WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1223 - Nancy Wilson

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

Nancy Wilson is one of the world's great guitarists, a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee, and creator, along with her sister Ann, of one of the great American rock bands, Heart. But after more than 40 years in the business, she's finally releasing her first solo album. Nancy tells Marc what led up to it, from opening for big rock acts to writing massive radio hits to headlining giant arena rock shows all over the world. Nancy explains how things got messy within Heart when romantic relationships cropped up and she details how they were able to navigate the cocaine-fueled ‘80s to score some of their biggest hits ever. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast wtf

obviously i'm not broadcasting from where i usually broadcast can you hear the bounce can you hear the echo can you hear the windows i'm surrounded by windows and just beyond those windows are is the the coast of florida and the atlantic ocean i can look out and see the ocean. I'm up above the ground. I'm in a fairly fancy suite because I had to move up here. I had to. Yeah, it's a real problem. And it's fucking beautiful. I came down here as somebody. How's it going? I'm sorry. I'm being rude. I'm just going on and on about myself. How are you? Take a breath. Let's take a breath.'s take a breath all right you're all right all right so anyway if you didn't know I came down here to visit my mother I got two weeks out from the second shot on the 22nd which was her birthday my brother moved down here so I figure let's you know it's been a year over a year

since I saw my mother it's been almost a year since I saw my brother and his new girlfriend and my mom's boyfriend. The whole crew, my cousins, my uncle and aunt are down here. So this was the trip I decided on. But I don't know about you and I don't know if it's within your financial abilities. But I also decided never to stay at my mother's house again. I don't know if any of you can understand the implications of that or what that means. But at some point I decided I don't care where I stay,

just not in her house. And it's really the best decision you can make. I don't know what your relationship is, even if your relationship is good. It's nice to be able to just, yeah, I'll be over there in a few. I'm leaving now, as opposed to wake up and be like, what's happening? it's nice to be able to just, yeah, I'll be over there in a few. I'm leaving now as opposed to wake up and be like, what's happening?

Why am I seven years old again? Why am I 10 years old again? Why am I acting like a 14-year-old? Why am I mad at my mother? I'm 57 years old. This is bullshit. I didn't want to wake up. I didn't want to, I don't know what I want to do.

Can I just, can I have coffee? Do you have coffee? You don't have coffee in the house? Seriously, you don't have coffee in the house seriously you don't have coffee in the house holy shit so where I got to drive down you know what never mind I'm good I'll go yeah all right you want to deal with that anyway it's been okay but let me I'll tell you more about it let's let's first you know deal with what's with what's happening on the show. Nancy Wilson is here. Nancy fucking Wilson is on this show today. Yeah, from Heart, from the rock band,

from the mega rock band, Heart. She's one of the world's greatest rock guitarists. She's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And oddly, after 40 years, 40 years in the game, she's finally releasing a solo album this week. And it's good. I don't know what age you are or who you are, but Heart played, Heart factored in, man. For me, I'm 57.

Heart definitely factored in. I'm trying to think when that, I think that first album came out in 76. So junior high, high I mean come on Steamboat Annie Magic Man Barracuda all those first two or three hard albums were just on constant rotation on AM radio FM radio in my brain there's I've got some memories man I talked to her about it I talked to her about it I you talked to her about it. There was the drive, the famous drive, Mark Maron's famous drive. It was me, Dave Bishop, Chris Fisher, Andy Perreault,

two cars driving from Albuquerque to Denver, Mile High Stadium for Sunday Jam 2. Yeah, Chris was driving his Maverick, a white Maverick. I believe at that time I had the shit brown Datsun B210. Why we took two cars, I don't know. But we took two cars and we kind of like drove in unison the 10 hours to Denver. And I remember there was a disgusting, I remember I was working at the Posh Bagel back then. I was a manager. I must've been 16 years old. Point is we had stopped at where I worked because I was managing. I was, you know, managing a shift or two at this place. So I had the keys. It was a sandwich place. So

we went in there before it opened, or maybe it was the night before, made a bunch of sandwiches, got, you know, dressing, dressing mayonnaise all kinds of shit just stole it from the posh bagel and you know i would offer an amends or an apology but eddie the guy who owned the place dead been dead for years so we got all this stuff in the cars and we're driving up there and i just remember at some point between albuquerque and denver colorado on those long strips of highway uh there a food fight commenced between cars to the point where both cars were just covered in fucking Thousand Island dressing and bullshit to where we had to pull over and find a spray car wash to wash off the cars. For some

reason, I feel it was mostly my car because I feel like I was the one at the brunt of things. I feel like that the container of Thousand Island was heaved to my windshield and that we had to stop. Anyways, this is not the story. The story is we got there, Andy dropped acid, and we were on the field. It was Hart. Here's what I remember the lineup to be.

It was Hart, UFO, the Rockets, the cars, and the fucking Nuge, if that's possible so we get there andy's tripping and at that time at the top i feel like i've told this story before but it's relevant to me seeing that was the last time i saw nancy wilson and i'm going to tell her that i'm going to see if she remembers seeing me in the crowd of 80 000 people but But Andy just watched. There was a giant statue of a horse that was on sort of on the edge on the rim of the stadium back then of mile high. And Andy was pretty sure that it was galloping around the top ring of the stadium. I didn't see it, but I'm not going to argue with him. And then there was the sad girl who was kind of wandering around drunk and, you know, kind of, you know, somehow managed

to stop at our little blanket and throw up. That was memorable. I have no recollection of the performances of any of the bands. All I remember is, you know, we had to keep an eye on Andy and that this poor girl threw up all over our stuff. Great times, huh? Remember high school? Great times, huh? Remember high school? Man, so I got here a couple days ago and my mother has a new dog, a new little weird shih tzu looking thing called Perfect, who doesn't, who bit me twice and does not stop barking. Again, always, if you can, stay at a hotel or an Airbnb of some kind, as opposed to your parents, your parents, which is the French pronunciation of parents house. This dog would not shut up, would not stop barking, but it was nice to see mom. Her, her, her boyfriend, John's been on good, good behavior. Some of you know him as

jazz guy. Hey, what's up? How you doing? Good guy. How you doing? Good guy. What's up? How you doing? Toby, Toby, Toby. What's this? Toby,by what's this toby what are we doing with this what's it how much is your guy jazz guy john is uh he's good it was it was okay i was actually i actually had the fucking spin out i you know cranky john actually had to tell me to take it down a notch i thought i was fucking handling it, man. I thought I was handling it. I was. I'm not going to, you know, it was actually good to see my mother.

I don't know what's gone on in the last year, but I feel a little peace. I feel a little peace with all of it. I guess what we all went through and what I went through personally, maybe it just kind of, maybe the meditation. That's what I thought, man.

I got to my mother's house and this dog wouldn't stop yapping and it was a fucking it just was non-stop John walked me around the garden to show me you know how he's uh fixed everything up and he's you know basically he's almost kind of like cleaning you know the bricks out there with a toothbrush he's he's very compulsively into managing the grounds of my mother's small house. Looks lovely. And, you know, God bless. 83 years old. Something to do so he doesn't lose his mind.

Terrific. But I was very amazed at how, like, how level I stayed. How level. I was like, hey, it's good to see everybody. Look at that dog. It won't shut up. Didn't bother me. I thought meditation is paying off.

That deteriorated. It deteriorated. My brother, we made plans to go out to dinner. My brother and his new girlfriend live up in, you know, they're about an hour from here. And we're all going to go out. And my brother makes the time, 630. And I make the reservation. And I didn't know if John wanted to come.

And I changed the reservation and finally got everything all settled up. Didn't know if John wanted to come. And I changed the reservation and finally got everything all settled up. And then about an hour before, Craig, my brother, he's like, we're going to be late because, you know, Julia is picking up. His girlfriend's picking up the kid. Whatever happened. But it was just sort of like I was like, I don't want to be in the fucking middle of this, man. I didn't come down here to be a goddamn tour guide planner.

Fuck it. You deal with it. You call mom. So that tone happened. Like all of whatever I thought I was doing well out the window. And I held onto it. Sadly, I held onto it until we all got to the restaurant. I, you know, I, yeah, I went the, I went the whole fucking lose my mind route. You know, I get to the restaurant at six 20. We decided to keep the reservation. So Craig and his girlfriend, Julia are not going to be there until seven. And I'm sitting there at 625 to meet my mother and John, who then text me.

They're like stuck at the bridge. They're going to be 20 minutes late. So imagine a normal person would have just been like, well, this is what it is. It's okay. There's no hurry, whatever. It's good. Not me. I texted my mother and said, this is fucking ridiculous.

You're ridiculous. It's all fucking ridiculous. I don't need this shit. I'm probably going to leave tomorrow. to my mother and said this is fucking ridiculous you're ridiculous it's all fucking ridiculous i don't need this shit i'm probably gonna leave tomorrow i don't know where that behavior came from but it's nice to know it's still in me isn't it isn't it so nancy wilson uh has just released her first solo album she is obviously half i would say half of the band heart but there's a bunch of people involved with heart but she's one of the wilson sisters and she's the guitar playing one and she's a fucking monster on guitar and it was kind of exciting to talk to her because i go so far

back with their music it's definitely woven into my brain for sure so this is me uh talking to nancy wilson and she just got, she just released her first solo album and it's very good. It's a Nancy Wilson album. It's called You and Me and it's out this Friday and you can get it wherever you get music. This is me talking to Nancy Wilson. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations? How a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category?

And what the term dignified consumption actually means? I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. So it's so great to see you. I think the last time I saw you, and correct me if I'm wrong, and tell me if you don't remember. Be honest. I think it was at Sunday Jam 2 in Denver, Colorado at Mile High Stadium.

I could be wrong. I think it was you, UFO, the cars, Ted Nugent, and the rockets. Is that possible? I think that was right. That sounds like something that I could easily forget, could have forgotten. Is that amazing? Especially at that altitude. Right. Right.

But, yeah, one of the probably early, early, like, what, 70s? Yeah. Seven, maybe? Six or seven. Yeah, exactly. And Ted Nugent wore the tail. I do want to say the new album is really good. Oh, thank you.

I can't believe it's your first solo album. I kind of can't either. I don't know. I guess I was just so stuck in the heart vortex for so long. Yeah? Doing all that touring and touring and touring. I can't imagine. You're like a huge rock star.

I am. You're huge. Am I huge? You were a huge rock star. I can't, like, I listened to Dreamboat Annie last night on vinyl. Oh, wow. In my living room. That's a good record.

Well, yeah, and I was like, holy shit. Because I'm, I don't know, we're about 10 years apart. Yeah, I was just a little we're about 10 years apart. So I graduated. I was just a little baby kid. Yeah. You know. But when I was in high school, I mean, it's like that album was everywhere. Those first three or four records were everywhere.

I mean, I graduated high school in 81. And it just is sort of like, I remember listening to this in my back of my buddy's Camaro. Yeah. Camaro. Yeah. That's perfect. Yeah. Camaro. Yeah. That's perfect. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Well, you know, and especially if it was Barracuda in a Camaro. Yeah. Oh, man. It was so good. So that's what it was? You think you were just stuck? You had never sat down and were any of these songs kicking around for years in your mind? Well, a couple of them.

Yeah. One of them in particular called The Dragon was kicking around. That's the best song on the record for my money. Oh, you're right? You think that? Yeah. Wow. It's got all the textures that you kind of do.

But it's also, it seems like it's got a kind of more 90s Seattle thing going on in the rocker parts. That's when I wrote it and where I wrote it. Really? Interesting. Seattle in the 90s seattle thing going on in in the rocker parts that's when i wrote it and where i wrote it really was in seattle in the 90s no shit um but you know we came back from the 80s home to seattle you came back from the 80s like it was a week i came back from that week the 80s from those 80s that that little roaring 80s excursion uh-huh and then you know we we went to seattle and we met those guys. Who? All the rock stars from Seattle.

My friend Kelly Curtis, my dearest buddy of all time, was managing Pearl Jam even before Pearl Jam was Pearl Jam. And when Andrew Woods from the previous version of Pearl Jam, he OD'd and we all met up at this Seattle house. Kelly said, come meet my friends. Come to see your home now. Come and meet these cool guys. And they're all kids. Yeah, so it was Soundgarden and Pearl Jam and

Screaming Trees and everybody. Flanagan. Flanagan and Mark Arm and all those guys. Mark Arm! Mark Arm's funny. I've talked to him too. guys. Mark Arm. Yeah. If you order, Mark Arm's funny. I've talked to him too. I love Mark Arm, but he works over at Sub Pop. Like if you order records from Sub Pop, he ships them.

He ships them from his house? No, but he works on this. He's in the shipping at Sub Pop. He like works over there. Oh, yeah. He's an interesting guy. He really claims that he's exactly where he wants to be, that they did exactly the music they wanted, and they didn't have any expectations. But man, those Mudhoney records are great.

They're great records. Yeah. All those guys. Brad and all those people. They must have looked up to you. You must have gotten there. We thought they were going to think we were just old, stupid, big-haired, Hollywood bullshit dinosaurs, you know.

And we were wrong. We were happily wrong about that because, you know, they were like Jerry Cantrell was like, you know, he was like, okay, let's play. You know, we should jam, man. We should jam. It's like, how do you play the beginning of Mistral Wind? You know, which is so perfect because he's the king of dissonance right right yeah yeah and like stuff like check my brain and i love his stuff i love the alice but he wanted to learn

the licks yeah he's like how do you play that and i'm like wow that's cool that you like that you know because they kind of like gave us the hall pass on the kind of the the corporate 80s stuff and the mtv kind of well yeah but it's weird because uh i mean what's astounding is how many hits you actually did have you know in the 80s but it's true but those 70s records i mean no one can touch those i mean no one can judge those i mean i listened to that thing and it was like just under the wire where the production was still clean you didn't have those weird drum sounds. Everything had its place.

Oh, God, those drum sounds. You know, they were triggered. In the 80s, you mean. In the 80s, yeah. But the drum sounds went in the natural room. Yeah, like Dreamboat Annie. Like that was like, it was also clean. Even the synth sounded reasonable.

Yeah. No, I mean, it was an audiophile album, too. Yeah. As it turned out. And that little studio, we thought it was huge when we first went there to record, but its little can base in Vancouver, B.C. was the room. Vancouver. Well, let's start. Well, first, I want to talk about this new record really quick, because now you didn't, who's singing with you on Daughter?

That's me. Just you? Yeah. I thought that I heard another voice under there harmonizing. No? That was me kind of doubling and tripling and stuff. Okay. And here's the surprise for me was you did Paul Simon's The Boxer.

Yeah. With Sammy Hager. I'm like, Sammy. It's not even a rocking song. It's not a rocking song. It's kind of a folk tune. It's a folk tune. How does Sammy Hager end up on your record?

Well, we're buddies, for one thing. Are you from, like, way back? From a while back. My husband, Jeff, and him are way back. Okay, okay. They're Bay Area guys. Right. From way, way back.

So, wait, Jeff, your husband is in the music business? He was in the film and music business, yeah. Okay. Music first and then... What band? No, he was a record film and music business yeah okay um music first and then what band um no he was he was a record guy okay okay cool first with a couple of different companies and then he was a fox okay guy doing a series and film and stuff okay producing yeah okay just seeing and music directing jeff what by water okay so he's buddies with Sammy. So he has old buddies with Sammy. So you hang out with Sammy sometimes.

So I've done some benefits with Sammy before for his annual, you know, hospital for kids with cancer kind of thing. And, you know, he brings in all these, like, great players. And, you know, we just do it almost every year. So he's like, okay, dude, you owe me one. I've got this album I'm working on. So here's this rock song that I, it's actually not on the album now, but it's being used

for sporting placements right now. It's called Get Ready to Rock. And he's, I said, do you want to put a vocal on? And he's like, that's just way too expected. Yeah, exactly. Well to put a vocal on? And he's like, that's just way too expected. Yeah, exactly. Well, what else you got?

And I said, well, what do you think about something really unexpected like the boxer? He goes, I love that song. Oh, wow. So, yeah, so his energy on that, I think is really. Yes, it's definitely not how you hear Sammy Hagar usually. The last time I saw him, I think it was on the Red Tour. I remember he did, what was that song, Bad Motor Scooter? Was it a Montrose song where he plays that lap steel?

And I remember him just sitting on top of this riser with that lap steel just going. And I'm like, all right, what am I doing here? He's incredible. I mean, there's only one of him. Thank God. Yeah, yeah. And also, I like the tune that Duff and Taylor Hawkins played on. Duff's a great guy.

Duff is a really great guy. So is Taylor. Oh, yeah, they both seem like really nice guys. I don't know Taylor. I've actually talked to Duff. But that song, that's a good tune. How'd you get those guys? Well, I went and sang onlor's solo album before the shutdown um on a song called don't look at me that way on his album

which is great called get the money and um i said okay well now i'm i've moved up to northern california now and i'm starting to make a record because of this shutdown. So you got anything laying around? And he said, yeah, well, I've got this jam me and Duff did. So that's their tune. So that's their jam. Okay. Okay. I took it and cut it into little pieces and spliced it back together and wrote the rest

of it. Oh, great. Sang it. But it just, it was an energy thing that I was looking for too. Yeah. No, it definitely rocks. I mean, the whole album sounds clean. The production is nice.

There's some rockers, some folky ones. I mean, it's sort of. Sounds like you. It's home-baked productions, you know, for sure. But it's. Did you produce them all yourself, or did you have someone over there? I produced it. Yeah, you just sat at home and did it?

I just made all the calls. I just delegated. I had somebody recording it. Then I sent it to my guy in Denver who put it in the Dropbox, who then sent it to all my Seattle players who then sent it around among themselves. And that's how it was all put together? That's how it was put together, all remotely. That's crazy.

Nobody in the same room ever at the same time. No, but did you Zoom with people or did you actually did you actually no we uh we played a lot together in heart mainly and so who did oh you're being all these guys in seattle right um that i really know how to play we've played a lot together and we've played the whole last 58 shows on the heart tour together so anyway we had the unspoken language of just knowing how to play with these guys and so then we went it came back to me for the approval and here's the notes i give and then send it back to them and replay this part or do add that thing yeah and so then back to me to approve this. Oh, wow. And then back to Denver to rough mix it. Back to me to approve it.

Yeah. And it's like this part, this and that. Thank God we had the pandemic. You had plenty of time. You were hanging out, waiting to do it. It took the whole year, you know. So was it really born out of the time that you had because of this situation? Yeah, I think, think you know being in a

regular year in heart yeah we would have been so busy and always playing catch up to where you know you're always late somehow for something and or stuck in traffic somehow you know and um being kind of shut in in this new place that we moved to with an actual music space for my own self. Yeah. For the first time ever. Oh, really? I left all my guitars out, and I made all the racket I wanted to make, you know. So you got a studio at home.

So, yeah. That's great. And just a little interface with six tracks. A friend of mine can run better than I can. But, yeah, just, you know, we cobbled it together. Yeah. run better than I can. But yeah, just, you know, we cobbled it together. But it sounds really good to me, like it was in the same room at the same time somehow. It does sound good. And the amazing thing is, is that your guitar playing is like you. You know, like there's a couple of tunes, even on the opening tune where you're like, oh, there's that guitar sound. Oh, nice. It's really

amazing how, you know, some people have a, you know, it's so familiar somehow, but it's a feel that is uniquely yours, it feels like. I love that because I talk a lot about guitar players and when you know who it is. Yeah. You know, that's a really cool thing. It is. You know their style. Yeah. Oh, that's David Gilmour, you know, or.

Yeah. You know, that's exactly David Gilmour's playing. Nobody plays exactly. But it's interesting because that's why you can usually hear it in leads, but I can hear it in your, you know that's exactly david gilmore's playing nobody plays exactly but it's interesting because that's like you can usually hear it in leads but i can hear it in your you know picking yeah i kind of approach it like a percussion instrument yeah yeah so i'm not shy with the acoustic yeah it's great what's that shit out of it that's good at times and it's and it still rocks it's like yeah i didn't even recognize when I pulled that, I've got like, I've actually got the Mobile Fidelity half speed master of Dreamboat Annie for some reason.

Really? Yeah. I'm not sure where I picked it up, but it sounds so good. But like, they still have the label of that label that you recorded on that. What is it? Mushroom Records? Mm-hmm. I've never seen that label before.

What is that? You're kidding. Well, no. I mean, I never noticed it before. What? I've never seen that label before. What is that? You're kidding. Well, no, I mean, I never noticed it before. No, that was the mushroom label that we first put out our first album. Were they like a big label?

The little Canadian guys. They were just like a kind of an underground Vancouver label. So how does it, but you guys are Seattle people. So how does it, but you guys are Seattle people. Right. Well, we went to Vancouver because, originally because Ann fell in love with a draft evader who was in Vancouver. Was he in the band? He was the brother of the guitar player in the band. So this band, because I realized something last night that you and Ann and the sort of songwriting that makes makes that band like the the other cats in the band they're they're great but it seemed like it felt like they'd been playing around like bars and stuff for a long time i like there i had this moment

where i'm like if it wasn't for these women these guys would have just been a bar band kind of a bar band oh my god is that true yeah well i guess i'd have to say yeah but i mean you know that's not the best compliment you could give a band no no but no i did i mean there's a lot of guys like you guys are the ruffles shirts and stuff well yeah right right and then i saw a picture of uh you know i guess who was the the original guitar player roger fisher roger fisher right with a playing the guitar with a bow yeah i'm like all right so you know that that's sort of a jimmy page shingle like it was something to me that like somebody who was trying to be somebody else would do right

kind of derivative you know yeah but like you know it looks good it looks good but if it's jimmy page it really looks good yeah yeah so. So how do you hook up with all these guys? How does that all happen? Well, they had got a band sort of started with Ann as their singer. Are you guys getting along right now? Well, we don't do a lot of communication right now because we're both doing different projects. But not because you're mad? I'm not really mad, no.

I mean, you know. All right. But it's a sister thing. I get it. I get it. But no, I love her. And, you know, there's times, there's a time for all things in our relationship. And this is just this time doing this and not doing that.

Yeah. But they had a thing going with Ann, and they called it Heart. And then Ann fell in love and went to Vancouver. She hitchhiked. So this guy splits because he's about to get drafted. Yeah. And this is like the early 70s? Evaded the draft.

Draft Dodgers. Split to Canada. Old school. Yeah. And so Ann followed him up. Yeah. And the band followed Ann because nobody sings Old school. Yeah. And so Anne followed him up. Yeah. And the band followed Anne because nobody sings like Anne. Right.

So then when I took a year and a half of college before I knew I was going to join, the longstanding open invitation of all time. Yeah. But I wanted to not be the little kid sister shadow of Anne either. Yeah. So I kind of opened some new doors for myself. And then I went up to Vancouver. What did you open? I went to creative writing stuff. I didn't even choose a major.

I took German. Really? Because the Beatles sang in German. On that one song? A couple songs. There's a whole album of them singing in that one yeah they couple songs right there's a whole album of them singing in german i think there's a few songs yeah for sure yeah yeah because for the german release they did it of like the first or second record i think yeah yeah like i want to hold your hand there's definitely a german yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

oh yeah yeah that's true right that's what did it. Yeah, that's why I took it. It's not the Beatles that make you want to play guitar that made you want to take a German class. Or both. Yeah. But anyway, so the band really got going in Vancouver. We became the number one cabaret act in Vancouver. Vancouver's a great town. It's a really great town uh and also like like i'm not knocking canadian music

but i could see like there if you rock in canada you're going to be celebrated do you know you know i know i mean we had big crowds that came to big clubs there because like what was the other band like rush rush for sure yeah they're big but then there was like ann Murray, you know? Bachman Turner Overdrive. BTO. Right? They're Canadian, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so we were a big fish in a little pond kind of thing. But how long had you been playing guitar when you started? I started when I was about nine. Oh, so you play your whole life. Yeah. And Anne never played? No, she plays. She does, right?

She's a pretty good guitar player she plays bass and flute right okay you know so i couldn't remember if they you guys did it on stage if she plays she plays occasionally on stage yeah when her fingernails don't get too long so you guys grew up playing together yeah we had little bands. We recruited girls from the choir. We had little folk bands. Really? We played at people's parties, many, many living rooms. Were your folks musical?

Totally, totally musical family. Really? What did they do? My mom played piano. Our dad was a singer. They're both in choirs. Oh, yeah? He was in a barbershop quartet. Oh, really?

Acapella crew? Yeah. Uh-huh. And then they had music all the time on the stereo and on the reel-to-reel, like Barbra Streisand. They had Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin, Patti Page. Just music in the house. Just music, classical music. How many kids?

Opera music. Three of you? Three girls. And I'm the littlest. And there's a middle one? Anne's the middle, and Lynn, our oldest, is the oldest. And so we'd go around singing three-part harmonies all the time. And our family, aunts and uncles and grandparents and cousins, we'd go to the beach house in the summer.

Yeah. You know, do the campfire songs. Oh, wow. And so what- Ukuleles and stuff. And what part of Seattle did you grow up in? Bellevue. Really?

That's beautiful, yeah. Yeah, it's become a city now, but- It was big. It was kind of industrial, right? Yeah. Or kind of a sub- Kind of not like a suburb, but- A suburb. There's water there, right? Yeah. Or kind of a sub, kind of like a suburb. A suburb. There's water there, right?

Yeah, there's a lake or two around there. There's a lot of water, and it comes out of the sky all the time. Yeah, I know. I've been with two lovers of my life were Seattle women. Oh, no way. Yeah. Did you ever live up there? No, but I've been up there a lot.

I used to go up there a lot. I definitely know Seattle, and I've done a lot of shows up there. I've always loved it. I always picture myself living in that part of the world at some point because it's really kind of an enchanting place. It is enchanting. That's a good word for that place. You know, because of that intensity of it. Just the weight of those mountains and those trees and that sky.

of those mountains and those trees and that sky. And when you go even more north into Vancouver, it gets bigger, like the gauge of the mountains and the gauge of the water. I love Vancouver. And the sky gets bigger, too, you know. I was ready to run. I wasn't sure if I was going to figure out how to get out of here.

With the last four years, I was like, I got to get out of here. Yeah? I always thought about Vancouver. Yeah. But then all of a sudden, they closed. They're like, no Americans. And I'm like, oh, no, we're fucked. There's no getting out. Yeah. I always thought about Vancouver. Yeah. But then all of a sudden they closed. They're like, no Americans.

And I'm like, I know we're fucked. There's no getting out. Oh, I know. I know. We were like, do we maybe,

could we maybe think about moving to Vancouver? Yeah. They kind of made it harder. They did. Sure. I tried to go to school in Vancouver and they changed it then because of the Vietnam war was happening. People were defecting.

Right. Right. To Canada. Now it's because there the Vietnam War was happening. People were defecting up to Canada. Now it's because there's too much foreign investment. So they tax. I think they put a 15% tax on anybody buying anything property-wise. Right. It's way more expensive if you're going to try to buy there. Exactly. Yep.

I don't know what the border is like now with the COVID. I'm not sure. I guess things will start opening up. I think they have to now. Sure. I mean, as long as they're getting their vaccinations on time or in some timely fashion. Sure. So what'd your dad do there in Bellevue? Well, he retired from the Marine Corps. Oh, Marine dad. Marine dad. So my mom was- With three daughters. Wow. Poor guy. Nobody to watch football with. Three daughters. Wow.

Poor guy. Nobody to watch football with. But yeah, he kind of decided after his lifelong career in the military, plus his dad and his brother, too, he retired as a major. And then he decided he wanted to take a total left turn and become an English teacher. Oh, interesting. So he went back to school. He became a teacher. Yeah. And he wrote short stories, and he wrote cool stuff, and read out loud for the blind, and did all these really cool things with his peacetime.

Yeah. And a funny guy. I mean, you know, super funny. Was he in combat? Yeah, he was in some big combat. He was in Guam. He was in South Pacific. He was in some big action.

Big WW2 action. Yeah, yeah. Feet on the ground, running up the beach. Yeah, boots on the ground. Boots on the ground, yeah. Running up those beaches. Wow. And, you know, not being able to talk about it ever again kind of stuff.

Really? He's like one of those guys? Yeah. PSTD, for sure. Really? You know, sometimes he'd wake up in a sweat and grabbing the poster on the bed and just like, ah. Oh, really? Yeah. Wow.

He saw some really nasty, horrible stuff, I'm sure. I'm sure that played into his desire to give back yeah i think so he was he was going to be a higher more higher educated kind of person you know which there's nothing ever wrong with that no and your folks are always supportive of the rock and roll they kind of really were um they were really cool parents they they they they kind of got hip to the human potential movement of the late 60s. Oh, yeah? And became more like youth groups, sort of small groups and big groups talking about relevant stuff with younger kids and counselors. And so our house was kind of like all of our friends could come and with the

permission of their parents they could party there yeah or have wine yeah have a cigarette or nice something else groovy yeah the groovy house groovy house groovy folks they adopted a lot of my friends like kelly who i mentioned earlier yeah who did pearl jam forever but yeah so they were they got very groovy in the human potential era and um when it when i had gone to college a little bit and then came back and said i'm gonna join the band you know how old were you i was 19 18 19 crazy so you're 19 and you go up to Vancouver and you guys, within a year, you do Dreamboat Annie? Pretty much. Wow.

That's pretty much what happened. Maybe it took about a year to do the clubs and to make the album and then release it. To me, that album and certainly those first four albums or the three albums that were done in the 70s, they define the time. And there was stuff going on earlier obviously and i don't know exactly on the timeline who your contemporaries were but for me that was like that was rock music at the time of that of 1976 or whenever that came out that was that was huge rock music yeah well who were you guys listening to i mean who were your you know what was driving Well, who were you guys listening to? I mean, what was driving you? Were you guys playing covers?

Where was your head at? Well, we were playing covers and trying to learn how to write songs, but we were listening to a lot of Pink Floyd, a lot of Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Beatles, Stones, all the singer-songwriters from Laurel Canyon, Joni Mitchell. So all of those elements were just part of who we wanted to become. But that folk mix with the rock, that's Rose Zappolini, right? Yeah, it is.

I got to see them a couple times. Up there in Seattle or in Vancouver? In Seattle. When you were young? Yeah. In high school? Yeah. Well, no, I think it was right you were young? Yeah. In high school? Yeah. Well, no, I think it was right after, around that time.

Oh, really? How great was that? Them live was insane. Yeah. And then they would come out front and line up their stools and just sit on the stools and do Going to California acoustic. Right. Then they'd go back and they'd just rock, you know, like only Zeppelin could.

That must have been awesome. It was pretty amazing. So you saw them like in the early, mid-70s. Yeah, when their first couple albums were out. Oh, my God. Live. So that must have been such a mind blower. They would do like a no quarter with the green lasers all spread out right above everyone's heads yeah yeah and

all the smoke in the room you know yeah it was swirling in the laser lights yeah and it was so trippy and cool who did most of the songwriting on that first record was that you and your sister yeah me and ann who came up with that those riffs was that you or was that fisher well roger fisher came up with some of the great riffs, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Fisher? Yeah, but it was my chord progression, but he got the – Right, right.

He sewed it together with a great riff. Sure, sure. Yeah, he had a lot of great stuff like that that he contributed to the songs. You know, they wouldn't call it songwriting these days. Right. That's more arranging. But it's cool. It really worked.

Yeah. Stuff like Barracuda really worked. Was that you? No. Roger kind of came up with that by ripping off another song that Nazareth covered a joni mitchell song called this flight tonight oh really yeah and they were pissed were they did he did he rip off the the harmonics from yes no i think that was kind of a his thing it was really cool it was great yeah yeah yeah and the tone of that, you know, that.

Well, both of you, like, it really worked. It was sort of like a stone sing, but that sort of the two vastly different tones of the rhythm and the crunchy lead. Yeah, yeah. It's like, I love that shit. Everybody's well represented. There's a lot of tubes in that shit. Yeah. You can hear the tubes. You can hear the dirt in it.

Sure. lot of tubes in that shit yeah you can hear the tubes you can hear the dirt in it sure which is one of the things i love about distortion and big rock guitar playing you know and how how are you with the like with the equipment i mean do you get are you nerdy or do you kind of commit to a i don't really like tech talk much yeah i don't quite kind of go... What I love is... You're not a gear head? Not a gear person, but I have a Fender Deluxe amplifier and the 1963 Lake Placid Blue Telecaster. Oh, that's

great. That I've had ever since I was I don't know, 80, 1980? Uh-huh. Or something like that. Forever. Yeah. And some of those older guitars, they're just, you can't get there any other way. Yeah. So what are your go-to guitars?

What's the acoustic you always go to? Well, I designed a guitar with Martin guitars. Really? That was the Nancy Wilson signature. Nice. And based on the Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young-styled red-knot guitars. A three-piece back. Oh, nice. really cool tuners

is that still around they still make them no there was a limited run so now they're really hard to get fortune but i had i think i have about four of the nancy wilson martin signature yes and then i gave like ann one and i gave my friend sue one and i gave another friend so if i ever run out you, I'll just take theirs. They're not using them, right? Or are they using them? They love them. Yeah.

But they don't use them like I would use them. Yeah. If you're in need, they'll give you back. If I'm ever in dire need, I know where to go. So when you started on that first record in Canada, so did it just blow up? Did you guys get thrown into where you did you all of a sudden were you opening for major rock acts? How did that happen? Well, not exactly, because we were still like, you know, there's a Canadian content law in Canada that if something's created in Canada, that there's a certain percentage of airtime that it gets.

Because it's Canadian, technically. Even though we're not, we lived there, we had a residence there, and we recorded there. So we got some airplay. Yeah. But we were also still playing in clubs. This one club in particular was called Lucifer's, which was kind of a real sketchy dinner club, kind of a disco meets rock meets dinner kind of a club. Yeah, sure. That kind of place. And we hated the food.

And one night, you know, Ann says, hey says hey you're enjoying your lysol flavored dinner tonight and you know we were immediately let go we were fired you're out of here on your ear and the same pretty much the same minute we got an offer to open for rod stewart in montreal the other side of the country yeah so we got. So we get on the sleeper train and we hightail over. A train? A train across the country. How long did that take? A couple days.

Yeah. And then we got there to Montreal and got on the stage to open for Rod Stewart. And people had heard Magic Man already in Montreal unbeknownst to us on the radio on the radio and they all started lighting up their lighters and we were like what's going on and it was like one of those really super magical things that you just it's like pennies from heaven you know you're just like oh my god did God. Did you guys nail it that night? Well, we did because we were so, you know, we're just wonderstruck by the whole situation. First time on a huge stage, really a big stage.

There was room on the stage to move for a change. So you got to figure out how to move. You could actually walk around, you know. for a change so you got to figure out how to actually walk around you know yeah and and then these people were so there with us and we're like oh my this is so great this is like this could be the future you know yeah and it kind of became the future that's astounding and in the sense that like you know you're kind of thrown into that i mean i guess you weren't green but you certainly didn't know yeah we didn't know how to work a big stage. Was Rod Stewart nice? He was great. He was really great.

Because he was huge then, right? He was massively huge then. He's always huge, I think. He's always been huge. Forever. And what a voice. I love him. But really sweet to us. I was like, hey, you you guys you're pretty good you know yeah you're doing you're doing fine already you know for a bunch of green greenlings that's nice sprouts yeah yeah but yeah and then what happens in that small label did you have trouble with them eventually yeah we were opening for more people like zZ Top, which they would call ZZ Top. Really?

ZZ Top in Canada, because Z is a Z in their alphabet. Okay. And Billy Gibbons said, hey, you're not so bad for a little girl. You know, you're going to play pretty good for a girl. So you're opening up for ZZ Top. April Wine was another Canadian act that we opened for what was their big hit

Nick Gilder Nick Gilder April Wine what was that what was that she's a roller yeah high roller

how do you remember that was that them yeah I think it was pretty sure they had a huge guy like paper mache man

with a top hat. Oh, yeah, right, yeah. Like some kind of leprechaun. Nick Gilder. Nick Gilder was sort of. Nick Gilder. Hot child in the city. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Running wild and looking pretty. Yeah, but like ZZ Top, they were a band, man. Right? Oh, they were always so, they were fantastic. Yeah. I mean, they're just such heavy dudes. They're heavy dudes. But nice guys,

you know, really nice guys, you know, real grounded in some weird way. But hysterical. Yes. At the same time. That was,

so you're opening for them in the late seventies. So that's, but that's before the beards. So that's when they were really kind of, you know, that was like Tush and, you know, LaGrange and,

LaGrange. Yeah. And, you know, that was like Tush and, you know, LaGrange and, LaGrange. Yeah, and, you know, Yeah, that's right. Like, Arrested for Driving While Blind

and like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. The shuffle stuff that they did. That must have been a blast. What a sound they had. So,

when you guys are working with these guys, I mean, do they treat you well? I mean, because you guys are like, royalty., I mean, do they treat you well? I mean, because you guys are like royalty. I mean, you were like the pioneers of modern rock music, of women doing it. I don't know that anyone's done it quite like you guys.

No, we were just like military brats who probably were young enough when we started that we didn't really have any kind of sexual identity attached to it. We were just these tomboys wanting to be like, be the Beatles, not date the Beatles, but be the Beatles. And do more harmony stuff and do more stuff like Zeppelin with acoustics and electric. Kind of crafting a sound for ourselves that was more kind of poetry and rock but it's interesting so you never thought of yourself as this is girl music this is women music we're just going to do music we're going to do rock music we're just going to do rock music yeah it was not you didn't feel like you had to put on a sexual act or anything right yeah yeah until the 80s i guess but Those big hair pictures, man. The big hair pictures.

Woo! But, you know, when Anne, before I was in the club band that Anne was in first, she was relegated to be the chick singer and do all the ballads at first. Right, okay. But then she said, I want to try some Zeppelin stuff. So she tried, you know, ah! Yeah, yeah, okay. But then she said, I want to try some Zeppelin stuff. So she tried, you know, ah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do, do, do, do. Yeah.

Do, do, do, do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she, everybody kind of went, oh, shit. You know, like, she can do that. She's in the same range as Robert Plant, so she can do the Robert Plant thing. Oh, wow, yeah. Because he's singing way up there. Yeah.

And she was no slouch in that area and still is not so so then her whole you know her whole world just opened up as a singer there that way yeah so she could really rock and yeah um you know not necessarily just only do ballads anymore. So when we all went up to Vancouver and started to be bigger in Vancouver, we were doing a lot of Zeppelin and we were doing a lot of Deep Purple and we was trying to write. What Deep Purple covers? Oh, we did My Woman from Tokyo

and Highway Star, which is a really good one. I'm a highway star. Nobody's gonna take my car. I'm gonna raise it to the ground. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is a really good one. I'm a highway star. Nobody's going to take my car. I'm going to raise it to the ground. Yeah. That's the rock and roll accent. Yeah, yeah.

It's like when I saw Bruce Springsteen. And I kind of grew up with Bruce Springsteen on the radio. And he was like, And that's the rock and roll accent. You couldn't even tell exactly what he was saying. And then I saw him on Springsteen on Broadway. Oh, wasn't that great? Before the shutdown, of course.

It was so good. And all those songs were so. Everything's so casual and very earnest. Earnest. Very good Catholic boy stuff. Because he's one of these guys where his public personality seems very genuine. And I'm not saying it isn't. But behind that, there's a bit of a dark mad man.

I believe you're absolutely right about that. I mean, I know that he's suffered from some depressive stuff. Yeah, yeah. And that goes to show how deep the songs really can get and how beautiful and human humane human human yeah his songs his lyrics are you covered one i mean that's why i did the rising you chose that one right what what what was the problem why that one well because once we started you know coming into the the the the pandemic era that we've just hopefully getting out of soon. He wrote that one for 9-11 initially.

I remember when we were in New York, it was like, well, Bruce is going to save us with his song. Any day now, Bruce is going to deliver us. Oh, I know. It was quite a song, man. It's a great song. Yeah, yeah. And now just having figured out the words and the meaning and the meaningfulness of it today with so much loss around us and people, you know, a 9-11 every day.

Good choice then. That was a smart choice. I thought it really changed the message of it in lots of ways to be a lot more affirmative, aspirational, nurturing, motherly, if you will. Nice, yeah. So that's an interesting little thing about it that I wasn't expecting to get from it. Yeah, so you felt that. I felt that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because singing about Mary in the Garden, the Garden of a thousand sighs, that kind of thing.

It's like the mother, you know. Yeah. The mother of God, I guess. Sure. Whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Yeah. If you're doing the Jesus route.

If you're going that way. Yeah, yeah. If you're hitchhiking on that truck. Do you know Bruce? I've met him a few times. Oh, did he know you were covering it? Did you talk to him? Or can you just do that?

My people talked to his people who told our people that he really did like it a lot. Oh, that's nice. So I did the Snoopy dance about that because I was just like, oh. He knew I was there when I saw him at the theater for the Springsteen on Broadway thing. Because they knew my name and where the seat was. Sure. The house seats. And we were right there.

He saw me kind of tearing up and pretending I wasn't crying and stuff during the meaningful parts. That's good. But, you know, why not? During the meaningful parts. That's good. But, you know, why not? So when you're out there on the road from the get-go, I mean, did you, like, it seems like your experiences, at least a few that you talked to me about, were relatively supportive from the dudes in general. They were pretty cool dudes. I mean, I think kind of enlightened in the way that we'd all been through the late 60s into the mid-70s together.

And I guess you had the goods, too. Like, if you're showing up with the goods, they can't really be like, you know, hey, baby. It's like, fuck you, man. Yeah, I know. Did you see what we just did out there? Don't call me baby. Yeah. But, yeah, they were not as excited about me being another chick in the band when I finally did join.

Because it was like, oh, now we're going to just have a bunch of wimpy ballads again. But no, I came to play. Yeah. And when they figured out that I could play, and I was already pretty proficient, and I could do stuff like some of the Steve Howe introduction. Right, yeah, yeah. Some of the Yes songs. Yeah.

Had on them. You guys did some Yes covers? We did Siberian Catru. Uh-huh. We did Take a Straight and Stronger Course, Your Move. Uh-huh. Which we just, actually, Hart just did that again last tour. Really? It's really a fun song to do. So you just did that again last tour. Really?

It's really a fun song to do. So you just pull some of them out, huh? Yeah, sometimes, you know, it's just like mix it up. Make it fresh. You know, you don't want to do too many covers if people are coming to see you. Right. If you do too much Zeppelin or too much other cover songs. Because then you don't have time to do the ones that they came for which is a good

problem to have but yeah we kind of always try to throw in a a stray cover just to keep things really lively like no way they're doing that one yeah yeah well it's interesting i did the boxer too oh yeah well that's a great song right what a What a song. I mean, I wasn't talking to him, but I heard Paul McCartney talk about that, about when he goes out, you know, and he does all those Beatles songs and there's just an arena full of iPhones waving up. And then as soon as he's like, we're going to do a new one, you just see all the phones go down. Wah, wah, wah.

Yeah, like, it must feel terrible. Like he, I mean, really the idea of that was was kind of daunting like that moment of sort of like it's not really rejection but it kind of is well there is a thing you know like you are the soundtrack to people's lives and when the familiarity kicks in sure it's a it's a it's like a life, you know, there's my soundtrack. That's part of my life. Yes. You know, that describes me to myself.

Yes. And then there's something new. It's like, oh, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, oh, you know. You guys want to go get a beer? Go get some t-shirts, you know. Please, go get the t-shirts. Get the t-shirts you know please go get the t-shirts get the t-shirts and a beer

but also with Paul's new album I was going to mention because it's a really good album which one? the new one

not Egypt Station the one after that no this new brand oh yeah which I oh it's called McCartney 3 oh is it?

because he did McCartney and then McCartney 2 yeah yeah it's his did McCartney and then McCartney 2 yeah yeah it's his third solo album and he plays everything on it and you like it I really like it

yeah have you met Paul yeah I got to meet him a couple times before one of his shows uh huh with his new band yeah

um and you know he's ever the Paul with the wink and the nod and really just as as wonderful as you want him to be quick funny and the nod and just as as wonderful

as you want him to be quick funny yeah sweet and just you know approachable and

la la la you know just but Anne was Anne had dibs on Paul and her birthday is like the day

after Paul's birthday and she played the bass and she had a little Hoffner bass and everything so I was I wanted to be the John person I wanted the John after Paul's birthday. Oh, okay. And she played the bass and she had a little Hofner bass and everything. Oh, she did? So I was,

I wanted to be the John person. I wanted the John. Yeah. You know, to occupy the John space. Yeah. Because Ann was, already had the Paul. Right, sure.

But you know, sometimes you kind of veer off towards George for a minute. Yeah, yeah. When you get a little broody. Yeah, you get a little broody. Yeah.

Or like, you hear stuff like, here comes the sun or something. He's one of those guys, too, where you can hear. He always sounds like George. Yeah, he's had his own particular accent. And always his own guitar playing, too. No, he's one of those players. Yeah. Especially once he got into the slide stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. It once he got into the slide stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It's trippy stuff. But so all the way through, you never felt any, you know, you always felt embraced by the rock world, pretty much? The rock people, the music people in the musical rock world. Did you ever feel condescended to for being women after the hits you had? I would imagine after that first album, no one was. I don't know.

I think there was always that kind of an attitude around about women who, you know, women who've, uppity women. You know, that they're acting uppity because they think they're cool somehow. And they're not, you know, kind of kowtowing to the almighty man. So there's always that, especially in the business area of the music industry. That's where it becomes an industry. That's where it's not even magical anymore. It's a business over there. But inside of the business of playing music and doing music

and being with musicians, it's a whole different world. I think there's a breed of person who's a musician. I mean, you're one of them. You know, you could sit on a bus with your fellow musicians and just have a blast for all day and all night. And if there's even any real serious vibes, that's pretty rare that you actually really butt heads or argue or disagree. Usually you just agree to disagree and you work it out yeah you guys like did you hold together as a band for the most part you know you did it seems like you did

through it i mean where like you it didn't seem like it seemed like a decision where like you're not going to tour you're going to tour but and it seems like there's been a lot of members of come and go yeah was Was there contentiousness? There was the issue of relationships within the band. That was the big mistake. Oh. That was your first mistake. Because Anne was in love with Mike, the guitar player's brother, who was running the sound. Yeah.

Kind of the manager. Right. The Svengali kind of situation and then i kind of broke down and said yes to the guitar player his brother so there's two sisters two brothers in relationships which got real real messy yeah and um i was the one to kind of break that break off from that yeah but then I kind of fancied the drummer. Uh-huh. So that was not a good idea either.

And so that's kind of where, like around 1980, around Baby Lestrange era, it started to just diverge. And it was just too, the political climate, the emotional climate was just a little heavy. Within the band. Yeah. Because everything was jealousy and weirdness. We should have taken a cue from Fleetwood Mac, you know, right? You just don't want to do that.

Well, you got to learn your lessons, I guess. I guess. So after that album is where the guitarist left and everything got different? Everything got different. We didn't add an extra guitar player. We just kind of kept on as we were. I played a little bit more lead stuff and filled in a little more.

Yeah. And I guess on the business side, I mean, the one thing you guys had going for you, outside of being great and being hard, but it was the, you guys made hits? We kept on making some hits. You know?

We didn't always write them. Uh-huh. Like when we got into the 80s in particular. Yeah. But there was, there was kind of a law that bands like

Aerosmith and Heart and, you know, these are the LA hit writing song, stable songwriters and we want you to do them or we won't promote the album. Oh, yeah? Like who?

Like Even It Up? Was that you guys? No, that was us. Yeah. Like which album are you talking, which hit, what songs are you talking about? Like in the self-titled Heart album. Oh, that was a big record. Yeah.

I remember, like, there were so many of these songs, like Even It Up. I remember that was, like, was that still the 70s or was that in the 80s i think that was like 80 that was a big song yeah it was a big song it started out as an acoustic instrumental that i thought i was gonna do and then it turned into that song yeah it's funny yeah oh so like on the self-titled of these dreams that was the That was a beautiful song. Big song. Written, Bernie Taupin wrote those lyrics, actually. Yeah.

And it was the last cassette in the briefcase when we were auditioning demo songs. Oh, no kidding. That we were listening to. That's how those guys did that? Because Bernie Taupin was already pretty huge. With Elton John. Right. Of course.

But he had some other songs out there. Yeah, he actually wrote these dreams for Stevie Nicks with her in mind. You can sort of tell when you think of that song. It's very ethereal and gossamer. I think he was really good friends with Alice Cooper. I think so, yeah. And I think he might have written something for Alice. Because I talked to Alice once.

Because it's interesting about Alice. There were some pretty beautiful ballads that Alice wrote. Oh, yeah. And I think he might have written something for Alice. Because I talked to Alice once. Because it's interesting about Alice. There were some pretty beautiful ballads that Alice wrote. Oh, yeah. He really did write beautiful ballads. I mean, you get this idea that he's like this massive weirdo rocker. Only women bleed. That's a big song, man. That's a great song.

So are these dreams. Yeah, that was huge. So these dreams, like this is not a heart song by any stretch of the imagination. What about love? But it's an interesting song. That's a big song. With Bernie Taupin's lyrics. Yeah.

And so I was like, wait, I love that song. I want to sing that song. So that's how it kind of came to me. Oh, yeah. Nobody wanted to hear heart do a song like that. Well, I guess they did because it was the number one. As it turned out. And that was you.

And that was my song. But even on the video, they kind of made it look like, which one of them was really singing it? Oh, yeah? I can't remember the video. Why'd they do that? I think they didn't want to confuse the fans. Which one is singing lead on this? Well, I'm sorry.

You should have been able to step right up. It hurt my feelings. It did, right? It did. It really did. Why wouldn't it? Yeah. It's your big time.

I didn't get, you know. The big moment. You sang the number one hit song. The first number one hit. But then Ann got alone pretty close on its heels, and then she felt better after that. Oh, did she? How was it like oh so that's it so and that person in that you know you had the one hit and that was like what are you

doing little sister oh wow yeah but uh yeah what about love was on there and yeah you know i remember that alone and that's when the big, the 80s production was part of it. Oh, my God. There were days in the studio where somebody would be hitting a snare and triggering it to another drum triggered snare sound. And auditioning the mix between the two sounds together. I mean, come on. And then that cover of that that record how much cocaine does it take to find a good snare sound a lot of people blame cocaine yeah for the the weird

sound the compressed yeah strange sounds of 80s production yeah and everything was going digital right at the same time yeah and the ego-driven drug of cocaine was also you know nobody was ever going to ever make a decision right all day long just talk about just talk about it so you guys never got fucked up though huh like no one not per se i mean we dabbled but we were never um in danger oh that's good we never got ourselves in danger because I think we were just too proud, too professional. We showed up on time. We never missed a show. And also, I imagine that some of that pressure is like, you guys are the women.

You have to prove it. You don't want to be all sloppy. No, you can't be a lot of miles. She's got a lot of miles on her. You don't want to look like that. it's not a good look yeah so when did when did were you married to Cameron um let's see in 1986 oh so like well into the 80s huh until yeah until 2008 whoa I think I like I don't think I'm over 20 years And you guys still friends? Yeah.

Oh, that's good. We got a couple of kids together. How old are they now? 21. That's wild. They're twin boys. They're 21. That's wild.

Yeah. And one of them's a really good guitar player. Oh, that's good. Which is fun. That must make you happy. I haven't seen either of them since Christmastime 2019. Where are they? Because of the shutdown.

One's in Montreal. Okay. He was going to Concordia there. Yeah. He's the guitar player. Yeah. They don't let him in and out yet so far. Okay.

But I get to see Billy on Friday. Is he here? He's in the Palisades here. Oh, with Cameron? With Cameron. Yeah. Occasionally Cameron emails me. Yeah.

Yeah, because you did the music for Almost Famous, right? Yep. And I don't think I met you. Did I meet you on set? I might have met you on set. I was the angry promoter. I had one day. Oh, you were?

Remember? Lock the gates! Oh, yes! That was you. Yeah, yeah. Want to buy a gate? Yeah, yeah. I had one day. Oh, you were? Remember? Lock the gates! Oh, yes! That was you. Yeah, yeah. Want to buy a gate? Yeah, yeah.

That's a great scene. It was me when I got the little fight with Noah Taylor. No, I was there on the set. Yeah, yeah. At night. Yeah. They broke the gate with the bus. Yeah, I feel like I met you, yeah. Okay, we met.

Yep. We have met before. Yeah, I guess I did see you one other time since Sunday Jam. Oh, my God. But Cameron was very nice. He's a really wonderful person, yeah. You know, we had a long run and a good relationship for a long time. Yeah.

There was just, you know, becoming parents can be the thing that wakes you into your adult adult adult time it's adult time now yeah and that's not an easy shift sure for a lot of artistic type people and so it happens divorces happen yeah of course and but it's nice that your friends and the kids know your friends and you you kind of uh had a good run and you respect each other you know yeah for sure and i've still you know do stuff for him for his projects and like he they just reissued a they put out a red vinyl or putting out a red vinyl um of interviews and extras and demos for the singles film oh yeah yeah and we did uh i did a bunch of demos for uh say i think was per se anything for the stillwater band that we kind of created yeah and all this kind of stuff i have a couple of those i guess rarities i have uh the still stillwater record covers that they must be used

on set oh yeah because yeah because he sent me the label. I don't know what label it is. Does he have a record label, Cameron? Yeah, it's called Vinyl Records. Yeah, they sent me a bunch of stuff, a lot of the Kozilek stuff. Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's Kozilek stuff great.

Yes. It's wonderful. You've got to be in the right mood. You can't be too sad. No, you can't. You can't be bummed out. You've got to go in, you know, up. Oh, that's really true.

So you can buffer it. Right. But he's a great singer-songwriter. I think so, yeah. And guitar player. Yeah, I definitely like that. The Red House Painters. Yep.

And I like that. Yeah, and I like that solo song, Sun Kill Moon. Sun Kill Moon, yep. And that Benji record, I think, was the last thing I heard, which was really something. I didn't hear that oh my god it's like yeah you really want to be fortified when you listen to Benji

yeah for sure so now Hart kept making records now was this a question I don't know that I ask many people but is when you make when you keep kind of slugging away, you know? Yeah.

Is there a point where you think like, you know, I don't think we got any more in us? Well, I think we reached our first lifespan after about five or six years, which is the average lifespan of a rock band who then has to reinvent if you're going to survive, if you're going to live to tell. And you're aware of this. You're aware of this because you see the style change and you see the fashion change and the sound of music is changing. And stylistically, you're not as cool anymore.

And you're kind of lazy as you're not as burning with the desire and the inspiration to create something different and new yeah because you're tired and you've been on the road for six years yeah and so all of, all the hell and high water that went under the bridge, you know. And so you have to kind of, that's when we did the self-titled Heart album. We kind of petered out there for a little while. And we kind of didn't get as relevantly creative as we could have been, I didn't think. And so then we kind of went, oh, we have to. You can cuss.

Oh, shit. Yeah. We have to survive through this and figure this out. So that's when we started doing other people's songs. And it worked. It was a bigger. That was the compromise. That was the compromise.

And a lot of bands were doing the same thing. Sure. So, you know, we weren't the only sellouts. Yeah. But we were still writing our own stuff, too. Huge sporting event-sized shows at that time and huge set pieces and fog and smoke and big tall risers. Yeah, you could run around on the stage on these risers and make a spectacle out of yourself. Was that exciting? It was hard. I think it was harder

to do it that way because MTV had that there was an expectation to kind of be like a big MTV video kind of thing and to look the part. But you're pulling good numbers on the road, right? Yeah, we've pulled in huge numbers and made

huge money more than before but it was a lot harder personally to live behind all that big, huge, the hugeness of it all. But, you know, there's always something to complain about. I mean, what am I bragging or complaining? Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, yeah, but I mean, it is sort of the journey of an artist

to recognize what made you and then to realize that, you know, you've grown out of something and you want to or have to adapt. It's better to want to than to have to. But I guess after a certain point. There's a point there. Yeah. You don't really know, you know, what are you going to do if you don't do this? So, you know, you got a lot of years ahead of you. So you kind of figure it out.

Yeah. You out. Yeah. You adapt. Yeah. And also like now, I mean, I guess there's a certain point where, you know, it's OK to sort of lean on the catalog and bring people joy and, you know, have fun with the fans because they've got most of them have got to be like my age. Yeah. You know. Oh, God. Yeah.

And there's kids that come with their parents. Sure, yeah. That were the original Heart fans, you know, and the younger people are kind of starting to discover Heart. Right, but it's like. From the 80s on, sort of. But still, like, I mean, I got to, like, up until a few years ago, I mean, I don't know what, I mean, you guys,

just on, still on ASCAP, I mean, there's about 10 heart songs that have got to be in constant rotation. Yeah, there's got to be. On classic hit stations, if they still exist, or on satellite radio and those classic hits. In the dentist's office, you know. Wherever. In the elevator. Like Magic Man, Barracuda, all of them. Yeah, the elevator.

Sure. Well, it's not Muzak. No, all of them. Yeah, the elevator. Sure. Well, it's not Muzak. No, I know, I know, I know. But that's most of my thing. I always said, well, when I hear myself in the elevator, I know I'm going to have made it. You know, I would have made it. It would have been over. If you hear yourself in the elevator, not only did you make it, but you're on the other side.

You're over it. It's all over for you. Especially if it's the Muzak version of these dreams, which I actually own. You do? I own a cassette. Of that? Of the Muzak version? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Well, you did a beautiful cover of that Cranberry song on the new record. Oh, thanks. Yeah. What a great choice. Thank you. I was riding around in the car with Jeff and just came on the radio. Dreams. Yeah. Dreams.

Yeah, dreams. And he says, you and Liv should do a duet on that song. I'm like, okay. Liv Warfield? Also, I shall be. It shall be. You've played with her a lot, right? Played with her a lot in my last other band, Roadcase Royale. Where did she come from? Her name is Liv Warfield. I'm not totally familiar. She came from the Camp of Prince and her guitar player

who's also now in Hart, Ryan Waters, who was from the Camp of Prince. Okay. He's in Seattle. She's in Chicago. Okay. Because her hubby works there.

So she's there. But I'm going to bring her to a show that we're gonna do in seattle with all my gut my bandies yeah uh with the seattle symphony oh really when's that that's gonna be july the 9th that seems like when everyone's gonna start going out again yeah july seems to be the month it does seem to be. Yeah. By then, we might just be in the clear. I think we get- The variants and everything. All the booking agents have been chomping at the bit. Oh, God, right. It's like, are we going with July?

Are you going with July? Let's go with July. We're going with July. Yeah. We don't care if we go all the way through the winter after that. Exactly. As long as it's not a Canadian tour. But yeah, she's going to come and sing with me for that.

And we've, in Road Case Royale with Liv and with Ryan, we did a bunch of heart songs, too. We opened for Bob Seger. Bob Seger, how's he doing? I heard he wasn't well. He got injured, and so we had to go off the road. We had to, like like quit the tour but um but his brain's okay now he's good okay he it was more of like a skeletal spine okay neck situation okay but old injury or something that flared back up like you guys are sort of like in

terms of his like big time you guys are sort of contemporaries, weren't you? Yeah. I mean, like Night Moves must be around the time of Dreamboat Annie, right? Somewhat, I guess. It feels like it. It feels like it was to me, too. And same with that first Aerosmith album. That was a little earlier, probably. Let's see.

Yeah, that's a good question. Like Dream On seems to be in that zone, too, but it feels like 76. 76. Night Moves. Night Moves. That's exactly right. Spot on.

Wild. Wow. Because I just think of what was on the radio. Because I was in high school. Yeah, see, Dream On's earlier. That's 73. Right. Right.

There were so many cool songs at that in that era and you know pink floyd all over the place with pink floyd oh for sure my god those records are like i still listen to uh i listen to animals i listen to wish you were here i actually love wish you were here oh yeah so much i listened to the other one the uh the, the big one with money on it. What is that one called? Dark Side of the Moon. Dark Side of the Moon. Oh, that one.

That one. The biggest record selling of all time. All time ever. That's what my mind. Have you seen the Gilmore at the Royal Albert Hall? I saw some of it, yeah. So good. Yeah.

And at the Pompeii. Yeah. Live at Pompeii. Yeah, And at the Pompeii. Yeah. Live at Pompeii. Yeah, I liked the way he plays guitar. I didn't realize how much of Peter Green he kind of took. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, I never really realized that kind of minor bluesy thing that Peter did.

Because I noticed that Gilmore was on that tribute to Peter. And I'm like, oh, of course. Yeah, that's right. I didn't see that. I want to see that. Because Gilmore is all fucking, it's just basic blues riffs. Yeah. But he has his own.

With weight to it, yeah. Stylistic sentence he always adds to it. Yes. When he goes, woo, woo. Yeah, yeah. He adds that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Almost every time.

Yeah. Here or there. Just enough so that you recognize, oh, that's David Gilmour. So there's something beautiful about the opportunity of the pandemic in a way that lets you kind of bring it all back home and get focused on your own stuff and do it in an intimate way to get out of the kind of massive heart machine. Yes. The big metal horse. And are you ready to go back? Are you going to do dates or what?

Is that happening in July? That's a solo thing in July. No, I know, I know, but like where's the- Maybe with some, well, it'll be streamed and it'll be hopefully more than one place. Yeah, you're not going to do a live venue? No, it's a live venue. Okay, but is there a heart plans in the future?

Well, there's an offer on the table for Heart for 2022, which could be really fun. How does that package? What do they say? When Heart goes out now, is it usually like it's going to be you and another? Yeah. The packaging thing is the way they always do now. With the bands of your time? Yeah, like Chrissy Hind probably would be

the one we go out with next time. That'd be great. We were planning on it before. She's got a good band, usually. Oh, she's really good. Really good. She is, man. She's intense.

I've always really loved her stuff. Great talking to you. Oh, really good to talk to you, too. And I love the record. And your music has been an important part of my life, and it was a real honor. Such an honor to talk to you, too. And I love the record. And your music has been an important part of my life, and it was a real honor. Such an honor to talk to you, too. And thank you for having me on here. I'm glad you came in person.

I'm sorry I talked a little too long, too much. Never, never. About too many things. It's great. This is what we do here. I have permission? Yes. Permission to rock.

Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Very good. Thank you. And now you have permission to go to the bathroom. rock. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Very good. Thank you. And now you have permission to go to the bathroom. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for sharing.

Yep. Nancy Wilson. Wasn't that amazing? I loved it. That was very, it was cool. You know, junior high me was very excited. And current me was also very impressed and excited. The new album is called You and Me.

It's out this Friday. You can get it wherever you get your music. Sorry, no music today. Oh, wait. Oh, wait, I forgot. Maybe I did. I think I threw my harmonica in the bag in case, because I didn't want to.

Didn't I? Hold on. Oh, no. to didn't I? Hold on. Oh no. Hold on. I found it. ¶¶ um Boomer lives. Monkey Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. Cat angels everywhere.

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