WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1203 - Melissa Leo

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

Melissa Leo's acting style is a combination of gut instincts and a compulsive need to ask questions. It's a style that already earned her an Oscar and continual employment, but also keeps her from falling into the trap of business-as-usual. Melissa and Marc talk about her performances in movies like Frozen River The Fighter and the new film Body Brokers, how she played a character not unlike Mitzi Shore for the series I'm Dying Up Here, and what is the one type of part she refuses to play, even though she gets offers to play it over and over again. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gate! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What is happening? I'm Mark Mar maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it the 20th most listened to podcast in 2020 according to uh edison tracking

what does that mean what's real what isn't i'll take that number i'll take it after 12 years of this to still be in the saddle like a galloping Buddha getting mildly aggravated at many of the bumps and jostling but trying to maintain an even keel is that me

did I just describe some alien I don't know man today on Today on the show, I talked to Melissa Leo, the greatest actress in the world. One of them for sure. I don't like to give anyone the big titles because there's always many, but Melissa Leo is one of them. She won an Oscar, remember, for The Fighter, which is a movie I'll watch at least three or four times a year and when it's on a plane i'll watch it there too she did the movie frozen river which i just watched and that got her an oscar nomination i did not see it or know about it when it came out and it's a beautiful fucking movie and an amazing performance uh she did tv shows like homicide and

treme and she's in this new movie, Body Brokers. All right. Body Brokers, which is great. Directed by and written by this guy, John Swab. And we're doing something we actually don't usually do this week. We're having two people on from the same movie. Melissa Today and Michael K. Williams on Thursday, because this is an independent movie that definitely deserves attention because it's it's a dark story about a real thing and also Michael K. Williams come on man it's fucking Omar from The Wire what are you kidding me what are you kidding me there's a million reasons to have these people on but this movie Body Brokers it's an interesting little zone that I don't think a lot of people know about, the racket of rehab and just how deep and dark that racket can get.

I've got a buddy who works in the rehab industry, and he had to quit a couple of rehabs because of the corruption on how they, once it became part of the broader insurance umbrella, I think it was a requirement maybe during Obamacare to provide money for rehabs. There were dubious, devious, evil fucking people that just started running money through sick people. They started running money through junkies. They started paying junkies to relapse. They started providing junkies to relapse they started you know you know providing junkies with with medical uh procedures they didn't need they started you know hijacking tests like piss tests and you know taking that money overcharging just running billions of dollars through these very sick individuals and who who are some of them hopeless that's the fucked up thing about addiction and about knowing about it and understanding it

if you've got the bug it's one thing but really knowing that most people don't recover from it and a good percentage of people die from it and a lot of people just live with it that you know the percentage rate of people that actually get sober and stay sober is fucking painfully low and the education of people in this country around addiction and alcoholism is still fairly unenlightened but this movie is a window into the dark racket of exploitation and hustling insurance money through drug addicts and rehabs and it's a it's fucking it's it's a jar like i'm familiar with the world having been in it's a fucking, it's a jar, like I'm familiar with the world, having been in it as a patient and as somebody who is sober. So the language of the movie was sort of close to home for me in some ways.

But the movie is dark as fuck and satisfying. And this guy, this guy Swab, who directed Body Brokers, he doesn't pull any punches, man. He lets that ending sit there. There's a lot of fucking movies with third act problems right now. That's the biggest thing we've got to deal with. A lot of people are without electricity. There's winter storm warnings everywhere. People are freezing to death in their chairs at home.

And people are broke. death in their chairs at home and uh people are broke the pandemic rages on we don't know how we're going to bounce back but let's just talk about the third act of some of these current motion pictures that are available now what happened what what a fucking tragedy the third act of some of these movies are i didn't know if i would it's just like you get through you you lock into a movie you get about two-thirds of the way in and then they drop something you're like come on how far do you want me to fucking suspend my disbelief to enjoy this movie now i know this is bullshit you know and you're not i can't even get back to

where i was and i just gotta hope that the ending is satisfying enough for me to walk away thinking I didn't just waste half my life or a quarter of my life or maybe the last hour of my life watching this fucking thing, this shiny piece of garbage. this movie the body brokers nomadland which is a beautiful sort of uh meditation on grief and the great american disappointment um i liked the father a lot with anthony hopkins which was a unique twist in that uh you don't realize um initially whose point of view the film is being shot from and when you do it's sort of jarring but then you have to piece it together in sort of a wonderful way it's a difficult movie but it's beautifully handled and i liked um judas and the black messiah they uh do a great job and it's a story that a lot of us don't know i don't know how true they were to the story or if it if it's as historically accurate uh as it plays out to be

but um but it's a it's it's an education and it's a painful one and it's a fucking beautifully shot movie to be honest with you what else of course the adam curtis six-part mind fuck that is i can't get you out of my head and also i wanted to wanted to kind of spread a little love to my friend, Cliff Nesteroff, who has been on this show a couple of times. He wrote the book, The Comedians. I'm a big fan of his writing. Nobody writes about comedy like Cliff Nesteroff. And he has a new book out. It's called We Had a Little Real Estate Problem, The Unheralded Story of Native Americans in Comedy.

It's out now. You can get it wherever you get books. I have not read it. I'm looking forward to reading it. I've just been a little backed up on the books, man. But apparently Steve Martin likes it. Judd likes it. I thought Cliff's other book, Comedians,

and all the stuff he used to write for the WFMU blog on comedy is stellar, the best stuff, the darkest stuff, the wfmu blog on comedy is stellar the best stuff the darkest stuff the truest stuff he gets in there he looks into the dark portals of show business and uh pulls out the gems i'm sorry that i didn't get to interview one of the original native american stand-ups charlie hill uh before he passed away it's a missed opportunity i used to see him at the store he was a good guy. But this book, Cliff's new book, We Had a Little Real Estate Problem, The Unheralded Story of Native Americans in Comedy, is out now. And I guarantee you it'll be something you know nothing about,

and you will come away from it educated and engaged. And I'm saying that without reading it. Also, this movie Body Broker is something to see. I also want to say about Melissa Leo, in the interview, she clearly harbors bad feelings toward the people who didn't believe in her early on. And this is an interesting thing about people.

Why say people? Why be general? This is an interesting thing about me. Why say people? Why be general? This is an interesting thing about me and maybe you. Because this far along, you know, my success is fine. I enjoy my success. I'm happy I'm successful. I'm, you know, not a household name. I'm not a huge star, but I earn a nice living.

I have health coverage. I like my house. I have a certain amount of financial security because I've worked hard for a long time, but it didn't look like it was going to pan out. And there are certainly people from my life, you know, without mentioning names who I, you know, even if it's little slights from back in the day, you remember them. from back in the day, you remember them. This isn't like a troll or it's not like a major trauma, but it was just like, you know,

when you're either desperate or coming up or really trying your hardest to be a success at something and people either dismiss you or stand in your way, you know, just because they can or they don't see it. I don't see it. It sticks with you. And it's like not an active grudge for me. But if you bring it up, it's sort of like bringing up a divorce to anybody, to some dude.

Hey, you remember when you were divorced don't even fucking why are you bringing that up like some of it's very close to the surface but they're just people were sort of like i don't want to talk to that guy because it happened recently you know there there was a somebody that was reaching out you know to be on this show and you know and at the beginning of of what we were doing here this guy slighted us, you know, and it was it was it was pretty quick, but it was loaded because of the tone and the dismissive nature of it. And and it stuck. And there's no fucking way that we're going to have that person on this show. Why?

Because, you know, why can't why can't we just be bigger? Isn't that something that you talk about? I guess I've talked about a lot of that stuff with people, but there's certain ones, there's certain tones, there's certain people, there's a certain way in which people trigger you or hurt you when you're really trying, and that just don't fucking go away.

I don't care if you're Jesus. They just don't fucking go away. Again, it's if you're Jesus. They just don't fucking go away. Again, it's not active. My brain's not on fire with it. I don't need to have to pray to have it removed or meditated away. It's not an active thought. But once it's introduced into the soup,

into the brain, into the juice, into the fucking gray matter, once that name or that moment is dropped in the slot you just won a fucking fuck fuck that guy fuck that guy that's what you win you drop that coin in the slot melissa leo i'm going to talk to her now the new movie is the body brokers and i highly recommend it this is me talking to the amazing actress, Melissa. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Leo. Where are you i'm in new orleans really how's it down there um well it's hard to know truly because i'm down here working so i'm primarily keeping myself very safe yeah and it's a very interesting project wonderful role for me so oh yeah what is it

can't tell i don't know i nobody told me i can tell or not tell um it's just a pilot for fox so whether or not everybody will get to see it will time will tell but it's a very interesting character who um whose brother explains that she's so weird because she's twice exceptional, which is a newer kind of phrase for learning differences. And she's a little bit of a social imbecile and a genius. Oh, great. Who is interested in forensic genealogy. And to find out more about that, you'll have to watch the show.

Oh, I'm in. So when you embark on a role like that, what do you study? I mean, what do you do? Oh, it's fascinating because actually this character I've been sitting on for 10 months, we were going to shoot the pilot in March and everybody knows what happened in the United States in March. And we all got sent home and, you know, with our fingers and toes crossed that we would be able to come back. Yeah. Two and a half months ago, we got the call. Indeed, we're going to come back and try and shoot it now. So I've never sort of hibernated with a character for so long. I really trust my writer, showrunner, the wonderful Chris Levinson. I mostly allow the research to be done by them and not fill it up with other ideas of my own. They've offered I meet a couple of women that the character's loosely based on i

have said no thank you right i'm curious to meet them but i don't want them or i to think i'm portraying them right so uh i just mostly go by the writer and uh ask the questions as i need to to have an idea of what i'm saying and then but you go through, like when you like to make choices as an actor, somebody who has this in the real world or in the world of people, an awkwardness, but in a world of the mind, you know, a genius, you know, how do you sort of, do you just manufacture that or just go by the script?

It's a little bit of all of those things. And playing Lou Kelly these last couple of weeks after waiting so long to be her has been fascinating. And I am informed by my writer and her research. I'm informed by the information she has on the subject, the information I've gathered along the way, my own learning differences that probably come into play. Right. And it's an incredibly instinctual role in the end. I did, you know, there's a sweet little show

about love on the spectrum that Netflix has. I watched that. And what I really got from that was that there's all kinds of ways this shows up in people. Yes. And that we could both invent things and also be quite factual about the representations of, say, a panic attack. I don't know that I've ever had a panic attack in my life. I don't know that I've ever witnessed a panic attack. Maybe I'm in constant panic attack for all I know. But yeah, I ask questions and I see if they smile when we finish the take. And if they're smiling, I figure I did good.

Yeah, exactly. You can get to panic, though. I mean, panic's never that far away, is it? No, I don't think for many of us panic is so far away. And I don't think for many of us learning differences are so far away. That's right. That's right. So it's just sort of an amplification or a reduction of what's already inside of you. Yeah.

And the smarty pants side, well, that's all written for me. But that must be fun. It's very fun to play somebody with that kind of intellect because my intellect resides much lower in my body, somewhere around my gut. And to have that kind of cerebral intellect, it's so much fun to play. Well, that's interesting, a gut intellect,

because, I mean, it feels right to me, because I've watched you for years. I mean, I've obviously not seen all of your movies. Have you seen all of your movies? You've made a lot of movies. I've done a lot of movies and television. I've seen most of it, because I am not an egomaniac,

as many people consider actors to be. Most of us are kind of the opposite of that. Yeah. But I watch it to improve. Right. What works, what doesn't work. Like a game movie, game films. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. I wish I had a coach. That'd be fun. You never had a coach? You could get a coach. Yeah, I could get a coach. That'd be fun. You never had a coach? You could get a coach. Yeah, I could get a coach. Actually, as soon as I said it, I realized I've never really understood that idea of an acting coach. I don't really know what a coach would do. Again, I'm using so much my gut on things. be it like with the case with John Schwab and body brokers, he's just, he knows his film inside out. What more information could I bring to it that would, you know,

sometimes that can detract from the film too much outside information. I love that movie. I really, I like it. I'm a sober guy. So like, you know, some of the landscape was familiar to me and I know people that work in that industry. So what was what was it sort of a devastating dark movie about a real thing and about the insurance scams around treatment centers. And at first I didn't love the narrator because I was like, is this going to be glib? You know, but there had to be a way to deliver the information to set up the thing. And then once you got into it, what was interesting about your character, the therapist,

is that once it's established what's going on, everybody in that industry becomes suspect. So I'm sitting there looking at you thinking, is she in on it? But ultimately that doesn't really matter because it doesn't seem like you are. But I thought the performance was great and I thought the whole movie was kind of ballsy.

It's a very, John Swab is nothing if not a ballsy director and a smart ballsy director. And he's an Oklahoma guy. He seems like a young guy. He is a younger guy i mean to somebody like me almost everybody's younger but um no he's a younger fellow um he's got a lot ahead of him and here's the funniest story about john suave and i he approached me for the film

i believe he calls run with the hunted which was the previous film to Body Brokers. And he had a role that I felt in many ways I'd played too often. Which role is that? In other ways, the character's name is Birdie. She was the character who, in the end, the weight of all this wrongdoing, and you can see in John's films, who's's wrong who's right is a slippery slope of complicated realities yeah it's not black and white and good and bad um but in the final analysis there was actually a line she needed to utter towards the end of the film why do i do the terrible bad things i do in birdie's case prostituting young women I that's like a scary thought to me a woman prostituting others without the story of how she got there being told

some other interesting story being told and in the end just said because I'm a bad bitch that's no reason for behavior yeah and i was very clear with john he worked very hard to alter the script in some way and finally i said john you're ruining your movie yeah you've got a good movie go make that movie and maybe one day you'll come to me with something else and by god he did he did it it. Not just once, but twice. What was the other one? This summer, I've shot his next film that will be coming out after a bit called Ida Red. And I play for him in that Ida Red.

And I just adore John. I adore the person that he is. I adore the life's path he has traveled. His honest, open nature and sharing that in his work and his work trying to better the world in some kind of way by examining things that aren't often examined. Yeah, I think that like I called a buddy of mine who works in the treatment world and he said that he had to quit two jobs because of the corruption and just all levels of exploitation of the drug addict, the victims. But I was really happy. Like lately, I've watched a lot of independent movies, but he didn't sell out the ending. He let it happen. And, you know, and it lands hard.

And then that's when I realized that the narrator, in order for that movie to survive the human spirit, that guy had to come back do you know what i mean exactly there had exactly there had to be that button or else we're just going to be like whoa you don't know what he did and but i watched it's very smart movie watching on your part because that is something that john himself struggled with oh really no filmmaker worth their salt wants to have a film work with a voiceover. Right. You know, that's sort of a, but always in the script, that voiceover was there because

John already understood what you understood at the end of the film. Well, yeah, because at the beginning, it's sort of like it had struck a note, like, you know, like the big short, really, there was, you know, this explaining, and there was sort of a kind of like, not sarcastic, but kind of a devilish narration to the darkness that's unfolding that gives it kind of a comedic tone initially. And then it kind of diminishes a bit, and then at the end you realize, like, oh, this is a devil, you know, on some level, right?

Yeah. So I like that. oh, this is a devil, you know, on some level, right? Yeah. So I like that. No, there is definitely people in the world who do wrong, and John's not afraid to talk about that either. Yeah, and he illustrates, you know, the lack of conscience on behalf of those people. But I've watched a string of movies lately that were all indie movies that had this kind of strange,

like this wasn't one of them, but I watched Frozen River for the first time last night because I knew I was going to talk to you. And I've watched A Fighter. I watched A Fighter, it seems like, once a month. So I know that movie, and I know some of your other work. But in Frozen River, I just watched Nomadland. Did you watch Nomadland?

No, I haven't seen that. I watched that, and I watched another movie called Minari. And then I watched Frozen River, I just watched Nomadland. Did you watch Nomadland? No, I haven't seen that. I watched that and I watched another movie called Minari. And then I watched Frozen River. And there are all these movies that have these bleak, tragic undercurrents, but somehow or another at the end, the human spirit is enough to lift the movie to a resolution where you don't want to shoot yourself. And that was true with Frozen River, too, which was really a breakout movie for you, right?

Frozen River was a huge breakout movie for me. And I don't, I'm not often asked to play the lead. And Courtney Hunt asked me to play the lead in that film. And it's so much more interesting for an actor to really sink their teeth into the whole story right to have the character's whole story being told and not sort of used as a pawn in the telling of the rest of the story it's a tricky thing for a supporting actor to to do is is sort of literally support the rest of the film is very different than, than carrying the film. Really?

Because you, you, you feel that the way. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, there's a different, there's a different intention in it.

It has to do with that. The character who's leading their story is more fully told. Right. And the supporting characters you may or may not know about. And the beautiful thing in Frozen River, although it wasn't sort of sold this way, but Frozen River is a highly unusual film in that it actually has two women who are leading the film. Misty Upham, no less than I, a lead actor in that film. And also unpredictable. Like it's one of those movies where you really, you don't see anything coming.

And that's really so amazing. It's really a great experience to witness. I am delighted that you had a reason to finally watch that film because, and this might be completely the wrong thing to say, but I'll be the girl in the room doing that. might be completely the wrong thing to say but i'll be the girl in the room doing that um frozen river is by far a finer film if you're just looking at filmmaking than fighter will ever hope to be fighter is a fascinating story it has fascinating elements to it dick ecklund alone is enough to tell a story about and fighter is about so much more than that. Bale nails the character so amazingly, even though he's so far from Dickie in reality. So, you know, there's wonderful things about Fighter.

Right. Frozen River is an incredibly intentional film made by a female, which not a lot of films you ever hear about are. And Courtney set out to make a film that her rather straight, quite white father would sit his ass in a chair and watch from beginning to end. It's a very intentional film. What you saw last night is what Courtney Hunt wrote on the page. It's not manufactured afterwards from the footage that's there and move this here, move that there. It's an incredibly well-written film that was incredibly well realized for a much smaller amount of money than anybody will ever know and by a much smaller amount of people than ever is accepted as a legitimate amount of people to make a film right um it's frozen river is miraculous yeah i i i don't know how i missed it or why i missed it but there's so there you miss things you know what are you going to do and it's called

advertising advertising and also like you know there's a lot of it but it came out at a time where i i shouldn't have missed it but i mean but it's interesting getting back to this this thing that that moves you that you know you said something about the reason for behavior that you know without without a reason for behavior you don't really know where to go with this gut that you have like you need to know that for every character right i mean it doesn't matter how small it is oh yeah no i'll have to answer a lot of questions with alice ward is a fine example of that i mean i had to answer all kinds of questions that were in the fighter and a lot of those questions were answered because

i met them all i met all nine of the children i met alice ward herself the guys who are hanging around the set constantly hoping to catch a sight of Alice. Yeah. Had all been in love with her at one time or another in that tiny little town of Lowell. And they loved me because they saw me as her. And all of that reality of it added to the performance. So there weren't things that as an actor I had to guess at. Yeah. I could just

turn to alice i could turn to lowell massachusetts it's not a town i know well but i know enough about new england to understand the long cold winter nine children several different fathers you know sure a lot of information yeah it also like you know in comparing those two movies the weird thing about those dav O. Russell movies, particularly like Silver Lining Playbook, Silver Lining Playbook, like those two, it seems to me, go together, that they're fundamentally, it's an entertainment movie.

You know it's going to end good. You know what I mean? It's like there's a happy ending on that thing. So, like, in terms of what's revealed in the story and comparing it to something like Frozen River, I mean, Russell enters that movie knowing that it's going to be glorious at the end. Right. You know, Frozen River.

I don't know, Russell. He adores movies and moviegoers and people and all kinds of things that add to the strengths of those films. Sure. But like those two in particular. And Hustle 2 is fun. Joy, it got away from me a little bit because I didn't understand what the movie was about. That's okay. Yeah.

And that's okay. Yeah. But the Frozen River movie, it's like you don't feel like everything's going to be okay for anybody, but you do feel like the human spirit transcended. Right? Exactly. Exactly right. And you just gave me chills describing it that way.

Very, very nice. So like when you started, where did you, where'd you grow up? I was born in Manhattan. In actual Manhattan. In actual Manhattan. I, I, New York, New York. You're a New York kid? Brooklyn. Yeah. I was there until I was, uh, my brother and I struggle over this, about eight or nine years old. When, for several reasons, we were evicted from our apartment on East 10th Street. The family? Yeah, the family, my mother, my brother and I. Your dad was already gone? My dad had gone.

That was part of the eviction. He had two rent control departments in his name a new yorker will understand that yes um and so probably to this day to this day you're mad that you lost that oh that apartment when i was a kid was 40 a month so it was a it had garden it was a basement apartment with a garden on 10th street huh, huh? Like what, in the alphabets? No, no, no, between 2nd and 3rd, one of the prettiest blocks in the city. Oh, my God. It's a remarkable block.

The building that I came home from St. Vincent's Hospital and spent the first several years of my life in was actually, although they're brownstones that all match one another. Yeah. match one another. Yeah. On that side of 10th Street, the other side of 10th Street, not so. The corner up by 3rd Avenue no longer either because NYU owns it. But the majority of the block of brownstones built by a single architect. In the middle of the block is 112. And 112 has a different kind of wider, broader windows in it because it was built originally as an artist's residence.

Oh, look at that. So I came home to live in an artist's residence. I went to PS-122, which is now known in New York as Public Space 122. Yes, I've done shows there. That was my grade school. Wow. I also used to go with my mother to the Covered Market.

That is also now a theater. So it was just meant to be that I do what I do. And you have these memories are clear, huh? The memories are clear of those places of my upbringing, my family, not so much. The memories of going around the corner to the building that eventually became the public theater and working with Peter Schumann and his bread and puppet theater. What was that? Was that a child's theater? Not a child's theater.

Peter Schumann is a German political avant-garde puppeteer. Okay. And he, since 1963, has orchestrated the Bread and Puppet Theater. Oh, that's his thing, huh? That's Schumann's thing. And he did that out of New York? Originally, they were based, New York City owned that building that Joe Papp eventually got and called the public

theater um uh that's a huge building it's a huge building and for a dollar a month uh schumann and his troop had a floor available to them in that building um that was real estate has changed in new york but um yeah and i would go over there and work with clay and paper mache to build these puppets. Then we were asked, my brother and I, did we want to be in the show? I had no idea what a show was for. I had no television in the house. And we would go and me and a bunch of grown-ups would pretend a story. It was the story of the nativity, and we would pretend the story and do it, and they all cared so much about the pretending. It was so serious.

It was wonderful. And then we went over there one time at night, and these people sat down and watched the pretending and believed it. You could hear them believing us pretending. And that I was sold on. I had no idea he was my first director. I had no idea this was theater, that we were performers. It just related to my favorite childhood game of pretending. And many years later, realized probably in my late 20s, early 30s, Schumann had been my first director.

It gave an outlet to something that was inside of me. That was the one thing I seemed to understand. I could understand a game of pretend better than anything real. Did you find it was pretending a relief mechanism? Did you like to pretend because it was just fun or because it got you out of whatever sadness? The best that I can explain about it is that it was i understood it i understood pretending in a way that the world full of its complications and um yeah yeah no i get it yeah i didn't understand like that that moment where you're like they're buying it this is you know exactly okay i'd walk down this

street and and hold my mama's elbow and say mama i'm blind yeah yeah and she would forever fail me by you know taking her elbow away or saying look at that yeah mom i can't see yeah she wouldn't play along yeah not not not enough she didn't want she wasn't involved she didn't want to be part of the improv? Yeah, maybe not. Maybe not. So you did that as a kid, and then did it evolve? Did you act throughout high school? Did you continue?

Well, I had very unconventional upbringing and very unconventional educational reality. Why is that? Well, I was thrown out of eighth grade because the art teacher didn't like me, and she claimed I had not done my homework. And I showed her the painting I had done again, and I said, well, I did my homework. But she said it didn't fulfill the assignment, and I didn't know what that meant. And I told her she could shove it up her behind. And they sent me down to the headmaster and the headmaster was, oh, I just don't know what to do with you. And I said, well, how about I just don't come to

school anymore? And then I went a little bit to high school, but not really. I don't really remember any classes. I remember skipping classes much more than going to class. That's weird. And then my mom got a job in England and that brought us over there. And I landed eventually in a small theater school there in London. That was a fortuitous shift. Yeah, it was. I mean, and I had also as a freshman in that high school up in Bellows Falls, Vermont, I had gone to them and said, I see we have this big theater here. Do you do theater?

Yeah. And they said, yes, well, dear heart, when you get to be a, what is it, a junior or a senior, you can be in the theater program. And I said, well, you know, I'm going to do this with my life. And so I think it might be a really good idea to let me be in the theater program. It might keep me interested in school. And they didn't see it that way and i like that that you can still tap into what seems like a visceral resentment of these people they're they're bad like i was sitting here listening to it i'm like jesus she you're like i like it.

I mean, look, you got to hold on to that. I mean, it's not far from the surface with me either, you know? Well, the people who stop you in your life when you have a fairly clear idea of something, that's a dangerous thing. I mean, it really could have stopped me. And I don't know what I would have done with my life if I hadn't kept on finding the door that said acting and going through it. I very seriously do not know what I would have done with my life. And there were enough influences that I probably wouldn't be here now. Right. And those people are usually doing it out of some dumb personal issue of their

own, like just some dumb power, you know, stupid insensitivity protocol. Yeah. And business as usual. I mean, there's nothing more dangerous than business as usual in the United States of America. Exactly. So but that's and I think it seems that, you know, you've, you've fought that fight before. I mean, like, it seems like in terms of you establishing yourself to be the amazing actress that you are was, was no easy ride. Well, on the one hand that might be so. And on the other hand, I knew, and I say still to people of any age that think, oh, I want to be an actor. My first response is, and I said it to myself for many years, if anything can stop you, let it. I tell people that about comedy, too.

It's just like, figure out another thing that will make you happy. Yeah. It's not for the faint of heart or the ones who feel like they think that it'd be really cool that's right it's not for people who who actually think in terms of like it it's it's not a choice if you're gonna do it that i think so right and that's what people don't understand it's not like i'm gonna try it it's not like i do this other thing but i can i want to try this it's like there's no other thing this is it and i bet i bet when you were being funny as a kid i bet you were really funny and

i bet you got in trouble for it all the time all the time i got kicked out of schools you know i yeah sure it but like when it came down to it there was i just didn't see any other option there you know there was just there there was never a plan b outside of you know like you know working at a restaurant and even that went away there's like i was so bad at that you wouldn't want me as your waiter get your own fucking coffee you tried though right i tried people tried to help me yeah and then there was this idea that like you know as things as i as a you know i get more bitter and less successful i'm like well i could always teach teach what what am i going to teach let me go back but uh you know it's just yeah i think it's really a

matter of like there's no other thing that you could do and you know that that that to me is what an artist is whatever kind of artist they might be i think that's right and and like there are some people like you know who i talked to do you know uh aza jacobs director his parents were experimental film people in new york and they're still at it and it's a small world of like experimental film like kenneth anger's type of stuff but they've been doing it for 50 years and they have no desire to change anything this is what they do and you know and and he's archiving some of it but but like when i i just talked to him and i realized oh my god there's there there's there was never there's no other choice this is this is it and and success has little to do with it you know yeah success might let us eat a little better um and have a little nicer roof over our heads perhaps

but um it's it's not it doesn't change the instrument it doesn't change the sense of no it might make it a little better even uh you know in terms of like you know if the the the the baseline desperation of of fear of destitution or or not getting any work is relieved a little bit you know maybe you shouldn't complain about that and just use it use the space wisely right oh absolutely absolutely that that yeah you use the space wisely, right? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Use the space wisely. Very fine advice.

Exactly. And then it also, you know, who knows? At any point, any one of the jobs could be the last job. I mean, it's definitely that. I'm not. I have dipped my toe into producing. I've dipped my toe into working with a writer to develop something. I'm not. I have dipped my toe into producing. I dipped my toe into working with a writer to develop some. I'm not. I'm an actor for hire. Right. That's what I am. Oh, so you had to come in a way you were provide you were given opportunities to do these other things and you had to come back around to like, you know what, I just want to act. And, you know, that's what I do. I have very strong feelings about the way that actors are sort of kept out of a lot of the conversation about what we do.

We're talked about an awfully lot. We're talked to very little. Is that true? Like in what way? Very true. How do you mean? Because my understanding before I started doing more acting of a director was that, you know, a director is going to tell you what to do. But a lot of times directors hire you because they believe that you know what to do. So in that context, in a broader context, what do you mean that actors are left out of the conversation? that actors are left out of the conversation.

Well, I mean, there simply is a phase of making a television show or a film that we call pre-production. Okay. In which daily meetings are taken, investigation throughout the area you'll be working in to find the locations. Yes. Conversations about those locations. Right. Which will eventually be my character's home.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, right. Do not include me. Right. And that kind of can then also continue to the sense of, you know, well, on this, I eventually, I had been asked several times, what did I think the character would wear? What did I think the character, well, I think she might wear this and that and talk to the costume designer and tried on a bunch of clothing that turned out neither the

showrunner nor the network were interested in seeing me in. And they had another idea of how the character would look. And then I said, well, you tell me because I'm happy to do as I'm told. That's actually the job of the actor. It's very difficult in today's world where half of the time or more than you're being told what to do by somebody who does not know what they're talking about. That's when it gets hard. Do you generally know that right away or does it take a minute? Sometimes it's a slow burn to that. You're hopeful, always hopeful. That's a great, that horrible realization

where you're weeks into it and you're like, oh my God, they don't know what they're talking about. You should not be listening to a word they're saying. And then there's little tricks you can do, which is something one should not talk about in interviews where you can sort of go, oh yes, of course, and do what you know is right. Right. That you, you know, you, you agree to, you know, do,

do the one thing that they want and then do it your, yeah, your way. But the truth of that is even worse because the truth of that is that, you know, as an actor, just like, like a seaman on a ship, right? Yeah. Captain says all hands on deck, all hands show up on deck. Right. That's just what we do. Yeah.

So when the director says, do it more brightly, you can't unhear that. Yes. So even though you know it needs to be darker, you find yourself doing it more brightly. Right. And then you have to watch that and go, like, fuck. And that's why we watch our work. But also the other sacrifice you have to make when you have the sort of like, sure, I'll do it that way, and you do it your way, is that when your way works better, they're going to take responsibility for it.

Oh, I have no problem with that to i don't need any of that i don't need to people to know my name or know my work or know it was my idea i have that is of no importance to me does it work that's all i want to know and you can you know that i just don't have, I don't, I'm not, it's in my own nature to not take the ownership. Right. And in fact, you want a director who very much wants to take the ownership. It's a joy of working with John Swab. John Swab has no fear of being the leader of all of us. Right.

And that makes you feel like you can even take more risks, I would imagine. A hundred percent. That, you know, you trust the guy, you know, and he's got a vision. So if you're part of someone's vision and they know what it is, it's sort of like, OK, great. And now I have space to work. So did you did you train at all? Did you go to acting school at all? I did. I did several different at all? Did you go to acting school at all? I did.

I did several different bouts of my training. Of course, there was the very early days with Peter Schumann, who would have even known I was training. And then I went to this small theater school in London where I don't know that I learned that much. I think that I learned things about the discipline of theater and things like that. It was a really good time. I spent there having a year going to Mount Vu Theater School. And then I came back to the United States and I wasted some time, oddly enough, out in Oklahoma and nothing to do with swab. Oh, working in a gas station, working in a bakery, trying to make a living. Why Oklahoma?

I had a notion that I could, in the middle of the country there, make a bankroll, like maybe $1,000 or something like a lot like that. And then from the center of the country, i could work my way west to act or i could head back east come on oklahoma you just you decide you decided there was a fella there was a fella there you go there you go i was a little young for it but there was a fella involved and no one goes to oklahoma just because yeah no yeah no and that turned into what and that turned into just nothing and all sorts of uh nonsense and my father worrying about me perhaps more than he ever had in his life to that point and he applied to college for me now where's your now where's your

dad I mean I know he split and there was a problem with the apartment. Yeah. And he lives out on the East end of Long Island and there's a relationship there. I won't say that it's as close as a father and daughter could hope to be. It's probably my bad, but I have a hard time with that disappearing when I most needed him. But there's a relationship there, and I'm glad my son developed a relationship with his grandfather. That feels very, very important to me. How old's your son? He's a good man. My son is 33.

Wow. He's a grown man. He's a grown man, yes. Oh, that's right. He is making his own way in the world. Is he outside of show business? He is. No, no, no. It's a much more stable industry he's in oh yeah he's a fine artist what's his medium he primarily paints but um he was uh

he trained for some time at cal arts he's also gone to a very known art school in Germany, and he's living now in Berlin and making his first steps as an actual artist. That's great. Quite remarkable. Amazing. And I'm not the only one who thinks what he does is not only very good, but quite interesting. What's his name?

Which is important in art. His name is John Matthew Mortimer Heschel Hurd. We call him Jack. Jack Hurd? Oh, so his dad was John Hurd, right? Correct. Yes. I'm sorry for that guy's loss.

What a great actor. Yes, yes. Very sad loss. I have a psychic that tells me he's right here oh he's right there it's so fun it's so funny because i just watched uh cutter's way recently oh my god yeah that's some good acting right everybody was so damn good he was great so damn good i i love him in that and he sort of aged beautifully as an actor really were you guys together when he passed away no we had not been together for a long time by the time my son was nine months old we had separated um he was well known for being pretty hard on women and myself included and a wonderful

dad i have no complaints as john of john as as a father he was he was a hard partner to have. Oh, yeah. You've had quite a life there, Melissa. Oh, there's been one or two ups and downs and round the blocks and one thing and another. So- Feel very lucky and blessed in the long run. So what happened? So you, okay, so you did the London thing and then where do you train? Oh, so then I, yeah, some training there in London. And then I went to SUNY Purchase for Oh, so then I had some training there in London and then I went to SUNY Purchase for sort of two and a half years. And I really was not going to graduate within the four year program. I excelled in theater, voice.

They had a good program. They had a very good, very interesting program. My acting teacher, Joan Potter, is no longer with us. very interesting program. My acting teacher, Joan Potter is no longer with us. She's much beloved by me and many of the students after being in her class. She was a little difficult to be in the class with,

but like some actors that we know were in that class. Didn't Chris Cooper go there? I'm not sure about Chris Cooper. Stan Tucci was in the year ahead of me. Edie Falco came in behind me. So you didn't finish it out, though? No, I didn't, because there was a very small handful of academic classes

that the theater arts majors were expected to pass, including theater history. But let's go back in the conversation a little bit. I didn't really go to school. Right. Right? So I never really

learned any of those things. And we had a wonderful theater history teacher, Norris Houghton. He had designed the theater program there largely. And the beginning of the semester with him, he had us all buy a book, a wonderful book called The Concise History of the Theater. I was all by a book, a wonderful book called The Concise History of the Theater. And every time he gave a lecture once a week, there'd be page numbers on the blackboard. I did not know I was supposed to have read those pages. You just didn't understand how a classroom works. I had no idea how a classroom works. I had no idea how a classroom works.

And the then dean of the theater arts program, the wonderful Do Stockdale, saw in me something that made sense that she's got some failing socially on the character's part. Academically, I would say for Melissa, I needed some kind of special help to get the basics. And you don't get the basics, you can't ever really go forward. And I never really got the basics. I you don't get the basics you can't ever really go forward and i never really got the basics i've learned how to read reading scripts yeah i've learned everything i actually know through my work not through being in school huh so there's a lot of things in the world that still are surprising and interesting to me that people learned about in seventh and eighth grade. Right. Like, yeah, like math. Math is a quandary to me. I have a fear of numbers. I just don't understand, but I can use my fingers. They work good. So your whole semblance of life and understanding of us i imagine some of the things that

you missed learning you've learned through characters like if you absolutely because because you do like a million movies i mean i i brought that up before i mean i you know like in 2008 you were in nine movies that was released according to what they were yeah it's all right but in like in the same 2009 seven movies so it seems to me that once you started going like if the if the if it took if it was two to three weeks four weeks five weeks you could line up maybe three or four five five movies a year yeah i never i haven't had the kind of career where i see the work well ahead of me right yes um it's it just it comes i do it and in the last eight nine years ten years there have been things that have sort of come in on top of each other right and because

i don't know any better, I say to my representatives, well, it'll work. Right. We'll do both of them. Right. And they work very, very hard with scheduling and negotiations and things.

And I still remain, it's a rare necessity that I refuse work. There is a role I consistently refuse. And that is this person I've alluded to in the conversation, the woman who is not really explained. Most recently, there was a film that came to me. I didn't even open and read it. All I read was the byline. And I know I'm not interested. It's about a young woman. She's got some issues. Apparently, her biggest issue is her mother and the stepfather in the house. But we're not telling their story, which might be very interesting, why somebody ends up being such a louse as a parent. Right.

But I don't know that story. I went through very hard parenthood, but both me and my son's father were the best parents. We knew how to be to our son. So to be a shitty parent, I just, I can't relate to that because I played Alice Ward. That's what people see.

Yeah. Far from a shitty parent. Right. And that's why I got an Academy Award for it, because I refused to simply play the shitty mom. Right. Right. And you're saying that if you're not given a script that at least involves some reason why this behavior is what it is. Yeah, but even that and sometimes that filmmaker will

sort of try and write a great big long speech yeah but you know right right well you know but the character's not study is not in the script no exactly right and though that is a part that very consistently i have refused i don't think we need to see too many more wham wham wham my parents were mean to me coming of age films i really think that we've really exhausted that genre in my lifetime sure and but also in the fighter that what's interesting to me is that like it's about what you said earlier about those people who who have power or make choices and they're stupid because to box you in to compartmentalize that performance as like well she played that crappy mother in that movie it's so uh shallow that you know that to

typecast you as that based on that you know that that's not that's a dumb person i i would have to agree with you and that then says very sadly that there's a lot of dumb out there yeah yeah well there's no doubt that if there's one thing we've learned as of late, that there's no end to the parade of stupid. So but getting back to this idea of learning through like because it's interesting to me that if you're kind of a blank slate, you know, in terms of education outside of the things that interest you, that the process of playing even a character like you did in um in the body brokers you know engages you in a way of thinking that that is unique it's proactive it's helpful it's interesting it has its own context and you learn to be a therapist in a way exactly exactly right and it's interesting what you were saying about the therapist and body brokers as well, because the questions that you were asking about her are exactly the questions I asked of John. Is she in on it? Is she in on it? Is she a good therapist? Is she a bad therapist?

And the most that John would give me on it, and it was brilliant way to direct me, was to say, well, I'm sure she thinks she's good at her job. Right. You know, that she's trying her best. That's what people do. Right. And in the context of that, it's like, right. How could you not know? And whether or not she knows all that insurance shenanigan.

Doesn't matter. I don't need to venture a guess at right because what john is telling me by answering my questions the way that he did he's telling me that doesn't matter to the film right it's another great director gave me exactly the same direction basically when i asked zemeckis yeah i was going to face off with Denzel Washington in the final scenes of Flight. And I said to Zemeckis, I said, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to mother him, coddle him, be angry with him? He was drunk flying a commercial airliner. You know, what is, what does he, how does he want me to come at him? And Zemeckis brilliantly said to me, I want you to get him, get Denzel to tell you the

truth, any means necessary. That's what he's saying to me. He's saying any means necessary. Yeah. And giving the actor a very clear objective. And Denzel's a, you know, he's a real acting animal. That guy is like, that's like high octane shit. So what was that like working with him on that?

Super exciting day and a half of my life. Just thrilling day and a half of my life to have something so clearly set as my objective, costumed in exactly the right way little did i know it um just everything about that was it was also if you remember in that film uh zemeckis has denzel's face up on these screens the whole time yeah so whether or not the camera was facing where I was or facing where he was, he was on screen the whole time. Yeah.

Very, very present and alive. And it was, although I never got within, I think, 10 feet of him, it was some of the most intimate playing I have ever experienced. And so those kind of moments, like with this guy who directed Body Brokers and with Zemeckis, I mean, like who were some of the other directors that you found gave you stuff that you could take away forever, you know?

Alejandra Iñárritu came up to me and whispered in my ear when I was trying to figure out how to deal with Jack, the husband in 21 Grams. He said to me, it was such a good remark because it wasn't about the character. It wasn't about the scene. It wasn't about the way I was playing it. It was about me in front of a movie camera, which was not what I was trained for. Right. movie camera, which was not what I was trained for. Right.

And he whispered in my ear, Melissa is much better when you don't clench your jaw. I thought that was making me strong. Right. And he was saying to me, it looked like shit on film. Right. And I'm a mouth breather. So you're going to cut to me. I'm always going to have my mouth open.

So I have to really pay attention. So I guess I want to ask you a little bit as we kind of land this thing. I grew up, I was a doorman at the comedy store. And I've had a lifelong obsession. You know, I've worked there and I still work there. And, you know, I had an obsession with Mitzi. And you sort of played a character based on her in I'm Dying Up Here, which I guess sadly didn't last. But it was, it must have been interesting being in that world for a little while. But you didn't really, you didn't really study Mitzi.

You did what you wanted with that thing, right? When I went to shoot the pilot for I'm Dying Up Here, I had never heard study Mitzi you did what you wanted with that thing right when I went to shoot the pilot for I'm Dying Up Here I had never heard of Mitzi I had never been to a comedy club wow I had been inside the improv in New York when Marty back in 1984 invited me to take his improv workshop for free. Marty, Marty, Marty. Freeman. No kidding. Yeah. And, and he had, I'd met him through a friend and he said, come and take my class.

And I said, I can't afford a class. And he said, no, no, no, just come. I'm inviting you for free. Okay. I did it one time. The most terrifying experience ever in my life. And what year was that? Stand up there and be funny. the most terrifying experience ever in my life. And what year was that?

Stand up there and be funny. I'm guessing 84, 85, somewhere in there. In thinking back, it was such a big, and it was the only time I was ever, so it wasn't an up and running comedy club. It was a comedy club during the day when this class was going on in there. Right, sure, sure, yeah. Right, so I went out to do I'm Dying Up Here.

I had never heard of Mitzi. Of course, I'd seen the store up on Sunset, but I never went in. Right, right. I just, that seemed odd to me, to go someplace to be made to laugh. I just, anyway, whatever. I get it better now.

I get it better now. And I have such respect for the comics. I mean, not only the comics, the comics that we were telling history about, the comics that were on the show with us, the actors, bless their hearts, that were being asked to play comics. Actors know funny is the hardest thing. Drama is easy peasy next to funny. Sure. Yeah. Drama is easy peasy next to funny. Sure. It's such a it's such a on purpose thing. I make somebody laugh. That's like, wow. Get your mind around that. So I I knew that the character I was playing was Jewish because in the pilot episode, she has a long, long speech about a relative in Treblinka. Yes.

So how does this goy from New York be the Jewish lady out in California? Well, you had New York, so that's a third of it. Exactly. So I could do New York. That would be easy reach. I had to dye my hair that really brassy blonde. Her name was Goldie, for God's sake. And what else would a Jew from New York do when they got to California? So those were all things that informed me in finding my Goldie.

So then we're in the midst of shooting the pilot, and I find out that it's based on a book, but no, no, it's not necessary. I read the book. Okay. So I don't read the book. We finished the pilot and somewhere after we went to series, I did open the book and read it. I find it an extremely misogynistic book. I both like what he's saying about Mitzi on the one hand, but despise it all in the end. The hatred toward her, I think, is completely unwarranted. And then I heard at one point that poor Pauly, just months before his mother passed, as a matter of fact, was like, but my mother never did cocaine and my mother never. I was like, Jesus tell paulie sure i'm not playing his mother oh yeah so that was the biggest problem that was that was yeah it's complicated because i have at this point played real people. Lady Bird Johnson, Alice Ward.

Yes. That's a very different thing than inventing a character. And I feel, too, I'm always protective of the women I'm asked to play. I was very protective of Mitzi. There was a lot of Mitzi, of Goldie. Yeah. I was very protective of things that they were asking me to do within the show and that I felt were downright disrespectful of her. Didn't offer a chance to understand her side of

the story. Melissa Leo understands very well why Mitzi Shore didn't pay those comics in the beginning. The comics never once thought about what it costs to buy that booze and keep the place going and i mean i get the whole dialogue but they they wouldn't they wouldn't right say that exactly in the show so that was hard oh so there was a lack of a lack of empathy with because like it's a weird subculture. It's a very specific thing. The comedy store and it had a profound effect on a lot of people that went on to become very big players in the world of entertainment. And she sort of like represents something almost magical for both darkness and light.

I'm I'm guilty of it myself i i did a a documentary you know with mike binder and i was in her office and like i was a doorman there and i worked for her and i was so it was like she was the dark queen of this world that was you know she was like the mother to all these wayward borderline criminals you know it it's crazy man i think that is that is that documentary on netflix it's a comedy store documentary it deals with her a bit yeah it's on one segment that deals with her i loved that yeah i loved that because that was much more gracious towards mitzi than the i'm dying up Up There book ever was. There really, there was a seeking of an understanding of it. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Unique individual. And I really enjoyed that. It is my belief, and maybe I don't know enough, that she invented modern day comedy, Mitzi. Yeah. When the husband left and the store was there and she said paint it black one spotlight yeah only comics yeah and that had never been done before and there's there's comedy shops right and it was yeah it was one after the other showcase room like her and bud probably created this sort of like you know you can see 20 comics in a night thing. Yep. So that was, yeah. And comedy only, no vaudeville, no singing and dancing.

That's right. Just stand up there and be funny. The original improv was sort of a burlesque. It had more variety. So did Catch a Rising Star back in the day, but you're right, straight up comedy. Yep. Well, I love the movie.

I love you and it was great talking to you and i i wish you all the uh the luck with this film because i think it needs to be seen i i thank you for talking about body brokers today and and bringing john swab's name to the forefront you're going to hear a lot more about this young director i know okay Melissa, take care. Thank you so much for the time. There you go. That was Melissa Leo. I love her. And the movie Body Brokers is in theaters and video on demand now.

We'll have Michael K. Williams from the movie on Thursday's show. Hopefully, maybe one day I'll get to talk to that director. I'd like to pick his brain. But check that out. Also also check out Cliff's book we had a little real estate problem the unheralded story of Native Americans in comedy out now get it where you get books and now I'm gonna fucking play with my

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ああああああ ああああああ Boomer lives. Monkey. Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. We'll be right back. Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now.

For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.