WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1216 - Katey Sagal

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

Katey Sagal is known by the public in ways she doesn't see herself. She's known as an actor, but always thought of herself primarily as a singer. She's known as a seminal comedic TV character, even though she didn't think of herself as funny. She's defined by brash, confrontational roles, but sees herself as reserved, even shy. Katey and Marc talk about these contradictions and how they played out in public - on Married... with Children, Sons of Anarchy, her new show Rebel - and in private - in relationships, career stall-outs and struggles with substance abuse. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck sticks what the fuck stirs what's happening everything all right are you okay did you get vaxxed are

you half vaxxed are you fully vaxxed are you not vaxxed are you not vaxxed? Are you half vaxxed? Are you fully vaxxed? Are you not vaxxed? Are you not vaxxing? Silly boys, silly girls, silly theys. Get the vax. Let's push it back. What's the problem? You got vaccines when you were a kid. Stop being weird. Get the vax. Let's stop this shit already. Vax, let's stop this shit already. Today on the show, I talked to Katie Segal. You know her from Married with Children and Sons of Anarchy. She has a new show on ABC called Rebel. She also grew up in show business. Yes, her family's a show business family. She's an accomplished singer. And I would like you to know that this show is a lot of recovery talk. It's like recovery week here. But that's okay. It's good. We get into some of the food issue stuff.

Some of the codependent, dirty co stuff. Are you a dirty co? Get into some of the drinky, druggy stuff. Because I don't care what anybody says or how anybody reacted around Hunter. But the truth is. Addicts and alcoholics are stigmatized. Anybody who needs help and is openly asking for help is stigmatized in this country. I mean, it's sort of like, you know, it kind, it's along the same arc as anti-vaxxers. It's like you should be able to fight it.

You should be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You should be able to not need help. You know, you're not really sick. Your body's fine. It's your brain. But it's just not true. But societally, that is still the deal. And that's one of the reasons that anonymous is anonymous. I choose to be public about my

sobriety because I think it helps other people. But a lot of people can't because they'll be judged. It goes on your record. That's one of the reasons it's anonymous. You know what I mean? You got to keep it to yourself unless you want to be public about it to help other people that's my belief but in the out there in the world no matter how much of it is out there no matter how many people know people who have drug problems there's still some part of it that you know people look at them as weak or as a problem or as potentially uh trouble some of that may be true but. But either way, it should be recognized as something that people need help with and accept it as

a sickness. Anyway, all that being said, Katie Segal is here and we did talk about it a bit. Did you guys watch that documentary on HBO Max or HBO or whatever the fuck it is? What is it? Q into the Storm. What a great documentary. It really was well done.

This guy invested. What's this guy's name? Cullen Hoback. He went in there, man. He was there at the beginning of Q and at the beginning of the problem. And he put three years into this, figured out the through line, figured out the players, figured out the effect it had on people, and really kind of made a kind of well-rounded, well-researched and true doc. researched and true doc did not infuse himself too much into it. Like so many documentarians do, they become part of it. Their ego needs the attention and it becomes half about them. He didn't do that. He was there. His presence was felt and he didn't really cross the line except for once. And it was for good reason and really added to the drama of the thing. But you do kind of get to the end of the line of this thing and realize that the entire Q phenomenon was spearheaded by, most likely, seemingly, this father and son team of nihilistic nerds who kind of broke the brains of millions of people and broke the world.

millions of people and broke the world the fact that a couple of malcontents with malintentions could start this up online and break the fucking world and sort of send thousands hundreds of thousands of people's brains spinning away from them into a direction they to the point where they might not get their brains back is sort of uh daunting and terrifying that it was that easy granted look man i'm not saying they're all powerful people really want to believe things they really want stories that have closure they want things to be explained they want their anger to be honored they want to feel part of something bigger than themselves and if you get them angry enough and frothed up enough, they'll kill people to realize it. But it does get to the bottom of it. It makes me think about how do these people that got played by this bullshit feel? I mean, I know most of them are too proud to admit they

got played and probably will just, you know, kind of live off the fumes of the thing and try to pull out what they think is true and real. That has some substantiation. But how does it feel to be that fucking played? Obviously, look, man, we're all marks. We've all been played by one thing or another. And that's sort of one of the hinges of conspiratorial thinking. It's like, what are you a mark for? How do you know what you know is real?

You know, what do you base your perception on? What do you think your identity is hanging on? What are the facts? Who are you really? What is true really? You know, I mean, that's the game, right? We're all kind of marks, but to see where this went,

just for the sort of power tripping goof of a couple of fucking people who figured it out online. And then it got glommed on to by thousands and thousands of lost angry people, but also it got taken advantage of by people who were hip to the power of it. Then they hip the pathological lying pig president and he glommed onto it and used it. It was kind of fascinating. The whole thing is fascinating that a couple of people, expats, father and son team, maybe could break the fucking world,

break the brains, disassociate hundreds of thousands of people and start a viral series of ideas that eat away at the truth like acid so katie seagal and i i think that there's a moment here and you'll hear it uh during our conversation where there's this kind of aha we are alike moment and it's around food issues you know i guess people who know me and know this show know that i'm kind of fucked up like that but i i will tell you this as a man as a he his you can call me they if you want but uh you know i am a I am a dude with massive food issues, massive body dysmorphia, hyper aware, like to the point where, like, if I feel uncomfortable in my body because of what I perceive as being heavy or weight or fat or whatever I perceive, that feeling is so paralyzing that I almost can't breathe. I can't be touched.

I don't want to be seen. There have been times where I don't want to live. Despite all of my other, what some people would say, neuroses, which they are not, but outside of, aside from my drug addiction in the past, my addictive personality or whatever shortcomings I may have, however, I may be fucked up, whatever I may think of myself, these food issues, these, these eating issues are the deepest ones. And they're, they're completely fucking paralyzing and terrible. Uh, you know, to be so aware all the time of what you eat, why you eat it, and then the cycles of self-hatred,

the cycles of body hatred, the cycles of, you know, compulsive weighing. And then if you do get into a role where you start losing weight, that thrill of being sort of exhausted and loopy from being anorexic in your intent to maintain a certain weight or keep getting lower. If you look at the third season of Glow, I'm surprised that nobody thought I had cancer as that character because I started to lose a little weight just so I could eat on set and not feel bad about it.

But then it got away from me and I just kept losing and losing and I looked terrible. But it's very hard for me to balance that shit. So much of my sense of self is wrapped up in how i feel about my weight i can't even explain it how fucking deep that issue is and how like it makes you want to die inside and oddly you know i probably don't get the help or work a program around it that i should because it really is my deepest issue but but it was a just to say that just to say that you're not alone out there fellas who uh pinch themselves when they feel fat or have a series of poking gestures

around their stomach to check the density of what they perceive as their weight. Maybe that's uniquely me. I don't know. But I do know that me and Katie bonded around that. We bonded around juice stuff. We bonded around booze and drugs and recovery. And it was a great talk. It was great to see her.

I felt like we'd known each other for centuries. Her new show, Rebel, airs Thursdays on ABC. It premieres tonight at 10 p.m. Eastern. And this is me talking to Katie. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month.

Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. I'm really happy to be here, by the way. Nice to see you. I'm a big fan. Are you? That's very nice of you. So true.

I watched the pilot of the new thing. What'd you think? Of Rebel. It's exciting. You know, you're out there kicking ass with like nine kids, all different races and genders.

Yes. Many different husbands. Yes. I think it's interesting that how some shows seek to accommodate the diversity. How are you going to do it?

Yes. Well, even though, no, actually, yeah. No, this is a fictitious approach. Right. But I've never seen it done like this where it's like, that's your kid too? Yeah. All different races.

But you can carry it. It happens. It does. But the character seems like somebody who could do that. Absolutely. Well, she's got three different husbands. Yeah. You know, one's adopted.

One kid's adopted. Oh, okay. So, you know, they're all just different races. One's a doctor from a cop. One's a doctor from a cop. One's a lawyer from a lawyer. After being a juvenile delinquent. Yeah.

Okay. No, no, I'm not a lawyer. Oh, no, her dad's a lawyer. Right. So you know more. I haven't seen. It's not important. You know, you just walk in. We're mid. You know, we know, more. Right. I haven't seen. It's not important. You know, you just walk in.

We're mid, you know, we're midway. I mean, I actually did see the pilot, but it was, you know, I don't know about you, but looking, watching myself is not always my favorite thing to do. I can't. It's hard. Yeah. And I zipped out. I was sort of like, oh, I think this is, you know, I just kind of.

Yeah. It was out of body. What do you experience when you do it? Like when you watch yourself, what is the feeling? First, I'm hypercritical. Right. You know, like way too hypercritical and really self-obsessed. Yeah.

Like all I can see is me. Right. Oh, yeah. And then I have to watch. If I watch it again a couple times, then I can see the whole project. But at first, I'm just like oh yeah me yeah i i think i i'm pretty much all about me on every viewing and then occasionally and then occasionally i'm like i'm working with somebody they're doing a good job thank god they're doing such a good job

but uh i've gotten less critical of myself as time goes on oh but it's hard when you watch yourself on television because it if you're hyper critical of it it's it's all stilted it's just the nature of the medium right because they're not you know you're pulling off a trick and acting like you're really talking to somebody in a way do you know what i mean like yes like in the sense that like a lot of dialogue that happens in those compressed stories it's sort of unnatural yes so yes in general right so for me like i always feel that weird air in between lines if i'm watching myself like because it's not you're acting so it's not quite natural and i'm like oh why can i if we looked more relaxed or why didn't i make it seem more natural or you know know. Yeah. Or why couldn't they have shot this when it was off camera?

It was so much better. Yeah. We were so loose. So loose and so much better. Didn't give a shit. Just threw it away. Yeah. So this is based on Erin Brockovich, kind of?

Yes. It's inspired by Erin Brockovich. And she's involved? She's an executive producer. Yes. I think she's a fan of mine. Oh. I think.

I'm sure she is. Well, I mean, we've tweeted at each other oh yeah i don't know how you know she's very cool yeah i think she would yeah you should have her on your show she's awesome i think it'll happen yeah yeah it's really great and uh fighting the good fight so yeah the it's loosely based well yeah it's inspired by her but we don't have her life rights so it's not her life it's just she wouldn't give them or they're already owned or spoken for i don't know what the deal was i don't know she's life it's just she wouldn't give them or they're already owned or spoken for i don't know what the deal was i don't know she's an executive producer but she can't give you the

life rights because they she's promised that she might have given them to somebody else i was going to do something awesome that's why she gave them to them i don't know i don't know but uh but she is involved and it is sort of inspired by her and you're sort of like uh uh uh what would you call this character sort of a consumer advocate a voice for the little guy yeah that's what she is when i worked it on it's on abc andy garcia haven't seen him in a while so awesome is it fun to work with him oh my god well he's such a movie star so he's got all these like killer movie star stories which does he and he sits around and tells him yeah in the most endearing fabulous way. Like he'll just throw out the names of these famous directors.

This one did this and this one did that. I'm just like, I'm enthralled. I love the way he tells stories. He's intense, it seems. He's intense? Well, he's Cuban. And so he has this passionate Cuban way. And he's very

proud of being Cuban. He loves that he's playing a cuban character right yeah sure you know and he'll tell the director that's not how the cuban would do it and so you know it's a different rhythm but he does he has he's a very passionate super funny dude i mean people don't think he's would be funny he's funny i think he's funny i've seen him kind of play that dry funny in the oceans movies yeah he's funny he's sort of the straight guy he's kind of the steaming funny guy yeah guy he's like always getting fucked yeah and in this project he kind of just you know i i just order him around yeah yeah yeah and he you know he loves me but it takes it i guess so you like it ordering people around i actually don't in my real life, but it's super fun to play.

Yeah, I bet. Because I listen. It kind of gets a little off your chest. It does. Absolutely, it does. It's very liberating. And then there's that other guy from Northern Exposure who I feel like I haven't seen in forever. John Corbett.

John Corbett. It's so interesting to check in with people as they get older. Like, oh, you're doing all right. Yeah, he's doing fine. He's like in all these he's in that, what's that Netflix, All the Boys I Loved Before or all the things. Oh, right, right. Yeah, yeah. He's in that. He's in that and, you know,

he's, you know, he's Mr. Dreamy guy. Is he a nice guy? He's a super nice guy. Really? Yeah, I'm not going to say anything bad about anybody I'm working with right now. No, no. So far, everybody's good. I don't know why i asked you that i mean what are you gonna say what am i gonna say he's a fucking asshole don't say anything to anybody but no no he's cool yeah everybody's pretty cool so far everybody's grateful to have a job after everything that we've just all been through did uh were you shooting it with protocols when how we are now

you are now oh right we were about to shoot the pilot just when all this went down. Oh, okay. And everything shut down. So how much have you shot? We are on episode six. Oh, so you guys are going up and you're going to be in it while they're airing. Yeah. And we just have a 10-episode order.

That doesn't usually happen. Usually they're all in the can, aren't they? Or am I making that up? they are they are and there's a whole you know there's that ridiculous pilot process which we got to skip we just they just picked us up straight to series oh as opposed to uh shooting a pilot and waiting around and right and hearing if you do right so you seem like you've never really stopped working well uh no i. I mean, yes, I have stopped working. I mean, I have three children, so I've stopped, you know, stopped and started. To have them and to be with them occasionally?

Yeah, to have them and be with them. Try to make them turn out okay? Yeah. And they're so far so good. How old? I have 26, 25, and 14. I have a teenager at home. Really?

Yeah. I'm an old mom. I had a kid with Kurt, who's my third husband. I mean, it's kind of a little bit like the part I'm playing. The Sons of Anarchy guy? Sons of Anarchy guy, yep. He created that show? He created it.

Yeah. And he fell in love on the set of The Biker Show? No, no, no, no. We met in a 12-step program. I'm familiar with those. Yeah, i'm i'm long time in that so all of them are just one two oh i've been to all i've been to there's probably a few more in my future uh i too am quite obsessive so um no we met in a 12-step room and and he was working on The Shield. He worked on that show.

With Chiklis. With Chiklis. And I was getting out of the marriage number two, and I don't know if I had a gig then. Oh, I think I was on Eight Simple Rules, which is a show I did with John Ritter. And then he wrote the motorcycle show with me in mind after we were married. Really? Yeah, it was nice. Actually, she was written to be a smaller character, and then the network was like, nah, let's bump her up.

That's nice. So he's got the swaggering chick list and then the swaggering you. Yeah, which was so great in my career because I had been so known for comedy that it had been very difficult for people to realize that I'm actually not funny and I'm much more serious than that, which is totally the truth. And so he wrote me this great dramatic role. And it was really, it opened finally. A life changer? Kind of. Yeah.

Work-wise. But you grew up in show business, which always, and I read that, and it fascinates me when people grew up in show business which always like and i read that and it fascinates me when people grow up in this business because it seems like i mean you were here when it was you know glamorous and exciting and my life great not glamorous it was my father this is the part everybody doesn't know what you know it hard working. My dad was an episodic television director, basically. Yeah. You know, he did Man From U.N.C.L.E. Oh, wow.

He did Dr. Kildare. Old, old stuff. And, you know, worked his butt off. He never did films? He did. He did The Omega Man. Oh, yeah. Did you ever hear The Omega Man?

With Charlton Heston? Yeah. That was his movie. And I think ultimately he would have liked to have done more films, but he had a family with five kids. Five kids? Yeah. There are five of you? Yeah.

There's five of us. Same mom? Same mom. Where did he come from? My dad was from Russia. Came here when he was seven with his Yiddish mother who never ever spoke English. What part of Russia? They were from what is now, I'm not going to be able to pronounce the

name right. Is it Belarus? Ukraine? Ukraine. They're from Ukraine. Yeah, that's where my family's from. Yeah. Part of it. So his side, his side is that. The other side is apparently I'm an Amish person from the other side. What are you talking about? I did that show, you know that show, Who Do You Think You Are? Oh yeah, I did another one show oh yeah oh you did the roots yeah oh you know what i think i saw your roots yeah i love that show yeah it was it was all jew it was a jew roots it was a jew it was it was me and terry gross and jeff goldblum oh it was fantastic i saw that episode i loved it yeah no and i thought for sure when they you know they hide they put you on that show they don't tell you what they're gonna do sure so i thought for sure they're taking me to Russia because that's the most interesting part of my life.

Yeah. Turns out my mother is Amish, was Amish royalty. Like way back. So they're taking me to Pennsylvania. I'm meeting all these old girls. And you thought she was Jewish? No, no. I knew my mother was not Jewish.

I knew she was a white person from like, you know. Pennsylvania? From Pennsylvania. Somewhere. Yeah. She was like a big mix of stuff. But yeah, so I'm Amish and Russian. So they they took you to Amish land.

They did. And they took me generations back. I met all these cousins named Hofsteadler. I mean, it was really wild. That seems so like incongruous to who you are and who you're. Did that affect your sense of identity? Well, I do... No, I'm just going to make a joke, but no, I'm not going to say that. No, not really. I've always felt more sort of a Russian Jewish. My father was a very big personality. And

so I've always felt stronger on that side of my family. Was your mom in show business? I've always felt stronger on that side of my family. Was your mom in show business? My mother was. My mother started as a singer when she was 11. She was called the singing sweetheart of Cherokee County and had her own radio show. Really?

Where was this? In Gaffney, South Carolina. So she was on like the old timey radio show? Yeah, like 15 minutes a day. It's probably sponsored by a flower, like a sausage or something. Something. I tried to track it down. I could never find it.

Oh, nothing, huh? But then she went on to be a writer. She worked for, well, here's a long story. She worked for Norman Lear. Norman Lear. I interviewed him. He's a hundred now. How old is he?

He's 97. That's crazy. He's my godfather. Really? He introduced my parents, my mother and my father. What was he doing then? Like writing for Danny Thomas or something? Yiddish theater.

Yiddish theater in New York or here? Here? Out here. No kidding. So it was before television. No. Television was happening because my mother was the script supervisor on the Martin and Lewis show. Okay.

The variety show. Yeah. Right. My parents have been dead a long time, so it's kind of like lore. Yeah. But anyway, so my mother was working for Norman. Norman knew my dad through directing in the Yiddish theater and hooked him up. Your dad directed in Yiddish theater too?

Yes, my dad. So everybody spoke Yiddish? Everybody, Yiddish. Did you? No. No. My grandparents used to when they didn't want me to understand what they were talking about. Right. My grandmother always did.

She never learned English. Really? No. She never spoke English. And you guys grew up in like Hollywood? I was born in Hollywood. That's crazy. And then I grew up all around, you know, my dad was like a journeyman.

You know, he did what we did, like circus people. So, you know, we grew up, I just moved around a lot as the family grew. In this area? Yeah, we ended up on the west side. Because things got, things were well. Things were good. Right. And they stayed married? Well, my mother died

when she was 47. She was young. Oh my God, from what? She had heart disease. That's terrible. Yeah, my God. From what? She had heart disease. That's terrible. Yeah, and she had some other stuff. And so my mom died when I was 19, 20. And then my dad remarried. And my dad remarried.

Do you know who Gower and March Champion are? I know. I wish I did. They were like the Fred and Ginger of Broadway. Oh, okay. Okay. Anyway, March Champion was big. So he married March Champion. The dancer? Yes, the dancer. Okay. She was my stepmother until, you know, my father died. Then it gets all sad. It gets a little bit sad. Let's do it at the

beginning here. The sad part? Sure. Okay. Yeah. All in my 20s was a little bit funky. Lots of loss. Lots of sad. He died? How did he die? He was killed on a set. My dad was directing a movie called World War III. And he was doing second unit. And he was up on a mountain with a helicopter. And he got disoriented, couldn't get his shot, walked the wrong direction into the helicopter. Oh, my God. Yeah.

So that was horrific. And you're in your 20s. I'm in my 20s. Where are you in the siblings? I'm number one. I'm the first. So you're the oldest. I'm the oldest. So you've got all these younger siblings, and now both parents are gone.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'd like to say that I kind of stepped in, but I didn't. I just sort of, I just checked out. I just got further and further into a dark hole. What were you doing at that time? When did you start, like, manifesting your talents? Well, you know, I worked as a musician.

I never wanted to be an actor. Right, but like when you were a kid with all this show business around, were you doing stuff? Were you singing and dancing? Oh, yeah, yeah. I was in bands. I was like, my mom taught me to play the guitar. What, like in the late 60s kind of deal? Yeah.

No, no, no. My mom taught me to play the guitar mid 60s. Yeah. Like I was 10, 11. Yeah. And I could always sing. I was 10, 11. And I could always sing. I was a singer. And I had this kind of, you know, I had an ability. I was good. And so from a young age, I was sort of, I was in bands. Rock bands?

Rock bands with the older boys. It was fun. Anybody like, did anyone go on to do big things in your rock bands uh not from high school but later on i met a lot of yeah well then you were like i think in rock the rock business weren't you well like basically yeah pretty much i mean i was you know kind of a struggle i mean i did i made records and i was a struggling background singer and i i was like a demo singer you know they'd put you in the studio how does this work so okay so you're norman lear's your godfather so you you're you you spend time on sets i imagine as a kid yeah if i wanted friends in elementary school i'd bring them to the set okay they didn't like me otherwise and you you you never got worked into a show

i did my father when i was 16 he decided... My dad always thought I should be an actor. Right. Which is one reason I never wanted to be an actor. Because he wanted me to be one. That's another story. Why were you pushing back on the old man? Just pushing back. Just because that's my nature.

Yeah. Was he like a... What kind of Jew was he? Was he like a stocky kind of loud Jew? Loud. Cigars involved? Cigars. Cigars involved? Cigars. Okay.

Ascots on the set. If you go to any set, every set I've worked on, people knew my dad. Really? And they loved him. They loved him. And I would look at them and like- What was his name?

Boris. Boris Segal. Loved him. And then I would, because he was different when he came home. He was tired and loud. And I remember thinking- Is loud a nice word for angry? Kind he came home. He was tired and loud. And I remember thinking. Is loud a nice word for angry?

Kind of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, big, big. Not boozy, though? You know, boozy in that. No, not alcoholic like me. Right. But boozy in that, like, martini way.

Like, every day at whatever. Sure. You know, when you come home in a little mill town. Do you remember mill town? The liquor? No, no. That's a pill. Oh, it's a pill? a little mill town. Do you remember mill town? The liquor? No, no. That's a pill. Oh, it's a pill?

Yeah. Oh, it's like a pre-valium value? Pre-valium. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was that. And yeah, so he was that guy. And so I didn't, whatever he said, you know, he said left and I said right. That was that kind of relationship.

Just to define yourself. Pretty much. So did he work you in somewhere? He did did he wanted me to have a union card so he wanted me to have health insurance so when i was 16 he wrote me into he got me a job on this tv movie that he did with dean stockwell oh dean stockwell yeah and uh so i had a part on that and then he also directed me in a colombo i was this is in my high school. I was in high school. Because you had to have two jobs to get a union card, right?

To be Taft Hartley then. Right, exactly. So he got me a union card, which to this day, I'm just so, you know, because it's hard to get in the union. Is it? Oh, my gosh. I have two. My older kids are both actors. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big hurdle.

They're in the union. Why? Because there's less union shoots or or like don't you have to sort of get taft-hartley after two jobs anyways you're only allowed to have two jobs before yeah but you can't get a job it's kind of that catch-22 like you have to be a union someone has to give it to you exactly you got it right. Yeah. You have to know somebody. Right. I got mine from my friend Steve Brill put me in the Mighty Ducks 2. Oh. I was cut out, but I got my card.

Who cares? It's good to get your card. So you did Columbo. That must have been exciting though, right? Peter Falk? No? Nothing? I did a movie years later with Peter Falk.

You did? At the end of his life. Yes. And that, yeah, that was pretty, that was pretty great. I don't really remember him when he was Columbo. I remember Jeff Goldblum was on the episode that I did. Young Jeff Goldblum? I totally remember him.

Well, he's so quirky and weird. He was so quirky and weird and he gave me a ride home and I was sort of thinking like, wow, is he hitting on me? I don't know what he's doing. Was he? He might have been. I don't know. I haven't talked to him, you know. I haven't talked to him since. But I think he's quite the man about town.

He'd love to hear it. He'd be like, ooh. Of course I remember him. Maybe he was. Yeah, but then I really wanted to play music. That's what I love to do. I still do. But I'm trying to play music. That's what I love to do. I still do. But I'm trying to picture this.

I always am fascinated with this time in Hollywood where you were in your 20s in the 70s, which is like that was the decade where it was just like a party in the streets, right? It was insanity everywhere. Just drugs, music. Yep. People wearing – it was like post-hippie insanity. Well, it was actually, it was kind of, so 1975, I'm 20 years old. So it was that period all the way through mid-80s that it was really, you know. It took a big shift too.

The hair got bad. The hair got bad. The shoulder pads got big. Yeah, like the mid-70s. So when you were in high school, 18 or 17, that was when it was cool. That's when we probably had the best pants. Yeah. And then it got...

I was sort of like in between. I was like pre-go to San Francisco and protest the war. 69, I was 13. So yeah, you missed out. It must have been much better to be 16. And I wasn't. Right. But you got the 70s, though.

So you got the music and the cars and everything. Yeah. And you start singing in a band in high school. I started singing in a band in high school. And then when do you start to go professional? How does that happen? I went to Cal Arts out of high school. Out in Valencia or wherever it is?

Where is it? In Valencia. So many people went there don cheadle allison brie i was in a class with paul rubens yeah david hasselhoff wow that's a big yeah it was it was what my dad said to me i said well i want to go to that school because i didn't have any grades in high school i was completely like you know i didn't i couldn't get into a regular what happened happened? Were you using then? Oh, yeah.

I was. And I was also just not going to school. What was your thing? I was smoking a lot of weed. I was drinking Red Mountain wine. Red Mountain. Is that like Boone's Farm? Yeah.

Yeah. Like Black Beauty's White Cross? Black Beauty's White Cross. Yeah. Yeah. All that. Wow. The fun stuff, you know.

Benzie's. Benzie's. Second All. Second All. That's the other yeah. Yeah. All that. Wow. The fun stuff, you know. Benzies. Benzies. Second All. Second All. That's the other way. Yeah. My mom had a lot of Second All in the house. Oh, really?

Yeah. That's lucky. Yeah. Well, that was that generation, too. I mean, it was like- Right. Second All, Valium, Librium. Yeah.

All that. And the diet pills. Oh, that's exactly what started. That's how it started. What? The diet pills. I was a fat kid, apparently. Even though I looked at myself, I just thought I'd started. What? The diet pills. I was a fat kid. Apparently, even though I looked at myself, I just thought I'd looked, you know, curvy. I was a fat

kid. No, I was told I was a fat kid. You were a fat kid? My mother made me believe that. Do you still think you're a fat kid? Yeah. Obese right now. 100%. I hear you. Oh, man. Do you have to do that thing where you just can't look in the mirror sometimes? Yeah. Yeah. Body dysmorphia, it's called. I have body dysmorphia it's called i have bodies i'm it's it's my deepest issue oh my god we are so alike i just saw a billboard of myself a fucking billboard of myself in you know this rebel show that i'm in yeah i call this girl that that i sponsor and she says take a picture i take the picture i said oh i look fat i can't and she's like she said you are insane i said look i know i know i'm nuts but that's what i see i'm i'm so fucking nuts i can't i can't shake it

it's a tough one to shake because my mother's anorexic so like i grew up with this my mother recently or as many times in my life has said uh i I don't think I could love you if you were fat. But it turns out that was not even true. She said to me like a few Thanksgivings ago, just casually, she said, you know, Mark, when you were a baby, I don't think I knew how to love you. I'm like, I guess we've solved it. Or you should have said, I knew that. I kind of pieced that together. The weird sort of glib honesty was kind of mind-blowing.

But the point about the weight is she has maintained a weight of like 116 pounds for decades. Wow. And that's her whole life. Yeah. She's obsessed. So she passed that on to you. Totally. Yeah.

And it's the worst it is the worst i weighed myself this morning and i was like wow i'm i like i had a body dysmorphia morning because like last night i was like i'm fucked and i exercise constantly and you look great by the way thank you and i got on the scale this morning like wow i was wrong this is an okay day you have to put away the scare. This is so funny. We're having this conversation. My husband and I are both this way.

Did you make him that way, though? Oh, no, no, no. He came to me that way. Because you can make people this way that you're with. My children. Oh, yeah. Like, I noticed that about relationships I've had. And I noticed it about my father.

Because it's contagious. Because they start to get self-conscious. Like, if you're that crazy, they're like, do I look fat? And it just spreads through the whole family. It does. Well, it's alcoholism. It's the same thing. Is it?

Yeah. I mean, in my opinion, anything that fills the hole, so to speak. I'm having a carb problem right now. i'm like i'm like i can't i cannot do it you mean you can't have them or you're just overdoing them well no i just want them you just want to jones in because i'm feeding it i'm not really overdoing it but i do beat the shit out of myself in order not to well it's your head more i mean for me it is i find that over the years yeah and i've been able to moderate i can kind of eat most things yeah like well even that bag of swedish fish last night was probably not

a great idea i can't i'm so glad i don't have that you don't have the candy sugar thing i like chocolate and cake and pie okay but i don't like gummy bears and swedish fish but don't you know that's an eating uh that's a you know the the excuse for gummy bears and all that is because there's no um it's just straight straight sugar no barbie anyway i think the point is that i think with years of recovery what i've learned do you do oa uh i have been i did not really kind of feel shitty going there don't't you? Well, I was totally embarrassed. Didn't want to go. The skinny person at OA, the worst. Well, here was the worst.

It used to be in the old days, you know, every rag magazine would infest the 12-step world. So I didn't mind that the National Enquirer said I was like a drug addict. But when they said I was at an OA meeting, I was like totally mortified. I thought, no. Oh, I didn't realize they did that. That was happening. Oh my God. They used to be.

What time? In the eighties? When? You know, when I got sober, I got sober when I was in 1986 and I got sober at the log cabin in West Hollywood. Architects of adversity. Oh, my favorite. That was my favorite when they throw chairs around shit.

But so, so the, the So the press would break anonymity? Oh, the press would be there. That's when I learned really quickly to share in a general way because almost everything I'd ever said in a 12-step room was in a paper. That's so fucking heinous because I don't – is that still happening? I don't feel that it's happening. I don't think – I don't read the – I don't look. I don't think I don't read the I don't look. I guess there was sort of a wave where like, you know, AA was sort of like somehow it seemed like there was a time where people would meet people at meetings.

There was a hip factor to meetings for a while. Right. Well, when I that's definitely not the case. No, you used to in the 80s, we'd get dressed up to go to meetings. I mean, it was like, you know, because if you figure you're an addict since you're young, you're sort of socially inept. You have a lot of social anxiety, right? Yeah. I mean, that was part of my thing. I couldn't deal with people.

Right. So I get sober and there would be these social meetings where, you know, my sponsor would say to me, yeah, go talk to people. I'd be like i don't i you know you want to look good man if you're going to third and gardener you better look fucking like it's like this royalty sitting at the front like the whole fucking thing or rodeo did you ever well i don't know if you i went to rodeo like once or twice but i was like i got sober in new york so i've been out here since 2002 and i was sort of of an Eastside guy, you know, Silver Lake.

But I dressed up. You want to look good. Yeah, you do. Well, you know, it's like social, and there's cute girls and cute boys, and keep coming back. Everyone's working it, too. Kind of. Well, you know, the ones, I remember when I first got sober, and, you know, I was just all over, like, whatever dude was cute. I mean, I was, you know, anything to fix. You have to put a trigger warning on this episode for bleeding deacons who hold on to the tradition.

Like, you guys, you're breaking the tradition. Yeah, well. Yeah, but I remember the guys that were actually, you know, cool dudes would just look at me and say, you know what, you're not sober long enough. Just sit down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

All right. Very pretty. Sit down. That's right. Don right don't talk but wait let's go back so you start on diet pills and that's where it starts yeah when i was 14 my parents who told you you're fat my dad the director my dad the director the house had to be perfect i was supposed to be even though what's funny is you know he had a food thing so like you know he was just projecting onto me but what do you mean he was self-conscious about it his weight would go up and down he was like a food guy he was like but he knew it he'd be uncomfortable fat always on a diet oh not a comfortable not a happy fat

guy yeah not a happy fat guy okay and he wasn't really a fat guy like when i look at pictures nobody was you know yeah so they take me to the doctor gives me me diet pills. I did not, I don't think I lost any weight, but I felt a lot better. Like I think I needed, you know, antidepressants is probably what I needed. And so then self-medicating just started then. So, okay. So you found that you felt better. You were still chubby, but you were on your way with the drug. But I didn't give a shit.

I didn't care. You're thinking, man. That's what I was thinking. And I taught myself to play the piano. I give a shit. I didn't care. You're thinking, man. You're doing something. That's what I was thinking. And I taught myself to play the piano. I'm writing songs. I'm prolific. I'm just,

this is the way for me. Jacked. Jacked. Smoking cigarettes. Nice. Drinking wine on the weekends. Smoking weed. I didn't really think

there was any problem at all. And you were like, what, 17? Oh, 14 I started by the time, but then, you know, the prescriptions would run out.

So then I'm buying Black Beauties. I'm doing a lot of different things. Yellow Jackets. Yellow Jackets. Yes. Oh, my God. Yes.

I have not heard that in a long time. And then before I know it, it's the 80s. And then I'm on the road. Then I'm like, yeah. Then I'm in that world. Dumbest drug of all. The dumbest drug ever. Speed was so much better.

Well. In the sense that like. It's cheaper. Well, you can take a pill and you can be by yourself and you didn't have to follow somebody around. I could do blow and be by myself. Right. But I mean, you still had to deal with it and it'd go away quick. Yeah.

I mean, you take some pills. It's like you're good for a few hours. You don't have to keep going to the fucking bathroom. Yep. That's true. See, you know all this stuff. Yes. so true no but i loved i did coke too it just in like fiending on coke and how embarrassing that gets you know and the places you end up because of that shit it's crazy but you you're on the road with who how does it start the the

music career how do you get how do you get how do you become a background singer? Well I dropped out of college. That's why I started that. I went to Cal Arts for six months. With David Hasselhoff. Yeah and Paul Rubens. Were you friends with them? Oh yeah I just talked to Paul. I talk to Paul all the time. Paul's so great. I don't know why he hasn't been on this show.

He's a great guy. You should have him. I don't know why it hasn't happened. Anyway so I'm in college and then I drop and I was in the theater department because my dad would only let me go if I could audition

this is where it all gets kind of like well I guess I had some natural talent because I got into these places but I didn't want to do it so I got a job

in a Broadway the road company of a Broadway show I was the chorus girl and I just sang in that yeah and I what show it was called two gentlemen of verona i went on the road for like nine months and then i came home and then i got a job as a singing waitress and i worked in this restaurant and then i got a record deal

in the 80s in the 80 and now it's uh yeah i think we're almost to the 80s yeah maybe 70 late so whenever kiss came out, because Kiss, Gene Simmons is who took me to Casablanca Records and got me a record deal. How do you meet that monster? I was his waitress. And that's how it happened? Yeah.

And you were his singing waitress? I was his singing waitress. And this was like at the beginning of Kiss? It was their first concert in Los Angeles. Holy shit. And they were playing at the santa monica civic and they're all from like long island right yeah yeah and he was probably like still like a reasonable rock jew at that point oh he was a fantastic rock jew and the only person

i'd ever met that never had a drink or a drug i mean he was. He was like straight up business. And I was still taken with him. Yes. What I'm saying is you met him before he fully got degenerate. Yeah. Like I think his bag is sex, right? Well, it was then. I don't know if his bag is still sex. I don't know now, but. Like it's got to come out somewhere yeah yeah yeah yeah that was his definitely his his jam yeah and i was and it turned out that i was in a band at the time with a guy he went to college with it was just this weird sort of thing that happened synchronicity and before i knew it we had a record deal and i started making records and then that solo records well this was with a band uh my first record what's the band called it was called the group with no name not a good name

horrible name terrible it's neil bogart's idea at casablanca records i don't know if you know who that was i do know that name he was the prez and he was a big guy yeah yeah so that happened and then that didn't happen and then i was like a singer for hire and i would go back and forth between the restaurant you're dating gene dating Gene? I did long distance. Yes, I did. Yes. I guess you call it dating. Right.

You'd hook up here and there. Yeah. For me, I was like madly in love, but he was not. But he must have been on the road constantly. Constantly. Yeah. And you sang on a record of his? I did.

When they all did their little solo project? Their solo records. Yeah. Yeah. I sang on his solo record. Oh, how bad was that? Yeah. I can't remember those records.

I was not a Kiss kid. Me neither. I didn't. And it was my age group too, but I didn't go in. I didn't go in. Because I was in high school then and I didn't. I listened to a lot of rhythm and blues. I had a guy who turned me on to Robert Johnson when I was in high school.

Sure. Yeah, I got that. So I listened to all that. I remember running off to the Ash Grove, which is now the Improv. Now I hear about this place. You know, which used to burn down yearly. Right. Used to burn down all the time.

But I'd go run off and hear Taj Mahal and Willie Dixon. Yeah, they were always hanging out. Some guys had residencies there. So that's where you started singing with those guys or touring with them? No. Well, I toured with Etta James. I sang with Etta. This is after the No Name Band? This is after the No Name Band?

This is after the No Name Band. Got no hits? Got no hits. Got no nothing. Then we moved to Elektra Records. Got even less. Who was in that band with you? They still around?

Yes, I think so. Alan, I mean, I don't think you would know any of them. You wouldn't know any of them. They didn't go on to other bands? No, I mean, the only one that ended up being in that band was my friend Brian Ray, who plays with Paul McCartney. And he was in our side band because the band was five singers. It was kind of like the mamas and the papas. And then we ended up having a band. I ended up marrying

the bass player. I mean, it goes on and on. That was the first husband? That was the first husband, who taught me about Otis Redding and Al Green. I think that's why I married him. Oh, those are both good stories. Both ended sadly. Well, not so terrible, but there was a bad story in the Al Green story. Otis, plane crash. Right. But Al, didn't he get in trouble for a woman threw a pot of boiling water on him?

Or was it the other way? I can't remember. Oh, yeah. No, you're right. And then he became a reverend. Yeah. He got God because he was out of his mind. Yeah, and the music suffered.

Yeah. Sometimes God doesn't help music. Sometimes you got to turn your back on God and take the tricks elsewhere. That's right. It's always a price to pay. So the bass player taught you about that? He did. He played in a band called the Soul Survivors.

Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. Express Way to Your Heart. Oh, is that it? So I married him. So those people, they were in that band that nobody else you would know. And after that, I was like a singer for hire. I had bands.

I was trying to get record deals. So with the record company, you had an agent and a record company that kind of would say, like, oh, we got a girl that does this. Oh, no, no agent. There was no agent at that point. And then I lost my record deal. And so I remember when I worked with Bette Midler for five years. How was that?

That was pretty amazing. That was pretty great. I went all around the world with her. People love her. Love her. And that was an open cattle call audition. That was like hundreds of girls lined up you know to go into this sound stage and sing and dance why no acting

i didn't want to it was just really i was going to be a music that was it i just didn't even how many solo records you put out i've put out uh my first one was when I was on Married with Children I still did not give up and so I got a deal on Virgin Records and I put out a solo record I've put out four I think four solo records I just keep I make them you know now I just make them and at that point I was very invested in like okay

people are going to take me seriously I wrote every song on this record I know I'm an actor but I'm a musician I want them to know this part of me too. And then I'd go on those radio tours and I'd be like, could you say ow? And I was like, no, this is not happening. Morning radio? No, they don't care.

So now I just make records because I like to make records. That's great. And I have a band and I play in my band. That's nice. I know, it's super great. It's kind of like, well, I'm sure, I mean, you make your living as an actor and as a stand-up, yes? Yeah. And this.

And this. Yeah. Yeah, and this. But what's your first love? Comedy? Who knows? You don't love any? No, you do.

I do comedy because I have to, in my mind, in my heart. Like, it's like a, it's a calling. Oh, it's a soul thing. Yeah. I don't always love it. And oddly, since we've had this year of terror off and grief for me, I haven't missed it that much. And in a way, you know, like it's a compulsive thing. It's it's it's how I own my space in the world.

It runs pretty deep. But love is a weird like i can't romanticize it it's like a it's like eating in a way uh i do like to play guitar i do like i like the music but i'm not that i'm not that confident i've gotten pretty good at it but i should it's one of those things where it's like i should play with other people a bit. Yes. It's great. And acting is sort of relatively new for me to understand how to make it satisfying. Right. Yeah, it takes a minute. I mean, when I first came to acting, actors hate when I say this, but it just sort of happened.

I didn't really have, I didn't go to acting school and I didn't train for it. Yeah. It was more a last minute, like I was so broke. I was so broke that I was like, I got to just open any door that comes along. And I ended up doing this little musical that these friends of mine wrote in a garage. Right. And agents came to see it. And they came to see it because Pam Adlon was in it.

Pammy was in it with me. This is when Pammy was like 16. And they came down to see it. What was that called? It was called Backstreet. And we went, and we were in this old play, and these agents approached me, and they said, do you want to have an agent?

And I was like, no, I don't really want to do that. I don't want to be an actor. And they kept coming. They came like two or three times. And then finally I realized, they said, yeah, but you could work as an actor and i was like oh well okay so i just said yes and well how come you're broke because i was broke because you know this was 19 i wasn't sober yet so it was 1984 but i mean like what you so you're touring with beth mittler all over the world

and then you tour with other people there's not a lot of money in that or you're just doing too many drugs and fucking up all that

you have kids yet no no kids no no no who else did you tour with I toured with Etta I toured with Bette I toured with Tanya Tucker oh she's great

oh she was great when she was with Glenn Campbell oh I had great stories and he was on the bus with us and yeah I did that. What a great guitar player.

Oh, an amazing guy. And great guitar player. Yeah, he was. And his kind of, I could say some stuff. I'll tell you later. Anyway, he, and then I did a lot of session stuff. I sang on Olivia Newton-John's records. I was kind of like, I never learned how to read music.

But I have a very good ear. So I'd be, you know. Right, yeah. I was kind of like, I never learned how to read music, but I have a very good ear, so I'd be, you know. Yeah. I could kind of eek by. I also had a manager that was throwing me money if I couldn't pay my rent. How bad are you in the drugs? How bad was I at that point? Yeah.

Pretty bad. I was pretty- Mostly blow or what? It was blow. It was pills. It was alcohol. It was pills. It was alcohol. It was, I was kind of like a little chemist. I was very, I was what they call high bottom in terms of I was still functioning in the world.

Sure, sure. And like when I got. Well, you were also in a world that was saturated with drugs and booze. Saturated. That was just the life, right? That was the life. And, you know, it wasn't until i started working in television and i realized oh shit you know i can't stay up till four in the morning this is a real job i gotta be there

and my first job on television i'll never forget the woman who was in it was a sober person and she would talk about what job was that i'm just gonna say i'm just gonna say it was with mary tyler moore oh okay and mary mary was well known as a sober person and i remember uh i went to that job and she would talk about it and i lied to her i'd say yeah i'm sober too and i'm thinking i'm such a fucking liar years years later she was my eskimo years later i took her out in new york and i told her the truth and i i said i have to thank you because you are the reason i ended up in a room i mean she's one of the reasons what show is that it was called the mary show it was the mary tyler moore's return uh after the big mary tyler moore

show she played a divorcee danny devitoito directed it. He gave me the gig. This is me, like little rock singer. I'm like, what's happening? And they bring me in. And this is after you do the play with Pam? No, this is after,

as soon as I signed with an agent, I got a gig at the Mark Taper in a big musical. Okay. Like an opera, a rock opera.

I played a Russian Jew in a rock opera. Great. That I didn't speak one word and I sobbed and cried. And CBS said, you want to be on a comedy? And I was like, yeah, I'll come audition.

Yeah. So I got the job, and then there was Mary, and it was a whole new thing to me. What was she like? She was very, now I understand why she was what she was. She was guarded. She was very, like, not super engaging. And I think it's because she was Mary Tyler Moore.

No, not cold. Just self-protective. You know, you're Mary Tyler Moore. She's a huge star, yeah. You know, so, but she was great. I mean, she was awesome with me. Like, I didn't even know

how to put my face in the light. She would come over and lift my chin up and say, here, you know, you do this. Yeah, I still don't know which camera I'm on. Me neither. Or when they say camera left, camera right. I'm like, wait a minute. What do you mean? Just raise a hand. I just like, I started to learn how to say like, where's my camera? So we're okay. Which one are we? Okay. Got it. Which one are we?

Okay. Yeah. I mean, in hindsight, I realized, because that job ended. I'm still not sober. And I just thought, well, I'll just go back to my rock and roll, my real job. And you started doing the background stuff again? No, I got married with children, like almost within three months. Oh, I got so, that's what happened. I left that job.

With Mary. Yeah, and then shit got bad. three months oh i got so that's that's what happened i i i left that job with mary yeah and then shit got bad what like what what's what is what does that mean well i mean what if we're talking what does that look like uh i had a boyfriend at the time oh see it's already it's already a boyfriend right it's already terrible i know his There you go. It's getting better. And Spider and I were, you know, he was in a band with this guy named Chucky Weiss. I don't know if you know Chucky. Yeah, Chucky's in love. Yeah, Chucky's in love. The Cantor scene.

Yeah, I was at the Cantor scene. With Ricky Lee Jones and Tom Waits and Chucky Weiss. Yeah, all that. And Spider. And Spider. So you knew young tom i met young tom okay i didn't actually know him i knew chuck i knew chuck really well and i and i know ricky and um and uh so anyway so yeah spider yeah did she write a song about spider no i don't

no i don't think she wrote a song about spider spider wasn't in love i was in love with spider of course and of course i was and uh yeah it got pretty it got you know it just got bad it just got like i would get which is like a daily thing yeah not good yeah you know and and i always kind of knew i knew from early on that that something was, that this is not good. That you couldn't control it. That I couldn't control it. That's what I knew. And so who got you?

How did you end up over at the Log Cabin? At the Log Cabin. Actually, Yucca was my first meeting. Spider ran off. Oh, I know that church on Yucca. Yeah. I don't even know if they have meetings there anymore. Yeah, maybe.

Whatever. I don't even know if they have meetings there anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Whatever. I don't know. But Spider, yeah, Spider ran off with somebody. Yeah. And I went to the meeting looking for Chuck, who was already in the club, hoping to find Spider. And I kind of walked in and there were a bunch of people I knew. And they were like, oh, you're finally here.

We've been saving your scene. I just thought, what are they talking? What do they mean? Where's Spider? Sit down. Shut up. You know, those are the early sobriety days. Sit down.

Shut up. Wash this coffee cup. Don't say anything. And I just heard stuff. And then I just kept going. And I think I was still looking for him. We had so many friends there, though. I did.

I had a lot of friends. I'm sure they wouldn't let you leave after that. Well, and plus, you know. I mean, I knew. I knew it was, you know, it's dark. You know, how many nights can you go through that? We're just jangled all the time. You know, and your prayer is, God, please get me through this one.

Oh, yeah. The worst. The worst. Laying in bed. Yeah. And you can't even time. You know, and your prayer is, God, please get me through this one. Oh, yeah. The worst. The worst. When you're in bed. Yeah. And you can't even sleep. You can't sleep. You can't do anything.

The worst. Well, good. So then, so there I am. I'm sober. And then I. And then you got the gig. And then I started working more as an actor. Yeah.

Then my whole sort of. In fact, I was two months sober when I started working on Married with Children. How'd you get that job? I went to an audition. mean my eight by this time i have an agent right so she sends me out she sends me the script she goes this is a network that isn't even a network yet so we got a good shot at this no and i thought oh well right up my alley because i'm not really uh i'm not your mainstream actor they're gonna like me yeah and uh yeah because i've never really fit i still kind of don't i don't i don't i don't i feel like i don't really fit into the actor community so much yeah and better off and then i really didn't then i was just like yeah

you know so i went in and uh auditioned and and wore funny clothes and ed o'neill was there and we got they were like you know how they pair you up yeah and eddie and i just you know i don't know if you know ed but he's just a super regular dude yeah he's just not actory right and um we got on great so now how much of the character is your creation like how is it versus? I think it was written more to be slovenly. You know, it was supposed to be like Roseanne and Sam Kennison, who I adored. And I thought, no, when I read it, I really thought, no, they have to have something going on. Because these two people have not been married either. So they have to have either a great sex life or something's going on. So I sexed her up i went in all you know like dolled

up and you know yeah kind of like a 50s housewife right away or a little tight dress this is like a defining part of the show well they liked it they liked the hit on it so um yeah i mean that was always my thing like if these people are gonna fight and you know she you know something has to be can you imagine can you believe what a lightning rod that show was at that time unbelievable and how it defined that network you know for to this day and that if it weren't for your show like the simpsons probably wouldn't have happened but it was a cultural lightning rod can you imagine such an innocent time where marriedried With Children was the lightning rod, the cultural lightning rod. We were all stunned.

I mean, I think, you know, for the first three years, you couldn't even get it unless you had like rabbit ears on your TV. You couldn't get Fox. Yeah, you couldn't get Fox. And so we didn't even know it was successful. We knew nothing. And then we kind of, Ed and I will never forget, we went on some tour of bowling alleys or i don't know they sent us out on some like something yeah and everybody was relating you know and we'd get fan mail saying oh my family is just like that or i live next door to those people or blah blah and i thought oh wow this is really uh people are uh this is like regular people it

was a great caricature of a certain type of america yeah it really really was people liked her clothes people wanted my pegs clothes i mean it was it was wow it could land on either side the people that got the joke and then the people that were the joke oh totally and then the people that hated the joke and then you know boosted our ratings because they kept trying to get us off the air right right the right. It was mostly lefties, right? No, it was this one woman, I'll never forget. We sent her flowers every year. Her name was Terry Riccolta.

And Terry Riccolta wrote this whole thing about, you know, her kid can't, you know, this is not okay for children, so blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, so it was like... Tried to get us off the air. Karen's, the old version of the Karen. Exactly. And all it did was got us on the front of the New York Times, and it doubled our audience.

People loved it. Yeah, they loved it. It aggravated people. Yeah, it really did. Well, it was a great run. It was a long run. It must have made you pretty rich. Yeah, I got pretty rich.

Yeah. And then I got pretty poor, because i then i then i got divorced and well wait what so when did you start having kids i started having kids when i was on married with children my first child i lost it was really another sad you know i got sad stories i had a stillborn child and they had written it into the to the series uh-huh and then i lost that baby oh and so that was horrible so they made it blah blah and then after written it into the to the series uh-huh and then i lost that baby and so that was horrible so they made it blah blah and then after that i went on to have my two older kids and and i was pregnant on the show and then they would send me home and pay me they were

so like just go home lay down they weren't going to take the risk again uh-uh so it was a great oh that must have been so brutal to have that expectation, then have to go to set and like. It was horrible. It was really, really heartbreaking. But I also look at it like I wouldn't have these amazing two older kids that I have if that hadn't happened. I wouldn't have anything. Oh, so in the divorce, you were the one with the money? Is that what happened?

Yes. It's the fucking worst. It was hard. And this was the first husband? The bass player? Second husband. This is the drummer. Oh, okay.

The drummer. Who? I only have kind things to say about now because- Two kids with him? Two kids with him. Okay. And I wouldn't have them without him. And you guys get along?

The kids get along with both of you? Yeah. Everybody's okay. It happens, right? You know. Eventually? Yeah. Everybody's okay. It happens, right? You know. Eventually? Eventually. It's taken some time, but eventually, yeah.

And you landed on your feet? Landed on my feet. Somebody said to me, oh, don't worry about money. You'll make more money. Someone said that to me, too. When I went through that divorce from that woman, see, right when you start talking about it, it comes, like it's sort of, and I'm way over it. But the point being, people said, don't worry about the money.

I'm like, I got nothing going. And I landed on my feet. Yeah, you land on your feet. I don't know. You know, that's kind of how I sort of live my life like that now, too. I just sort of feel like well this looks like the shittiest thing that could ever happen however uh I've been there before and then it wasn't the shittiest thing that's ever happened so maybe maybe I'm gonna look at it that way well what

I start to realize is that none of it's unusual it's something humans go through no matter what it is right there's nothing that's going to happen to you that's going to be like, that's never happened to a human before. Oh, absolutely. And there's something comforting about that. It really is. And that goes from going broke to getting sick to death, whatever. All of it. It also goes to the thing that you think is impossible to accomplish.

Yeah. If you can find that one person that's done it. Right. Then that means you can do it too. Sure. But also there is something to be said about acknowledging your limitations like i'm not going to be an astronaut oh yeah i know i think that comes with age i think so i think you know like it's helpful but i wish you could do it i recommend as people do it yeah if you have talent understand what and

how to use it so it doesn't strangle you from the inside, you know? Yeah, but how do you avoid, if you're creative, not being strangled from the inside? I don't know. I think it all kind of goes hand in hand. There's some things I can't understand. Me too. The self-loathing thing and how that becomes an engine,

I don't quite understand that. And I don't like when people think that you do it on purpose. Because it's like, why would anyone do that? Why would anyone nurture that? Like this idea, it's like, you're just like that so you can create. I'm like, believe me. No. I do not.

I don't want to be like this. No. I mean, it's the whole, you you know it's like trying to turn your head off you know it's like i i don't want to think this much i've gotten better man do you meditate i i i am an inconsistent meditator i've been so on it lately have you been meditating but i didn't do it for years right i just started like four or five months ago oh that's not what kind of do you have a breath i. Andy Biddle dummy. I'll always fuck his name up.

Headspace app. Oh, yeah. Andy Biddlecomb. You're the third person recently. I should listen to. I went to a teacher. It's just a guided breath meditation. There's no visuals. It's counting breaths, staying in the breath.

When thoughts come, get back to the breath. That's it. Do you do it more than once a day? Once a day, 15 minutes 15 minutes okay that's great see see I went to a teacher who said to me you have to do this twice a day for 20 minutes and I was like that's the TM thing TM and I could and I've done that consistently for periods of time and then I can't and then then I screw up my own expect you know my expectation is like well if I can't do it twice a day I'm just not gonna do it

at all and so that's messed up that's the only thing i'm learning from it all during this thing this lockdown and whatever we've all been through is like if i don't have this routine right and like i i don't like now i get up like i i started doing like five sun salutations about 10 minutes of yoga and then i do the meditation every day but i also work out with a trainer three times a week and hike twice a week so i'm like on it wow but i do it even when i wake up it's like that thing about when you first get sober you make your bed that shit like i still do it right like i get up to today i'm like maybe i'll just put the meditation off and then i'm and then i'm doing it right i'm doing the med like that voice is secondary now oh I love that

right do you feel better or do you feel centered I feel like I did it right which is good right it's a lot of it

I don't know what the meditation is doing for me I think it's a cumulative effect I mean to me what I understand and what I've experienced is that you spend that time observing your thoughts right that's what experienced is that you spend that time observing your thoughts,

right? That's what meditation is. Well, you do see the difference between you and your brain. Exactly. That's happening. Right. The difference between mind and brain. Right. So then you don't attach so much to all those crazy thoughts. Well, it's like that whole thing about feelings aren't thoughts or whatever, but that aren't facts. But I aren't thoughts or whatever. Aren't facts. Aren't facts. But I still have problems with that. They kind of are facts. They may not, you may not, the thoughts that go with feelings may not be the greatest. And you might not want to act on them.

But, you know, feelings are feelings. But I think it's like that sober thing, too, where it's just sort of the next right thing. Like there's that trick of getting into the present where you really start to realize and i've known this for a long time but i don't think i've known it as deeply since i've meditated that most of what you're reacting to your brain is making up for one reason or another completely you know and you don't have much control over that but you can with meditation separate it right more successfully i think i have a friend who's a big meditator who always tells me that the brain is the brain's purpose is to tell you to turn right uh and then to turn left and then to get you know go when the light is green right and we we assign all these other things to the brain the brain is not to figure out all the stuff that we try to figure out well

yeah and i used to say that all the time i we try to figure out. Well, yeah. And I used to say that all the time. I just got to figure out. I just got to figure this out. I just got to figure, you know. And it's so fucking dumb. Yeah. Think your way through it. Well, it's dumb.

Well, and then, you know, that's the whole deal. What are you going to figure out, though? Yeah. Figuring out is not a step. Is not a. Yeah. And then there's just the paranoia, the resentment journey. Oh, no.

Where it's just like it comes out of nowhere. I'm grateful as fuck, and everything's fine. Everything is fine. I cannot sit with that. Even during this fucking lockdown, every day, my nature is to get up and go like, oh, fuck, I got to. What? What do you have? Nothing.

Yeah. There's nothing. Well well it's an alcoholic response you know if you really believe that alcoholism lives in your brain yeah which is really what it is the substances aren't really what it's about yeah the alcoholic thinking yeah fucks with us and it tells you uh-oh before it says oh boy it's like you know you wake up just like oh here we go here we go and then you know you know, you wake up just like, oh. Here we go. Here we go. And then, you know, through the process of recovery, I don't think it ever stops. That's what I've learned.

I don't think that that initial sort of, uh-oh. This is my 22nd year. Yeah, so you just learn how to manage it. That's my experience. You just learn how to not. But you know what happens, though, is like you do deeply realize and understand that some shit just is not that important and you know that's the relief of age and sobriety is that like yeah it's like what the fuck was i worked up about like if you think back on all the insanity it's like this is stupid i know i mean i used to really yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah relationships

and work those are my those are my big insane, you know, trying to figure out what if and this is going to happen. I mean, nothing is, you know, it's like, you know how it's funny when people say to you, how do you make those career decisions? How did you plan to do blah, blah, blah? And you're just like, what do you mean? I didn't plan anything. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. That's right. And, you know, somebody offers you this and I didn't plan anything. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. That's right. And, you know, somebody offers you this and you take, you know, it's really.

Flying by the seat of your pants. Exactly. Trying to hide your desperation. Exactly. That's what I, that's what I feel too. But like I, yeah, relationship, like six years ago, I had, I, I asked a mentally ill person to marry me. Oh, wow. Like, I never realized the depth of my codependency

until I got into a relationship where I could not see it. Yeah. And, like, everyone around me was like, dude, no one said anything, of course. Right. But I broke up with this woman, and I had to take out a restraining order, and I got back together with them.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That shit is done. That's not going to happen to me again. See, that stuff, I think when it gets that extreme, I really do think you won and done. I think you learn it. I think you really know. Then you see the signs.

Especially if you dodged a fucking bullet. You dodged a bullet. Yeah. I remember my second marriage and I didn't know how to get out. I didn't know how to. And there was all kind of shit going on. And I was like, I got to second marriage and I didn't know how to get out. I didn't know how to. And there was all kind of shit going on. And I was like, I got to get out of here. And I couldn't get out.

I was like, and, you know, my next husband, who's my current husband, I would like, you know, I just was more aware. I just had a better picker. I remember my first coffee date with my current husband. I took my sponsor with me. Really? Yeah. Because I thought, I don't know what's good yeah i was like i brought my security team i did like it halfway through she goes yeah i think you're good it's okay so she left that's cute it was well it was necessary i was not you know yeah i don't like to repeat my i don't know that's one of the benefits

of benefits of sobriety i don't know where the fuck i got the energy man i don't know like i look like i just got a kitten you know and i've been through this shit with these cats before you know where it's just you forget the insanity but like i look back at certain relationships like even the horrible ones where i was a monster and whatever like i don't know where it comes from but it's it's probably still in there somewhere the monster sure oh 100 are you, I don't know where it comes from, but it's, it's probably still in there somewhere. The monster? Sure. Oh, a hundred percent.

Are you kidding? I don't think we lose our defects. I mean, that's why, you know, the benefit of sobriety is the benefit and the, and the struggle is now you're awake. You are awake. You can make choices. You have, you, and you have no choice but to do. I mean, I suppose you can just live in bad behavior. You can just sort of do that.

However, you're just, you know, you're awake and aware and you have to take responsibility and you're accountable. It's terrible. All that shit. Oh, man, I'll tell you what. I know, right? So then you go shopping too much and hopefully you don't have. I just try to balance sugar and caffeine. Like I can't even let myself do the shopping to the degree i should i should have a good time oh i know so we all right

we good we get it all covered i think so i don't know we didn't talk much about work oh we did talk about the beginning yeah like it was like uh watch my new tv show yeah yeah the rebel it's just rebel rebel rebel she's saving the world. She's trying to, yeah. She's actually a very- Very entertaining. She's an empowering, thanks for saying that. She's an empowering, what I like playing about her the most is she empowers other people.

She's not- It's all about that. She's not about, here, let me catch the fish for you. It's about here. Take the pole. Yeah. Go down to the stream. Yeah.

And figure it out. Yeah, no, it's enjoyable. Great. Did you do any Jew stuff? Any Jew stuff? No, I don't. Passover or anything? No.

My dad was more a socialist than anything else. He was not a religious Jew. One time we had a Passover. This is funny. We had a Passover service at my house, and my dad put on this record by this guy named Moshe Oisha. Yeah. And he was trying to follow the record right and so my little yiddish grandmother comes over and was so condescending

and mean to him yeah and just like laughed at him yeah so that was it there there went the record there went passover there went you know that was it but you never went over to the leers or anything like that oh no no i did i had i had passover with the Lears about five years ago. All of us came over. Yeah. And he had all the kids over in my family. The many Lear kids. The many. And then their Lear kids.

Generations, yes. Yes. He's got awesome kids. Well, he's got a kid that's in his 20s or 30s. Twins, yeah. They're girls. They're twins. Oh, okay.

Yeah, that he had with Lynn. They're wonderful. They're great. He's, you know, I love Norman. I did his podcast just a little while ago. I didn't know he had one Lynn. Uh-huh. They're wonderful. They're great. He's, you know, I love Norman. I did his podcast just a little while ago. I didn't know he had one. He did.

The last time I saw him was at, I think it was at Bob Saget's birthday party. Oh. Is that possible? Yeah, it's at Bob Saget's birthday party

at somebody's house that's built on the, where the Tate house was, the Sharon Tate house was. Big producer of, probably that show Bob was on oh yeah I was at a party at that house too and Tom Jones performed is that the same house probably big old house oh my god I went with Craig Schumacher do you know Craig Schumacher yeah sure so Craig

invited me the love master so he invited me to this party and we went and he goes come to this thing and Tom Jones is gonna you know and I was like hey man it's one in the morning where's tom jones i'm tired yeah and he came he finally showed up yeah me and uh norman and i think bill burr uh had a cigar the old man smoked a cigar love it was it by the grotto do you remember that water grotto it was somewhere in there yeah it's but this is the house that that guy built, right? The producer. Yeah. What was the show that Saget was on? You know, with Bob, with the drummer, with John Stamos. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. My kid watches it now.

Not growing. I can't think of the name now. But yes, that show. Made a billion dollars, that guy. A billion dollars and built that house. Well, it was a pleasure. It was really nice to see you, meet you. I feel like I had met you before, but I don't

know if I have. Well, we've known each other for centuries. Have we? Sure. It's good to go back to many lives. All the way back to the Ukraine. Ah, maybe. Yeah. I know. It does seem the older you get, it feels like you know everybody. Well, there's some people you just kind of, you get a sense of.

You vibe with. You're going to have some hand sanitizer? I am. Knock yourself out. I will. Thank you. Well, there's some people you just kind of, you get a sense of. You vibe with. You're going to have some hand sanitizer? I am. Knock yourself out. I will. Thank you. Well, good luck with the show. Thank you so much, Mark.

I'm thrilled to have been here. It's nice to see you. Bye. How was that? That was great, right? How good was that? I had to get her, I gave her a mug

and it broke and she hasn't gotten back to me. I want to get her a mug, a Brian Jones mug that isn't broken. It's so nice to have people back in the room here. Also, did I mention Katie's new show, Rebel, airs Thursdays on ABC. It premieres tonight at 10 p.m. Eastern. I did two takes on this music because the first one I didn't want. I just landed on another another stinky blues

riff that moved me in the moment. Thank you. ¶¶ Boomer lives and Monkey and La Fonda Cat Angels fucking everywhere but Sammy the Red is here and Buster's on top of it Too many cats We'll see you next time. Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced

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