WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1214 - Daniel Kaluuya

Episode Date: April 1, 2021

Daniel Kaluuya doesn't want to stop the journey. Getting nominated for Oscars, winning a Golden Globe, hosting Saturday Night Live. These are moments within the journey, but he doesn't want any of them to feel bigger than the journey itself. Daniel and Marc talk about this life perspective, how he draws a lot of it from his family in London and Uganda, and how he incorporated it into his portrayal of Black Panther Chairman Fred Hampton in Judas and the Black Messiah. They also talk about Sicario, Get Out and his improv days. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. Today on the show, I talked to Daniel Kaluuya. You know him from the films Get Out, Black Panther, Queen, and Slim. He won a Golden Globe for his portrayal of Fred Hampton in Judas and the Black Messiah, and he's nominated for the Best Supporting Actor Academy Award. And he's nominated for the Best Supporting Actor Academy Award. Big time, man. I talked to him. He was in, where was he when I talked to him?

He was here, wasn't he? Why can't I remember anything? What's going on with my head? Why is every day a month? Why is every day a week? How did that thing you made turn out? Did it turn out okay? I mentioned a painting last week,

and a painting that means something to me, of the door of the Air America studio. And I know who painted it. It was painted by Kristen Anderson Barrick. She was a fan of the show. She made the painting. It's now hanging in my house, along with other stuff. Painting by Scotty Young of me interviewing Fozzie Bear.

I've got a Drew Friedman caricature of me. These are my prized possessions art-wise. Very exciting. That's what I've been doing. I've been trying to set up that office, and I like sitting up there. It's coming along well. But I have a lot of stuff, man. It's like this never ending process of going through a lifetime's worth of stuff. All my stuff has never really been in one place like it is now.

I had a lot of this stuff in the garage, but I also had a storage unit. So now everything of me is around. unit. So now everything of me is around. And there's a lot of stuff that I feel like there's pressure to be emotionally connected to it, like paraphernalia from TV shows I've done and stuff, like the backs of chairs. And I don't know what to do with that stuff. I don't really want to make a trophy case. I don't know what to, I'm not going to hang this stuff up i don't know there's only a few things i want to be reminded of i have what i've glow calendars and glow paraphernalia that i mean i did that show and i think that the show itself is enough for me to be connected to but all this all these little tchotchkes and things they build up over the years things people send me fan art tchotchkes

things from shoots uh laminates all that there how do you decide what you really give a shit about or what you're emotionally attached to you go through it and you realize like oh okay yeah i remember this right that was when uh oh that was that wasn't a great. But I have all these notebooks full of stuff. I'm never going to read them, but you feel this desire to hold on to them. So now I come up with this great idea. I'm going to file everything. That's my solution. No more stacks.

Files. I'm going to file things under little notebooks, big notebooks, legal pad pages from different points in time. My stamp collection. You didn't know I had a stamp collection, did you? I didn't either. I kind of did, but I didn't really think about it much. But I was one of these people. I still kind of am sometimes, but I haven't lately.

If I'd go to the post office and I'd see a nice kind of cool new panel of stamps, you know, they're all in one of, you know, the sheet of stamps. For a while there, they were doing actually pictures with the stamps themselves. I've got some of that stuff from several years ago. Who's it worth anything to? What am I going to do with it? Like I have things where I look at it's like this is probably a collector's item. I could probably sell this for a lot of money.

Somebody would want this. I don't know what to do with it. I keep it not because I'm emotionally attached to it, but because I know somebody else might want it. I could just throw it away or I can throw it back into the great tide pool of used garbage. That's all you could always do. I could always do that. Who am I calling you? I could just put some of that stuff into a goodwill thing, but that backfired once on me.

I put a poster that somebody sent me or a piece of art, a framed thing. I gave it to goodwill and it made it back to the guy and it was very insulting. So all books that are signed, that are sent to me and signed i have to keep all pieces of art i have to keep but the stuff that isn't labeled as such maybe i should go lowball it give it to goodwill and let somebody discover it and be like what an amazing find how rare do you find this what would that be this is a notebook of Mark Maron's writings. Who? Mark Maron.

This is a little moleskin notebook that I got at the, I found it at Goodwill. So you can't write in it. You found a filled up notebook at Goodwill and you bought it. It's Mark Maron's. I don't know that guy. Mark Maron, the comedian, this is his scribblings. You can't read them. But I know it's his because he put his name at the front of the book.

This is so cool. Mark who? How much you pay for it? $2. $2 for a notebook you can't use? It's Mark Maron's. I don't know who that is. Maybe I'll keep it.

I'll file it. I have a panel of Star Wars stamps. I have a panel of Jimi Hendrix stamps. I have some John Lennon stamps from another country. I didn't know I was a stamp collector, but clearly I have a small, probably highly valuable collection of stamps. I have the Blues Master stamps. I have the superhero stamps. I just buy them on the way out. I don't know. What are they worth, man? I have the commemorative stamps of Charles and Diana's wedding. Yeah, I bought those when I was in Europe at the time of their wedding. I was in France as a younger man. And I'm like, those commemorative stamps, they're going to be worth some money.

I guess it's just in my head. I had a stamp. I had the stamp collecting book. I had my dad's stamp collection when I was a little kid. And then I had the little collection where you had to have those weird little sticky, the little hinges that you had to lick and put one on back of the stamp and one in your stamp book. I never had anything valuable. You're just waiting, man. Maybe someday, maybe someday I'll find the upside down plain stamp.

Maybe the upside down plain stamp is in my future. That's what trains people to find garbage that's worth millions of dollars. It starts you young. It's like stamp collecting, coin collecting. Maybe you'll be the one to find the gold doubloon from the pirate booty. Huh? Maybe you'll be the one to find the Hitler stamps. Huh?

Maybe it'll be you. This will set you in on a lifetime of poking through shit at flea markets and goodwill's. Maybe you'll find that, that thing at that garage sale that's worth a billion dollars. Hey, what is this? What's this? What's on this napkin? Is that, does that say Picasso? Shh. How much is the napkin? The napkin with the doodle? How much is the napkin? How much is the napkin? The napkin with the doodle? How much is the napkin?

How much? $2? Shh. Holy shit, dude. Here you go. Thank you. It's a fucking Picasso napkin. Dude.

This is going to be... Dude. It's a fucking Picasso napkin. We're taking it over to MoMA today. Yeah, hi. Is there somebody here we can talk to about this napkin? It's a Picasso napkin. No. Isn't this MoMA?

Museum of Modern Art? Yeah, but this is just for tickets to get in. I got a Picasso napkin. Check it out. Dude, show them the Picasso napkin. $2 we paid for it. Okay. Do you guys want to go into the museum?

Who do we talk to about this Picasso napkin? Maybe you go to an appraiser of some kind? That napkin doesn't look old enough to be a Picasso napkin. It's totally a Picasso napkin. Okay, do you guys want to step aside so i can help these people hey listen this is an interesting thing when i was talking uh last week or whenever it was monday about how i have that feeling of like

wow this is great and it's coupled with the feeling of like what difference does it make doesn't matter like any joy that i have is tempered by the idea that you know um who cares we're all gonna die it's meaningless but i feel but i love it doesn't matter it's gonna go away that and my producer brendan thought it might be trauma which is possible might be just straight up existential observation or neurosis which is which has been with me a long time but someone brought up and this is a spin that i enjoy and i wouldn't have thought of they said the meditation is working like that is the first step to realizing everything just is. And you're in it in the moment that you can look at life as it is all at once.

And that is enlightenment. So when I go, man, man, I feel pretty good, but who cares? It's going to be over soon. I'm on the verge of enlightenment. Don't call me negative. I'm about to be a fucking Buddha, baby of enlightenment don't call me negative i'm about to be a fucking buddha baby and don't shoot me if you find the buddha kill him don't kill me though i'm never going to be a real buddha come on i'm not going to let myself get that heavy so sammy the cat is now

officially out of his fucking mind. Full on cat. Does a sideways crab walk. Sideways Sammy. I've got this bathroom with this weird tile and it seems to fuck with his head. So he does a sideways crab walk. The hoppy crab sideways Sammy. And Buster and Sammy are starting to do a thing together.

Getting to know each other, which means Buster kind of pops him in the head a couple of times sammy rolls over on his back gets submissive lays himself out and basically says come on man it's just me and you we're the only cats in the house what are you gonna be a dick to me i mean i'll take it for a little while but let's fucking jam let's fucking get on with this let's have some fun old man buster's like i'm not old man i'm only five yeah well i'm fresh i'm fucking two months old so you're old bro let me fucking run you ragged hey just take it down a notch punk hey don't hit me like that i'll fucking stand right i'll take it i'll take it look at me look at me i'm. I'm taking the hit. I'm still right here, bro. I'm still right here.

All right, all right. I get it. Just relax. Hey, leave my tail alone. Hey, leave my tail. You want to go? That's what's happening. Reminds me of many of the relationships I've been in.

Just waiting for them to realize I'm just annoying and it's going to be that way. And either you love me or you don't. Daniel Kaluuya is here on this show. The new movie is Judas and the Black Messiah. He plays Fred Hampton. He's great

in it. He's great in everything he does. You've seen him in a lot of things. Get Out, Black Panther, Queen and Slim. He's an Academy Award nominated actor right now for best supporting. Just won the Golden Globe. And I enjoy talking to him. So this is, I'm going to share it with you. I'm going to share it with you right now. All right. He's also about to host Saturday Night Live this weekend. Talk about that too. We talked about a lot of stuff. He's also about to host Saturday Night Live this weekend. Talk about that, too. We talked about a lot of stuff. It's surprising. You'll be surprised at who influenced him the most. Listen up. Me and Daniel Kaluuya. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance,

you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need. And policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+.

18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hello. hello hey man what an honor it is an honor it is an honor for me sir wow feelings mutual i think i saw you where's that on sunset the comedy the comedy store yeah yeah yeah is that the red one yes yeah the dark horrific castle of dark comedy the yeah i didn't i didn't see you perform but i saw you when i was walking in because i think i was switching neil brennan and yes that makes sense and donnell donnell rowlands was on that show donnell yeah neil yep that that would have been me but you remembered me walking by because i was exuding negative energy or was I pleasant?

Did I say hi? No, I just know your face. I listen to your podcast. I know your face. It's so funny when your assistant was like making sure that we weren't using any video. But she was sort of like, you're not using anything. I'm like, no, we don't use any video. It always is weird to me because I'm like, do we not know something?

Is he going to show up without hair? What is happening? Is there an alien? Exactly. Me without all the makeup, man. I'm not from here. Yeah.

You're worried. Did you move here? I'm not still, I'm still on the move. I'm not, I'm still figuring out where my base is. I go back and forth to LA and London, but it's weird because of the pandemic.

Yeah. Nothing usually shoots in LA. So LA is just a place to be, and then you go to, I don't know, Cleveland or Chicago. And now because of the pandemic, not a lot of things are filming. Right. So you're just in LA or in London.

So you're in one place for a period of time. Hanging around. Hanging around. Hanging around. But I don't mind it. I kind of like it. Yeah, I think I understand retirement. I didn't think I would, but I think I do now. I think I understand.

Are you thinking about retirement now? Is that where you space your head in? I think what I'm thinking about is I'm pretty good at doing nothing. I don't mind just having the whole day to think and dick around in my house or do little things i don't i don't mind it you yeah i love it it's one of my favorite things in the world i realize in this pandemic i realize i actually like me i can't really like i like i think i'm pretty chill i like what i'm into so i kind of like oh that's interesting that's interesting i'll go into this direction that direction i i and then like it will just you wake up i wake up really

early so wake up like 6 a.m and then 4 p.m comes and i've just not really done much and but i've done a lot but it's like more just like going wandering here and there yeah i especially love the beginning of the pandemic because no one really knew how to work right or do anything so it was kind of like you had more you time yeah because no one was doing anything you didn't have to be in a competition you didn't have to resent anybody it was just sort of like level playing field everyone's terrified and not working yeah that was uh that's usually that's that's how the western society works yeah so look congratulations on winning the prize, the Golden Globe Prize. Thank you.

Thanks, Mark. Was that something? How could that not be great? It's exciting, right? Even if you pretend like you don't care, you do care, right? What's caring? Well, I mean, does it mean something to you? Mark, the journey's the goal.

You know what I'm saying? That's how I feel. That's how I feel. It's kind of like, oh, wow, look how far I've come, is how I kind of process those kind of moments. You're like, wow. It's such a kind of – I see it more as checkpoints and go, wow, this is like, wow.

I really was just like saying to a friend at a bus stop that I wanted to do this. And now I'm in a house in LA winning the globe. That, that, that, that, that you go, wow, that's what you kind of take in the kind of like,

it's such a moment where like, this has happened. I think that's true. Yeah. So in terms of the globe in, in, it's really interesting. Cause I,

I, it's like you win the golden globe, but because it was at your house, you didn't have the experience of winning the golden globe. You didn't actually have the whole thing around it so it's a very different experience in that sense i think i actually liked it i just vibed out just chilled and yeah it's a it is a very odd uh reality that you know no dressing up no red carpet no photographs no people going daniel over here daniel over here daniel dan, over here, Daniel, over here, Daniel, Daniel, over here, Daniel.

You missed that part. But that's the weird reality. That's a weird reality as well. The norm is weird. That's my thing. It's like, when I was in the first row of the car, people were shouting at me, smile, smile. I'm like, no. Daniel, over here, at the hand, Daniel, snapping their finger.

It's like, if you want to see someone smile, tell a joke. Tell a joke. Don't joke let's say smile what kind of smile are you getting oh you got you got it you got to work on the smile i never was able to uh to kind of uh figure out what the exact red carpet photo shoot smile was i always have my mouth half open i'm never happy with it but some people you notice they they obviously have the fucking smile nailed they got it worked out they know exactly what muscles to do they, they obviously have the fucking smile nailed. They got it worked out. They know exactly what muscles to do. They have a set smile.

You don't have one? You haven't put any thought into that? No, I haven't put any thought into that. Good, good, good. I just kind of go, let me keep the neutral face. Let me just go. Neutral face. That's good.

And then we're out. Right. If you make me smile, you make me smile. I just want it to be natural. Whatever it is, I want it to be natural. I think neutral face is good. I go with the closed mouth smile that's my that's what i do this the slight grin you know like this that's what they call it the smiles right

the smiles yeah something like that i i don't know what it is it's it's just it's just short of being angry there's a kind of slightly no that's not true i i i kind of constipated is what you're saying it's a kind of constipated sure okay true i i i kind of constipated is what you're saying it's a kind of constipated sure okay yeah fine yeah i'm not letting the joy out if that's what constipated means you are not letting shit go you are not letting shit go i do hold on to some shit in my heart there buddy yeah yeah yeah so i was wondering about like how to start this because like i always like i've been talking to english people lately, and I seem to be getting along with them better. I don't know when that happened, but it wasn't that I was judgmental of English people.

I just always assumed that there was some part of me that when I was younger that the way they talked made me believe they thought they were better than me. Whereas opposed to it's just the way British people talk. So it's gotten much better, and I've been surprised lately by my British experience. I had Hugh Grant on, and that guy made me laugh a lot. I was not expecting that at all. Have you ever met that guy? No, I've never met him, but I'm seeing these recent interviews. That guy looks like a real guy, Hugh Grant.

He's a funny guy. Yeah, yeah, but he has like an authenticity to him that I was quite surprised about. Yeah too oh man he's a he's a real brother yeah i kind of like his energy yeah i think that was uh i don't think he was always that but i think it's come to that but i have no sense of the city or how people you know grow up there or live there can can you tell me like what part of town you grew up in what you know what was, what was the story? I grew up in Camden town. Well, Camden. And that's part of London.

It's part of London, Northwest London. And like, so basically on the borderline, I grew up on the borderline, Camden, Israel grew up on a, would you,

what you guys would call a project. Oh really? And then, so yeah, housing, like we call it, we call it estates. That's a much nicer name. yeah,

I'm realizing now, but the thing is that was thinking that's estates it's kind of like when when you're honest when i'm in my memory of an estate i never called it in the state you'd call it flats yeah call it the flats and stuff so i think the estate came like when i was like more late teens then i think that's what middle class and upper class people call it so then you just go oh yes the estates but then we started calling them estates. But I don't know, but I just remember

I didn't really consciously call it, oh, that estate, that estate. It sounds like something they labeled them to feel better about themselves. And yeah, like rough area, Camden. Yeah. A lot of characters. A lot of grew up around a lot of people.

You got brothers and sisters? I've got an older sister. Yeah. I've got a couple. Yeah yeah yeah a couple yeah got a couple i got two sisters in uganda yeah you got three sisters in uganda no two sisters in uganda really yeah have you do you travel there have you been there yeah i've been there i've been there a couple times like um but when you go there you go there like six weeks ago so go. So you're just there. So it was quite an intense time. You can't just, it's not a weekend trip. No, you've got too many family. I've got too much family for all that. I've got too many family.

You have to basically, you're down and you're visiting probably three homes a day in like two weeks. And then you can have a break and a holiday. But it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You're seeing everyone giving gifts, seeing everyone giving gifts and saying hello boom boom eating food yeah you're getting a lot of weight you eat a lot of food who lives there from your family your two sisters and you just have a sister yeah and your father's there no no he's dead oh he's dead when did that happen that happened when i was a kid yeah sorry buddy no that's all right it's all right you're doing in school but uh So the sisters are there.

Now, when was the first time you went there to Uganda? Seven years old. Seven years old. And did you go back later in life? Yeah, I went back seven, went back again at 15, went back again at 22. And went there big chunks of time. And going to Uganda really changed my perspective on life. I can't imagine.

You kind of go there and then you know, it is. I went there when the first time when I was seven reality check electricity cut out. Right. So reality as a seven year old, like you kind of I'm watching football, watching on my team's arsenal. Yeah. Yeah. Football. And then I'm like, yeah, I can't believe I'm in Africa and I'm watching football, watching on my team's Arsenal, yeah? Yeah. Watching football. And then I'm like, yeah, I can't believe I'm in Africa

and I'm watching football. Then electricity cuts out. Yeah. I'm sitting there to my cousin. I was like, what happened? He said, the electricity cuts out. I said, well, put it back on. He said, we can't.

I said, why? He said, because it's out. I said, when is it coming back? He said, I don't know. Bro, I cried so deeply bro i was like what's happening and then an hour later i was like right they put some candles out we started speaking we started talking i was like oh wow i didn't really need to it's not needed like electricity it's just like it's a it's a tool it's not necessarily but you i was made to feel

that way i was i felt that way at seven right i felt that way and it just educated tool. It's not necessarily, but I was made to feel that way. I felt that way at seven. I felt that way. And it just educated me. Like, that's not the case. I just had a lot of experiences that challenged my perception. And then that, like the way I live my life is just a way. It's not the way.

And yeah. Well, it must be completely different culturally down there. I have no idea what, I have no idea. It takes me a long time to learn the history of anything. I just had, you know, Serge Tankian on, who is in the system of a down, the band, and he's Armenian. And he had to educate me about Armenia. I don't like, I guess it's because I live in the United States and I'm, you know, I have a sort of entitled brain or whatnot. But I have absolutely no sense. And I guess you probably didn't either when you were seven,

what Uganda would be like. I had a sense of the vibe and the energy because when I grew up, essentially in your house is Uganda. It's a Ugandan culture. It's a Ugandan vibe. So it was like a country version of my home. Right, right. And then so then, yeah, and I was like, and then I was there.

It was just, yeah, it was just a reality check and kind of like, but I just didn't see it. I'm the kind of person that I just go and go, oh, if this is where I'm at, what does this say where I'm at? I rarely go into things with expectations. I just accept what's happening and i'm going i keep moving forward well how is it different what is it what is the government like down there i mean is it uh is it uh dictatorship or what is it down there do you know i mean yeah no no it's my seven is in charge there's a whole bobby wan situation

yeah um and then it's uh it's tough my seven has has been in charge for a very long time. And so I'm not into like, oh, I don't like study. Like I took in a couple of things during the last election. So I know the bare bones, but I wouldn't say I'm skilled enough to kind of speak about it on a public platform. So I really want to go into that space if I'm not fully equipped. But needless to say, it's not a democracy per se. Yeah, he's had power for a while. Let's say that.

He's had power for a while. Because when I was growing up, when I was a little kid, I remember when Idi Amin was culturally the guy in charge because he made such a global sort of impact. Like everybody knew who edie amin was it was crazy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah my mom met him really your mom met him yeah i remember when last king of scotland came out yeah i was like oh my mom's king scotland and she goes oh i met him what do you mean now you tell me that you met me i mean like now it's like what happened

it's like she's happened? It's like, she's like, yeah, he visited my primary school, which is like an elementary school. Like he visited and she shook his hand. I said, what was he like?

He said, he was big. It's like, yeah, I can see that. If you're a little girl, I can see how that makes sense. But,

but yeah, so, yeah, so yeah, like, do you know what I mean? I don't like, the stuff I haven't, there's people in my life that I've kind of been exposed to.

I'm like, oh, like I need, I want to arrive to it from an independent thought and perspective as opposed to, because a lot of things in life, you kind of just, you've only heard through other people's opinions on what they think. So I kind of wanted to really educate myself on that when I got, when I got some time. And so, yeah, but yeah. Did you do it or you haven't yet? I haven't yet. I've like, I know stuff is if I watched last King of Scotland, I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a director's point of view. Sure. I mean, that's the, that's a narrator's point of view about it, you know? So it's that kind of go, I kind of go, I'll take that, but I,

how can I have an opinion on Idi Amin if I've watched a film or a couple articles or heard a couple stories that I've just stumbled across, you know, as opposed to purposely go, oh, I want to grow more about this. I want to learn more about this. Well, so did your mother left before she could really have an assessment of his leadership or what he did to the country? How old was she when she left? She, I don't know how old she was. She left just before I was born. Just before I was born when she left she um i don't know how old yeah she left just before i was born

so really when she left yeah so um what did she leave did she run away or did she just want to move i know it was a light jog it was a light she's just like i mean she's late for the plane is what happened so she's like let me jog let me jog my way to the airport like uh while i was pregnant um but uh but yeah no she just wanted more opportunities she's wanting more for me oh yeah more for her family and and she just decided yeah let's go and um what did she do when you were going up for work she like she works with kids she was special needs kids so she did that yeah she's got great energy she must be proud of you she's cool man she's like she's she's tough she's tough like everything like i got my birthday a few weeks ago and then she was sent me a birthday card and was like it was like yo it's amazing

and she never congratulated me without saying, I hope you know what's next. We're looking forward to seeing what's next. Oh, the pressure. I wouldn't even know what it is. I used to feel it was pressure. Now it's like, you know what? It's the truth.

Because like a lot of time you get these kinds of instances and it's not, it's not necessarily the thing. If anything comes quickly, it's not the thing. I mean, it's like, it's like, all right,

cool. So like when people ask me before Oscar nominated and that, I was like, yeah, it's like a, it's like a masters. I mean, it's like you get a masters.

It's not like you've completed life. Cause you've got a masters. What are you going to do with it? Right. That's how I see these like checkpoints in my my life i'll go oh wow this is incredible this fact is coming now there's a master p quote he said if this white man thinks i'm worth 1 million then i'm least worth 10 and i see that as the same principle going oh wow if this has come to me now and what else can i get interesting what else is there so and i think that's a mentality that she really um

instilled in me i think that's that's like my sentence because of she's just like is there more yeah you know don't settle are you able to grow yeah it's like it's like are you a bigger tree uh-huh like you don't like are you gonna go this is this one height are you a bigger tree you're never gonna tell a tree stop growing that's saying how big how big can you grow bigger tree? You're never going to tell a tree, stop growing. How big can you grow? If a tree grows really big, at a certain point, you're not going to go, oh, well, you're big enough. You're going at your own. Yeah.

You know, eventually you say, we could build a house out of this. Yeah. Exactly. I'm going to chop it down, i.e. capitalism. Exactly. There you go. We can spread this tree out without it being alive. Yeah. Yeah.

Let's make some paper. Let's make some money. A lot of paper. Exactly. Cut this tree and make some money. So, yeah. So it's that. It's interesting what you say about Idi Amin in terms of trying to find a point of view

on him for yourself, because it strikes me that I barely knew the Fred Hampton story. You know? that I barely knew the Fred Hampton story. You know, I knew, like, when I watched the movie, I'm like, oh, I know this story, kind of. I remember this. But I had no specifics of it. And I wonder, you know, like,

how did you inform yourself or make his experience your experience in the way that you were satisfied in terms of taking him on that's a really interesting question can you say that again like in what sense do you mean i mean in the sense that like in the way that you were just talking about edie like you know you hear a lot of stories you read a lot of you know is that you know but you you don't really necessarily know if you have your own opinion of him or know enough about him to talk about him from your own point of view but it seems like in order to play Fred Hampton that you would have to really absorb

a lot in order to you know become him from from internally and I was just wondering you know where did that start and how did you do that because now whether you like it or not you're going to be intrinsically you know tied to Fred Hampton in the sense in the cultural mind because a lot of people don't know that story a lot of young people don't know that story and you're going to be their point of reference and it's interesting you did you did a a great job i thought and and i i was just curious given the way you think and and your sort of uh um your passion for the present, you know, how did you start the work on that? It's scary work. Yeah.

If I'm being honest with you, it's to, because I think what you're hinting on is that you get to a point where you have to make a decision and go, this is, this is, this is it. And this is as much as I know at this point. This is the guy. And then we're going to move forward. And you know what I mean? And we're going to have to move forward in a certain direction.

I think because Shaka King, the director of Judah's incredible director, he like, he, I remember he mentioned that the Black Panther had a reading list. So I asked him for the reading list. So in order to be a fully fledged Panther, you needed to go on six weeks of political education.

So I had this reading list. I was reading the reading list before, way before shoot. And I was just taking it in before the green light. I was just of let me i would i wanted to read it anyway like what was i reading it it was like chairman mao uh marcus garvey uh france fernand uh a lot of um communist uh-huh left-wing fascinating teachings yeah and strategies and outlooks and ideas and concepts and perspectives. Interesting. And I was just taking all that stuff in.

And then like Malcolm X was on it as well. Malcolm X biography. And I was taking all that stuff in and I was like, oh, it got to a point where I can't stop being in my head about it. Yeah. I was reading it in order to kind of, I didn't want to look at the Panthers and at Chairman Fred. I wanted to look with the Panthers and with Chairman Fred.

But it gets to a point where you're going to have to step up and embody him. Yeah. Be that vessel for him and look at him as an individual and do the words and go for the voice. And yeah, so you start that. And then Shaka did an incredible job by pushing me. I think a year before the shoot,

we did the speeches. We did these actual speeches. A year? A year before the shoot, we did these actual speeches. When I hadn't done any dialect work, I hadn't done anything, it was just a guesstimate.

And then we did that and then we recorded it and it was a lot. It was so important. It took me a month to watch it back because I was nervous. But no, I was nervous. I just knew the minute I watch it, I'll start working. I'll start going, that's not, I want to fine tune that.

I want to fine tune this. This doesn't sound like him. This doesn't sound like him. But it was so important to do it. And then watching it, it was like, it was never as bad as I thought it was going to be. I mean, and then you just kind of go, all right, cool. This is manageable.

And then we just built from there. But yeah, with Audrey LeCron, incredible dialect coach, did a lot of work in looking at his speeches and X, Y, Z. And then I took myself to Chicago, went to Maywood, went to his hometown, went to his old schools and his old homes all these all these places and it was

it's like it's like a treasure hunt you don't actually know what you're looking for yeah you know you like you don't know you just know i want to be in a space i want to be an environment that allows me to think in a certain way you know saying it allows me to make decisions and grow something and move me right cellularly move me and spiritually move me in his kind of his space because i would look at his speeches and go i want to move an audience the way i feel moved by him were you able to understand the social and political momentum and message of of the panthers in in terms of truly believing them? I think I believed it beforehand. I just didn't have those words.

I didn't have those. I wasn't exposed to that material. But I knew being a young black man navigating a Western society, it might be in a majority white space most times, there is a frustration, especially if you love yourself, especially if you respect yourself.

There is a frustration of the resistance that you get from that. You know what I mean? And it creates an energy that I feel the Panther Party represented. So me taking that in, it allowed me to, it was almost soothing to me. It was like, it made me feel less crazy. It made me feel like, yeah, like I don't feel like I'm wild to be in a world commanding what my spirit is. I'm just being what I am.

You know what I'm saying? I'm not even, it's like, it's the audacity for people to believe that it's theirs to give to me yeah i mean how can you give that to me yeah how like it's like it's i am that if and that and and so they and they embodied that they had the words for that they had this the the kind of strategies and the plans for that and they did it through feeding kids you know saying feeding kids with a breakfast program with with educating kids, with like free medical care,

you know what I mean? In Chicago, with like all the number, and with the Rainbow Coalition, it was just like, it was a level of empowerment. So it was just like, oh wow, this already happened. My feelings already happened.

People already did it. It's just deepened what was already there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's how I felt. It's more in my body. It's more was already there yeah yeah yeah it's how i felt it just it's more in my body it's more in my yeah yeah yeah i mean it's like it's like it shows how dangerous fear can be right when people are scared when people these people are scared yeah these people are petrified and it's dressed as hate it's dressed as as hate, but it's the naked body is fear. That's probably what is opened,

not opened, deepened. I know this. It's not something that I'm like, I'm like, I've like learned. It's like something navigating, really navigating and really in London, really occupying the black spaces. And it's probably,

and it's, you know, England's a white country. So it's, it's quite pronounced over there with that discrepancy, but probably in a more subtle, polite way that, um, um, the oppression, but it's, um, the, yeah, it's, uh, you, you, you know, what, what they was possible and what they can do. If, if fear takes in, if fear takes the driving seat, I'm very, I if fear takes in if fear takes the driving seat right very i know everything is possible if it takes the driving seat yeah i i like i just

recently have become more in the last five years the difference between the the the sort of class system and also between you know colonialism and slavery being the foundation of the racism in the two different countries. Like, you know, I don't know why I would never have... I guess I didn't grow up understanding colonialism or really taking in the damage that that sort of reaped on the whole thing. Yeah, because, you know, British are great.

Their branding budget in terms of racism is amazing so it's like like um so they make you feel like you feel like that ain't really happening you know what i'm saying it's like it's not really happening you know it's god it's christianity boom feel this book and it's god this and this listen to this yeah yeah yeah we just want we just want all everything we want everything we'll give you independence we'll give you independence independent independent but we control everyone whatever the independent you know no no no no no you're free you're free it was in the 60s you're free so it's like um and and so yeah it's there's a i speak english i mean so it's uh it's uh you speak english you know and you're not in england

you know that's there's a lot happening you mean that's in plain sight i so it's it's you speak English, you know, and you're not in England. You know, that's there's a lot happening in plain sight. I mean, it's like so it's it's just like you got to just look and look at what we're doing. I mean, it's like and and yeah, that's the power of of that way, level of thinking and how deep the intention is from that space. The empire runs deep yeah yeah yeah it's just and then i think true revolution is internally revolting that yeah internally just saying and going no no no i don't buy by that i don't buy by that i don't buy but you in order to revolt you got to see it and some things you some things you think that it's empire

that it's actually you you look at it as you yeah but it's actually something that is used to yeah control you internally so you keep on so i'm firm believer but in in a in a revolution in an evolution you know i'm saying in order to kind of just be yourself it's an occupier in your body and you have to set a host you're hosting yeah a virus yeah it's the real pandemic my guy colonization yeah i agree but uh how was it with how'd you get along with lakeith good yeah no he's cool man he's cool i mean been from we go way back now you do yeah we met him i met him just before we shot get out uh-huh just before we shot get out i've seen my son dance and then and yeah yeah, it was just, we just on this, we kind of like had these really kind of, I feel like we're on the same journey.

Yeah. Because we kind of times where we meet and we're doing something random. And remember we was like doing like a monologue for like South African kids, like the raised chariot at Carnegie hall, but we was in the same dressing room. It was like, you have these kinds of moments. It's like, wow, this has happened wow this has happened so get out and judas are two very um yeah significant moments it's like i found his character to be you know the the idea of selfishness and and

self-preservation versus community and uh and community It was like, I thought it was a really smart script, man. Yeah, no, it was really intelligently written by Shaka King and Will Burson. And the Lucas Brothers, it was their idea. I know those guys. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it was their idea. And it was such an interesting way to get into it

and really kind of see chairman's politics in debate and in conflict with the fbi ideology and lakeith being lakeith o'neill being a host for that ideology you know so it's um uh in that sense it was you can kind of understand more about you know i always say that in order to see who chairman fred is you gotta show who he isn't yeah and that's like the point of um william o'neill in this film right it's to amplify chairman fred right did you talk were you able to talk to his family at all yeah yeah yeah so the chicago trip i went to the chicago trip in order to talk to the family could have on that trip because of legal stuff and politics and stuff like that. Yeah.

And we went a few weeks later with Dominique Fishback, who plays Deborah Johnson, Mama Kua in the film, and all the producers and Shaka and Will. And we went there and yeah, man, like we sat down and we had an eight hour meeting. Yeah. That was interesting. With Chairman Fred Jr.

And Mama Kua. And it was just, I mean, it was in a Hampton home. And it was intense. It was intense. It was asking us a lot of questions, but more asking us about who we are as people and what's our intentions for this job. And what's the job of this story and what's our intentions in terms of like in art?

Like why do you make art? Why do people make art? Wow. It was very, it was, you had to dig deep and just be honest. You had to be honest. And I really respected it because he's just like, well, if you're flipping playing Chairman Fred,

I need to know who you are. I need to know who you are. I want to know who you are. That was his son? It was his son, yeah. And did you walk away from that feeling? Did you guys feel good about it? Yeah, I felt cool. I felt cool.

I don't necessarily assume if you meet someone once, they're like, oh, yeah, best buddies. I was just going to go, yeah, like, I came out of it. I was honest. I was just honest. I was me. I was just like, this I came out of it, I was honest. I was just honest. I was me. I was just like, this is me. This is where I'm at. This is my why.

This is, yeah. And then, like, and then he took us to a couple areas in Chicago. And then, yeah, we've kept in touch. So, yeah, me and Chairman speak quite regularly. So, that's cool. Like, what a fucking, like, you know, outside of,, like now I feel like an asshole for even asking you about the golden globes in light of the life experience you were given because of this. You know what I mean?

John, it's not, I don't think you're an arsehole, bro. I don't think you're an arsehole, but that's what I'm trying to say. A lot of times it's like, you know,

it is, I think I said it in the speech. It's like you, when you give everything to something, you're just free. So it's like, it's kind of like, it's not even like even like i don't care it's just like you can't like yeah like the stuff that the stuff that i couldn't i can't open up about the stuff i saw and the stuff what happened after it

in terms of like like the cost that it takes on your body to play someone like that to be a vessel for someone like that in the way that i did it is a huge cost it's not a joke this process deep made me deeply respect acting more and deeply respect the process more because it's no joke so it's that kind of thing where like when you get awarded you're kind of like you're happy but you know it's just you just know the cost you just know the cost so it's just a different you're just looking at a completely different point of view because i'm just like there's a real there's a real i know there's a real cost here you mean and so it's the and also yeah like that experience and the people you meet

is i just find that incredible when you say cost like what in respect i mean you you you did a great job you know you did a great job but what what specifically you what the cost is what it took you through emotionally mostly i had some health issues at the end oh really so it's that thing where like i had to i had to look at that and like pick myself back up like um so what from exhaustion or yeah a lot of things i mean it was like it was like a lot of things it was a real you know a real shutdown so when you when you when you are in that space you're just like oh wow like like this is the tax this is the cost this is the cost so when something's really expensive you really want to be like wow this is really expensive do you mean it so it's just like

whatever you get from it you're like wow i know i know i know the real value like the real cost of yeah going in that direction so it's it's almost like a it's a humbling experience like winning a golden globe because you're just like okay cool like okay i get it it's just that but i i had to live it you know and i'm just not gonna i'm not gonna you when you have those experiences and you give your all you give all of heart, you're liberated from the opinions of others outside of you. It's just, it's, it's amazing.

And you kind of go, wow, I'm grateful that even like, like, yo, like I'm going to go out there and more people are going to watch Judas because I won a golden globe or got nominated for an Oscar and the Keith nominated Oscar,

the film got nominated for an Oscar. Like that's amazing. But then you're just like, you just, you just operate on a different, in different. You're right. Because yeah, if you go in, what would you say? If you're just like you just you're just operating on a different in different you're right because yeah if you go in what would you say if you put if you go with all your heart you're free i like that because you you know you have to be conscious of that you know like that's something you have to learn about yourself and appreciate because you

might miss that too right it's it's it's interesting it's like it's it's the fear is giving your heart you know then it's like you how many times has fear stopped you from giving all of your heart so it stopped you from actually tasting true freedom interesting you know and like the true freedom is really still it's really silent it's really it just is like it's just like going club when it just is something bad happens just is you mean it's like it's just like boom it just is and so but it's like you when you give everything you taste that you taste reality you don't taste other people's triggers don't taste perception you don't taste judgment you don't say you just taste reality you go this is what it is they just give them this these body of people have given me an

award for something they have seen that's nice that's quite a kind thing to do that's nice i mean it's like and that's not to downplay it it's not i know it's not downplay it but it's just like you've just gone on a journey and you've given all this like this my heart bro now spirit like is that it's all of me yeah is this this is spiritual spiritual idea is this something that do you do you like do you have a practice that enabled you to see things this way? In what sense? Like a meditation practice, a Buddhist practice, or, you know, a God practice. No, no, no.

That's how I see things. You just feel it? I just feel it. Like, it's just the truth. I felt that when I did plays back in the day, and when I did plays back in the day and when i did plays back in the day and i did this play i played a boxer they could suck a punch at the royal court yeah i played a boxer and um i trained for three months and i lost like 42 pounds in three months and i was playing a lightweight boxer and then the last show i remember i was like the lines is where do i go? What do I do? And then I was there, I was looking at everyone and I was just thinking,

and I just like literally broke down on stage and, but actually worked for the scene. So it was all right. But you're just looking at everyone and like, I really cared what everyone thought. I really cared. Yeah. And like,

and I'll just look at people and they're going to write their reviews. And I'm like, you didn't do three minute planks with me. You didn't, you just't do three minute planks with me. You didn't, you just, do you know what I'm trying to say? Like, how can you, like, you're not equipped to even capture this. Yeah. Like, not even like in a kind of like in a, in a ego.

It's just like, bro, I really give you my body. I give you everything. Yeah. How can you, how can you put that into words? Just say, and it was, I was free. I looked at everyone. I was like, everyone, it's whatever, man. how can you, how can you put that into words? Just, and it was, I was free. I looked at everyone.

I was like, everyone, it's whatever, man, how people feel is whatever. Like I want, I want people to have a good time. I want them to connect.

I want audiences to like, to trust me as a person that's going to like give a nice vibe of a story and learn something new and interesting. And like, but it's just that kind of going, wow. Like when you give you all you're just like you take it up and you're just like but then i realized before i really believed that i'm like right this cast director means this and this this that this reviewer means this and this position means that when you give everything up out all that goes right you don't

even look at it anymore yeah i i i can understand that and i and i and i do like i have felt that before but you know you're fortunate to feel it. Where have you felt that? When have you felt that? Like, I believe that that last special I did, you know, after doing comedy for 35, 40 years was the best thing I ever did. I could see my entire life's work in it. You know, I've been doing stand-up since I was in my early 20s. And I think that special I did last year with my girlfriend at the time directing was really the best work I'd done and I and it felt I could let

it go you know like I you know I I I saw that you know I was in it and that and I worked hard for it and I was you know and I my heart was all in it and uh and I and I accepted that I didn't look at and go like ah why did I do that? Or how come I could have? It was the first time that I was like, you know, that's great work. What do you feel shifted in you? What do you feel shifted in you for you to even allow yourself to give that much of your heart? Well, some of it had to do with that woman.

What was it about the woman that you felt safe? Yeah, yeah. You know, we were partners for a while. You know, we were involved. We were, she passed away about a year ago. And so, like, that was there. But also the gift that she gave me in terms of believing in myself as a performer. Like, I spent a lot of time beating the shit out of myself and doing a type of comedy that was aggressive and angry.

Still is a little bit. But I think there was something about her in my life at that time that grounded me in something. Right. And that opened my heart. So now, you know, in light of that, to keep it open, I just did another movie a few months ago where I really kind of like, you know, like you said, I sort of honored the acting and really, you know, tried to figure out what was great about it and what I was, and I went all in, you know, I, you know, I did a dialect. I did a guy that wasn't innately me. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't getting, you know, I was, I couldn't just autopilot it.

I really had to do the work and I, and I felt better about it. I feel, I feel really like, like something moved in my heart and I'm not completely comfortable with that, but I, I kind of understand what you're saying. I'm really happy that you in my heart. And I'm not completely comfortable with that, but I kind of understand what you're saying. I'm really happy that you got to that place though. I mean, because the thing is about that place, it's not supposed to be comfortable. Yeah.

That's how you find true comfort. You know, it's like you kind of feel like, oh, they kind of teach you and condition you to feel like everything should feel comfortable in order to grow to your tallest height as a tree. Right. No, you've got to have some rain. It's got to come.

Sure. Some bird's got to come and eat your bark or something like that. This stuff has got to happen. And it's uncomfortable growing. You know what I'm saying? It's uncomfortable being free. Yeah, and keeping your heart open, buddy. Yeah, but being free is comfortable.

Yeah. Yeah, it's over yeah it's a yeah no yeah that's true i don't think understanding that type of freedom you know you can talk about that as a word but you know if it's personal it's in your heart it's tricky business you know you want to try to get it done before you go down you know what i mean we do that with down where what do you mean dead oh yeah yeah yeah yeah but then you'll come back you'll come back and you have to figure out again this is a whole game man this is a whole like some of the computer games got that idea from you didn't figure out freedom all right here you go

back again yeah similar coordinates here you go one more bam you gotta figure this out i think that you just gotta figure it i think you gotta figure things out did you guys really shoot that last the the assassination on the on the anniversary of his assassination we shot the the poison and the poisoning scene we shot that on the 50th anniversary of his assassination yeah um so yeah that wasn't that was mark i've never experienced a day like that where like my emotions took over my day like it was like i'm usually kind of like put me to a side yeah when i'm i'm working and then like but my emotions and how i felt about chairman fred and how i felt about what happened really came came to the fore and for lakeith in a real way as well so um yeah we did the speech

me and shaka did a speech at the beginning of the day and just honoring him and just realizing that 50 years later this man still is bringing people together. You know what I'm saying? In this one room in Cleveland. In his house, in a mock-up of his house, 50 years later, you know, and I'm standing here dressed as Chairman Fred. It's a very surreal. And then when I was doing a scene, there's the bit when I was doing the scene and like, he has to decide about prison, X, Y, Z. And so that, I mean, I was resisting to the emotions that i

was feeling then i realized that like you just gotta accept it and use it it's the truth of what's happening you gotta go lean into it so a lot of that was part of that the the kind of intensity of that day it's but it's like when you have something to honor when you're actually engaged in like it's a very rare experience but there's a there's almost a ritual element to it that you guys were so aware of that and you were summoning something and you were getting closure and moving forward at the same time in this space of this anniversary and you know it's what a rare and uh amazing day that is to make that that's what i'm trying to say it's like this stuff like and like what a day that is to make that. That's what I'm trying to say. It's like this stuff, like, like what day that like to experience those kinds of emotions to even just

be aligned, to be on that path. Yeah. You are in a mock-up of his house. Yeah. Day of his 50th anniversary, filming that scene. Unbelievable.

You're just like, you had an experience that you just can't, you can't buy, you can't purchase. You can't, you just have to be it. It's great. And that is just like't you can't buy you can't purchase you can't you just have to be it it's great and that is just like it's incredible that it was looking back is incredible and i feel really blessed to be a part so were you always a serious actor or how when you've been acting a long time like since you were a kid yeah since i was I was like 13, I got into it. 13 improv. Someone like. Improv.

Comedy. Yeah. Like I got into comedy first. I was doing comedy. I was doing comedy back in the day. I did a lot of comedy shows, a lot of comedy skits. I used to do sketches on,

on YouTube, like musical parodies. I used to do all of that stuff. Like majority of my career before Sicario was comedy. And, and like, and so, yeah. And then so improv and improv is like the biggest reaction you would get is sometimes you would make kids laugh. It was it was this place with Anna Cher and basically pay £5

and you go, you go and there's just kids that are from estates as well. And then you kind of go there and it's like for underprivileged kids and you go there and you kind of like um you have this big stage and i was looking at you and it's like me and you mark doing the scene yeah the teacher goes first line why did you do that yeah and then you gotta go right 13 year old doing that is petrifying and if you're rubbish if you're crap yeah yeah they just laugh at you or they'll text or they'll get bored it's kids watching yeah yeah but it was such an incredible training ground because they were honest they were like we don't think you're that interesting right you know like you gotta do something so i realized that like and i i was a joker at school but it took

a while before i could really be able to feel confident in bringing that funny element that comedic element into improv and then so I did that and then you did you actually did like uh tv shows like sketch shows and stuff right yeah I did Harry and Paul I did Mitchell and Webb is there a rule in England that you have to name a sketch show after two guys or how's that's that's i think that's a mandate i think that's the law it's two white men yeah that's how it is yeah yeah yeah boris boris and tony yeah so that's all your experience was in comedy that's a trip man because sicario i love that movie i've watched it a lot thank you and you were great i love that film as well thank you because like i'm a guy as well who has spent his life in comedy and like i'm doing serious roles and like what is what was your first experience with that coming out of comedy because for me my comedy is pretty serious but i can be

funny but i'm i'm pretty serious and i'm pretty you know uh emotional and like when i started to do it feel comfortable with it it was sort of a relief to not be funny yeah you know what it is it's like it's funny it's funny it's funny it's like i remember i was 19 i did this show called psycho amazing show like did you watch some the league of gentlemen have you watched that this british show league of gentlemen kind of surreal comedy kind of i know i didn't watch it the guys that steve Pemberton, Rishi Smith, Mark Gatiss wrote it as well. And then, and then like,

um, they did. Steve and Reese did the show called psycho. I did psycho when I was like 19, it was a comedy show, like kind of like a horror comedy show. It's really funny, really interesting.

And then, uh, and then there was, I was 19 doing it. And the director, Matt Lipsy was doing a scene like this, how surreal it is. Yeah. I was like trying to get and the director, Matt Lipsy, was doing a scene. Like, this is how surreal it is. Yeah.

I was, like, trying to get some keys off these Siamese twins in the van. Sure, that happens. And then, like, one of them woken up, and I had to kiss him. It was the whole. And then, like, and then it's doing that. And then I think I did a lion, and I did it in a certain way. And it didn't ring true to me, but I just did it. And he pulled me to the side. Matt pulled me to the side and said,

Daniel, and literally said something that will change my life forever daniel never played a funny always played the truth and just walked away yeah it was like a boom that's a foundation and no matter what the script is is or what the genre is if i'm playing the truth and the writer's truth and the perspective is truth then so I did this this show called The Fades it's incredible right Jack Thorne and the character is really funny he's like this geeky guy yeah he's really funny yeah on paper you're like laughing out loud but he doesn't a lot of funny people don't think they're funny they're just being honest you know and there's like and so he's just saying the lines in a really truthful way allows the audience to

find it funny is how I felt like. So that's, so then pivoting out into more serious or doing more serious stuff. It's kind of both disciplines help each other because when you're doing dramatic things, you are more in tune with rhythm and timing. You're saying that you understand the importance of rhythm and timing for story purposes to hit a certain way.

So a beat can hit a certain way because in comedy, it's all, it's all about rhythm and timing for story point purposes to hit a certain way so a beat can hit a certain way because in comedy it's all it's all about rhythm and timing so it's that kind of like and so that would help that and then your truth thing would help your serious stuff and help your comedy stuff which is because serious is all about truth and it will help your comedy stuff and this is that the other so I always had that kind of different avenues because when I did improv I would just go i would just challenge myself so a lot of my improv sometimes was serious i would just challenge myself you could just play and go what am i scared of what haven't i done like go there just do that boom just do that in

that way just do that in that way and take the scene a certain way so i i i like diversifying like the i would call them flows like skill sets and Sure. And also like, I think a lot of like what I have learned over from doing comedy, from doing improv, I would imagine too, is that you really learn how to own your space on stage or on screen or in a scene. I think that timing, what you're talking about, that sort of being grounded in what you're doing in your own honesty and taking your time is something that you're very good at and something that's necessary. Thank you. But you know what it is? It's like I see it with Olivia Coleman because I don't know if you know about Olivia Coleman. You know, her back, you know, her background is comedy. No, I'm sure I'd make sense. Yeah. Yeah. So she's like, she was in this really big, she was in Mitchell and Webb as well.

She was in that show about two white men with you. And then like, and then, and then I actually, I met her at 18 and she gave me the most amazing advice at 18 and we shared a she was in in that show with two white men with you and then like and then and then i actually i met her at 18 and she gave me the most amazing advice at 18 and we shared a car which is so lovely she was i was deciding whether i was going to drama school or working doing this acting thing yeah and i didn't have i didn't really no one in my life was doing acting so i didn't really have anyone to turn to right to ask for advice about what what should i do in my life i was 18 like and everyone was telling me to go to school.

And she weighed up the options and was like, it sounds like you want to just do it. And I know that's like, it's scary because everyone thinks you're going to mess up, but you can always go back. And I was like, yeah. And then I'll never forget that. She was so amazing.

But anyway, Olivia, she's like, when you see someone like Tyrannosaur, have you watched Tyrannosaur? That was the first time I saw her do serious work. So Paddy Constantine film and Peter Mullins in it, like an Indian England. And then like, anyway,

she, she's doing that. And then I realized that like her comedy, what happens is, is that, you know, the pockets. Yeah.

You just know the pockets. Right. And then when you transfer that, that understanding, because if you're in a funny scene, you just know the pocket. Like, you know, like you look at a scene and go, what's the funniest thing about're in a funny scene, you just know the pocket. Like, you know,

like you look at a scene and go, what's the funniest thing about this scene? All right, cool. I can, I make that hit. Yeah. Sometimes it's not your line.

I gotta make that hit. I need to hear that. Oh, boom. So it's that kind of, so with, when she's, when I see her going to the drama space,

she just knows the pockets. Like he just knows the pockets. And that's, I think you look like you just knows the pockets and that's i think you look like you just have to take it because you have to make someone laugh objectively away from you but you can't find that funny and you have to find a pocket but the pocket has to do with how the character fits i mean it's a definition of character right because yeah because i just watched her and uh i just watched fleabag again and she's like a genius in that yeah and it's a completely horrific comedic character the the insecurity of it and you know the self-involvement of it

but it's she plays it completely straight and it's like just brutal comedy that thing yeah it keeps it real and you find the nose the pocket that will be the the funniest version of real it's it's just something you can't, you just go, I see Olivia, I'm like, oh, she just gets it. She just gets it. I think she's delicious. It's like when she acts, I find it delicious. And you grew up looking at, watching her, right?

Because she was on a lot of television, right? She's on TV. Yeah, she was on Peep Show, this show called Peep Show. Yeah. By Mitch and the Web. And then like, and it was really, it was, she was just so funny in it. And really, really, like she was just so funny in it. And really, really, like, she was a leading lady in it. And it was just, like, it was so amazing to see her pivot

and now become this big star. But, yeah, so there's a lot of people that you grew up just watching and go, oh, yeah, like, they were about. And they were, like, they were like Martin Freeman. Martin Freeman is, I think Martin Freeman is the king of pockets. Like, I think he's Like he's great Like today I would say him like

He's almost like A lot There's so many He's got so many sons Yeah He's got so many sons And so many daughters His performance

In The Office Yeah Yeah Has so many sons And so many daughters Yeah Like because every And like him and Sherlock

He just knows how to hit it Yeah Like he just hits it bro And he's just like And it's just about it's just and it's like it's like it's not happening and he's still telling the story. But still, when you actually engage with him, yeah, it's like when it's like, you know, my dream is like it's like when you're watching a game and you see a play on it and then they're doing their thing and you go,

oh, yeah, I could use a ticket. And then when you watch him, you're like, this guy's incredible. But when the game's happening, you can't really see what's happening but like yeah he's got like i think everyone is like so many comedies like how people deliver especially men how white men deliver their lines is a result of martin freeman idea you know i'm saying it's like he just went about in the office and he does this way and then everyone is everyone just took it and ran with it i think i said it i met him i said i said it to him i think he was a bit drunk so i don't know if you remembered but um but yeah so i i i finding pockets they took the drive shaft of martin they took the you know the the engine

and then they they they worked it into their own engine yeah it was an owner but if the people are just by osmosis but like subconsciously inspired by what he's doing there you know i'm saying it's like because he because really and truly ricky gervais is the funny man david brent's the funny funny man like and like martin's character has the story in the office you know i'm saying he has the story it's kind of like josh um john kras the story in the office. You know what I'm saying? He has the story. It's kind of like Josh, John Krasinski in the American, like that guy, that character, same characters has a story.

Yeah. But he, yeah, he's one of those slow burn guys. And he like, he really kind of his, he takes his time and, you know,

he, you know, he lets things sit. It's, you know, it's, it's owning that space, man.

It's very confident. It's very confident. You have to be very confident in what you do in order to go i know this is a comedy i'm still gonna play it in this way it's an audacious position that's why i respect it i caught that in sicario again i was on sicario and it was all of them they were just like audacious they were like nothing less benicio would be just cutting lines less less less less less, less, less. And then I was like,

wow, I didn't understand it because I thought they were like, are they cheating? This is like, this is like, but it's that thing where like, it's just like you, you know, you just distill it to what actually matters.

And then, but to do that in a comedy is like very difficult with your instinct is to go. I want to make the crew laugh. You know what I mean? It's like, and it's just like, no, the audience will laugh when the situation is funnier.

And what was the process like with Jordan? It was amazing because Jordan comes from an improv background. Yeah, I know. So it was like, we just kind of get it. We just get each other. On set, you can kind of be loose with it and go, yo, this isn't working. And we are both confident that we'll find something new

right in and like we'll be doing a take and it wouldn't and we don't know what is going to work and we just try it out in the take you know i mean it's like it's just that it's kind of like i think it's just very much from the same school of thinking in terms of how you guys improvised a lot yeah there was a lot and with allison as well allison contributed a lot she's got improvisation background as well so it was like a lot of improv and a lot of like like even like the give me the keys scene was like improvised that was like in the moment like we kind of it was a whole scene and we kind of took it out to bare bones and it was just like give me the keys and we did that and then like and there was a couple other scenes that a couple other moments

are just improv and made up in the moment and um and is, yeah, he's just like, he gets it. He's like, he's an actor. Yeah, but also he had like, I think he had such a specific vision of what that movie was going to look like that you guys had space. So he knew exactly what the space he was providing and how it was all going to fit. Those people who can direct like that, who know that no matter what's going on on set, they're editing it in their head as they go along so they you know they have the freedom to

take those chances yeah and i think it just gave me space and for me it was like because the story was so strong the writing was so strong that it kind of allowed me to really practice the like the art of refinement like to give a really refined minimalist performance so that when it does go tits up goes fucking crazy at the end you it's more pronounced because it was so suppressed right well you did that you did that you did the martin thing you kind of let it you just bro it's like my inspo is like there's a couple people that i'm like i like the way i see him i see his music though i see a lot of people go i just like his flow yeah i like, I like the way I see him. I see his music though. I see a lot of people go, I just like his flow. Yeah.

I like his flow. Like Christopher Walken. I was thinking the other day, Christopher Walken. I see him like Snoop Dogg. There's no one like him. Yeah. Yeah.

There's no one like, you can't even, you can't even copy it. Yeah. Yeah. If you like, you can't like, I watched King of New York in a pandemic.

Yeah. I watched King of New York. And I was just like, it did the scene. Have you seen King of New York? Yeah. He did the scene where he's there and he's on the dinner table and he's about to like, he's about to say a joke.

He's about to say a joke. And then he kind of, he has a space for a joke, has a joke, thinks about the joke, then laughs at the joke, then composes himself about the joke, prepares himself to say the joke, and then says the joke. All in his life. Yo, Mark, do you know how much confidence you have to have? prepares himself to say the joke yeah and then says the joke all in these like yo i'm telling yo mark do you know how much confidence you have to have to do that like to do that in your close-up

yeah god i'm just gonna think this and you will know like all right like that shit is that bro that's put that in my veins bro that's like it's just like it's like yeah just be present yeah just do and like go with what you feel and like the director can cut if it's like, yeah, just be present. Yeah. Just do it and, like, go with what you feel. And, like, the director can cut it if it's rubbish. You know what I'm saying? But he's like, they just did it. And it's, like, stuff like that. It's like, I see it, like, I'm like, that flow is somewhere else.

He's on another planet right there. You can't really replicate it. So I can see that Martin did what Martin was the biggest, but I can see that pocket that, like, it's the way to tell a story and also make the funnier bits funnier by being the real straight man. That's interesting. So these are your real teachers, really? Yeah, it's like

you just see something and you're just inspired. Yeah. And you kind of go, wow, that's like really like that. That's really interesting to me. I really like the way this person did that. Like it just speaks. You're not even I just watch films because I want to watch films, you just go wow like that's a really interesting way of doing it and i would never have thought about that that's a that's very unique and i'm i buy it you can't not be changed by it you can't like you can't have the old idea anymore you kind of go

when you're doing it oh yeah that's there was a whole thing there you just inspired you just moved i used to feel that way when i watch dennis hopper where you're like oh my god it's like a different time zone these people they operate in a different time zone you know there's it's their own their own their own planet they're dictating like when you engage with those people where you watch them you're like they're they're completely uh unique to themselves so they can they can invent the pace they can invent the time they can like it's what you said it comes from confidence i think also with some people from you know experience it seems people get better as they get older yeah but you know it is bro if i'm being

totally transparent yeah my favorite actors in the world are child actors yeah they're the best they're the best without a shadow of a doubt the minute you turn 13 shit happens and i know what's going on and then you have to work your ass off to get to like I don't know Annie Hopkins age and then you're like

I'm free I'm a child again but it's that thing where like the majority of times it's like I'm more inspired by kids performances

than anyone else because they're just there and they're really listening and they really take it it's like that for me is like that I look at certain things

like oh i just there's too much life has happened for me to even get to that point you know i mean it's like i have to so much to undo to to get to what this child is as like something like beast of no nation yeah yeah with the idris elba film is i think it's abraham atar he's the last scene i was just like bro like this is so pure yeah like this is just so honest yeah and you can't you can't teach it

yeah you know what I'm saying and it's and it's I just think kids know it they kids are the best actors

I when you get a great kids performance I'm just like I'm always really blown away by how simple it is so do you like

find yourself trying to get past the clutter of your experience when you're getting to the emotional part of the role i i i yeah i think i did this episode of black mirror and the director says like crazy interesting yeah he sat us down me and jess brown finley and he did hot

seating he did hot seating with us kind of answer questions as characters and then we just learning about the characters. And then at the end, it was like hours, two hours. It was really intense. Yeah. And that the only thing I could forget about. What do you mean forget about you? Maybe work with you like I was like, no, I like forget about it because like, you know,

if it makes sense, it'll stick. Right. And that's how I feel. You do this work, you do this work, right? And then you just got a band. Let go's how I feel. You do all this work. You do all this work. Right. And then you just got to abandon, let it go. Forget about it. You show up on set. You are just there. And it will show up for you.

Yeah. And it will show up for you. And it will show up for you in a real way because you created a body. Exactly. You created a body. You created an outlook, a perspective, a way. And it will just show up. And it will just show up.

All the decisions you made, the intention, it would just show up and you don't even realise you're doing it. I look at Judas, I don't remember those takes. I don't remember. I don't remember the takes. Right. Like we're usually in performance,

I'll be like, oh yeah, they used that take, they used that take. I remember that day that I don't blanked out, but I literally did go, all right, cool. I'm going to stand here

and I've learnt all this stuff and I've taken all this stuff in and I want to just allow the spirit to speak through me and I'm just going to, like all these, all these stuff in and I want to just allow the spirit to speak through me. And I'm just going to like all these, all these things you can lean on. It's like triggers to kind of, kind of assist you to stay on path.

I mean, on what you're doing. Right. Right. Choices. Yeah. They often say, like,

I don't even see it as choice. It's like, I don't believe I have the power to choose. I think if I have the power to choose, then you're seeing the performance. Okay. So if you do the work. So it's like,

yo, it's like the stuff that happens, if that is a certain scene and I've got to do it in a certain way and I feel a certain way, then I'm going to do it in that certain, like I'm just going to do it in that certain way. And I go, that's what I think.

I'm going to do it in that certain way. There is no choice being made. That's the way. And it's like, it's the unapologeticness and the audaciousness of going this is it because i can always stand on that mark i can always stand on that yeah if someone says oh if i if i'm trying to go oh i think this is a choice this will make them feel that yeah then i'm like i'm trying i'm manipulating them right i'm going oh yeah boom and if i if i don't get what i want then i'm gonna be

self-loathing and beat myself up you know what i created a process to minimize the self-loathing yeah to minimize it i i've literally actively i want to be able to watch my stuff and objectively grow and learn from my own performance and go okay cool i know what that was honest but would you do that now probably not why did you do that now? Probably not. Why did you do that? Okay, cool. Next one, try this, try that. And then you're like honing, honing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that whole like getting at yourself, it just ruins what you're doing. Yeah, I spent more than half my life getting it myself. And then eventually, you know, if you're lucky, it lucky it lifts you know it goes away a little bit and you i think i think i think you can't rely on like it just leaving you got to actively oh yeah for sure and set up something to help you with that because it's just like because it's just can be paralyzing it can be youzing. You found yourself putting something in place to stop your self-loathing. Yeah.

It's like I've got like, because I'm going, this is my heart. Right. Boom. Yeah. This is how I see. This is what I think. This is how I feel. Yeah.

Without embarrassment. Without embarrassment. And then people have an opinion and they're not saying what they think. They're not saying what they feel. So they've got different level of investment. Right. It's going, Oh, this is what I think about how you feel. So it doesn't matter. So I'm saying it doesn't matter. It's just that going,

if you're thinking of yourself like that, yeah. If you're thinking of yourself like that and going, I think about how I feel, then you're going to be, that's going to be a lot for you. That's going to hurt you. You know what I'm saying? If you're not taking it in that way, then that's just what someone else is thinking. You're not agreeing with that, the kind of way of thinking so that's the kind of thing it's just going that's how i felt i look at things that's how i felt you're not looking outside yourself

and you have boundaries yeah i just and i actively like go okay i have to give my all to this and that's why i'm really forensic about the stuff i do because i gotta believe in it sure to help with the love like to help with the process of like no no but it's just that kind of going yeah and just enjoy the moment enjoy it i like having fun i do this because i want to have fun if i wanted to make money i'd work in finance you know saying it's like i like i want to like be comfortable i want to like have a great life and that's expensive nowadays but it's like but it's that thing where, it's about having fun and enjoying yourself. So you've got to put systems in place and think of a way to help you with that.

So you're excited about SNL? Yeah, I am. I'm buzzing for that. I can't even lie, man. I'm buzzing for that. Cause you know what it is? I realized I ain't really got off screen persona like that. No one really even knows who I am like that.

Exactly. It's kind of, I'm just kind of like, like it's kind of really free in position. So I just going to be like just buzzing yeah because you've got and also you've got all this improv superpower that no one knows about yeah no one knows any idea that's why like i went to donald's one donald glover did one yeah and i went to his one and then i was there i was like wow this is like the biggest challenge in the industry it's like this this is the process that will make you grow the most. Yeah.

It's like, because it's just like, you don't have a show on Monday. You have a show on Saturday. I mean, it's like, that's what we used to do every day. We used to like do improv and like go away. A group of us will go away for 20 minutes and then come back and perform that play to the class. And you just have to have a play at the end of every week. You just got to get one.

So it reminds me of that. And you just have to show up and kind of, and your fight or flight comes in and you just think of all these ideas and this is not the other. So SNL doing that, like I'm buzzing. I can't even lie. I'm buzzing for it. I'm like, I'm ready for that.

Well, have fun, man. It's a challenge. It's a challenge. I'm going to enjoy it. We're going to have a party. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm going to have a party. Yeah. Why not, man? Well, look, I'm aying for it. I'm ready for that. Well, have fun, man. It's a challenge. It's a challenge. I'm going to enjoy it. We're going to have a party. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm going to have a party out there. Yeah, why not, man?

Well, look, I'm a big fan. I'm glad we got to talk about this stuff. I really enjoy the work. I like all the movies. And it was enlightening hearing your perspective on this stuff. It's very helpful for me to hear anybody who has challenged themselves and realizes that freedom isn't comfortable. No, that's what makes it comfortable.

So, but yeah, and I appreciate you, man. Appreciate all the stuff that you're putting out there, Mark, man. You really create an incredible legacy, bro. I appreciate it, man. Take care. I'll see you soon. Take care. See you soon.

Peace. Okay. okay that was uh daniel kaluuya and uh he'll be hosting saturday night live this weekend you can watch him in uh judas and the black messiah or queen and slim or or black panther or get out any number of those things. Good actor. Interesting presence. And now you know who his biggest influence is. Alright? Happy birthday to my brother

Craig Maron. You made it. Another year. How old are you, buddy? What are you, 55? You're 55. Happy birthday. I love you, man. I'll play some guitar. Thank you. boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere everywhere it's a night for the whole family be a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m start time on saturday march 9th at first ontario center in

hamilton the first 5 000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.