WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1213 - Azazel Jacobs

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

Writer-director Azazel Jacobs was born into the world of experimental film. But it was a combination of comic books, old radio shows, Mad Magazine and The Clash that helped him develop the sensibility he would later put on screen. Aza tells Marc how his parents passed along a love of art and a compulsion to create, why he believes the name they chose for him limited his professional options, and how he found out a world existed between Hollywood and the kind of films his father made. They also talk about Aza's latest film, French Exit. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck sticks? That one's not particularly nice. What the fuck sticks? Hey, fuck stick. It's not a great thing.

What the fuck topians? I've been doing this for over a decade. What is this, like 12 years? What is it, like 15? What is it, like 19 years? How long have, like 15? What is it, like 19 years? How long have I been doing this? 45 years? What's happening?

Today on the show, Azazel Jacobs. Azza. Azza Jacobs. He's a director and a screenwriter who made films like Terry with John C. Reilly, The Lovers with Deborah Winger and Tracy Letts. And his new movie is French Exit with Michelle Pfeiffer, who actually got a Golden Globe nomination for it. And I love that movie. The interesting thing about Azza is that I met him years ago. He was somehow connected to my ex-girlfriend, Sarah. And we talked a bit. I knew he grew up in New York.

I knew his parents were artists. But I did learn about his parents sort of more in depth later, Ken and Flo Jacobs, who were and still are experimental filmmakers. But what we learned in this conversation is that Aza is like firmly sort of steeped in that world. It's a small world and it's an interesting world. And it was a world that had an impact when the entire world was smaller. Before the big Internet, where little pockets of humanity and art could really sort of serve an entire community or be special in almost a global way and had a certain a certain traction and integrity a sort of uniqueness but now it's just blown open man I could be an experimental filmmaker I think I'm gonna be experimental

filmmaker have you ever made an experimental film no but I got a phone i think i'm gonna be a novelist have you written anything no but i got i can i've got a computer i think i'm gonna be a comedian have you ever done stand-up no but i i watch you can do it i just got to get i have there's this place near me where if you bring 10 friends you can be a comedian and now i'd call myself a comedian because i brought seven friends at this age of fucking entitlement how are we not all preoccupied with just ourselves jesus christ man some days i'm just full of fear other days i'm smoking fish i'm playing with a kitten i'm building shelves i'm still sorting out what was in the old garage. I brought some stuff to be framed. I'm getting my house together. I guess I'm planning

on staying for a little while. Obviously, this is probably going to be the last house I live in. It's weird to think of that shit. What am I doing it all for? Right? I think I'm starting to appreciate why we do things. Maybe meditation has something to do with that. Maybe it's just age. Maybe it's just a fact that my father does nothing. And he has no interest in doing anything and hasn't for years. But he does complain about having nothing to do.

He doesn't want to do anything. He's not interested in anything he's bored and he complains about having nothing to do i don't want to be that guy i'm finally putting my office together but as i was saying i'm still sorting through the massive amount of stuff that accumulated in the old space. Tchotchkes, bits and pieces of fan art, pictures, books. And I'm trying to make an office in my house. And it's just odd to go through a lifetime's worth of shit.

I'm not that nostalgic. I'm really not. But there's a few things, a few key elements from my life that I'm nostalgic about, and they have direct connection to this undertaking, to this podcast. There's a painting I put up on the wall in the house, in the office. It was a fan, a piece of fan art had come to visit the studios when we were doing Air America. doing Air America. When Air America Radio was at the old WLIB studios, there was a door into the studio and there was a little sort of saying that was taped right next to the doorknob, a little kind of affirmation that was put there before we even got there. WLIB was an African-American station. Some of the people from that station worked on Air America. My partner, Mark Riley,

did. But just above the lock on the door, it said, do something today which the world may talk of hereafter. And just beside the door was an on the air sign that lit up. And someone very cleverly, I can't remember the woman's name. I'll have to find it, did a painting of just those two things. And it's a great little painting. And I put that up on the wall in the office and I'd had been sitting on it for a while. It wasn't up anywhere for a long time, but now it means something. It means the beginning. Me walking through that door was the beginning of me figuring out how to be on this microphone. And then there's another painting that I've just brought in to be framed by another fan whose name is, I believe it's

I've just brought in to be framed by another fan whose name is, I believe it's Dimitri Samaroff. I believe he is a artist and writer. I think he's from Chicago. But I love his art. And he somehow from a picture of the inside, the picture of a photograph of the inside of the old garage, he did this painting that almost looks abstract. But if you look at it for a while, you realize it is of the old garage, of the inside of the old garage he did this painting that almost looks abstract but if you look at it for a while you realize it is of the old garage of the interior of it and i love it so that's getting framed but the point is on a day-to-day basis because i don't have children and i don't have you know as much of a connection with my parents in a kind of detached way where I can't really quite explain it.

That I don't always know what life is for. I don't always know what I'm supposed to be doing. But because of this year off that we all took, we all took a year off to be terrified and existentially devastated and financially compromised many people. It was a great year off for many, and it's ongoing. We're still in it. but because of that and because of what I went through over this last year, I've really confronted with the idea of like, what is, what is life? What is the big payoff? Is it to, to stay engaged and keep working? Is it about achieving things? You know, what is it about? I mean,

I don't have children to look at and say, look what I did. I guess I have a, a body of work that i'm proud of but i i'm just trying on a day-to-day basis to have a certain amount of acceptance but also to like enjoy life a little bit and be okay with that or to at least have some sense of what it's for and then when i'm doing all this stuff in my house every day every action i take that brings me some joy is counteracted with this idea of what fucking difference does it make it they they operate together in me that uh you know i love that who gives a shit um this is amazing but doesn't matter. God, I love doing this, but it doesn't mean anything. Now, if I could somehow get rid of that second part, that second voice, that counterweight to everything, at least for a little while, it'd be nice.

I think the meditation's helping. I think the kitten helps. I also feel like maybe I should be of service more. also like feel like maybe i should be of service more i think i rationalize that because it seems that this podcast and you know my presence in the world on instagram again for those of you who care or who listen to this i think i'm i think it's helpful i i hear from a lot of people it helps and i'm glad to help but i don't know that I can say, well, I'm really doing my part. Am I? I guess, what is the point of this?

It's Passover. It's Jew time. You're not supposed to be eating the bread. I don't celebrate any of it. But happy Passover. Maybe my tone isn't good. I hope you're enjoying family the best you can. I hope that some of you are able to spend time with your family. I hope that you're being as Jew-y as you possibly can as a Jew. And those people who don't understand what Passover is or it's not their holiday

uh once you try being a little Jewy too I don't know man I guess I just want to be at peace with who I am and what's around me but that it becomes very difficult because some of that requires some engagement some service some vigilance and uh probably a little bit of righteousness in the sense of principles but other days i'm just like fuck it man i mean i bought a set of shelves from a company that i know is not good that I know donates money to the wrong place, but they had the shelves I wanted. They had the shelves I needed. They had the exact things I wanted.

So I'm like, is my $200 really going to create the next dictator? It might help, but do my shelves look good? Yeah. Do they hold everything I wanted them to hold? Yup. Did they come out exactly? Are they exactly they exactly what you wanted yeah they're making me happy well is that is that too big a price to pay for the next fascist dictator for putting a few bucks towards that i know these shelves look really good but you you shouldn't support I know these shelves look really good, but you shouldn't support.

I know, I know. But, I mean, the shelves is like, all right, but just know, you know, when you're being taken away from that house with those shelves, you might have paid for those shoes that guy's wearing, for those boots that he's got at your throat. But at the shelves man i mean you know it's like right i mean i don't know so aza jacobs interesting talk i find that there's so much art and there's so much music and there's so much i don't know and don't understand and haven't been exposed to and i think of myself as an open-minded educated and uh exposed guy but it never stops you can

always put new stuff in to the mind uh oz's movie the new movie is french exit starring uh michelle pfeiffer and lucas hedges it opens in theaters across the country this Friday, April 2nd. I enjoyed the movie. I enjoyed talking to Aza. I'm ready for the art. Are you ready for Aza? Here he come. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

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Aza. Hello, Mark. How are you, buddy? Good. It's nice to see you. Thanks for doing this. You left California? I've been, you know, what happened happened is about i think about four years ago we had a fire in our place in highland park not like a huge fire but a big fire that we had to move out of that place and put all of our stuff in storage and then we've been kind of just my wife diaz and i've been kind of just going to wherever work is and we've been going and

especially because my folks are still here and um so I've been going here a lot. I'm kind of spending time here and lost in New York city and Los Angeles. But then when this whole thing happened, I was just pulling my hair out over there really. So the plague, the plague, like it wasn't, uh, no one got hurt. And no, no, no, it was a dryer fire. So it was, uh, it was a real one. Like it was a dryer fire so it was uh it was a real one like it was a few fire trucks i was not there diaz's home did you own the house no no so it was kind of a perfect time for the you know for the landlord to get us out because the neighborhood

was changing so much and she could sell the home for a lot so it all kind of worked out uh especially for her and now you're just back in new york you got your folks house no i'm nearby though so we're at a place lower east side and so and they're still in lower manhattan where i grew up man i miss it man now that i think about it we're living down there on in the snow i lived on second between a and b and in the snow. I lived on second between A and B. Yeah. I can't imagine New York. It's so sad and empty now, right? It's amazing. I mean, it's just right up in your face. Every day I walk out, I see another store that's gone and there's people that did nothing wrong.

Just suffering. Places that I remember well and have had history and only contributed to making this city what it's been for so long. Yeah. And so it's very different than being in Los Angeles where it was easier for me to just kind of avoid. kind of a void. But at the same time, the life that's still going on, that's persevering, these kind of like, you know, the weeds that keep happening and these little conversations that you hear behind people, like that's happening still in the streets, even through the mask I can hear and all these amazing stories that you just want to kind of keep walking behind somebody and seeing what's going on with their life. Yeah. I mean, I talked to Patty Smith a few months ago and she's down there and she posts on Instagram a lot. And I sort of like, that feels

tapped into me when I see her talking, Patty Smith in her little house. Yeah. And I go down to my folks and we walk around the block and just seeing the city from and that like that neighborhood is exactly pretty much how it was growing up now it's that empty again you know like i was yeah yeah before it was called tribeca it was just this uh you know place that i could play in the middle of the streets it was just an empty empty there was just the artist there and it was like industrial lofts right it was totally industrial and also a lot of abandoned, like not abandoned lofts. It turns out there were landlords that had these lofts all boarded up. So they're waiting for the market to change. And it never made sense to me. There were so many buildings that were just empty.

And I remember my parents explained to me, well they're holding on to it in case the neighborhood goes up and i didn't make there was no chance that this neighborhood could go up you know it's just in your mind just yeah in my mind but clearly i know nothing that wasn't so it was just like it almost felt abandoned down there yeah like i was like what so like you're i don't know if you edit your Wikipedia page, but there's like not much on there. No, I don't. Yeah, I edited completely off. I took it. No, there's nothing. I don't. Like how old are you? I'm 48. OK, so I'm OK. I'm 57. So you go back. You remember the 70s down there? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I mean, especially because that's where all the other filmmakers and artists were. So I definitely remember the neighborhood kind of going a few blocks to this way, or there was a theater, the collective of Living Cinema that was on White Street. Those were all kind of happening in the neighborhood.

What year were you born? 72. Interesting. So your dad, both your parents are artists? Yeah. My mom was a painter, but she's really been a collaborator with my father, who's been making films since the late 50s. But it was like, it's a very specific type of lifestyle, because these are not big pictures.

No. And so their audience was in the neighborhood. I mean, that was it. It was just them. And so the screenings, their audience was in the neighborhood. I mean, that was it. It was just them. And so the screenings were happening in all those lofts, you know, like you would walk into these places and people had screens set up and they would have a screening there. And like, those are my earliest memories for sure. Just watching these films that kind of made sense to me,

especially at that age, you know, like when you're four or five, you're not seeing any difference between those films and Superman cartoons. They all kind of feel like movies or even bigger films. We romanticize that era of art, you know, in New York and in general. Right. So I guess what do you think your father was doing, like in terms of film? Like, you know, when you grew old enough to sort of wrap your brain around that this was the nature of his art, but it was clearly not the movies that you would see in a movie theater. You know, who were his contemporaries? What was the movement? Well, I think that it was a matter of survival for him. I think definitely want to hear him talk about the 50s, especially, and just the kind of dearth of films and how far away the art world seemed. I mean, he was very much grew up poor, working class, and fell into the art.

I mean, just seeing art. What he told me is that he was given a, like a school card to the Museum of Modern Art as a little kid. And then he would go down there and just to kind of pass time, he would wind up seeing these films, these foreign films as a kid. And just that had this huge impression. He would just be there all the time. And so by the time he came out of the Coast Guard,

he had an idea of something about, you know, art. But it was really kind of following through that, kind of learning about on his own, and then wound up studying with a painter named Hans Hoffman that introduced art that was no chance of a commercial life. art that was no chance of a commercial life. It was just a, really a matter of expressing kind of so much of the despair and so much of the politics that he was feeling. It was a way to communicate in a way, especially to himself, but what wound up happening is this. And again,

this is where my insights for me, cause I was, you know, a little kid. So I'm now looking back and thinking about this as an amazing time, but these, it was always the same people at the, at the screenings, you know a little kid so i'm now looking back and thinking about this is an amazing time yeah but these it was always the same people at the at the screenings you know it was other fellow filmmakers like what are we talking like 10 people 20 it would no yeah i think there'd be 20 people definitely is what i remember and and homes it could be somewhere between 10 and 20 um and i remember there'd be these screenings and then there'd be these conversations that would go on later and later. And then my sister and Nisi and I would fall asleep with the other little kids. And at a certain point, these would turn into big shouting matches over films because this

was this was the pay at the end of the day, like the conversation, the kind of that's the that's all there was. There wasn't anything. There was no such thing of like anything more than that. Was anybody writing on the films, on that community of people? Yeah. Jonas Mikus was at that time writing for the New York Times and he was really shining a light. And there was other writers for sure that were doing that

and saying that there's something important going on here. But it was very, very obviously far away from what Warhol was doing, which was by kind of the closest kind of commercial version of that world. There was an intersection, but the intentions were very, very different and the worlds were very different. but the intentions were very, very different and the worlds were very different. Like the whole models and drugs and all that stuff could be farther away from what my father and those people, I think, especially my father was interested in. He just was, I think seeing that type of money

and seeing that type of money wasted was so insulting to him. And for him, it was really a choice between doing everything he can to not get a normal job and just survive doing the work that he felt like was essential for him. Well, how did they do that? Well, ultimately, to raise my sister or not, he taught film at SUNY Binghamton. And that was only could have happened, he could only have gone hired in the late 60s because he had no college education I mean barely graduated high school so there was

like that one sliver in society where you could hire somebody to start a department um and then other than that it was just very very cheap living I mean I can't even tell you how cheap New York City was a totally different thing so the it wasn't how am I going to pay this rent I mean, I can't even tell you how cheap New York city was a totally different thing. So the, it wasn't, how am I going to pay this rent? I mean, rent on our place, I think it was 35 bucks a month when I moved in. Get out of here. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what that whole neighborhood was. It wasn't, you need to walk into these huge places and you never think to yourself like, wow, how much are they paying for this? It was just, that was normal. It was like just above squatting or was it comfortable? When my mom met my dad, he definitely had no windows, like no windows. I think it was just like plastic.

And I mean, she civilized him to a degree. But that stuff was so unimportant to him and and not very important to her until i think you know kids start happening and then you start kind of looking ahead what kind of paintings did she do abstracts or yeah yeah and believe it or not my mom um went to risdy and uh she started painting abstract paintings while she was there. And the teachers felt like she should be doing much more commercial work. So they called their parents in and they told her, told, told them, listen, if your daughter doesn't start painting more commercial works,

we're going to kick her out. And her parents were completely excited by that idea. They said, yes, kick her out, kick her out. Cause this is, they were totally did not want her to do this. So they did, they kicked her out. And she really just went, if anything went farther into that direction. And that's how my parents met too. My dad was just painting on the beach in Provincetown.

And she saw him. And I think that the fact that he was supposed to be selling these paintings was so crazy because nobody would ever buy them, but she loved them immediately, and that's kind of how their romance began. It's heartbreaking somehow. You know, it's beautiful,

but there's something painful about the commitment to art over commerce and art over. There's almost like an intention to it that like, you know, we don't want that kind of attention. Yeah, definitely. There was a whole side of that, the commercial side of it that was so repulsive and so other and so outside of who they'd want to become and who they'd what they'd want to contribute while they're here and they've stayed in that oh yeah yeah my dad's making he's 87 now and my mom and they're just that's what they do and i would say first and foremost my dad makes his films for my mom you know she's the eyes that he trusts you know like

that's the person says oh yeah there's something there there's something not and does anyone else see them at this point they do they do and if anything there's probably like a bigger audience in a lot of ways because you know the young kids that are finding these and seeing i think kind of maybe it's ken jacobs yeah i can't they are finding them and And I've been working with Kino on like a big kind of box set that will come out soon. And people are finding them. And, you know, I would just say the other thing about these screenings, because it's completely true. Like so many screenings as a kid, I just remember the theater being emptied out. Like, especially if we're going to outside of that world, right?

Like a screening at the MoMA. Just that sound of chairs going flap, flap, flap, one after another, you know, and I would just see the place, but there would always be, besides the people that already were there and into that work, there'd be one or two people left over at the end of the screening that would go up to my dad and look at him like oh i thought i was completely alone until this moment and i remembered that and that's that stayed with me you know like that was something that i think when the kind of solitude

and the pain of that which is apparent like it's definitely not an easy life to choose that's something that always stayed with me the one guy that really connected yeah that goes up and go oh i did not know this was possible and i saw that over and over like because i imagine like growing up with that like like the like i just saw the title star spangled to death. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, I kind of like, all right, I can sort of wrap my brain around the period and what it probably was about, but it was a big epic movie, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And that was one that he actually, I mean, that's one that he started before my sister and I were born and then finished after he retired. Like he had to start it, teach for 30 years. Computers had to happen so he could actually finish it very cheaply because he didn't have the money to do it. How long of it? It's like, was it an epic? Yeah, it's about six and a half hours. And it really is.

I mean, it's his view of this country. And it's the view of definitely where this country is now. I mean, he started it back then, but it completely understood where we're heading. I mean, where we are now is something that he's been, both of them, been talking about since I've been a little kid. that he's been and both of them been talking about since i've been a little kid like this has been a clear this whole this whole insanity has been really clearly where things have been going for my whole lifetime to them and those are the conversations they had with other filmmakers and that was you know what they were trying to to show the world or what they were reacting to by being committed to expression over commerce.

There's that, but also, like, I don't think, like, the art of it was really important. Is there another way of seeing it? You know, I got to study with Stan Brakhage, who's another, like, very big heavyweight in that world. Where did he teach? In Boulder. So I went up there just for a summer course. He took a teacher. I mean, you would think, like, you know, like know like did brackage know your old man he must have oh yeah they were super close yeah yeah yeah so you went you went and studied with your your dad's

pal the other guy because he taught this class that was kind of infamous called sex death and cinema all right and like i and i was already studying film. It was an amazing, I mean, and the whole thing that I kind of take away from at least what Stan's big objective was, was to go back to that place when you're a kid, before you get late, you know, before you're told that grass is green and the sky is blue, like what is happening in the grass? What is actually making up those

colors like how do we go back before we get so close-minded and just dismiss things the beautiful amazing things that are happening and so the art side of what they were trying to do and how to kind of take things back from not only like a financial place, but, and just an internal connection was, I think just as essential as the politics. I mean, that, that is political,

right? Just to be. So that was, okay. So those were really the two schools you're talking about. Cause like in brackage, my experience when I had the experience, when I was open-minded enough to understand, you know, what was happening in the legacy of Brackage, where, you know, you're watching a cinematic experience that could just be, you know, colors. kind of framing of things that you can't even identify necessarily.

Like there's an experience to watching the way those things flow together. That is not, it's not verbal necessarily. It's not narrative certainly. And it's something about using the movement of the medium to express something primal or poetic. Whereas the other side of art movies, not art movies, but film as art in the purest sense, I guess, would be more of an intellectual exercise. And I would say, if anything, where my father's work has kind of returned much more to

painting, using his paintings, using abstract images, and learning how to, and showing, like, depth even with 2D images. So he's, the work is extremely abstract now. It's not like shooting. Like, in the beginning, it was definitely shooting friends, doing different things, and actually shooting film. But now, especially with computers it's been so much about really bringing paintings to life in the way that he feels them and sees them and so they've connected in that way you know they i did i mean that was the other thing

about them like i just the conversations was pretty much every day between them on the phone you know like they would stan would be calling all the time oh really talk yeah this was like again like this is the pay is each other this right this is a life the life of an artist because like you know there's nothing more disturbing than the art world really in terms of of you know the business of art of course art, which I knew nothing about until I dated a painter. And I was like, oh my God, this is obscene. I can imagine. I don't know that world, but I know that with my dad,

him and my mom started this theater here in the East Village called the Millennium. Well, it's gone now from there. And my dad would sometimes show Warhol's films, the films he cared about, and he'd wind up sitting there. He was projecting them. And he told me about talking to Warhol about whatever film he was showing and that he was so touched that my dad had watched it

because everybody that would come to his screenings would stay in the hallway like nobody would actually sit in the theater yeah this was just a party outside in the lobby but nobody would venture in and actually take like respond to the work itself yeah you know and so that was like the closest that he got to that side of things and um by compliment Warhol and showing Warhol's movies? Well, just seeing how empty what the relationship between that type of audience and that work was, at least at that point. So when do you decide that you're going to approach film i mean it seems like

you know it was inevitable on some level you were either going to be an artist or or run far from it you know but i mean they gave me this name so that i there's just no chances of going into politics or into a synagogue you know that was like definitely the idea between behind azazel was they they were always like you know you could do whatever you want but they kind of immediately limited what does azazel mean azazel is a is a fallen angel's name and my parents idea who Azizel fell for good reasons because he disobeyed God but it's uh it's you know they have very very strong feelings against religion and I mean the amazing thing with Azizel that I didn't fully understand until I got older was like if you meet an Israeli and you say that you met Azizel they won't believe it because that's just like they say go to hell they say go to Azizel all

the time like that's their curse word like Azizel yeah you won't believe it. Because that's just like, they say go to hell. They say go to Azazel all the time. That's their curse word. Azazel? Yeah, you try that out and they will say, no, you never met. It seems impossible. That someone would name their child that? Yeah, yeah. It's just not like what's done.

And actually, I had to, when I was like 20-something, I had to go to, I went torael once in my life for like a thing with mtv that i was working on and uh even when i got to the airport they just did not want to let me on the plane they just couldn't get over they looked at my passport and they were like this is not your name they could this can't be and they kept calling people over and kept moving they'd ask me same question so oz is your name did you give yourself your name no your parents give you yes your parents are jewish yes azazel is not your name we're like over and over and over and over and over again and then i get over there you know and like um the same thing i just keep introducing myself

and like the kids love you know the young people like loved it. They thought I was on some death metal. Yeah, right, right, right. It was. So it's a demon name. Yeah, it is. It is. But yeah, so they were definitely like, the world is yours. But at the same time, they gave me this name that I definitely felt definitely felt like art was what I was supposed to be doing. But I thought cartooning was what I really loved, underground comic books. Like Spiegelman?

Who were your guys? Yeah, definitely Charles Burns. All those people. Oh, Burns. How great is Burns? Amazing. And Spiegelman was also a student of my father, so I knew. I knew.

He had to know. Your dad had to know Spiegelman. Yeah a student of my father, so I knew. I knew. He had to know. Your dad had to know Spiegelman. Yeah. So he studied with my dad, and they've been very, very, very tight. Is he still smoking those camels? He's on e-cigarettes. Now Art and I have been writing something. Now we're collaborating on something.

Yeah, we've been working. We've been writing. How's he doing? He's doing good. I mean, pulling his hair out because of this, what's going on in the world as well. Right. I mean, this is like every nightmare that I think has been on their mind

for years. So everybody's, but he's surviving. He's managing. And it's been great to work with him so closely. What are you working on?'s definitely it's a tv thing it's something that we've been developed we've been developing with neil gaiman for a while now oh but neil gaiman too that's interesting you spiegelman and neil yeah yeah and it's been yeah it's been cool and it's kind of really kind of talking about when art was a, was a threat when art was still deemed a real threat.

It's a documentary series or it's just, it'll be a narrative, but it's really fantastical. It's kind of far out there. It's very, very, um, if,

yeah, it's, it's wild that we're able to do it. I think it will be something special. When art was a threat. When do you, what do you think was the last piece of art that was a threat when do you see that at time what was that time oh well look i mean for sure if we think about comic books burnings and we think about little richard little

richard you know yeah tutti frutti and right i mean like there's they constantly uh i think there's examples throughout right here is where we like, oh, this is actually something that people hadn't figured out how to market yet. Right. And it ruptured the culture and then it was appropriated. Exactly. This smells like teen spirit situation. So you wanted to get into graphic art. I don't know how thoroughly I thought about this but i definitely was a you know i wasn't a good student i mean i was uh like i was actually pretty good i mean in its own way i was i was a's and f's you know i went to high school here in the city and um things that

i was interested in like art and history i would do well in what what generation are you are you like were the beastie boys your age or they my age i think they're my age beastie boys were yeah we're a bit older i definitely liked them growing up um but who was my generation i mean i had this kind of strange experience that i got to uh i had my sister was four years older. And because of that, I was able to get into a lot of punk and stuff quite early. Like I got to, my first show was going to see The Clash with her in 82. And that was something that kind of completely changed my life. And that made me, yeah, yeah. Like I came back a completely different kid.

You know, I was nine years old and that set my whole path forward the clash did oh completely i mean yeah we went again we were out and my dad was teaching that summer out in boulder with stan they were doing like so stan and asked him to come out so we all were out there and we'd go out there for each summer like between 80 81 82 and the clash came through and it was just one of those things you know like it was uh yeah playing at red rocks and um red rocks and that's already mystical right oh the whole thing was yeah you know i was it was where i was in the car with my with my mom and my sister and they're like okay so anisi's going to see the clash and so tickets were nine bucks so we're going to give you nine dollars worth of quarters so you can go to

the arcade and i just kind of threw out this thing like being a little snotty brother saying oh why can't i go see the clash and my sister reacted so quickly it was like no no no no no that i was like oh yeah yeah i definitely you know um and so my dad had two students, Steve and Julia, that were big Clash fans. And so they wound up taking me and my sister. They must have been about 20. And we went there the day before and slept out, you know, slept out like waiting and on those steps. And that was like, you know, I can remember that so well.

I mean, the first time really smelling weed and just wondering, like, what that is going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember at some point, like, there was a conversation with, we were the first ones. So there was a whole line of people sleeping on these stone stairs. At some point, like, somebody put their hands over my ears. And, you know, you just start hearing, you start really listening. hands over my ears and, you know, you just start here, you start really listening. And it was somebody, somebody was offering a blow job to get in earlier. And I was like, a blow job? Like, what kind of job is that? You know, like I was trying to figure out what kind of job. I knew

it was something that would get somebody in something earlier. Who was offering who a blow job? Yeah. I think somebody next to us was offering the security guard. Oh my god. Yeah, yeah. And so then I remember like we got in, you know, first thing at 9, 10 a.m. And then suddenly you're waiting hours and hours in the sun for this concert to start. And so because I had brought all these mad magazines with me, I wound up being kind of like really popular, you know, in the way that I could just pass out and wind up in the kind of getting passed around and, and just loving it, you know,

just seeing this whole other world open up. And then by the time the show started, we were so up close. So, I mean, it was, it was that sense that I kind of i mean this is again like in retrospect but obviously like seeing this band come out that looks like an army is so impressive for like a little boy and the mohawks and all that shit but also just seeing the love that was coming towards this especially coming from the world that my dad was in was just like, oh, wow, this felt just as pure. And it was also being loved a thousand times more. And I just had such an impression.

You know, some skin had put me on their shoulder. And so I just was about a foot away from Strummer while he sang. And I definitely knew, like, something really significant happened. And then my parents were like, I came back just a different kid. And that set me. Oh, yeah, yeah, that set me. I'm on an insane level with them to this day. I'm just like, you know.

The class. Drummers and underwear size. I'm crazy, crazy. How did it change your approach to life? I mean, what was it that changed first first and foremost it's like the energy from the music gave me and has continued to give me some kind of courage in terms of pursuing my own path and then obviously kind of getting so into it you're hearing these words and you're hearing these interviews and you're hearing somebody being

so direct again kind of going back to this idea i know that one of the things about the clash is just kind of how hypocritical or contradictory they were but to hear them talk about not pursuing money but pursuing art and pursuing a message completely connected to the world that i was coming from right and it was a different type of message it wasn't your parents message it wasn't them and their friends arguing about art it wasn't it was more like it was visceral in a way that was probably different it was and at the same time it was uh like the blowback that they would always get you know for changing and trying all these different things and the combination of influences

were something that they would always get a lot of shit for. I mean, now they're looked at back in this kind of legendary status, but that wasn't the case for so long. And that definitely has been the thing for me in my own films of trying to bring in different influences and see what I can do different from it. And how do they combine?

And where is that clash in my own work? What kind of sparks comes out of that? So I always keep going back to different music of theirs to help guide me in terms of going, okay, this is something, this is my interest and it pushes me in these directions definitely in the idea that like with the every film that i make i always try to go in the opposite direction from the last film and try to do something really really different and something and i i feel like that definitely comes from the clash's's influence. So when did you start actively pursuing film? I mean, how old were

you? So I picked up, I mean, one of the amazing things was like, you know, I grew up really rich in a certain way, not financially, but there was always cameras and there was the books. There was so much to grab around. So I wound up picking up a camera around senior year of high school, Super 8 camera and shooting something and liking how it came out and then when it came time to applying to schools I applied to SUNY Purchase I applied to a bunch of art schools and Cooper Union I didn't get in but I wound up being invited to the film department at SUNY Purchase and that what I was thinking okay I'm going to go here for one year and then we'll see about reapplying to Cooper Union. But then immediately kind of going to purchase, especially that school at that time, asking, which were so good at asking you, like, okay, do you have something to say?

Do you have something you want to say? If not, get out of here. And the more that they asked of me the more i got into film and there's also the first time i was starting to see independent film like i just didn't really understand that there was a place in between hollywood films what my father did until i got to purchase and start seeing how harley and james and all these people and oh right going like oh wow okay there's a space right in between and And that's the direction I want to go. And what were the conversations like with your old man

when you started pursuing it? You know, they weren't like, it's not supportive in the way like, oh, whatever you do, we like. But they responded to the work I was doing. And even the conversations, even the films that I started making that they had issues with, they were real conversations that they took seriously. It wasn't this thing where they were going like, oh, you have it

or you don't have it. It was just like, okay, this, yeah, there's something here or I have issues with this. I mean, I can't, like my parents just didn't lie about things, like how they felt about things. That's just not what they did. So they were very honest about it, but they took it seriously. And I also was confident about what I was making.

I started purchasing. I started gaining real confidence and feeling like, okay, whatever it's giving me is feeling worth it. And it's asking more and more and exciting me. So you did a bunch of short films first yeah exactly and then um i graduated with my senior film which is called kirk and carrie and uh wound up trying to figure out how to make a feature film and definitely new york city at that point was changing as well. And financially, it was becoming a totally different type of city.

But that was the next thing. And I really hadn't thought about what kind of feature films, but it was very much kind of just seeing one foot in front of the other. And I was also coming out in this certain era of New York City films that everything felt possible. It felt so distant, different, so far away from anything about awards or money or even to be making money. It felt so far away. So yeah, so that wasn't being taught yet, the business of films. No, no, there was nothing about business about film. There was no conversation about that. And who were you kind of looking towards when you started? What were the defining movies for you?

That were coming out during that particular time? Any time. I've been watching a lot of movies lately that I've never seen before. And I know people talk a lot about the 70s or this or that, but there's definitely movies that were definitely not on my radar at all, and I'm profoundly moved by them as, you know, even as I get older. It's like music. There's never, there's no end to the number of movies out there, and, you know, so many people land on the same dozen movies in terms of being influential. Just, But there's definitely, you must have movies that you, not unlike The Clash, that you saw and you're like, holy fuck.

Oh, yeah. I worked at this movie theater where I was a projectionist and popcorn maker and everything on Van Damme Street called La Cinematograph, right? It was with me and Jonah Kaplan, my roommate, who you know, because he made stalker guilt syndrome. Oh my God, Jonah Kaplan made the stalker guilt syndrome that I starred in. I don't know how he got me. I guess he was a fan of my comedy. Yeah. And when I saw it,

I was like, oh, there's the guy from Sidewalk Cafe, you know, because I'd walk by. And I was like, oh, and I told that to Jonah. I was like, yeah, I know. How's that guy doing? I think he's well. I hope he's well. I mean, we don't see each other that much, but, you know, he works at Vice and doing Vice News.

He's won a bunch of Emmys, and I think he's got a family. Yeah. Well, that's good. It worked out. He found a way. Yeah. Yeah, he did. And we worked together one summer at this movie theater that was an independent movie theater that we wound up having this retrospective of

cassavetes and each week somebody would come in to introduce the films so and it was always like it was ben gazzard one week then simon cassell and and Gina Rowlands you know like every week and I did not know these movies I did not I just didn't know them and we had the keys too so we could project these films after everybody was gone and just sit there and so John and I and other people from my class and purchase would go and watch these films late into the night and just with my mouth open obviously i know this is like clearly a uh an understood genius but for me the first time seeing those films especially that time i mean i can't even underestimate the amount of the fact that i had to see that kind of level of truth in film yeah i just yeah, I just rewatched

Woman Under the Influence, like a few weeks ago. It just stays alive. These films all stay alive. That's a good way to describe it. They stay alive. Yeah, and again, I think Hal Ashby for me is somebody that I always go back to. Oh yeah. And Altman is somebody,

these are people that whose films play in a loop in my head and then there's certain films like you know uh i've been since a little you know maybe since i saw i saw king of comedy in the theater when it came out but that's a film that i go back to all the time every couple years years and go, how is this film possible? It just seems, it just seems magic. Yeah. Yeah. So there are films that definitely have had life changing influences in that I keep thinking about and never trying to go, okay, can I make a film like that? But definitely have it.

I want to be in conversation with them or the movies that I make. I want those films to answer and at least thank them for giving me what i feel like they've given to me in my life yeah i was obsessed with mccabe and mrs miller for two decades yeah well some of these films just seem impossible but i mean for me popeye is the one that like i go back to popeye all the time it just seems like to that type of commitment to that world um taking it that seriously and that playfully like that that juxtaposition again going back to the clash like that mixture for me is like everything that i want and in the films that i make interesting that's the one popeye, because of the commitment to the conceit of it. Because it's so fantastical and it's so much about what this world is.

It's so, I recognize that world even though it's completely not ours. Huh. Do you think that had something to do with your connection with with comics well i think so i mean i think so i've been thinking about like one of the things that i would i would say has also been a huge influence to me on me has been radio like i would go to bed listening to old radio shows since i was a little kid so that was a huge connection that goes kind of straight into comic books because that's kind of how many, so many of those artists, those kind of golden age of the EC artists were working from and inspired by

and bring images even no matter how. And those, those radio shows are so, so wild and so surreal in their own ways. Right. And it lends itself straight into so much of the radio that I still listen to that I think has just as much of an influence, like Joe Frank or Gene Shepard. That Mad Magazine feel to things. That was the other thing. That was the other template for your brain. Mad Magazine.

That kind of way of seeing the world. And that really is like, I know I'm starting to sound insane about The Clash, but the Mad Magazine view of the world is very much kind of, I think goes straight into Strummer's view. Yeah, I loved it. I loved it.

Mad Magazine, if you were a Mad Magazine kid, it was just like, it was like the secret world. It was like, it was our entry into the way grownups think. Yeah, and it made everything that was popular just not cool at all. Like you're looking at cool kids and then they're not cool to you anymore. Like anything that seemed like it was this thing that you're looking at cool kids and then they're not cool to you anymore. Like anything that's that seemed like it was this thing that you're supposed

to want is suddenly you're had eyes on how ridiculous and how silly. Yeah. Planted the seeds of rebellion. Absolutely. But like, but like Popeye aesthetically, like, you know where you're at now,

we should talk about the last couple of movies and the evolution of your particular point of view. But like, like I watched a Taika Waititi movie recently, The Hunt for the Wilder People. And, you know, his sensibility is kind of amazing. Like, and, you know, he directed the Thor movie. Would you do a comic book movie? the Thor movie, would you do a comic book movie? If I could make part of the story, like the inventors and creators got completely fucked and uncredited.

Like if that could be part of the story, maybe. Like I'd want that to be part of it. Like, I don't know. I mean, that's not, I don't know anything really about those films. That's not the films that gravitate towards. I do kind of know a lot about where that world comes from and those stories of like the pain and like the immigrant story of some of those artists and how the bitter jews at the at the heart of the myth exactly that's

interesting to me and i'd want that to be somehow addressed like i don't know how you cannot tell those stories without kind of seeing the kind of fucked up past that they're they're based on no one talks about that an amazing i think these these people were trying to uh fight hitler with their work with these superheroes um in their own way and they're coming from just complete poverty. And there were the chances of becoming rich wasn't possible. So all that. This is a say like, no, like the superhero, I just don't really know enough. I did get to see Thor because I saw something about the advertising made me think of, oh, this is a person that likes Mad Magazine. And that's true. Like I found the I found that film really wonderful like and i found it very playful thor ragnarok yeah and i don't think it's something that i could do but i i found it i

like that anarchy that it had like and he clearly was able to make the film personal and it feels like a he has a strong point of view throughout he's an interesting filmmaker he's funny yeah but i don't know like that's not i can say that i would know enough and also i think with those superhero films i feel like you better come correct and serve their fans like those fans know that world better than anybody and so they're paying a lot of money to be there so why wouldn't you completely satisfy everything and right like it's like if somebody made a film on The Clash and I would just look at what everything was wrong.

You know, like I would know that. Maybe you should make the Clash superhero movie. Yeah. Well, yeah. But I mean, you know what I mean? Like they should be spoken to on the level that they are at. And that wouldn't be something I could even begin to dream of doing. These are people that live and breathe these comic books.

You don't want to piss them off. They're ready to get pissed off, dude. Yeah. But I can say that it's the thing that I know much about. Right. Well, now, okay, so the last few movies, when you talk about the evolution of, because like, let's just,

like Terry is that sort of personal story about that kid. And then The Lovers is something, The Lovers is sort of some sort of, I don't know stylistically, it's just very interesting contained tension of a strange evolution of a romance you know with these affairs and like you know but it it seems like there's the there's a real human story in there but there seems to be parameters to it that were very specific that you were working within

do you know what i mean it's completely contained no it was really i was i was using whatever limitations and wanted to use what the limitations have gone there's a choice it was but it was really, I was using whatever limitations and wanted to use what the limitations of it going. But it's a choice. It was, but it was also a way that I knew I could make that film. Like I wrote something to be small with a few actors. It's where I wanted to be. And it's what I felt like what I needed to tell at that point. It's a great movie.

And it's great. I mean, I love those actors. And I hadn't seen Debra Winger in a long time. And Tracy and I have become friends. I texted him yesterday about this movie because he's in it. Yeah. And I said he did a great job. Good.

But the French exit I really liked. But it is, I guess what I'm looking for is like, you know, and we're talking about these art films and paintings and about all the things we're talking about. about these art films and paintings and about all the things we're talking about, is that you have, again, this strange collection that seems to get bigger and bigger of humans. And the conceit to the movie is sort of like a, it's almost like an upper class fable in a way. And it's not like it necessarily, it's not that I've seen the story played out, but it seems familiar to me. But you have Michelle Pfeiffer, who is spectacular, and I haven't seen her in a long time, and she's doing something she's never done before. And you got that kid, Hedges, what's his first name? Lucas.

Who's like kind of a brilliant guy, brilliant actor. But like, I guess my question is around it and how it kind of unfolds is, you know, why this particular movie? You go from the lovers, like what was the evolution from the lovers to this? What were you trying to challenge yourself with? Well, definitely I liked that it took place,

instead of creating the world in, like, let's say, in The Lovers was inside this all, this middle-class home. Right. This was creating a world outside of the home. These are people that are leaving their home, and it's expanding, and it was something that was intimidating, and it was a place that I wanted to go to like I read and I don't overthink like I read Patrick DeWitt's novel French Exit and and immediately it was on instinct that is like okay this is what I where where I want to go and

then you kind of ask these questions of where is this personal to me? What is this connection as you're going along? But I think in retrospect, there's so much that I like about the kind of like take it or leave it or just fuck you attitude that Francis has that I would like to have in my own life that I wanted to be around. And I like the idea of telling a story, like not a quote unquote important story. It's not like a life and death story. It's life and eventual death. And, and that I relate to, like, it's not an underdog story. It's not, um, it's not somebody overcoming great obstacles in their life, but it is, I think, something, a really warm, funny world and interesting and serious and somber, all these the people that I wound up working with that the people the actors that would be attracted to doing this are exactly that type of actors that I really would like to to get a chance to work with and that began with like Michelle you know like that whole experience

of then going to cast going to Michelle and Tracy and Lucas and Imogen like suddenly this is the thing that I dream of doing, you know? And so that's, I think I saw that as a possibility with this story. Did their interest enable you to do the movie? Oh, completely. Like, you know, I was working in both ways. I was working on getting the financing together

and the financing would be together in terms of like who the cast wound up being, But then like there was definitely no chance of making the film. I don't know if there's no chance, but it became very, very clear. Like this was the path of making this film and this was the right path. I was, because the money came from different places

and came from abroad, right? It's a Canadian Irish co-production. I was able to have final cut on the film. And so that was a thing that was on top of everything was like, okay, how do I make sure that this isn't the film that I want to make? Cause there's a really different, very kind of on the surface reading. I think of the, of the book that you could have made that film like, and it's, it's, which could have been a fine film, but it's not the film I think of the, of the book that you could have made that film, like, and it's, it's,

which could have been a fine film, but it's not the film I wanted to see, you know, something maybe more, I don't know if it's whimsical or whatever, but less strange. And I really liked the strangeness of this people on this world and, uh, and wanted to embrace that my own way. Yeah. And I thought that that was sort of the amazing thing about it. And I guess the, the guy who wrote the book wrote the screenplay. Now, did you have, were you part of that process? Yeah. So Patrick, he wrote Terry and for whatever reason, like Terry brought us very close, but then in the past bunch of years now,

he's somebody that we speak every day. Like we just check in. A lot of times it's just the bullshit about random stuff, but sometimes it's more heavy. But we, for whatever reason, we really do kind of call each other every day. Somebody calls and checks in and I get to hear a little bit of what he's working on and I talk about what I'm working on. But it doesn't mean that I get to read sometimes before books are completely finished. And so I read this in a manuscript form and called them up and said, on but it doesn't mean that i get to read sometimes before books are completely finished

and so i read this in a manuscript form and called them up and said like i'd like to make this into a film and so that conversation of how can we turn this into a script happened even before the book was finished and then he would come over to new york or wherever i was and we'd work together and i'd send him off on his way. And then that kind of work on the script kept on going on. Once Michelle came on and Lucas, like when we had, we really embraced the book as much as we could. And so we'd go through the book, certain things that were missing or certain things that we felt could have been clarified.

Even more, we'd go back to Patrick and see if we can, you know, shift. And that would happen, I think, even sometimes during the shooting. So you you make a movie where it's going to exist, not unlike your your father's movies where, you know, they they are these singular things. And, you know, whether they please everybody is not really the issue. But do they stand on their own as as as on their own as a finished piece of work? But there's something that sneaks up on you about this movie. There's these questions where you're like, why are they all staying at this apartment? And I don't know why, but at some point you made a decision, Patrick made a decision that nobody leaves the apartment everyone's going to be sleeping at this apartment at some point why i don't know do you i i my own mind and again this is just my own answer but

i think that they find something it's the most interesting place to be you know i think that's what i think of these people what's interesting about all these characters is that they all are walking their own paths and i think that they feel i think of these people what's interesting about all these characters is that they all are walking their own paths and i think that they feel like they're the only ones interesting and then they find each other and they find this is the place that i want to be and it just seems like you just assume to be there um that just that makes sense to me in a illogical way it also seems like at the very base of it, like, yeah. But you're willing, but you had that conversation.

Yeah, definitely. I had that conversation, but also it wasn't questioned so much of going, why it was also creating a situation where you'd, where these characters would want to be there. It was a place, like it was where the was a place. It was where the activity was going. It was where the connection was. Yeah, I understand that. And it's not your job to ask why.

This is just the way this is. Yeah. And then the questions are asked by others later. Yeah, but trying to balance these kind of things that are sane or insane is what we're doing all day long in our own lives like things that just don't make sense and how do we put this into one place right we go to our instagram and we go oh that's horrible that happened oh that's amazing there's a cat this we

go back and forth and it all becomes one and we we just bottle this up into the same place and we make sense of it. So I feel like that's the same thing with these films for me at least. They have a logic to me and they have a logic also overall as a full thing where sometimes within a scene, and I especially feel this way with French Exit, there's things that happen all throughout the film that's not necessarily connected to the very next thing you're going to see. But when the film is finished as a whole, if it's your type of thing, if it's, you know, vibe with you, that you're going to see it as a full piece. And I know it's not for everybody. Like, I understand that when I'm making these films that here's, that's not the idea. It's like, I want it to find its audience, but I also know it's a really particular story.

And, you know, like a filmmaker, you're kind of half in the room all the time. You're looking at story all the time. You're like, oh, how could I take this in? How could this be mine? How can I, you're not fully there to the way that when you're working with an actor and you see them surrounded by all these people in these clothes you know on whatever time and they become completely present it seems impossible it just seems like magic it's just amazing to me how and i and it forced me to become completely present it's the only time when i'm making a film where i'm not thinking about emails or any oh yeah when you go on when you say action the it's mad it's a whole it changes time it does but not all the time like i and it doesn't happen

sometimes right you're watching films or you're on the set and things are just dead and you're going, how can I get present? And how can I be there? And when it does happen and when you see, especially with like the actors that I wound up working with French exit, and it just happened every day, all the time where suddenly it's action and they are there in that moment. And then I'm in the edit room and I'm seeing all these choices that there's no way I could have seen that they're all making and they're all in tune with themselves and with each other. That's a great moment, right?

It's what it's all about for me. That's it. It seems that's when you feel like, okay, with or without me, this film will walk on its own and and it's been so long since we'd seen michelle what what were what were those initial conversations about was she nervous she says she was i was very nervous i mean look she had a completely different way of working than i had worked before and i I remember like Tracy Letts on A Lover, he called me on it, right?

Where he'd go, he'd ask me a question and I'd answer him with a question. And he'd go, oh, I know what you're doing. Like you, you, you, you put a question to all my questions. And I was like, yeah, you know, cause then together we would work on figuring out the answer and that would become his answer. And it seemed like a technique. It seemed like my technique. Right. And Michelle wasn't playing with that at all. Like I would kind of, she'd ask me a question and I would ask her questions being what, like, no,

like, what do you think? And, and I realized that she wasn't asking me like, what do I think? So that she could think it, but what do I think about this? And like, she expected me to have thought of an of something about it and it forced me to go back to my home and to write out every question that I could think of and answer them for myself and I always thought this was like a precious thing that you can't touch you can't come up with these answers this is supposed to be alive. Right.

It turns out that that for me was just me being kind of cowardly. Like I liked having these things to, to ask myself. Interesting. So it was, it was sort of like your idea of what that was, was a cop out. Yeah.

Ultimately I think that it was a, it was a, it was a, it was lazy. Right. But it was also a way to protect yourself from a sense of failure in a way. That if you just let it go, I'm not going to answer these questions. And then if something great happens, you're like, amazing.

But if you got the questions answered and you can't manifest, then you're like, ah, fuck. You're right. You know, and when I went to AFI, we had to take an acting class and I was getting directed by a, and I'm a terrible actor. Like I have no idea. I know that I'm not an actor, but I was doing a scene and then I asked the director something and they started bullshitting me. And I was like, oh shit shit actors can see this vantage point you can really see bullshit it's so clear like i have to remember to say i don't know from here on

because that's what meant so much more to me than somebody just trying to wing it and so that was like the way that would go like if i don't have the answer i don't know that's a good question blah blah blah let's go this but didn't mean but ultimately that wound up me kind of not preparing in a way that i'd like to i learned that oh i can without actually touching this thing that i stopped was like a precious right uh what tracy calls pixie dust you know like which is not real he's like you know he i remember him saying that about the the his connection with deborah winger uh you know in in the lovers and he's like it's not pixie dust it's like it's what we do it's work like that's that's what acting is and uh it took me a bit to

learn he's one of those guys man he's like you know he's he's a he's a he's got a work ethic he's like this is the this is the craft we've been doing it all our lives yeah and you know we turn it on and off we've we've prepared and we work and that voice you're doing is the voice i hear in my head still and so when i read tracy. And when I saw like, that's why he was small Frank, I read and I heard this voice of this guy that kind of had a very, this is the way that I'm doing things. And all I could hear was his voice. So that was an easy call to go Tracy. Hey, would you voice? Yeah.

Your voice is already playing in my head. Yeah. I thought you did a great job, man. And it's good seeing you again. Yeah, I hope to hope one of these days in person. Yeah, we can hang out again. And like, you've been healthy. Did you get the COVID or no? No, I didn't. And I'm trying not to.

I was able to get my parents their first shot a couple of weeks ago. And they've come back. Yeah, so I mean they'll be going for their second one pretty soon. So yeah, it's just you know. Plugging along. Yeah, trying.

Well, it's great to see you, man. And I love the movie and it was nice talking to you. Thank you so much. This means a lot to me. Alright, buddy. I'll see you soon. See ya. Okay, that was me. All right, buddy. I'll see you soon. See ya. Okay, that was nice. Interesting film art talk. Azza's movie

The French Exit starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Lucas Hedges opens in theaters across this country this Friday, April 2nd. Good movie. Great Pfeiffer movie. Great.

Okay, now let's play some guitar. Thank you. Boomer lives Monkey in La Fonda Cat angels everywhere Sammy has landed. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

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