WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1186 - Sam Tallent

Episode Date: December 24, 2020

Sam Tallent felt compelled to write a book about the guy he was afraid to turn into. As a comedian plying his trade on the road, Sam did enough one-nighters and heard enough horror stories from other comics to know there's a path to ruin while going from club to club. Marc is also familiar with that path, which is why he connected so strongly with Sam's book, Running the Light. Marc and Sam talk about the book's fictional (but all-too-real) protagonist Billy Ray Shafer, as well as the actual rogues and borderline criminals they've met in their industry. Sam also explains what it was like to bet on himself and publish the book on his own.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? Merry Christmas. Happy holidays.

Happy the things. Hey, yeah, have a good thing. Have a good thing, you guys. Open the things. I'm doing nothing for Christmas. Zero. The only thing I remembered about Christmas, generally speaking, this time of year in the past, was that everything quieted down and

it felt a little desolate and lonely. Well, guess what? It's been almost a fucking year of that. So no difference really from where I'm sitting. I'll probably eat some bad things. That's what enjoy the bad things you put in your face. Merry Christmas. I'll be getting a nice present. Look, I don't look, I don't want to be edgy. How's it going, man? I hope you're doing okay. I don't think that I express perhaps enough gratitude to you folks, to the people that listen, to the people that reach out to me. I want to do that now. I want to do it right now. Okay. I want to tell you that how deeply, and I'm serious, I appreciate all the emails that have been sent to me in light of what I've been through this year. All the emails that state how much what I do makes a difference in people's lives.

I want to thank you for the presents, for the cards, for everything. I swear to fucking God, people. The God I don't believe in. I swear to fucking Santa. He's not real either. I swear to fucking Satan. Well, that might, he knows where I live. But I'm tremendously grateful to all of you for being in my life and for reaching out to me in my time of profound sadness and for, you know, listening to this show on this Christmas Eve. And I really don't think I could have made it without you. I came here first. I've been here all along. You know, Brendan and I have been making shows, new shows twice a week for over a decade.

And there was no stopping it, no matter what I was going through. Because in my time of need and pain, shame, panic, whatever it is, in my time of whatever I'm going through, this year, like many of you, fear, panic, came here this is where i come i come to this place to me this is a safe place to me this is my space this is how i connect with myself and with with others i connect i find my way to me through you not tremendously healthy maybe a bit codependent perhaps a tad narcissistic. I don't know. But this is where I express my truth.

And struggle with it. And you guys bear witness. And I think much of the time it's entertaining. It's whatever it is to you. Connects. I just want to thank you. In this holiday season. for being there for me, you listeners. I feel like I should read a Whitman poem now, but I'm serious. Happy holidays. Be

careful. I'm very happy today on the show. I have a fellow comedian, a guy I didn't know. I didn't know at all. I had never met, really. Our paths didn't cross. He's a younger man than I. But I was sort of turned on to him because a couple of people that I know and respect, Stan Hope and Kreischer, were sort of like, someone was edging me on to read this guy's book.

Sam Talent is the fellow's name. He's a Denver comedian who wrote a real book a novel called running the light about a comic but i think the reason i like this book and i'll tell you about it is that his guy the guy he invented billy ray shaffer was a road comic he was a road comic. He was a road comic. I'll speak to him as if he's real. And this is the guy that Sam Talent invented in his book, Running the Light, that he self-published, which I'll talk to him about. But this is a guy familiar to us comics who started out in the system as it was established back in the day. in the system as it was established back in the day. There was a time before alt comedy and before everything broke apart into a boutique content providing portals where everybody could build their own audience from three to thousands.

There was a time where you paid your dues a certain way and i've talked about this you guys have heard this you know you came up through the clubs you did your open mics you did your uh opening spots you did your feature spots you did your road work as a feature as an opener and then as a headliner a room room, B room, new headliner, old headliner. That was the system. And then you did the road. And this guy that Sam created, Billy Ray Schaefer, is a road comic. A road comic that had his moment and then drifted into oblivion of his own making and of the business.

But always had, you know know a glimmer of respect and it was a mythic presence in the stories of younger comics and other comics the guy that did the crazy shit the guy that was out of control the guy that was always sort of like did you hear about what fucking billy ray did i thought that was john fox no it was billy ray i thought that was John Fox. No, it was Billy Ray. I thought that was Ollie Joe Prater. No, it was Billy Ray. Wasn't that Teddy Bergeron? No, it was Billy Ray. I thought that was Frankie Bastille.

Nope, it was Billy Ray. Was that Doug Stanhope? No, man, I'm telling you. That happened to Billy Ray Schaefer. He invented that guy. The guy who's out there. Doing the shitty one-nighters doing the weekends at dead clubs doing the drugs doing the booze breaking him breaking himself down and as a protagonist i was i was moved by the authenticity of it that thankfully it was a road

that it was a path i didn't take you don't usually choose that path that chooses you you don't know which path you're going to be dragged down once the fucking door shuts behind you leading to things that you could have done with your life you don't know what's going to be dragging you or how you're going to be dragged. There's a book about that. This is a book about stand-up comedy in the realest sense, post-1980 stand-up comedy, the time when we all came up. I came up in the old style, in the clubs. Alt comedy happened while I was in the middle of my self-crushing behavior. And, you know, it became an outlet.

But many of us started out in the old system. And many of us knew a guy like the guy that Sam Talent invented. Many of us were that guy for a while. A few guys my age anyway. But it was always a cautionary tale. Because we'd see them. Like dude where you been? What the fuck happened to you?

We'd see them. You see them now. The living breathing cautionary tales. Where you don't even want to ask too many questions. What's up man? Still alive huh? Still alive. That used to be the answer the drug warriors had back in the day when I started in the 80s. How's it going, man? Still alive, brother.

It was almost expected that we push it. A lot of people didn't survive, That we push it. A lot of people didn't survive. But I found the book. To be. A beautiful rendering. Of a dark reality. Of. Our profession.

Of our craft. Some call it an art. Of our hustle. Of our. Place. In the entertainment business. So I asked Sam if he wanted to do the show. Not only did he want to do the show, he wanted to travel to do it. So we both kind of decided, okay, let's do it.

He's a compulsive tester, married to a doctor. I get tested every week or so. I think we both had tests within the last couple days of doing this. And we sat down and did it old style, man. We did it old style. But it felt familiar to me. You know how it is when I talk to comics. And we were talking about a comic that he invented that I knew,

that we all know of my generation. We all know this guy. We all know the Billy Ray Shafers. We know him by name, man. I spent time with that guy in a lot of different forms. I've met that guy in several different versions. The book is called Running the Light. It's available now at Sam Talent. It's talent with two L's, T-A-L-L-E-N-T-n-t.com sam talent.com i did read a chapter for his audiobook of this undertaking and i got to meet him and talk to him because he came over and we're clean we're both clean man clean of the bug this is me and sam

you can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get an ice This is me and Sam. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. So, buddy, I appreciate you driving all the way out here it's a pretty uh that's commitment man yeah dude well i don't know you don't want to zoom wtf that would have been a dumb move and like a lot of my friends have been here so i was like well i'm gonna go do that it's like a pilgrimage honestly dude uh your podcast is like seminal you know oh thank you and i'm not blowing Like a lot of my friends have been here. So I was like, well, I'm going to go do that. It's like a pilgrimage, honestly, dude. Your podcast is like seminal, you know? Oh, thank you. And I'm not blowing smoke.

Like I remember being very, very destitute and afraid from doing standup. Yeah. And then like going home to my very bad apartment. In Denver? Yeah, in Denver, right there in the Queen City. Yeah. And like listening to your interviews with, I've listened to your interview with Norm. Yeah. Maybe a hundred times. It was all that was on my phone at one point your interview with norm

and your interview with killer bees were all that was on my phone once you better you better what is it better save up better save up man yeah yeah bees is the man he's an animal he was something man and i was so thrilled it was one of those things being the guy that comes that came up you know during that time you know when i came up you know he's you'd go down south and you'd see his pictures his dumb pictures yeah killer bees right and you'd be like who the fuck is that guy no idea and i i don't really know that i knew who he was when i interviewed him other than i knew he was a guy i don't know if he knows himself, man. Yeah, that's true. He's pretty deep in it.

But how is it that I never met you? Did we meet? We've never met, no. Isn't that weird? I don't think so because by the time I was like, I mean, in a position to maybe open for you, you were already doing theaters. Is that true? That's true.

So how long have you been doing it? I started in like 2005 doing improv classes and-huh and then did stand up and then took like a strange sabbatical to a commune in ithaca new york huh what happened how'd you hit the wall what the what caused that college man i uh i was not one for for higher education and my best friend moved to ithaca so we were in band together and i was like well i'm not doing anything worthwhile here so i'll just go up there and we'll live in this weird anarchist commune and like share a closet. And they had an abattoir out back that we could practice in at all times.

So we just dove into the band real hard. An anarchist commune. Is that a lot of like, there was a lot of piercings? There's a lot of signing your rent check in blood, like hypocrite on the memo line. Oh, okay. That kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was pretty much one old horny dude who wanted to bang everyone right didn't matter and then he had a house somehow so there so there was a plan

there was a guy there was a guy yeah bob wolf young too bob wolf young too yeah his first name was bob wolf yeah and his last name was like carl young but with a two the number two was legally in his name somehow and this guy guy somehow convinced how many people? Well, I mean, it fluctuated. There was probably... Coming in and going out? A lot of coming and going, man. He'd fuck anything. Oh, for sure.

Yeah, like, me and my buddy Clay, we shared a closet there. And I was like, he was like, so who's going to take this room? Who's going to have the closet? And we were like, well, we both want to split the closet. And his eyes lit up. He was just thinking about all the wild sex, me and Too Tall were going to have in there. Who's Too Tall?

My buddy Clay DeHaan, who was in the band with me. His name's Too Tall? Well, he's like 6'7". Oh. He's a real string bean of a man. What's that guy do now? He works on this mushroom farm that I have. You have a mushroom farm? Yeah, I started a mushroom farm at the beginning of COVID.

For healthy mushrooms or psilocybos? Not psilocybin, just like gourmet mushrooms, red oyster. Oh, gourmet mushroom, but not like the kind, the reishi, not the reishi mushroom? We have a couple of bags of reishi in there, but it's mostly lion's mane and red oyster. Lion's mane, that's an eaten mushroom? Yeah, it tastes like scallops. It's bizarre. Scallop-tasting mushrooms?

Yeah, it tastes like bad lobster. Oh. It's pretty cool. And the oyster mushrooms, I know. Yeah, we don't have any of those. Oh, do you have the hens? We don't have any of those. The hens something?

The hen of the woods? Yeah. Yeah, we have a bag of those going, too. Just a bag? It doesn't sound like a big farm. It's not. It's in a building. Is it in your closet?

No, a lot of good stuff's happened. My grandpa got bored when he retired, and he just built houses all over. So this is a house on my parents' property in the country who we just put a bunch of mushroom stuff in there. So is it a moldy house now? It's literally a moldy house. No, it's cleaned out. Oh, it's cleaned out.

Yeah, we got a cat to kill all the mice. It was a real operation. And you have some mushroom beds. No, we do the bags. So you have a fruiting station and then you have bags. A fruiting station? Yeah, where you get the, mushrooms to bud in there. I don't know.

Sure. My brother-in-law and our scientists are in there like every day. You're just a working partner. I was a angel investor, if you will. Cause I had like $12,000. All right. So let's go back to the beginning of the sit. Now look what I want.

I want to know. Cause I got this book. You had sent it a while back and I just was sort of like, I don't know what this is. Interesting cover. I get a lot of books coming in. I'm sure. And then somebody on Twitter, was it Bert Kreischer or Stan Hope, someone mentioned it again and looped me in somehow, right? And then I responded to you, or did I respond to them or I tell you up a

Public tweet there was like send me the book. I got the book and I was like oh shit. This is it It's happening man. You did it. You know I was like we heard the goods. I was manifesting stuff Oh, yeah, you really were there in the mushroom house you were manifesting. Oh, dude. The mushroom house is good for having some epiphanies Well, yeah, so Stanhope got behind it real hard. Yeah. And he championed it. And he was telling me to send it to all types of people. It's because it's like, for Stanhope, it's almost a cautionary tale.

Oh, yeah. If he wasn't, you know, a real outlaw, it could have been him. No, it's his memoir. Yeah. If things took a little, you know, if they went sideways like the Aspen Comedy Festival in 1999. I remember that festival. He would have been this guy. When he was running around with the Santa hat on and closing naked.

I don't know. I was like 13 years old. He used to run. He was one of them. It must have been that one. Was that the one where he kind of made a break? I think so. Right.

I remember seeing him there. I didn't know who he was, but everyone was talking about him because he'd get naked by the end of his show yeah and then he just he was just running around aspen with a fucking santa hat on and i had immediate resentment of him because i had no idea what he what he did you thought he was a carny well yeah he was a carny or like i just was i was upset with the with the closing naked business in my mind i didn't see it but i'm like that's a prop act yeah like he's not much of a prop I've seen him nude but he's turned into a to something that guy for sure so he got behind it early on yeah Mishka Shubali told me to send it to him cuz Mishka like helped me who's that guy he's a

he's a like a troubadour singer-songwriter who wrote a bunch of books and was like championed early by audible so we're friends from like working the road and stuff but you self-published yeah yeah see that's the thing that we should talk about at some at some point but like let me let me get some background so you grew up in denver i grew up in elizabeth colorado on the eastern plains and what what is that what is that like a town of seven what is elizabeth 800 people okay so it's small and a big family the talent family talent family is real close, but not that big. I got like five cousins.

Grandpa and grandma on both sides were really heavily involved. Brother or sister? Yeah, I got a sister. Little Sophie. She's tough as hell. Were they farmers or what? No, my mom worked for the Federal Reserve Bank, and she would drive to Denver. Okay, so it's not far from Denver.

It's like 45 minutes. It's a bedroom community is what it's called where people work in Colorado Springs or Denver and then they just have their kids there. Right, and they live out there. Yeah, and my dad ran a bank but he quit to raise me and my sister. Bank people.

Yeah. You come from money people but not like investor people, like people who help manage the money for others. Yeah, and like my dad, you know, he worked at this small town bank. So sometimes people would pay liens with pigs and cattle and stuff like that. He'd bring the pig home.

My dad would have to be like, well, I don't know how many pigs is worth a home, but we'll figure it out. So he had briefly had a pig farm. It reminds me of Jay Maskis. His dad was a small town rural dentist. Yeah. And they, you know, they would pay in like potatoes and dentist. Yeah. And they would pay in potatoes and things. Yeah, or honey.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Here's some money from the farm. Yeah, Jay's the man. He's great. Hell yeah. He's a sweet guy. He's been on here twice.

Oh, I know. I always liked him. I know about it, dude. I'm right there. And it's crazy to go from those days to now you have Glenn Close and Michael J. Fox. The Zoom thing has enabled me. Yeah. You know, I thought it was going to be a liability, but it's made it easier for larger stars to just do this.

Right. And they're bored. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right. So you're in Elizabeth. Yeah. Near Denver.

Mm-hmm. But, you know, you don't seem like the standard mess of a person. No, no, man. I was lucky. My parents ruled. My grandparents were there. My aunts and uncles. Nice loving family.

For sure. Because when I saw this book and I started reading it, I'm like, this is not about this guy. No, man. Not at all. It couldn't be. I mean, it's the guy that I fear turning into. Well, we all do. So it's really easy to write that guy.

We all do. And there are times for some of us where we're not sure if we are that guy or not. Oh, yeah. I worry about it a lot. You do? Well, because I work there. I do 45 weekends a year on the road. I know, but you're not.

But you're either this guy or you're not. No, I'm not like the Coke guy. But I'll definitely drink way too many light beers in Cincinnati after a bad show on Saturday. At Go Bananas? Hell yeah. I'll be there New Year's, everybody. Really? Are you doing shows now?

I haven't done one show since June, and those were all outdoor shows in Wyoming and South Dakota. Yeah, I haven't done any. I'm sadly surprised at how little I'm compelled to go out and do outdoor shows or drive-in shows or anything. Well, they're very bad. I know. It's like, in my mind, I'm like, I've worked my entire life to never have to do outdoor shows or drive-in shows. Well, they're very bad. I know. It's like in my mind, I'm like,

I've worked my entire life to never have to do those again. Yeah. For some reason in my mind, I've done those before. Right. You have. Yeah. For sure. Like I just remember doing the San Francisco comedy competition

at some fucking winery outdoors. I'm like, that's no place for stand-up to happen. No. And also, you're an intimate act. I know. Exactly. There's no way I could pull it to happen. No. And also, you're an intimate act. I know. Exactly. There's no way I could pull it off. Like, when I did a couple of those oddball festivals, I could figure out which jokes

I could do to land and have the experience, but not preferable. No. It was just something I needed to get out of the way. It's not good for anybody. No. I wanted to say, I performed for 20,000 people. Not great. Uh-uh.

Yeah. Also, these Zoom shows, man, it turns out that I'm a live act. Let's put it that way. I've never tried them. I can't do it. You don't need to. You made it, dude.

It seems so sad, man. Yeah, they're bleak. But do you have people unmute to laugh at least? They'll bring in like three designated laughers. Three? Yeah, but then they have to laugh

at everything or they're blowing it. Oh. Yeah. It's like a juiced room for like a JFL tape. Wow. A juiced room of three? Yeah.

In separate rooms? Yeah. And there's one guy who's definitely being paid to laugh. Oh, no. Really? Is what it feels like. Yeah. Or maybe he's just uncomfortable.

It's a lot weighing on him. I remember doing those late night shows where there's nine people. Yeah. And you always get like somebody who feels bad. Mm-hmm. So they've got to kind of do double time. Yeah, they feel bad that they're there. Yeah, yeah.

And that you're there. And they came to see you. Yeah, but they also want to help. For sure. Yeah. They're like, we got this, buddy. What'd you do in Elizabeth? I played sports and ate a bunch of drugs.

You were a football guy? Yeah, football, wrestling. I played sports year round, but football was the big one. What's your background? Are you an American Indian? No, I'm a quarter Mexican. Quarter Mexican? Yeah.

My grandma's from Wagon Mound. So she's one of those weird cave Mexicans down there. Wow, really? Yeah. What is that? Not a Spanish Mexican, indigenous Mexican. Yeah, they didn't know they were in America until a census person showed up. And told them?

Yeah, and they were like, you get mail now. Yeah. Yeah, and they were like, what are you talking about? They lived in a cave. And you can use this money. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, and they tried to give them maize. Yeah.

Yeah. So she married this old hobo named Ova, my grandpa, and they were interracial. A Denver hobo? He was like a, what was it, somewhere in Missouri hobo. But he would just hop trains back and forth to philadelphia and send money home oh wow he was like because denver's like hobo central yeah because i-70 and i-25 and then the train back in the day so you got the hobo grandfather and the um cave woman uh grandmother uh-huh that's pretty exciting this turned into a pretty decent

southwest story yeah and then what about the other side uh they were they were not as interesting i mean they were cool my grandpa was from mississippi on my mom's side and then my grandma was from somewhere in ohio and they ended up in colorado colorado is like a little is a mixed bag isn't it yeah i mean i grew up in new mexico and you know you get up we'd go up to Durango and then go up to, but you get up northern, it's pretty white. Incredibly white. And also, Denver's a very segregated city.

Yeah. Big Klan presence. Yeah, there's something, big Klan presence? Well, when it was founded, it was run by the Klan. Denver. Yeah, like in the early 1900s. I just feel there's that sort of weird kind of like, are you just really healthy or are you Christian? That's the springs.

It's tough to tell down there. It is, but there is sort of this kind of like mountain bike, you know, always wearing, you know, some form of workout wear. I'm shorts year round. Yeah. Yeah. And you're sort of like, God, you have a clarity, but is it the good kind? Right. What are you running from? Yeah. Well, I always go to like, God, you have a clarity, but is it the good kind? Right. What are you running from?

Yeah. Well, I always go to, like, what are you selling me? There's an immediate sense of I'm being condescended to by some spiritual bully. It's always a lot of judgment. Yeah, something. But there's a politeness to it. I mean, it's a real thin veneer of politeness. But I like Denver because there's still, like, a cowboy presence to it. There's, I mean, it's real thin veneer of politeness. But I like Denver because there's

still like a cowboy presence to it. There's still some, like downtown Denver, I've never seen more fucked up people on a weekend night than maybe Glasgow is the only other place that I've seen that much public drunkenness. But I think the altitude and their legal weed. We're the drunkest city in America, but also the healthiest city in america is what they say i went to like fucking doug benson did a 420 show before my show uh when i last i was up there they like they needed paramedics for two people and that was the afternoon dude you should uh the park civic center park on 420 is this you know 10 000 people and people are just dropping like flies. They'll take like a 15 gallon bong rip and then just collapse and everyone starts clapping. Like that was the

goal. I think a lot of it too is people not being able to handle their edibles. They don't know what they're getting into. Yeah. Well, my advice is always eat a little bit more than you were told to if you're a tourist. Yeah. Because if you're going to buy the ticket, take the ride. Right, right. But the ride might just be like the hotel room. Yeah, it might be in the back of an ambulance. You're going to panic. Yeah, yeah. There's going to be panic and maybe some nausea. So when do you make it down to Denver? So you played the football and then you go to good college? No, I thought I was going to play football in college, but I didn't. So I went to Metro State University, which is a commuter school right downtown in Denver.

Oh. And it wasn't for me. No. You know? What were you studying? What was the plan? Rhetoric and public address. Oh, so you kind of knew.

It was starting to come together. Well, I wanted to do comedy. You knew that already? Like as a little kid, I wanted to do comedy. Really? Why'd you know that? Because comedy was a really big deal in my family really

yeah like uh like Fred Willard and uh you know John Candy and all the like Stripes yeah

Ghostbusters was a very big deal but stand up well no I was gonna do Second City oh the plan was improv I wanted to do that

so you read you learned about that as a kid was your dad a hipster 100% a hipster intellectual guy uh yeah but someone you could also crack a beer with until he got sober uh-huh yeah um so he went far he did it he did it for sure yeah yeah and he would he had like

you know spin and rolling stone and all those magazines come to the house there was one time man where how old are you man i'm 33 so So your dad was just a little older than me? For sure. Yeah, he was born in 55. I'm born in 63. So he's actually of the generation that saw some action in the sense of bonafide hippie shit. Yeah, definitely. That's what Elizabeth is.

It was part of the Brushfire Rebellion where a bunch of hippies moved to the country and pretty much bought up the town so they could run the city council. Really? Yeah. And he was part of that? Well, he was from he just kind of got yeah you know grandfathered in he grows hair out and you're like you're one of us no my grandpa didn't stand for that shit oh no no long hair oh that was that's where he drew the line yeah he would wear overalls without a shirt that was as far as he went and old school alcoholism no drugs uh i think he would smoke

weed and they they well my mom and dad ate my mom was from Cleveland and she ate You know mushrooms and XL acid and stuff like that So they did it not when I was around so much when you before you were born. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they did the journey for sure Yeah, they went deep too. Yeah. Yeah, my mom was like around Kent State when all that shit was going down Oh, man, she hated the cops. It was really cool. So was Joe Walsh and the guy from Mother's bar mother's boss. So Joe Walsh played the guy from Mother's Bar. Mark Mother's Bar. So Joe Walsh played my mom's senior prom. Really?

Yeah, James Gang. Really? Mm-hmm. Oh, man. And I think that she said that she had beef with Chrissy Hynde. Uh-huh. I know that she said she hooked up with Drew Carey one time. Oh, that's not something you want to tell too many people.

Good point. Yeah. There's name dropping people that my mom hooked up with. I was hoping for more rock and roll but drew i guess is all right yeah no yeah but my dad he was into all the cool music yeah and like all the good books and so that's where you got it like because you know like i read this book like i'm reading it i'm like my my thing is is like as a guy that's written a couple memoir kind of books and you know a novel seems way out of my fucking wheelhouse but like one of my best friends is a novelist yeah yeah and i'm always like you know it takes

a lot for me to get through it has to be very well recommended fiction for me so when i saw this i'm like a comic wrote a book how good to you know how good could this be and it's self-published and it's self-published but the cover is pretty compelling thanks man richard ingersoll well my who's that he's a kid that i grew up with oh it's great like to the point where my friend the novelist sam lipsight his son saw this book because i sent it to sam i had two copies oh yeah because i found the one that you'd sent like a year ago and i sent it to sam who's a great novelist and his son's son's like no that covers fire that's what what I got. Fire? Yeah. That's what I want. Yeah, and this is a kid that don't read.

They're trying to get him interested in shit. So, yeah, you got him halfway. That's a big deal. But so I start reading it, and I'm like, oh, my God, this is about us. Like, it's not a memoir. It doesn't feel like a memoir at all, but it is about the world of comedy. No one's written about this, about this part of it. And this is a real part of it.

This guy is probably a couple years older than me, it feels like, that generation, where they were around for that 80s boom, and a lot of them thought they were going places but then they weren't and then the boom sort of receded and so they're with their own particular problems are left to scramble for a livelihood you know in one-nighters yeah they were shipwrecked yeah but like i knew this guy like i you know and the way you sort of blend in real dudes at certain points where i'm like this is you're talking you're going to put Rick Kearns in here and Rick Kearns is the guy. Yeah. I mean, if anyone's the guy, it's that guy.

Uh-huh. Kearns is the man. But he's not quite even that guy because he escaped into radio for a while. Yeah. Some of those dudes from the 80s figured out another way. And he got into radio. I guess he had some health issues like fucking like i did the san francisco comedy competition with kerns and i was driving him around oh my god and uh he's a mind fucker dude like you know he oh i don't know man i don't know if i'm gonna be able to do it and you know just

like and he'd get you so fucking bummed out by the time you got to the gig. You'd be like, you all right? And I'm like, I'm not. And then he'd go up and he'd fucking brain fuck you, that guy. So I've only known positive Kearns. And now he's taking a dark turn, of course. He has. Yeah, like his daughter did stand up in Denver. And I'm friends with Elise.

And then Rick came out of retirement pretty much and would come to open mics and just watch comedy. It's like, who's this old creep? Just, you know, drinking vodka straight. came out of retirement pretty much and would come to open mics and just watch comedy. It's like, who's this old creep? Yeah. Just, you know, drinking vodka straight. Uh-huh. And then, yeah, he was, ended up being very helpful to me and a bunch of Denver comics because he loves comedy.

He's hilarious. Mm-hmm. He was one of the great unappreciated acts. Mm-hmm. He's definitely one of the Billy Ray Shafers of the world. Definitely. Who's the protagonist of the billy ray shafers of the world definitely uh who's the the protagonist of your novel but uh yeah kerns is like there's a couple of those guys that were like kenny

rogerson's another one out of uh he was in boston when i was coming up you had that great live episode yeah and kenny was like fucking great he was so fucking funny and kerns too like kerns i would see when i was a doorman at the Comedy Store sometimes. But then when I got to San Francisco and he came around, but he just, his delivery was great. He's a rare thing. He's a rare kind of like cranky guy. The cranky guys that are funny and don't have to work for it, that's a rare type. And they should be cherished at all costs.

Yeah. Because it just doesn't happen that often. There should be statue of kerns in front of comedy didn't he have fucking major health issues yeah he's a bad booze hound yeah i know yeah right it's not fun he's still that way yeah man he'll call me and be like i got a new bit and then he'll repeat it like three times in an hour it's brutal i thought he was sober for I thought he was sober for a while. He was sober for a while. No. The last time I saw him, he's like, I sold my whole act to Ron White.

Yeah. Uh-huh. He did. For like a quarter of a mil. I think Ron wrote him a check at dinner. Yeah. Yeah. Ron writes a lot of checks for people.

Yeah. Ron's the man. I work with Ron a lot. Do you? Uh-huh. He's cool. Yeah, he's great. We did a couple shows at Pootie's Roadhouse in Texas, which was owned by Willie Nelson's

old manager, or road manager. Yeah. And Ron just ate mushrooms all day for the three days we were in this house together. He's just an animal, dude. Yeah. He's like an old dude. And then he'll have these moments of epiphany, like you're on his tour bus, and he's surrounded by people who love him, and then he'll just say shit like, I'm going to fucking die, man.

Nothing's going to save me. And you're like tripping and you got a check in your pocket from him and he's rich as hell. And you're like, Ron, it's fine. He's like, it's not fine. You don't know anything. You're like, okay, let's get Ron a towel. Of course that's true. I sat next to him on an airplane and watched him ask for more butter.

And I'm like, dude, what are you doing? Yeah, it's funny. He'll smoke eight cigars, but he'll drink like Michelob Ultra, so he's doing better. And his tequila. Yeah. I always feel baffling about the dudes that get into the spirits racket. It's just merch. Yeah, I know it's merch, but he's got some weird ones.

He just loves to start shit. He had a ceramics thing in Mexico, right? And he had like, he's got the tequila. I'm surprised he didn't get a restaurant. Does he have a restaurant? I don't think so. I don't think he's a big, he eats a lot of beef jerky and nuts. Yeah, he's definitely amazing that he's alive.

For sure. And he's one of those guys that can fucking, you know, just get up there, do a show in a blackout. Uh-huh. Like, you know, not even know he's on stage kind of dude. Right? But crush. Yeah, crush, totally. And I don't know.

I just think maybe your brain gets to a point where it's used to operating that way. So he can go from being on the tour bus wearing sweatpants. Yeah. And then put his jacket on and he's on stage and just people can't get enough. It's crazy. It's something I, you know something I kind of admire that. Yeah, definitely. There's something to be admired about a guy who is just swimming in fucking garbage inside

and can just go up there like a robot almost. Yeah. But kill. I mean, that's something that the Schaefer guy does in the book, kind of. The number of times you've figured out new ways to describe a hungover son, Sky. Like, the number of times you described a Sky either through a hangover or through those moments of clarity. Yeah, it was pretty good. You didn't repeat yourself.

I was surprised. Thank you. Me too. My dad was the editor, so he had a hand in it. He made sure it's like that. Yeah, I think you might use this adjective in the last description of the sky. My friend Nathan Lund's in the book, and I called him poor scene like eight times in the first draft.

Yeah, poor scene. Yeah, my dad was like, you got to figure out a new word to call Nathan fat. Corpulent, you know, piggish, whatever. Yeah. So anyways, college doesn't work out yeah and then you go what you're in a band yeah so i played drums my dad played drums and i played a bunch of drums in high school with my buddy clay who learned to play bass along to my drumming yeah then he was in ithaca so i was like fuck this i'm gonna go up there and just take lsd and be in this band and we toured a lot and it was it was a really important thing so he was in Ithaca, so I was like, fuck this. I'm going to go up there and just take LSD and be in this band.

And we toured a lot, and it was a really important thing for me. So this is the commune times? Yeah. So how old were you, like 20? I was like 20. Yeah, I couldn't drink legally yet. But you guys were a band that toured a lot? All the time. What was the name of the band?

Red vs. Black. Records? Red vs. Black. No, but were there records? No, we know burn our own cds and make our own merch and sell them yeah no records so you're in the you were in that loop the anarchy punk loop we were just in a very sincere loop but i mean that's who came out to see you were you opening for people or did you know no i mean we would go play we only played all ages shows

in diy venues we wouldn't play in bars we weren't ever a hit right no i get it but did you like but you did it we worked really hard life yeah we really were like we tried to be like black flag and minute men in our ethos right right and we'd show up to these places where kids were wearing the uniform with like the crass patches on their denim jackets yeah yeah and i'd be in you know basketball shorts and clay would be in a sleeveless denim shirt yeah yeah and we would just tackle the stage and people would be like what the fuck is this yeah they didn't have the synapses yet in their heads right to deal with who we were right and that was really cool to freak people out by looking normal right yeah huh well that was that's sort of a tradition for a certain type of uh punk

rocker it's sort of like mike watt and that crew Watt. I got tattoos of his all over me. Really? I love Mike Watt. He changed my life. I met him once. I was at the- O'Connell, dude. Yeah. That's my whole life. I make all my own merch.

I print my book. It's all because of Mike Watt and D. Boone. But I met him once, and I was downstairs in Mobile, Alabama, and he was upstairs. And they told me, Mike Watt is playing upstairs. And I was supposed to do an hour. I did 15 minutes. Of stand-up? Yeah, and they were furious. And I was like, keep the money. I got to go, Mike Watt is playing upstairs. And I was supposed to do an hour. I did like 15 minutes. And then they were like, yeah, and they were furious. And I was like, keep the money.

I got to go watch Mike Watt upstairs. And I totally just Mark David Chapman'd him. I just paced by the stage with my arms crossed, like not blinking with this dead eyed look on my face. And then afterward he was at his merch booth selling his merch. And I went up to him and I was like hey i just uh i you know you and he was like i know big fella i know and he gave me a hug and then like ushered me out of the room i definitely bummed out mike what oh no you didn't i don't think so but i'm a very sincere yeah and

also i'm huge yeah so when those two things come together right people flip out yeah no one's no one's comfortable yeah but they know he's you know he's probably out of he probably knew your good-hearted dude yeah and also i'm sure he's dealt with me since 1981 but he's pretty like he's pretty present sort of like in it guy like you know he's got his own language that guy yes dude like it's like when i interviewed him like he's speaking my watt language yeah and you got to kind of figure it out. He plays the thud staff. He's the man in the van with the bass in his hand.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember when my buddy Clay turned me on to the Minutemen in high school and we were listening to the Damned and Black Flag and all those bands. And we were like, we know what punk is. Because my dad would, he played punk when I was growing up, like the Pistols. Right. And that's just rock.

It was rock. But also when you're eight and your dad's doing the dishes to the sex pistols right you're like this is the coolest man alive yeah sure um but yeah we found the missing men or the minute men and we were like what have we been doing right what is this this is mutant rock yeah and then we found lightning bolt and like you know all the john dwyer bands and it was like okay yeah we are incorrect yeah we thought we had it figured out i'm gonna take this misfits patch off my letter jacket right and just we're gonna make pilgrimages to like providence and new

york and stuff yeah because these are the guys that are going out there these are the astronauts not the hacks right and they're also sincere dudes yeah for sure i always really like when people are earnest in their art well those two watt and dwyer are very sincere yeah and they're and they're very different and they're like very masculine without being disgusting about it right they have integrity right and they're

yeah because the integrity is that you know we're gonna keep making this music for us yeah we don't give a fuck

this is what we do this is our shit and maybe we'll find the people who like it right and hopefully they'll love it too right

or we'll just you know well that's sort of what you try to do with comedy I think too some people anyways it's a. Or we'll just, you know. Well, that's sort of what you try to do with comedy, I think, too, some people anyways. It's a little trickier because of, you know, what you're up against is that you're just talking. Yep.

So, but, you know, that was sort of this. That was interesting about the book, too, was that, like, he had this respect, he had these chops, but, you know, he could riff, right? So that was his big gift is that he could rip apart an audience. It is a double edged sword that you know when you can do that you can get pretty fucking lazy yeah you stink of the road yeah but it depends on how hacky you are with it but sometimes those are the best moments like if you like i write on stage i don't know how you do it 100 so like when you have those moments delivered to you you're like oh my god where'd that come from yeah because you're basically

cornering yourself. Then you let your ego have to back up what your mouth has gotten you into. Sure. And if it's not going well, you've got to figure out instinctively how to get the laugh to get out of the discomfort. Or burn it down. Sure. Go down swinging. Yeah, just like surrender.

Like, this isn't going to happen. Look, I tried really hard. Look how sweaty I am. Look how many shirts I've taken off up here. But the old time guys would tell you, like, you know, don't acknowledge that. Like, I just don't buy that shit. Like, you know, I got Freddie Roman got on my shit once about whining about bombing, you know, on while I was doing it.

I'm like, I don't owe them my fucking heart. Yeah. I'll either blame them, blame myself. But if I can't get a laugh out of the humiliation yeah what the fuck am i doing up here well that's why we were lucky in denver because we had guys like rick and you know chuck roy who if you were complaining at all would be like man you don't know what pain is and they'd tell you some horror story about being in a crab shack in new hampshire the crab shack in new hampshire well just those those gigs you guys had to do back in the day well yeah there's one-nighters everywhere you know that but that was also like the other thing about this book is that

like some of those one-nighters that you know low-level corporate gigs or like gigs like you know bookers you know get you you know that are you know they they couldn't afford another act you know or colleges that suck they really wanted dustin diamond who yeah right right yeah he'll bring people and everyone knows who he is for sure screech yeah or else they they just can't they they don't have the money so you get pawned off on these things and i was never right for any of those things so i would do these gigs where it's just like there's no way these odds are stacked against me this i'm not the happy guy no no and i don't like anyone in this room i would never have anything to talk to.

And I started doing those gigs. When I came up, I'd go feature for these dudes in Wyoming, South Dakota. Well, where'd you wait? So how'd that happen? So you get done with the band? How'd that end? Did that trick, did that just fade? Or was it a dramatic thing?

No. Me and Clay are still tight. But you just decided not to pursue music? Well, no. So I always played music but then there's a real lost period too because i was eating acid a lot really yeah in denver no like in ithaca well everywhere the commune it was just the acid thing yeah it was cool i would sell acid to those kids i never understood the guys that like could get used to acid for me it was like

for me it was like the one you know the three or four times I did it in my life, it was a lot to build up to. Yeah. And then it was sort of like, oh, this is, I don't know when this is going to end, but I don't know who I am anymore. For sure. Yeah. So I never understood guys are like three times a week, you know. Well, I don't think we knew the proper dosage either.

Because like back in the day when you got mushrooms, you had to eat the entire bag. Yeah. You wouldn't eat a gram of mushrooms. Right. You would eat the egg. But with mushrooms, you knew you were going to come down. Yeah, but I think mushrooms are much more, they're much more spiritual, for lack of a better term.

Whereas mushroom is like, or when acid, you're like, I am on drugs. Yeah, yeah. I am high on drugs right now. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. So I moved back to Denver, and me and Clay still had the band,

and we started this DIY house, this punk house called Mouth House in Denver. Mouth House? Yeah. Mouth House? Yeah. And we just had shows every night and it was just constant. Everyone in the house played music and you could just jam whenever you wanted at all hours of the day. Right.

So it was really creative time. It must have been smelly. Oh, for sure. It smelled like hate and just fear and poverty. Booze. Yeah. Sweat. Cigarettes indoors.

Non-stop cigs blasting yeah yeah yeah uh the we had one toilet for 18 people oh man yeah then we had one rule there because our buddy not washing their clothes no yeah people loved this guy loved to get nude yeah and this girl that lived there was like i don't want you getting nude so we had this big house meeting and we came to uh this rule that you can be nude but you can't sit down. You can't put your nude body on the furniture. Oh, okay. That's where you drew the line? That was right.

Yeah, okay. She was like, look, I don't mind your body. Yeah. I just don't want you sitting on the chair where I eat breakfast. And we were like, fair point. Squatter discussions. Yeah. And our rent was like 120 bucks and still I couldn't get it together.

Yeah. Yeah. So I just started doing standup real hard. That one was the first open mic. So this is where you were living? You were living in the DIY place? No, so I started stand-up in 2006, and I was a finalist in the Comedy Works contest in 2007,

and it was my fourth time on stage. Oh, really? And then I moved to Ithaca and didn't do any stand-up. Oh, I see. So you started, you did a few open mics, entered the competition, and did well? Yeah. Everyone hated me because I was just like a natural. So your fourth time up, you won?

No, I bombed in the finals. So it's three rounds. First round, crushed. Second round, crushed. Third round, totally ate my ass. Because it was high pressure? No, just because I wasn't a comic. I was a fraud. I was a naturally funny fat guy that people were like, oh, we'll listen to him for five minutes. You couldn't get away with it for 15? I had to go first, too. It was seven minutes.

Seven minutes. You just ate it, huh? Yeah, and I was like yelling at the crowd. No chops? No chops, zero. I had improv chops, but those aren't good in a club atmosphere. Where'd you get those? I did improv at the Bovine Metropolis Theater in Denver.

I did their entire 40-week thing and was on their house team and did their weekend shows and stuff. What, the games? Yeah, games and long form. I preferred long form. Uh-huh. Yeah. So you come out of that. So you had some-

But like Adam Clayton Holland, he hated me. Adam Clayton Holland? Yeah, he was like, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. You don't want to be hated by that guy. No, he didn't like me forever. Is it? It's like, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. You don't want to be hated by that guy.

No, he didn't like me forever. Because he's a dyed-in-the-wool stand-up, but he's also kind of smarty. Yeah, he went to Wesleyan or something. I don't think he liked me when he met me. And I think he was featuring for me. Sounds like Adam. Yeah, I mean, I did not get the good feelings from him. Yeah, I went to his 30th birthday party, and I gave him a book.

Yeah. This book? No, I knew he loved Jim Thompson. Oh, yeah. so I gave him I think the killer inside me and he was like cool when he threw it in the trash and I was like, all right Wow, yeah, that's dick move. We're very good friends now. I think he's also a guy that got humbled and Got nicer. Well, yeah, he's had some personal tragedy. Yeah terrible, but also even before that he was sweet you know yeah but he started out as a writer a guy who wrote didn't he write a column yeah in the westward in denver yeah and i read it religiously as a kid did you really well like from like 18 onward i was like this rules i can't wait to meet this guy yeah and i wrote him and his crew wrist deep productions a sincere letter about how i really like your shows and i i just want to

work with you guys and i ben kronberg told me they like made fun of it and put it on the wall uh so i moved back to denver and started doing stand-up real hard after the acid rock uh anarchy punk thing and there was i was still in bands and eating drugs and living in this house but i was also out every night doing stand-up in denver so what-hmm. So what were the options as a miker? Well, I hosted the Lion's Lair and the Squire. Lion's Lair. I feel like I've been there. Have I?

I don't know. It's the punk rock bar in Denver. Ah, probably not. Yeah. Yeah. So you hosted a stand-up night there? Yeah. I hosted Monday, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays.

Yeah. And I got up every night of the week. Oh, okay. Because someone told me, you know, if you're not on stage, someone else is getting better than you. I'm hyper competitive which fucking animal told you that uh TJ Miller okay yeah yeah there you go that's why I didn't want to bring it up well I don't got it it's okay he's like you know anyway TJ's got in trouble is all oh yeah yeah yeah so

I don't want I don't I right I I don't even remember what it is. I know he had a, there's a woman's problem, and then he had a brain problem, and then like. He had an aneurysm in like 2008. Yeah, I don't know. And now he thinks he's dead. He thinks this is heaven, and that he's dead. Yeah, see, he wore me out. Well, he was very generous and sweet to me.

Early on. Yeah. That's nice. And he was important to the kind of comedy that I do. He's a Chicago guy. He's from Denver. Oh, but didn't he come up in chicago yeah uh-huh okay so he gave you a work ethic well he just told me like you know you're not going to be as funny as other people if you take nights off right so i got up i got up i think in 2011 i got up 335 nights that year

wow you count them yeah well i did back then tell her he's still counting them that's weird i don't count him anymore he still does but then sometimes people would say i did it i did a show every night of the year and i'd just be furious in my room like where'd you get up on christmas yeah where'd you get up on easter what are you talking about yeah you're lying you're exaggerating yeah well you know it's like uh roll, he uses the same mic. Like he knows exactly, like he has mics that, you know, he knows he's talked through for how many days he's used that mic. Yeah. He's like, you know, it's magical shit, you know.

All right, so you're getting your hours in. Mm-hmm. And what, do you just build up to what, featuring? No, I didn't want to do that. So I would go on the road road and i'd like go to new orleans for a week and do every open mic and then i would just crush like fucking raising hell and then how much time did you have were you cheating no i had like a half hour because i was featuring at one-nighters like terrible one that's what i mean yeah but i didn't want that life of doing

those one-nighters and i also wanted to travel and i didn't have any money so i was like i'll just go stay on this couch of this person i met in new orleans or boston or austin and from the band days no i mean sometimes the band days but also people come through denver right you know comics yeah and then once you start killing at these open mics they're like hey if you're ever in town on wednesday i have a show that pays 50 bucks and you can close it so you you came up in the age of the br of the the comic produced show yes 100 yeah like i do work some clubs but i mostly work comic produced shows and you know right alt rooms and stuff yeah those weren't around when uh me and billy ray schaefer were starting out i

don't think he would care to do an alt room no he wouldn't even he would he would be like what the fuck is that yeah what do you mean we don't get paid? He doesn't know what a podcast is. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I would just do these shows and, you know, 45 weekends a year, just be somewhere, Omaha, Seattle, and make 300 bucks a weekend and come home. So that was the whole circuit. It wasn't a club circuit.

Not at all. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Because I remember that when I started flailing and losing any hope of doing comedy in some ways. I remember me and Andy Kindler and Eugene Merman went on a tour of these smaller rock venues. And it always felt weird to me. Do you know what I mean?

Because I essentially came up as a club comic. My mistake was not understanding it was a business and that you had to be nice to club owners and you had to keep going back to the same places to build an audience. I never quite got that. I got that, but I did it just the same way I learned from punk rock, which is you go and you play for eight people

and then they bring a friend and you have 16 and the next time you might have 30 and then... But you're a respected guy. People have good things to say about your comedy for sure. I've watched it. It's funny. Thanks man. Yeah.

Yeah. I finally got JFL last year after auditioning six times and man, did I have a chip on my shoulder up there? Did you? It's crazy. Yeah. Oh, you were like,

you know, like finally fuck it. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I was up there and people would be like new faces. Yeah. I was unwrapped to new faces and I'd meet managers and agents and they'd be like we met in la like six years ago when i was like a you know like an

assistant right to an agent it's like what are you doing up here as a new face and i'm like motherfucker i don't know yeah i should have been here six years ago yeah i would just walk around to people and i'd be like hi i'm sam talent who are you with and they'd be like cia and i'd be like all right yeah but then when they talk to you and they're like So what do you got? What are you working on? And I say I have a novel. Yeah, they couldn't walk away faster. Really? Oh, yeah, they don't want a novel. They won't know you got a YouTube series That's the thing about managers and agents Which I don't have is that they want you to do all the work now and then they'll just come in and swoop you up

They always do dude. They you know, they don't like that's the big myth that they're like, you know I'm gonna make you a star. Oh wait, it's like they're wait around. They'll't, like, that's the big myth that they're like, you know, I'm going to make you a star. No way. It's like they wait around. They'll keep you in the, what do you- The hip pocket. Yeah, yeah. Until, like, maybe something happens, and they're like, here we go.

Right. Let's do it. Look, I'm going to get you into Cap City comedy. And it's like, I already headlined there. I can do Cap City. Yeah. I know Rich Miller. I already know that guy.

Yeah. I remember at JFL, Pete Holmes was hosting, and he was like, what kind of intro do you want? And I was like, can you tell him I'm at Penguins in Cedar Rapids next weekend? Did he say, I played there? No. No, he just, he laughed so hard. And he was like, you're legit.

And I was like, thank you, Pete Holmes. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Pete Holmes validated you. Well, that's nice. And to go from Montreal, the issue was I was hanging out

with too many Canadian comedians. In Montreal? I think that they thought I was Canadian. Oh, really? Yeah, and then they don't care. Well, I don't think that, like, I don't think, it's weird that almost everybody up there

is a known quantity already now. Yeah. And it's really just one of these sort of weeks of partying for people on that side of the business. Yeah. They don't really give a fuck fuck nor can they really do anything really like i don't think i had a legit agent most of my career and you know i finally fired my powerful manager when uh he played uh like one of the first wtfs and it's like i don't get it i'm like i can't you know and i uh i don't know dude

it's like the whole it's all what am i trying to say it's it you figure out what you really want out of it and then you got to just get it no one's gonna do anything for you and you seem to know that i do know that now after being closer to the industry i know it 100 well what when you started thinking about writing this book though how long ago was that uh my wife did her first two years of med school in las vegas yeah in 2016 right and i wrote it when i was there over the course of like a year but you know like where did you what experiences were you drawing from those one-nighters i mean primarily yeah and? Yeah. And just all the horror stories. Like, who were the guys you opened for? Because you mean the horror stories you had to listen to while you're driving fucking tired old headliners places?

Yeah. And then also just the horror stories that I would accumulate by doing these shows. Yeah. Like, what are the ones you remember? Well, like that duck shit bingo story from that book? Yeah. That's happened. That was 100% true story.

I remember watching this big fat carny put his duck back in the cage, I knew what I got paid and he's just over there counting money and I really wanted to slit his throat. That was like when I was reading them, like, this is one, there's no way. Oh yeah. There's no way the duck shit bingo story can be true. It's happened man. Where did that happen? Happened in Greeley, Colorado. Wow. Yeah. That was the one I thought you made up. No dude, that was legit. All these shows I've done. Yeah. That was the one I thought you made up. No, dude. That was legit. All these shows I've done. Yeah. For sure.

You know what fucking hit me, though, was the weird couple that- Because I met that couple in Texas. Yeah. What is it- Florida. Yeah. Florida, Texas. The one I met was in San Antonio.

They both come up to you like, so what do you got going? I'm like, I'm not fucking your wife. I'm not- That's what they want, too. I know. Every time. I know. But it know but uh but you're hotter than me dude why do you want to watch me plow your wife i don't know yeah yeah but like like when i read that i'm like this is like real and i don't know why they pick comics i don't know maybe they just i don't know what it is i think they think that we're debauched we're debauched and broken and we're lonely and we'll probably be up for it we were yeah we're like ituched. We're debauched and broken. And we're lonely. And we'll probably be up for it.

Yeah. It's almost predatory. Yeah. What's he going to be doing by himself? And then they're like, don't put this in your act. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're licking their lips. It's like, don't worry.

I don't want anyone to know about this. Yeah. And that poor guy, the poor fake guy, Billy Ray Schaefer, is all fucked up. And he goes back. And there's almost a moment there when he's fucking kicking that guy's ass. You're like, take it easy. That guy's uncalledalled for this guy took you in and fed you top shelf gin yeah yeah he gave you his wife and he didn't even i don't even think like it suggested like i don't know how you see it but they didn't roll him he left it there left his wallet fucking

idiot yeah definitely but i've also been the guy who has his wallet and he lost it and then you're just homicidal until you remember that you left it at your friend's house. Yeah. But just all the, like, you know, his, yeah, man, like, when I read it, I really think that not enough can be said about the part, the world of comedy it captures. Because if you're in it, like you were in it, and like I was in it, like Stan Hope was in it, guys who came up, my generation, guys you opened for and some of the experiences you had. I mean, this is what fucking comedy looks like. Yeah, this is what it was. When, you know, there were all those guys out there

in the 80s where you're like, I don't know what happened to that guy. You know, I don't know, you know, and guys like Frankie Bastille, who you've heard me talk about, he was like one of these guys. There were literally guys on the road that were, they didn't, Frankie Bastille did not want his name in the paper or on the marquee because he owed back taxes and he owed child

support. Yeah. So he didn't want to be known where he was. That's crazy. And he's a comic. Yeah. He's on stage publicly. Right.

He's the guy that got nailed when somebody heard him on a radio show. The IRS went and got him because he was on a morning radio show. Yeah. Or an ex-wife. I can't remember which. But this whole world of road comedy and what it kind of became. And this is a guy who did The Tonight Show with all the promise in the world. And I like the ex-con trip.

I mean, I like the fact that he was in jail. I think that's one of those things where it really rang true to me. Like, when you hear about a comic, like, oh, you don't know about that guy? Yeah, what about... He's in fucking jail, man. And then he started doing comedy in jail. Like, no shit. It's like Joey Diaz.

Right. Yeah. Did he do time? Oh, yeah. For, like, kidnapping. I must have talked to him about that. I can't quite remember. Right. And he was quite remember. Right.

And he was in Denver. No, I know. His whole story is in Denver. All the cocaine stories. I always loved the fact that you were surrounded by, like, freaks and scumbags and mutants and pirates. That's what people don't get about that era of comedy. It's not just, like, people who didn't fit in or nerds or, you know you know just social oddballs some of these dudes were fucking criminals they couldn't do anything else nothing else and there it was it was like people who get into preaching like it's either that or prison

what's your fucking hustle like so many of these guys were just doing it to live and they figured it out and it's a romantic lifestyle you're somewhere every night somewhere new is it though i really find the romance and stand-up i like it took me years to like be happy to be away from my home yeah like i'm like i don't have no it's just gonna be in this hotel room it's great yeah but it used to be i'd get out there not unlike this guy billy ray shaver where yeah i mean there's a romance to it but like there is also this weird type of loneliness that happens when you're staying in that fucking you know hotel the cheap hotel in the part of town where you can't fucking go anywhere you're not near anything or worse you're like it's connected to a mall but there's a type of loneliness that is you know above, and it's, like, beyond good and evil. Yeah.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's a high lonesome, and, yeah, you kind of turn into, like, Colonel Kurtz by the end of the weekend. Yeah, but it's only a weekend. That's the weird thing.

It's like, as soon as you get to that hotel, you're like, oh, where do I go to be bad? It's a horror. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fucking, it's not, it's so weird and dumb. Yeah and dumb yeah and also like it's really hard i'm sure everyone talks about it where you get off stage after being the best thing to happen to

that room yeah and then what are you going to do with all that adrenaline the worst yeah back like when once i got sober it was just like fucking ice cream and candy yeah just load up on shit and bring it to the room. You should be immense. You should be a big fat pig. Well, I didn't like it. I never felt good about it. But like there is, it's like you don't know what to do

and you do want to do something. And that's how you get into trouble. Uh-huh. You know, like, and that's how, like this guy with the cocaine, like I just, when I read this,

I just remember not being able to sleep. Like, because you can't drink yourself down from cocaine the cocaine's gonna always outspeed everything else so unless you've got downers you're fucked and like when i was reading this shit i was like oh that morning thing that's terrible and you gotta he starts drinking again like he really reminded me of uh that dude in money which is a good thing where you're sort of like can he live like this this? At least that guy in money was rich. Right, but you started to realize, oh, this is the device.

This guy is all the bad appetites. Definitely. But this guy, Billy Ray Schaefer, is a guy you know. I know this guy. Well, every comic reads the book and they're like, hey, is this about X? And I have someone I've never heard of. Who have they listed? Who have people asked you about?

Well, I don't. Troy Baxley comes up a lot. I don't know that guy. Oh, my God. Baxley was, he was like one of the kings. Is he dead? No. Oh.

He's holding on somehow. Yeah. He's a medical miracle. Wow. And he was in Denver, but he worked the road all the time. And a lot of people would be like, this happened to Baxley. Did you know that story? I'm like, no. like no they're like yeah he fell off a bar stool and broke his nose open and then that was tom rhodes too well see you got one too no tom rhodes that's

what got him sober he fell off a stool and broke his face and uh realized it was time to crit no the story i heard about the guy with the bloody nose on stage yeah that's either i've heard it john fox was who i heard about ollie joe prater too stage yeah that's either i've heard it john fox was who i heard about ollie joe prater too prater too yeah when the nose starts bleeding right yeah don't who doesn't anyone party anymore i heard that was john fox i heard it was ollie joe i think it happened to both of them you've heard that story of ollie joe where he was underneath the blanket and it caught on fire i don't know that one he got too big and fat to get up the stairs so he would just sit on stage underneath the sheet,

and he would smoke cigarettes under there, and one time he lit the sheet on fire, and it was just revealed in a ball of flame that he was on stage the entire time. When he's like, oh yeah, with the canes. Yeah. Hobbling Ollie Joe Prater, dragging other people's jokes from town

to town. Yeah. Everyone in Denver has stories about Ollie Joe taking their jokes. Really? Did he start there? No, but I think he came through a lot. Because Denver's weird because there's- That's a long time ago, dude. That's before my time.

Well, there's nowhere to go between Chicago and LA. So it's Denver. Right. Or it's like Omaha or Salt Lake City, but- But Denver's sort of a real city. Yeah. And John Fox was another guy. John Fox.

Oh, boy. I've only heard stories about him. The mayonnaise jar thing. Yeah. The mayonnaise Oh, boy. I've only heard stories about him. The mayonnaise jar thing. Yeah, the mayonnaise jar, right. Yeah, don't ever eat mayonnaise on the road because John Fox blew his load into a jar of mayonnaise. I was going to be vulgar about it. Yeah, then...

But there's, like... I just remember, like, what... He's... I just remember we were at a table. We're doing drugs. It was, like, a bunch of people. But I think it was... I think remember we were at a table, we're doing drugs, it was like a bunch of people, but I think it was, I think it was a Kennison night,

and for some reason John was there, and we're all talking about the road, and it's like, you know, and you know how you start comparing stories, but there's always the one story, you're like, what the fuck?

Like, my God. Yeah, and John Fox, like, you know, it was like after a few stories, he's like,

yeah, man, you know when you're on the road, and you got a hairbrush stuck up your ass, and you're jerking off off and you're like, God, I hope I don't die like this. And there's just that moment where everyone's like, what? They tap out. All right. Yeah, you win.

You win, John. But then the next time you're on the road, you're like, how do you put a hairbrush up your ass? What kind of brush was it? Yeah, yeah. How does that fit up there? Is that a good thing? This one's a rubber handle. How much coke do you got to be on to enjoy a hairbrush up your ass. What kind of brush was it? Yeah, yeah. How does that fit up there? Is that a good thing? This one's a rubber handle. How much coke do you got to be on to enjoy a hairbrush up your ass?

But, yeah. Yeah, those guys. But who were the other cats? I mean, I know that Norm plays a part in the book as Norm. And I remember Rick. I don't know if I knew any of the other Denver guys that are actual real guys. Who were they? Like Kevin O'Brien and Nathan Lund are friends of mine.

Yeah, I don't know those guys. They're my generation. Oh, they were in the dressing room with Norm? Yeah, they're on the show. But isn't there sort of like oral history like where you actually have

comics telling stories? Yeah, I had like Phil Palisole and Nora Lynch. Yeah, I met that guy. You've known, you probably met Phil. Yeah. Hippie Man's in there,

John Novosad, who is the best comic to come out of Denver. Really? Yeah, and people, like I remember one time I was mean to Bobcat Goldthwait because he was like, Hippie Man opened for him the night before when Bobcat came back. And I was having lunch with him and Caitlin Gill. And he was like, yeah.

And this like old road hack opened for me. This guy, Hippie Man. And it's like, first of all, he's the king. And second of all, your name is Bobcat Goldthwait. You're going to be mad at a guy for having a nickname and caitlin had to like she like grabbed my leg under the table and was like chill chill chill well you know bobby get you know he gets a little snotty he's been great ever since but i remember getting my cockles up because you don't talk shit about hippie man

well i think that it's a weird thing that like you know it's definitely there's something about those old timers that you know that like it's not about their material after a certain point. Yeah. It's about their perseverance and their sort of humility from, you know, just decades of humiliation. Yeah. That, you know, you got to respect the legend is what it is. Well, also, but Novosad, he writes new stuff all the time. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. Like, I don't know. Look, I think it's very difficult, like, when people who do comedy, when I meet young people, I'm like, well, you know, there's only a handful of guys who are going to make a real living doing the stand-up. So if you've got a knack for writing shit, figure out a way that, you know, you can continue to work.

Or just get really good at TikTok. It doesn't matter. i don't matter i don't even know what that is but like there's some dudes that i started with that well i mean i know what it is but i don't know and i'm not on it yeah but there's some dudes i you know started with their big showrunners like they're big writers to get into you know they went to they got on the other side of it yeah you got to be a real irresponsible self-involved fuck to decide like i'm just gonna do the stand-up yeah this is what's real this is pure that's me me too man i'm so glad i had this book or else i'd be broke right now

because i made all my money off stand-up yeah i couldn't like i well i'm i'm fucking proud of you for writing the goddamn book like a real novel thank you jesus christ like i mean i've what i just i couldn't write for other people i couldn't't see. You know, like now, I didn't even like to collaborate. That'll happen later. I'm bad at that. Yeah. I'm bad at collaboration. But now, like, you know, I'm doing the acting thing here and there.

And it's like, you know, I don't know. You pivoted. It worked out. I pivoted because like something like some weird cosmic timing finally worked out. Yeah. The desperation of talking to my peers. That's right. So this book you wrote, how long?

Like probably a year. I wrote 150 words of a different thing, and then the first chapter of this book was part of that, and then I was like, this shit's bad. I'm going to follow this guy around, and then just cranked him out. Well, I like that, you know, and I don't think it's just because I'm a comic that,

you know, it's not so much you're rooting for him but you're like wow how far is this gonna yeah go you know where does this go and that the details about who he was you know in terms of these kind of guys the ex-wife the you know the sort of selfishness the kids that they don't know like all of that stuff seemed it all rang very sort of true and the psychology of the character seemed to hold up. I know it wasn't going to end well. No, yeah. I don't think anyone got their fingers crossed.

I also don't like books that end happy. No, I like this. It reminded me of Bruce Wagner. Have you ever read any of Bruce Wagner's books? Oh, my God. The ending of his first book, Force Majeure. Jesus Christ. You would like that shit, man.

I would. I love bleak novels. Bruce Wagner, there's a few. There's a Hollywood trilogy, but Force Majeure, the first one, yeah. He got a little complicated. He's a real smarty pants. But there's a few. I like when a guy talks about a book and they go, yeah.

It's like reading Larry Brown. It's like, this guy just risked his life for $400. I love that shit. And you gave me this book, the Cormac McCarthy Blood Meridian. I got to read it. It's the best book in the English language, I think. Wow. At least in the American canon.

Okay. I think it's tops. And I read Moby Dick, and this is better. Wow. Mm-hmm. So he's one of your guys. Cormac McCarthyccarthy and dennis johnson and sign in jones yeah cool i read those i read that book and angels and this book the dig

by sign in jones over and over again while i was writing my book just to know what a good novel sounded like but you didn't find yourself glomming oh dude for sure yeah i didn't quite notice i didn't i i don't know those writers so i wouldn. Well, there's a part in there where I start using colons instead of periods. Yeah. Because I was reading Graham Greene. I was reading Brighton Rock, and I was like, damn, he uses colons. Really cool. I just like the consistency of the character and where you took him.

It really kind of goes somewhere. And there's just the scenes. That fucking vibe of, not that anybody needs to know this or that, you know, it's just me or that I'm only going to relate to this. But that feeling of sitting around when everything is done, just thinking like, that shit's going to turn around. If I could just get some blow, if you're on blow and it's 2.30 and you're like, this is just about to happen. Yeah. And there are no options, but real sad ones.

Yeah. Yeah. And what are you going to do? And that all that shit. What was that weirdo? The guy who rolled him. Is that based on a real guy? So that's based on a guy in Denver and that he gets rolled right behind mouth

house in Denver and five, your place. Yeah. That old house I lived in. And that guy is, uh, he was just a creep he used to hang out at mouth house and like smoke speed he would steal all of our light bulbs and smoke

speed out of them huh yeah like with the hat uh what was he wearing in the book i can't remember he's wearing like a trench coat right right but he was a character a creepy character yeah no good yeah this guy would wear fingerless gloves and a leather cowboy hat right that's what yeah yeah that's a detail and uh and poor uh poor billy ray was too fucked up just looking for a party man that's the fucking problem with that good time charlie so tell me about the because i i you know i don't i guess self-publishing is a mixed bag oh yeah it's very shameful, it's not shameful. I think it is. I was deeply ashamed to have to self-publish this book.

It's my biggest failure, I think. I mean, Mishka got me an agent who was very powerful in memoirs, and he loved the book. Who's that? This guy, Bird Leovol. Uh-huh. And he loved the book, and he sent it off to people, and they were like, who's going to read this book? And I was like, well, fans of standup will probably read this book. And you know, most podcasts are hosted by standups.

Right. I could probably get on some podcasts and promote it. Yeah. And they were like, eh, we're not going to take a chance on your first novel. Take a chance. I mean, they don't give you any money for your first novel anyways. No. Taking a chance.

And thank God I didn't publish naturally because now because achieved wealth oh good yeah well i mean the thing about publishing is that like then it comes out and then you got to rely on a goddamn you know uh publishers weekly well no but you know there's that in the kirken kirker kirkland or whatever it is kirkus kirkus reviews yeah but but but the in-house publicist who doesn't want to be doing that job. No. And a lame-ass book tour that is not going to really sell books. No.

So wait, so you self-publish. How do you do that? Because it says the too-big-to-fail press. Yeah. So that's just something you created? That's my publishing company, which is just what I get my checks through now. Oh, so okay. So you set up an LLC? S-Corp. Oh, an S-Corp. Just to my father. Okay. He's stoked. He's cooking the books. Oh, good. So to self-publish, walk me through the steps of that. So you got the full book, it's edited, you're ready to go. Yeah. And then

I just did it through Amazon. Amazon KDP, you can upload a book to that and pick out a cover. Oh, really? You pick out a cover? Yeah. Well, I had the cover designed by a friend and family. And they just run it off per order? Yeah. It's like-

How much do they charge? They charge like $5 a book. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then I order them in lots and then people buy them off my website at samtalent.com. Uh-huh. And then I mobilize ship and package everything myself. But they can also get them on Amazon.

They shouldn't. If you're a listener and you want this book, go ahead and get it at SamTalent.com. Oh, okay. Yeah, because Amazon doesn't give you a lot of money. I see. Yeah. So there's a ceiling to that? So Amazon gives me, I think, $6 a book, and if you buy off my website, I make, I think,

$17 after shipping and everything. What other merch you got? I got shirts I make, I think, 17. Oh, great. After shipping and everything. What other merch you got? I got shirts on there. I got sweatshirts. I got beanies. You can also go to cofungus.com and get some mushrooms from us. Oh, yeah. So you're moving the fresh mushrooms to the gourmet outlets?

Fresh mushrooms and, you know, you can get lion's mane. It's like, what's that called when you take it to feel better? Oh, I don't know. What do you mean? You know, like GNC, not stimulants, supplements. Supplements. Yeah, they're a supplement. You have lion's mane supplements?

Yeah. And then also we'll send you a fruiting block of mushrooms, and you can just put it in your kitchen and cut it open, and you've got mushrooms. All right, so where's the stand-up right now? I'm an author now dude i'm done with that racket you lived the life through billy ray shaffer dude you've retired like hung up the hat yeah dude i've listened to your show since you were doing like pepitone at

the end of every episode oh yeah you know like way back in the day yeah and i'm always like yeah dude i gotta get on marin like this is a big goal you know like this feels good yeah but to be on here as an author first in a comic second yeah is totally a marin experience i'm like fuck man if i knew i had to just write a great book i would have done it a long time ago to get on here well i mean i mean i would have found you eventually i i think you know i don't know i'm just kidding. It's an honor for sure. Oh, oh. Like, there's a generation of comics who I don't know. Yeah. You know, and it's like, I wish I did.

I felt like there was a time where I knew everybody. Yeah. But that was a long time ago, and I didn't know everybody. Like, I don't know who Troy is. Mm-mm. You know, but it's just a generational thing. But no one's doing much comedy now. It's weird, though, man.

I don't't but how do you feel about because like i'm wrestling with a thing now where like i wonder if i'm done yeah i think a lot of people are because like but also not because of the covid because my last special like that's the best i can do yeah and like i'm gonna go from i can come from a different place i think i'm changing in certain ways but i'm but I'm not able to work through anything on stage, but maybe that's making my heart bigger. Because I'm not sure that getting up on stage four nights a week, I think it's probably emotionally, psychologically more stifling

than it is sort of growing. Yeah. I don't know. Well, also, we've had a whole bunch of time to like have introspection that was forced on us by not being out there and giving yourself away every night right because i i don't know any other life besides being gone three nights a week home for four but i'm loving it dude like being with my wife sleeping in our same bed yeah going swimming riding my bike like getting healthy having a life yeah having a legitimate life without like without

like that well here's the thing that i and i talked about is like like i know no one's doing it yeah so i can relax because so much of it is sort of like well fuck he's out there every i got they're out i gotta fuck right you know that kind of weird i'm hyper competitive i know exactly what you're talking about or like you'll see your friend you'll be like oh shane torres is at this club but i can't get in there fucking sean patton got acme what the fuck that guy come on me out of there for like a decade yeah i know about your acme issues that rules you're back though right yeah yeah it's okay man take a breath mark you got it it was also funny when your instagram live you were talking about the book and i was like, oh, this rules.

And then you were like, yeah, Sam Talent. I don't know if he gives a shit about my comedy. I was like, come on. Mentioning Stan Hope and that's how insecure I still am. And that's the same with all of us. I'm not in the book. I didn't make the book. I know.

But it is weird how that kind of stuff sticks. But yeah, the reprieve has been kind of interesting. But then I got on those Instagram lives to get that juice. I still wanted that juice. It was more, it's not about the audience. It's about the thinking on your feet thing. Yeah. I think that's what I miss more than anything else is the immediacy of having to, like, do it.

Yeah. You know? And your body was getting some kind of drug response from it. I guess. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But it was just, like, I'd gotten so – I didn't get comfortable, truly comfortable on stage until, you know, within this last decade. Within the last, you know – I mean i was faking uh fearlessness forever and then at some point it gave way to real kind of

like oh i live up here but it's not it wasn't my whole career it's like within the last eight years oh yeah man i mean i'm the same way where i write on stage and i can't write a joke i have to improvise right and it's better that way yeah but it's got to be a lot of stress on our hearts dude yeah you think i mean just think about that stress every night that stress response that we're giving our bodies sometimes but usually i know but like usually when you get that first when when you okay so when you work like that you've got the idea so yeah you put the idea out and usually that's enough to keep you going with it so you're getting a laugh on the idea and then you're like you know let's see how that conversation unfolds so after a certain point it's not as much of a strain on your heart because you're just trying

to build on this fucking idea right yeah and that's sort of exciting but also i'm in the i always want to fucking crush dude like i need to kill when i'm on stage right and if i'm not crushing i'm doing everything I can to crush or I'm burning the house with me. I'm going down in a ball of flame. Yeah, I don't know. I think I stopped thinking about crushing and was more concerned with honest laughter.

Because there's a pace you have to maintain to crush. Yeah, definitely. And I could see how that could be a strain. Whereas I just like to be in my pace. I don't want to. I'm not going to. I used to be that way. I got hit.

I got hit. I got to crank it up. I got to put this one in there. I'm going to lose them. And so I got to a point where I just sort of like, my pace is good enough. And this shit's funny. I know I'm funny. So I want it to be organic.

I don't want to do the trick. I don't to be organic. I don't want to do the trick. I don't want to pace. You know, I don't want to. Yeah. Doing the trick does feel dirty every time you do it. Like when you know your trick. Yeah. And you're like, ah, back here again.

Yeah, yeah. Fuck, write a fucking joke, dude. Just furious at yourself. Like, oh, you made fun of that guy's hat again. Cool. Nice callback to this guy's hat. I used to do it at the store all the time. It's like, ah, fuck.

It feels a little tight. I'm just going to open with those ones that i know work here yeah definitely then you just hate yourself while you're on stage embarrassed yourself right if i get one good one like as long as i don't do the whole set like that yeah but then you sort of rationalize you're like but this is a good joke you're like I still got it figured out. Yeah. Well, it is a relief. So how long you've been married? I've been married for, since 2016. She's a doctor? What kind of doctor? She's a family medicine doctor. A general? Practitioner? GP? Yeah. Well, family specifically. She's a first year resident in Fort Collins. We're in Fort Collins now. My brothers live

in there. Oh yeah? Yeah. It's beautiful, man. It's a great city. He's liking it. Yeah. I'm really glad that we got in there instead of Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Wow. The Mayo Clinic sniffed around her. Oh, for the residency. Yeah. I was like, baby, I love you. I want you to be successful. But you're close to family too, right? Yeah. Hour away. Yeah. Yeah. My brother, he just landed in Fort Collins after a lot of, you know, he finally kind of landed on his feet and he's digging it. Come through, man. I will.

Because he's like, you know, he's up there. It's beautiful. Do you like to ride bikes? Well, I like to hike. Yeah. You got it. Horsetooth Reservoir? That's what I hear.

The bike riding thing, I can't do. There's too many guys my age with their little superhero outfits on. They love it. It's ridiculous. It's their whole identity. It's ridiculous. Then they'll see me chugging along on my five speed i just see them up on the hike that i take i'm like what are you guys doing you call each other about the outfits this four i guess i guess it's easier on your shit they're coordinating well no to bike like i hike and i

can feel it you know beating my bones up yeah i think the biking is supposed to be it's better for your joints i think correct right that's why i, it's better for your joints, I think. Correct. Right? That's why I do it. Because I'm so immense. But how far do you got to bike to get a good fucking buzz? I'll blast like an hour.

You know, you just put on a podcast and hit the trails. I was on Zeppelin today. It was all Zeppelin today. Man, I was blasting Lightning Bolt in the desert on the drive here. Yeah? Getting pumped.

Good? Yeah. Is that the new, that's the new one? Oh, no, Lightning Bolt's this band that- Oh. I thought it was the new ACDC. No, dude, ACDC sucks. Well, they didn't used to.

Well, these two cage fighters that I know from Arkansas, they were out at my house like a couple weeks ago. Yeah. I told them ACDC sucked and they wanted to pants me and push me over. Really? Yeah. I'm a big fan of all the records all the bond records and back in black but then i kind of drift it doesn't sway and it doesn't rock hard enough it's just big riffs

i guess but i i like the uh it does i think he swings i think phil can i i think i like that i like that beat i can yeah sure man for sure i'm gonna i i appreciate your take on it and i'm not gonna judge you on it but i will i will stand by the first six acd and I'm not going to judge you on it, but I will stand by the first six ACDC albums. I'm going to disrespectfully disagree with you. That's fine. Okay. But tell me about this Lightning Foot business. Oh, Lightning Bolt, there's a drum and bass band that makes it.

Sorry, I just did the old guy thing. Who's this lightning head that you get half the word wrong? What is this lightning rod thing that you enjoy? What's this Thunder Nose? They're just, they're the most important band to me. Oh, really?

Yeah. I love them. Where are they from? They're from the same Fort Thunder that John Dwyer started at when he was in Pink and Brown. They're out from Providence.

Oh, from Providence, not pre-Bay Area John Dwyer? Yeah, before he moved out here. Mm. Mm-hmm. I think I did all right with John. You crushed. Yeah. He was so cool, man. Yeah, that just got him here. I think I did all right with John. You crushed. He was so cool, man.

Yeah, that just got him to be himself. Yes. Yeah. Got to slow that guy down a little. Because I listen to him sometimes in interviews, and I'm like, all right, John, we all know you're the coolest guy ever. Yeah. Let's just be a person.

Yeah, it took a while. Well, I think the fact that we shared a girlfriend at one- Yeah, that was a revelation. Yeah, she didn't talk to me no more. It's all right. It happens. You guys gave each other what was necessary at the time. I'd like to look at it like that, but then you would think that through that, with that disposition, why can't we be social?

Yeah. You know what I mean? Or at least say hi. Or at least, why can I not feel like there's another person out there hating me? It does weigh on you. It does. All that psychic trauma on your personal Christmas tree. Dude, when you've lived the life, that's the one thing.

Like, even in sobriety, it's like, there's still, I'm not saying they're waking up hating me. Yeah. But there's still people out there where someone goes, do you know Marc Maron? They're like, ugh. Like when you're talking about that Wagner guy's books. Oh, I know him. Oh, I know him. Yeah, I know him.

Yeah, yeah. You don't have no kids? No kids. What are you going to do? We're going to have kids. Okay. Yeah. I guess you're young.

I've fought it for a long time. Well, now that you realize you don't have to do comedy anymore. It's a relief. Now that you're like, maybe I worked through that. That's the other fucked up thing about it, because I've always been a guy that's sort of like don't say that comedy's therapy it's not

but there's some part of me having this forced down time where I'm like maybe I worked through it maybe maybe I can be myself the therapy thing doesn't piss me off

when people call it art I get upset oh yeah I never copped to that it's a part of the trick I don't know if I'm an artist I mean like

the only thing that makes me an artist is that i'm inconsistent damn all right now i'm on board you figured it out yeah that's the only part you know yeah the rest of them are just doing the fucking dance yeah i'm glad to be in la and enjoying it because every time i come out here the dread it's a nightmare yeah i gotta meet how long you been out uh i got here yesterday are you going right back or i don't know i'm gonna see some friends tonight you know it's hard right because of the covid oh yeah i can see two of them my wife said oh chris charpentier and danny moppin a couple of buddies i usually come out here though and like i'll be auditioning for something with a bunch of young precious

comedians yeah and I see their act and I'm like I'm gonna fucking bury them yeah get out there and do my act and people are like what the hell chill out man well that's the thing is like if you're too funny yeah then they're like yeah they're like we don't get really you know they don't see you yeah unless you're sort of half tanking right because if you just kill you, oh, I'm the guy doing the job. Yeah. You must be the other guy. That's that great line in fucking The Departed.

It's like the only good line in The Departed where they fuck up the sting. We don't got cameras around back? What do you mean there's no cameras around the back? Yeah. And the guy goes, who are you? It's like, I'm the guy doing his job. You must be the other guy.

Yeah. Alec Baldwin's so good in that movie. That was Marky. Oh, okay. That was Mark his job. You must be the other guy. Yeah, Alec Baldwin's so good in that movie. That was Marky. Oh, okay. That was Mark. Mark. Yeah, but Baldwin was good. Yeah.

But Wahlberg, I'm always, like, when Wahlberg sinks his teeth into something, it's fucking good. I can put that movie on and my wife's ready to go. What, Departed? Yeah. She likes it? She really likes that movie. You know, it's a little fragmented for a Scorsese movie, but I do enjoy the performances.

She gets worked up. Yeah. The only problem with it is it's like Nicholson is like a clown. Oh, for sure. It's just like it's done. Do you know what I mean? They could have, you know. It's almost like it's bad.

He's just doing eyebrow acting the entire movie. But it's just like when he's throwing up the powder, I'm like, come on. This isn't for you. Chill out, man. All right. Well, how do you feel? Do you feel we did it? I think so,, come on. This isn't for you. Chill out, man. All right. Well, how do you feel? Do you feel we did it? I think so, man.

Yeah. It was great seeing you. It's a great talking to you. Remind me, I'm going to give you a mug. I don't get to hand out the mugs anymore. Okay. So you get to have one of the Brian Jones special hand-thrown mugs for the guests. Man, that's a true joy.

Yeah, it's a tradition. But hey, by the way, listeners, buy that book at samtalent.com. Oh, yeah. that's a true joy. Yeah, it's a tradition. But hey, by the way, listeners, buy that book at samtalent.com. Oh yeah, it's a great book. Like, you did a great job. And you're a real writer. And I was excited to give it to my friend Sam Lipsight, who I respect a great deal.

Yeah. Because he's a lofty guy. He's one of those guys. You've got some of the same talent, same heroes. He's a big, who's the guy you mentioned? Dennis Johnson.

Dennis Johnson, Barry Hanna. Oh, Barry Hanna. Stanley Elkin. Yes. Those are all his guys. I've got to hang out with this guy, man. No, he's great. You don't have any of his books?

Uh-uh. Oh, I've got to give you one of his books. That's the thing about books, man, is there's so many. But he's a guy, like, he's got tight tone, tight voice, funny, dark comedy stuff. Hand it over. Oh, fuck, yeah. I'll dig up a book for you. All right.

But yeah, I don't have to sell it again. I'll sell it when you're gone. Thank you. Good talking to you, Sam. You too. There you go, man. It's funny that all the live ones I've done over the last year are really with comics, except for Wayne Coyne. Isn't that right?

I think it is. The book is Running the Light. You can get it at samtalent.com. That's talent with two L's. I'm going to grind out a little Christmas carol here on my new Gibson SG Captain Model. It was a gift. It was a beautiful gift. And the guitar was, and I just got it, and I've got to figure out how to wrap my brain around it. This is straight into a dirty tube amp. This is only one sound of the seemingly endless number of sounds I can get out of this motherfucker.

It's black with gold hardware. The Captain SG. Dig it. I ain't no Bonamassa. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey in the Fonda. Yeah. Cat angels everywhere, man. Cat angels everywhere, man. Cat angels. Happy holidays.

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