WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1218 - Yo-Yo Ma

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

Yo-Yo Ma remembers a moment in his childhood where it all began to make sense. As a seven-year-old prodigy, he was playing cello in front of an audience that included two U.S. Presidents. But it was an act of kindness and respect from the actor Danny Kaye that helped Yo-Yo look at the world in a different way. He also tells Marc how he found the meaning of art and culture in the Kalahari, why he developed a friendship with Mr. Rogers, and why he chose the title “Beginner's Mind” for his new musical narrative project for Audible. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck Knicks? What the fuck Aristas?

What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. I'm just trying to make a lot of extra mic noise. How's that? Is that good? Is this enough? How about some, yeah, a little creaking. How's that? Is that good? Brendan, you getting this? I just want to make sure there's a plenty of extra mic noise for my producer and for you people to know that I'm active. I'm an active adult. Look at me. I'm moving the, yeah, it's going all over the place, up and down, active. Is this the wrong time to be doing exercise?

Hey, take it easy. Let's fucking relax. We're going to get through this. A few of us are. Most of us are. Maybe. Some of us aren't. Maybe most of us aren't.

I don't know anymore. Yo-Yo Ma is on the show today. Yeah, Yo-Yo Ma, the cellist. Yo-Yo Ma, the world's preeminent cellist. He's also a United Nations Messenger of Peace. Talk a little bit about what that means. And he has a kind of memoir out right now. He's calling it a musical narrative that combines a narrative about his life along with musical compositions.

It's titled Yo-Yo Ma Beginner's Mind, and it's on Audible. Okay? Yo-Yo Ma. Prodigy. Genius. Preeminent cellist. It was weird, you know, what i get in my head about people i think i've talked about this before approaching an interview

i get an idea in my head about somebody i put them in a place in my mind a pedestal off a pedestal i think about their work and i think about what they do i make assumptions about who they are but it's sort of an interesting thing happened to me when I was talking to Yo-Yo Ma and there's some sort of evolving understanding I'm getting about the magic of performers. I don't know if it's a respect it's developing. It's interesting. I can't quite put my finger on it, but you know, I've been talking to musicians lately, you know, people that perform for thousands and thousands of people. And like, I don't know, comedy, whatever.

You know what I mean? Something bad is happening in comedy. Comedy seems to be slowly becoming some sort of weird team sport with different camps of people. And, you know, it's just I never got into comedy to be on a team, to be compared or, you know, to win. You know, it was always about like, I can do this myself and speak my mind and do what I do over here in this corner. I just want to be left in this corner on this stage doing what I want to do, speaking my truth to the people that give a shit and then alienating them. Speaking my truth to the people that give a shit. And then alienating them.

But. I'm a touring guy. A lot of times. You know for a good part of my life. You got to get out on the road to make the shekels. To do the thing. It's how you get by. It's not glamorous.

When I was starting out. Going out and doing gigs for $800. Wednesday through Sunday. and that was a lot of money that was a big deal that was how we did it wednesday thursday one show two three shows friday two three shows saturday maybe a show on sunday featuring 800 bucks sometimes you can eat at the hotel for free, eat at the club for free. They put you up, sometimes in a condo that's gross, sometimes in a hotel that's okay. That's a road life. Road life changes, you know.

Some people get into the bus thing. I find that as time goes on, I don't like having a lot of people around. I don't like touring with a ton of people. I don't really want a lot of people around. I don't like touring with a ton of people. I don't really want power or want to be looked to as some sort of guide of any kind. I don't know what to do with that. I'm getting off my point. My point is the work of people who do the magic of being on stage is something odd and something it's a gift.

It's a weird skill because I talked to them here and they're just people. I've talked to some huge performers here and they're just people, but they get up there and they do the magic and they make thousands of people feel great. They transcend. They take people on journeys. They make people forget themselves for a while. But when I was about to talk to Yo-Yo Ma, my brain just put him, even though he does so many contemporary things, does all kinds of different musical styles, traditional Japanese, classical, country, rock. He definitely takes chances. country rock like you know he definitely takes chances he definitely moves that sound that he makes through all different types of audio landscapes the cello is kind of a magical instrument out of all the instruments it really is transportive but there was always in my brain

you know thinking about yo-yo ma the yo-yo ma i mean he's a guy that you know he's up there in the rare air he's a genius of the cello he's he's respected historically he plays an instrument that's made hundreds of years ago and there was just something about the idea that like when that guy performs generally he's wearing a bow tie so how can he not be doing okay and i'm'm not saying he isn't doing okay, but there's a moment during this conversation where he basically says, you know, I got to go out there. I'm on the road all the time. And for some reason, I didn't put him in that world.

I didn't think of Yo-Yo Ma being a guy who's got to, you know, load up the suitcase, load up the cello and hit the fucking road and hope that they have like, you know, you can eat for free at the hotel or you know or at the club obviously he gets treated well but when you do a gig and you're a cellist you when you get there you got to have the guys the guy be an orchestra gotta be a the the chamber group or whatever you got to have that set up you got to have a conductor who wants you to come play you know you gotta you gotta get your tux cleaned gotta have your bow tie straight but i just thought that meant that is that he would always

be taken care of and he probably will be but it doesn't mean he doesn't have to go out and hit the road and then i started to think like who goes to see classical music can you tank is it how many people go to see it who's going to see it is there a half a house of course sometimes there's a half a house is Carnegie Hall always filled for the chamber music stuff for the classical pieces for the orchestral stuff no on some level Yo-Yo Ma is a touring musician and in my head I'm just sort of like, the bow tie must mean that he never has to worry about anything. That there's this whole angelic realm

of people that honor this, these historical pieces of music that bring to life these symphonies that only a few people understand. That it's just, that is the world of the aristocracy of art is the world of, of the aristocracy of, of art is the world of classical music.

But no, this guy's got to pack his fucking suitcase and hope the shit is there at the other end and hope the guys can, you know, are up to snuff that he's got a jam with. The bow tie had me all fucked up in the head. And this is a decent guy, good guy, virtuous guy, guy who does good shit for people.

You know, it's weird because, you know, I thought, I don't know, you know, this guy's been playing since he was four. I watched a TV appearance, or not a TV appearance, him performing for the president. And the president was, uh, Eisenhower, I believe, uh, or maybe Kennedy, but he was seven. And you always think like those guys might be freaks, but some of them turn out okay. And he certainly did very nice guy. Well, rounded guy, funny guy, decent person. His, his newest Yo-Yo Ma Beginner's Mind, is available for free to all U.S. listeners on Audible right now. And this is me talking to Yo-Yo.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestsellingselling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life will i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply apply. You're in your garage and I'm in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Oh, you're in Cambridge.

You're not in out west. Yeah. People's Republic of Cambridge. I spent time in Cambridge. I used to live in Somerville. I lived in that area. Right, you went to BU. I did go to BU.

Did you have a car? I did have a car, yes. I had a, at that time, I think it was a Volkswagen Golf. Oh, I love that. I love those. Do you? Yeah. They're great.

They're zippy. They are zippy. That was one of my favorite cars. It was an 89 Golf? Yeah. They're great. They're zippy. They are zippy. That was one of my favorite cars. It was an 89 Golf. Yeah. I remember being told that it was made at the Porsche factory, and I was like, that's why it's so great. That's right. That's right.

It's got that extra zip that they put in there. Why Cambridge? Do you teach at Harvard or something, or are you just there? I don't know. or are you just there? I don't know. We're just like, you know, we just, I think we thought this is a good place to live bringing up kids because you have a transient young population. Yes.

So it's close to the airport. Is it? Well, you know, it's unlike LaGuardia or Newark or JFK. Oh, okay, for you and traveling. Yeah, and you can, you know, so you have an airport that can get you to lots of different places. And you're close to the ocean. You're close to the mountains. Are we talking about Cambridge?

What mountains? Well, the White Mountains. That's that, you know. You're living in a different Cambridge I lived in. You're making it sound like it's the perfect place. Well, you know, I'm trying to sell you my house. I thought it's time you should, you know, like move out of your garage. You need a house in Cambridge.

I want to move to your garage because I would love to have a garage. You don't have a garage? Not really. I mean, I'd love to have a garage that's kind of like a studio, you know? Like it's a really nice, it's, that's a cool thing. This is like a house. I had to make it into a house, like this garage. It was sort of a kitchen.

Do you have a kitchen? Yeah, there's a kitchen in here. See? It's like, you know, you could live in there. You could be in a wheelchair and go right in there. Sure. Yeah, no, it's great. And I got all these sound panels all over the place

and I play guitar out here and I record this. I like a very dead space. You know how that is, right? I imagine playing cello, right when you walk into a space, you know exactly the acoustics of it no you know what's great about dead space it keeps you honest because when you when you're in a really beautiful space that has lots of warmth and reverb you can sound like a you know horrible and you say

god i mean this is just like me in the shower in the morning. I sound great. Who needs to practice? You know, we're in a dead space. You hear everything. Pretty quickly says, oh boy, man. Yeah, yeah. I am not as good as I thought I was. Yeah, this is.

Do some wood shedding. Well, I mean, but when that happens happens for you when you have a moment where you're like i'm a little rusty i mean what does that mean like how do you know when you're rusty do you usually it comes from a wounded ego when my wife comes in and says says are you you are you all right yeah yeah i'm fine it's just because are you sure that you, are you all right? I said, yeah, I'm fine. He says, because,

are you sure that was like in tune? I said, of course it is. You know, immediately. Of course. Yeah. My ego starts,

yeah. It says, are you sure? You know, it says, and I play it. It says, wait,

are you sure? And then I start, you know, steam starts to come out of my ears. And you say, I am yo-yo ma. Don't you realize that's why I practice? And then she walks away. And then, you know, I calm down and I say, okay, I think I'm probably really, really in.

Because your ear forgives a lot. and if you are not looking for something you won't find it it's it's sort of like it's sort of like after you're 50 you're you're over 50 right 57 yeah so you've had you've had your first colonoscopy yes couple i've had, well, I enjoy them, so I go every few months. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know. Each to their own. They love you because you're a repeat customer. Yeah, I'm clean, I'm clean. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, that's, look, to each his own. That's all I can say. Thank you very much. So you're saying, but what happens to your ears? I know what happens to my ass. So what happens to your ears is that you forgive yourself and like a colonoscopy, you say, if you have it, they discover something, they need to do something about it. Right, right. And it's like, if you don't really check for intonation or something, you just kind of- Oh, really? If you don't really check for intonation or something, you just kind of say, oh, it feels good, everything's good.

But then you start to look under the microscope, everything is awful, is out of tune. So it's like you have almost like an auto-tuner in your ears after a certain point? Yeah, you have to check and recheck. Almost like an auto-tuner in your ears after a certain point. Yeah, you have to check and recheck. It's sort of like taking your music to peer review group. They look at, you know, someone says, well, you know, I think you haven't thought about this and that.

And another guy says, ah, well, you know, you should think about this. And then you realize, okay, well, I better go right back to the drawing board and see how it goes. And I think that's actually not a bad thing as long as you can still forgive yourself. Because those perfectionists that are always unhappy and they walk around with a scowl on their face and they just kind of realize, well, you know, it's horrible. I started out that way. I started out with higher standards and I used to go play a concert, you know, 15, 16 years old. Someone said, yo, that was really good. I said, no, that was awful. And, you know, what's the other person to think if someone else, someone thinks it's okay. You're taking away their experience.

Exactly. Do you do that? I mean, you do these podcasts. You have standard. I do comedy. It's just sort of like, well, I mean, the podcast is not the same. But like when I perform for an audience and you can tell, you know, your engagement with the audience, what you're getting back as a performer, what you're relative to what you're putting out as a performer that, that again, no matter what age you are, it's easy to misjudge and you can read into it. So, so, you know, if

you're insecure enough or you're hard on yourself and someone comes up and says, that was great. And you're like, no, I don't know what show you were at, but that second, that second movement was terrible. I botched the whole thing. They're like, what are you talking about? Like, I don't know what show you were at, but that second movement was terrible. I botched the whole thing. They're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, never mind. Thank you. See you later.

And you ruined their night. So did you ever stop doing that or did you? Yes. When and why? Because I realized it was unfair. Yeah. And that, like, you know, a lot of times what you're put, the pressure you put on yourself is not relative or does not read to what someone else experiences. So it was really just about, like, you know, you have to let people have their experience. That's right.

And even if they're just being polite, you have to let them have their experience. I mean, they could say that to you and walk out and go like, he was really off tonight. Exactly. Well, that's the worst thing, because if you feel you had a good experience and someone else had a terrible experience, then your whole calibration is completely askew, right? Oh, then you're just mad at them. Like, if you have the best night of your life and someone walks up to you and goes like, not your night, huh? You're like, what? Oh, then you're just, yeah, then you're just mad at them. Like if you have the best night of your life and someone walks up to you and goes like, not your night, huh?

You're like, what the, what are you talking about? Wait, that's my podcast. So, but the thing is, you then start to question everything because, you know, every critic has some reason to not, let's say, like something. There's a legitimate reason there. They have personal problems that they're projecting onto you.

Yeah, it's really, it's very easy to blame someone else's problems. But assuming that someone is, you know, well-intentioned and they are critical and you feel everything went well. Yeah. That's a very deep existential problem because then it's like saying, okay, your radar wasn't tuned in. Well, yeah. I mean, if you trust the critic and I think that good criticism when it is directed at you, if that person has, you know, a well of wisdom and experience and

you trust their judgment, I think that you can learn a lot from criticism. And I think that, especially if they, if they do recognize something that you might've recognized, but didn't really want to think about, or they put it into a different frame than you would see it. And I think that's sort of interesting about like, you know, your evolution as, as an artist is that, I mean, I watched you on, on, uh, I watched you perform for, for Ike and Kennedy on, uh, on YouTube when you were seven. First name basis with Eisenhower, but not, you know, but yeah, we're not, no JFK. Yeah. Okay. All right. Just, just, just before my time, JFK.

Okay. All right. Just check. Both before my time. They were both gone by the time I was born. But to see you go out there after being introduced by Leonard Bernstein to this incredibly white, proper audience to perform for the president. But from that moment, you seem very well adjusted for a child prodigy right i mean the the i can't imagine the pressure that you you must have gone through for i don't even know how long in your life uh to to it seems to me that a lot of prodigies become kind of compressed freakish uh people

but you seem to be very you know open and continually growing and evolving musically. I mean, why are you looking at me this way? How did this, how did it, what I want to know is how did it start? Like, when did you know that you had this gift? And did you feel at the time that you had the gift that you were, that you were a vessel for something bigger than you were, you were just in it? Do you know what I mean? What you're talking about is that you were looking at a seven-year-old child who just recently emigrated to the United States and had no idea who Kennedy or Eisenhower were. They were important people and who loved the other performer

that was on stage, who was Danny Kaye, conducting the National Symphony Orchestra. And so at the end of the evening, I remember thinking to myself, I want to be like him. I want to be like Danny Kaye, because he was funny. Yes. And he made the orchestra stand up and sit down and shout and laugh. I mean, the guy was like all powerful. I mean, forget the political leaders. Here was a guy who made things. But he did something else that was incredible. I have a photo of me as a seven-year-old with my sister. as a seven-year-old with my sister.

And there was Danny Kaye crouched, looking at me, talking to me at eye level. Now, that is amazing. Now, I don't know if you remember yourself as a seven-year-old and being around very tall people. Yeah. They're giants. And you have to crane your neck to look at them and being around very tall people. Yeah. They're giants, you know. Sure. And you have to crane your neck to look at them,

and they look down at you, booming voice, and it's like, the world is a scary place. And here's this guy that I just admired so much. And, you know, talking to me at eye level, that was amazing. It's a lesson, you know, in retrospect, that I think really, really impressed me. There was this hero, you know, the guy that I wanted to be, and he was actually my size. He shrank himself to my size. And that was amazing. To connect with you yeah yeah and and i think and to this day if i see a child you know and if my knees hold out i'll i'll do the same thing because because it's it's it's actually makes everybody comfortable well where did you immigrate from paris don't i look french

yeah of course you look french yeah but your folks your folks are from china yeah they're from china they went to france to study music my father left in 1936 so my father had gone through uh i think parts of the japanese invasion the beginnings of the chinese civil war and so he went through parts of World War II there, and then he was in Paris during the Nazi invasion. So, he had World War II from two different parts of the globe. And my mother left in 1949, which was sort of right at the time that I think the Mao took over all of China. And so she went to study voice in France, in Paris. So she was a vocalist and your father was a... Music student in terms of violin, composition, musicology. And so... So you grew up, it was all over the place.

It was tattooed on both my arms, my forehead. No, I'm kidding. I mean, I had musical parents and a musical sister, a very musical sister. So my existential problem was that, well, I have many problems. The first problem was I started on the violin, which I was not good at. And I was two and a half, and I gave it up because I just sounded awful. It could be because my sister played violin too, and she was four years older, and she sounded great. And I thought you know i can't i can't do it so you were two and a half when you quit the violence yeah i that's you know i i was like i was embarked on many different careers you know and so my parents thought the boy's not talented And I think I saw a double bass when I was four. And as a four-year-old and as a second child, I thought, I want to play the biggest instrument there is. And that was the double bass.

And I couldn't because it was- At two and a half? Well, at four. At four. At four. Yeah. You would have to climb up on it. There was a scalar? Well, at four. At four. At four. Yeah. You would have had to climb up on it. There was a scalar problem, right?

Yeah. And so we compromised on the cello. And so I had to promise that I wasn't going to switch again. And then I, so I stuck with it. But my existential problem was that I never made a decision that this is what I really wanted to do. It just was there. I did it. I think I was okay at it.

Are you telling me right now you're going to change? You're going to quit? Try something else? Maybe. I'll have you know that. So one April 1st, NPR did an interview with me where I was supposed to say that I was switching and retiring from the cello to take up the Argentinian bandoneon. Oh.

The accordion, the Argentinian accordion. So they asked all kinds of questions, you know, and what does Emmanuel Aschus going to say? Doesn't he think that, you know, that's kind of a silly thing to do? I said, no, no, not really, because, you know, he always said the piano repertoire was much better than the cello repertoire. And the bandoneon, you can play it like a keyboard, you know, so it's like I'm getting closer to more important repertoire.

to more important repertoire. And so this was, I realized afterwards how much fun it was to lie. Just lie through your teeth and just make things up. And my manager got a phone call to say someone wanted to hire me to do my first concert

on the Bandoneon. And of course, it was anil fool's joke volkswagen volkswagen but like you know when i listen to because like my music like i i can't i'm not gonna i can't pretend to know anything about classical music really and i i don't it's not even that i don't appreciate it it's just after a certain age it seems like too deep a rabbit hole for me to even begin with. Like I kind of started doing jazz, you know, as a grown up. And even that is hard for me to it's a hard mountain to climb in terms of artists and who does what and who's great at what. But when I do listen to you, no matter what kind of music you're playing, I am transported in a way.

And I and I feel that you are sort of a conduit, a vessel of something amazing. I know that it's virtuosity. But when you were younger, were you pressured or did you pressure yourself? Did your parents hound you or were you able to absorbach at seven, just magically? Okay, so there are probably three layers of answers to that. The first one is, I think my parents really wanted me to be a musician. And I had Asian parents. I had tiger parents. Not one, but two tiger parents. And so there was also the immigrant pressure. You got to make something, kid. You got to do something with your life.

And so I think I remember when I was seven, I was on the bus in New York City. I had to take two different buses. Do you ever have a bus pass, right? Sure, transfer. A transfer. I was holding on to the post or whatever you call it. And I figured out mentally how to solve a technical problem on the bus without the instrument. So that makes me think I must have been good enough at that level to be able to kind of extrapolate away from the instrument

to figure out something visually that I can solve a problem. There was pressure to do music. I think I liked, I loved music. And I played Bach, you know, when you're a kid, you're like a sponge. Yeah. You just, you don't analyze things. You just, you know, you could hear a song at nine years old, and, you know, my kids, when they were little, they'd know the tune, they'd know the lyrics,

and they're not even trying, right? Yeah, okay, okay. I mean, but there are different size sponges, you know what I mean? Right, but true, okay. But as a child, you know, I'm like other kids, and this is what, I think, I went through many stages where, like, you know, I was in college, and I had a teacher who said to me, you think you're good, but you know nothing. You know nothing because you don't know why you're doing it. Interesting. So that was in college that happened? How old were you?

I was 19 or something like that. And this is a music teacher? Yeah. Yeah. I had a music teacher. like that. And as a music teacher? Yeah, yeah, I'm a music teacher. But you know what impressed me was that when I was nine years old, I read in a book that one of my heroes, Pablo Casals, said, I am a human being first, a musician second, and a cellist third. And I thought to myself, this is great,

because my parents want me to be a cellist. And they don't understand. I'm a human being first. They don't get it. And guess what? So Casal said it in the right order. I wanted it to be in the right order, but it took me decades to get to the right order where I had to be a cellist. I tried to learn how to be a musician, how to advocate for people's voices who are no longer with us, whether they're dead or it was too long ago, or people who are alive who represent certain voices that I have to understand and advocate for. And after decades of doing that, I realized that ultimately,

what I do, and this is my long-winded way of answering your question, is that the reason we have technique is so we can transcend it and get to the most basic reason why we do music is because we do it for one another and we're human. That's it. That's it. And every time that I play, it's for somebody who is, you know, that I'm actually trying to communicate with. And I say to myself in a live situation, the most important person is not me, is not even the composer, it's the audience member. Because the music, until it reaches someone else

and lives in that person, I'm not doing my job. My job. So what you're saying about the vessel is absolutely right. My job is to transfer this stuff so that someone, it gets inside someone's, under someone's skin and lives there and they react to it and it's theirs. And it connects people. Yep, absolutely. But I have to imagine that when you're younger, your ego was invested in a different way.

Totally. And it was probably more hung up on your performance. Absolutely. That's what probably what my teacher was referring to, saying that, you know, the music, yeah, it's about you, but you know, really not really. Were you competitive? Was I, I was competitive. No, I was too confused to be really competitive. I wanted to just figure things out. When you were a kid, really?

When you were in your teens, you didn't feel like, you know, when another young gun came along, you were like, nah. Because, well, first of all, I was homeschooled until I was seven. Because, so when we were in France, we were homeschooled. And then I entered second grade in New York City. And the life at home was pretty regimented. So I didn't see a lot of friends my own age, didn't really have play dates. Because you were practicing?

I was practicing. I was doing language theory and French and Chinese and piano and theory and all kinds of stuff. Oh my God. When you're seven? Seven until I was 15. Yeah. And then when I went to college, I sort of had to learn how to have friends because I was was dying to have friends i was dying to see people my own age but i didn't go so when i went away to college eventually it was not a music college it was you know a liberal arts college which meant that there was nobody to be competitive with because everybody else was doing something else. Well, let me ask you, like in retrospect,

in the way you sort of explain or talk about coming from Asian parents with expectations and immigrant parents with expectations and immigrant parents with expectations. Was there a point where you resented the discipline and your parents were putting you through it? I don't think I knew better. It wasn't like I had much to compare this to. It was a unique situation. That's why I view those years as my unconscious years.

Well, in a way, yeah. I mean, I had very limited sort of space to operate it. But all this time, what do you do when you're in space? You kind of develop your imagination. You read books. You're by space? You kind of develop your imagination. You read books. You're by yourself. You think about things. You wonder what's what.

And I was dying to interact with other people. And when you went to, what did you study in college? Well, I studied all kinds of different things. Well, liberal arts college, which meant you take courses in anything you're interested in. Which college? I went to Harvard. And it was outside of basic courses that you have to take. I took courses in literature and history and astronomy and in different literatures, Russian, and history and astronomy and in different literatures russian german french chinese uh and and guess what it was amazing because every subject was like a different world

and and it was all new to you a lot of it was new to me. A lot of it started to answer questions that I always had. I loved anthropology. Well, I loved anthropology because it was one way to analyze, to think about the different cultures that I had come from or that I had met without prejudgment. I think one of the things that anthropology did for me was to actually look at what are the values that each culture places priorities on.

Interesting. What did you find the common thread was? Well, I think the common thread was that you're rotating similar values, but it's just that some culture might have a slight priority of one thing over another. And as a result, a whole system of habits and beliefs became that way, right? So, whether you see Anglo-Saxon culture or Latin cultures or Germanic cultures or Russian cultures, there's just slight changes, like between North and South in the States. Like between North and South in the States, you have slight differences that then people turn into larger societal differences. Defining characteristics. Exactly.

those cultures without a prejudgment or prejudice to say, well, this is bad, or this is good, or this is better. This became one way I could explore the world with gusto, with great curiosity, and meet people from where they are. And also what I noticed about you and how you present yourself and the nature of music is that it is apolitical. It is apolitical. So, you know, you go into anywhere you go into as Yo-Yo Ma, the virtuoso, that is your gift.

You don't need to speak. You can make yourself open. You can be available to engage with people without having an opinion, but with this tremendous craft that is elevating to anybody. It's a universal language. So in that way, you can probably absorb more than the average person who goes in with an ego, with an opinion, with a judgment, that you can sort of go anywhere in peace with music. Well, I think, well, that's a nice way of putting it. I mean, I think certainly a lot of that holds absolutely true. I would like to think that music is apolitical until someone makes it political. I would like to think of it as apolitical.

I do think that some of it is, you know, that kind of approach is, for me, is also not just a good thing to be, but it's almost a matter of survival. Because if you think about the life of a touring musician, my norm for the last 45 years was to be gone eight months out of 12 months. From the age of, what, 15? No, from the age of early 20s. I've been married for 42 years. For 27 of those years, that was my life. So until the pandemic, I've never been at home so relaxed and unstressed in all the 40 years that I've been married. It's amazing. It's amazing. Well, it's, it's interesting to me that what I noticed immediately was that there is

a, sadly it took a pandemic to realize it, but there's a relief in knowing that nobody's really doing anything. And, and that, you know, that like, if you, you cannot work because no one's working. Yeah. So you, so that, that part of you that puts that kind of pressure on yourself no longer needs to be active. So there's a freedom in that. Absolutely. The freedom to actually be in some ways your younger self, but with more experience. You know, the younger self of life is wide open. You don't have daily scheduled responsibilities.

Well, let me ask you, you made choices over the last 45 years to tour as much as you do and record as much as you do, right? I mean, it wasn't just a job. I mean, it was the life that you chose and wanted to live, right? Well, absolutely. But think of it this way. I am an independent contractor. There's no safety net for- No, I get it. I'm in the same boat. You too. Yeah. So you know that life, which means that you're as good as your last gig in a certain way. And you're as good as how much someone is willing to trust you

based on what you've done cumulatively. Right. But you're the best at what you do. You know what? So let me give you an example. You're going to tell me they're like, hold on, let me see your resume. No, but I'll tell you because when I was growing up, I had a lot of heroes. And gradually your heroes die.

Yes. 10 years after they die, you talk to another generation says, do you remember so and so? Who? Yeah. I tell you, it's not, you know, and the fact that we live in a very busy and competitive hierarchical world means that there's not so much space for that many, let's say, cellists, but you go, you're gone. And I don't think, you know, so I don't think that people maintain necessarily long memories about things. Not anymore. Right.

But for me, memory is incredibly important because I think, like if I play a concert and you go to it, you've invested a certain number of hours of your time in a very busy life. And if you're commuting from your garage to a place of the hall, and there's traffic, there's parking, there's all of that stuff. And I've flown from, you know, this is part of the eight months I'm gone every year. So I want to make it worth your while. So I want to make it worth your while, and we want to make it worth each other's while to actually try to remember tomorrow what we did today. And if you don't, and if I don't, there actually is no reason why you should be there and I

should be there and I should be there. So I'm actually totally invested in creating memories that are unique for every place that you're in. And there's no shortcut to creating those memories except for really caring about being there, about trying to find out as much as possible who you are and for us to know who we each individually are and what we care about. Because otherwise, why are we doing it? Right, and also I think that you do that in all these different forms too,

that your curiosity has enabled you to take your your skill and your talent into you know multiple different disciplines uh musical disciplines and and and genres so like you know it's not just that you know this experience or this memory or this evening or or or whatever but you know you are expanding your repertoire, you know, out of your own curiosity, which seems to what I guess with the anthropology element of your education, when did you start to realize that music and form kind of travels in and out of different forms? Like, you know, there's a moment I saw, I think you're on NPR or something talking about Bach and that, you know, within this classical compositions, you have different

bits and pieces from all around the world in music. And it seems that, you know, for me, I'm sort of a blues-based guy. And, you know, when I had Taj Mahal sitting in here and he picked up this crappy guitar I have, and he was able to play something that almost seemed Senegalese that seemed to travel to the beginning of that type of music. I mean, it seems that part of your journey is evolving that understanding of the nature of music around the world. You're absolutely right. And you're absolutely right about the blues. I mean, I think the blues in terms of just the numbers of cultures it draws from. And you look at the instruments, you look at the banjo, you look at the blues scale. about human creation out of putting different roots together and then forming something new.

But isn't that with everything music, all music? It's also with all of biology. You know, it's how these things combine and recombine to create what is seemingly, you is seemingly new, interesting forms that actually speak deeply to people's experiences. What's the most ancient thing or frequency or vibration that you've tapped into as a cellist? Like which type of music?

Because I listened to the Japanese music you did. And I mean, you can do the Brahms and Beethoven and Bach and everything, but there's something that you have a sensibility and I imagine it takes some practice to adapt of the peoples that we studied and through films that were taken in the 1950s were the Bushmen of the Kalahari Desert in Namibia and Botswana. one film of a blind musician who played on a gourd-like instrument and sang. And so it's like with the tapping of a stick and on the strings, the most haunting music. And the film was called Bitter Melons. And I actually have a roommate who recently told me that he remembered my coming back to the dorm so unbelievably excited, saying, this is unbelievable. I got to find out more about this. This is just, you college, I went with a film crew to Namibia to do a film on the music of the Bush or oldest it that trip opened up for me after watching the trance dance practices where you know basically you offer to kill a cow have a feast day. They did the trance dance, and we all participated in it. And the people sit in a circle, the women sit in a circle,

and the men who are talented go and do this rhythmic motion around the fire for like eight, nine hours until they get into a trance. And then there's a laying of hands and people are invited from other villages to actually be cured. This is like a shamanistic thing. So there's a generous impulse and the rhythmic clapping and the smoke and all of that gets everybody into this state. And for me, this was their most complex cultural ritual. It served as their medicine, their form of medicine,

their form of religion, their form of entertainment, and of spiritual communal sort of gathering. Now, the next day, I interviewed two of the women who had clapped and sang all night. I said, you know, why do you do it? And they said, because it gives us meaning. And they said, because it gives us meaning. And that was and still is the meaning for me for anything that we do that is culture.

And the culture for me is not classical know, Van Gogh or whatever. No, the culture is what we deem as important and meaningful in our lives. Whether it's thinking about, you know, your grandparents or thinking about, you know, holidays, important holidays, meaningful holidays, what we do, why we do it. Yeah. You know, and so I've been guided by that ever since. It gives us meaning. Because if it stops giving us meaning, it doesn't have any meaning. It's all gone.

And that makes sense to me. And I think what I was saying to you about being apolitical, it was obviously some music is written for political intent or to motivate in either good or bad ways, depending on the culture it comes from or what have you. But I just meant you as an emissary. So you, as a musician, as an emissary of this culture, of this passion that you have, of this meaning,

that's sort of what I was talking about. And I think it sounds like this experience that you had that changed your entire perception of what meaning means. And it did revolve around ritual and music. I guess what's interesting to me in relation to that is you take that to whatever as as somebody who honors other people's compositions more so than create your own. You take your meaning. You take that impulse to any type of form that you do, like whether it's bluegrass or tango or anything else. That's right. and what you're sharing in what I meant by apolitical is that you can travel anywhere and be this respected vessel of this music and this meaning.

You could perform for people that maybe are vile and awful people and still be enjoyed. Well, the thing is, that's interesting that you say that, because I think that the other thing that I believe deeply is that we're all capable of both the most vile acts in the world as well as the most transcendental human achievements. And it's not that they're good people and they're bad people. No, we are the people. We contain that. And depending on how we happen to be born or constructed or nurtured, these different aspects will come out. And so if there's anything I can do in music, it's not to say I'm playing for good people, bad people, or rich people, or poor people, or green people, or rich people or poor people uh green people or purple people but it's rather

is to actually celebrate uh the deepest of what you know humans are it's our humanity you know it's like let's let's forget all the names and categories and whatever when we're sitting in a room together we are one and and with the vibrations in the air molecules that the sounds are making it's touching all of our skins and entering into us and it turns whatever is the other into we and And that's, even for a moment, that's the reality of the moment. And if music, whether you define, however you want to define music, genres of music,

actually all of music takes us into specific states of mind. Yes, right. It beats chemically produced drugs all of music takes us into specific states of mind. Yes. Right. It beats chemically produced drugs because it actually, the state of mind is produced by human biochemicals that we manufacture ourselves. Yes. Yes. Right? I mean, so that's our own substance that we are creating for ourselves.

Do you feel like with different forms of music, you can feel different things happening to you? Totally. Totally. And I only realized that when someone asked me at Tanglewood, I was doing like a Q&A at one point. And someone said, you know, you played the Dvorak so many times. And how does it feel to play for the 984th time? And I said, you know, I thought I had just played with these wonderful tango musicians who are backstage.

They never stop playing a tune. So it's like there's a moment of silence, someone will pick up an instrument and start something and then inevitably everybody will join it, right? And I'm thinking, okay, so the difference is if I'm playing a written piece of music, that happens less with musicians who are doing something that specific. And the difference is, if you're doing someone else's music and it's not your own, versus if you're part of a tradition, you say, this is us, this is, you know, if you own it, you don't get nervous and you can't go wrong. But if you think it's somebody else's and you have to do it exactly this way or it's wrong, that's a terrible attitude to have.

And in fact, you want to have the attitude of saying, this is our stuff. No matter what you're playing. Exactly. And if it's yours, you own that thing. So every time you play that thing, no matter how many times you do it, it's yours. You can't, exactly. And it can't go wrong because you could make a mistake, but you don't kick yourself for it. It says, well, that's a mistake or I didn't mean it that way.

But actually, there are no mistakes because everything, it's ours. And we just, you know, we know it for what it is and that leaves room for new things to happen depending on who you're playing with and who you're being backed by and who the you know what they're bringing to their instruments and so anything that could be hundreds of years old can you know come to life every time you play it in a different way absolutely and when something goes wrong so sometimes i carry i carry an extra set of strings with me on stage because sometimes strings break. And if a string breaks at the beginning of a performance, I think I'm living the life of Riley. You know why?

Why? Because after the string breaks, everybody goes, you know, big drama, right? You put on the string, you come back on stage, everybody's happy, applauding, they've just seen something unique. And because something untoward has happened, you're free for the rest of the evening, you can do no wrong. And again, that's, you know, it's like you i'll know that he's on your side if i see you do the string breaking bit you know too many times i'll know that it's a trick exactly that's why i only do it every 17th concert and if you're there you know you'll know this is that thing i heard about this yeah yeah He needs to freshen it up with the string break.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So how, like when you're honored as a UN messenger of peace, you, that's not something you, that, was that a surprise to you? Of course. I mean, you don't apply for it.

You know, you know, the guy. You do with your life's work. Yeah. No, you know, you know, the, the guy, the guy who was campaigning for the Nobel Peace Prize and said, I'd kill for the Nobel Peace Prize. So, well, first of all that I've been reappointed. And I've actually gone through many iterations of asking, what does one do? What do you mean you're a messenger of peace? You know, you go around the world and say, peace?

You know, what does that mean? And it made me think about it. It made me think about, well, what does that mean? And I was told at that time was that you continue to do what you do, which didn't help very much in terms of figuring out what that meant. But I think it helped me think much more about common humanity. I think one of the messages of the UN is one of the words they use for everybody is dignity. words they use for everybody is dignity. And I've been saying this in the last couple of years, is that, especially just around the pandemic, for people who have lost people, who have lost things.

But I included in the dedication of some music to say, all the people who have lost someone, but also including those who have lost their dignity. Because I think if you take away someone's dignity, that's almost the worst thing you can do. Because you're taking away, you're crushing their soul. And when I say that in an audience, you actually kind of hear either a slight intake of breath or a sudden silence, deeper silence, because it's unexpected.

And I really mean that, because there are enough times that I see right around, whether it's people to people, people take away each other's dignity without reason. And sometimes without even realizing it. And I think part of being a messenger of peace could be just being more mindful of that. Of other people's dignity. Yeah, of just being mindful of what happens around you. You know, so often, like when Danny Kaye was putting his eyeballs to eyeball to the kid, right? Right.

It's like, you know, eyeball to eyeball to someone who's bringing you coffee, you know, as opposed to, you know, like looking at them and saying thank you. you know as opposed to you know and like looking at them and saying thank you you know that's give someone just the dignity of being a fellow human being someone just the right you crack right as opposed to well you know that's your job you know and I'll give you a tip and that's it no that's it's there's more things are more than just transactions. And if we reduce everything to just a transaction, we are actually diminishing our own humanity. Transaction is fine. It's great. But it's very easy now with the way technology works. And it also relates to what you're talking about being remembered is that there's a short,

what you're talking about being remembered is that there's a short, people have become shallow in terms of what it means to be a righteous human being. Exactly. That's right. And I think every one of us can do more to be, just to be mindful, Or to be, you know, just to be mindful. Thanking a child for saying something. Thanking, you know, just, it's, and I find that actually one of the only ways I can, could cope with the pandemic is actually, is to think more about just being grateful for what we do have. Was this project that you embarked on, Beginner's Mind, the memoir and the music, was this all birthed during the pandemic? Was this how you utilized your downtime when you had that moment where you're like,

wow, I'm not on the road. I'm actually talking to my wife. How many kids? Do you have kids? Yeah, I have two kids and three grandchildren. You have two kids? Yeah. Three grandchildren? Yeah. So you're like, I have all this time, but I'm going to do this work.

It's about choosing how you use your time. I think, and I really, I'm grateful for that because it felt in some ways like an enforced sabbatical or early retirement. You know, so it was like, oh, so this is what retirement might feel like, you know, like you get up in the morning. Yeah, I felt that too. Really? I felt that too. Yeah. too. Yeah. Well, it's again that what we talked about before with knowing that no one else is working and that you can't really work, that you turn that part of your brain off and you're like, it's not kind of nice having time. What do I want to do with this time?

Right. That's right. You know, and everything, it's like, you know, some people were complaining about how long the days were. I'm like, look, if you're retired, you want those days to be long. You don't want it to run out on you. Well, the funny thing is that, again, when you're a child, time is infinitely slow. Yes. Right? Like, you can't wait for summer to come. Well, and it's April, and it feels like it's like 10 years from now it's going to be summer.

And now, two months feels like nothing. It's like 10 years from now it's going to be summer. And now two months feels like nothing. But during a pandemic, time actually, you can re-slow down time and enjoy and savor a longer day. Now structurally, the idea of beginner's mind, do you have a practice? Do you have a spiritual practice? do you have a practice do you have a spiritual practice uh my spiritual practice actually comes from uh during the years of having young children of playing music because the the music always you're going for something bigger than yourself and secondly uh the music also, nobody can call you or interrupt you, which means you're in a zone, and it's a zone that is absolutely meditative, and you are in a different state of mind. Sure. And spiritually, yes, I think I do have my family brought up Episcopalian, and my father was a Buddhist, my mother was Christian, and we have friends who are of all different faiths, and we try and actually be part of their celebrations, which is great.

Sure, yeah. which is great. So, and I think that just the comfort level of that allows me to feel connected to people's spiritual identities. And when you structured this project, by calling it Beginner's Mind, this project uh by calling it beginner's mind what you knew that it was going to be a memoir driven by the music that you layered into it what was the concept i think the music came after uh so you wrote the memoir did you write it as a book or you wrote it i wrote wrote it in the sections. I think there were sort of, there were two people I wanted to really focus on, sort of the development of like 40, 50 year friendships.

Emmanuel Axe is a pianist and Catherine Stott, another pianist I met when I was literally a teenager in early 20s. And I wanted to, what we talked about earlier about sort of the non-judgmental approach of meeting someone or meeting country or culture, I kind of think that that's beginner's mind. The beginner's mind is, you know, you're wide open. You have no preformed judgment on things. You just kind of tell me what it is.

Tell me what it's like. And I think that, to me, is something that, especially when I get older, you have to actually be conscious of to be able to have that beginner's mind in order to really come up with new, to accept new things. Continue to be curious and wanting to learn.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, because you can be wide open in a sort of desperate broken way, but to be wide open with joy and curiosity is, uh, is, is where it's at. I think so. And, and if you're open to that, you're always learning and you're always teaching at the same time. And when, when did you, like, what is this? When did you and you and Mr. Rogers become buddies? When did you and Mr. Rogers become buddies? Well, at that time, I think it was probably 1985, my son was two years old.

He loved Mr. Rogers. So every time Mr. Rogers came on, he would look at him. And then I was asked to, do you want to do an episode of Mr. Rogers and do Sesame Street at the same time? I said, yes, absolutely. Are you kidding? Which father would not want to kind of, you know, do something that your son is really interested in? So I met him and true to form, he was, you know, when I first met him, he put his face within like three inches of my face. Now, you know about social distancing these days, but you know about- This is another Danny Kaye situation. This is another Danny Kaye situation. Well, in a way, but even closer.

And I felt so uncomfortable because, you know, there's kind of acceptable social distancing, right? Sure. And he came so close and I started sweating. I thought, you know, what's going on? Why am I so uncomfortable? Why am I so uncomfortable? Only to realize later on that what he was doing is exactly what a child does to an adult. You know, they grab onto your teeth.

They pick your glasses. You know, they don't have social distancing. Right. And so, he, in a way, when he talked to people, he stripped himself of all the social habits that we develop as, oh, we shake hands, you know? I pat you on the back and says, hello, how are you? But he just says, hi. You know, it's so nice to see you. And I'm thinking, oh, no.

You know, it's so nice to see you. And I'm thinking, oh, no. But it's so disarming when you realize that that's the degree that he transformed himself to be the trusted person in the child's world. And we developed a friendship because he was a brilliant pianist. He composed all the music. He did all the singing, all the characters. And there's something on YouTube where he's playing jazz piano. And he and his, unfortunately,

Joanne has also passed away this year, his widow. Also a wonderful pianist. And so we just somehow developed a very, very lovely friendship for many kids. Well, it sounds like you learned things from him. I learned not only a lot of things from him, but my son became a documentary filmmaker in the last seven, eight years. He was one of the producers for the Mr. Rogers film, Will You Be My Neighbor? And he was the one who told me so much more about Mr. Rogers that I did not know that made me actually come back to him and realize

this was a he was a giant i mean in terms of what he how much he dedicated his life to the life of children so i guess like what i want you to tell me now and i'm trying to frame this question so it's not a question that i would be annoyed with uh if i were asked a similar question okay in terms of uh craft but you know as somebody who does not know a lot about classical music what which piece of music when you are going to play it do you sort of like have to like get into shape for where you're like, I love this, but it's going to take everything I've got. So obviously there's no one, one piece of music and, and it also changes. That's the issue. Yeah. And it also changes from every part of your life, depending on where you are, you know, like for example,

part of your life depending on where you are, you know, like for example, so I haven't played a public concert in, you know, many, many months. So I'm about to do something that's sort of like a virtual concert, just shy of my 50 years playing a debut recital in New York. So on May 6, 1971, I found out that I gave a New York debut at Carnegie Recital Hall. And what I'm doing is trying to replicate some of the pieces that I played at that concert. Now, when you're 15, or when I was 15, I knew nothing. But I could play the cello.

And so obviously, I wanted to show that I could play the cello. So the pieces that were chosen, a lot of them were very difficult, virtuosic music. Which ones? Because he wanted to show off that he actually deliberately, supposedly cut off the strings. And so there's one string remaining, and he plays the whole piece on it. Pieces like that. There's a Locatelli Sonata, which is an early Italian sonata, that is filled with just very difficult stuff. And I'm trying to think about the concert as beginnings. You know, the first piece of music I played

when I was five, I gave a little recital and I played a piece by Bach. My cello teacher, Leonard Rose, when I first started studying with him at age nine, one of the first pieces he taught me was this Francour Sonata. One of the first pieces he taught me was this Francour Sonata. And so it's like revisiting certain beginnings.

And for me to play this at age 65 is kind of a test, right? To say, because, you know, when you're young, you feel you're immortal. You could do everything. You don't have much experience. At my age, I have a lot of experience. Athletically, I'm slower. So what gives? So I just wanted to kind of test myself and to show, again, without prejudice, because I may make it, I may not make it, I may do well, I may not do well. But I'm going to try and put myself through the hoops to see what's the best I can do.

Maybe it's like a golfer trying to kind of... Yeah. But also, like you said earlier, but you know now that the one thing you can do, no matter what happens, is make it yours. Absolutely. Except that if you're trying to do something technical,

right? I get it. Play at a certain speed. Well, you're gonna have to you're gonna have to practice i can make it mine and still miss the run and it's my miss you know so right right sure sure it's interesting though because like i uh you know the rolling stones put out a blues record a couple years ago like straight up blues and they really hadn't done that and we've been waiting decades for it you You know, it could have been the, it could have been a song list that

they had done on their first record. So, and the thing about the blues, not unlike, I think, you know, anything composed, which is different, but you know, if you can, you can play it, if you know how to play what you're playing, you can play the blues and you can play what's written down on the paper. But the interesting thing about, you know, the blues, which, you know, can be very tiring and very boring music because everybody can play it is that

the Rolling Stones now 50 years in, they played this blues record and it was so essentially a Rolling Stones record. Yet they were these old, you know, like it's what you're talking about. Yeah. Like, you know,

anybody can play the blues, but only the Rolling Stones can be the Rolling Stones. Not in the same way, in the Yeah. Like, you know, anybody can play the blues, but only the Rolling Stones can be the Rolling Stones. In the same way, in the same way that, you know, anyone who can play the cello can play the cello, but only Yo-Yo Ma

can play the cello like you. So it's going to be an exciting event, I think, no matter what. Well, I don't know, but I can tell you what I've figured out so far

is that a lot of the difficult things that were difficult then, there are new ways of solving the old problems. So there's some advantage for that. What I will not have as an advantage is, I'm not practicing the same way I used to practice when I was 15. Well, you better start.

Exactly. And the thing that's, so you just don't know where the breakdowns are going to be. Did you try a piece? Is this what you were playing at that vaccine site when you got vaccinated? No, no, I was just, you know, I had my cello with me because I couldn't keep it in the car. And I said to my wife that if I take it in, people might say, well, you're going to play something. And I said, I was not intending to, but I was also slightly thinking it might happen. And it might happen, you know. Yeah, right. And it did happen. And of course, you know, I said, sure, if you want me to, I'll do it.

Because I actually love doing stuff like this. I love playing for people outside of the usual venues. It just makes it so much more personal. Oh, of course. And so, okay, so back to the practice. So what are you going to do? Well, you're now reminding me that I need to practice slowly, you know, because if you slow things down, you hear more accurately, you are more in tune with every tiny step of what you need to do on a neuromuscular level.

And so, again, it's about the control of time and space and your muscles that allow you to be free enough to be expressive at the moment. Oh, great. So, you know, if I mess up, I'll blame you. I said, look, I told Mark I was going to do that. And I did that. And it obviously didn't work. You know what, dude? I think this is one of those times where you got to break the string out of the gate. Yeah, dude, break the string after the first few minutes. And then, you know, you've got the sympathy. Yeah, but Mark, there's one problem. there's not going to be a live audience so i'm not going to hear the gasp they're not going to

be on my side you can but you can assume that it's going to happen you think so yeah yeah just do the string breaking thing i think you got it okay fine i'll have i'll have two options one i'll tell you what i'm going to do is practice slowly and second second, I'll break all my strings. And if that doesn't work, I'll still blame you. Okay, I'll take it. Is that all right? I'll take the hit. That's fine with me. Okay.

I'm sure it's going to be great. And it was certainly a lovely talk, Indy. I really appreciate the time. Well, it's great to talk with you. And I just want to tell you that I've appreciated, so loved listening to you. I've heard a number of your podcasts. Obviously, I heard the one with Obama.

I've heard the one with Terry Gross and also Phil Lawson. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah. And if anything brings out our common humanity is that we we have to go through it you know and and we have to get back up so yeah and it's so interesting that what you said earlier about you know music and and you know changing your your brain chemicals is that that lynn you know, changing your brain chemicals, is that Lynn, you know, every morning, she would take a bath and sing loudly, loudly in the bathtub,

because I think it really, she meditated and she sang loudly every day, like at the top of her lungs. And I think it was really to get her brain in the right place for the day. Wow. Her way of greeting the day. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. And one of the things that comforted me through it was knowing that on some level,

obviously it all happened to all of us, but also losing people is pretty human and pretty common and not unusual, you know, whether it's tragic or not. And, and I, and I did find comfort in the humanity of that really. Yeah.

Yeah. But, but again, uh, really an honor and, you know, and I, and I,

and, and someday I'm going to learn more about classical music. No, you don't need to listen. This, it's like sort of saying someday I'm going to learn more about classical music. No, you don't need to. Listen, it's like sort of saying, someday I'm going to learn more about life. I'll just listen to it. That's all. I don't need to learn.

I'll just listen to it more. Yeah, or listen, if I come to your town, are you in LA? Yeah. Okay. If I come to your town and you have a free night and you know we can go to a concert or you can come to a concert

if I'm playing and we can schmooze. We'll do it. I'd love that. You know? Yeah. I'd love it.

Just like free. Yeah. It'd be great. Unweighted. Yeah. No recording. Just hang out. Okay man. Take care of yourself. You take care too. Yo-Yo Ma, Beginner's Mind, available for free to all US listeners on Audible

right now. Go listen. Great guy. Interesting life. And he's got work for a living man bow tie or no bow tie here's some music i'm gonna learn some new chords someday i swear i promise i'm gonna learn some new chords but here are the three i always play Stammerer Thank you. Boomer lives! Monkey, Lafonda, cat angels everywhere. I'm going to die. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family.

Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead, courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to kids night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.