WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1224 - Mark Normand

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

Mark Normand is relieved to get back to the comedy clubs after a year of doing outdoor shows and other compromised sets during the pandemic. But Mark never considered stopping because comedy is something he has to do. Maybe it goes back to growing up feeling like an outsider in his own family of overachievers, or maybe it's how he coped with childhood anxieties like bedwetting, or maybe it has to do with being a victim of crime at several points in his life. He tries to get to the bottom of it with Marc while they also reminisce about the New York comedy scene and the fight-or-flight impulses they have as comedians. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going?

Mark Normand is here, comedian. He's one of the guys. I've interviewed some of his contemporaries. Like he's of the generation of joe list sam morel he used to open for schumer he's appeared in all the places comics appear and he has three one-hour specials and i was a little reluctant to uh to book him not because i had anything against him he's a very proficient very funny he's a good comic old school writing the jokes but it was one of those things where i talked to his friends i know his friends and i He's very proficient, very funny. He's a good comic. Old school, writing the jokes.

But it was one of those things where I talked to his friends. I know his friends, and I know he's sort of part of that triumvirate of Morel and List and him. He's a New York guy, came up in New York, reminds me of a lot of the guys I came up with. He reminds me of a guy who came up in New York. But I didn't know who he was. I'd watch his standup and I was wondering like, is this who he is? Is this the, the, how he talks? Is this where he's coming from? What's in there? I just wasn't sure, but a good joke writer, funny guy, watch a special. And I said, all right, it's time. It's time to have him on. And we had a nice talk.

And it was good. It was a comedy talk. It was like the old days, back in the day talk. So I made it back from Florida, and it was a bit harrowing but a bit relaxing. First trip out. I got to be honest with you, man. You know, since I was vaccinated, thank God, get vaccinated, get

peace of mind. But, uh, I, I took, uh, I took a plane. I was in cars. I was around people. I was eating inside restaurants and I was down in Florida and I was surprised, man. I mean, for the rap that Florida gets almost everybody indoors, for the most part that I could tell, was following the rules, still wearing their masks. I mean, it is a clusterfuck of humanity for both better and worse, but most people were following the rules. It's weird, man. I'm starting to just, I'll tell you the mask thing. What i've learned over this last year is that um if you just see people's eyes they usually 99 of the time look terrified or pissed off that's what eyes look like if the windows of the soul are the eyes looking in most of them

pissed off and terrified which is probably true but my point is in civilization in day-to-day life you need the other half of the face to balance out the terror and the anger so people can kind of move through the world you know without other people getting nervous the mass thing was all part of a necessity but it was a kind of ongoing trauma in a way. We were all living in this PTSD of pandemic and plague and necessity, but I've grown to believe that you got to see the whole face to get the balance. You know, most people are terrified or angry, but if you got a smile or smirk or just something to do, some dimples or just the rest of your face to balance out the terror in the eyes, it's a subtle mechanism, all ofples or just the rest of your face to balance out the terror in the eyes.

It's a subtle mechanism, all of that working together, all of that working in concert with each other. The eyes, the mouth, the nose, the expression, the full range of it. Just the windows of the soul looking in. A lot of fear, a lot of anger. Makes sense. Some sadness. Get the mouth going and the nose in there. And you're like, well, that guy's all right. He's all right. Just the eyes. Oh, fuck. Is he all right?

Are you okay? Rest of the face. Hey, he's going to be all right. That guy's all right. So yeah, man, something shifted. Something has shifted. God knows the last year has shifted everybody. We've all had our trials and tribs and horrors and obstacles. And just seeing my brother and his new girlfriend and seeing my nephew. For dinner, we all went out to dinner. That was funny. We're the same, man. Same mother, same fucking monsters.

Just the goddamn food issues. Holy shit. They never stop. And there's just this element, the Marin dynamic, I call it, where it's just whoever we're with that's going to be dragged into it. Poor John's emaciated. My mother just crumples people into eating disorders. I love her, though. I'm not trying to be negative. But the funny moment was like, we were at this fish place and we were with his girlfriend, Julia and her kid and my nephew, Shy, and my brother. And I afterwards was like,

I just saw him walk by with some Tres Leches cake. I wasn't sure it was Tres Leches cake, but I have a pretty good sense of what that looks like and what it is. And they had it. I don't know why they had it, coconut Tres Leches cake. But I was like, fuck it. I'm getting that. Then my brother's like, they make their own ice cream here. And he looks at his girlfriend.

He says, I've had that. We've had that, right? And she's like, yes, we've had it. And then he asks, what did i say when i got it what did i say and i think he was looking to find out whether or not he liked it or he thought it was good but i said probably what you said is why the fuck did i eat this why did we get this and she laughed and that made me realize marin dynamic in effect the slow drain of the eating disordered male on anyone who's around him ah why why why so we sat there and we ate the tres leches cake and the ice cream and we lost

her dog for a while that was nuts man i don't want to you know they haven't been together that long they haven't lived in this neighborhood that long. And we took that dog out for a walk when I got there, when she was still at work and that dog got away from us, man. And we were both wandering around this weird neighborhood, which is one of these kind of like, uh, invented, uh, small town kind of, uh, developments where there's about five or six different small townie looking homes and a choice of row house or apartments. And they have a little manufactured downtown area and everything's grassy and it's built around a golf course. And this fucking dog took off and I had just gotten there and I don't really know her that well. I know my brother. I don't know how well he knows this dog, but this, this dog was gone, man. And we're wandering around yelling for this dog. Riley, Riley.

I don't even know Riley, but I'm starting to think like, man, if they don't find this dog and we get back to the house and she comes home, I might have to cut out because I don't want to be around for whatever's going to happen to this relationship or this situation or this evening. I just, uh, I might have to leave that. Is that wrong of me? Good luck with the dog. Sorry.

I got to go. I just don't know how to handle that. I wouldn't have to leave. Is that wrong of me? Good luck with the dog. Sorry, I got to go. I just don't know how to handle that. I wouldn't have done that. So we're wandering around, yelling for this dog. And then I see his girlfriend walking towards me, you know, from about a block or two away. And I'm like, I don't know, man. The dog, it's out. I don't know what happened.

And she walks up to me and she goes, the dog's at the house. And I'm like, it is? Oh, thank God. Where's Craig? She's like, I don't know. Well, he's around. And she's like, the dog made it home, but I'm not sure he can. And I'm like, you're probably right.

I can text him. He could probably use the GPS. But he eventually found his way home. We just let him get there on his own. Dog made it, though. That was very impressive. Sav impressive save the evening i didn't know what if anyone if any of us could have handled the dog yeah he got me all nervous about you know alligators in the golf course pond and eating dogs and it was harrowing but ultimately i guess what i have to say is I got along better with my mother's boyfriend than I ever had. And I think I understood him on a deeper level.

You know, pain is a weird thing. Grief is a weird thing. And I was sort of like, why does this guy act like he does? And I realized like, well, we both, what do we share? How is this different than the last time that I saw this guy? And, you know, I, you know, I'm a changed man because of heartbreak and grief. And I realized that he is that as well. And maybe that's at the core of it. Maybe there was an understanding there that I didn't quite, uh, wasn't quite able to access before, but anyways, they're alive. We're all right. And I'm grateful. And fat. I don't like cheesecake.

I don't, but I ate it. And it was good. I ate some. And Tres Leches cake. Did I mention that? Why the fuck did I eat this? Seriously, why? Why the fuck did I eat this?

I will be on the Tonight Show tonight, Thursday thursday may 6th if all goes well i will be doing my first stand-up spots in over a year on friday and saturday in the original room at the comedy store and right now i will be talking to mark normand his recent comedy special out to lunch can be seen on youtube or at mark normand comedyedy.com. He also co-hosts the podcast Tuesday with Stories along with Joe List. All right, we finally did it. Here's me talking to Mark Norman. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis

producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for

this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. What's that social for? Are you going to post me up on the... I'll put you on stories and all that. Oh yeah? You do the whole thing? I do it now. People make fun of me. I'm 37. What do you mean? Why do they make fun of you? It's like what we do, isn't it? I know, but I thought you got into this to write jokes and be funny and, you know, cut

up on a late night show. And now all of a sudden I'm documenting my life and everything's content. And, you know, you see a guy dead in the street. You're like, hey, this is something. Selfie. Yeah, exactly. It's a nightmare, but it's part of it. It's like an IV drip.

You got to keep it coming. I guess that's true because I do it, but I don't know if I'm doing it to sell or to maintain the brand. I think I'm doing it because I'm compulsive and I need to be witnessed and not feel alone in the world. Yeah, but in 1999, you didn't need it? No, you didn't need anything, but was I happy? Was I feeling validated on a daily basis? Well, now you're successful though. That's different. I guess. Yeah. I mean, I started doing those Instagram lives just because I wasn't doing standup. So I needed to feel like I was engaging in something. Yeah. I'm over here by myself and it's sort of like, am I even funny? Is that still working? Do I still have that muscle? Of course. Well, not, but you have this giant exposure every week.

Right. That's why I'm saying it's like,'s not really about exposure it's about me not losing my sanity or disappearing into myself totally so well that's how we are we want people's approval and validation but we don't want to talk to you you know i want i think i want people's approval just to go like nah you're wrong yeah you don't know. Yeah, we all read the reviews. We still hate them, but we read them. I like a review where you're sort of like, if it's a little bad but smart, I'll take it. Yeah, that's constructive.

Don't you ever read reviews and be like, oh, that makes sense? I read every comment. You do? Yeah. Oh, I can't do that. It's a nightmare, but you get some good info out of it. Do you get pushback on?

Oh, yeah. Because I watched a special. Wow, thanks. Yeah. That means a lot. Yeah, it was good. But you write a line with things, and you do it on purpose,

and I just want... Because it's sort of like you're kind of doing the... A sort of stealth equal opportunity offender thing. Right, right, exactly, yeah. You're not making a meal out of it. Like, hey, I fucking piss off everybody. No, I don't want to be that guy. Right, but it's like the subtext is sort of like, oh, exactly. Like, you're not making a meal out of it. Like, hey, I fucking piss off everybody.

No, I don't want to be that guy. Right, but it's like, the subtext is sort of like, oh, he's getting everybody. Yeah, but I don't know. I went to public school. That's kind of how it was. Everybody got a hit. Yeah. And I feel like it was better.

This whole kid gloves, eggshells, it's kind of condescending, I feel like. I think there is definitely a limit to it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think that there are things that seem to hurt a lot of people that are unnecessary. Sure. But then there's always that part, especially if you're a comic, where you're sort of like, come on. Yeah.

And like, oh, I'm the only guy who's having dark, weird, fucked up thoughts? Come on. Well, that's the other thing. What was that? There was one joke in there. I can't remember. What was it about? Oh, like you don't always say what you're thinking.

Yeah, you can't. You What was it about? Oh, like you don't always say what you're thinking. Yeah, you can't. You get shot. Right. But everybody kind of has that inner dialogue going. But that's the whole, the idea about that, because I think about that too. It's sort of like, man, we got to have the freedom to say whatever we want. But the thing is, is that there is this basic premise that in order to maintain civilization, we have to behave a certain way.

Yes, completely. That's why whenever a celebrity gets drunk or gets honest, it's so engaging. It's so enticing. Right, right. Intriguing. Like, yeah, that guy's really a fucking animal. He's a monster. But I am too, but he let it out and I got to see it.

Yeah, and I can keep mine in because I saw what happened to that guy. Yeah, yeah. You know, life's kind of like a reality show. And when you get in trouble, it's like, all know, life's kind of like a reality show. And when you get in trouble, it's like, all right, they got eliminated. I'm still going. Yeah. Yeah.

I'd like to be out of the game entirely. Not the game of life. It'd be nice. Don't you? Do you ever feel that way where you're like, I don't want to be doing this. I don't want to be public. I know. I know. But then 12 minutes later, you're like, I miss everybody.

Yeah. I need you. Yeah, I thought of something. I've got to put it out there. It's like when you're dating someone, you're like, God, this sucks. I hate her. I've got to get out. She's smothering me.

And then you're single for seven minutes, and you're like, please, please come back. I need you. Please. I need somebody to resent. Yeah. Yeah. When did you, do you live out here now? No, no, no.

I just pop in. Oh, really? Yeah. So when did you fly live out here now? No no no I just pop in Oh really? Yeah So when did you fly out here? Yesterday I did Wise Guys And then flew here on Sunday Wise Guys in Salt Lake City?

Yeah good club It is a good club Now what What are they doing there? Is it distance still or no? Yeah it's capacity It's definitely smaller Which feels cool

Because you sell out So you feel cool What's that guy's name again? Keith Yeah I love that guy's name again? Keith. Yeah, I love that guy. Great guy. Keith Stubbs. Good guy.

Yeah, I'll go work out some shit out there. There you go. It's not like I don't do that market in a big way. I do the club. I can do small theaters in a lot of places, but the places I don't, I'll go work out the hour there, and I go work out there. I like that city. It's a weird-

It's one of the only functioning theocracies in the country. Yeah. But I kind of like it. I don't know. I do too. It mixes it up. It's different. And they go the other way. You know, they can't drink coffee or beer or have sex or be gay, but then they're like covered in tattoos. They're all ripped and they love porn. Yeah. They love sister porn. That's their number one search in Utah. Where'd you find that out? I Googled it. Really? Yeah. Yeah. They love sister porn. That's their number one search in Utah. Where'd you find that out? I Googled it. Really?

Yeah, yeah. And I did a sister porn joke and they're like, ah, how do you know? They love it? They love it. Weird. That's how everybody balances.

I guess that's balance. I don't know what that's balancing. You know? Yeah. No coffee, but I want to fuck my sister. You know how it goes. It's a balancing thing.

It's like Cosby. You know, pull your pants up, but I'll, you know how it goes it's a balancing thing it's like cosby you know pull your pants up but i'll you know put you to sleep yeah that guy but utah i find it to be very clean do you you've really found like there was a lot of mormons at your shows oh yeah oh yeah i would ask oh yeah and how what was the percentage like i never got i got the feeling i got the people that were like yeah we live here but we're not one of them there's a lot of that too but there's a lot of people like i don't go to comedy shows unless it's squeaky clean because I don't know what you're going to say. Right.

Yeah. Well, that's how Brian Regan and Jim Gaffigan make the bulk of their money every year. I know they're killing it. They do. Clean comedy. Well, no, but they rely on the Mormon market. You think? I know that Brian does.

I talked to him about it. Like he'll do a week there at a basketball arena and make his year's money. Wow. I mean, that's what drives that guy. Yeah. Is that Mormon thing. My friend opened for him and he said, they don't even care if you're funny. They just want you to not be offensive.

Right. That's it. The Mormons. Yeah. So you've been working the whole way through this thing? I took a little bit of time off when it was real scary. But what was the work that you could do? I mean, like, I just decided not to do outdoor shows.

I can't do it. They're the worst. Yeah, it was like I worked too long to have to do that. Even if it's all that's available, I can live without it. Sadly, I found that not having comedy was, like, great. Like, I was surprised. Really? Yeah, I was surprised that, like because i i'll go out and

do it every week because i have to that's the kind of work ethic you come up with in new york i think you came up with it the same way oh yeah that there's this idea that like you know i gotta get on stage at least once a night and work this thing yeah and that's the ethic i grew up in and i kind of like always stayed with it i did sets like three or four times a week in town. But then when it went away, I was sort of like, no one's doing it. Okay. Well, then it's okay. That's what made it easier. Everyone cutting back. They had to. Yeah. So it's like, you know, I don't have to worry about what that guy's doing. Great. I'm going to take a break. Yeah. And it was nice. It's kind of like when the power goes out for Hurricane Sandy, you're like, I'm lazy, but what can I do?

The power's out, you know? I'm not going to light a candle and write a thing. Yeah, yeah. Use a pen. Right. So, yeah, I jumped around, but I'm the opposite of you. I went the other way. I need it.

I got to get up. I got to go out. I got to do something. Even if it is horrible, but then I filmed it. That was my win. I was like, I'm going to go to the park and do a show and bomb and get stung by a mosquito and get bitten on the neck by, uh, you know, or get a bird shit on my head. Did you know that was all going to happen before you did it? Or did any of those things happen? Yeah, we got some stuff. Then you get the kid, he kicks a ball and hits you while

you're doing your big closer. Oh good. So that happened. Yeah. So it's all on tape. It's park Norman. I put it on YouTube. So I just went in on like, let's talk about how silly this is. Let's be in it. Yeah. So you feel like you need, like, I mean, I guess I do a lot of other shit. I do this thing, you know, twice a week and I was, you know, in a bad mental space. But, so you felt you needed it. Yeah, yeah.

I got. Are you one of those guys you don't know who you are? Yeah, completely. Before this, I was rudderless, booze bag, a mess. A booze bag. Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of hungover now. Are you? This is so early, man.

I didn't ask to do it. Whose idea was this? Mine? I don't know. I heard 10 o'clock, and I said, all right, whatever he wants. Oh, really? That's out of my purview, the booking. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I apologize. So you're hungover. Well, I'm okay. I'm okay. Were you drinking at home, or were you drinking in Utah? You know, I went out with a few friends last night.

Where'd you go? Well, I got some friends. You know, I'm in LA, so I want to see them. So we just hit up a couple of bars. The bars are open? Nothing too crazy, yeah. Outdoors or indoors? Indoor, half.

Half? Yeah, yeah. But is everyone vaccinated? Yeah, yeah. I think so. But I'm fine. I'm vaccinated. Yeah.

But yeah, I knew I was coming here, so I took it easy. And thanks for not pumping me for Richard Kind, by the way. That's a get. Did I? No, he was here last week. Oh, I just saw the tweet. Yeah, I know. Oh, it comes out.

Yeah. I get it. I record it. Smart. It's not live. This isn't out right now? You're not Howard Stern? No, we're not taking calls.

Hold on. We got a caller. Sleepy in Seattle. When you came, like, I feel like you're of this crew. Like, it's taken me a while to get around to you. I've known of you, and I've seen you once or twice before. You used to open for Amy, right? Yeah.

Mostly? Like, a lot? A lot, for years. Yeah, yeah. But you seem to be of the crew of crew of like joe and sam yeah right joe list sam morel is that how you pronounce those are my guys yeah would you just say to you sam and joe there's gotta be some well we're the we're the joke psycho weirdo get up a lot comedy nerds we know everything about comedy we read the books we talk about comedy we really yeah well that's

what i've noticed because i noticed that like like Sam, like he opened for me years ago. So I kind of know where he's coming from. It was in Rooster Teeth Feathers. Wow. In Sunnyvale. Sunnyvale, yeah. And Joe, I didn't really know that well. But like, you know, I knew he was around.

And I knew he'd come from Boston. And I come from, I started't really know that well, but I knew he was around, and I knew he'd come from Boston. And I started in Boston, really. So when I watched him, I'm like, oh, these guys, they need to be reckoned with, these fellas. These joke fellas. We just care about it. We want to do well. We respect the art form and all that crap. No, I get it.

There's a lot of us that do, but there are certain there are certain dudes that, like, there are joke machines. Yeah. There are guys who approach it differently. Yes. But you guys are all really kind of like jokesmiths. We joke, guys, but we still have fun. Like, me and Sam like to throw a few back every now and then. We still get kooky and cut up and say horrible things.

Well, yeah, of course. I mean, that's part of the life. I hope so. But it is sort of like it's a timeless mode, the joke-telling mode. Like I'm a long-form guy, but there's always jokes in it all the way through. I'll write jokes. But there are guys that come from like the Attell School. Yep, yep.

Who are like sitting there like doing jokes like math problems. Yeah. There's like a compulsive nature to sort of putting these jokes together. You don't feel worthy of life if you're not writing a new joke. Is that you? No, no, that's a tell. But I try to watch him

and not be that all the way because I don't want to be smoking. You don't want to be a tell? Yeah, I want to be the sober guy smoking dressed like a janitor at 71. And I love the guy, but I'm just saying, he's like a hero. He can write some fucking jokes and I love the guy, but I'm just saying, he's like a hero.

He can write some fucking jokes though, right? He's brilliant. When he dies, everybody's finally going to blow him as much as he deserves. Oh, you think so? Yeah, because he's just right there now like a bridge troll, so he's not getting the love. But also he's talking about, you know,

coming on my ass or whatever it is, so I think people don't realize how genius he is. Oh my God, he can, like, we used watch him, like, when we were all starting out, and he'd be at the cellar, and we'd be there every night, and he'd have a great joke, and then he'd just watch as the week goes on. He just keeps playing with it until it turns into garbage. He'll keep tooling the joke until it just turns into not funny. But where did you grow up, though?

New Orleans, Louisiana, born and raised. How can you not talk funny? I was conscious of it as a kid, and I knew I didn't want to go the southern drawl route. It doesn't work for me. You knew that then? Yeah, yeah. I hate that yaddy, kind of Cajun-y accent. But your parents were from there as well?

Yeah, yeah. But it is kind of a city city, so it's still a hub. If you go 10 minutes outside, you're fishing and shooting gators and stuff. Right. But yeah, no. So, but generations your family's been there? Yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you don't talk like it at all? No.

Does your brother, you have brothers or sisters? Yeah, I don't know. We grew up pretty middle class. It was fine. Grew up in a black neighborhood right outside of the French Quarter called Treme. So there was not a lot of Southern... Treme, where they made the show there. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah, that show stunk. But I like those guys. Yeah, sure, David Simon. Simon, yeah. Yeah, he's a smart guy. The Wire. What did your father do? What kind of work? They were both... My dad was a lawyer and my mom taught law at the college.

Really? Yeah. Like at Tulane or where? UNO, University of New Orleans. But they were book types. Uh-huh. My brother's this genius kid. He is?

Is he younger or older? He's two years older than me. I'm talking perfect son. Peace Corps in Africa, helped the people in Guinea. Really? And then now he works for this big computer thing. Uh-huh. I don't know anything, but it's very impressive.

He's your older brother. Yeah. Smart guy, went straight to college, skipped his senior year of high school, went to the best high school in New Orleans, the whole thing, and I'm telling dick jokes in Utah. So did you get along with him? Yeah, we're cool. Our family is a little stoic.

It's very, my parents were military, you know, so it was kind of, yeah, you do your thing, I do my thing, and we'll see you at breakfast and then kill yourself. They were both military? Yeah, they both went in the army together, my parents. Really? Yeah, because they wanted to travel the world. They were broke. Uh-huh.

So they did that. They were jags. Oh, and they did it wanted to travel the world they were broke uh-huh so they did that they were jags oh and they did it they traveled the world travel the world pretty cool but so your bro your brother now did you feel like you're like in the shadow of that guy or as a kid yeah i mean i was the idiot i just like jokes and comedy and they were so smart and i wanted to watch tv yeah oh yeah they all just had their head in a book my brother knows dos he knew dos in like 88 yeah so uh it was tough you know i like groucho and and you know and living color and all this other shit and it was weird yeah did you have friends that were yeah my friends were idiots we used to skateboard and we cut up and chain wallets and all that shit running around the city That was the cool thing about the parents, is they let you go.

They didn't give a shit, but they also let you do anything. So it was kind of bittersweet. So they didn't, what, they gave up on you? They just said, you do your thing, don't bother us. Really? Yeah, which I liked. But your brother, so there was no pressure in the house? Your brother was just naturally driven?

Yeah, yeah, he was his own machine. He just pushed himself. Sense of humor? Yeah, you know, he likes comedy, but he's not zinging. Right, but I mean, but isn't it weird? Like, it's so hard when you have, when you choose to do this life until you make some sort of success of yourself, the attitude that family members give you.

It's like, well, how's that? Oh, nightmare. Why aren't you on SNL? Yeah, yeah. Do you know, my father once said to me you should call bill maher he seems to figured it out yeah exactly why wouldn't everybody just do that dad just call him hey bill my dad told me to call uh getting conan was a was a game changer they were like oh okay we've heard of that yeah we've heard of it yeah no they never watched it

no it was so weird dude there were so many shows i was doing that they couldn't figure out how to fucking watch so even even when i was doing shows yeah they were like i wait i don't where how do you see that yes my mother's gotten a little more proficient so she like is able to see that i'm actually not lying in the shows i'm doing exist right i've met obama yeah but do you do you want her to hear this i kind of like that my mom is not like downloading itunes and getting a podcast app there's some shit i don't want her here too well that's a good question because i take some shots at my mom and uh and she takes it pretty well usually but she's it turns out it seems to to me to be her only way of seeing how i'm doing i don't i don't stay in touch enough,

so she'll listen to the podcast or watch me on Instagram. It's a little weird when I see her name scrolling up on Instagram commenting. Oh, weird. I know. Oh, no. Not much. Worlds are colliding. But one time I said something about her,

I just saw her fucking little face come up and it said, that's not true. Okay. She heckled you. She did. She joke checked you. That's what happens on Instagram. It is heckling. that's not true. Okay. She heckled you. She did. She joke checked you. That's what happens on Instagram. It is heckling.

It's a nightmare. It's all just, here's why you suck. Here's why you're shitty and I'm right. And you're like, can't we just get along? Right. So you didn't go to the good high school in New Orleans? I went to the public school growing up and then I was a bad kid. Like what is that?

How did that manifest? Staying out late, vandalizing. Did you get busted? school growing up and then i we i was a bad kid like what does that have that you know uh staying out late vandalizing did you get busted all the time busted fighting whatever it was busted by cops cops teachers you know whatever and then so my parents sent me to catholic school to kind of get my shit together and that work no that was way worse i mean these kids are way drugged out because they had some money so they had a little more privilege and you know fast cars and uh big houses and parents who were checked out yeah we really ran amok oh yeah it was great catholics were fun y'all man were they wild and you're not catholic no i ate big atheist yeah um and uh, it was great. It was fun. The whole family's atheist?

Yeah. They're intellectuals, so they don't see that. It's not a religion thing. Just wasn't there. Yeah. Never an issue. Never an issue. Never came up. I would go to church with my friends after a sleepover because they'd just bring you

when you're eight or nine. Was that weird? Super weird. I hated every minute of it. I couldn't believe how culty it was. Like Catholics? Catholic. Well, that's heavy because it's sometimes a different language.

Yes, the tongues. Forever and ever. Crazy. The communion, the kneeling. Brutal. And then you go to college or you didn't? How do you get to New York? I failed out of three colleges.

I was a mess. What the fuck, dude? What were you, just drinking? Drinking. I lived in a house with five guys and I don't know. Like that's all you need to say. You know. Yeah. The five guy house. drinking i lived in a house with five guys and i don't know that's all you need to say you know yeah five guy house it was poker and beer pong and you know pool and we had a hot tub and it was

it was wild we had some great times also so glad i was alive before cell phones yeah but uh yeah i just didn't give a shit i didn't care about math or biology and uh what colleges did you go to i went to uno failed out then i went to baton rouge community college you filled out a community college well i just kind of stopped and then i got into this place called southeastern i'm really this is like a c club here you know and uh i found comedy moved to new york before i finished and my parents said you just got to finish so i finished online which is a huge joke. Yeah, well, that's how kids have been going to school all year this year. It's nothing.

I just had the book open and I'm answering all the questions. Oh, my God. It's a joke. So where did you start doing comedy? In New Orleans? New Orleans, which is not much. Low ceiling. There's a guy there.

Wasn't there a guy named like Wild Bill? Yeah, Wild Bill Dykes. Yeah, Wild Bill Dykes. He was like the guy. He was the staple. And we were young and impressionable, so he would kind of alpha us. Come in here. Let me take you under my wing.

Let me show you what's what. And we all just went with it. And this is before you could Google anything. This was just like you had to figure it out, phone book, comedy clubs. Yeah, but where was the place there? A place called Lucy's Surfer Bar. So it wasn't a comedy club. No, it was just the upstairs of a bar, but it was a great room, and it was

once a week, every Tuesday, and every comic in the city came, and I just fell in love with it immediately. Who were the guys? I mean, any of them we know? No, you know, two of them died, heroin, and two of them moved to New York with me. They've quit. One moved to LA. One's a writer. Sean Patton's still going. He's a killer. He was one of your guys? Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I looked up to him. One's a writer. Sean Patton's still going. He's a killer. He was one of your guys? Oh, yeah. Well, I looked up to him. He was huge.

Sean was. That's right. Funniest guy. Folks were in the restaurant business, the catering business. Yes, exactly. Hmm. Yeah. He is a funny guy.

Hilarious. He's a New Orleans guy. Yeah. He grew up outside of New Orleans in Slidell, which is like our Staten Island. You know, it's kind of trashy. So that was how it went, huh? Yeah. And Sean's the only one that surfaced.

But I knew, I was like, this is it. You know, you're so rudderless. There's zero going on in your life. You got no prospects. So I just had a kernel of something with comedy and I just went full force. What gave you the idea that you could do it as a life? I mean, who was it it exactly it was just a shot in the door let's try this what else am i got i got nothing else who are you guys when you were

watching like that made because like a lot of people are sort of like i had no idea you could make a living at it but you're of a different generation it was clear that some people could like in your mind you're like i could succeed at this i guess but i figured if i could just do this and not have a day job to me that's it's it. That's all I need. Okay. And so I said, let's try New York. What have I got to lose? I mean, we're losers. So you went with, but you went as a crew? Yeah, me and three guys moved up. Sean

was already there, so he was kind of the benchmark, and then we went up and met him. You guys were buddies? Oh, okay. Okay, so Patton showed you around. Yeah, and we did the alt scene back then. All these bar rooms, creaking the cave, all that stuff. I was too scared of the clubs. Really?

Yeah. Because it feels to me like you fit the clubs more than the alt scene. Now I do, for sure. I just like an audience. I like a set time. I like a microphone that works. Yeah, I know. I get it.

But it's weird because the alt scene had a certain tone to it. And I guess a lot of you guys, though, who ended up really kind of broader club acts, had to start there, because that was more of the, that was more of like an open mic thing. Yes. It was more forgiving. Yes.

So you could fucking work out. Exactly. There was no, like, that's true. That's weird. I never thought about that, because the sort of major clubs, the open mic thing don't happen that much anymore there was no like they just went away because they're any people could find these

other fucking outlets yeah figure out how to do it exactly you had to because you were so green you didn't want to expose yourself at a comedy club with paying customers comedy clubs used to have oh i know i know they really don't the mid The road still does. Oh, they do? Yeah, you go to Omaha, they've got the open mic night or whatever. On Monday or Sunday or whatever. Right, right, yeah. But now, I mean, and I still like the Alts. I still do it. I still embrace it.

I think it's cool. Sometimes they're getting a little on edge where they're like analyzing your act. You're like, come on, this kills. But it's like there was no, it was weird because there wasn't much business in it. It was just, there was an attitude to it. But if you could get laughs, because a lot of times I imagine you'll notice that, you know, there are acts that try to be alt and there are acts that come out of alt that don't, that didn't necessarily really surface and have the ability to play a general club. Yeah. And then, you know, even if you're not alt, as long as you're, I've seen total hacks kill an alt room.

I know, right? It's true. Well, there's know, right? It's true. Well, there's alt hack, too. That's true, but it's not that discerning a crowd. They're just of a fashion. Yes, yes, exactly. But they won't laugh at certain stuff because it goes against their fashion. Yes, which I think is silly.

A little nervous. Everyone's a little nervous. We're all nervous. I get it. I feel like this is so comedy in depth, we're going to lose a lot of housewives. We do a little nervous. We're all nervous. I get it. I feel like this is so comedy in depth, we're going to lose a lot of housewives. This is what we do. You're misunderstanding my audience, I think.

I mean, I'll talk all day, but I just don't want to bore the fat guy in Milwaukee who's just mowing the lawn. No, he'll enjoy it. Don't worry. It's good. He's happy to hear you talk about the big city. All right. All right.

This is hitting 1% of people. Don't worry, it's good. He's happy to hear you talk about the big city. All right, all right, all right. This is hitting 1% of people. No, it's not. I used to do this all the time. All right. This is how it started, Mark. That's true. I was a listener from the get-go.

And you remember the days. Hell yeah. Just me apologizing to comedians. Me apologizing to people I've known forever. Are we good? Yeah, we are good. You and I are good. I kind of, I don't know why it took so long to get around to you.

Well, there's 8,000 comics now. I get it. No, but like, I think there's probably some old man he kind of like, you know, like, who is this kid? Of course. I have that with young people. You do? Yeah, well, some TikTok queef. I'm like, what do you know?

Go write something. But then he's more famous than I am, so he's doing something's that's what that's where you're the resentment is the tiktok guys yeah well what do they have dude and it's like the thing is it's like you do a job you can do a job did you record that thing at dynasty yeah no shit i love that room yeah i do too i work out there all the time very ulti it is but to me in order for to write, I need the space to just sort of stretch out. So I don't care what the audience is there. Usually my people come, but I just need to be like, I just got to work out some shit. I don't know.

That's too selfish. Too indulgent. How do you do it? I mean, they already like you, so that's different. No, it's the only way I can organize my shit. You write things down like math. I talk things through. Yeah, I just don't want to bother anybody.

No, but I let them know. I say, look, this isn't a big show. I'm not sure where it's going to go, but if you want to see me fucking noodle and ramble for an hour and a half, come down. And they come. And they come. Sure. Wow. It's a small room.

It's not a huge pricey ticket. All right, all right. I used to do it for five bucks at the Steve Allen. Now that I like. That's fun. I used to do those shows at the Steve Allen Theater before it closed for like $5 and I give it all to the theater. Whoa.

I just need to improvise through shit to see what sticks. Yeah. I just can't. I don't have the self-esteem. I feel guilty. I can't do it. Yeah, but you write things down. You're like, I've got this joke.

Now I know the joke. Now I'm going to bring it on stage and do it. And I do tweak, of course, on stage. You listen after. You go, that's got to go. Keep that. Me, I write something down like flying cats. And then I get up there and see, stretch it out.

Yeah. What does that even mean? But that takes guts because that silence, I panic. I frazzle. That's the worst. But that frazzle, I think, pushes you to write. Well, what it does is it... It's fight or flight a little bit.

That's what it is. With creativity. It's like it's cornering yourself. Yes. If I'm really funny, I should figure out a way out of this silence. I know, but then you end up making a Jew joke or a pussy joke just because you're freaking out. Or just like, yeah, just go down the fucking pit of myself, which sometimes is funny. That's true.

Just to be able to be like, look where we are, and I did it. Yeah, and you saw it. I exposed myself for you. It's your fault. I know, and you feel so vulnerable, but it kind of feels good. No, well, that's where it happens, you know? That's hard. Well, yeah.

The vulnerability thing. Do you avoid it? Yeah, oh, yeah. Come on. Well, that's honestly the issue that I had, I think, going into this in terms of, like, why haven't I talked to Mark Norman yet? Uh-huh. Because, like, I'll watch the set, and I'll watch an hour, and I'm like, where's he at?

I get that a lot. I get that a lot. I get that a lot. What's he dodging, this fucking guy? I'm dodging it all. All the pain, all the weirdness, all the awkwardness. I feel everything. You do? Yeah.

Some people say, oh, you're a sociopath. And I go, well, if I was, that wouldn't hurt my feelings. Yeah. So has it always been a way for you to kind of i guess it is for all of us it's a dumb question to avoid the fucking you know it's like it's a way to have complete control over your dumb world there you go that's all we want that's what comedy is harry shearer said it best i know comedy's uh he said it here on i think he said it here to control why people laugh at you yeah i think that's did you hear it here i probably did i think about that twice a day yeah that's what he said that to me and it's like To control why people laugh at you. Yeah, I think that's, did you hear it here? I probably did. I think about that twice a day.

Yeah, that's what, he said that to me, and it's like, I thought about it too. Yeah. It's like, you can control why people laugh at you. Right. It's great. It's perfect. I mean, I was a bed wetter, you know, the weirdo in the neighborhood. You were?

Yeah, all that shit just stuck with me, so I need to control it. You wet your bed? Oh, yeah. For how long? Pretty late, you know, 11 no yeah yeah i'm covered in urine now but now it's different it's booze yeah then it was just that's true but i've peed on a lot of kids i've peed on more kids than r kelly i mean just the sleepovers alone brutal you know kids wake up what the fuck jesus i'm like i'm sorry oh what was it what causes it

ah they say it's trauma. I don't know. Could you track the trauma? I think the neighborhood was rough. We got robbed a lot. Really? Our house was scary. Barely, you know, the pipes barely worked.

The electricity barely worked. I had a mechanic's light hanging. That was my light. Like a work light? Yeah, like a shed light. Why? I thought your parents were lawyers. Well, they bought this crazy mansion in Treme that was dilapidated.

Oh, so they were going to fix it up? They were going to fix it up, but it's so expensive. So they never got around to fixing that? They fixed half of it, and then they needed more income, so they made that happen to a bed and breakfast. So now we're living in squalor, but then the bed and breakfast is pristine. Really? Yeah, it was a weird upbringing so you had people just coming in quaint people your mom's making them breakfast and my mom was whipping up french toast and i got chinese businessmen traveling musicians hippies whatever at the table before school yeah and you're and you're living in

a room with a work light yes exactly you know what it's like to jerk off with a with a work light it feels weird. Necessary. Yeah, it was actually appropriate. So that's what did it, huh? That's what kind of fucked your head up? I guess. And our alarm would go away, this big alarm system in the house,

and it would go off at 2 in the morning, and you're 9 years old going, oh, God, there's somebody in the house. It's freaky. You can just hear people downstairs. You come down, the TV's gone. Oh, my God. It was a wacky way to grow up. So do they still own the house?

No. They got two guys came in and tied them up. There was guns, so they moved out. When you were there? No, I was at a Mardi Gras parade. I was 14. And I came back. There was cops everywhere.

It was a whole thing. Oh, my God. I know. it was wild. So they tied him up and robbed him? Yeah, you know, where's the cash? Was your brother there? He was there. I feel guilty that I wasn't there.

Did they tie him up? Yeah, oh yeah. Oh my God. I know, heavy stuff. I'm too weak for that, I would have crumbled. And done what? I would have blown a guy, I don't know. I would have just panicked and been like, whatever you need.

Even if they didn't ask you to? Yeah. My dad's like, why'd you blow that guy? I'm like, I don't know. I was trying to save the family. Stop it, Mark. It's not necessary. He didn't want that. That's fucking hilarious. So that is terrifying. Oh, it was horrible. I mean, the 90s

in New Orleansleans i moved to new york i was like watch out for new york new york was nothing compared to new orleans were you there during uh katrina or that was yeah i was in college in about an hour away that was devastating man i went down there and did that comedy show for bill sykes like within the year it was less than a year after and it was still like leveled oh yeah it was sad leveled. Oh, yeah. It was sad. Oh, my God.

The houses with the Xs on them and all that shit. Whole neighborhood's fucking gone, just whole neighborhoods. It was like driving around because we took a ride around it. I couldn't believe it. Yeah. It was a big blow, but now the city's doing great. It kind of had an enema to the city, and now it's thriving. Is it? Yeah.

You go back? All the time. See the folks. They're all right? They're all right, yeah. Where's your brother? He's living there, bought a house. Wife's a doctor, killing it.

Wow. Yeah, he's living the good life. Two kids. But every Thanksgiving, he grabs my arm after three beers and goes, don't do it. Oh, really? Like, don't get married. Really? Yeah, he sees you on Fallon.

He's like, oh, man, you're living it up. But I'm like, oh, I'm sad too. Yeah. That's five minutes. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But, oh, God, man.

But the piss in your bed thing, it wasn't like that show. Do you remember that after school special where the mother put the sheet, hang the sheet out the window? No. What was it, James at 15? What was that weird, the bedwetter story? It was terrible. No.

It was like an after school special where the horrible mother would hang the sheet out in front of the house so everyone could see. What a cunt. Yeah. And then the kid

would have to run home before the other kids would pass the house to pull the sheet in. Oh, it's horrible. I mean, Jesus. That didn't happen to you though. No, no, no, no.

My sheets looked like an old treasure map. I mean, Jesus. That didn't happen to you, though. No, no, no, no. My sheets looked like an old treasure map, I mean, with the yellow lines on it and everything. But my mom did the crinkly, the plastic. So one time I had a friend over, and he sat on it, and I had to make up a whole thing. But yeah, it was embarrassing. Hiding the bedwetting. Yeah, that was a big part of my life as a kid,

staying up all night to sleep over, because if you fall asleep for 10 minutes, you piss. Really? Yeah, I had no control. Oh, my God. It's terrible. So now I'm on no sleep the next day. We're playing baseball.

Trying to be cool. Yeah, just going with it. Oh, that's fucking terrible. I went to a sleepover. My best friend when I was like eight, seven maybe was my neighbor. I literally went to a sleepover next door at his house and threw up

all over everything and like forever you know the father like every time I go over there they had to cut

a piece of carpet to put over the stain that I made on the rug and it was just like it was next door so you gotta think like his parents

are like are you kidding me this Jew from next door came over you got to think like his parents is like, are you kidding me? This Jew from next door came over to our house and just threw up. Because his mom made weird food. I didn't know what it was. What was it? I don't know.

I think I was just nervous. Hamburger helper, some Gentile shit. Well, I mean, my mother couldn't cook. But, you know, it was just weird. Yeah. Because I think it was, when I look back on it, I think it was totally anxiety-based. Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

It wasn't like I wasn't sick. Yeah. I was just nervous. You were so close. You could have just ran home. I could have. Help me. Damn.

I could have ran. Damn, that sucked, man. I could have ran home and thrown up. Yeah, that stuff is the kid. Now a kid can just Uber. He can get out of there. I feel like you were stuck somewhere. How'd you get over the pissing thing? I got older.'t know i just went away yeah like at 14 it kind of just

stopped happening thank god were you did you notice it were you like oh it was great i mean you sleep full eight hours and you're singing in the morning like uh was it after the the tying up thing did that end it no that didn't help oh but uh it was around then because we moved houses and i maybe that was it and that's when it happened yeah we went moved to a better neighborhood oh my god they gave up on the project yeah it just took them almost being murdered yeah exactly that's what it took not the kids being sad and scared but hey it made us tough i mean i lived in new york and got mugged a couple times. You did?

And got bed bugs. Landlord died of AIDS. You know, poor for five, six years. Whoa, whoa, that's a lot of information. You were a janitor? I was a janitor. Great gig, by the way. So you get to New York and you start, you move where first?

I moved to the Crown Heights. And there's, you know, I don't know if you've been there. In Brooklyn? Yeah. 2007. There was still some Jewish black tension then. And I lived on the black side. Yeah.

And so they all thought I was Jewish because of the curly hair. Yeah, yeah. And the Rouseys. And you ran around going like, I don't like them either. They're all over the place. Yeah, yeah. But I'd get a lot of like, you're on the wrong side, motherfucker. You know, from guys on the black side.

And yeah, like also Jews would, you know, I'd come home 5 a.m. drunk and Jews would pull up in a minivan and go, what are you doing? Get in. And I was like, I'm not Jewish. And they would slide that door closed and drive off. Yeah. It was a nice sentiment until they knew I was a goy. The Hasids in their station wagons? Yes.

Big white minivan, slid the door open. Nothing? Nothing. I said, I'm not Jewish, and they were out of there. What were they going to do? Give you a ride? They were going to give me a ride to the other side of Eastern Parkway. Where you didn't live?

No, I was a block away from home. But I was a drunk mess. You know, you remember being an open miker. You're so clueless. You're standing at those clubs all night. You're wandering around for hours yes three in the morning yes and then you know you end up you know kind of making your way home exactly after you did a shitty set at two places yep and hung around with sean patton for

four hours yeah and drinking anything you can is that red wine is that beer is that liquor whatever you got i just got to cut this anxiety i'm freaking out right right so that went on for a while when where'd you move after crown heights moved to bushwick which was like the the hamptons yeah compared to crown heights got bed bugs there then had to move out and i'm i had bugs like that was the worst it's like you feel like a nom vet did they bite me yeah i was i was a wreck i didn't because i had them at one of the apartments and they didn't bite me but they were around it's so hard to get rid of that's the thing my roommate they didn't bite at all yeah and they went to town on me and i was furious but i it was so menacing mental oh dude you wake up at 3 a.m and you're like

and you can't see them it's dark they're dark you know it was and there's all these myths about them like you can never get rid of them they're a thousand years old yeah there's no killing them they're in the walls yeah they're for they're forever there there's impossible to get rid of if they're in the building it's over there's truth to that because i bought a new bed you know which is all the money i had i washed all my clothes and i got an exterminator and they were still there well that's the thing like i don't know when it started happening um because it was after I left, but the woman who was subletting my apartment in Queens, the building got them. Yeah. And I just remember I got so fucking organized.

Everything was in plastics. Yes. I sealed everything up, cleaned everything up. A guy came over to exterminate, and he was wheezing. This Indian dude, and he's wheezing, going, it was better when we could use the dmt the ddt oh wow like he was mourning the times where they could use real poison yeah and he could barely breathe the way it was and i don't know if they ever went away but like it they seem not unlike like a virus to sort of like it got less yeah i don't know how or why but you know it just seemed

you stopped hearing about it for a while it was all you fucking heard about. All you heard about. Don't sit on the subway bench. You'll get it. They're in the wood. Yeah, they're everywhere. I know. And then you start seeing them when they're not there, and then the eggs.

Yes. Got to get the mattress. Got to wrap your bed. Got to wrap all your clothes. My closet was just these weird plastic sealed things. Yeah, yeah. So Bushwick, bed bugs, and then where do you scramble after that? I had sex with a girl who lived in the East Village.

And I remember waking up at her apartment and being like, this is what it's all about. Just the idea of waking up in Manhattan, on the island, no more L train, no more crossing that river every day. And I vowed to myself, I'm going to move to the village. So I paid $800 for a shoebox with two guys, a DJ and a painter. And we lived on 5th Street and 2nd Avenue in the village. And I loved it. I lived on 2nd between 1st and A for years, a couple of years. It's a good area.

It's a good area now. Yeah. When I was there in 1989. Holy hell. It was still a little rough. But you still had Mars Bar and all those cool dock holidays. Sure, yeah. And Save the Robots.

Yeah. But there was a lot of dope around, and Giuliani had just sort of, it felt like he had just started to do his thing and crack down on that shit. But there was a lot of the white heroin around, a lot of kids snorting the dope. Yeah, but that could be worse. I mean, at least they're kind of woozy and zonked out. No, I lived right next door to a heroin place, and I was sober at the time. But I did like living there, though I did get my car broken into constantly. Ah, that's tough. What are you going to do? I didn't get mugged. How'd you get mugged? Where'd you get mugged?

I got mugged once in Crown heights crazy story drunk yeah took the subway you know two in the morning of course it changed you know construction we're gonna take you a bit so i i got out like way far away from my house because the the whole detour bullshit with the subways yeah so it's like a 30 minute walk but i'm like fuck it i'll walk it it's a nice night i'm drunk i got my headphones in which is a big red flag, the Apple headphones. And I see these guys on the corner. I'm talking like out of a movie, hood shit, rolling dice, drinking 40s, playing music, the whole thing, stereotype. And I go, I'm just going to cross the street, nerdy white guy, what are you going to do?

And then this older guy is coming towards me. And I go, he's got a white beard he's probably like 65 70 and right when he gets in front of me he goes give me that radio and he won't let me buy him and i'm like i was so drunk i go it's not a radio like it's an mp3 player yeah you know and he grabs it so i grab it and now we're doing this shit tug of war and then he picks me up by my shirt and starts slamming me against the you know when a business closes that metal metal gate thing goes down? Yeah. And it's like pow, pow.

It's like this big thunderous booming. And I'm like kicking him and punching him, but he won't budge. Those guys over there, the dice throwers, see this, run over, pull him off me, beat the shit out of the guy, stomping him, the whole thing. I grab my iPod and i ran home wow yeah and i asked a cop about it later and he said those were probably drug dealers and they can't have a honky getting killed in the uh in the turf because it'll draw a lot of attention you didn't understand why they were helping you yeah i had i thought they were nice i said thank you i patted one on the back and i ran away terrifying yeah and boy this guy was he must have been pcp'd up

something was he was so charged up this guy cracked up something was going on yeah well you got out of that one and then you won so the girl you swept within the east village yeah where'd that go anywhere no no that fizzled with comedy yeah but but she inspired you to move yes and i moved there and i never looked back. Then I lived on Bleecker Street. I lived in the village. You lived on Bleecker Street? All over.

Huh? You lived on Bleecker Street? Bleecker and right by Joe's Pizza. Oh, yeah. Beautiful apartment. Off by 6th Avenue? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Wow. And that was a game changer. I've always wanted to be in the village. And you're still there, right? Now I'm there again with a nice big place with windows, and I got stairs in my apartment. I got a little railing, pre-war. Good times. Yeah?

Where's that? Sixth Avenue, right off Minetta. Oh, really? So you live at the cellar? Yeah, basically. Minetta Lane and Sixth Avenue. Yeah. That's great.

It's great. It's like a fairy tale street. Do you live by yourself? No, me and my lady. Oh, you got a lady? And a cat. And a cat. How long's the lady thing happening?

A couple years. I mean, it's pretty serious. Is she a comic? Yeah, trying it out. She's a newish comic. Got a podcast. Like, you got to do. What's her name?

Uh-oh. I don't know if I'm supposed to be talking about her. Why? She don't want you to? Well, I don't know what she wants out there. Her name's May. Check out her pod. That's what I was going to say.

You were had. What, you're not going to, can't plug her podcast? All right, I'm plugging it to say. We were had. You can't plug her podcast? All right, I'm plugging it. Yeah. We were had. We were had? It's like a true crime kind of podcast. That's what it's called?

We were had? We were had. We got tricked. Oh, cool. Yeah. And it's going all right for her? Going all right, yeah. Are you doing a regular podcast?

Yeah, I got two now. Because I know I see you talking to somebody. Who do I see you talking to? Joe List and Sam Morrill. And Sam Morrill. No, but didn't I see you talking to Joe DeRosa? No. Maybe list and sam morrell and sam no but i didn't i see you talking to joe de rosa no hey i love joe no maybe not so it's whist and and morel yeah me and sam have one about drinking and then me and list have one about kind of the road and living and oh really

yeah how are they going going great yeah pods man yeah i know you know who you're about to work who knew we all wanted to be the one thing we we never wanted to be, we all seem to aspire to now. Radio personality. Well, isn't it bananas that you talking to some dweeb gets more views than Conan? Yeah. You know, I don't know whose fault that is. I know whose fault it is. Those goddamn talentless suits with no vision and no creativity and no balls.

I don't know. Well, everything is no creativity and no balls i don't know well everything is broken apart and it's very hard to know like there's no like one guy anymore yeah so you know you find you a little corner and you just deal with it if you can make a living in you but it's very out to me and i never thought about it until recently kevin christie brought it up to me is that like you know everyone's doing their version of drive time radio. Like, you know, like a podcast is a podcast. I get it. But a lot of them are really just, you know, radio shows. Yeah.

And when I was coming up, it's like that meant that it was over. Like if you ended up, you know, hosting a radio show, especially a regional radio show, you were like the sidecar on a radio show. So I asked you, bad, he couldn't cut it. But now it's sort of like, it's expected of you. I know. To figure out how to put together your own radio show. That's too bad. He couldn't cut it. But now it's expected of you to figure out how to put together

your own radio show. But it's called a podcast. But I guess that's the joke now that everybody's got a podcast. But it's weird that things just go back. Things just 180, 360, all the way, back to where it started. Now we're back sitting on the floor watching the radio. Yeah, I think that's true.

I do think that because of the DIY nature of it yeah i think that's true uh i i do think that because of the diy nature of it everybody thinks that they should be able to do something uh successfully and who the hell knows what makes someone interesting on these fucking mics because there's plenty of people that do it that aren't oh yeah and i don't know what how they persist i don't know could you do a podcast like every week if like, you know, nine people listened? No, hell no. But how long could you do that? It's like the lottery though. They go, oh my, I'll win. It's me. I guess so. But I think it's also a delusion around the idea that it doesn't take talent to do it. Yeah. But I think they think they're talented. Of course. Yeah. I think that's what I'm saying is the problem. Yes, yes. Well, that's the problem with Americans in general.

Well, I know, but it wasn't before everybody could do everything on their own. Of course, of course. Now no one knows when to stop because they just think like it's a matter of time. Yeah, this is new and it's not pretty. It isn't. And I've said that and I feel like some sort of weird entertainment fascist when I say it. It's like, you know, it was better when everyone didn't have a voice. I know, but then why do you get one and they don't? Well, no, no, no, I get it. I say it. It's like, you know, it was better when everyone didn't have a voice. I know, but then why do you get one

and they don't? I get it. I mean, I understand and everybody should have a place, but like, you know, to weed through thousands of comments by people with fake names talking about, you know, bullshit. Yeah, yeah. And your mom. Oh, yeah. Gotta throw her

in there. She's part of the stream. I think it's almost like having a kid. Not everybody should have a kid. There's a lot of psychos out there. I don't have them. Yeah, you know not to have one. I do. You know you're nuts.

Yes. But that's why. But you're allowed to. Everybody's allowed to, which is a horrible system and a horrible idea. But how else can it be? What are you going to say? Hey, no kids. If you want to live in a free country.

Yeah. This is the price of freedom. A lot of bad shit. Yes. Being put through the fucking, the machine. Yes. Podcasts are like babies. They're too easy to make and not everybody should have one.

That's the message if you live with anything. And now we're just dealing with a lot of crying. Yes. Of one kind or another. Yeah. So when does comedy start to take off? So you're doing what? of one kind or another. Right. Yeah. So when does comedy start to take off? So you're doing what?

You're doing open mics? When do you get passed at the cell? Are you, Morell, and List get passed around the same time, or how's that? Sam got in first. I think he had kind of a Jew bond over there with everybody. With Esty? Yeah, yeah.

But he's great, obviously. I'm joking. And then List got sober and just kicked it up a notch career-wise. And I think we all kind of banded together. We're like, you got to get this guy in. What's it like, six years ago? Five years ago? Yeah, yeah, something like that. Six, seven. But List was, I mean, he's been doing comedy for 98 years.

He was opening for Dane Cook and DiPaolo and Gullman and all these guys. So he's more of a vet than any of us. And so when did you, so you start hanging around the cellar like everybody else and kind of making your way towards the table or what? I'm not a hang guy. I stay back. I don't make waves. I don't get made fun of.

Yeah. I'd rather get in on my own merit, you know, and these guys who hang out, I never got it. No? Like maybe, you know, I'll just eat wings every night and then if they need a guy, you know, if Geraldo dies dies i'll be there but yeah i i just kept i just want to get better get better right your own business yeah mind your own business stick with your guys and go go do a show go to a mic instead of waiting around yeah yeah yeah get up work it you're not gonna do that at the gym let me just wait around the gym right now go to the gym and work out so when when did uh

what was your break? Opening for Schumer, really? Schumer was big, but I was still a janitor. I was a janitor during the day, mopping up shit in the bathroom, and then I was doing arenas at night with her. Where were you a janitor? I was like a hedge fund skyscraper in Midtown. What was that, a temp job?

It was three days a week, nine to five. How'd you fucking settle on that? I saw it in a classified ad, and i jumped on it because i was uh i was a furniture mover and all this other stuff but that requires too much thinking i wanted to be zoned out so i could just think about my act uh-huh and uh i worked temp at like a couple universities answering phones and data entry i wanted to kill myself you're stuck in a chair just putting in numbers excel spreadsheet spreadsheet. Nightmare. Fluorescent lights, bad coffee, small talk in the kitchenette. Nightmare.

But at least with labor, you can just kind of move and be free and listen to headphones and think. So I like that. So you just took a janitor gig. Mopping, headphones in. You get into like a David Bowie zone and you're mopping. I mean, it's a beautiful thing. And no one's fucking with you. Yeah, no one's.

I would go to the boiler room and write like a weird hunchback. So it was just all about the comedy, and you didn't want to be interfered. You didn't want the job to interfere with the fuck your head up. Yeah, yeah. And you were able to accept the zen of mopping. Exactly, yeah, zen of mopping. And they say there's very good therapeutic value in cleaning. Oh, yeah.

And I think there's truth to that. Sure, man. Except the maids at the hotel don't seem happy. But that's a whole different ball of wax. What do you mean? They must be thrilled. What are you talking about? Like, he already did it.

He made his own bed. Sticky as hell. Yeah. Yeah, when you're cleaning your hotel room out of shame, that's a sign that you might need to get your shit together. Like, I don't want the maid to see this fucking... Oh, good point. Yeah. That could be a bit.

Write that down. All right, now you don't have to try it on a bunch of strangers. Oh, yeah. But yeah, yeah. So janitor was great, but I was doing these Schumer gigs, and then she kind of got me an audition at the Cellar, got in, and then- How'd she find you? Oh, crazy story.

I was at Comics. Remember Comics? Yeah. I saw you there with Garofalo years ago. Were you judging? I was just so green. I was in awe. Oh.

I went and saw everybody. Geraldo, you, you know, whoever. It was kind of like they really put a lot into that room. I know. And they overpaid everybody, and I was coming in from out of town. They used to put us up put a lot into that room. I know. And they overpaid everybody. And I was coming in from out of town. They used to put us up at a fancy hotel. Yeah.

And you just knew right away. It's like, where's this money coming from? And how is this going to survive? So true. I looked at the menu. It said pesto. I said, this isn't going to last. Yeah.

I mean, it was like they really did it. And it was at the sort of the kind of renaissance of the meatpacking district. But it just like it was doomed. And the crowd was models and blow. It was weird, man. of the meatpacking district. Yes. But it just like, it was doomed. And the crowd was models and blow. It was weird, man. It wasn't going to work. Yeah. But great club when it worked.

Yeah. That was like my home club. I would do that bottom room, that downstairs. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like my spot. Right. But I saw Patrice there. I saw everybody there.

I saw you do a live WTF with a tell, and that was like legendary. And Schumer came in at the end of that. That's right. And Geraldo too. Yes! Yeah, that was a big one. That was a big one. I saw that live. That was exciting. I was so impressed with Amy because like, you know, she, I don't think she was scheduled to come on and we let her go last. Yeah.

And it was after like Attell and Geraldo and I can't remember who else was there. Maybe Joe DeRosa maybe? Maybe DeRosa, maybe Morgan Murphy. Oh, that's possible. Yeah, Morgan definitely did one. And then like Amy just came in and fucking nailed it at the fucking end. She's a pro. I mean, she doesn't get her due.

She's so good on her feet. Yeah, she really is. Yeah. Not only did she not get her due, she got like a bad rap for reasons that were not correct. I agree. I agree. But hey. But that's, so she saw you there? I was bombing at a showcase there, and I had one joke work, and she happened to walk through

the crowd to go to the groom when I was doing that joke. Yeah. I guess she liked the joke, and she came in the groom and said, hey, that was funny. And I was like, oh, covered in sweat. Like, oh, really? Jeez. Yeah. And she was like, I'm doing some gigs.

You ever want to open? And I was like, oh my God, of course. Yeah. So then we went all over and did a bunch of gigs, and she wasn't big yet, so it was like Funny Farm and- Oh doing some gigs. You ever want to open? And I was like, oh, my God, of course. Yeah. So then we went all over and did a bunch of gigs. And, you know, she wasn't big yet. So it was like Funny Farm and. Oh, club gigs. Yeah, half sold.

Yeah. Funny Bones. And then, man, she just ticked up, did the roast, then had her own show, then a movie, and then it was the garden. You did the garden with her? I saw her in the thing. Yeah, yeah. And Madonna.

Yeah. What do you mean, and Madonna? Madonna did a set on one. Really? Yeah. That was when it was like, what are we doing? Who are you? Right. You know Madonna. Yeah. What do you mean, and Madonna? Madonna did a set on one. Really? Yeah. That was when it was like, what are we doing? Who are you? Right.

You know Madonna? Right. How did that change everything for you? Well, she was still cool. I mean, she's a comic all the way. No, no, that's true. So she was not, I remember one time I was opening for her at Gotham, and I texted her because I was so broke and miserable, and I I said there's free pizza in the green room

like get over here and she goes I'm making 60 grand and I was like oh right right right so that was kind of when I was like oh she's going up in the world yeah but how did it feel for you like because I mean I guess that's it was unreal surreal the one thing about jokes about like you know knowing

you have your jokes 15 minutes 20 minutes of shit that works in a small room all you got to do is slow it down exactly and you know it's like cake right cake and now you're glad you got that material yeah you know these guys like i'll make it work i'll figure it out i'm like no no i want that tight set so i can kill in this theater yeah so then yeah i started i opened for louis for while, opened for a bunch of people at Seinfeld, and yeah, things started cooking. Was everybody nice to you?

Very nice. I felt like the people who weren't nice were the least funny. Uh-huh. It was a lot of that. Oh, yeah? Yeah, like Tom Papa took me on the road a little bit, and he was the sweetest guy ever. Yeah. And he's a good comic.

Yeah, he is good. He's got tight craft, that guy. Oh, yeah, he's a pro. Yeah. But it's odd. It's old school, man. It's almost Jack Benny-ish sometimes. Yeah, it's a little of that, but that's part of the charm. No, no, no. It's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always envy the guys that are that tight. Yeah. Like working with Seinfeld. What made an impact on you starting out like that when you saw these guys? Was there something? Because, I mean, we're all stubborn fucking cunts. And we don't want to really learn anything.

But occasionally you're working with somebody and you're like, I'm going to make note of that. Oh, yeah. But was there anything you took away from those experiences? Yeah, mostly the business stuff. Because I learned that you've got to kind of say what you like and don't like and stick up for yourself. And if the limo driver's talking to you too much, you got to go, hey, that's enough.

Right. And I would go, oh, my God, what are you doing? This is a human being. But now I totally get it. Yeah. Now you're in a town car. You're going, why the fuck is this guy asking me about Letterman? I don't know.

So I'm not saying they're mean. So you had to learn how to be rude. Well, you had to learn how to- Boundaries. There you go. That's the word. Yeah. So that was interesting.

Money, like, you're the one going out. They're getting 10%. You're doing all the work. You got to push for this. And I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you said here, it's 50 bucks, go do this, I would do it. Yeah, because you get into this mind, right, where it's sort of like, oh, it's a gig?

Yeah. You don't even ask about money. No, of course not. You're sort of like, okay, yeah, I'll drive seven hours. Sure. Wait, I get to order off the whole menu? Holy shit. I've hit the big time.

What do we get paid for this, by the way? I'll give you a fucking coffee. All right, I'll take it. Yeah. I got to do Bobby Lee after this. Oh, really? You're doing the circuit? I'm doing the big circuit.

This is the new Tonight Show circuit. This is the new late night. I love Bobby. Yeah, he's a good egg. He's a good egg. Funny guy. He is a very funnyby yeah he's a good egg funny guy he is very funny guy it's a nut now did you i mean obviously you live in a great home you got a great setup here but uh do you miss that fucking because you were part of that heyday man i'm talking quinn

and louis and burr and atel and patrice and dipalo and gdo. You were in that. Those were like, well, I think Quinn was actually, I would put him the generation before me, really. And so by the time I got to New York, do I miss that, being in the dirt of it? Well, it was weird because, you know, Burr's like I think a little younger than me and he'd come down from Boston. But by the time a lot of those guys came, I was out of New York by 2002. After 9-11, I was out here. And I was in New York from, I guess I was there pretty much 89 to 2001.

So some of those cats came after. I came to know them from coming back. Yeah. But it wasn't like I was there when Patrice first got there. I was there. Like Geraldo I knew from the old days, but he was actually a little younger than me because I remember when Geraldo was sort of doing a tell. Like I can remember them starting out. Yeah. them starting out. The guys that I came up with mostly were like Todd Berry, Jeff Lifsholtz,

or Jeff Ross, DePaulo I knew from Boston, because I started in Boston really in 88. So there were some of those guys, but some of the guys you're talking about were a little after me. I was there when Bill came down. Remember when Bill and Kevin got big deals? Kevin Brennan? Kevin Hart. I started with Kevin Brennan too. He was definitely when Bill and Kevin got big deals? Kevin Brennan? Kevin Hart. Oh. I started with Kevin Brennan, too. Like, he was definitely around. He was a big deal.

He was great. You know, I don't know, like, you know, now he's got a very weird following. Sure. You know, and you always, every once in a while I'll see a tweet, I'm like, I don't have a problem with Kevin, do I? Yeah. Does he have a problem with me? I think that's all part of the fun.

Oh, yeah. That's what fun is? Well. So, yeah, I think I'm having a hard time adjusting to the new fun, I think. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I was so, like you, like, wracked with anxiety and freaked out. I didn't get passed at the Cellar until she saw my half hour on HBO.

Like, everyone else was passed at the Cellar. You know, Louie was around, and, and you know him and nick and those guys when i was there like in 89 they were all working catch and the cellar and me and todd were wandering around doing like you know boston comedy club the old improv places that you know the secondary rooms yeah that would let us work there was no alt scene yeah so it was a lot of stress and a lot of like why can't we fucking get in there and i didn't like to hang around either like that the catch rising star thing you had to hang around either. Like the catcherizing star thing, you had to hang around for that fucking asshole Lewis

to choose you to go on at some point in the evening. And you can wait there. And it's like, I'm not giving that guy power. And I couldn't stand Manny. I couldn't stand Esty. It's like, I'm not fucking, I can't kiss the ass. So in retrospect, you know, once I got passed and stuff, it was great for five years and one and

the alt scene started and that was exciting but i was a fucking you know drunky drugged up anxious angry mess hey we're one of the same baby but those gatekeepers man that's what that lewis guy like the waiting that i picked you it's that god complex and that's what's great about this yeah no for sure yeah there's a freedom to it. And, you know, I definitely learned how to do it. And I learned how to, you know, I learned how to be on the road in Boston doing one-nighters. So my training was, you know, like sort of specific. It was shit gigs.

Yeah. A two-man show, half hour open, 45 closer. And you had to figure it out. You had to go up cold in a place that wasn't set up for comedy. It's a knife fight. Yeah, man. Totally. But that made you good because I'd see you on good shows where you're like, ah, fuck

you guys. I'm like, no, they like you. This isn't the Calhoun or whatever the fuck it's called. Calhoun, right. Oh, yeah. So you used to be preemptively defensive. Yeah. It was Dan Vitale used to do this.

He used to open his show at the old Improv. He'd just get up there and go like, yeah, I got a feeling that we're not going to get along. Right out of the gate. That's so perfect though, because we've all thought that. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate seeing what I saw when I started, because it was sort of the end of that first generation of dinosaurs. You saw a lot of the sad old guys at the old improv and a lot of the young guys coming up and i saw guys in my generation who i love actually get funny yeah it's a weird thing to like be starting out with somebody like todd or jeff ross where it was like you know you're not funny i mean you're funny but like someone like todd who's hilarious, he only has the Todd speed. Yeah,

so true. But his commitment to it was astounding, because he couldn't change. Yeah, he made it work. Right. It's almost like Borgazzi. Exactly. You watch these guys get funny, because there's no default gear. Yes. Yes, that's true.

And it was sort of amazing, and I like deep uh you know kind of like nostalgia and feelings about like a lot of the dudes in a tell who else was around mark cohen keith was there but like i used to make a tell leave the room when i got passed at the cell i get it i get it i had to go on stage you know he does like a two-man thing sometimes oh yeah and i do that all the time with all these comics. We have a blast. And with him, I just shut down. My brain goes blank. And he's like, what's going on with you?

I'm like, ah, I got nothing. Yeah, because I was so emotional and weird. And the cellar was always weird for me because I was sort of angry. And it wasn't always intentional. And, you know, in Man, he would always come down. Like when he was alive, you know, you'd be on stage. And he'd come and look around all panicked. Yeah.

Like, are they laughing? Yeah. It's like, oh, my God. That's what scared me about the clubs was there was money involved. It was a business. I like a shit bar in the middle of nowhere where the lights are barely on because you felt comfortable. There are no stakes. Yeah.

You're letting me tell my dumb zingers on stage, nobody should be paying for this. Yeah. dumb zingers on stage nobody should be paying for this yeah no but i mean you learn and you learn about like what the seller is and what gotham was and what you know the comic strip was and there's and you'd run around a stand-up new york was another one yeah uh boston comedy club you know all those places you know that was when you kind of did that thing where you try to on a weekend night you try to like line up four to six spots. Hell yeah. And you'd do three different clubs, and you're running around like fucking nuts.

Yeah, I miss that, I guess. The journey, man. It's all about the journey. Yeah, man. But you made it. You did it. I did all right. It wasn't all about stand-up.

Oddly, it was the podcast at the end of the line there. Everything turned around, and everything kind of came together when I was 45. But isn't it weird how you were at the end? I kept hearing you say, I almost got a Starbucks job. It wasn't a Starbucks job. I didn't know what the fuck I would do. Yeah. That's the only thing I had to go back to.

I haven't had a day job since I worked in a restaurant in 87. Oh, man. Which is so funny. They were like, could you imagine going on this, people doing that for oh man which is so funny they were like could you imagine going on this people doing that for their whole life and we're like could you imagine but yeah but like it's like no but I mean it's like what what am I prepared to do outside of show business yeah nothing nothing and I never I never set out to write for other people I never set out to be a showrunner I'm not a tv writer I'm a fucking stand-up yeah so it's not like I can be

like I'm just gonna get on a writing crew I don't know how to do that you know what I'm not a TV writer I'm a fucking stand up Yeah So it's not like I can be like I'm just gonna get On a writing crew I don't know how to do that You know what I mean You can do it No I Yeah Well now that I know What it is

You sit around in a room With ten other guys I know With free bagels Seems pretty good And they get paid Handsomely Might I add

But yeah No I know what you mean But that's the annoying thing When people go Oh you work an hour a night Oh it must be Oh you do a podcast You talk for a living

It's like Fuck you I did twelve years Of grinding And no money money sacrifice our life yes we roll the dice with our future because most people they're just sort of like what do i got to do to get the security i need to feel like i can deal with life yeah we go like yeah fuck that yeah what you're gonna try this i know because we have no choice right i did a Gotham asked me to do some kind of Q&A thing. We're like, hey, you're doing okay now? Talk to some young comics and answer questions.

I was like, all right, sure. I'll talk comedy. So it was five in the afternoon. Everybody's in a suit. And I'm standing behind a desk on the stage. And they go, raise their hand. I go, yeah, what's up? He goes, how do I get an agent?

I'm like, well, you got to get good first. How do I get good? You got to go up and do a bunch of mics. How long does that take? It's like, well, you're already first how do i get good you got to go up and do a bunch of mics how long does that take it's like well you're already out you're done i got two dogs uh how do i make time to do comedy and have a job and work with my dogs i'm like you're out too if you're worried about the dog you're fucked but they don't they want this shortcut and they all hated me by the end of it yeah i i had a hard time i i did that i was asked to do uh one of these fucking like i was i'm sort of uh mad that I didn't see it before.

Like one of these kind of podcast festivals, which was really put together by fucking hack radio consultants who were, you know, pushing this idea that podcasting was some sort of entrepreneurial venture that anyone could do. Right. And they had all these booths of people selling microphones and podcast equipment and all these fucking sad people that thought this was going to be their big life changer, right?

Yeah, yeah. And they wanted me to be the keynote speaker. So I did a few of these where I was sort of like, look, there's no guarantees. I know. This isn't Sally Mae. No, you can't fucking. Like, you know, I'm lucky. Yeah.

My timing once in my life worked out. Yeah. And I had a certain skill set. Right. But I don't know if any of you have that. You can't get into this thinking you're going to make money. Are you out of your mind? Of course.

And so that was a short-lived sidebar career. The keynote speaker. I didn't last. They'll find out soon enough. But yeah, that's weird how people just think that. Oh, this is an option. Well, I just fucking, but it also speaks to that thing where we live in this world where it's like all of a sudden everyone thinks they can do this, which is fucking annoying

because if they do it once, then they think they can do it. Yeah. And then we got like, you know, what about, and I don't want to be that guy. It's like, can you do an hour and a half anywhere, anytime? Yeah. Yeah. Can you do the job? Yes.

No, I think you're onto something here. I'm with you. But it's weird because like, what do we, but we can't be sitting here going like, you don't know. I know. You're that old guy. It's like, what do you got? 20 minutes?

Maybe. Yeah. Boomer. Keep working at it. Yeah. I don't know. But hey. But now like I haven't done it in a year.

I don't even know what I got. I don't even know if I want to do, if I can do it anymore. I got to get up on stage and do the standup and figure out where I'm at now after a year of this and grief. You're going to get back up, and it's all, you're going to love it again. I've done it, like, half my fucking life. I would assume that it's going to come back. Well, no, but, I mean, that feeling, I'm saying, that joy, that euphoria, that fun. You think so?

Oh, yeah, it's coming back. I know. I'd just gotten that. It took me 20, 30 years to get that, to actually have that. I was faking it for 30 years. Well, you had some killer Conan Oh, yeah. It's coming back. I know. I'd just gotten that. It took me 20, 30 years to get that, to actually have that. I was faking it for 30 years. But you had some killer Conans, man. What'd you do?

Conan 50 times? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've seen them all. Yeah, well, I mean, some of them were okay. A lot of them were okay. The young girl joke is great. Oh, yeah.

That's a great joke. You know what's funny about that? What, the teenage girl joke? Yeah. I love that joke, and I did that on Letterman. And I got an email a few years back. Uh-oh.

Somebody saying, you have that clip up on your website. It's not a good look. You might want to take it down. Erase myself? Yeah. That's a great joke. That joke holds up. It may not be culturally appropriate right now for whatever reason, but the logic of

the joke is tight. The logic is tight. The structure is good. And that's the thing about jokes people don't get. It's all mechanics. I'm just saying this, and then I twist it with that. It's not about the message. Well, I mean, but I understand there's a message to it, but it's honest.

And it's like what you were saying in your special. It's like if you're going to let the things that you think out of your head, even though you know that they may not be correct, that is still what you're doing. And it's part of our job to do that. Yeah. So, so like the fact that that runs a risk, you know, we have to shoulder that. But like, I even, when I think about, you know, when I think about that joke and when

I think about what I, first of all, I'm not going to, you know, try to revise history, my own history. Yeah. But then I really thought about that joke and I I'm like, no, this is not incorrect. No, no, that joke works. But yeah, but it's like, you know, we all know innately, it's like, all right, this needs to be, I need to put this out there because it's something in me. Yes.

And it's not everybody's life, and it's not, but it is a real human feeling that a lot of people keep inside of themselves. Of course, of course. But that's sort of our job. Exactly. Is to release that valve, and it's tricky now. I know, but I thought people liked when that valve was released. They do.

Why are you trying to attack the releaser? Well, I'm not sure. There are certain things like, look, man, I mean, there are certain words I don't have to say, and I can live my life. Same. And I'm okay with that. Same. If it hurts people, it hurts people. And, you know, if that's like, you know, like, well, you know, you know the words.

Yeah. But also there are some words that no matter how you frame it, even if you're making a joke about, like, not saying the word. Yeah, yeah. You're just kind of fucking with it. Yeah, but that's fun. It is fun. And they like it too. I mean, when you're a kid, you go, how do you say this in French?

How do you say that curse word? I mean, that's where our brain goes. Right, right. But it's just, it's a tricky thing to really weigh, like, is this really culturally problematic? Right, right, right. And is it worth, do I want to die on that hill or do i want to keep doing it i hear you you know so that's just part of our job too now i guess i completely agree and but i think there's hills to die on and then there's we could do that all day where you go all right well that's

going to get me in trouble so now we've lost every word no yeah but it's not a matter of trouble yeah it's a matter of like you know because like oddly what's happening, I think culturally is that there's, there's a good chunk of the country that would love for you to say fag all day long. Yeah. Now, so it really, it's going to really depend on like, do you want to straddle both worlds? Do you want to like, you know, it's going to come down to that. You can literally go do the most heinous comedy possible.

Yes. You know, like, you know, corpse fucking, you know, hanging Jews, whatever it is. Yeah. You can do that and find a crowd. Oh, yeah. So, but so then it becomes like, so what's your moral universe? Like, you know, like, dude, is there a balance here? You don't want to be that guy.

Agree. But can't there be context where you said that some fucked up thing, but it's in the context of a joke or you're referencing someone else who said it? Of course. So that's when it gets hairy, because I'm like, sometimes it sounds like you just want to win this and beat me instead of actually caring about justice or morality. Well, yeah, it's a it's a trigger thing. Yeah. And it's me, me, me. Like, hey, I'm going to change you. I'm going to I'm going to be the hero instead of let me actually fix this problem or it's just their way of of being like uh heard heard being but it's a victim mindset right sort of like it's very popular right but but it really is kind of weird it's just that like there's there's plenty of places you will never get in trouble it's really just but do you want to be part of that i know i know you know. You know what I mean? Because, yeah, a lot of people are going all one way, and their career is really spiking from it.

But I don't want to do that. I like being a good guy. I want to be nice and get along. Well, I think that what you see there, and I think that what I deal with, too, it's that struggle. Yes. The struggle to be a good guy is funny. I believe that. Because we're not, deep down.

You know? Well, no one is funny. I believe that. I completely, because we're not deep down. You know, no one is. I mean, we're all garbage. Original sin or whatever you want to call it. No, no. I think we all have, you know, it's like you said on the special is that we all have these things in our minds, but, you know, I don't know if that requires a moral judgment. Humans are complicated. Yeah, we're complex.

But I think by, you know, if you really were to look at your behavior in the world, you are a good guy. Right, right. I got you. You're not an animal. You're not a monster. But you want to tell them that sometimes when they call you a monster for making a Down Syndrome joke.

Right. You're like, no, I'm not. I just made a joke. Right, right. But they don't care. Well, a lot of times they just want to be heard. Yeah. And you're like, I understand.

I'll keep that in mind. There you go. Or we can just not cater to the one lady who's furious out of 500. Yeah, yeah. Which is like, yeah, but you don't want her to call up 500 other ladies. Yeah, you got that right. That happens in a second. I know.

On Twitter. It's like, now there's 500 Karens. And they're all watching your special. Yeah, and they are leaving down thumbs. Thumbs down. But I think you straddled the line well. Thank you, man. Good talking to you, man. Yeah, and they are leaving down thumbs. Thumbs down. But I think you straddled the line well. Thank you, man. Good talking to you, man.

Oh, wow. All right. Thanks for having me. This was a treat. You feel all right? Yeah. Appreciate it. Comedy.

All right. Mark Norman, people. Got real towards the end, didn't it? We got there, didn't we? people got real towards the end didn't it we got there didn't we his new special out to lunch can be seen on youtube or at mark norman to comedy.com and his podcast tuesday with stories along with joe list you can get at podcasts wherever you get them you know podcasts yes okay guitar time. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey, La Fonda, all of them. Cat angels everywhere.

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