WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1189 - Mandy Patinkin

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

Mandy Patinkin is a renowned star of stage and screen, beloved for his roles in The Princess Bride and Homeland, admired for his mellifluous voice and impressive vocal range. But Mandy and Marc barely talk about any of that. Instead, they get deep into a discussion about life, death, love, religion, the Holocaust, depression, suicide, self-doubt, insecurity, and the meaning of this whole thing we're all going through. And believe it or not, they find some answers! It's the perfect talk for a new year as we head into the unknown. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis store and ACAS Creative.

Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fucksters? What is happening? Mandy Patinkin is here today. You know him from his movies and TV shows. The Princess Bride, Homeland, his Broadway shows like Evita and Sunday in the Park with George. His albums, his concerts.

And we talk about almost none of that. It just didn't go that way. We got on the horn. We got on the video horn, and I'm like, all right, so this guy's about a decade older than me, so it's one older Jew talking to an older Jew than him. I'm like, let's see,

an aging Jewish man with a depressive slash manic personality i'm wired to have this conversation this might as well be family it was it was great yeah mandy patentkin coming up what have you been doing what have we been doing i'm trying to get organized trying to get my room organized i'm trying to get my books together. I had all the books from my old garage, which was just a packed sort of collage of life of mine, my life, a museum of me and fan art, but books. And I just start going through, I'll pull my old books out of the basement. There are moments where I'm like, what do I need all these books for? And I've been carrying a lot of them around for years, but just to sit with them occasionally now that I'm reorganizing them, I'm like, oh, yeah, this one. And even if you pick up a book you've been carrying around for 20 years and look at three paragraphs and it reinvigorates your interest, it dumps something new into your head that you can add to the stuff that's already there and and turn it around a bit or make you see it differently or blow your mind even for a fucking second or two.

or blow your mind even for a fucking second or two god bless right or whatever that's what books are for that's what hundreds of books are for had all the wilhelm reich books i don't know why i was fascinated with the guy the guy was this fucking renegade this outlier this outcast this psycho analytical prodigy of freud and and then he comes here and he just fucking turns it out, man. Pops his brain open, blows his own mind. Maybe a little bipolar, maybe a little nuts. Decided that, you know, I mean, I guess he was coming one day and he was like, it's all here, man. All the power is emitting from my balls. All the power is emitting from the vulva, from the clitoris.

All the power is coming out from the vulva from the clitoris all the power is coming out of the orgasm all this power the orgone is the quantity is the photon of the biological energy that surrounds everything in all of us and is racing through everything in all of us all the time and you can tap into it right in your pants the guy was a wizard the reikian institute in maine orgone therapy reikian therapy he got a little out there though man he got a little out there he set up a big cannon to shoot uh orgone into the sky and change the weather so that seemed a little far-fetched but he was pursuing it and they ran him down like an outlawed dog he built the orgone boxes i guess that's how i got into it first maybe burroughs was talking about the orgone box which is this box constructed of organic matter you sit in it it collects orgone energy you recharge but they busted him to the

point where they burned all his books shut him down threw him in jail in the late 50s he died in jail the fda shut him down now i'm spec a little bit, and I don't know the true history of it. But I was fascinated with the guy because basically what he was dealing with, I think, was the idea that most of our problems come from sexual repression or sexuality repressed on purpose in order to control people. So it seems that the core of his idea was to unleash the cock unleash the vag unleash the orgone energy no shame about the sex sex economy he called it and that's where love and everybody could come together eradicate the shame around orgasm and sex

and he built an entire science out of it and they burned his fucking books then later in the 60s people resurrected him it was like this is the time for this for the orgone nonetheless fascinating character now here's where this story goes so i just i'm poking around in the book and i know i i think i i don't know the history of him i don't know what you know transgressions he's committed i know he's thought of as a lunatic but there is stuff here like i just opened this book apparently he wrote a couple of books about psychology that were very you know that still hold character analysis and the mass psychology of fascism but this one's called ether god and devil and the set it's two books and cosmic

superimposition and i turn this to page 16 i'm just browsing i'm browsing and i find we observe that i'm quoting reich here we observe that human thought systems show tolerance as long as they adhere to reality the more the thought process is removed from reality, the more intolerance and cruelty are needed to guarantee its continued existence. Holy shit, was that the opening of a news show? Is that, you know, should that be on the front page of what we're living through right now? I wonder. Feels like it should to me then i found another quote from reich fascism is the frenzy of sexual cripples fascism is the frenzy of sexual cripples the army of unfuckable hate nerds among others sexually crippled does not mean that you don't come sexually crippled can mean that you're

paralyzed by porn sexually crippled is broad what does it mean what does that repression mean what does that shame mean what does that self-hate mean what are you looking for love are you looking for love are you afraid to surrender are you unable to open your heart? Are you broken? Are you broken by your creators? Fascism is the frenzy of sexual cripples. So this takes me to another place. It takes me to E.L. Doctorow, the writer. Here's the deal. I'm going through my books. I have this book called Wilhelm Reich in the USA. And it's about the trial of Wilhelm Reich. And oddly,

it's got a diagram for how to build an orgone box in the back. That was the pretext they nailed them on. Interstate commerce, selling the boxes. Hey, man, it might have been a hustle, but a hustle's a hustle. You're going to judge a guy for hustling orgone boxes? Well, then I've got an orgone box I want to sell you. But I have this book. Now, the reason this is trippy, they tried to shut a genius down. They shut a genius down. They put a massive mind, a provocative and interesting possessed thinker that threatened the established order with his thinking,

thinker that threatened the established order with his thinking which could have spread and fed the fire of socialism free love liberation it was a threat to capitalism

aside from hocking the orgone boxes but they put him in jail. He died in jail. Not saying he was a saint. Don't know a lot about him. This is just a story I'm obsessed with. And I've given you some of the tidbits.

But I have this book, Wilhelm Reich and the USA, which belonged to E.L. Doctorow, the writer of Ragtime and many other books. People love E.L. Doctorow. How did that happen, Maren? Well, it's got E.L. Doctorow. How did that happen, Maren? Well, it's got E.L. Doctorow's notes in it and new doodles, not really doodles and things he marked

as important. Maybe E.L. Doctorow was thinking about writing a novel that involved Reich or he wrote historical novels, maybe a character like Reich. But wait, Mark, why do you have E.L. Doctorow's book? The first deal I had in show business, I believe, was at NBC. And when you get a deal, you meet a bunch of writers and they assign you a writer or you choose a writer who they have under contract to create a sitcom with. Now, the pitch was I was this aggravated, neurotic chef who was working in a basically a corporate kitchen. But I had a vision, man. in a basically a corporate kitchen but i had a vision man so it was basically me instead of a comic i'm a chef and the guy i was writing with who i was told the selling point was he was on single guy this guy was on single guy richard doctorow the son yes of el doctorow fine one day we met new york at his father's apartment and his father was teaching, rest in peace, was teaching at NYU. And we met at an apartment in the Washington Muse, which is this beautiful gated community from the 1800s, right in the middle of fucking downtown Manhattan.

And I saw this book. And at the time I was sort of getting into trying to understand Reich. And I said, can I borrow this book? And I did. I took it right off of E.L. Doctro's shelf and it never got back to him. Not only that, the pilot went nowhere. I don't think Richard Doctro liked me at all. I didn't get the sense. I was just this coked up, sweaty, neurotic Jew with this idea. And I never shut up. We wrote a script. It went nowhere. And then I did not ever see him again. And then as I was sitting there the other day in a mountain of fucking books, reading his father's property, I said, what happened to that guy? And I tried to find him

and it just like his show business career goes away by in the late nineties, no sign, nothing. Do a little deeper Google search, looking at pictures, trying to find him. Then it turns up, Now I'm afraid. I don't want to. Maybe he's hiding. But I found him in an article.

As the curator of an exhibit. At the Sag Harbor Whaling Museum. Yeah. Now I don't. Like I literally haven't even thought about this guy in decades. And I track him down. And that's where he's at and now like look man I respect anybody who makes a decision to get the fuck out of show business all right get out get out and and find another life for yourself you know but wow he's at the whaling museum and i found this book in his father's library about the fda and the u.s government harpooning a big thinker a whale of a fucking thinker

and taking him down locking him up letting him die in jail willem reich wailing that horrible age-old business of killing the big cosmic monsters the beautiful cosmic monsters the whales the geniuses of the ocean reich the genius of the orgasm i don't know man sometimes life is like a novel do you know what i mean sometimes if you just connect the dots the stories go beyond they go beyond now this was one of those talks me and mandy patenkin where he had nothing to really promote uh it was just like maybe he did originally back when we were going to do it originally. It just never happened. I don't know what happened, but we just wound up talking about whatever.

Just kind of did it. And it turned into a pretty deep talk about life and what it all means. And I think basically it's a good way to start the new year as we head into the unknown. This is me talking to Mandy Patenka. Mozzarella balls and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age.

Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly

regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. How's it going? How's it going? How's it going? Well, as can be expected. You know, the day is good so far. The dog did her business, and my wife is not totally furious with me.

That's good. You took the dog out? What, do you walk every day? Oh, we walk several times because right now she's being treated for heartworm. So part of it is to give her prednisone, which makes her pee a lot. And yeah, today was her very last prednisone pill. So for eight weeks, she usually runs free. We live out in the country. Yeah. So for eight weeks, she had to be on a leash, which we thought would be quite a shocking thing. But it's actually worked out great. And she's a dear heart.

And we're very happy that in two weeks, she'll be able to be off the leash. How old is the dog? I love this dog. I can't even put it into words. We got her on March 13th, right after New York shut down. Oh, OK. And we didn't get her as a COVID dog. The kids kept saying, Dad, you need a dog you need a dog why they why did they think they were worried about me what was going on rightfully so i was uh i was alive so so they thought they thought

get a get dad a dog and um and so kath and i started talking about it when we um we'd been talking about it and the problem always was my life you know i travel and right yeah crazy what do you put the dog how do you right what do you do and uh but i wanted to take six months when i finished i finished doing a lot of work i finished like 10 years on a television series and then i finished 30 cities in a concert tour and and i said i need to stop uh-huh i was gonna stop for six months to a year and just see what life was like and i used to i used to say to everyone you know um what about all the things that i didn't consider when i was a kid. Oh, yeah. Like what? Like anything, everything else that I didn't, everything else in life. That you didn't do 60 years ago? You're going to, like,

what are you going to build? Build model planes? Exactly. Build model planes out of paper. And so, anyway, but it's very, you know, because I had a lot of friends that were retiring and I would ask them and they would all say, you know, I'm busier than I ever was. Right. You know, doing this. And I thought, oh, okay, so we'll see. But you can't see what that's like when the whole world retires with you, you know, by force. True.

But you know what, though? You know what? I realized, Mandy, when that happened, like I realized that there's nobody to resent for doing something you're not. So there is a piece to it. Did that like, you know, it's like, well, what's that guy doing? Nothing. No one's doing anything. Well, that's relaxing.

I mean, you got to that's that's one of the perks. Yeah. Yeah. Or yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Right.

Mark. And and and and you're you're never testing yourself if something tempting comes along, whatever it might be. No, there's nothing. There's nothing coming along. People might want you to use your voice for something or do one of these things. And that's it. That's all you got. This is it.

This is the highlight of my life. Exactly. You can't call your agent. I don't mean to pressure you, but don't fuck it up. No, it's already been great. But you can't call your agent and go, what the fuck is happening? I mean, I didn't really want to retire. Nothing.

You've got to learn how to enjoy your family and your dog. Well, and it's really been interesting. My son was on his way working, and he was my younger one. My older one's away with his then-fiancee, now wife, because they were going to have a wedding in October, and now it became a COVID wedding. So they actually had a beautiful wedding on a mountaintop by themselves, which I thought, you know, a lot of people all over the world had those kinds of unions. And in some ways, I thought, my God, it's so pure.

There's no commercialism involved. No, believe me. And if things don't work out, you don't disappoint 150 people who bought your presents. That's right. And you can go have parties until the cows come in when the time is right. But my younger one was worried about us. And so he wanted to get here to take younger one was worried about us. And so he wanted to get here to take care of us and not go, we shouldn't go shopping. Like, you know, like we're in his mind. And, and once he got here, he calmed down and we had a way of,

you know, living with safety and distance and no worries. And so, but the joy has been having him here. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. old is he he is 34 the younger one and so he's busy working you know his stuff you know he's a an artist so he's in you know in in the in the in the room making up whatever he's going to do when he gets the green light to be free again well you have like it seems like everybody around you it seems like you come from a artistic family well did you grow up like that where'd you grow up no no i mean when you when you said that i immediately thought of my family south side of chicago and no artistic nature there but i did hear that my grandfathers were cantors and moyles and and shokuts you know for kosher oh really so they were actually uh

you come from the jews that were engaged with the community on that i come from tailors yeah yeah yeah well we were actually i think we were shoemakers because in polish the name patinka means women's slipper so when i when i think i think therefore we probably had something to do with making shoes. So you go back to Poland? Is that where it is? Yeah. I actually found that we're also connected to Belarus recently. Me too.

Yeah. So Eastern European. Pale of settlement. Yeah, yeah. And so I found this out because I did the PBS show Finding Your Roots. Me too. Yeah. Has yours been aired?

Yeah. Yeah, mine wasn't aired yet. So, you know, Henry was incredible. And what they uncovered was just earth shaking. I don't want to share what it was at this point because I don't want to say what, you know, their show. No spoilers for the Petentkin genealogy line? Yes. No spoilers for the Petentkin genealogy line yes no spoilers for the particular i'm conditioned

to not saying anything about anything i've done it's a big finish it's a big finish you don't want to ruin that for anybody there may be although i spoke to them for about five hours yeah god knows what they'll add it down to you know you get a very nice book and in a big you get a book and a poster. I got that. But it was my son, Gideon. He said, Dad, I'd love it if you would call these guys because I think they'll do it with you. And I'd love to have it for the family to pass on to everyone. And they do amazing work.

And so I did it for him. But he called them and they're going to send us all five hours. So he'll have that for his archives and whatever he wants to do with it you know he'll have the slow build to that's right to the big how have you been mark how how have you been doing the last couple days have been difficult i don't know why it comes and goes you know, you know, like I was full of dread and anxiety before, you know, and then I had a tragic loss of a loved one. And then, you know, this whole thing. And but for some reason, there are moments where, you know, I wake up and I'm like, you know, what the fuck happens now?

Yeah. And I'm so I'm sorry for your loss. I I found out about it this morning. I listened to the whole podcast of you introducing the time you met her. Yeah, yeah. When you met Lynn. Yeah, yeah. Listened to that. And what happens now?

I mean, for whatever it's worth, if we're lucky enough to live long enough, we're all going to go through this. But I don't want to go through it with loved ones that are in the prime of their life. And right. And and you can't I don't know how to process it. And I've been through it too many times. Really? And and I have no understanding of it. Really? And I have no understanding of it. You know, of all the plays, I always tell friends my favorite line in all of literature was written by Oscar Hammerstein from all things but a musical called Carousel. And the line that I love, that I say to myself and all friends, all friends, is as long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over.

And I love it. And the other thing that I do because of that line, every day in my meditations or my prayers or walking the dog or whatever, sometimes two or three times a day before I go on stage, before I go in front of a microphone, I say this meditation. And inclusive in that is I say the names of everyone I knew who have passed on. And I do it for comfort and for the possibility that if Einstein's theory of relativity was right and energy doesn't die, no matter what energy inhabited before its new form, no matter what energy inhabited before its new form, then maybe I can talk to Moses or Jesus or Buddha or Abe Lincoln or my dad or my best friend Bob. They're all still around in some form. I hope so.

You know, I live in my imagination. Well, that's what, you know. As long as it's a moral universe that's i think that's what we all do yeah yeah so that's the world i'm comfortable in and it's a game no doubt about it but it's a game i like i think it's all a game i think religion is a great game invented by incredibly well how were you brought up uh conservative jew in chicago which i always say is a is an orthodox jew if you're from la and a reform Orthodox Jew if you're from L.A. and a Reformed Jew if you're from New York. Right. I was brought up conservative Jew in New Mexico.

I come from New Jersey Jews. So so basically, I don't know. Did you find like when I look back on it as I get older and spirituality becomes a question or, you know, I've never been that much of a seeker of divinity. But I mean, I found that as a Jew, I was taught nothing about building a relationship with God. You know, we read the books, we went to the Hebrew school, but I never was taught how to use God. I was told he was there, but there was no practical way I could do it every day. I'm not going to do Tefillin. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to daven every day. So as a conservative, you know, middle class Jew, you know, it was just the idea of God was never put into function for me. Yeah, me too.

I, you know, all religion, people would say to me, were your parents Republicans or Democrats? And they were only men's club sisterhood. The synagogue was the center of the life. I went to Hebrew school every day after three o'clock public school, and I was there till, you know, 5.30 or 6 when you go home for dinner. But I never believed in God, and I, you know, my ultra-Orthodox Holocaust survivor friends, etc., would refer to it's necessary for you to breathe the fear of God into the fetus while it's in the mother's womb. Okay. So if that's what does it and gives you the belief of God, God bless you. And I hope you have a good, wonderful, peaceful

life. That didn't happen for me, nor is it ever going to happen. But when I met my wife 42 years ago, I had a feeling that I couldn't explain. We didn't want to get engaged or she didn't want to get married. She was very 60s feminist person. And I didn't know what that meant. just uh i i i i i better not talk about that so i have a whole list of things that i should print out put on the walls then my children have said dad don't talk about that don't talk about that don't mention this don't mention this so it's uh and now there's no escape so you can't even you can't even go away for two days but we got married because I wanted to do something that was beyond my understanding of what I felt. And that definition of what's more than I understand is the word religious, religion. And I don't even know what it means. But as I got older, and I'd say probably within the past 10 years, certainly when children came along, I wanted to ask for other help to make sure they're okay. Right.

But at some point, I think within the past 10 years, my ultra-Orthodox friends would constantly refer to Hashem instead of God or G-D. Hashem. Hashem. And I started using this word when I say my prayers every day. And so even though I don't believe in a literal God, I believe in energy, like I said, from Einstein and everything lives on in that way. But I, I'm, I'm nothing but a hypocrite like

most human beings. And, and I speak to this person I've labeled Hashem that I heard the name from others. And, and I, and I literally say, help me help you in any way I can in any way imaginable. Right. I mean,

I, I've, I've reengaged with the prayer and I say, I pray to the, I pray to the big nothing. And, uh, you know,

I, I think there is something about the act of it that uh puts you into a a groove that has been carved for centuries you know that there is a frequency there that you can tap into that is grounding i started to meditate recently which i never did before and i can see how that that helps out a bit but it's interesting to me you speak of these ultra orthodox friends, how many ultra-Orthodox people are you hanging out with? Well, there was mainly Mr. Sidney, who was the landlord in my apartment in New York, and he was a survivor of the Holocaust from

Auschwitz. And we became dear friends, and I became dear friends with his family members. And I remember he told me about making matzah in Auschwitz with just some little flour that he finagled from the guards on a rock, on a hot rock that he found. And one day I was in Colorado and we were in a Passover. So we were looking for matzah to make the Seder. And everybody would say, well, what the hell? What's matzah? What's matzah to make the Seder. And everybody would say, what the hell? What's matzah? What's matzah? And it was a Jewish cracker. It was a cracker.

And we couldn't find it. And so I made Mr. Sidney's matzah with flour water on a rock outside that I put a fire on. Really? And it was really meaningful because I guess at the end of the day, the whole ball game for me is about connecting, connecting to the unknown, my friend, Mr. Sidney. When I sing, particularly the Yiddish concerts is when I formed it as a literal imaginary friend. formed it in my as as a literal imaginary friend. When I look into the darkness, when I'm on stage, you can always put whoever you want out there.

Yeah. But but I at one point I just put all the survivors of all the Holocaust, not just Jews, but Native Americans and African-Americans who were killed on ships and people who are continually suffering to this day. And and all those people, I put them all in the seats in the audience. Right. And and therefore, I'm I'm I'm very comforted and not alone. And I know it's crazy, but I don't give a shit. And it's not crazy. It's you know, it's being of service. It's connecting to, you know, this universal idea that you have. And it's also honoring the memory, like you said initially, that if there's one person out there that remembers you,

that honoring the memory of the lost is an important thing. I mean, that's the most important thing. I mean, that goes back to the carousel idea. Is that the biggest threat to civilization is the trivialization or forgetting the past. I think so. I am not a believer that, you know, let's sit down on the couch or let's go over what happened in life and it will free me and unlock me and let me be peaceful.

I don't think so. Have you tried, though? It doesn't do it. I don't think so. Have you tried, et cetera. You know, great. If that's what rocks your boat. I don't buy it. I believe that this is my life. This is your life.

It's my job to do whatever I need to do to get through the next five minutes. Yeah. I think it's a cognitive exercise. You make choices. I think so. I think so. But next five minutes. So you're on a five minute clock sometimes.

Yeah, I actually have a clock in front of me, and it's a chess clock. And I see how long you go. I see how long I go. Sometimes maybe we'll do a speed round. Five minutes. A five-minute clock on your well-being. So when did you start singing? I started singing in the choir at seven years old.

The choir? Jewish choir? Jewish choir in the synagogue. The boys' choir on Saturday morning in the synagogue, and on Friday night with the family choir at seven years old. And that's where I heard music. I heard all the old guys singing and shuffling and the cry, the voice, and that's where I heard and uh and that's where i

heard it and that's where i just became home with it but i actually all in hebrew yeah huh so you really so you so that the the original so you those primitive melodies those old so yeah and when you do that a guy just sent me um the sort of a 20-minute piece on Havana Gila, which I'm not very interested in these things that people see me on my phone. You know, watch this. It's too much. If you have enough people on your phone, it's like a full-time job. I know.

But this one, I wanted to be able to say something nice back. So I looked at it, and the first four or five minutes, the guy was talking about prayer, and there were no words to Havana Gila, it was used as a celebration, the origins of the melody, etc., and then the guy says that in Judaism, whether this is true or not, I liked it,

and he said, in Judaism, you know, the prayer, and they come from the Talmud, and this, you know, these various areas, he said, but the most holy prayer of all, the most holy sound of all is music. And I love that. I think it's true. I feel it's universal.

It's magic. I feel it connects us in ways that we can't even express. I can't help but be so affected by learning about your loss and feeling connected to all of us who are dealing with loss in such insane numbers. But none of that, whether it's historical, immediate, what's happened in our lives across the world, or personally to you, or what's happened to me. When it happens to you directly, you have to live it. And it is a mystery to me that I'm certain at this point, I know everybody deals with it. I know everybody comes to that end, whether you're awake or not, conscious or not. But I'm certain at this point, I will never understand it.

When I lost my best friend, you know, who we grew up with in February, and I went and sat with him and what horrible thing happened and kissing his head. And then and every day I'm just lost. And another dearest friend of mine who died a number of years ago named Debbie Friedman. Did you know that name? Debbie Friedman was of our generation, probably the foremost reform Jewish composer of reform music, reform Jewish liturgy. But her gift wasn't, she just took the words from liturgy. But she would say to me, I don't know where the melodies come from. I don't know where they come from. And we used to have in common because of our, just our common struggle

dealing with depression and, you know, just trying to be peaceful. We would have a conversation where we would both say to each other at times. Sorry, my wife's going out the door. We'd both say to each other at times, you know, at our best, you get these notes, as I'm sure you've gotten from people saying, thank you so much. Your comedy or your work or your music got me through this time, got me through my father, my mother, my dad. And you're very grateful for this, you know, unknown connection that, you know, what we do because we're not sitting with everybody when when our work is being received. And and we used to say to each other that she was at her best. She feels like this hose goes through her and just

comes out kind of clean and uncorrupted. And I to say to her you know debbie i understand that so well only it's the wrong kind of hose meaning it doesn't have those little holes in it yeah like that garden hose that so none of it seeps into me right and a good day it comes through me and there and there's not too much mandy going out so it's clean and available for you. But I wish it had holes so that it would get in. I understand that. I understand that. So the idea is that you give and there's a reward to that moment of giving,

but you walk away depleted instead of full. I wouldn't say totally depleted. I would just say maybe life would have better if some leaks would have occurred no i get it i i get it well the grief thing like i i don't like it's insurmountable and i and i i can identify with what you're saying because like you know just yesterday i i really tried to limit you know she got sick in the house here and and and you know and then you know they took her away and i never saw her again and i and i didn't know i didn't know no we didn't know you know so and and it's impossible

to understand how can i be talking to you right now and one of us might not be here in in an hour or whatever and the friends that we've lost that way. And I'm not, you know, all the people that have experienced this or what's going on now, it's, I just want to share, you know, because I just want to share something to just say that, you know, don't feel funny or bad or like you have a problem. Maybe because every day you open up your phone and you read about numbers that are insane about who's dying all over the world. And so you're just overwhelmed.

Or you're having dreams that people are coming to get you or it's over or whatever is going on. But I'll find myself just convulsed in sobs, weeping profusely. And thank God for Catherine, my wife, because she will literally, she just sits on the couch with me and holds me. And sometimes I can't stop crying for an hour. And I can't tell you the trigger of the tear or the emotion or what brought it on. I just get overwhelmed and she just holds me. And the other day it was so clear to me. And I just want to say this. Nothing new what I'm about to say to you. You've probably thought of said to others or heard yourself. But I'm listening to Debbie Friedman's music because I would sing with her.

And I'm exercising this music. And all of a sudden the floodgates go. And I'm gone for, you know, I can't stop. Because I missed her so. Right, right. And it took me six years to have dreams about my father until I had the first dream about my father when he died when I was 18. And I was ecstatic when that dream came.

Yeah. And every time where, you know, where I'll, you know, my father in a dream or I'll be overwhelmed that he's missed the kids or I miss Debbie from hearing her music or I take a walk with the dog and where's my buddy Bob. And I just, sometimes I cry and sometimes I'm just fucking lost in the woods. I'm ecstatic that I'm having those thoughts.

Yeah. Because I'm with them in, in a sad way, but it's better than nothing. Oh yeah. I have dreams about her and i wake up and in and in all the every time i have a dream about her it's really nothing more than that she's here that that we're here that you know we're together and i'm like oh my god it was

so you're okay and then you wake up and it's terrible but yeah but let me just let me offer this and call me crazy if you want. I don't care what we're. I see you on a Zoom screen. You see me. I'm looking at the room. I see my dog. This is all supposed to be what's called reality. Yeah, I have a dream where I see my father.

You see Lynn or or my buddy Bob visits me. And that's the dream. That's your subconscious. Fuck you is what I say. That's my brain having these thoughts, these images, these memories. Yeah. Don't tell me that they're any real or or not as as meaningful as looking at a photograph or having this conversation. That's reality. And the other is just a drink. It's not for me. Yeah, yeah. They're both real for me. Yeah, why not?

If my mind did it and whatever in my brain works, I'm good with it. Why not? Why not look at it like that? Why not? You know what? I mean, you're being visited. You're spending time. I mean, you know, this is what life is.

And that thing you're saying is true is that the horrible thing about grief and about everybody having to deal with it is it's as common as birth, as eating, as dying is as common as anything else we do as people. Shitting, eating, being born, you know, whatever it is. But, you know, the fact that we're conscious of our own mortality and the sort of weight of it and the feeling of loss and missing and then your own mortality. And like, it's like, it, it, it, it's like the, I feel like it was the final kind of, um, rite of passage to being, you know, alive and grounded and, and, and in touch with the world was this loss, you know, and I'd never experienced it before. And it's, it's devastating. Like I watched a video, I try not to do it, but I watched a video of her yesterday and like, you

know, just to sort of check in, you know,, you have these weird pieces of film with her singing or dancing or whatever. And it was just, I can't, it's just terrible. The loss is just, it's just terrible. And I'm so happy that you're able to stay in the crying because I can't stay in it very long. Yeah, yeah, no. I stopped myself. You know, you spoke a lot. I read what you had to say about this period. I read about your trying to stay with the grief. And I wanted to chat with you a moment because

I listened a long time ago when my friend Robin Williams died and you had done an interview with him and you played it. Robin and I went to school together. Yeah. And I loved Robin. Yeah. And I knew him before he was Robin Williams. Where, at Juilliard?

At Juilliard, yeah. And he was the kindest student in a place that was cutthroat. Yeah. You know, the way people can be in those places. You know, I want the part. I want the attention. I want, I want that. And he left, though, right?

He didn't finish, right? No, he didn't finish. But Robin, you would be insulated. You'd have like 20, 25 kids in your group. So you would do that. But you could go see the other groups work. Right, right. Yeah.

And Robin would come in and he was just such a cheerleader yeah and he was just so supportive and it was only unusual because no one else did that no one else did it and and then we would go uh to central park and be on the promenade near 72nd he put on his pantomime gear and he'd walk around following people like he did in San Francisco. And and then. And then we would see each other at I think was called Lenge on Columbus, that sushi restaurant, bump each other at the sushi bar every now and then. And then I was doing a concert years later and I was doing a play at Berkeley. And I went backstage because he was going to do a benefit there. And I went to say hi. Yeah., and he was terrified, just terrified. He had on his colorful shoes that he was going to put on and we were backstage. We were each going to go on and, and he was just so frightened.

And I'd run into him a couple of times, like at Letterman or whatever backstage. And I would just see how frightened he was. And, and, and one day we, we, um and one day we we had a dinner with my kids when they were little. And my son, Isaac, had memorized, you know, the good morning Vietnam monologue at the beginning that was not to come out of the mouths of a of a seven year old. But but Robin sitting at the table and Isaac unloads the entire speech on Robin. Yeah. And Robin's mouth is dropped. And it would be very quiet if you knew Robin well. Very quiet unless he was on. And when I was in Cape Town, South Africa,

and I turned the corner on my way home from work, and I heard the news on the radio, I couldn't understand how that happened. I couldn't understand how Robin, whose talent and gifts were meteoric and left me not even in the dust. I didn't even exist compared to what Robin's abilities and nature were. And yet we had somewhat of a similar life. We both performed, he in comedy, me with music. We both were actors in plays and films and television. And so we'd be on the road, and you finish your performance,

and people would leap to their feet and say thank you. And before you get off stage and the lights go back to black, you are in a – it's over. You're gone. Then you usually go back to the hotel where the booker gave you the fucking presidential suite. You're all alone. Right. And you're just trying to get get to the morning where you get back on the plane in candy from the mini bar.

That's right. And and and my teacher that I met in 2006 worked hard with me. When that news came of Robin, I couldn't understand. The work that he's done with me since 2006 and has changed my life is to stay

with our discomfort. Period. Whatever it is. When I'm in discomfort, not only do I stay with it, I make it worse generally. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah, fuel the flames. But I believe deeply that it is a global epidemic of people not knowing how to do it.

And by that, I mean this. And I use the two examples of one who was an acquaintance, Philip Seymour Hoffman, and one who was somebody that I was connected to. Yeah. And yet those are just famous people. This happens to people every day. Because I couldn't understand how in those moments when he was trying to set up a chair and an ability to take his life, all the seconds that go in between that balancing act. How do you not have that one second catch yourself that so many of us have been in so many times in our life

and for over 30 years and we get through it? How did you not get through it that one time? And so what do you want to use the word alcohol or drugs or it's an illness? none of that matters to me, really, because what I believe is the missing thing for all of our lives and people all over the world is we're not taught how to be uncomfortable, meaning a little kid who falls and scrapes their knee. Mommy and daddy say, let's kiss it and make it go away. Don't make it go away.

Kiss it's fine. Don't tell him it has to go away. So we spend our lives trying to fix everything. We fix it with a literal fix. We fix it with food. We fuck it away. We quit it away.

We run it away. We nation states kill it away. And if Philip Seymour Hoffman, these and Robin Williams, two of our greatest contributions to arts, humanity, to this life that we know, if they'd been, you can't have that kind of mind and not be aware, but even if you're overwhelmingly successful, it's can be just as uncomfortable. And so you've got to numb it. successful, it can be just as uncomfortable. And so you've got to numb it. Yeah, right. I mean, I get that. But like the weird, I think like, look, man, I mean, you know, I am fortunate in that I don't believe that I am, you know, clinically depressed. I suffer from profound

dread and anxiety. So, you know, so when I have suicidal thoughts, it's really not because things are so miserable. It's just, it's just, I need, I need a break. So I'm able to, to move through that generally. It's anxiety based. So, but I think these people who are overly, you know, in tuned and overly sensitive and can't sort of find their way out from under it. I mean, well, with Philip, it was a horrible addiction. But with Robin, you know, it was a choice, from what I understand, around not wanting to live with a crippling disease. But still, the choice that you're talking about is a profound one. And it sounds like you have talked yourself out of this before.

Yeah, I mean, I've been dark. I've been, I've, I'm certainly one person who said, you know, I don't, I don't want to go through this, you know, and the thing you don't want to go through is, is, is feeling pain. You want peace. Anybody who does anything, all they want is peace of mind, peace. They just want peace and who doesn't want peace. So we've all had a version of that. peace and who doesn't want peace so we've all had a version of that and um and i just say to myself and and to and to anybody that i talk to on occasion when when the subject comes up and forgive me for going into territory that may be inappropriate but uh you know this is how i knew you you know this this connection to robin from before and yeah and then and then a friend said you know about about what happened in your life

recently yeah and i just um i don't know i just feel it's common ground that we share as humanity and uh yeah and and it's a learning curve no yeah it's profoundly sad you know and i i try to you know my choice to sort of be public about it was you know to honor some some some some of the stuff that you're saying you know like i don't you know my comedy and my work has always been from me engaged in in the life I'm living so I I chose to sort of you know share it and you know in it in that in of itself it's it's sort of what you're talking about when about the hose, you know, is that, you know, when you when you're giving your heart or you're expressing your true feelings, there's a tremendous risk there. And the risk is not so much that you're going to be hurt. The risk is that, you know, there's no what's the return on it. And

then you have to ask, you know, well, why am I doing it? Am I looking for that? Am I doing it to to to experience people going like, oh, we love I doing it? Am I looking for that? Am I doing it to experience people going like, oh, we love you, we love you, but even that's not enough generally. So what is it really? I mean, what have you come up with? I mean, if you're not, I'm not one of those people that needs the love of an audience. That was never why I got into it. But I mean, when you say that the hose doesn't work inside, I mean, what have your conclusions around that, around your impetus to do this stuff? It's not. The adulation is its own drug that is as poisonous as drugs that kill you. It's a bottomless pit. If you go ego surfing, you'll never get enough, and you'll only find

things that hurt you because you went looking, and you'll find things hurt you. So what I've come to think is why I do what I do and have done what I've done is for the structure of it, for what we've really just experienced in these past nine months, a life without distraction. And the test of that existence without a distraction is pretty profound to relationships, to our own selves. And I think I'm not so in love with singing or acting or what it takes. I love the craft of the research, of the structure, of the taking the walks and coming up with possibilities that I'm looking for connective tissue that I can connect to and and and and how it just wastes my time in in a way that John Lewis would say is good waste, good trouble, you know, and and uses up my energy and makes me feel like I've lived the day. And when when I've now been through nine months without it, I've come full circle to those

nine months ago and go, I don't need a break. I don't want to retire. I want to find a way to be in a room with my friends and make what new music we're going to do. How do we rebirth community getting together in the theater where people are? It's the last thing on the list of going to an environment, you know, where you can sit in a room with other people and experience. And so how can I be a part of, is it a halfway house? Is it other spaces? People have all kinds of ways they're trying to come up with this, but that world gave me my life. And right now it's

decimated. The article in Saturday's New York Times about, I think, I forget the young lady's name, who's the violinist, the 52% of the arts community that isn't working at all, that lost everything. She had a good career with a whole year's bookings, gone, along with millions of other people, you know, in different forms of work and living on food stamps. And, and the, and, and it's stunning that the restaurant industry have versus 52% is only 12% affected, 12 and a half percent affected, meaning they can still sustain the lifestyle that they've sort of designed, but the arts is just devastated.

People got to eat. People got to eat. And, and, and what can we do who were given uh such such gifts by you know look in in talking about this recently i've realized what what is it that i'm missing i'm missing being with my piano player and making the music but that's not what i'm missing i'm missing just i just need one person in the room no absolutely listen just one person to to laugh or remember the music to remember and and that one person makes what was a boring rehearsal into just a life no i absolutely so how do we get those one persons i just did i just did a movie i was on a movie for for 12 days

with strict protocols masks and everything but it felt so good like it was good but it was like i chose to take it i'm alone i'm sad you know i was they convinced good like it was good but it was like i chose to take it i'm alone i'm sad you know i was they convinced me that it was going to be safe enough and once i surrendered to it i was so fucking grateful mandy to be around people yeah to be doing the work just you know and you know it's the acting work is um it's relatively new to me in terms of you know figuring out how to do it and making choices and getting better at it. So I was you're right. You're absolutely right. How do we get back to that? Because it was scary. Everyone's in masks. It's not the fun kind of like collaborative community that it once was.

Everyone's terrified, but you're making the shit. But like, let me ask you something. When you were starting out, I mean, how did you balance this idea of like you know acting or singing like were you always going to end in the musical theater was it always that or was it there was there a time where you're like i'm going to make a choice yeah the singing thing's a no-brainer you didn't have to do anything you didn't have to go to juilliard to learn how to sing you just right because everybody sang in the synagogue every little kid sang every old man sang so that wasn't anything you had to work at you just you just go to show and uh and nothing to do uh but i wanted to become a classical actor and somehow that evolved into oh go to a school that teaches you to become a classical actor so so i did that but ironically julia at the famous music school in the drama

department where we were uh there was no singing not a fucking note was sung you know it's just just all all tearing people apart and putting your heart on the table and some teachers not know how to put it back in your body and zip up you know your skin again what does that mean you were there did you went you went through the whole program you didn't get but you didn't get cut and you you you learned the competition of that environment. Was it devastating? I mean, were there any positive lessons learned from that competitive nature of that place? Not the competitive nature. The competitive nature, to this day, I feel is unnecessary. I do not feel that a school where you're either on scholarship or paying as a young person, that you should taste what real life has to offer down the road and it's cutthroat and get used to it. You know, we're going to throw you out of the program where,

you know, you don't make the mark with it. Bullshit. This is a time to be safe and cared for and kindness applied. The real world comes long enough to everybody and we'll all get a taste of it. But I had the gift of Bill Hurt, William Hurt, whose name will always be Bill to me, and the work we did together and Gerald Friedman, my teacher, and Marion Seldes. And then also my two friends who were cut from the program. And one of them had, they each had a quality that I wanted in life. One at 18 years old spoke his mind to grownups and I'd never seen a person, a youthful person speak whatever he had to say without concern. And the other one had a kindness that I desperately wanted and a vulnerability that he just was so beautiful. And I left the program after two and a half years.

We had 26 kids, I think, in our class. I think there was one guy left at the end of the four-year program, and I think six or seven women. All the rest of us left in my group. On your own volition. Yeah, yeah. I left. I wanted to leave after I was there for five minutes,

and I waited because I didn't want to leave until I'd gotten whatever it was that I went for, and I didn't leave after I was there for five minutes. And I waited because I didn't want to leave until I'd gotten whatever it was that I went for. And I didn't know what that was. And then I got to be with Gerald Friedman, who was my teacher of a, we did the Duchess of Moffey and he cast Bill and myself as Bostel and Ferdinand. We sat around a table and he tried to teach us what an action was. And Bill was much smarter than me and he could nail it right away. And I would write, you know, long, long paragraphs instead of a single word. And Jerry would crumple them up. I had a mountain of paper.

And then later on in life, I would be at Sondheim's house and look on his piano, and there were postcards or scraps of paper, backs of envelopes, with just lists of words looking for rhyme and going around to just find that one word, the vocabulary, the dialogue, the script of your life that is your connective tissue to connecting, just that word connecting. And then my brother-in-law, who's a Zen Buddhist monk, has a phrase in his monastery that is part of our family's belief system, which is our actions are the ground we walk on. And so that craft of learning to see if I could figure out an action. Wait, let me see. So the one thing that you put so much stock in, your imagination, and the idea that it might all be imagination, is actually the one thing that you have to constantly negotiate with and slow down because you overthink everything.

Everything. And overcomplicate. Overcomplicate. Too much Mandy. Too much Mandy. Too much Mandy. That's your gift, Mandy, is that you have to untangle your own fucking thoughts at every turn.

Every fucking turn. And I don't work it. I mean, Richard Harris, I did a thing with Richard Harris years ago and, and I was so excited to be with him. And he said that he was no longer drinking and I'm sitting in a hotel with him for hours while he's telling me he's no longer drinking. He has a glass of wine in each hand and a cigarette. I'm sorry. It's so great that you're not drinking anymore.

And he says to in the midst of this, you know, you don't need to work so hard. And, and he was trying to give me everything he had to offer, which was just show up, you know, just maybe just shut up and show up. But like what I'm feeling and what I'm seeing, because I relate to you, is that isn't it this fundamental, I don't even want to say it's Jewish,

and I don't even want to say it's specifically insecurity, but't even want to say it's specifically insecurity but it's this idea that whatever I'm doing cannot be enough it cannot be good enough it cannot be right it is not correct someone else knows how to do it better than me who's got the answer please give it to me now that's right clearly some of the key ones

you said is not good enough so the mantra not good enough not good enough I would tell this to David Kelly when we were working together and he wrote it you know he would but i literally was talking to my image in a window once just say not good enough good enough not good enough where does that come from who did that to you that comes from my mother but i don't blame my mother anymore because she was hurt she was good good for you you know katherine says hurt people my wife has this expression hurt people hurt people hurt people good for you you know Catherine says hurt people my wife has this expression hurt people hurt people hurt people hurt people sure you know but uh doesn't mean

that doesn't mean the fucking wires were not already crossed so like I mean I do that too like my parents were whatever they were and I you know turned out to be the mess I am then you go through years of like well what did they have that was good what am I grateful for what did they give me what are the gifts know, set aside the horrible things and then forgive them. Yeah, I forgive them, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to fucking get my brain back.

Yeah, but I believe, Mark, that the mess of our lives is the glory of our existence because it creates the battlefield of our work, of our canvas that we've spent our life trying to humorize connect to make make alive turn the darkness into light turn darkness into light that's yeah we're the the alchemists of depression the jewish you take that away take the troubles away and who the fuck

am i in some way i wouldn't trade i want in one minute i'll say all i want is peace of mind the other minute i say don't take away my troubles. Yeah, but, but, but, but Mandy, I mean, how old are you? They're not going away. There's no taking away. What are you fucking? I mean, it's like, it's a dream. What do you, I mean, it's like.

I'm 187 and, and you're absolutely, you're absolutely right. We have these conversations with ourselves. I have good skin, but I am 187. You look great for 187. Thank you. Thank you. But, but nobody, but I am 187. You look great for 187. Thank you. But, I mean, this is this game we play. I want to keep my problems. I want to temper them.

I want to taper them. I want to keep, you know, I'm going to hold on to some character defects in the language of recovery. So, like, but the truth is that they're not negotiable. How the fuck are they going to go away? You got a brother-in-law who's a monk. I mean, what are his struggles? Yeah, he's got plenty of struggles. He went in there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is comforting when I'm in the darkest place to hear a voice. And if I can't hear my own memory of that voice, I'll call my doctor up and he'll talk to me for 30 seconds. And he'll remind me that it's because of this that you are able to do what you do. It's because how hard you work. And the other reason I work so hard in just the structure of it is I'm so terrified of going on stage or in front of a camera, in front of a microphone and fucking up. So if I bust my fucking ass or even if I have the balls to do it, Richard Harris says, which is just don't do anything. Just shut the fuck up and show up.

Even no matter what I do, if I do whatever I've learned in my life and I've done my best to do it and then I fuck up. It's not my fault. Whose fault is it? Not mine. Not mine. Because I worked my ass off. I did everything I know. I did it well i did it poorly and then i fucked up but i didn't take it for granted right but but this is interesting to me

that richard harrising because like having just come off a shoot and and trying to figure out ever after talking to people like you and many other actors, you know, about how they approach things. It seems that at some point that once the work is done, Mandy, that, you know, you of all people seem to have a, you have to have some belief in your basic talent, correct? No, I don't. I don't. I'm probably the most insecure person I know. I like playing people that aren't on TV, but I'm probably the most insecure person I know. And I'm comfortable with that at this point in my life. I consider it now one of the gifts that have given me my life. But don't you drive people crazy?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. me my life but don't you drive people crazy oh absolutely absolutely i and that's why i i won't call you and say i just want to be your friend mark after this interview you can't but but but yes i drive people crazy i drive my children crazy i drive my wife crazy one of the tricks that covet is to get the fuck away from each other every every now and then any way we can because has it affected your work like with uh in in a collaborative environment at times yes yeah sometimes to a wonderful degree and sometimes to a very um negative degree degree yeah absolutely because you're so hard on yourself and in in in the midst of that tornado of self-doubt and uh insecurity you you know it's hard to wrangle

that stuff right so you got it you probably alienate uh some people at times well i i remember something that i remember because it's a it's a way of being kind to myself that james lpine who wrote sunday in the park with george and directed and a good friend, said to my wife years ago about when I'd be thought of as difficult. He said, let me tell you something about Mandy. He's only difficult to himself. Right. Yes, other people experience it in different ways, but he's only hard on himself as opposed to other people that are doing it to take advantage of other people. He's just doing it to try to make the work great. And I and I always hear that echo in my head to know that I'm not I'm not doing it to make you look bad

or to fuck you over or to hurt someone else. I'm just trying to make the scene live. Right. I understand that. But my but the point I'm making from my own experience is that, you know, that guy knows you. That guy took the time, whether he wanted to or not, to understand how you work. So but if you enter a situation where that that is in a given, then a lot of people are going to take it personally and they're going to get hurt. And then so then you got to go through the whole apology process. personally and they're going to get hurt and they're going to and then so then you got to go through the whole apology process and or they should fire me they should fire me and or i shouldn't be with them if they're not going to have any kind of sensitivity to who i am i can't change who i am i know but at what point does it become selfish and maybe a little abusive probably at any point that it affects anyone else that isn't positive okay it points i'm not i'm not

i'm not uh absolving myself right you know or or forgiving myself for it that's another great thing teacher said to me i said i i just can't forgive myself he said good i used to think somebody said what's the meaning of judaism i would say well rahmanis compassion and forgiving yourself i've given up on forgiving myself because he said to me one day and i love this i mean you know you buy the teaching you want to buy that feels good the taste and he said who are you a deity who are you to forgive yourself aren't you a human being don't human beings make mistakes isn't it nice when you find the guy that validates the worst parts of your character? Absolutely, and I pay him handsomely. I don't want to stop that.

Oh, here's your... Yeah, finally I found the guy that justifies the worst fucking thing I do to myself. He encourages it. Yeah, I know. It just doesn't get a little exhausting. But it is exhausting. But I'm exhausting.

I exhaust myself. I exhaust others. I feel like we've been talking for nine hours. It's only been an hour. But, you know, I need a guy, since that's such a part of my nature, to exhaust myself privately, to exhaust myself publicly. I need someone to say that's okay.

Well, you know, I get that, too. But I got a friend that said something to me that took me years to understand. When I call him up, a dear friend of mine who I can be honest with and talk about, you know, problems. I'm a recovery guy, so I got, you know, problems. I'm a recovery guy, so I got, you know, sobriety, but so that he's one of those guys. And he, when I tell him about all these, you know, my, these horrible things that I'm going through in my mind, he would ask me like, well, what are you getting out of that? Is it, is that, what are you getting out of that?

And that's a great question. What am I getting out of that? Like, like I'm doing it over and over again and I'm complaining about it. So I must be getting something out of it. like i'm doing it over and over again and i'm complaining about it so i must be getting something out of it what is that and it's just the that that's a provocative question it's like yeah what am i getting out of that and do i want that anymore these are choices right yeah but if you're if you happen to be a painter or or a composer or an actor or a writer, and you choose one day to play someone who is incredibly lighthearted, seems to laugh away the world, seems to brush off every shoulder every second, no matter what it is. And why are you that way?

Because you are loaded with agony. And you have found that the way to counteract it is to be this other way. And what becomes the connective universal tissue to the listener is I have that agony. I know that. But to me, the trick and what I admire and the guy I want to have dinner with is the one who manages it by finding ways to have fun in spite of their nature. Right. Well, what about love? What about it? Well, I mean, what about vulnerability? What about I mean, I understand agony. I understand the relief of agony. I understand, you know, you know, getting the laughs and and and and and turning darkness into light. I understand that. But there is a sort of power to being open-hearted without fear.

Yes. May you live long enough, in spite of the love you've just lost, to find a friend, another human being on earth, to just do nothing with, to say nothing with, to just feel comfort from, to not be able to help them in their pain, but to know that they just want to sit and be lost with you on the couch, on the chair, car and and that to me is the definition of love just comfort and company and and and being lost together yeah and um you know it is that this fucking thing about sex that we got when we were little and all the stuff about sex and all the

energy lost over sex, you know, in energy in terms of what you could have done literally just with that hour, you know, trying to calm yourself down, self-medicate. I mean, oh my God, you know, it's just insane. The whole world over, over this kind of stuff, genius people, you know it's just insane the whole world over over this kind of stuff genius people you know who could who could solve the world's problems politically scientifically are ostracized because they they they they needed to calm themselves down by masturbating yeah who doesn't masturbate yeah no i as i i'm i'm a. I was a daily masturbator for years. I've just taken a break because I'm getting older. I try to cut it down to twice a week.

But, you know, it's important. I've always felt that that's, you know, it's built in. It's relieving. And it's a gift. It's one of the many gifts that Hashem has given us. Yes, Hashem's gift. And it is great at times. But is it...

And sad at times as well. Is it the defining factor? Is it the definition of love? No. No, it's onanism. A friend of mine said to me, he said, if you masturbate a lot, like daily, your primary sexual partner is you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you read this book, Sapiens? Which one? Sapiens. No. So it's this, like, you know, 500, 800-page book. I don't know what it is. Now I know I'll never read it.

By a great historian who does, you know, goes billions of years. Did you read it? Yes. Into the formation of mankind. And then I'm reading this thing because I really want to see what's happening. And he takes it into the present. He's going all through the timetable of existence and how sapiens came to be what they are and what they've done. And then the last 10 chapters virtually.

And this guy is an avout atheist, by the way. chapters virtually, and this guy is an avowed atheist, by the way, but the last 10 chapters really are saying, in my humble opinion, and I'm not the wisest, greatest reader in the world, but is that you cannot find happiness. And I hated that book from those last 10 chapters. And I really read that book and loved a lot of it. But I hated that you make that kind of effort and garner your audience and you have a successful book but that's what you're offering us at the end that all of us who are looking for peace and happiness you're gonna say in in your you know huge mind that that's a wasted goal fuck you see and then he proves his point see what he did to. See what he did to you?

Look what he did to you. He's correct. No, I mean, I talked to somebody recently who said that most animals, you know, that we're designed to think negatively out of fear and protection. So, like, that's one of the things we've had to reconfigure as conscious, you know, sentient animals, you know.

Yeah. Because you had to read that was it. But that's what we're talking about here. That's the challenge. That's what we've been talking about the whole time. Yeah. I mean, fear. I'm so exhausted from being terrified.

And, you know, people people will say to me, you know, I have the public speaker. I got to make a speech. What do I do? Can you help me? And I say to them, you know, shake. Shake. Let your legs shake shake let your legs shake let your arms shake let your lips shake sweat have you know let tears roll down your eyes have you ever walked away from someone in that condition in front of your eyes you know people will lean into you and those that don't just be great just hope they walk away quicker well i mean, if you're advising a guy who's going to give some sort of corporate presentation,

just go out there and cry. I mean, you're like... Absolutely. First of all, you've got them in the palm of your hand. Secondly, they're going to want to pay you to shut the fuck up and get to the next guy. Yeah, help this guy. This guy needs help. Should have got it together.

Yeah, give him a billion dollars and let him build it so you did the like the show like the homeland show you did for a long time right approximately 10 years from hello to to the final goodbye but it was eight seasons but we enjoyed it you enjoyed really i just loved it i truly loved it on on. On so many levels, the people involved first and foremost, the character of the material, the relationships with the intelligence community that we formed in terms of our research systems, and the relationships that I made with those people long-term in many cases, the connective nature of my being to a global understanding of systems broken and needing attention paid. So it informs you politically to some degree.

Politically, it gave me a platform unlike any other part of my career. It started my relationship with the International Rescue Committee and helping refugees be listened to and attention be paid to them. And then, you know, because of all of that, it literally, it's all the ripple from that whole thing because of the platform we made. I made the refugee thing. I never had social media. We started it for refugee crisis with the International Rescue Committee. Then my my son who always has taken out his cell phone, you know,

filming family things, you know, takes a family movie of Catherine and I, after we have a fight on our anniversary says, dad, you know, this was really kind of sweet. Can I put that on your social media? I said, I don't know how to do that. I have somebody that does that for me. He says, I can do it. And he does it and it goes well. And then he starts doing that at the time when the pandemic starts and it's bringing a smile to people. So, you know, we're just the hired idiot parents. We just answer his questions. You know, you're on the Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. We're doing nothing except answering Gideon's questions. And he's putting this stuff out there. And then, you know, George Floyd is murdered. So we then shift. It's not

appropriate to do that. So we shift into awareness for Black Lives Matter and that moment. But in the back of our minds, the minute this thing started catching, we thought if we could grow this platform, we can maybe help get out the vote, you know, in September and October. And we were a little part of that effort. And, you know, you know, from, you know, all of those things from being in a television show. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, though, that that, you know, as a, you know, progressive, thoughtful, creative Jew guy that, you know, it feels like it took you a while to get on board with social activism, huh? Oh, no, no, not at all. I'd been it was my wife brought us on board early on social activism in terms of social media we have been very active since uh really i did since i began doing solo concerts are you a fan of theodore piquel i i know him i've been with him i used my father loved him uh beautiful man

um i'm glad i got to be on a stage with him once you know you were yeah because it seems like there there there there is some connective tissue there yeah yeah yeah i'm i'm i'm certainly one of those guys of our generation you know are you asking me to sing you a yiddish song is that what no no no i'm just wondering no no no i'd love you no I'd love it. No, I'd love it. Did you have to learn Yiddish? I did. I did. I mean, I particularly know the words, every word I sing, but I learned it to a point through the lyrics that I went to Germany

on more than one occasion, but I go to a German movie and find my way around. Really? Yeah, yeah. What's your favorite Yiddish song? It's German based. My favorite Yiddish song, I think, is the one my dad sang. The only one my dad sang. He never sang much, but it was... So it goes on and it's about mama, mama, what do you want?

What do you want with my daughter? What do you want? You're not happy. Do you want a pair of shoes? No, mama, you don't understand. You never understand. Do you want a new dress? No, mama, you don't understand.

You never understand. Do you want a boyfriend? Yes, mama, you understand. You always understand. And my dad used to sing that. So when I learned all this Yiddish music, that was the one that mattered to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because of my dance.

So was there Yiddish spoken in the house? Only as a secret language and particularly when Grandma Celia came over because she never learned how to write very well or speak English. And she would always go in the basement with my father because she didn't want my sister and myself to see how long it took her to sign the checks. My grandparents used to speak it when they didn't want us to understand what they were saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's amazing. So when you do these things, is how many people are left of the generation that that is provocative? It's astounding how yiddish has grown through folks bina and uh different organizations that have brought uh you know in the language it was tried to have been decimated attempted to be decimated completely

back to life their camps their uh they just did uh my friends at folks bina did this yiddish fiddler on the roof. It was one of the most extraordinary things. You know, all of us have seen fiddler on the roof on one iteration or another. This was the definition of how it should have been seen. And it was unbelievably powerful. And Joel Gray directed it, and it had a simplicity that was almost like a high school production.

But because of the connective tissue of the sounds of a language. And I remember when we recorded it, I had many of the same musicians, African-American musicians, Asian musicians, who worked on most of my other recordings in New York, studio musicians. And the African-American and Asian musicians came up to me afterwards and said, we just want you to know we've worked on all your albums. This is the most powerful experience we've ever had. And we couldn't understand a single word. And as I started to perform it and Catholic priests and nuns and, you know, Irishmen would come back and say, thank you. I learned what meaning of this was.

I just happened to be a Jew who connected to my heritage's language. I just happened to be a Jew who connected to my heritage's language. The lesson was, whatever you come from, whatever the language is of your ancestors, take a walk in it. Take a bath in it. Let it wash over you. Don't try to understand it. Just drink it and let it wash you. And there's something about it.

And it's one of the great things that's unexplainable. Well, yeah, it's like the idea of centuries of prayer. There's like a groove there. It's not just tradition. It's not legacy. It's almost genetic. It's a language

spoken through centuries. Yes. And once you tap into it, you know, it makes you feel connected. Yeah. Connected. Yeah. I mean, that's the, to me, the word James O'Pine put it in Sunday in the park with George. So my character of George Surratt, when I was 31 or two years old, I think, or maybe I was 34, repeated this line over and over again through the play, connect, George, connect. And it became the word I realized of my existence. And it's the only

words if I have a tombstone, which I'm not dealing with because I can't deal with any of that. So I'll check out when the time comes and it's my children's problem or my wherever's left. And I don't expect to know about it. I don't want to know. I don't want to know I'm going to be put in a box. I don't want to know that they're going to cook me in an oven. I don't want to be in a mud hole. I don't want any possibilities to exist.

And so I don't want to know. But if there is a tombstone, I wanted to say he tried to connect. Well, you do. But if there is a tombstone, I wanted to say he tried to connect. Well, you do. And I think that, like, as you're saying this, that the horror for you, that the existential dread must come from those moments where you feel disconnected. Very much. both personally, if they're with my children or wife, when I can't communicate, or I over-communicate, or I'm over-emotional or over-sensitive, and I blow the moment,

or I'm on stage, and I just missed it, or did too much, or couldn't recover quick enough, or was too young to know how to recover. I was in great pain and still am to this day at times, particularly with family, because I don't get that moment back. Yet with those who love you, you do get another try. As soon as you knock on the door, they will open it. You're the one who closes it. Yeah, because you're busy beating the shit out of yourself in the room out of yourself and to have my two sons and my wife katherine um for 42 years between katherine and the boys constantly love me in spite of it all is um pretty overwhelming yeah thank god yeah yeah yeah so i uh you did fuck that up good for you

i'm a lucky guy yeah oh yeah well you knew where the the line was apparently i i think so but they would they also knew that it's gonna take dad dad's gonna go to the city dad took the dog dad you know he may come back he may not. He may not come back for a week. It always happens around my birthday and Thanksgiving, which are days apart. Always. I can't handle something about it. And I usually check out. Last year, I went to go to New Orleans because somebody said something and I got upset, packed my bag, went to LaGuardia, got on the airplane. Then something happened on the airplane. And at that moment, I felt better. And I thought, I don't need to go to New Orleans. So I said to the stewardess,

can I please get off the airplane? I need to get off the airplane. There was some sort of problem. I said, I got to get off the airplane. I made it like a little crazier. And they opened the airplane. I need to get off the airplane. There was some sort of problem. I said, I got to get off the airplane. I made it like a little crazier. Yeah. And they opened the door. They let me off. I got back in the cab. I went back to the country. I said, I'm home. So now we kind of refer to it. Is he in New Orleans? So so you find that the the the depression comes at certain times at times? Yes. But it never I can never identify the trigger. It comes out of times. At times, yes, but I can never identify the trigger. It comes out of nowhere, literally. Occasionally, I can identify the trigger. You literally have to go away for a few days?

Yeah, I just have to know that I can escape, that I have an alternative to being confined. And by confined, meaning if it's with my wife, that you have to be, to my wife, that my darling, you have to be around me. I don't want to expose me to you. I don't want my kids to have to be exposed to my darkness, and I need to know I can get away. And as long as I can, and everybody's fine. I mean, Gideon, my youngest one, he used to, he had it better than anybody, and he taught the rest of the family. So thanksgiving and um and christmas

uh the men the family members of the monks at the monastery in upstate new york where my brother-in-law is it's family night on christmas and yeah thanksgiving so one day i was in a bad way and we drive the family up there we're in the parking lot and everybody knows dad's in a in a dark spot and gideon outside and he's about I don't know maybe he's 15 16 maybe and maybe yeah and and he said if you can't get it together don't come in and I didn't and I stayed in the car for about an hour but but he was he's the clearest one he's the only one in the family that doesn't try to fix me yeah I you know i grew up with a father with depression and i i you know i i know the the the the story of it but for you no medicine oh i had 15 years of five different

medicines at a time at one point i was on stage in new york doing my one one my i think my on-time show 20 minutes into the concert uh and And and I went up because of what some lyric did, you know, to my head. And I stopped and I started the whole thing over again from the beginning. And and a friend of mine said, you can never do that again. And I thought to myself, let me take them. I'll do it again if I need to do it again. And I went home and I took that last bottle of pills I had and I put them in the toilet. And I said, because I tried to get off those pills many times over the years. And I preface

this by saying some people need medication and it's important. But for me, most of them, all the medications put that fighting part of my brain to sleep. And I needed every cellular opportunity to stay focused and alive and battle the darkness. And so I would try many times to get off it with, you know, lying to the doctor, just not taking it over the years. And like clockwork, you know, two weeks into it, I'd crash, call the doctor, have to take it again. But that night, I put it in the toilet, and I said, never again. And I'd rather not be here than feel chained to this. I can't do it anymore. And it was the moment when I was ready.

And I was done. These were prescribed medications. And the other thing that everybody probably knows is there are psychopharmacologists out there that should be put in prison yeah that that give you medications they don't know that should not be giving you them yeah well yeah i it's all speculative it turns out look i really i'll repeat the pre. Some people really need to have certain medications. Absolutely. Don't take some word to some actor on a podcast, you know, listening to what he said and think it's right for you.

What's right for you is what's right for you. Not what I say. Yeah. Did you listen to music today? Just the music I heard at the beginning of your podcast with the one. Oh, yeah. Lynn. Yeah. And and a little bit of music that was in there. That's all the music I heard today. Do you listen to music every day?

No. I don't. My kids, Gideon, if my son Gideon was here, he would tell you, he would interrupt and go, my father doesn't like listening to music. And I think partly because music is, I love doing it, and it's my work, but it's not where I relax. Where do you relax? I relax taking walks. And ironically, on my walk, I run a concert. So I'll run an hour, hour and a half worth of material of bricks and singing like, you know, just about this loud, you know, really quiet while I'm singing. And that's what I do. And occasionally I do, I'll listen to Mahler,

or I'll listen to my son's recordings, or I'll listen to Debbie Friedman, because it's just an okay time for me. But in general, there is so much noise in my head, Mark, so much noise, that I love quiet. And my wife loves more noise and more noise. And we've learned that I need quiet. And I read a book once somebody gave me called Quiet. I forget the woman wrote it. And it's about introspective people. And you'd never think when people talk to me or you see me on some fucking interview,

I sometimes watch myself talking to some person like yourself and I turn to my wife and I'll go, I don't know how anyone could tolerate me. You know, it's just, I'm desperate to get away from this fucking television. I can't watch a minute more of myself. And the book is about people that you'd never guess were introverts. So it made me realize that in many ways, even though I do what I do, that I am an introvert.

And some of the people that are described as introverts it's extraordinary book for people you know i mean i mean it used to be at harvard and stuff they used to say to you there was courses about how you had to be an extrovert to have any existence you know oh yeah well it's like it comes back to robin you know who was probably like one of the most introverted people that I ever met. Ever, yeah. Yeah. And then you put on the thing.

Yeah. It's almost like a protective magic trick. You know, like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. Okay, thank you. I'm going to go be quiet now. Yeah. But when you would experience it with Robin, it was undefinable almost. it with robin yeah it was uh undefinable almost it was so hugely different from you know one thing to the other oh when he turned it on oh yeah yeah it was like yeah

all of a sudden you're on uh couldn't understand it one second he can barely look in the eye and the next you're like holy shit holy we're in an amusement park yeah yeah yeah yeah it's great talking to you buddy you feel good i do feel good and it's wonderful talking to you and and um and and i want to leave you and whoever's listening with one i had a i had a father's group when the kids were in starting in uh preschool yeah and these four fathers and then the mothers became friends. And then we had life together all the time. Yeah. Holidays. And one of the dads passed away from melanoma. And there's a dear friend of mine named Mark Harrington.

And I loved him dearly. And he kept himself alive for the moment when Catherine and I heard that it was time. And we ran back from Colorado where we were visiting people. And we made it to his room. And he asked the nurse for a cup of morphine and he took the morphine and he struggled to get himself up in bed. And he looked at these two lunatics, my wife and myself, and he said the most challenging words of all time, have fun. And then he laid down and about a day later he was he left us but he knew that that was the job at hand and he knew it was the everest to climb at the same time and how are you doing with that

i'm doing better than i've ever done in my life and that's why i love getting older. I'm not crazy about the knees and all the things that go with the designed body parts, but I love getting older for just the time lived in the things that terrified me that I now have learned to ignore. Yes, exactly. It all goes away. Nothing's that important. And you can't get over how one minute you were ready to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, and the next minute you can't even remember why. So maybe that's your version of self-forgiveness. You're forgetting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And my wife will say, I wish I had your memory, which is zero. I remember nothing. A gift. It's a gift, Mandy. It's a gift. I remember nothing. It's a gift, Mandy. It's a gift. I think so, Mark. And I wish you fun. And I wish you to have your loved ones in your mind and heart all your days. You too. You too. And in a similar sense, Warren Zevon, I think, once said, enjoy every sandwich. I will. I will. I will.

All right, buddy. Take care. What is your favorite sandwich? That's a good question. I love a very moist brisket sandwich, Jewish-style brisket. Wow, we're pretty close. I would love cold meatloaf sliced with mustard lettuce, thick iceberg lettuce on toast.

Oh, that's nice. Like a meatloaf your mom made or something? Yeah, just meatloaf. Yeah, I like the deli meats, but not much on it, just the dark mustard. Oh yeah, it's too much for me, the dark mustard. No, no good. I'm a French's yellow mustard. Oh, yeah. That's too much for me, the dark mustard. No, no good.

I'm a French's yellow mustard. Oh, really? All right. I'm a simple man, Mark. I can live with that. I think we can live with our choices. All right. Take care of yourself, buddy.

All right. You too. All the best. All right. That was Mandy Patinkin. You can go see his stuff from Homeland to Princess Bride, the records, the plays you can't see. I don't know, maybe they're unavailable. I'm not sure.

Are they? Sunday in the Park with George. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. All right. Fascism is the frenzy of sexual cripples. Wilhelm Reich. here's some guitar Thank you. Boomer lives.

Monkey lives. La Fonda! Cat angels everywhere. Cat angels everywhere. We'll see you next time. uber eats but meatballs mozzarella balls and arancini balls yes we deliver those moose no but moose head yes because that's alcohol and we deliver that too along with your favorite restaurant food groceries and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.