WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1204 - Michael K. Williams

Episode Date: February 25, 2021

Michael K. Williams knows that a lot of people consider his character, Omar Little, to be the best character on The Wire. But he has a different opinion about the show's best character. Michael tells Marc about how he brought his struggles as an addict to his performance, how he relapsed while making the show, and how the cast gave him the support he needed to get clean. They also talk about Michael's scar and how it helped him land his first acting job, why he loves Rachael Ray so much, and why his role in the movie Body Brokers was so personal to him. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucknicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. How's it going?

My guest today is Michael K. Williams. Yeah, fucking Michael K. Williams. Omar from The Wire. Yeah, Omar from The Wire is here. You also know him from boardwalk empire the night of he's in the hbo movie bessie uh with uh queen latifah he's on this uh the other one the the lovecraft show you know a man it's a dude with a scar on his face. Big fan of his.

And he's in this new film, Body Brokers. And I also talked to Melissa Leo on Monday about the movie as well a bit. And it's one of these small movies. It's not going to get a lot of advertising money spent on it, and there's not going to be a lot of free publicity on it, but it's worth seeing, and it's worth hearing these people who are in it, and hopefully I can get to talk to the director as well,

but this movie is about the rehab racket. It's about the drug rehab racket on all levels. It doesn't pull any punches. It's got a little bit of snark to it in terms of the narration, which seems to be sort of a thing now. Kind of like that We uh we care a lot movie uh but but the nuts and bolts of it are pretty disturbing because there are people given the opportunity given the window you know given you know just the room to do it will be corrupt, morally bankrupt, greedy, evil fucks.

Almost everybody is an opportunist. Almost everybody is selfish. And when a system breaks down as thoroughly as the system has broken down here over the last four years even people who think they're good when they see a window of opportunity to do something a little off or way off will take it if they can rationalize the action anyways i'm that's another tangent maybe i could talk about that because I got a little something stuck in my craw. I don't know. Are there really innately sort of selfless or, you know, empathetic people? Are most people selfish fucking people?

I tend to think so. Like, I'm a cranky bastard. I'm defensive. You know, I seem to be kind of self-centered. But, you know, I spend a lot of time in my head. I spend a lot of time, even when it's not a plague, even when I'm not alone, I find I spend a lot of time in my head. But if you get me out of my head because you need help, if you call me up and you need something and you're a friend or somebody I know, and I know you're not trying to take advantage of me, I'll fucking step up. I mean, I'm not saying I'm the guy that's going to run into the burning building to pull the people out or the doggies or the kitties.

But, you know, when the guy comes down with the doggies or the kitties or the people, I'll walk him to the ambulance. I'll put a blanket around him and walk him to where they need to go to sit down or perhaps, you know, help give them a bottle of water. You know, I don't know if I'm the guy that's going to step in between a couple of guys fighting, but I'll hang around and say, hey, come on, chill. Look, I'm no saint, but my point is, are there good people? Are there just genuinely good people? You think about all these service, these healthcare people, they're tremendously good people. It's their job, but they do the job of helping. They do the job of healing.

Those people are altruistic and necessary. And thank God they exist. There are people that put their lives on the line for other people. And obviously, everyone's got their problems. But I'm saying I think most people are out for themselves. And I don't think that's just some part of capitalism. I think there seems to be a few different types of people. There's desperate people that need to survive.

So they're going to do what's necessary to survive. They have to. And hopefully it doesn't kill them or others. Then there's people that are just shamelessly fucking self-serving. Like, fuck you. I want mine. I get mine. I'll do whatever I have to do to get mine.

It doesn't even have to be about survival. Just, you know, fuck you. Get out of my way. I'm taking it. And then there's people that think they're good, yet they do the same thing. What am I beating around the bush about? I finally know somebody. Look, I'm sure there's plenty of people I know, rich people, people in positions of power that have jumped the line to get the vaccine. And the real question is,

if you had the opportunity, if I had the opportunity, you know, would I go get the vaccine? Probably. Am I seeking that opportunity out? No. If someone said to me, like, dude, I got some vaccine in my truck. Come here. Do you want vaccine? Fifty bucks.

I'll shoot you up right now. We can knock it out, dude. Fifty bucks. I got a cooler in the truck. I probably wouldn't do that. You know, am I going to hang around a parking lot of a clinic for leftover ones? No, it's happening. So I'm going to wait till my healthcare provider to my Walgreens makes it available to me. It's a drag. And I know there

are line jumpers, but the truth is, is that even if you think you're a good person, where's the virtue in waiting your turn if you don't have to? Right? I mean, if you had the choice or if you wanted to make it your goal, like, I'm tired of this shit. I'm going to do whatever I got to do to go find me a fucking shot of vaccine on the level, on the up and up. But knowing that it really isn't on the up and up because you know it's not your turn what do the virtuous get you know last in line covid they could die i guess but they'll die knowing that they didn't fucking jump the line. But there's no difference between the good people who think they're good and do the shitty thing and the people that are shamelessly shitty. The only difference

between those people is the good people pay lip service to feeling bad about it or guilty, surface to feeling bad about it or guilty, but they still did the same thing. You don't feel bad. Just be honest. I mean, people who jump lines or cheat or steal, but they're innately good people that have somehow rationalized their behavior primarily because they worked hard to figure out how to do it, or they took advantage of their place in the world to get special treatment. And they're like, yeah, I feel a little guilty. No, you don't. You don't feel bad.

You feel glad. Just shut up. Don't tell anybody if you cheated or if you jumped the line. Just keep it to yourself or just say, fuck you. I figured it out and I got it that's what you did that's who you are you're not like oh you know i probably shouldn't have but you know i just shut up you fucking put your mind to it and you figured out a way to jump the line

or get it but don't don't play games like you know i get it. But don't play games. Don't like, you know, I feel bad. No, you don't. People are selfish. It's like, what do you feel like? Hey, you know, it's like, I'm sorry I started that fire, you know, but, you know, we had a nice, it was a nice picnic. I mean, I feel bad about the fire that burned all those land and killed those horses. But, you know, those were good hot dogs.

Hey, it's really sad, man, that, you know, the neighbor's house burnt down because of our barbecue. But, you know, we had a good time. And, you know, I didn't really like, I don't really know them. And, you know, they're gone now. I mean, it's sad but i feel bad about it but you know you know we had a nice cookout spare me why am i so worked up i know why because i'm not trying to cheat to get my fucking vaccine and i want it so i can feel better i'm tired of it too. But this is what waiting

online sounds like. Fuck these people. Fuck. What about me? Come here, buddy. I got a cooler in the truck. I'm sitting on four Moderna. You like Moderna? You want the Pfizer? I got the Pfizer. Whatever you want, buddy. Just come over

to the truck, man. I got it in the cooler. You want Pfizer? I got the J&J coming next week. What do you need, buddy. Come over to the truck, man. I got it in the cooler. You want Pfizer? Got the J&J coming next week. What do you need, bro? $100. You got $200 cash? I'll lay the Moderna on you right now. I'll give you the second shot.

You can put it in your freezer. Just keep it for yourself. I'll give you the works. I'll give you everything. I'll give you the full kit. $200. Come on, man. I got it in the truck.

You want the Pfizer? I got the fizzy you want the fizzy you want the modern fizzy one shot of work two shots guaranteed j and j that shit's going for a little more a little pricier 500 man i got it right now you want it want the rig i'll give you the full works 500 for j and j so this movie body brokers is a good movie it's available to buy or rent on demand on platforms like itunes prime video and more body brokers is the name of the movie michael k williams is my guest you you also know him as Omar from The Wire. That was the big breakout. Boardwalk Empire, Lovecraft Country, The Night Of, Bessie. He was in Bessie, HBO. Anyways, I was nervous because I didn't know what he would be like.

But, man, we had a nice time and we had a nice chat. This is me talking to the amazing Michael K. Williams. chat. This is me talking to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Where are you at right now? I'm in New York, man. Brooklyn. BK. Is the snow still there?

Yeah, you know. Some snow on the ground. It's winter, so we do here. You know what I mean? I know. I lived there for a long time. I lived on the Lower East Side and over on 16th street i got no seasons out here yeah were you are you with callie now i'm in california and it's just a little chilly that's

our winter that little chill yeah yeah not too bad there's some part about having nothing to do that's not that terrible man then come on with it you've been talked that talk i mean i know it's like it gets a little crazy but on another level it's like hey if nobody else is doing anything fuck it i'm okay you're gonna have to be what's because the alternative sucks you know i mean it's like you have to be okay man and get some type of grounding did you get it or no you know i got a little a little scare um someone in my family they went down they had to be hospitalized and i was in contact with them um so you know um i quarantined uh yeah for the 14 days yeah and you know i there was a point where you know i was like

i don't smell nothing and you know the taste got a little, you know, like, damn. Because I cook, right? So I made a pot of curry. And I was like, damn, now I know I can taste my curry. And I was like, okay, maybe I am. So I had some symptoms, but grace of God, man, I didn't have to be hospitalized. No temperatures, no problems breathing.

That's when I just quarantined. So you tested, you got it. You got it. And you just got a yeah so but so you you you did you tested you got it you got it and you just got a minor yes oh yeah you got lucky it's fucking crazy man yeah yeah you know i mean i i you know i i i i consider myself blessed today man you know one i got good genes you know um you know i got i came from really good genes physically. And, you know, over the summer, man, you know, like you spoke about with everybody else ain't doing nothing. So I had to find something to do because nothing for me is not an option. I don't mind double workshop. I'm that dude. So, you know, I found I found physical fitness this summer, but not for the sake of muscles.

I found physical fitness this summer, but not for the sake of muscles. You know, I got real got real familiar with cardio and calisthenics and stretching and breathing. Simple shit. And I truly believe, man, that because I put that in my program and my daily routine, that it gave me a leg to stand on to fight that motherfucker back a little bit. That that shit didn't knock me down. I mean, I'm no doctor. That's just my little take on it. That's what I chose to believe, that we are so conditioned to run from this

thing that I think sometimes we need to also remember that we have everything in our bodies to at least arm it to fight back. We got a gun in our body. It's called an immune system. If we put some bullets in that motherfucker, we might just slay the giant.

We don't know until we fight back. So that's where I'm at with it. Hold on one second. Don't hang up. Hold on one second. I'm not going to hang up. I had my little lunch on the stove. I smoked this and it turned to shit. So what's up, man? Talk to me, Mark. Well, yeah, I mean, on the, on the snow. I smelled this. I missed it.

So what's up, man? Talk to me, Mark. Well, uh, yeah, I mean, I've been doing that too.

You do. Do you meditate? Yeah. Yeah. Not as much as I used to. I'm one of those people like, damn, you know,

meditating is so hard. I'm like, damn, Mike, you mean sitting down, not saying shit, turning up your brain, closing your eyes.

That's hard like really you got you got to do it first thing it's only hard if you've been doing other shit if you had a bunch of coffee you've already eaten you know what i mean well whatever you you've already on the computer and then all of a sudden i gotta sit down and shut it off right when you get out of bed just do it that's what i've been doing i just started a couple months ago you know what i received that brother thank you that's the trick because you know i wait till i you know by the time i remember to do it i've already done a few things in the morning yeah and your brain is on fire yeah it can't it's here that's what the trick do it first thing in the morning before my feet even leave the bed right i got I got the mat on the floor. I just see it on the floor, and I get up, and I do yoga a little bit, and then I sit

with the guy, the English guy on the app, the Headspace app, and he talks me through it. He's annoying, but he talks me through it. You know what? I'm going to take that suggestion, bro. I'm like, the next time I see you, I'm going to be like, thank you, and this is what I'll do. You gave me two things.

One, do it first thing in the morning. And I got a yoga mat here that I never use. But if I lay it out in my room, in my bedroom by my bed, and if I see it, it'll jar my memory. That's a great idea, man. I'm going to try that shit, bro. Yeah, just get up and do it. Also, I'm a big fan and i uh i watched the new movie

the body brokers and uh i you know look i'm a sober dude you know and i like i know that world a little bit and then you as it reveals itself it's sort of like it's insane and heartbreaking and uh and informative i really like the movie and i thought that you did a great job with it man oh man thank you you know and um for you know first of all this was it was this was a passion project for me because um i share your story you know i'm in the club as well too really yeah yeah yes sir yes sir you know and um you know anybody that has heard me speak before i'm not i'm not shy about it you know relapse the part of my story and you know and um you know anybody that that's heard me speak before i'm not i'm not shy about it you know relapse is the part of my story and you know but i'm living good today you know i

guess all we got is today but this film you know jails drugs jails um institutions right yeah right so um yeah i've had my fair share of institutions i you know thank god i haven't gone to jail yet and obviously i'm still here but i've had my fair share with institutions and you know i feel what you said was this this film the narrative of this film was extremely disturbing extremely disturbing and i was like i did almost like well like what do we do with that like that's are you kidding me so when you when you first read the script uh by uh john swab is that his name yeah john swab man great guy right he's the writer and the director yeah because i i know guys that work in that industry but my buddy mike he came over yesterday to talk a little bit because i told him about the movie and he's like when he works with in in rehabs and he had to quit two jobs you know because they were corrupt and he didn't feel

comfortable right so my my thing was you know when you read that script as a sober guy you know you realize you must have realized like you know i gotta do this people have to know this right but then the character too like that character he's not only a guy who's not quite sober and playing that part but this it's a movie about people rationalizing you know compartmentalizing things that makes them kind of evil right yes i mean you hit it right on the head you know um you know as we all as you and i we both know um yeah being sober doesn't take away the craziness. There's a lot of crazy motherfuckers in this program, me included. I call them demons in exile.

There you go. And to me, Wood was a perfect example of that. I'm sober, but i can still do cocaine you know but and even i'm sober but i can still you know use people right you know i'm selling drugs yeah you know that was even more profound you know because for me film, it spoke about the insanity. And like people think that, or I assume that sometimes people think that drugs are the problem. Drugs are the symptom of the problem. You know, once we put the drugs down, that's when the work begins. We got to clean up this house. All this garbage, right?

And so, because it manifests in other ways in our life, poor decision making, you know, and poor characteristic traits. Right. And so what was a perfect example and an opportunity for me to show that side of of what a recovering addict looks like? It's not all roses. And once you put the drug down, down it's happily ever after and life is going to be great no there's a lot of stinking thinking that we need to get rid of and bad bad habits and bad thought processes and wood is the example of that but i'll tell you the redeeming moment for me with wood in the car and he ripped yes the car scene and when he apologized he apologized he made amends man and that was that was that redeeming quality in him that made me fall in love with the character on a whole nother level that that acting to where you know you drop into the heart of that guy that's actually tormented

and not the guy that justifies his behavior that was a great turn there and you could feel like those choices man man i you know and i just want to take the time this time to also say you know you know um i i wasn't in that scene alone obviously um man i just got to tell you jack kilmer what he bought the the um the honesty the vulnerability that he bought to that character, man, him and Alice, they are, they are like, I'm obsessed with them. I can't take my eyes off of them, man, in this film, but with, but with Jack bought in that, in that, in that scene, in that car, you know, that level of loyalty that he had, that the way he looked up, it would,

he bought so much to the to the dynamic man i couldn't have i couldn't have reached where i needed to be had it not been for what he brought to the table that's interesting it was it was yeah he was great and it was definitely that contrast of like you know that moment where he says like you know people been talking to me like that my whole life you Come on, bro. Come on, bro. Validation. He saw wood. That was like a meeting in the car right there.

Right. Man, that scene, it meant a lot to me. And he brought so much to it, bro. Him with his instrument, he brought so much to the character. He made it very easy for me. Very easy. Yeah, man. Well, I got a question because I get asked it too

because when I did the show Glow, my character does blow, you know? And I've been sober, you know, 22 years, something. And people always ask me, like, was that hard? And I'm like, I don't know. I didn't even think about it. What was it like for you to be around drugs? And I'm like, I don't know. I didn't even think about it.

What was it like for you to be around drugs? You know, in the film Body Brokers, ironically, Wood didn't trigger me because of the decision that I made as to where he was in his recovery when he was sniffing that coke at that pool party. Yeah. I'll tell you who did, who did trip me the fuck up. It was Freddie Knight on the night of when he was sniffing dope and, and, and the reasons why the escapism, um, that was very, that was very familiar to my to my journey to my to my my struggle with this

this disease man when you were when you were in jail yes it's called the night of and yeah no i saw it name was yeah yeah freddie freddie knight triggered the hell out of me man he woke up he was rubbing that genie bottle like a mother i was like no no you're back in it yeah you know i don't know wood wood that night you know i believed wood when he said man yeah you know you know um it was more about you know the chicks being in the moment i don't think that he was um that he was in a relapsed state of mind although you know technically he he did really he did get high I don't think that it was that I think

he was just in the moment and cause he said you know the chicks these dumb chicks bought this shit over here blah blah blah blah you know whatever you know Freddie was in a different space you know I don't know how to do drugs recreationally just for the moment I know how to numb the pain.

Right, he did it to cope. Yeah, cope. That's what I did it for. And that tripped me up. Right, man. So now, when did you start? Where do you think it started with you? I mean, where'd you grow up?

I grew up in Brooklyn, man. I grew up in East Flatbush, Brooklyn, in a little little project called the Vanderveer, Vanderveer States. And, you know, you know, like I say, it ain't about the drug, the drug is the symptom of the problem. But I started coping very early. And, you know, I became an actor very early. I would say by age nine, I was completely addicted to fantasy, like nothing about my life that i want you know so um like how like how did that manifest itself like what kind of fantasies you what were you into i mean you know um um being something i wasn't you know like for instance uh my community you know is a western in caribbean community heavily that you know that's you know, that's, you know, we call the notion Avenue, little Haiti. Is that where your folks are from? No, my mother's from the Bahamas and my, and my father's from the South, which is,

so you had half of the community that was West Indian Caribbean and then you had the other half that was black American. And there was a clash of cultures like in the, in the mid to late seventies to the 80s and you you you had to pick one you were either a lazy welfare recipient yankee or you were a high high water wearing banana boat driving coconut yeah those were your options and my mother being from the Caribbean and my father being from the South, you know, and me having a huge need to fit in. And it's low self-esteem. I, you know, I started like, you know, I lost my identity very quickly, very young, trying to fit in to be to be liked, to be accepted, to go under the radar. So nobody would. I didn't want to ever be singled out.

Yeah. So, you know, the disconnect from getting to know who Michael was that started at a very early age and the ability to chameleon myself to fit whatever I thought you needed to see to get in with you had also started very early. So that's what I mean when I say I got addicted to fantasy very quick. Well, you yeah it also started very early so that's what i mean when i say i got addicted to fantasy very quick well you get addicted to like i have that problem too like you know by the end of this conversation i'll probably be talking exactly like you um

i just have that thing where i feel like i'm a whole person but you know when i get around stronger personalities you just kind of like, I'll just live in that guy's skin for a while. Welcome to my, and of course I became an actor, right? Like great, great job for someone like me, but you know, I nearly, you know, like drove myself crazy, man. But, um, you know, um, you know, again, wood was an opportunity to to explore all those different things, you know, because I believe in some form of fashion. We're all addicts, you know.

Yeah. Are the the the economy of this country is built on it. Thank you. It requires the movie. It requires what the film talks about. Yeah. It manifests in food, food disorders, sexual disorders, shopping disorders. You know, being codependent, you know, being emotionally manipulative.

That shit seeps out in so many different human personalities. That's my daily schedule you just read off yeah i would love to hear you speak one day bro real talk so you like to cook you're cooking back there did you grow up like because i i always assume that you know people from the caribbean i i always think about food you know like it like the so it must have been at least you had an interesting confluence of culture there in the food department huh absolutely you know and i'm a foodie you know uh i i don't eat to live i live to uh i i, I live to eat. Yeah. Feel me. Um, I just, uh,

I love everything about food, not just the eating process. I love the preparation. Like, you know, um, you know, in my mind,

Rachel Ray is like one of my best fucking friends. You know, I'll sit here and I'll watch a segment and she, you know, the way she, the way, you know, and butter.

Yeah. Oh, look at that. You know, she just makes my mouth water when she cooks. I share her passion for food. It's bananas. And then what I'll do is, you know,

I'll challenge myself. I won't go to the website and look at the recipe. I could look at what she's doing that day, and I know the basics of what she... She has a basic template that she works from you know garlic olive oil a little salt and pepper there's some and i so we got the same

foundation and i just kind of you know you know i might do i may put a little twist on it or change something up here i may even it up who knows but i just love i love the prepping of food i love you know trying new things and, do I love feeding people. I love when I call people over, man, let's break bread. Man, my people, my family, my friends. Right, and then you serve everybody, and then you have that minute where you're like, so? How good am I?

I'm great, right? It's great, right? Yeah. I did that. I did that. Pretty fucking good, right? I just love to see people eat, man. Me too.

Like, I do. And also, it's a great way to occupy the time, man. I've been smoking fish. I've been, like, I'm a Jew, so I've been trying to figure out how to smoke the fish like the old Jews. And I got this smoker out there, so I'm fucking prepping. I'm brining. I'm smoking fish yesterday I spent an hour trying to figure

out how to make perfect baba ganoush and then like you know you spend like three hours doing this shit like you know smoking fish takes hours and then I'll eat it in 30 seconds like I don't give a fuck I'll put I'll put hours into prep and then I'll just plow through it if I'm alone

and I make something I'll eat it in 25 seconds. You're two for two. The yoga mat and doing meditating in the morning. I'm going to find out how to smoke some fucking fish. You got a smoker? No, I'm going to get one. I've heard about this process before. I'm going to get the smoker, and I'm going to go to air fryer.

Those are two things I want to get. Oh, yeah. But the smoker. Oh, yeah'm going to go to air fryer. Those are two things I want to get. Oh, yeah. But the smoker. Oh, yeah. I heard about the air fryer. Everyone's talking about the air fryer. Yeah, but the smoker. Yeah, they gave it to me.

The Traeger grill, they gave me the smoker, the wood pellets. You got a yard to put it in? Yeah, I got a little outdoor space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, throw it up there. Yeah, I mean, I've been smoking the fish. I love to cook, and I'll do it by myself. It keeps me sane.

It's the same thing you were talking about with the, you know. I just got to be careful. Like, if I get off on, like, I made a pie. Like, I made, like, if I eat. If I fucking make a pie, dude, I'm fucked for weeks you know that i mean i'm making cakes talking about putting the pie in the pie hole huh yeah yeah i stay away from it yeah my family we were more pecan pie oh shit have you ever made that those are the never but i i will eat about three pies by myself i promise you that if you can it's pecan or sweet potato, I'll put that in front of me.

I eat sweet potatoes all the time. I just have them for a snack. That's what I do. And I drink a pot of coffee. This is how I manage my addiction, Mike. Just like if there's ever a spare minute, I'm thinking about, all right, what can I eat? What do we got? Ain't nothing.

Listen, bro, you ain't hurt nobody. I mean, like I said, I love food. You know what I mean? And, you know, I try to keep it, you know, I'm not a health nut in the sense where, you know, I don't eat this. I don't eat that. I don't care if I want a good, juicy, greasy cheeseburger. That's what I'm going to eat. You know, I'm not doing it every day.

I'm going to definitely make sure i use it in my in my in my regimen but um um yeah it's good yeah enjoy yourself try to enjoy the alternative we gotta enjoy life man we gotta enjoy yeah yeah i don't think about the other shit at all anymore so when did you like start really doing the acting i mean when did you start doing it like would you decide it was your life i mean was it one of those things where you're like you got to save your life with something you know uh the wire you know so before the wire um you know i used to be a background dancer you know mostly house acts you know crystal waters technotronics, things like that. You were a dancer? Yeah, man, I danced for like seven years,

man. Self-taught? Yeah, I'm a street dancer. I used to watch the Janet Jackson videos. That's how I learned how to catch choreography.

Then I started going public and I would try to do the dance and they'd be like, you're going the wrong way because I would learn off the freaking TV. That's funny.

So it's Rachel Ray and Janet Jackson. These are the keys to your existence TV. That's funny. So it's Rachel Ray and Janet Jackson. These are the keys to your existence. Damn right. So around in 97, 1998, well, my first film I ever did was a film called Bullet. Tupac Shakur, the late great Tupac Shakur, he saw a picture of Paul Loretta,

and he saw that I had this scar on my face, and he was like, oh, He told Julian Temple, the director, let's find this guy and audition him. That was the first thing I'd ever done. The scar got you the job? Basically, yes, it did. What was that fight about that got you that scar? Real simple, in a couple of sentences.

25th birthday, pissy, drunk, ballroom brawl. Nothing special. Except the fact that I almost lost my life that night. Who started it? There was a situation. Technically, I started it. I was drunk. I had the liquid courage in me.

And I saw a situation with someone that I had known at the time. Yeah. And it had nothing to do with me. And I stuck my nose in someone else's business. But in my drunk mind, I was being loyal. Like, you know, I'm not going to watch you get jumped. So and I was, you know, and so I was pumping my chest out due to the alcohol. And I was in that zone. And when that situation de-escalated, those dudes that were having a confrontation

with the person that I knew, they turned their attention on me. And the rest is history. So the second thing that I did was this movie called Mugshot, you know, and it was with Matt Mahern from New York City. And, you know, it was an independent film, but I went from being just like Tupac's little brother to my second thing was a lead role in an independent film.

So, you know, I was starting to get a little, you know, like starting to think this could happen. And then, you know, Dick Wolf, he had all of his projects, you know, New York Under Dick Wolf, he had all of, all of his projects, you know, New York on the cover, uh, law and orders that, that, that was essential for young New York city actors at the time. And I started booking those things, those things.

And then, um, the phone just went dead. 1999 rolls around. With the Dick Wolf stuff though, where they, they, did you feel like,

uh, you were being typecast? Hell no. I just, I never, you know, I, I still, to this day, don't, I don't acknowledge typecast? Hell no! I just, I never, you know, I still to this day don't, I don't acknowledge typecast, you know, newsflash,

you know, I don't get to assimilate into other cultures very much, you know, I'm a black man, and I tell the black experience, right? And, you know, I'm from the hood. Yeah. And I know for a fact, I got, I'm from the hood. Yeah. And I know for a fact, I have a front seat view with how people end up in the situations that they end up.

No one wakes up one morning and says, I got it. I'm going to be a successful, you know, a crack dealer on the corner. I'm going to be a successful thug that robs people. I'm going to be a successful thing. No one wakes up and says, I'm going to be a successful anything that gets them in jail. They do that out of a desperation and a feeling that they have no other options. And I've watched that happen so many times. The people that I call my brothers, my family members, and my community.

And when I started becoming an actor and people in Hollywood was looking to me to portray these stories, I immediately wore that as a badge of honor. I was like, this is my community. These are my people. I know these people. I'm going to do everything possible to make sure that people who don't know this lifestyle, don't know this community will leave from the story feeling empathy and having some sort of compassion and some sort of understanding. Not saying you've got to agree, but those three things, I made it my responsibility to leave the audience with those three things. Well, that's interesting. So your point of view was that, like, you know, instead of looking at me as somebody who is pigeonholed by this type of role, who is pigeonholed by this type of role, you say like, yeah, but these are real people who I know, and this is part of the experience, and I'm going to depict it with honesty and authenticity, you know, and these characters are going to be alive. This isn't, I'm not playing a caricature.

This isn't a puppet here, you know, so you won't so i imagine that when you you look at a script you think in terms of like you know how how deep is this fucker you know like is this a real thing or is are you selling this guy short i don't have to even wonder i can read the first 20 pages and know you're bullshitting as a writer right i don't have to even, it's nothing to wonder about. What I go in the script looking for is how do I identify? That's what I go looking for. Okay, Mike, how do you identify with this character?

Because I know if you're really saying you're writing a story about my community, I'm going to find somewhere on this man's life, I'm going to have a parallel with him so I go in looking for that and I can tell you you don't know what the fuck you're talking about within the first 20 pages and where'd you learn the craft

where'd you study the acting I studied well I was again New York City man no city like in the world and I was blessed to be introduced to the the off Broadway theater world of New Yorkork city um my first play that i did was at a theater on the lower east side called the la mama i know that place theater

yeah ellen stewart i was actually um god bless her soul man i was the last play that she produced and directed and wrote i was in that it was a um a city opera and it was called Tancredi and Armenia and it was about the war of the cultures in that part of the world at least and then I studied there for about a year or two and then I left and went to Harlem and I studied under the late great Tunde Samuels and he worked out of the National Black Theater, as we call it, NBT. And there was a young writer, director, her name is Judy Shepard King, and she had written this play called Endangered Species, and I got a part in that. And then third uh, my good friend and brother, uh, Ray Thomas, or a lot to, he bought his, he's from Philadelphia, shout out to Philly. And he bought his mentor and his theater company to New York city. Every Saturday, these men would either get on the train or they would pile up in cars and they would come to New York every Saturday and they would teach. And Mel Williams, he's the director of the company, and it's called Theater for a New Generation.

Every Saturday, man, we would come and we would have class, either at the Producers Club or any little black box in New York City, man. And we would, from 12 to 3, we would have a theater company, theater class, and then, you know, it would be a 10-week course that he would do, and then around the fourth or fifth week, he would start giving out, he would break us up into groups, into partners,

and he would give us scenes from a classic plays like Streetcar Named Desire, Ceremonies and Dark Old Men. He has like a litany of classic plays. He would take scenes. He would give us the different groups scenes. And at the end of the 10th week, the last two weeks, he put us on stage.

We would put up and he called it, the theater night would be called the night of scenes. And we'd sell tickets and get people to come in. And I did that for years man and then i took that and took that into the uh to the audition process man in hollywood and i started to book but then like i was saying earlier man the phones went dead like around 99 yeah um i couldn't i couldn't get a gig and so you know my mom god bless her man she she retired and she decided that you know sitting down wasn't for her and she opened up a daycare in the projects where we live and by 2001 she was she was blossoming like you know 70 something 70 year old woman with no education like like like you know really doing it and so what the daycare center got popular,

it got popular, man. And at her highlight, the kids, we kept up, we took them from one to five years old. So when they left us, they went to first grade. She, the, the, the kids that were leaving our daycare were on such, were at, were performing academically on such a high rate. We were the number one in the community in Flatbush. You were teaching? No, no, no, no, no. You know, after, like I was saying, when I couldn't get, when I stopped booking. Yeah.

And in 2000, my mom took all of us to the Bahamas, where she's from. Because, you know, that was the end of the world. The 2K was coming. The end of the world. The sky's going to fall. The sky's going to fall. You know, and my mom was like, yo, we going out? I want all my family together to be going home

and we're gonna rock out. And so at the New Year's dinner party, she offered me a job at the daycare because I was borrowing money to pay my rent from her every frigging month. And she said, you know, you might as well come work for me. I'm paying your rent, you might as well earn the money. I was like, yeah, Ma, you know,

not a bad idea. Things could be a lot worse. We got a family business in the community. Why not? So I did that for all of 2000 and then into 2001. She gave me a desk

and I coined myself her administrative assistant because she old school she had everything on in leisure books so you know i put it i computerized everything for you know yada yada yada yeah so um she gets give me something to do so so um oh i did that all of 2000 and then all of 2001 and as you know by september um you know 9-11 2001 that happened and um i slipped into a um it was dark it got real dark uh for me you know um i stood on my building and i saw the second plane hit with my naked eye like me and my cousin we watched the buildings drop you know and for like two weeks after that happened like the wind given on any given

sunday and depending on which way the wind would shift i could smell um the burning flesh still in the air yeah that it was like me a bad bro i was in astoria i watched the same thing in astoria from my roof and you know and yeah and then you that metal smell burning smell it lasted for weeks it was also the flesh yeah yeah that's what i i know what burning flesh smells like man i just like this is so anyway neither say i relapsed let's get that out there so um um so you know what was your thing man cocaine man you know i mean coke and alcohol yeah so um i relapsed and um i struggled for all of uh 2001 i mean for all for most of 2000 you know after 9-11 and um on october i was sitting in my apartment with my cousin and one of my homeboys, man. And, you know, we was getting high.

And the setting would be you turn the TV on, but you mute it. And then you blast the music. Right. And that's how you do it. Right. So. And then you're talking. You're talking to.

Yeah, we're talking shit. Yeah, exactly. So I think we're playing chess. You know, I get how I play chess. we're talking shit. Yeah, exactly. So I think we're playing chess. You know what I mean? Just to get how I play chess, right? Talk shit. So the TV was on, and I had it on HBO, Mark. And I looked at the screen, and it was an episode of Sopranos that I was in.

So I looked up. I was like, I had this out-of-body experience. I was like, what the fuck? I said, and I looked what I looked up. I was like, I had this like out of body experience. I was like, what the fuck? I said, I looked what I was doing. I said, man, there's something wrong with this picture. And so I asked my mom's man. I said, your mom. I said, I don't know if I could do this no more.

I said, I got this. I said, I feel like I should give this Hollywood shit one more shot. And she said, what you need? I said, I need you to lend me some money because I got to reinvent my package because I've been off the scene for two years. And now I think they're doing this new thing called a reel. You got to put a reel together. And I got to do new head shots, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So I got to hire people, ma. And she said, all right. She lent me the money. And this was in late October, early November. I did everything. And I sent it out. You sent it on drugs. That's good.

Not all of it. Hey. Hey, y'all. Keep it real, right? Not all of it. But I got what I needed to get done. And then I gave them out. I had a hit list of 10 names of people who I knew in the business that if I had any shot, I could get it from them.

And Queen Latifah, Shaquem Kapoor, Jimmy Roseman, Jackie Brown Carmen. I remember it was 10 names. And I sent out the new package. And I said, you know what? It's Christmas. And they're going to look at it. They're going to see that I'm back on the block and my phone's going to be ringing

off the hook. Give it the second, third week in January. It's going to be major. Right? Here we are February. Ain't nothing happening. And my mom's was like, where the fuck did you, what did you do with my money? And I was like, oh man, so, you know,

I slipped into a depression man you know like for real for real like you know i had to go see a doctor and he he prescribed me like paxil and i'm sitting there smoking weed and taking paxil and wondering why i don't feel better right like the fuck anyway that was in february and then in march my mother caught me man she's like yo come downstairs there's a fax for you and i went and i got the fax and you know what it was mark it was david simon down yes it was it was it actually was alexa fogel and it was the breakdown for omar devone little and that's when i knew this is real this is real real. Like, this is it. They offered it to you?

Well, no, I had to audition. Yeah. I had to audition. But once I got it, I'm saying, you know, I went to her office, she auditioned me. I think three days later, she called me telling me to be on the next Amtrak and report to Baltimore. Like, I was on the set for like a week before I even met David.

Like I, I had to like jump right in head, head first. And I never looked back. Thank God you'd done the research. Ah, yeah. Right.

Yeah. You joke, but that's, that's, um, that's for real. Yeah. I poured a lot of my pain into the character.

Oh, my man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a great character. It was one of the, you know, the best characters, that. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a great character. It was one of the,

you know, the best characters, that whole thing. I mean, I remember like, I didn't watch it in real time. I watched it all at once. So like I,

I watched it a couple of years after the fact, but I was in New York and I was doing a radio gig and I just would watch three or four episodes a day. Like I was on drugs, man. It was like the wire was my drug i would binge i would do like four or five episodes a day and i'd feel fucked up after but but your character was like every time omar came on you're like ah fucking omar man you're always happy i'm gonna tell you a secret though you want to know what the best character on that show was hands down

yeah it was the city of baltimore yes i promise you could like that city permeates it it i can't you had to be on those streets like you know we shot a lot of location yeah why it wasn't it wasn't a uh uh you know a cushy set type of a gig we were we was in them streets bro and i got to know the people i got to see the culture i got to feel the streets yeah you know and when i tell you that city is one of the most beautiful cities one of the most beautiful gems in this country, and we don't know it. But Baltimore, the city of Baltimore, is the number one character.

The people and the energy and the spirit of that city is the number one character on the wire. And Simon loves that city. He still lives there. Born and bred, still there. Yeah, I interviewed that guy. He's a smart guy. crazy motherfucker that's my big bro yeah i thought obviously i'm not alone in thinking that was an amazing uh show but it's

just all the performances were deep man you know and and i just work with andre i'm friends with andre uh royal yeah come on man yeah come on man we just did a movie a month ago i know i know what it is i mean we stay in contact man i know exactly which which parts you're talking about oh my god i can't remember the name but i know to leslie it's called it's the name go yeah but uh but i can't imagine you two getting together that would i would i would have to sit that one out and just watch just to watch you guys talk we've been talking about that me him and sonia yeah sonia and i have been talking about um developing sonia sonia song who played keema gregs oh okay right yeah us three we three musketeers and she and i we both have full working on a knowledge that you

must know now too andre roy was special yes he different yeah he he he he ain't he far from regular like we all cute or we all of us is cute but but andre royal was special and like you gotta if you know him then you know i'm talking about i ain't got time to go into why we know this but you you and i know why i say he's special he'll go there man straight different bro yeah he says like if you know he says with such vernacular and such effortlessness what most of us are thinking and it's not it's not tacky it's not offensive he just has this way of spitting that shit that's on all of our minds but none of us have the balls to say and he does it with such a freedom that you just have to you'd be like you just don't like what do you what do

you do it's like anyway yeah no he's got there's a there's a like a real kind of honest vulnerability there that he speaks from perfect yes right and and you just got to be like what the fuck you look at you you gotta love him you just gotta love him the fuck? You got to love him. You just got to love him. That's true. You have to love him, man. Or you hate him, but you ain't going to like him. You're either going to love him or you're going to hate him.

If you hate him, you got problems. You got fucking problems, my dude. So we've been working on a project that will highlight Dre, man. And if I could be a – Sonia and I, we talk about that often. We got to create something for our brother because that's how much we feel he's just that special to us. Yeah, and I think also it's a weird place for him

because he should be in everything, but I don't know how much is coming to him. And I don't know if people really know how to use i don't know if he's uh if he if people really know how to use him you know because if they did come on man you think you already know what that is that's about that's another that's a whole nother conversation that you know i'm not going to go down that road right now because you know i'm tired of waiting for they you know i'm at the point now where you know it's time for me to build build my own table it's time for me to build my own table. It's time for us to build our own table. Sure.

You're going to start a production company? That's already done. It's called Freedom Productions. Don't peace, free your dome. Freedom Productions. And we're housed in the Navy Yard here in Brooklyn. And that ship has sailed. And this pandemic has humbled us.

Yeah. And it has leveled the playing field massively. And if it's ever time to shoot your shot, I believe it's now. Yeah. You know, you're right. They don't know what to do with it. They barely know what the fuck to do with me. You know what I mean?

So, you know, it's time for us to um to to lift each other up now do you ever think about you ever think about theater anymore absolutely absolutely me and my brother the same gentleman that introduced me to theater uh thomas from philadelphia he and i was talking the other day man and um you know we're working on this idea about a traveling theater. Just take it. We come with a story and travel. The idea of traveling theater and taking it to

neighborhoods that normally would not be exposed to a plane and what that would look like. Someday when we can go back outside. Yeah, yeah. I can someday when we, when we can go back outside, we can. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I can't congregate right now, but you know, yeah, we don't, we definitely talking about that, man. It must've been interesting. Like La Mama, because like, that's some weird shit sometimes. And you know what the, you know, what's the love about theater too? Um, there's no mistakes. There's no cut and action.

You have, you know, it forces us to use everything. Yeah. You got to stay in the moment. It forces me to stay in the moment. Like, I remember when I first started, when I first started coming around, because of my theater training, I memorized everybody's lines. In fact, I used to write, I would only write my lines and not memorize them. lines and not memorize them i would just write them down but i would memorize your lines other actors lines because i needed to stay in that moment and what i did with my my dialogue i would tell myself well mike if i understand the world and what these what the other characters are

saying where they're coming from my lines will be common sense there'll be logic i don't have to remember remember my line it'll come to me because it's logic oh and then even if like and then once what you so then you know the intention you know bingo right bingo and so theater taught me that in theater also taught me to because it taught me to know the intention if you switched it up because another thing about andre royal he he also comes from the theater background same the same circuit that I was running and Dre was running and we didn't know each other at the time yeah um um we actually did the same play and didn't know each other at the time with Yolanda

Ross we played three different men in her life and she was like marrying with blah blah so so Dre was notorious for switching it up and the line was like yeah I gotta go home and walk my dog Dre be like yeah yeah I gotta go feed my cat and you gotta like you know and theater taught me no matter how many times

how many nights we do it if I mess around and stop listening to you and waiting for you to shut up so I can say my line, that leaves a, I could get tripped with an actor like Andre who might, you know, he might throw you a nugget. And if you're not in a position to catch it,

you're going to trip. It'll knock you in the head. Because, you know, so theater taught me those things, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to listen. Got to trip. They'll knock you in the head. So theater taught me those things, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to listen. Got to listen. Yes, sir. Yeah.

So you feel better. Now, when you did The Wire, were you high? I didn't get high the whole first season of The Wire. I had wanted to make such a good impression on Davidid and nina and ed i decided you know i stopped smoking weed i wasn't getting high nothing and ironically i picked up cigarettes i said you know because i said i can you know cigarettes don't get me high it'll it'll it'll feed my oral fixation that's a tough one i started yeah but i went to close like you know the jar rooms yeah yeah i started there no and so um the whole first thing i didn't get high and then you know and then they made me a

series regular on season two yeah and um you know as we all know season two is about the docs so what happened again uh i don't mind became my idle mind became the devil's workshop. I'm in Baltimore. I'm already partying, going to clubs and things of that nature. And I have all this time on my hands. I don't have the responsibility that you can't get fucked up because you got to be at work tomorrow. There were like weeks,

a week or days, chunks of time in between. So you got to play some chess. And I ended up picking up in season two. But, you know, I really, man, the cast of The Wire, Wendell Pierce, Sonia, Andre. Wendell's the best.

Seth, Gilliam, Dom Lombardozzi. These men and women, man, they would come grab me up. They never let me slip too far between the cracks, man. And we became a family. They became my family on season two, I should say. And that still holds true to this day. That's beautiful. And I can't, in terms of influences,

to have Andre on one side and Wendell on the other, you got the full spectrum, man. You know, you've got the raw honesty, and you got the thinky stuff. You know what I mean? Wendell is like an oracle. Yeah. You know.

A lot of heart. A lot of heart, and he got a lot of fight in him. Don't let that, don't let those reading glasses and that three-piece suit fool you with that necktie. Wendell will fuck you up. And he comes, that's the New, Wendell will fuck you up. And he comes. That's a New Orleans dude through and through, man.

And he's educated. And he's not afraid. You know, like he, I take, he drops jewels. He's full of wisdom. Early on in the career, man, Wendell sat me down. down forget what he's talking about

but he says you know what michael he said this business is about the work you do the people you meet and the relationships that you build and i never forgot that yeah it kept me humble kept me focused on what what's important about being in this this land of make-believe that we that we live in yeah yeah kept me yeah so that that's the kind of thing that windows but he'll also he'll be right beside you the bar throwing him back he has you know you know a lot of people don't know window you look at him and you perceive him a certain way and you miss the party you will miss the party we're looking at his suit and tie yeah i've talked to him he's a great guy so when you did uh the when you did the boardwalk empire man how do you feel

about that time travel business you like you like going to different time you know um i've i was talking to a good friend of mine and he he kind of um he kind of hit me, you know, put my attention to what you just said. Yeah. Yes, the answer, first off, is yes, I do love going back in time. I decided to use those stories, whether it was Chucky White on Bobak Empire or Jack G in Bessie opposite Queen Latifah or if it was Montrose Freeman in Lovecraft Country, I keep there is something that my

friend Gano, he was telling me, he said, yo Mike, he said, have you noticed the ancestors keep bringing you back using you to tell their story and it's not just all over the place. I'm always being asked to go to the 1920s, the era that my father was born in.

And my good friend, like I say, he was talking. He was like, you know, we do, you know, I work with my ancestors, man. I acknowledge them on a daily basis. And he hit me to that just recently so yes i do i also take that the opportunity to go back in time and tell the stories of my ancestors i i also wear that just as much with a badge of honor and a huge responsibility to me as well is your uh your folks still around my father's deceased my mom's still alive man she

just made 93 this past december still swinging that cane trying to knock me out come here i knock you out all right mom she would put that close by no man we got her out of the city out of state you know we um got her out of new york You know, we got her out of New York, you know, 93. She did her bit at 50 some odd years in the projects. You know, she she managed to save her. And let me go on record. She she bought her own house cash from that daycare, you know. And yeah, man, it took some nudging because she was so comfortable, you know, 50, almost 60 years in one apartment, in one building, in one community.

That's New York, man. Yeah, in Brooklyn, right, in Vanderveer. And, you know, like around 70, right after her 75th birthday, man, we took some nudging, but she said, ah, what the hell, okay, I'll go. So she's out of state now, but she's doing fine. She's happy. Very happy. You're happy? Yes, I am, man. I'm grateful.

You already know. I'm grateful. I ain't got nothing to complain about, man. We here. You're cooking. You got Rachel Ray. Yeah, Rachel Ray. I'm going to miss her already for this one. I'll catch her recipe tomorrow. Have you ever met her?

Yes, actually, I did, man. She interviewed me when I was doing this show called Happen Leonard. Did she know you were such a big fan? Well, after the show went off, yes, she found out because I was not about to leave.

I said, yo, Rachel, I said, you know, there's no way I'm leaving this studio without you making me a hamburger. You got to make me the special Rachel Ray burger. You know, with the three different kinds of meats, I need that in my life. She looked at me and she chuckled. She's like, this motherfucker. But she went to the set kitchen because

there's a real kitchen on that set yeah that's all real she went in the back and 20 minutes later man i had a i had an authentic you know rachel ray cheeseburger i could have died with the heaven well i'm glad that i'm glad that happened for you. All right, man. It was good talking to you. And I love the movie. I love your work. And, you know, this is like going to a meeting.

I feel better. Thank you. Same here, brother. Thank you, man. Okay, pal. Take it easy. Bye-bye. That's it. That's our show.

The movie is Body Brokers. And that's available now to buy or rent on on-demand platforms like iTunes, Prime Video, and more. Let's play some guitar. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey and lafonda and Cat Angels Everywhere. Cat Angels Everywhere. Cat Angels Everywhere. Cat Angels Everywhere. Cat Angels everywhere. Get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls?

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find

the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative.