WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1206 - Jake Gyllenhaal

Episode Date: March 4, 2021

Jake Gyllenhaal knows he has a great job as a celebrated film actor. But the thing that brings him true joy is bursting into song as part of a stage musical. Jake talks with Marc about his love of theater, which ended up landing him three Tony Award nominations this year, one for acting and two for producing. They also get into why Broadway needs to evolve when it returns, why Jake was in awe of Heath Ledger, and why he was completely surprised by Marc after this episode started. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? How's everybody doing are you okay are you be honest with me because i am definitely not okay i mean i'm not

really bad but i'm not okay i've had enough of this shit i'm done with it how many times have i said this over the last year when When is the year anniversary of lockdown? Soon, right? Any day now. God damn it, I want a vaccine. Look, today on the show, I talked to Jake Gyllenhaal. You know him from Donnie Darko, Brokeback Mountain, Nightcrawler. He's been doing more stage acting of of late and he's nominated for three

tony awards this year great actor that kid can i call him a kid i think he's young enough he's younger than me enough for me to call him a kid i had no idea what to expect to never do i never do and it turns out he didn't know what to expect out of me either. And it was a nice conversation. He's a nice fella, that Jake Gyllenhaal. Also, I'd like to give you a heads up. Just today, and I'm recording this yesterday, I talked to Eddie Murphy. Eddie Murphy for an hour. I had Eddie Murphy's face right in front of

mine on screen for an hour. And we hashed it out. We did the comic talk thing. We talked about the old days. We talked about doing the standup. We talked about prior. We talked about the movies. We talked about being a star. We took, we did the talk, and eddie murphy and i got a beautiful big laugh out of him right out of the gate it's it's interesting with the zoom and just in general actually that's that's that's that's a good point mark why don't you talk about it it's interesting because before the plague when when people would come to my house, which is what was required of them to do the show, was to come to my house, this house and the old house,

is that I'd have that moment where I'd answer the door, I'd get there if they came with people, I'd give them a soda or water or coffee or tea, let them use the restroom, have a little chit-chat, not too much, but sort of get grounded or get connected in the way the two humans get connected for the five to ten minutes before we get out here and get on the mic. So there's a lot of sort of a small talk and, hey, how are you? And what's going on? What was the drive like?

What kind of shoes are those? Where are you at with that thing? Everything all right? A little of that. So there's some ice breakage going on. You ease into the conversation out here. That's how it was in the old days. But now with Zoom, it's a little tricky

because, you know, I get on and we make sure the tech is working all right. There's a few bits of chit-chat as people get set up, but usually you're kind of going in cold and you don't know what the connection is going to hinge on or whether there's going to be a connection or whether things are going to start cooking or whether things are going to, like, just be kind of a trial.

All that shit aside, when I'm doing the Zoom, you know, I got to figure out how to get in pretty quick. And I got to be honest with you, it was very rewarding when Eddie Murphy got on and I took a shot at where he was sitting. And man, big laugh from Eddie. And it was exciting. But more than getting the laugh as a comic, which is great, it was that, okay, so now we can have this conversation. You know, he knows I can do that.

I'm not afraid. I'm a comedian. I made him laugh. And now he's like popped him open and here we go broke the ice huh

that's what that's what that's what you use comedy for sometimes remember you marginally funny people maybe tell say a little funny thing got a little funny thing to say

to break the ice a little something got a little bit you do to break the ice do you? But you know what's amazing about this downtime, about this plague time, about all the fucking, I'm fortunate that I'm not freaking out about money.

I'm not freaking out about my health. I'm sad, but some things are in place. But you know what's amazing? Is that with all, even though i'm working i'm busy but uh i'll tell you i'm still putting stuff off i mean what is it almost been a year i got shit in my house that i need to do and i want to do you know minor shit little things organizing rooms going through shit putting a thing up on the wall doing doing that thing that needs to be done outside getting that thing done in the garage whatever the fuck it is there's still a bunch of

shit that i am putting off how is that even fucking possible and then i'm going to get through a year of this and we're going to get back to some semblance of, you know, social engagement of being able to go do things. And I'm going to say, like, God damn it. Why didn't I get that done? Right. Why didn't I get my office fucking set up at my house? Why didn't I get rid of all that shit? Why didn't I get rid of those books?

Why didn't I get that switch put in the wall? Why didn't I fucking fix that goddamn thing in the garage I'm gonna get through a year of this and still have shit I haven't done why didn't I read all of those books that I have been putting off reading my entire life why didn't I fucking learn how to how to play chess why didn't I figure out how to become a baker? Why did I not create a rocket that we could all go up in and travel to outer space together in? Why didn't I cure COVID on my own? Why didn't I make a movie? Why didn't I write that script?

How come my novel's not finished? What have I got to show for myself? I have a few pages and a small notebook i wrote a song i talked to some talented people i processed my shit but i did not learn how to bake a bread many people did there's just some shit i'm still putting off and then you know what i'm gonna go ahead and beat the shit out of myself for that you know why because that's what i do that's part of my job what do you do i'm a clown and i kick my own ass you why didn't i why didn't i learn tai chi during lockdown what why didn't i read gravity's rainbow

during lockdown why why didn't i buy new sheets why is that light bulb still out for a year fucking hell man i think i'm getting a kitten it seems like we're moving towards kittenness for buster i'm saying it's for Buster what if Buster doesn't like it you know I mean Buster's kind of a bruiser he's kind of a bully that fucking cat but I've decided that I should have two cats primarily for him to you know like I'm so I can't tell you man projecting onto pets is especially now that I'm so, I can't tell you, man, projecting onto pets is, especially now that I'm basically alone in the house, just sitting there looking at him like, what, you sad, buddy? Where you at? You bummed out?

Are you mad at yourself that you didn't read Gravity's Rainbow during lockdown? Are you pissed off that you didn't finish that, you know, scratching up that fucking couch? There's time man are you are you mad that you've you've got a like a profound catnip problem and you're fucking half out of it all the time does that bother you are you sick do you need me to take you in i have project i i can't tell you how many times in my life i've taken cats to vets where there's nothing fucking wrong but what what i think there's i remember bringing monkey to the vet once cause I decided he wasn't shitting and I brought him to the emergency vet cause I decided it was problematic and he was going to somehow die from not shitting.

And I brought him there. And as soon as they got him out of that cage and they put him on a table, he shit all over everything. So I guess taking him to the vet worked um i'm it cost me probably two hundred dollars for him to shit all over the vet but i've decided that buster needs a friend and i'm i've got one lined up that i think i'm going to call mingus why didn't i get a kitten during lockdown it might happen i had dreams about lynn the other night, and they come and go, but I'm trying to relish in them and enjoy them as opposed to wake up sad. It's a challenge, but it is always good to see her. So Jake Gyllenhaal is nominated

for three Tony Awards this year, one for Best Actor in a Play for his performance in Seawall, A Life, but he's also nominated as the producer of seawall a life and also slave play which are both up for best play this is what he's doing aside from starring in films aside from being a movie star he's a theatrical producer and stage actor and i I talked to him. And we got to know each other. This is me and Jake Gyllenhaal. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance.

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My one issue is I'm going to take some very long pauses for dramatic intent and emphasis and if you cut those fucking pauses man no man because they're just going to be it's going to be a whole interview full of long pauses i just want so please just don't cut them every answer is going to be an ellipses filled thing for you. Just wait. You're going to be able to take a nap through most of it. So this is going to be cruise control for you, Mark. Yeah, well, let me get comfortable. I got a pillow.

I just, you know, look, man, if you want to, you can edit this later. You know, let us know if the pauses weren't long enough, if you want Brendan to lengthen a pause. You know, I was talking to uh jody foster about you know fincher i talked to him for like two hours and uh and like an hour or two after he talked to me he's like yeah it wasn't good enough i you know maybe don't put it out like uh i feel like i could do better but uh

i swear to god man so i'm sitting on this fucking Fincher interview with the assumption that someday we'll continue the conversation. And that was years ago. You're not going to continue it. You're going to redo it. I guess. You're just going to experience the exact same thing all over again. I just shot a movie on film and we did not have the luxury of takes why did you do that i don't know man because i look it was the middle of covid some director wanted me he really

wanted me to do this role and he had 19 days to shoot a feature and he was shooting on film so it was like oh my gosh yeah yeah i mean you had to yeah maybe one to three takes that's it well there is something to that i will say there is something to like to knowing there is a finite amount yeah with which they can actually record what you've done and there's like a i think that that anxiety is i'm saying anxiety i i think it's sort of it feels it's exciting you know it is you gotta show up you gotta do it you know when you have it in your brain it's like it's not even to show up you got to do it you know when you have it in your brain it's like it's not even on video and you can just do a million you're sort of like

can we just do that again just for me thanks totally totally no problem i i do think it had i think i think the digital age as extraordinary as it is has has led to you know kind of a bit of wandering you know yeah well you also like a bit of um it's it's a certain type of productive uh laziness almost like you know you you can just keep trying you know even half-assing until you stumble on something i think it's sort of fucked up writing too because i don't know maybe maybe i'm being a stickler but the idea of like cutting and pasting, you know, no one had that. The like major novels were written with whiteout, you know? I mean, my mother is a writer and I remember being on her typewriter as a child. And one of

the things I love to do was type nonsense and then white it out. That's what I did. I would just type a bunch of different letters and then I would decide to just sort of erase half of them. Whiteout was the coolest thing on a typewriter for a long time. And it was probably one of those Selectrics that had the built-in Whiteout thing? Oh yeah, only the best of the best. But that's a weird thing though because when you think about shooting on film it's like you've really got to show up all in and ready for work. I'm not saying that you don't usually, but there's more at stake

in the process of it. and i think that when you wrote and you knew you had to white stuff out or if you wanted to rewrite a page you had to rewrite a page you know there was a moment where you when you realized you had misspelled yeah you know that was a moment that was a legit moment yeah now it's just taken away from you immediately yeah you don't even know you've misspelled yeah there's this false sense of ego while you're writing you know you write and all of a sudden it's auto correct and then when it really comes down to i don't even know if i i know how to handwrite anymore i don't know if i know how to like i'm having trouble with words i could not fucking figure out how to spell sociable the other day. Like, I really could not figure it out.

I didn't understand. Sociable, right? Right. Basically. There's no L in it. And I was like, and it really stumped me. And I felt like, why am I, do I have Alzheimer's or is it just a product of my time? Well, yes.

I mean, I think it's a product of the time. I'm going to tell you that. I'm going to diagnose you. I appreciate that. Is this a medical call? This is good. You want to, I have some other problems. You want to make me feel better about some other shit?

Isn't that sort of what a podcast is about? Yes. It's about making me feel better, Jake. I appreciate you showing up to do this. No problem. Do you have allergies? Yes. Are they fucking with you now?

Not really. Why? Do I sound stuffy? No, I think I have allergies, but I haven't been diagnosed. I was looking for a little diagnosis again. Yeah, no, I'm definitely allergic to dust. Oh, dust, but not like seasonal? And cats.

Cats? Yeah, yeah, yeah, seasonal too. Yes, yes. My grandfather was asthmatic and had a lot of allergies. I think I've, I'm not asthmatic, but I definitely have. Is that a genetic thing? Yeah, I think so. It is.

I also believe it's epigenetic. We could get into that. Okay. Epigenetic means learned? You learned your allergies? What is epigenetic? Sort of, sort of. I don't, don't, please.

Just, this is where, this is where it really goes off the rails. But I, it's, it is, it is sort of that uh i believe i guess i should say that you can have allergies and i think you can sort of get through them maybe but i i'm not a really i i haven't yet gotten through mine you know like i think they're resolvable through oh through sort of focus maybe maybe analysis. Meditation. Yes. Mindfulness. Yes.

Some of them. No, they go away. The guy that was just on, my producer, Brendan, he had a peanut allergy all his life. And it went away. It's gone? Yeah. And we were producing radio back in the day when it happened. And we would do a segment of him eating things with peanuts in it for the first time in his life.

Oh, my God. It's the best thing in the life. Oh, my God. It's the best thing in the world. And does he enjoy peanuts now? Yeah, I mean, I think so. How could you not? Well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, maybe you're allergic to it and then you taste it and you don't like it.

I don't know. I think he had a good time. I think, I mean, maybe he'll message me and we'll get confirmation. But can you imagine eating a Snickers bar for the first time as an adult? Oh, my God. It's the best thing in the world. I know. But it's not as good as when you had it when you were a kid. There's no –

I guess so. My mom was kind of weird about sweets. Same with mine. Oh, he – Brendan just says – He texted me, Love peanuts. I eat peanut butter every day.

Every day. With a vengeance. I want to talk to Brendan about that. About peanuts? That's in our second version of this. When you tell me I can't run this one and you'd rather have Brendan involved with the next one? You can't run this one, Mark.

Is that a real home that you're in? It doesn't seem there's as much decor there. I'm staying in a home. I'm staying in a home. I'm staying in a home. Right now, I'm filming a movie, actually. Oh, really? This is not my home. Oh, you're doing it with the COVID protocol.

Zone 1, Zone 2, mask up. It's intense, right? Zone A, Zone B. Yeah, Zone A, Zone B. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it gets a little sloppy after a while, doesn't it? You're like, are we doing it or are we not doing it? I mean, it's weird.

Mask on? As an actor in it, it does get confusing. It depends on also the process. If you're in it and you have your mask off and then there's a little space between takes, it's very hard. I've been having difficulty because my wardrobe, and this is not like some fantasy world I'm in.

It has no pockets. Normally, you just take your mask off. You put it in your pocket. Oh, right. Yeah. And you take it back on. You put it back. You take it out of your pocket.

Yeah, right. Yeah. But I have no pockets. Right. So I've just been finding places to put the mask. Yeah, because I don't want to waste masks. You know, I mean. You just stash them, you know, with your sides.

You know, put it. No, but then that's litter. That's, you're like, you just stash them you know with your sides you know put it no but then that's lit that's you're like you're you you could you're you're littering it's i wouldn't be able to keep track you know where your sides go i i mean i well don't you don't you ever have the mini sides that you just stick in the drawer when you're at the desk no i know my lines top to bottom do you always no i don't that's not true but don't you use the big sides or the mini sides? You got to use the mini sides, right? I am actually, I have terrible eyesight.

Oh, so you're a big sides guy? I'm a big sides guy. And I also find they're better when you're in a rough spot to refer to quickly. Mini sides are hard to refer to. You're like, wait, where are we? What number? What number? But it's also, it's like you're searching through

little dots. For me, it looks like just little dots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've got to mark them up. The actual font that I can see. And now they're weird with sides, too. They've got to be in a bag. They've got to be yours. Really? Yeah. I'll have my own side. I like to mark my sides

with the highlighter. I still do that. You still highlight? Of course I do. Hold on a second. There's this one. Hold on a second. Oh, wow. This is, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Do you use all different colors on one script? Well, I found these ones, and what I found really great about them, I do use different colors. But what I thought was, this is obviously a podcast. I don't know if you can see this, but it's called a clear view, so you can see the word as you – Oh, it's got a little magnifying glass in the actual – No, no, no, no. It's just clear.

Oh, I see. So you can see the words as you highlight them. A little lens within the point of the marker. What's this movie, man? What have we come to? Is that the name of the marker what's this movie man what have we come to is that the name of the movie the movie is i mean it's called it's called ambulance ah and you're and what how do i am i can i pitch this i don't know are you allowed to is it who's directing it sir michael bay oh that's that's big. A lot of action? Is it an action ambulance movie?

Yes. Does the ambulance flip and turn many times? Well, it definitely turns. It's not a movie where the ambulance just goes straight the whole time. Is there a chase, though? A chase where it rolls? I mean, it never rolls. No, it doesn't ever is there a chase though a chase where it rolls i mean it never rolls no it doesn't ever roll i i mean i well yeah i don't want to spoil it yeah there's some big that's some plot that's a plot point but it's called an ambulance so i think it's safe to go ahead and say there's it involves an ambulance and you wait no it's called ambulance

not an ambulance which would be an amazing title for something. It's called Anambulance. Yeah, Anambulance. And you never leave the ambulance. It's just the back of an ambulance. It's like a Pinter play, but it's in the back of an ambulance. Yeah, just yelling men in the back of an ambulance. I mean, sort of. It's one woman, two guys, and that's what it is.

Did you ever do any Pinter plays? Never. I've never done a Pinter play. Holy shit, man. Have you ever do any Pinter plays? Never. I've never done a Pinter play. Holy shit, man. Have you seen The Homecoming? No. Oh, my God. It's just bile, man.

It is like a full spectrum of toxic maleness from another time. And it's English toxic maleness. Well, there are many playwrights that you could go through and claim that. Sure. Pinter definitely has his share. You are now nominated in a couple different categories for theater.

You're like a bonafide theater guy now, for real. You get to claim that? get to i'm gonna say it right now i'm probably gonna say it again and again when i introduce you bonafide theater guy jake jill and no but i mean you're up for producing and you're up for acting i mean and the thing that you produced was like some real kind of provocative, ballsy art that must have taken, I mean, to do slave play. What was the process of choosing to produce that, getting involved with that? Because it made a lot of waves,

and it's so exciting to know that that kind of theater, not only is it being done, but it was popular. Well, it was simple. I saw it off-Broadway. Yeah. It was extraordinary. I saw it off Broadway. Yeah.

It was extraordinary. And, you know, I think my producing partner and I, her name is Reva Markert. We just, you know, one of the things that I feel is like theater is my love. It has been since I was a little kid. And it, you know, I not only, I mean, you can talk to pretty much any actor. Yeah. Who even as a child was at first was performing on the stage, you know, I not only, I mean, you can talk to pretty much any actor. Yeah. Who even as a child was at first was performing on the stage, you know? Yeah.

So. Is that what you were? You started on stage? Not professionally. I didn't. But yes. Like children's theater? Yeah.

I was doing everything I was doing had when I was a kid was like, I did children's theater. Yes. Here in LA? Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Los Angeles. Yeah. And there was like a children's theater up? I grew up in Los Angeles, yeah. And there was like a Children's Theater, because I've talked to a lot of actors that did that.

I mean, some Children's Theaters were really kind of like the real deal. I mean, you worked, you learned, you did things. I mean, I don't know why, but I grew up, I was always sort of taught by my family and whatever it was that you chose to do, it had to have sort of a craft. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, surprise.

You were taught that? Because your dad was a director, right? A director. My mother is a writer. So they were big on learning the thing. Well, I think most of all they were just my mother in particular both of them were just education of any kind was very important oh yeah yeah you know knowing the history of whatever it was you were doing and um learning from the classics and knowing what came before

you you know really so that yeah i mean i i don't know. That to me was, that was always sort of part of it for us. But when you grew up though, you thought about the stage more than you thought about, you know, film? Because I mean, you were doing both, I guess. You did film pretty early. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how much I was thinking about the medium at a certain age. You weren't like, at seven age you weren't like at seven you weren't saying like i just want to do theater like gratefully i wasn't one of those kids yes but i but i i just knew i had it gave me so much joy yeah yeah oh yeah and and i also knew like i sort of i was super stimulated by the the thrill and the the intensity of yeah oh yeah of an

audience to me the live audience yeah yeah and and and it didn't though it made me nervous it did it also it was something else it's sort of something inexplicable i can't figure i even to this day i can't really explain you know it is such a crazy craft i mean you know to to to somehow enjoy being in a spotlight where you can see nothing you know and sort sort of see the other actor you're working with. Right. And like, and have an audience responding this in this blackness, like, yeah, where you can't even, you know, that that sort of thing isn't there. It's not for the faint of heart. And it's a very odd process. It's just so strange. And to actually enjoy something

like that, it makes you a very odd person. Yeah. Well, it's so heightened, you know, that whole sort of being on stage with other actors. And well, yeah, I mean, I guess it is. Most people it scares the shit out of. But you can also see just in the way you explained it, how it would be completely addicting and enchanting. Like if you've got the thing for it, then, you know, why would you ever want to stop doing that? Well, it's interpreting something great. I don't think there's anything better. I mean, there's, you know, the only time that I've ever felt oddly comfortable, uh,

was when I had music underneath me, you know, when I had a downbeat, I did like, I remember doing a concert at city center of, um, Sunday in the Park with George, the show that I did, that we eventually did on Broadway. But, and you know, when you're doing this concert at City Center, they're readings basically where you rehearse for four days and then you have the script in front of you sometimes.

You know, half your life, it's one of those nightmare dreams. You know, half your lines, basically. And you have the script with you. And I remember not being nervous before i went out in front of like 5 000 people at city center and i that made me freak out oh really you know just sort of being like i feel comfortable this is odd i i don't know what's going on and how did it go you shouldn't feel comfortable it was great i mean we took the show to broadway so it went well so that was a big musical and musicals are this whole other thing i i like

musicals i don't go to a lot of musicals i've never been in a musical but anytime there are people singing and dancing i get moved to tears even if it's not sad i just i don't know why there's just such output a human output vulnerability because it's i it's brave yeah it's brave to be that vulnerable yeah exactly we exactly. We kind of all I mean, not all of us, but I I'm so desperate to try and be open, even though most of the time, you know, I'm a pain. You know, I so want to be that when you're sitting in the dark and you're watching somebody be just so vulnerable and open. It's just it's inspiring and it's really moving. open it's just it's inspiring and it's really moving and i you know it's also a you can feel the community i don't know how you think about it but you can feel the community of particularly musical theater there's this such a deep support when i did when i was in doing um that show that

i was talking about before you know we had so many swings you know as as we moved into like the the actors who come in and out and on stage when you're doing a play yeah with no music right you have understudies but very rarely do they come out yeah right when you're doing a broadway musical people are interchanging parts constantly yeah i mean because there are other factors there's like there's voice there's dance someone's injured something happens you know and so they're the the level of skill it takes you know people know three or four parts at a time where they're playing one other part and then one night someone comes in and they're playing the other part you know and someone else has moved in for them and the right before the show everyone is so loving and supportive

of the people who are coming in to play these parts. Yeah. They are just buoyed up by the cast. I didn't experience that as much in plays. Like straight actors don't have the same kind of like just full hearted. Like I'm going to give you everything tonight because music does something to people. Yeah. Because it's the collaboration is literally you're singing at the same time. You're engaged in the same piece of music. Unless you can look at a whole play as a singular piece, I think most actors in plays, depending on what their character is, are kind of selfish animals.

And you're just looking for that. You just want to be present for the other people, the other actors in your moments. But I would imagine with singing, it's sort of like we're singing. There's none of that. Obviously, we're present. But I think silence has a lot to do with it too. With musicals? Well, what you notice, I feel like when you do a play, is that you can hear the audience so much more clearly.

You can hear when a cell phone goes off. You can hear when somebody's doing something. The coughing guy. Oh, yeah. When you're doing a musical, you can't hear any of that stuff. Oh, yeah. Like unless there's a sort of like an ebb in the music. Right.

You can't hear any of that stuff. Yeah. So there's a sense of when an understudy comes on to play a role in a moment. There's a sense of when an understudy comes on to play a role in a moment, and when I've had to cover something for someone, there's this silence that's never-ending. There's no music on either side. It's just you with lines you kind of know.

You know? Right. You know? Yeah. I don't know. And I guess other people would be more scared of a downbeat and music playing and a 22-piece orchestra behind them, but I think the silence is actually more terrifying. No, silence especially if you don't in your brain oh yeah and in that moment where you're like i can fuck up okay where you just want to disappear or cry you're yeah but

then if you cry everyone's like oh that was amazing i know it wasn't in the play and had nothing to do with anything but you really what a choice what a choice yeah what a choice thank you thank you yeah it was a choice because i didn't know what the lines were and i was truly sad in that moment so so that's interesting to me that you find you think of theater as being you know sort of part of your dna from when you were a kid so when you're put in a position to be able to produce things, you know, you connect with it directly like that. Well, yeah, the company that I started, I guess it's like, I don't know, six or seven years ago now, we started to produce the things that I was in. It was just such a wonderful process. And so then we started thinking, well, it was just such a wonderful process. And so then we started thinking, well, let's find artists that we love and want to support and try and bring their stories to the stage and then bring those

stories, if they're already on stage, to a larger audience. And that was really the goal with Slave Play was this, there was this incredible piece of work. It was challenging. It was provocative. And I thought, you know, when I finally met with Jeremy O'Harris, who wrote it, you know, his, his goal was to bring a story like that to a larger audience and to do it in a way that was authentic and his own. And, you know, the way I look at theater, particularly Broadway is there's a kind of, I don't know, there's, there's, there's, there's a way in which it's always been done and that's beautiful, but we're a much younger company. We're, we're pretty ambitious and we just wanted to break it open. You know, you have a certain number of theaters, there's a set schedule all the time, you know, the same kind of five or six producers are putting things in yeah at different

times and i was just thinking what i'd love to mix it up and be a part of things that do and when i saw slave play i said maybe we can help them and jeremy was like i would love that you know it just went along with the spirit of his show to have a a younger group of producers, you know, bring it there. So that was slave play. And I just, it just shocked me and hit me in, in a way that I, I want theater to do. I mean, I remember walking out of the show for the first time and thinking, this is why I go to the theater. And I haven't felt that in a long time. This one sounds like one of those things where, you know, there's provocative is one thing, but something that kind of pushes buttons to the point of being controversial

is not something you necessarily see on Broadway. Yeah. I mean, you're dealing with race, you're dealing with sex, you're dealing with relationships and all in one thing for me about, right. Well, when you're dealing with you know i remember when i saw fun home for instance do you see fun home the shows i remember when i saw fun home at the public theater which is an incredible musical and i remember not knowing anything about actually allison blackfield's based on a graphic novel and i remember i didn't i didn't really know her work at the time and i walked in the public theater and I saw this piece. And I walked in sort of hesitantly.

I was alone. I was told to go see it by a friend who said it was wonderful. And I was sort of unsure the first five minutes. And then after the first five minutes, I ended up sort of weeping through the entire show all the way home. And the show is about a gay female cartoonist whose father was gay and who never came out and ends up killing himself. And she ends up telling a story about her own journey through all those same questions through him. Now, when you hear that, you go, you know, how is that fully relatable to a wider audience? you know, how is that fully relatable to a wider audience? It was all about family.

Yeah. And all about the secrets that we hold from each other, the fear we have within our families. Yeah. Not just the secrets of sexuality or whatever it might be. Right. The secrets that we just, the ones that feel so big to us, but would be so small to other people. That when you told someone else, they go, what the hell? What's the big deal? Just tell your dad.

Just, you know, whatever it might be. And it hit me so deeply in my heart. And I felt that way about Slave Play. That somehow I, when I watched it for the first time, I thought, I have so much to learn. I see the world in a particular way because of my position. And it was just, it cracked me open. And yeah, so when you say it's not just provocative, when I say provocative, I mean that. I mean, it like knocked at my heart and

it made me say like, Hey, you got a lot of shit wrong here, you know? And also you're on the right track, you know, kind of, there was a, there was a thing about it that I wanted other people to feel. I, I, I, I hoped other people would feel. And, and, and as a producer, I think that when you get that feeling, like you do as an actor, where you watch a performance and you're envious, you wish you were in that show. It's the same thing. It's like you see the show and you go, I want to be a part of this. How can I be a part of this? I was just lucky enough to get in a space where I could. And the one you acted in, Seawall, A Life, I watched a bit of a monologue on uh that uh guy's radio show oh right oh right

yeah yeah yeah yeah on on on npr yeah yeah yeah i mean that that show was a long long journey and one that i would say was i did a show called constellations written by nick pain who um about six years ago maybe more now now, I don't know, time has worked. Yeah, it's hard to know. Every day is a week. Yeah, I know. Or every week is a day.

That's something. Should we get into that? Only if it's epigenetic in terms of our society. Okay, cool. I'm really glad we didn't follow that one. I closed that door pretty good thank god but i but um nick is a beautiful playwright i've done two of his i've done two of his shows and while we were doing this other show i asked him how he came up with the idea of it because constellations the show that i did was about a love story taking

different universes and we were like 75 scenes over 90 minutes of a love story between two people and i was and it was ultimately about different universes in which a couple splits up where a couple comes back together after splitting up where she passes away there's a lot a lot happened yeah and he said i i was inspired when my father died about the idea of you know quantum theory and the idea that there are other there are potentially other right universes and it gave me comfort to think that my father and i existed we do still exist in another another universe and so he said i wrote this thing that i actually performed and i'll send it to you which is how i first was inspired to write it and he sent it to me and it was about his the the the passing of his father and it was just the most one of the

most incredible things i've ever read and over five years after we finished that show about every six months i would ask him can i just do this in a black box somewhere yeah can i just perform this right and he said he said no over and over why too personal yeah yeah and and i think yeah i just felt like it's not a character it's like why would you do it it's just me and then it's me it's talking about the experience of losing my father yeah and um and it was a it was cathartic and it was important for me to to write and express and he actually performed it at like at the royal court upstairs in a small theater i think three nights he performed it he just read it from a piece of paper.

And that was it. He had expunged it and that was done. And I just couldn't stop thinking about it. And then like after a few years, I just came back to him and he finally sort of started thinking about it. And then weirdly this convergence of Tom Sturridge, who's a wonderful actor,

he wanted to do this monologue by Simon Stevens, and they have these similar themes. And Simon Stevens and Nick Payne, both of the authors, are very close friends. And so all of a sudden, Nick said, oh, maybe, maybe it could work, maybe it could work. And then he started to rewrite it. And he started to rewrite it about the birth of his daughter, who he had just had a year prior, and the death of his father and how the two of those things sort of came together in his mind at the same time. And we just started working on it and worked on it over a year and worked on it over a year at the public theater, really, or six months when we performed at the public theater and then brought to broadway and it was just one of these experiences of like talking to people about life and death right yeah and it kind of bounces back and forth between the experiences like that monologue that i saw you did it like 10 12 minutes but that was yeah but that wasn't a comp a compilation that was a chunk

of the actual piece, right? Yeah, and oddly, on NPR, in a show like that, it feels like someone's doing a piece on NPR. Sure. It was like a story being told. Yeah, it did seem like that. Who's this guy talking about this thing? Why does he keep bouncing back and forth from birth to death?

It's like this second part of this american life you know but but but it but in in the context of the like the regalness of theater it gave a kind of sacredness to the real like the mon the mundane kind of of i love that what it is where you can take a room like that, where you can take one of those giant theaters that was built to house spectacle and make it an intimate space and all the emotions that come with that, that's the best. That was like, I spent a year doing that. And the stories that came from people

are the reason why we just continued to do it. Because we would go backstage after the show. And normally where people go like, oh, please, like, yeah, sure, I'll take a picture'll take a picture whatever you know yeah i'll sign your playbill you know there's that exchange it was like it was a it was an experience where people come back and they would just share their stories of relationships with their parents or the loved ones loved ones they've lost. And grief. But grief but joy. I mean, like, all of it together in a space, and it just created this community of people.

I mean, and then we would have these talkbacks after the show. You did, really? You know, two times a week we were doing these talkbacks where people would stay. And it was like, it was some of the best times as a performer that I've ever had was being able to, it was a, it really, in thinking about how we don't have theater right now.

It was exactly the reason why I do theater and I never knew it you never get that kind of interaction particularly because you're very rarely I mean you do because you do stand up or you maybe not as much but like for me usually you're just pretending that they're not there and in this piece you were speaking directly to them. So the mandate from our director was anything that happens, you roll with. Right. And also, like, it's striking me as you tell me about it, that that is the necessity. That is why theater is necessary. after the show, the sort of intimacy and the visceral nature of people performing whatever piece it is, is it's moving in an essential kind of human connected way. And I don't think,

you know, I think when people talk about theater or the vitality of it or why it's necessary culturally, that is what it is. It's that dialogue, right? Yes. And I think it has become elitist and in Broadway in particular. I think there's an issue with the nature of the amusement park part of it and also the nature of subscribers. It's an old timey thing yes and and the audience is older um the audience is not always multicultural you know yeah it is it is a and so i think expanding that expanding that audience is so important because i think the authors and the

people who are coming up the things that they have to say you have to earn the audience in a way that in a lot of ways in movies you don't and i think the authors coming up what they have to say is it's just like i right now with it gone the importance of it yeah of community and being together is is i could last it could last for me. I'm lucky I could, you know, movies have paid my way, you know, like, but the community of theater is, is life changing. Like I've heard people talk about movies that changed their life.

Theater changed my life. And there are shows I see, I've seen that have changed my life. And also like, I think, isn't it the world of theater, especially in New York, when you really think about it is, is it's, it's a whole community in and of itself. It's, it's, it's small, but people have been in it for a long time. And, you know, there's actors that, you know, almost do theater exclusively. There's certainly people that work in the theaters at all levels that have been doing that for years, that there is a dug in world of theater that is a lot warmer and a lot more inviting and a lot more sort of grounded in its own community than film.

I mean, you know, you do films like, you know, you see a gaffer and you're like, oh, yeah, dude, you were on that. Hey, man, what's up? you were on that hey man what's up but but it seems that more so than not when i talk to actors about who do movies together even if you spend a year with these people you leave and that's it you know totally it's done totally you know you're not you're not hanging out and also i think there's just the nature of the schedule's great with what theater theater like you know rehearsals are usually you know what nine ten o'clock till five you know and and uh and then when you finally in the show you do the show you know you do the show you you you get there six seven you maybe you know on tuesdays and and saturdays you're doing matinee and an evening performance but your whole day is taken up but like the rest of the

days you have your day and then in the, you have this thing you're doing. And to use something to look forward to, there's a sort of profound sort of like inconsistency to the schedule of making movies that is like, you know, there's just no real consistency at all. You don't know when you're going to be like, we're going to need you today to do the thing with the hat. Yeah. And everybody needs to be there to work, particularly the actors. Everybody needs to be there, even if they're only in a scene or two. If you're there for four scenes, you need to be there every night. You need to be there every night.

At the theater. Yeah. And in a movie, they'll call you in. They're like, you know. Well, the whole thing about like, you know, just me, you know, being sort of green at it and trying to appreciate the process. I mean, you've been doing it since you were movie acting. Green? Yeah.

You're not green at it. At movies? Yeah, I am. I've only done a few. I haven't been acting that long, really. I mean, I did Glow. I did my show. But I haven't been in that many movies.

You know, Jesse Peretz is a good friend oh yeah jesse jesse's great yeah jesse and his cast iron pans in his new york attitude yeah uh i love jesse yeah cast iron hands he likes his cast iron doesn't he hey who doesn't i love him it lasted a long time sure man you got it fetishized cast iron i'm in and out of that i do i do do it i'm i have i have a pretty deep relationship with the cast iron right now that i well it's clear i mean you know you're mocking it so it's very clear that i recently you care about i recently re-seasoned a cast iron and put there he is there he is there he is but but but but talking about the so you i, you're acting when you're a kid.

You're in your parents' movie. Did you train to act at some point in any real way? You mean did I go to school for acting? Or class, whatever. I mean, did you learn to act at some point outside of just experientially? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, when I was very young, I would go to this place called the young actor space in Studio City, right? I started sort of, there was never any

formal training, but I did go to classes, I took classes, but like those kind of classes you take at school and okay, but I never went to an acting school. I have had to learn the sort of more technical things about acting and how to survive as an adult actor um as i could you know from from people in on from people picking up books yeah like picking up books reading reading different ideas, sort of getting into the different ideas of acting from people who have been to school for acting. Like who? Like who have you worked with where you're sort of like picked up, you know, sort of tricks? Because I think the question I'm sort of beating around the bush here is, is that there's a tedious element to film and television acting. There's a lot of waiting around.

The takes are quick. You have to be aware of a lot of things to make the take resonate as best it can. And on some level, as an actor, it seems like if you don't look at it correctly, it could be fairly unsatisfying. Well, I mean, man, is it a great job, number one. there's a lot of td there's a lot of tedium that i would prefer not to of course yeah i mean i guess that's a given i'm just saying like as an artist as some guy who i just talked about theater with for a half hour you know because i'm sorry about that but no no no i love it but like for me like i just recently realized that when you do a scene, when you've got to shoot, when it's action, that has to be the thing. You can't sit around bored or you learn how to use that free time.

But the thing of acting in a movie, it's in these pieces and you've got to show up for those pieces. And as an artist, you want them to be satisfying. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a skill. I think it's a skill that is not my strongest skill. I much prefer like a long endurance run than I do a sprint. Right. Yeah.

And I use that like metaphorically as an actor. Like figuratively speaking, I do. It's a very difficult skill to come in and like kill it in a little space. Um, and, and I, and I've developed techniques to, to try and do that, to give a director what they need. And speaking of being on film, you know, it's like the digital part of it has been helpful because you can kind of do a series, you know, like that kind of, let's just keep rolling. And I'm going to do that same scene again. Can we just go from the, I'm getting the energy up. Can I just start from the beginning again i'm in it now yeah yeah so

but yeah i mean those skills i've watched so many actors and what they do over the years i've mimicked them i've mimicked their behavior before takes some of those things have worked for me some of them haven't some of them gotten me in trouble some of them like you like yeah like you you can watch somebody rile themselves up and they can you know they can like get really like frustrated or or or get like they're in the moment who do you have in mind right now i remember beautiful work i mean there's so many actors do some crazy shit, man, like, you know, to get themselves into a scene. I do remember watching, like, being kind of in awe of watching Heath Ledger, like when we were, you know, and how he would get himself into a scene.

And I, you know, I worked at a young age with Dustin Hoffman and Susan Sarandon and Holly Hunter. Out of all the actors you can name, I could see them really putting a lot of whatever it is into getting ready to do it. Well, I remember Dustin. Which movie? I remember. It's called Moonlight Mile. Okay.

I remember Susan telling me, before you have an emotional scene, you should drink a lot of water because tears really do dehydrate you, you know? And these are the things you pick up where like, I'll never forget, you know, like I will, like I'll drink so much water before an emotional scene and people will be like, what's wrong with him? Like, I don't, I won't cry. I won't cry the whole scene. I'll just drink water.

You know, it's just like something that Susan Sarandon told me. In case you cried, you wanted to be filled up. You wanted to – Yes. You need a full tank. Yeah, you need a full tank. But I think that I would watch Dustin get physically – he would get his energy up.

He would actually get his blood flowing, which is something that I didn't even understand at the time. I didn't even get, oh, right, this is your instrument, right? Which is a very typical thing you would learn in acting class, which I did do. You know, you do warm-up exercise and things like that. But that was like, I remember him doing sort of push-ups and running in place and getting ready before, sometimes just a regular scene where you walk through you know having that stuff going through being alive just flowing yeah yeah you

know those are two good lessons yeah work you know get yourself worked up a little bit and uh drink a lot of water yeah well i i mean is there anything else? Present. Be present. I don't know what that means. I think it's – for a long time, I really love the idea when you talk about being present. I love the idea of actually being present to the things that are going on. And that was what was cool about the theater piece that we did in the Seawall Life thing was things happened, about the theater piece that we did in the seawall life thing was things happened and you have these classic stories of all these wonderful, incredible legends of the theater telling like some woman opening her, you know,

butterscotch candy that like, they're not going to start until she finishes that rap, you know, like, you know, Patti LuPone, you know, like going in and like taking the,

taking the pack of gum out of the woman's hands, you know, and saying like, you're destroying the sacred space. But like what I think is cool is responding to the present of what's happening. You know, the audience is with you. Even if you're in 17th century France or some shit on stage, stuff's happening out there in the audience and it could be inspiring, you know? Yeah. Even when you're on a stage, you feel, I mean, if you're at all attentive, which I am hyper attentive, you feel almost emotionally connected to that crowd. I can feel a crowd easily. I mean, I know when I look outside,

like before I do a show at a theater, I'll go onto the theater before the crowd comes in just to sort of assess the space. But when they come in and I'm looking from the backstage, I'm like, I know exactly where the pockets are. I know where there might be a resistance. I know where there's a problem. You know, sometimes I'm- Do you project ever?

Do you project ever? Oh yeah, all the time. You find yourself like being like- I project all the time. That's part of my genius. Is that... Is that... Even when I come in to interview someone like you,

I'm like, I'll have decided who you are. And then we'll just sort of battle back from that. Don't think I didn't know that. I was very present at the top of this interview. I understand. I understand. I talked to your sister. Did you listen to me talk to your sister? I didn't know that. I was very present at the top of this interview. I understand. I understand. I talked to your sister.

Did you listen to me talk to your sister? I didn't. Oh, yeah. She's pretty cool. She's very cool. And sort of like earnest and kind of like a little intimidating with the earnest. Good. I'm glad she intimidated you.

Oh, no. How does she not intimidate everybody well she happens to be pretty brilliant she is my sister and she has a really lovely voice it's like very soothing and really smart

it was great it was a great talk but this is going good too don't be intimidated that's ok I don't you know don't be intimidated that's okay that's okay i it's okay you can have a better time i'm cool no i you know we didn't i don't remember laughing a lot and we've had some good laughs i remember i remember the intimidation sort of stifled the the laughter part i just had to deal because i have a lot less interesting things to say

so i just had to use humor as a crutch i like it that's basically so like when you talk about heath preparing like that that character was so repressed compressed and sort of smoldering in a sort of strange sensitive way what do you remember him doing if her broke back i remember i remember really beautiful things about him um telling me early on that, you know, the character was very sensitive to light, you know, and sound, that they were just sensitive to those things. Really? And that defined, yeah, like the shape of his character from very early on. He decided that or Ang Lee decided that? He decided that.

He decided on his own. And so, you know, I think this idea of this, I really reveled in that always this idea of this sort of the sort of quote unquote kind of stronger version of the two of them you know this sort of typical male version of the of the of the sort of opposing kind of ideas that ang was going for in that movie i really have observed so many wonderful actors amazing that's to me that to me is what the like outside of the movies i've done or the things i've been in outside of any of that it's the ability to be around those people that have has been so incredible as i look back on the things that i've done so far, I just can't believe the presence I've been in.

Yeah, and when you're in it, I mean, I don't know about you, but there are moments where you're in a scene with somebody or if you're lucky enough just to be doing off-camera lines with somebody you respect, you like to see work, where you can just really take it in. It's fucking astounding because it's such a heightened moment when they go action.

And the way that, you know, the silence, all of a sudden this thing happens. And I don't know if anybody can really know it. And in theater, you know, people witness it with you. But when you're doing movies or TV, and sometimes where I'd be working with, you know, Betty Gilpin or somebody, you know, like I would just be looking at her going like,

oh my God, she's really doing it. That's my favorite thing. My God, he's acting. He's really doing it. He's saving the world. But it's exciting to see it as a fan or as somebody who wants to be moved. Like I would find myself in scenes that weren't even sad.

Again, it's that human thing, the vulnerability thing. We're like, I'm getting choked up and it's not even called for. So I'm like, I'm fighting back tears and I'm supposed to be doing something funny. But I'm so engaged in the humanness of the situation that, you know, you get overwhelmed. situation that uh you know you get overwhelmed i do think that the best filmmakers are the ones who they're all different kinds who are the best i think who do incredible work and like sometimes you just don't know it's such a weird thing you know as an actor too in a film you just the thing i've learned from stage so much is that like i said i asked if you projected on yeah the audience because so often you think things suck and like people come off and be like,

that was amazing. You know, you have no idea ever. So I've given up over the years on even thinking anything works. I just do what I can do and hope for the best. I literally close my eyes and throw the dart and go like, you know, I've done this for a couple of years. I pretty much know where the bullseye is. If I get it anywhere in and around that, I'll be happy. Yeah. And also you don't want to deny people their experience. Just because you didn't feel that it was your night or your scene or your movie, if somebody loves it, you've got to let them have that. You don't want to be that guy, sort of like, you were great,

and they're like, no, no, no, what night did you go? Yeah, by the way, come on, you have to have done that. That's a classic old stand-up's like, that's so the like. That's such a, that's a classic old standup. Oh, Seattle. Yeah, Seattle. Well, you know, there's, you ever heard that joke? There's several angles.

I don't know how people tell the joke about the comic. Like, you know, he's in a town where he's doing a week at the comedy club. And, you know, he's at the mall, you know, like on the Saturday after the Friday show just walking around and some girl walks up to him and says, man, you were great last night. You were so hot and funny and I'd really like to hang out with you tonight

if you have time. And he goes, what show? First or second show? I mean. Right? That about sums it up.'s about sums it up. That about sums it up. The actor's life. I mean, in truth, in truth, it's like, if only they knew what a narcissist they were telling was, you know. Is it narcissism or is it just like horrendous insecurity?

I mean, I mean, on some level, like, you know, it is selfish, but I mean, you know, you do have certain feelings about, you know, when you felt like you connected and there is, you know. Yeah. But those things are just not like, they just don't matter. You're right. I, it just doesn't matter. Like the number of times I've come off of the preview period in theater is what I love the most. And it's like, there are a number of times I've come off of the preview period in theaters that I love the most. And it's like the number of times I came out of a preview going like we knocked that out. Like that was great. And the director comes back and goes like it was way too slow. You know, and you're like, what?

Like, but I was indulging every possible feeling. Like, isn't that what it's all about? And they're like, audience was so bored. Oh, no. Just please, you're not telling the story. You know, and then you do it the next night.'re like fine i'll pace it up and it's like such a sort of like technically well done right in time thing and the director comes back and is weeping and you go like i hate my job this is what is this like there's nothing in it for me you know what you i hate your job. You succeeded at pretending.

That is the job. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, won't you just let me indulge, you know? Right. But there is a, I think that there is something that's so humbling and wonderful about that. Because in the end, story is king. Right. Story is king.

Like, and that's the thing that I've learned as best as I can is you service that story, you will bring people joy. You will bring people discovery. And if you can, when you have an opportunity, pick the right authors because that's really the job. It's like you pick the right author. You pick the right person who's in charge. Yeah. But I mean, then then then you're just sort of you're in service of that thing yeah that's true and that's it i mean but it is sort of

that and you better love the music you're singing yeah you know because and and if you don't um then you know you better be able you know you better be supporting a life that you love do you feel like you shifted to like that there was like once you started to really focus or once you did Sunday in the Park there was that the thing that opened you up

had you kind of exhausted yourself with movies at that point I don't think I'll ever be exhausted by movies but I know I think i just hit a point where i asked myself what i really loved and i've always loved and had a i think a skill enough to do musical theater live right and i think that form of storytelling has always been my love right I telling acting through music I think is the strength that it that does bring me joy but I also think I'm something about being able to communicate through that that way um I've always

felt but I always felt people told me oh you have all these amazing opportunities like you can be in film and you know like why would you why would you want to do that you have this blossoming career in movies like go for it this is the thing and i go yes you're right and then and i felt like i should be embarrassed of that or something like i i like oh you know and so many people tell me like oh i hate musical theater you know and and so you go like oh yeah yeah you're mad i mean totally you're almost like you know like a closeted musical theater appreciate yeah oh are you kidding me like appreciator like desperately in love with let's just be i'm gonna be like so i so i think that at a certain point in my life maybe just getting older i was like

fuck what everybody else says i don't give a shit like this brings me joy i'm gonna i'm gonna die one day like what am i doing i'm gonna do this and so i just said and i also met this incredible person uh janine tesori who happened to write fun home as the composer, as an incredible musical theater composer and composer. And she was like, they were doing Little Shop of Horrors with Ellen Green, the original Audrey, at City Center in New York City. And she was like, will you play Seymour in that? And I was like, absolutely not.

You know, like I was, and she was like, not you know like i was and she was like she just spent so much time convincing me that i could do it that i finally was like fuck it i'm gonna do this yeah and and it was the best experience i've ever had like it was so mind-blowing to be on a stage with ellen green who originated a part that like no one else can play you know she just she just she's the og of ogs and she you know being up there with this incredible cast performing that was when i was like you know what i want to do more of this you know let's let's try it and janine has been my you know my my teacher and my my guide and and guru and friend through so much. She brought Sunday in the Park with George to me and then we're doing the movie Fun Home.

Well, that's good. And you can do the other stuff too. Now you've just sort of broadened your heart and possibilities of employment. Yeah. Both. I like that. Yeah, you're right. It's basically about employment. Yeah. Both. I like that. Yeah, you're right.

It's basically about employment. Yes. It just opens up a whole new path that you happen to love. It doesn't diminish anything, but I imagine it fills in a gap that wasn't there. It fills in a compartment in your soul that wasn't there. I mean, obviously you're great at movies

and you've done great work, but having the courage to sort of follow through with the musical thing, despite the judgment that you thought you would come at you just because you love it so much and then having the opportunity, it must make you feel like a whole person

as an artist, you know? Is that how you felt about getting into movies? And like when you did Glow, I remember watching and being like, he's fucking great. Oh, that's nice. Thanks. And so distinctive. Like when you're in that, the first time you show up in that show, it's like, boom. Like you're, and by the way, that was like.

If you wrote that out, what I just just said i would sound like a fool but i probably sounded like a fool without writing it out but you were just like boom you were there and i and i and do you feel that way about movies like do you feel like you love it well this last one was the first time that i you know chose to do something that was scary to me. Because it's not like I'm getting a lot of roles. But usually if they want me to be in something, it's to be the cranky, neurotic, amped up, sort of like Sam, Sylvia, and Glo or whatever. But this one, the guy really liked the work I did on my show. He liked the way that I was emotional in my face. And this guy that he wanted me to play was this relatively earnest, somewhat kind of beaten down a bit Texan guy who had been sort of humbled by life, but definitely not neurotic or necessarily self-aware or angry.

And I had to be Texan. And I told the guy, I said, like, I don't know. I don't know about the accent. He's like, we'll work around that i'm like and but then like in my mind i'm like but this challenge yourself that you wanted to try to do it do it you know do meet with the dialogue coach the dialect coach figure this shit out and just commit and and then and so i did and i was very proud that i did and the guy was happy i mean that ultimately that's all like you said you're servicing this thing and the director's doing this thing and I needed to show up for work because he only had 19 days and I'm working with heavies man you know Andrea Riceboro yeah of course she's the

other person like it's me and her mostly but that also is helpful when you have someone that oh you have actors like that there's also you your like. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, right, right, right, right, right. They can carry me. Yeah. But they elicit a real response or they elicit something that's like that is, you know, it's that terrible cliche tennis metaphor. But it's true. But my point being that this was the first time that I felt like, you know, I showed up with a craft in place with choices, you know, and taking a risk for me and really engaging in the work of acting.

It was really the first time that I had the freedom of mind and the lack of fear to feel that. So, yeah. Did you feel like you like pushed through your, you know, the accent thing? Yeah. You know, I just figured out, you know, like I guess like any actor does, you know, I accent thing. Yeah. You know, I just figured out, you know, like, I guess like any actor does, you know, I figured out, well, how do I get into this? How do I get into this guy? You know, what, you know, what can I rely on as a tool to show up for these scenes and to show up emotionally? How do I, you know, you know, the dialect coach had written

out some words, you know, a little primer of how to say things so like you know i in my trailer i just run through those and plant the thing and then let it go i'm sure i'm sure there's the accent's not perfect but look man i did a little research and i watched some big fucking actors do accents and no one holds it perfectly no i mean and that's the thing is I think it's all in a certain way a kind of performance, like even the sort of stringing through of roles, you know, like a career is that as well. like obsessively picking and and that's become the sort of idea of what a great actor is um of like curating it to the point of like obsession um and i i just think you know i hope all those people are having fun you know because you anal weirdos who well also because it's a great job like i mean it's a great job in that it's a great job to have fun and to to to explore things inside yourself right those fears right and and when you

connect in a scene you know what i mean that was the thing about working with with andrea is like she's one of these english kind of like you know you know here i am like you know doing everything yeah i i'm wide open you know and I feel myself getting choked up. And she's like, oh, that was good. You know, was that all right? And I'm like, did you feel that? Were you just fucking with me? Didn't you feel that?

You had to have felt that, right? You know, I didn't say that to her, but that's what you walk away. It's like, well, I felt it. I don't give a shit. You know, I was there. If she was pretending, fine. American versus the British. Kind of.

Like the age old, the age old the age old you know we're just we're just this weird mess and then like they're just so put together and kill it every time we're just like sloppy it was wild to watch her work you know because she was playing this broken down texan woman you know and uh yeah i mean it was in Andre who I I've, I've known a bit from, um, I do, we just kind of became friends cause he did my podcast. Like he's, he's intense, but, but yeah, I mean, I, I dug it and it made me want to do more. It made me, it's like going through that first obstacle of, of, of taking real risks, you know, initially with, with my show Marin, it was basically some version of me and Sam Sylvia

was kind of me with no self-awareness. And then to continue to try to get better at it, I'd like to have the opportunity. So that made it much more engaging to me. You seem to me, it's funny because I didn't know you until now but like you seem to me actually be so different from the characters that i've seen you play like you're actually a very like a very well it's not your characters aren't kind-hearted because i think like but they but they're like i mean i'm sure you can be a group don't get me wrong i'm sure you can be but but you don't i mean brendan you don't have to come in right now but i i do i'm i'm full grump i'm a recovering grump he's like he's like i'm not allergic to peanuts but i'm fucking allergic to mark um no but like there there is there is

something to like what's really wonderful is like your essence coming out you know that's new there are things that you can explore. That's new. That you didn't know. And then also people's assumptions. I mean, it's just so funny over a long period of time playing roles, how people perceive you, which is just not you, which is also that struggle. It's like you kind of go i'm not the character that i played in night right right like um i have like i have there are aspects that i understand or that

i learned about about myself that are so interesting to me but i'm not that guy right um and when you know and and i think for a long time people are like oh he's really good at that right right and then when i first started just like oh he's he's a doormat you know he's an emotional doormat you know like that somebody actually i quote somebody when i say that about me um early on and then you do other things and they just think you're the absolute opposite i mean my sister spoke about times where people would say before she did this movie secretary she did where they were like oh she's not sexy enough or something right right and then after that movie it was like she's too like sexual and it's so funny that the people that say these things they do nothing but it's like a it's it's also understanding the that that when you watch

something we don't know people you know you watch a new act you've never you know nothing about you you don't you don't know who they are it then you know other people's stories over time you're watching stories stories within yeah that's true but yeah but did you know like but i mean i like i just spoke of my small experience at that but did you seek things that would uh you know be different enough for people to judge you differently every choice you made around jobs, around roles? I think no. I think I would, I kind of would say yes, maybe. But also, you're challenging certain things, yes. And then you get like, oh oh i've done this thing and then something comes you go that'd be kind of fun to do you know yeah um that people have asked me over the years things like what's the character you've always wanted to play and or is there is there a person in history

you've always and i'm like no what and i listen to great, all the great ones. Let me just say this. All the great ones are like Winston Churchill, you know, or like, you know, whatever it is. It's like. Yeah, who are, I don't want the pressure of playing anybody. But there are people who are roles they've always want to play. I'm not that guy. I'm like, I'm just, you send it to me. I read it.

I like it. I'm going to, I'll try and fit in it. You know, does the suit fit? You know, I don't know how you feel in your life and in the work that you've done i want to do things that doesn't necessarily have to be acting yeah and more and more it actually isn't acting what is it producing uh restaurant work creating more thing restaurant work yeah no i yeah i mean i mean i do love to cook but i i um i i think we go through different stages in our lives. And I think in those stages in our lives, we all question things that we've done in our work, in our job, and in our life. And I think I'm sort of at a place where I've had incredible opportunities, a ton of luck.

opportunities, a ton of luck. And, and I just, I, I think I do want to explore other avenues. That's part of what getting into producing has been for me. That's sort of the step in, you know, and, and then I think more and more trying to create myself, you know, I, I, I, I love acting, don't get me wrong. And I but I have always ever since I began loved watching the other actor across from me more than playing the character that I'm playing. that has fascinated me and that I've been in awe of are the other people across from me, which I'm starting to kind of take into account and starting to understand that maybe it's something else that I want to do more. Maybe it's directing, maybe it's writing something for someone, maybe it's that, but that to me is where I, I, um, I find myself moving. Have you done some of that? Have you done some writing of stage pieces? Yes.

Yeah, and not stage pieces. I write and more screenplays. I love puzzles, you know, and I find great joy in the, like, insular, isolated space that is running. It really is yours. And having been an actor for so many years, you're coming in at the very end. And you're interpreting somebody else's stuff.

And there's just something so personal and private about being alone. And it can just suck and no one's watching. That I just love. That's great so i mean it must be thrilling to be nominated for tony for producing i mean that's got to be encouraging it's really being nominated for a tony for producing and for for acting i you know that's like a that's it's just pretty fucking cool like of all of the things uh that's cool and i i'm not really a big sort of awards person right i but i that when i when i heard about that i was about the acting tony i was thrilled yeah yeah the acting tony is just a thing sure man it's great and so i i was i was it's a community that i love so much and for so many years have like like you know

wanted to be a part of and not to say that being nominated makes you feel like you are but I think that I finally over the past few years have really felt like it's a community that I love and will give to and that gives back and I know I will have for the rest of my life. And I will give back to for the rest of my life. And like the first show I ever saw, I wanted to be up there and a part of it. And just to, I don't know, we talked about the Harvard story. I was thinking, you know, every time before I walk out on stage, what I think about, if it's in a professional sense, I think about like when I was in high school or something and i walked out the feeling is literally no different it's just like all those people paid way too much money to come see right so like you have such a

deep obligation but that difference between play as a kid and play when you're doing it that moment there is no difference it's just like everything converges on this point and it gets real. Yeah. And that to me, like, it will never get old. Yeah. It just, it will never get old. And so, yeah, I mean, I like also,

also the Harvard moment made me think like, it's also great to just be a producer of a show and be sitting there in the audience opening night and be like, hey, I get to read the reviews and I didn't have to go sweat and perform up there. It's pretty great. Yes, and now you've got both of those things going. Well, and also, well, good luck with the movie.

I hope you win. It was good talking to you. Nice meeting you. Thank you. Same. It was fun. I am a fan of yours. I really think you're a wonderful you. Nice meeting you. Thank you. Same. It was fun. I am a fan of yours. I really think you're a wonderful actor.

Thanks, man. You're not as good of a podcaster or a radio host, but I think you're a good actor. Well, good. And just keep trying. That's encouraging. You know what I mean? Just keep trying.

I will in all things. No, but I really thank you for having me on your show. It was great, man. It was great talking to you. I'll see you around, hopefully. Yes, I hope so., you know. I will in all things. No, but I really thank you for having me on your show. It's great, man. It was great talking to you. I'll see you around, hopefully. Yes, I hope so. Okay, buddy. In person for fuck's sake.

That'd be great. All right. All right, man. Bye. There you go. There you go. Go watch some Jake stuff. We'll see if he wins a Tony.

As I said before, he's up for three of them. Best actor in a play and a couple production Tonys as well. Seawall Alive is the play he's up for. For producer and best actor and also slave play, which I'm sorry I missed. Why didn't I learn how to use GarageBand during lockdown? Other than just talking into it. So many fucking things. Why?

Why didn't I get that rug fixed? Did you realize you can break a rug? You can. Thank you. Boomer lives in monkey Lafonda cat angels everywhere in the rain in the fucking rain I'm going to go. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything.

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