him just after he got back from czechoslovakia where veslav hovel had him come over for an interview because he inspired hovels when he was in jail yeah and and uh Lou was really you know high from that yeah I got high just hearing the story you know yeah yeah sure but it's interesting that you've been in LA for so long but you didn't mention uh you know the the Zappa scene did you not know Frank yeah we knew Frank we used to go over to his house for jam sessions. Oh, really? Yeah. Over in Laurel Canyon on Wilson? Yep, yep, yep, yep.

But what was it like over there at that house? Oh, it was cool. Yeah? We played the blues. We talked with Frank about he was into avant-garde stuff, which we knew about. So you guys would sit around and he'd play like his strange Italian art composers and stuff? Somewhat. He mainly watched everybody jam and took notes. Oh, really?

Huh. I mean, mental. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you guys, it seems to me that whatever the sound of the doors was, I was talking about it this morning to somebody because I knew I had to talk to you, is that, you know, people are like, well, the doors seem like there was a simplicity to it.

And I'm like, yeah, but like, you can't, the thing about the doors and what you guys did is that if you can hear one note of a song and know exactly who it is, you know, that band is an authentic, real, you know, kind of groundbreaking, you know, bunch of people like, you know, they're they I think the simplicity of it was sort of disarming that like, you know, given Jim's darkness and his showmanship played against the kind of almost jovial rhythm of some of the tunes. It kind of had this interesting balance. Well, I never heard that comment's simplicity, but what I think is what made us...

You know, when you, like Lou Reed, you need to get enough technique to get across your uniqueness, whatever the hell it is. Sure. You know, classical musicians are the most technical of all time right and they get a little stiff sometimes right although gustavo dudamel who i write about yeah he he's totally aware of salsa and led zeppelin and of course that's why he's so fluid right you know i i go backstage after and he says to me, Juan, Gustav Mahler is heavy metal.

Yeah, I could see that. And he, you know, so when you're open to being fed by all this, you find your uniqueness. You just need enough technique. Maybe that's the simplicity part to get your thing across. And you can get stuck if you get too much technique. Right. You become sort of this kind of a noodler, a guy that can play really well, but the feeling's not there. Right.

You're over-technical. Let me show you all my shit. Right. And when you listen to Willie Nelson take a solo, there is space. What a great guitar player. It's phrasing, which is what Gary Shandling is talking about, which is what Ron Doss is talking about. The quieter you become, the more you hear.

There's truth in that space. Yeah. You sort of riff a little bit about Gurdseth? Is that how you pronounce his name? Yeah, that's it. Well, you know, there was this kind of iconic underground book meetings with remarkable men. Yeah, I tried to get into him, but I didn't I didn't succeed. Yeah, it's difficult. And then there was a cult film made by Peter Brook. Terrence Stamp was the star. It was really eccentric, but interesting in that all these men were searching, were musicians trying to play so well they catch God's ear.

And I thought, oh, that's it. Meetings with remarkable musicians. I'll just use that. Right. And each chapter will be about people who fed me. Yeah, and it's like they're not all musicians, though. I mean, I don't know what your relationship was with the poet Robert Bly, but he seemed to have a profound effect on you.

What was that about? Well, I say remarkable musicians, Perrin and other artists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Well, yeah, he had a big effect on me and I played drums while he read. You know, I think poetry. I think writing is looking for music in between sentences in a way. Phrasing, again, space and poetry is like the skeleton of language.

It's really intense to try and get it so concise, you know. And what kind of time did you spend with that guy? Because he sort of led a movement for a little while there. Yeah. No, I was, once again, same deal. I was in early. We had these men's groups and we were, you know, trying to break the mold of drinking beer and watching sports. We were doing what women have done forever, talk to each other about feelings.

And I remember Robert saying, you know, this ever becomes a movement, we're in trouble. Whoa, the men's movement. You know, I he was just we're just we weren't dissing women we were just trying to share our shit like that's done at aa meetings or whatever yeah and it was a really great thing and it got so big but i would say that it inspired the million man march and and some good stuff. It helped you personally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What were your role models like as a kid? What was your old man like?

Oh, he was behind the newspaper. Oh, really, that guy? Yeah, and my mom, yak, yak, yak, all the time. Yeah. And, you know, twice a year my dad would put the paper down and say peggy shut up and then back to the oh man but they were you know together 40 years and dedicated and i tried to do that route real hard uh it wasn't my cards yeah and like when you look back like in terms of the work you've done you know start like let's

just well start with the door so you like in the doors what do you think was your sort of peak moment where you you almost got god's ear because i mean i listened to that i love the fucking first live album and you know wow yeah that that thing like you know to me like you know. Wow. Yeah. That thing, like, you know, to me, like, you know, I listened to the studio records, but the one, you know, with One in Five and, you know, and I think The End is on there as well. Right. Yeah. I mean, that record is sort of like that. That was it. That fucking rocked hard for me.

And it felt like that you kind of got out there on that one. Huh? Well, we were still, you know, like people say, what's the most exciting concert? Well, you know, the giant Madison Square Garden was mass adulation. And that was cool for what that is. More exciting is the road up. Right. It's sort of like, wow, we're going to make a fucking living at this okay yeah and that's kind

of on that live record we're still just wow yeah yeah but you're drumming like you know since you didn't really have a bass to work you know to play off of i mean you had raised foot but like the rhythm section was you so like who were you taking your cues from jim no uh from myself but i mean did you follow him like when you're doing the end and he's kind of riffing and going off and doing whatever the fuck he's doing i mean you were you must have been in some symbiotic trip with that yeah that's very true on the end i'm i'm having that conversation with him like I saw Coltrane have with Elvin. Yeah. But a bass player, a separate bass player and a drummer, they work to keep the groove.

Yeah. So it was just me and Ray's left hand. And so when he would get excited playing a solo, he'd speed up. So I go, whoa, we've got to pull the reins back. a solo he'd speed up so i go whoa we gotta pull the reins back but without a bass there was more space more room for me to improvise you know keep my job the beat is my job yeah to play off everybody and push them and right dynamics it's the whole deal yeah me. I'm not the fastest drummer. But once again, if you play pianissimo and fortissimo and everything in between, then you're getting a whole range of human emotions. Right.

And that's where it is. So, yeah. So that's the trick. Put it all into the thing. Don't do it all at one level. That's why metal is kind of tough for me. I need some silence after that, you know? Yeah.

Like the up and down ride. Yeah, and you also talked to Ravi Shankar, which is like, to me, like, you know, it's like, I mean, I have the same type of ability to, like, not everybody can listen to jazz. Not everybody can listen to raga, you know, and, and like, I love it. I love listening to Shankar or any of the dudes that do the long form Indian stuff. To me, it's like, I can listen to that all day. And I found it completely compelling. What'd you take away from that guy?

Trance. Yeah. It's trance music yeah it's interesting how okay the fab four and the fab doors yeah we're simultaneous simultaneously experimenting with then legal ls, and there's no internet here, and then somehow we get on to Maharishi. Well, I guess we're thinking, well, this is informative, but shattering on our nervous system, yoga is a calmer route. So we get into that, and we get into that leads to Ravi Shankar and all of that yeah it's the same you know we have no communication when England much but they were sitar music was seeping into their right like us yeah it's the union on archetypal undercurrents yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah, the collective unconscious.

It was just at that time there was an integration. That's interesting. So it was sort of a movement from LSD to Maharishi, and then all of a sudden sitar music is everywhere. That was the universal thread. Yeah, I think in that chapter I say that it got so popular that they started using sitar music for porn flicks. And Robbie tried to stop them, but he couldn't.

So the soundtrack of God became the soundtrack of sex. Well, you know, desperation and late stage addiction was actually playing for some porn soundtracks. Oh, shit. Well, you know, junkies will do anything, won't they? I guess so, man. You must have seen a lot of that happen throughout the years. I mean, I don't know if he was a junkie, but I mean addiction. Yeah, no.

Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. It was pretty. I think he just. and that's, that's just hearsay, but you know, did heroin, did you feel the impact? Like, you know, when did heroin really start destroying the rock scene in LA? Here's the deal. Yeah. We're experimenting with then legal psychedelics and pot. Yeah. And yes, it weren't street scientists exploring our minds. And then cocaine comes along. Even Jim thought,

wait a minute, that's like heroin. Isn't that some heavy shit? And then that becomes cool. And we dabble. I'm already hyper, so it doesn't do it for me. I'm going to go the other way.

And then the culture goes on to heroin. Oh my God. I'm already hyper, so it doesn't do it for me. I'm going to go the other way. And then the culture goes on to heroin. Oh, my God. It's just like, no, really? Oh, God. And that's when people started dropping. Of course, alcohol took Jim out pretty much. Right, old school.

The legal drug. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was Janice like when you hung out with her? Oh, Janice was really great in the beginning real innocent and and then you know it sad road for janice because she couldn't you know she had mass adulation and then went home alone and wasn't centered enough to get pretty lonely and took the spirit in the bottle, you know? Yeah. Or in the needle.

Yeah. That's sad, huh? She was something else. It is. And, you know, Jim and Janice were a couple of those people who have creativity and survival in one packet addiction and creativity in one bag yeah you know right some people don't right picasso lived in 90 right you know it's just as time goes on i'm more and more more grateful for what Jim and Janice gave us.

And it was really hard being around them. I can imagine. Sometimes it's hard for me to listen to them. Yeah, right. Thanks a lot, Mark. What about you? Tell me about all those. Who's some comedic mentors for you? Well, I think for me, like, you know, it became as time went on and I started to understand myself more about vulnerability, really, that, you know, there was something about like, you know, Richard Pryor, you know, when he was able to like, you know, there was a rawness to his truth. So how do you get under the joke, you know, into something that actually speaks to the human condition in a way that's vulnerable and raw?

That's what I mean. Yeah. By being so fed by, you know, Lenny, Bruce and Richard and Chip and whatever. They're just trying to get at the very roots of it all. Yeah. And I think Lenny was sort of like heady. at the very roots of it all yeah and i think lenny lenny was sort of like heady and uh you know but but also a great observer of human foibles and and systemic foibles but you know but richard there was some sort of real kind of richard was fragile man and you know and and he couldn't hide it so he you know he wore his heart on his, you know, and he brought that and he brought himself to what he was doing in a way that I don't know that anyone's ever really done it before.

I mean, anger is easy and being a clown is easy. But, you know, really kind of being vulnerable in humor is tricky. You mean talking about lighting yourself on fire? Yeah, man. Right. Come on, Richard. Light yourself on fire. Oh, God? Yeah, man. Right? Come on, Richard. Light yourself on fire. Oh, God.

Yeah, man. I mean, that took some balls, huh? To be a public, to make that kind of horrendous mistake and that horrible accident in the midst of all that darkness and addiction and then get an hour and a half out of it. Good for him, man. Oh, geez. In your career, though, it seemed like after The Doors, you kind of went on some different journey.

I mean, there is a certain amount of humility and egolessness and real creative passion to sort of pursue dance. I mean, what was that about? Well, I became a drummer for a dance company. Okay. about well I I became a drummer for a dance company okay but what I realized you know it's not the goal of the giant concert it's it's the road there yeah and so I've been doing a poetry and drumming hand drumming, in clubs and stuff for years off and on. And man, if I have a good night and I feel that connection with the audience,

I'm as high as Madison Square Garden. I mean, you know, there's something. It's sort of like if it's a 40-piece orchestra or a duet, that's one person on stage. And the audience, Madison Square Garden or a club, that's the other person. And the two of you are going to dance tonight. Yeah. And mystery and magic is, how's it going to go?

Right. Is it going to be a salsa, a waltz, a punk? I mean, metaphorically. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I'm missing so much now with the pandemic, just seeing live music. The connection. It's really a big part of your life, huh? Well, you know, I became a writer 10, 20 years ago. And so I'm used to this sort of

monk-like thing. So I'm all right with it. Yeah. But I do miss the social. Yeah, human beings. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Our tribe.

Yeah. When did you first, how old, where was Ram Dass and his wife when you had the experience with him? Well, I was playing with his buddy krishnadas the two of them went to india in the 60s yeah he gave the guru lsd and the guru said what else you got and they went this is our guy yeah and so i was playing a percussion with Krishnadas and Ram Dass came and I got to meet him. And then I got invited to his house. This was after he had the stroke, of course.

Yeah. So I had dinner with him. And man, I got to say, the love vibe was palpable palpable yeah i don't want to be corny but man oh man wow yeah to be dealt the card of a stroke where you you're like gary snyder the space is yeah yeah but he translated that as okay the listener's getting more in that silence than even if i was blah blah blah you know interesting that's a wow and he had a real love vibe and he was in a wheelchair and it wasn't pretty well that was sort of him like i mean you know that his sort of process around you know you, sort of moving towards death and mortality and kind of making a sort of accepting mortality is his trip, right?

So, like, I guess, you know, when you have a stroke, like, I just talked to Michael J. Fox the other day because he's got a book out. just talked to Michael J. Fox the other day because he's got a book out. And it seems to me that the people that accept and build a relationship with their sickness or with their liabilities, the people that befriend it and accept that this is going to be their partner from here on out for one way or another are the people that are able to sort of stay in a light uh when it comes to life you know and that's a teaching for us right because you know we're uh you know maybe our our road is not as dramatic but we gotta yield this aging makes you yield yeah and it's hard sometimes but as george harrison wrote uh some you know he knew he had cancer some days are quite sublime yeah so yeah and that's right and that's in the midst of all this chaos and horror that we're dealing with now when i'm out here sitting on

my porch this is the life right here right You know, everything that's outside of me and everything I know that's going on, that's horrible, is not here right now. I'm having a nice day. No disrespect, you know, and hopefully you and I don't get the virus. Yes. But the earth, our footprint on the earth is lighter. And that's it. That's something to think about. Oh, you mean with everything stalled? Yeah. Oh, I thought. Yeah, I thought about that. Yeah. We're giving the earth a rest as we're all taking the hit. But I mean, I guess maybe we had it coming.

What I talked to Patti Smith a couple of weeks ago and she's lovely. You have you had a nice time with her. Oh a couple weeks ago and she's lovely you have a you had a nice time with her oh oh oh she's the best right i mean you know she jump starts the whole punk thing yeah then she crosses over and writes a national book award book oh my god you know i'm a writer yeah wow what a renaissance woman you know and humble and she's a real deal and as you said i listened to a little of the interview that she's part of that lineage that beautiful thread from beatnik beatnik burroughs and it's sort of like the the hippies are on the shoulders of the beats right uh the punks are on the shoulders of the hippies the grunge is on the shoulders of the

punks and so it goes you know we're all kind of learning from each other and now let's talk a little bit about like um in terms of like how you felt about how the doors music was going to be used or allowed to use. What was your source of, of angst about that? Well, Mark, it goes like this.

We are solicited to do. Come on, Buick, light my fire. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. And we're kind of considering it. Jim's out of town. And he comes back and says, good idea, good idea. And I got to, you know, for a commercial, I'll go on television and I'll smash the car with a sledgehammer. Yeah. Oh, that's a no.

Yeah. And so I'm thinking, wow, he didn't write that song. He wrote one line. Our love become a funeral pyre. Of course, Morrison esque. Right. Yeah. Who wrote that song?

Robbie wrote that song. Right. Robbie. And so, whoa, Jim cares about the whole catalog, everything we're doing here. So how can I break on through to a new deodorant? Right, right. Or love me two times because I just took Viagra. Right.

Yeah, yeah. But shh. Yeah. So, you know, I've been Mr. Vito, got a lot of shit for it uh and now people have come around more so so it's basically protecting the legacy and honoring what you thought jim's vision was and what you thought the creative vision of the band was and you stuck by it because you didn't want to fucking sell it out to the point of suing my bandmates oh my god yeah that was so painful i couldn't believe i did it but because what what they were just seeing an easy payday right on some level

yeah yeah yeah but you know i mean they must have been doing okay it's not like the doors yeah well that that's what my question was okay well it was hard it was kind of like the chapelle what what did he turn down 50 60 million right all right so it got up to 15 million for break on through to a cadillac gas right gas guzzling you know yeah i mean mind you after managers and splitting it all up it'd only be a few million each but still yeah i said to uh ray and robbie okay um we all have a nice house and kind of a couple groovy cars what are you gonna buy what do you need yeah dot dot there was that space yeah the truth came in there was uh no answer and i was like so yeah i'm gonna veto right let me say this too mark important uh this was way back yeah and things

got so hard if a new band wanted to do a commercial to pay the rent i get that sure no yeah but then again if you get a toe hole on success maybe re-examine that decision and don't do it anymore but in our case well it was like you know the guy you know yeah it would be on the grave of of jim morrison and these were iconic songs it's one thing you know if you need to make ends meet and you do a commercial with a tune that you know maybe no one's even heard before you want to sell a jingle you know, if you need to make ends meet and you do a commercial with a tune that, you know, maybe no one's even heard before. You want to sell a jingle, you know, but it's different where they're like this song represented something. It was a big shift in thinking, like even with like like some for some people, it kind of like they use Iggy Pop Search and Destroy, I think, for a Nike commercial. I think for a Nike commercial. And I talked to the dude, a music manager. He said that the guy who, who,

who used that song for that or got permission to use it didn't even know who Iggy was. He saw the title. He saw the title on a list of songs and then checked it out. But, but oddly, you know, for Iggy, you know, it kind of like, it kind of reinvigorated his career and he probably needed the bread because he doesn't have a, yeah. You don't, you know, when, when Nike backed up Colin Kaepernick, I, I'm not a, I don't wear sports gear, but I went to Nike and bought a t-shirt,

you know, that's cool. Pete Townsend, I quote in my second book, the unhinged, the other point of view yeah i say oh you know people were in vietnam getting fed by our songs or fell in love or first time they got high we can't change the soundtrack to their life and pete townsend says i don't give a fuck if you fell in love with shirley to my song it's my song i'll do what i want right man right man there you are yeah yeah it's like william burroughs said to patty smith you got to keep your name clean you know what i mean but uh now did you guys did did everybody end on a good note like

when ray passed were you okay and we were strained and I I sent them the last chapter of the second book with a note saying listen this is going to be a hard pill to swallow I want to make sure you got to this chapter I say in here how could I not love you guys we we created magic in a garage. And then when I heard Ray was getting really sick, I called him. And thank God he picked the phone up. Nobody does that. Yeah. And we talked about his cancer and none of the legal shit, which was over. I won.

But it felt good to hear his voice, you know? Yeah, I bet. It was a closure. I feel Jim and him even deeper now. Yeah, yeah. I can talk to him. Sure. What the fuck?

Yeah, of course. Do you think about Jim regularly? I have dreams about him occasionally. Oh, yeah? I remember he told us this dream he had um we're playing a big concert and he goes back to the hotel room and he's walking down the hall and he hears a bunch of voices in his room yeah and he looks at the key and that's the right room and he opens the door and there's a whole bunch of people in

there partying and they look at him like who the fuck are you and that was the dream wow whoa pretty interesting yeah what did you dream about him oh i dreamt that he was back yeah he was clean and sober he was in in like an Armani suit. And he wanted to play. Play music. He was ready to go. Yeah. I guess like when you have the time you guys

had, you know, for the amount of time you had it. I guess it's hard. Like those memories must be pretty amazing. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, you don't have a life after that, which you obviously do, but you, you, the bond you create with guys that, like you said, you make magic that lasts forever. Uh, you must be really something. Well, I've had several marriages, Mark, but this one, this one's gone on my whole life yeah i think i was on uh charlie rose remember him yeah and uh he liked this line i said uh being in a band is polygamy without sex right yeah yeah

you guys are in it yeah and how do you talk to robbie occasionally yeah yeah how's he doing is he all right after the the legal hassle we finally played some music together at the at the county museum and it felt really sweet immediately it was like we're back really you guys it's so distinct it's so wild that you could just pick up after so many years and and you you lock right into it right yeah because you it's so in your blood that's it you know what it's amazing to me remember those songs and i mean gustavo dudamel conducts without a manuscript yeah nato all those symphonies are just in his freaking head how do you do that it's crazy yeah well i saw it like i just like i had the moment where i was watching that

above us only sky which was a documentary about you know john lennon and the making of imagine that you know the family had all this footage he'd been around forever because i talked to i talked to sean lennon about it and he said yeah he knew that footage because they had it you know they they oversaw the the putting together of that documentary but there's a moment where you know john's out at that mansion and they're recording Imagine. And, you know, he has George come out to play on a few songs, right? And there's just a moment that they capture on camera where John's on the piano and George is sitting there holding a guitar and John just looks at George and, you know, looks at him with that face like, you know know we understand each other on a

level that you know no one else can even understand and George immediately got it without anything being said and knew exactly what to do and I was like holy shit that's amazing well I mean you know if you work together a long time um it's kind of like a private club. Right. But, you know, with much gratitude for all the fans. And I also think that a lot of people don't realize how many dates you guys fucking did. I mean, it's like you got these records, but you guys were on the road a lot, right? Yeah, for six years straight, we were at it.

I mean, that's so many shows, so much places. I mean, like, I always forget that. Like, people like Hendrix and you guys, it's so many shows, so much places. I always forget that. People like Hendrix and you guys, we hear the records, we hear the live record or two, but you guys did hundreds of dates. Hundreds of dates. So it becomes intuitive. Right.

You go in that space. Yeah, that's it. And then all of a sudden you're in it. It must be just elating most of the time. But you want to make it fresh too. Yeah, yeah's it. And then all of a sudden you're in it. It must be just elating most of the time. But you want to make it fresh, too. Yeah, yeah. Like in comedy, just the phrasing of a joke. Yeah.

Or it flops and then something happens that is hysterical. Right. Leave a little room, a little space. That's improvisation. Yeah, man. Which is jazz and that's the that's the best my chapter on Ray's called improvisation so it's all connected sure man and it's like and that's those are the sometimes the best moments is that one you know that you know that few minutes you

got out of it where it's like oh my god you know um getting older I don't have as much technique drumming wise, but I think I've learned that if you put the right cymbal crash in the right spot. Yeah. It's as powerful as these big flurries I did in my 20s. Oh, yeah. You know, same in comedy, I'm sure. Just the right, you know. Yeah. It's adjusting.

It's evolving your timing. There's something more satisfying to that than just the flurry. I mean, if you can nail it with one beat, you're like, whoa. You know what I mean? Yielding. Yielding. Yeah, man. Yielding.

Where'd you get that word? I got that from a cover of a Pearl Jam album called Yield. Oh, yeah? And the bass player took the photograph of a Pearl Jam album called Yield. Oh, yeah? And the bass player took the photograph of a Yield sign. Right. I thought, nah, that's pretty hip. Yeah. You like those guys?

Oh, Eddie sang with us when we were inducted into the Rock Hall of Fame. Yeah. I love that guy. Great singer, huh? Oh, my God. Those pipes from that little guy crazy well hey man it was good talking to you and i love the book and i wish you the best of uh success with it and you seem healthy so you'll be around a while yeah really great connection

yeah man it was fun take care of yourself. Same with you, man. Okay, buddy. Adios. That was John Densmore. Old groovy guy. Still groovy. Still doing the thing. Still being that guy from the old days. The book is called The Seekers. Meetings with Remarkable Musicians and Other Artists.

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