WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1229 - Gabe Kaplan

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

Whether he was getting booked on The Tonight Show or becoming the first standup to have a hit sitcom based on his act or finding success as a professional poker player, Gabe Kaplan says it all happened in spite of his lack of ambition. Gabe tells Marc how he really wanted to become a professional baseball player, how his athleticism served him well in Battle of the Network Stars, and how his initial years in standup were spent opening for strippers and bellydancers. They also talk about the making of Welcome Back, Kotter and how playing Las Vegas got Gabe into poker. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fucksters? Today we talk to, I talk to, who's we? Me, Gabe Kaplan. Gabe Kaplan, welcome back Cotter. Gabe Kaplan, out of nowhere, is pitched to me, you know, would you like to talk to Gabe Kaplan? Sure, I would like to talk to Gabe Kaplan. Of course, I remember Gabe Kaplan. Gabe Kaplan holds a big part of my brain somehow. Just that hair and that mustache and that delivery.

I remember him from when I was a kid. I was young enough to watch Welcome Back, Cotter when I was a kid. I remember him as a stand-up. But I don't know anything about him or what he's been doing. I know that he played professional poker for a while. But I was excited to talk to him about where he's been, what he's been doing, how he started. He was a big comic. He's the real deal man but what was funny is that you know he hasn't been in the game for a long time and we talked for a while and he asked me i told him i was still at the comedy store we

talked about the comedy store a bit and uh he started when he was like 18 but he asked me if if his picture was still up there i said probably and that night I went and I found his picture I took a picture of it and I texted it to him and that was a nice moment a nice text moment with Gabe Kaplan uh but I was excited to talk to him I think his his daughter is a big fan of the show I'm not exactly sure you know what brought him around but it might have been that but he was like a huge stand-up in the 70s and then he just kind of changed don't you remember when you're like you heard a gabe kaplan's a professional poker player it was like really wasn't he a comic what what happened well i will talk to him well you'll learn you'll learn what

happened it was a it was a thrill to talk to him to to be honest with you. I've got club dates booked, and if everything works out well, I'm going to do them, and I'll have the time, and I'll be ready to do them when they come. But I have dates that are available. Denver at the Comedy Works, August 5th through 7th. Phoenix at Stand Up Live on August 12th. Salt Lake City at Wise Guys, August 19th through 21st. St. Louis at Helium, September 16th through 18th.

You can go to the websites of these venues to get tickets or click on the tour button at WTFpod.com. Also, I want to let you know that I signed some more copies of Waiting for the Punch, the WTF book. These never seem to stay in stock, so I want to give listeners a heads up before they're all gone. to stay in stock so i want to give listeners a heads up before they're all gone uh but you can get them at pod swag.com slash wtf or click on the merch button at wtf pod.com for the signed book what i'm noticing about performing is and just noticing about be out being out in the world in general like the other night night before last me and jerry stall and his uh his girlfriend zoe went to uh i took them out to the comedy store and they you know hung out and did a main room set and then we went to canter's which is distanced and you know had a canter's thing but it's all weird it's all there's there is a weird energy in the air there's still a kind of a

mildly apocalyptic tone to where this city is at economically and where we're all at culturally and where we are all at environmentally. It's still sort of sizzling in the air that that kind of like vibrating frequency of being on the edge of something awful is still around. But what I've noticed mostly in after going to the store, the comedy store a few days and people all of a sudden started to, you know, you haven't seen, I haven't seen these people in a year and you don't even know because you're just at the store and you, it all feels familiar. You're kind of like, Hey, what's up? It's almost like no time went by in a way, except that we're all sort of half scared and wondering about mask and a little weird on stage. Cause we don't know our footing. The audiences are still small and tentative and everybody's weird. It kind of reminded me of doing stand-up in New York just after 9-11 that there is definitely, that was much more intense because

you could smell the burning and many people were killed. But let's not underestimate even on a broad level that over half a million people died of this disease in this country. We've all been through a year of lockdown. And during that year, most of us were terrified on a day-to-day basis. Most of us lost people one way or the other during this pandemic. We had a president that wouldn't leave and was causing complete divisive political strife and fucking with our heads on a day-to-day basis if you were out here in la the sky was orange and the air was unbreathable from fire and we left our groceries on the goddamn stoop you know because we were terrified of a

bag of groceries this was day-to-day life now we i don't think that we can just jump out of that. For me, in terms of dealing with what to deal with comedically, it's acknowledging, acknowledging that PTSD is real and that we all fucking have it. I know we all want to get out there and do what's next and get back to normal. But to disregard what we all went through over the last year, even if you're a belligerent fucking idiot who insisted on, you know, that they didn't feel that. I don't know. You're a minority. But the truth of the matter is, most of us were terrified and brain fucked every day,

one way or the other, for a year. And to think that that much fear and that much panic does not, you know, impact your brain. What does trauma do? Like, if we don't really deal with what we've all been through and somehow move through it or process it or feel it or laugh about it or cry about it or whatever, it's going to break our brains in that we won't remember anything. Which is really fertile ground for fascism and for mind fucking is that trauma you know makes you repress memories and we've already got a lot of momentum in certain states and with certain parties to forget an insurrection to to try to forget what happened in reality on purpose through propaganda so i'm just saying that uh for me in dealing with what

i feel and how i'm going to handle stand up it's moving through this moving through and acknowledging the fucking trauma so we don't forget everything you know why during the pandemic and even now this morning feels like a month ago it It's because we're brain fucked. You know, we've let our phones shatter our minds with information. And also we just, we thought we were going to die if we touched an apple at the supermarket. If we forgot to sanitize our hands after we touched a handle or a button. You know, we thought that was every day. You don't think that brain fucks you?

You don't think trauma is going to fuck you? If you don't remember this stuff, you're not going to be able to use your memory properly. And you're going to be somebody in trauma. So it's just important for me to acknowledge that and to sort of think about it on stage and to see how we can all move through that. Because I feel it.

It feels like a big sort of electric world of ptsd out there right now consider it or else you remember nothing will have will take precedence uh in your mind appropriately your memory will be shattered We're all almost halfway there. Scary. But we got to consider it. Gabe Kaplan. What sort of got him on my radar was this essay he wrote for the new issue of Emmy magazine about his time on Battle of the Network Stars and a situation that happened on there with Robert Conrad. We'll talk about that a little bit. And the magazine is available now.

But it was really kind of an interesting eulogy, not just for Robert Conrad, but for that era. I mean, obviously, it's been dead a while, but there was something, for me, profoundly nostalgic about it because I remember it. It was my childhood. And it was very nice to talk to Gabe Kaplan. So I'll almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. you look great buddy well thank you how you feeling i'm feeling like i'm 77 really yeah when did that start when did you start feeling like that? At 77? March 31st, yeah. I don't know, man. I mean, I think you look better than most 77-year-olds. Thank you. Do you exercise? Do you take care of yourself?

Yes, I exercise. What do you do? I do treadmill almost every day. At home? At home. Yeah. And I have like a little, you know, combination gym deal. Is your health like good?

Yeah. Yeah? Not bad. Yeah? Yeah, a couple little pills, you know, combination gym deal. Is your health like good? Yeah. Yeah? Not bad. Yeah? Yeah, a couple little pills, you know. Yeah. You got to take pills. I take one pill already.

I'm 57. I'm taking a pill. That's when I started. Yeah? That's when you started with the pill? That was my first pill. Wait, what did you start with? What was your first pill?

Lipitor. Yeah, that's mine. That was my first pill. Yeah, hey, that's a 57. Yeah, that's where you learn. Like, you know, my genes aren't that good. No. I'm eating well, and I still have cholesterol issue.

Me too. I eat pretty good. Fish. Yeah. You know, very, very rarely meat. Yeah. And still, right? Still.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. All right, listen, we got all the numbers on. It's scary a little bit. You know, nothing to really be worried about, but... We got to keep an eye on it. We're going to put you on a small dose of Lipitor. Yeah, and the dose stayed the same? No.

Went up? Went up. Why, because the numbers kept going? Numbers go up. Really? So I'm up to 40 mils. A day? A day.

Any side effects? No. No. Do you get obsessed with side effects? I really haven't had any. But like when you look at the label, do you like, oh, fuck. No. I mean, you read the internet, you're done.

People tell you, don't take them. They're evil. No. Yeah, you just got to drink some apple cider vinegar. And also, how about those people that say that meat doesn't cause it? You can't. All these people that have these ideas about health don't really take in the mind that everybody's different. Yeah.

Everybody's body chemistry is different. Yeah. Yeah. So but my numbers are good with all the pills. I take five pills. Yeah. When did you like I remember I read that thing you wrote about Robert Conrad. Oh, yeah. Because it seemed like that was what was out in the world.

He seemed to be pushing that out in the world. Out of nowhere, you dispatch a bit of business to get some clothes. It felt like a eulogy to me a little bit. It was. It was a personal relationship that never really happened. And I wondered what happened. With Robert Conrad. With Robert Conrad.

Like, why did this happen? Why were we not talking to each other for 40 years? But, but you weren't really friends before you just did the battle of the network stars together. And you felt that somehow or another in your brain that it was a resentment, a deep seated resentment over, over the,

you beating him in a race. I think, yeah, I think he thought I kind of sucker punched him and, and he carried that with him for a race. I think, yeah. I think he thought I kind of sucker punched him. And he carried that with him for 40 years. I think so because I met members of his family and there was always a little hesitancy, a little coldness like, you know, why'd you do that to dad, you know? Really? Yeah.

And I think it was because that was his thing to be a macho guy, to be, you know. Right. And he sort of fell right into that. Yeah. I felt like I wanted to patch that up. I didn't want that hanging. But in the piece, it didn't seem like it was really outstanding there. Like when you tried to connect with him around that, it was like not really the issue. Well, it wasn't the issue anymore.

Right. Because of his age. He hardly remembered anything. It was like an interview. Well, it wasn't an issue anymore because of his age. He hardly remembered anything. It was like an interview. It was competition with my peers, and I enjoyed that. So he wasn't really getting to the issue. My thing was, why did he blame me?

I didn't do anything. I was just there. But it's weird. Out of nowhere, you decide to sort of rehash this battle of the network stars. It was the first battle of the network stars. You were team captain for what, ABC? yes he was team captain for mbc telly savalas cbs the funny thing about reading that being 57 right is that all those people that were involved in that i remember when i was a little kid like what year was that 1976 right so i'm 13 years old so all like watching you, watching, you know, Welcome Back, Cotter, seeing, you know, Robert Conrad

on things, Telly Savalas, Kojak, my mother watched that. I had, it was almost a eulogy for another time in television. Yes. I mean, that's what it felt like also. It felt like, hey, I want to revisit that era. Yeah. Nobody really knows much about it, but the reality of what it was like to be a big television star when there was

three networks when that was it yeah and you talk about your relationship with Penny Marshall yeah for some reason I thought when it was three networks everybody knew each other you kind of knew a lot of people on your network so I knew most of those people that were on my team

who were they let's reel them off you want the statistics So I knew most of those people that were on my team. Yeah. Who were they? Let's reel them off. Let's reel them off. You want the statistics? No, I just want the people. I want to know what my relationship was with them. Okay.

Linda Carter. Sure. Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman. Yeah. Okay. Ron Howard. Sure.

Ron Howard before he was Ron Howard. And he was Ron Howard. He was on Happy Days, but he wasn't- He was on Happy Days, Ron Howard. The biggest director in the world now. Right. Right. So this was when he- He was on Happy Days, but he wasn't- He was on Happy Days, Ron Howard. The biggest director in the world, no. Right. Right. So this was when he- This was-

Richie Cunningham, Ron Howard. Richie Cunningham, post-OP days. Yeah. Got it. And then there was Hal Linden. Sure. Barney Miller. Barney Miller.

Just talking about Barney Miller the other day. What a great fucking show that was. Right. Huh? I love Barney Miller. Yeah. And- Did you know those other guys on Barney miller do you know landisberg sure yeah yeah funny guy right started the improv together in new york in new york yeah really yeah that's it because like i always thought

he was hilarious and then i was okay go ahead who else else? He would kill at the improv. He had these routines that he would just kill with. Yeah? What was his style? Because there's not a lot of him doing stand-up around. You know what I mean? In terms of footage. And I don't know if those are, I think he did those routines on the Carson show. But there was one I remember about.

His name was Ludwig Bay von Stuckmacher. An expert on music, baseball, and psychiatry. So it was a character. It was a character, yeah. It was like acting, acting basically. Yeah, yeah. And really cool. So these were the people.

And Telly Savalas was the other captain? Telly Savalas, I knew him because he had done a nightclub act in Vegas, and I was his opening comic. What year was that? I'd say 1974. Wow. He was that popular. So you really started before there were legit comedy clubs at all? Yes.

Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Brooklyn. And you got brothers and sisters? Oldest sister, about nine years older. Still around? Yeah. Nice. And very Jewish, little Jewish, middle Jewish?

My father was really religious. Yeah? He would go every Saturday. Every Saturday morning was a fight to get me to go to temple with him. Everybody has their son going. Why doesn't my son come? Come, let's go. Let's go.

Be a Jew. Come to shul. Be a Jew. It's what he said. It was a fight. Sometimes he'd win. Sometimes I'd win. And what was your aversion?

I just didn't like it. I didn't believe it. I just, you know, old man bowing. And I just didn't go. Once I started, you know, I was like 10, 11, everything was fine. Right. Then I started to think, and I said, you know, I don't believe this. But you got to bar mitzvah or no?

Yeah. Well, that was it. That was my, they didn't even bother me anymore. That was it? Yeah. You did your bit? I did my thing. I put in 13 years, and then he left me alone.

But he had his own form of, you know, it's like we had separate dishes. The kosher thing. The kosher thing. You did. And then I had friends who had separate dishes, but they would eat out. Uh-huh.

And they would eat Chinese food. Right. And that was okay. Right. So there's like different versions of what's okay to eat yeah i think the last thing if you do the last thing is if you eat a pork chop right that's it that's then you're out that's not but you can eat pork and chinese food you can eat pork fried rice right but you can't eat a pork chop pork chop because you can't rationalize that like i didn't know it was in there

god says morris feld, he ate a pork chop. That's it. Yeah. I saw you eat the pork chop. You're out. Yeah. I didn't see it in the rice. Saw it on the plate with the pork chop.

So what was the original idea for you? It wasn't always to do comedy, right? What were you going to do? What was the plan? I wanted to be a baseball player. Oh, really? Could you play? Yeah, it was good.

Yeah? the plan? I wanted to be a baseball player. Oh, really? Could you play? Yeah, it was good. Yeah? I was like, in high school, I was small, and I was okay, but I wasn't really that good. But when I became like 16, 17, I started to grow, and I became a really good baseball player.

And I tried out for a couple minor league teams. Yeah. And I didn't make it. I almost made it one year. Yeah. In Amarillo, Texas. You went to Texas? I went to Texas. It was a Yankee form. I think it it one year. Yeah. In Amarillo, Texas. You went to Texas? I went to Texas. It was a Yankee farm. I think it was the Gold Sox.

Uh-huh. It was a Yankee farm team at that time. Yeah. And I made, I think, the last cut. And then hung around in Texas. Because they said, hang around for a little while. Maybe someone will drop out. Maybe we can use you.

And I went to a few strip clubs with these guys that were also hanging around. But they were from New York? No. From all over. From Texas? From Texas. Oh, yeah? And I saw comedians.

You know, strip clubs were different than where it was like a show. Right. Like it was a burlesque show in a way. Right? They had the comedian emcee and a little band, a little combo. Right. A band. And each girl had like a theme.

Oh, really? You know, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mermaid. Mermaid. Something like that. Right, a little combo. Right. A band and each girl had like a theme. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mermaid. Mermaid. Something like that. Right, right. Waitress. Right. And they wouldn't take all their clothes off. They had pasties on, right? Pasties and G-string. Yeah. But it was a comedian and the comedian would do

like these jokes and we went back to the same clubs a few times and the comedians were always doing the same jokes. And I started thinking, I think it was like in 1962 and I started thinking, well, you know, maybe I can do that. Did you remember the comic? Robert Jay. Oh, really?

Was the comic in Houston in 1962. Really? Yeah. Was he a guy? I mean, was he a national act? No. No. But you know.

These were guys that just, there was a whole breed of comedians that just did this. They might have been ex-Berlets comics. Yeah. And they got into stand-up and they got, you know. Robert Jay. Yeah. What was the shtick? Just old jokes?

Old jokes. Yeah. Just old dirty jokes. Right. One right after the other. Yeah. And you had to fill in time. Uh dirty jokes. Right. One right after the other. Yeah. And you had to fill in time. Uh-huh.

And I actually worked in strip clubs. Really? Later. Not right away. So you think the seed was planted when you were there to try out for a minor league team. You went to a strip club. You saw Robert Jay. And you thought, I could do that.

Yeah, exactly. I thought I could do that. But there was no real precedent for, I mean, who were you? I guess you had comic heroes. There were definitely comedians at that time. Yeah. But I wanted to be an actor. I never grew up, I want to be an actor or a baseball player.

I never grew up thinking I was going to be a comedian. Because there was no place to work then. You know, there was no comedy clubs. It didn't seem like a possible thing no most comedians i think were comedy writers yeah that got into stand-up or some musicians that got into stand-up they just saw what the art form was when they kept on watching it day after day but like when you were at that time like what was this 1962 like uh i mean there was television and you had there were definitely a a bunch of comedians that were on TV all the time.

Right? Right. But never hit me that I wanted to do that. And it must have seemed like also, like, it seemed like a set crew, didn't it? Back then there was like a dozen guys that were on all the time. Right. There was a dozen guys that were on all the time that had been on for, you know. Since you were a kid.

Yeah. And they were all from one show to the other. Right. From Sullivan, it's Sullivan show. Right. To. Did you have favorites? I liked Alan King.

Did you? I thought Alan King was like hip. Yeah. Well, that was his whole presentation. He was like, you know, it was like when the Jews moved to the island. Right. Like he was there to represent the middle class Jews. Yeah.

Right. Right. And he was different than the older. Right, right. He was the next generation. Half his act wasn't in Yiddish. Right. He wasn't Myron Cohen.

Right. Yeah. Myron Cohen, he was just... Do you remember Myron Cohen? Sure, I remember Myron Cohen. Really? Yeah, I played craps with Myron Cohen. Shot craps with Myron Cohen.

You did? Where? Think of the MGM Grand. He was a real crap shooter. Oh, really? He was around that long for that hotel? Yeah. Was he playing?

I don't know if he was working there. I think I was working there, and he was just there. In Vegas. In Vegas. And I went up and said hello to him. Hello, how are you? I've seen you. I said, hi, Myron.

How you doing? Losing, as usual. He's a big gambler. Yeah. But so Alan King, though, he seems like he must have been not that. I mean, he must have been pretty young when you were seeing him then. But what about some of the older guys? I mean, you seem to have a similarity in style to groucho

i mean were they important to you yeah i love groucho i i love the movies but i also love the his television show right right right my father liked his show so he used to watch you bet your life is that your life right well he was so quick on that i mean that was really where you saw the organic personality of his mind yes yeah yeah and. Yeah. And I remember he took over The Tonight Show. Yeah. For a week. From Johnny. From Johnny.

Yeah. You know, he's one of the interim hosts. Right. Just like now they have interim hosts on Jeopardy. Yeah. So it was between Jack Parr and- Johnny Carson. And who was Steve Allen before Jack Parr?

He was before Jack Parr. Jack Parr was good, wasn't he? Jack Parr was good, yeah. He was a really good interviewer, and he was kind of controversial jack bar was good wasn't he jack bar was good yeah he was a really good interviewer and he was kind of controversial he would do little things that it was odd yeah yeah and so he got fired he got fired and groucho and groucho was one of the interim hosts oh who else was do you remember i don't remember but groucho wasn't that great at that point no so 1962 and they expected him to be as funny as he was in You Bet Your Life, but he wasn't. Because he had to talk to people.

You Bet Your Life, he was talking to civilians. He was talking to civilians, but the material was written. Right, right, right. A lot of it was prepared, and then they could edit, and there was no edit on The Tonight Show. Right. So it wasn't his thing at that point did you get to meet groucho yeah yeah i i got to meet him first time i met him was in nate and al's and i had just been on the merv griffin show and he had seen me and he was

sitting with some guy look like the guy looked like a writer yeah and he said this is uh this is gene caplan i saw him last night on moe griffin yeah and he was very funny i said thank you gratso it's just an honor for you to say that but my name is gabe caplan he said i'm gonna call you gene i said okay i'm gonna call you zeppo did he laugh yeah he laughed and then uh he came to welcome back cotter Cotter when we were taping a show. And I used to do these jokes at the beginning and the end of the show. And I thought it would be a great idea if I told the last joke to him if he was sitting outside the school on a bench. Like we were waiting for a bus or something.

And I said, sir, as long as we're waiting for the bus together, I'd like to tell you about my uncle. the bus together i'd like to tell you about my uncle and then i tell you the joke and you turn around and you say uh well that's the worst joke i ever heard in my life and he says all right what joke are you going to tell me and i told him the joke he said that is the worst joke i ever heard but aaron fleming was with him and she wouldn't let him do it so he asked for like uh you know ten thousand dollars for him to do the appearance on the show yeah over the credits over the credits right oh jesus but that would have been priceless yeah it would have been great to have yeah so after you get back from texas you realize what baseball's not for you i yeah i didn't

well i didn't realize yet but i i had interest in comedy. And this is like between the Mrs. Maisel era and before the Improv Open. Right. So there was no place to work. There was a place called the Comedy Workshop. Have you ever heard of that? And where was that? That was like on 44th Street. Okay.

There was one in Texas years later, but the Comedy Workshop. Never heard of it, huh? No, I don't know that one. I've talked to a lot of people. Maybe someone mentioned it. What was the story there? It was run by this guy whose name was George Q. Lewis. Yeah.

And he was a publicist. He might have been a teacher. Yeah. Some sort of a college professor. And he liked to do humor seminars. And he would also send out press releases. And he ran this place called the Comedy Workshop. Yeah.

Like two nights a week, and comedians would go there, and you'd get on stage. Yeah. And then after you got on stage, it wasn't a hostile environment. It was like people would try and tell you, give you pointers. Sure. The only problem was that nobody in the Comedy Workshop ever worked. Right. You know, it was like

guys that wanted to be comedians, except Ron Carey. Ron Carey, right, yeah. Now you talk about Jack Pa, this is interesting because Ron Carey had been on the Jack Pa show. Yeah. And he did great. The little guy. Little guy, you know, from Bonnie Miller. Right. And he did great. He was

so funny. Yeah. And he was really funny as a comic. Yeah. And then he went back on about two months later and he did great he was so funny yeah and he was really funny as a comic yeah and then he went back on about two months later and he bombed on the tonight show yeah

and it really fucked with his head you know he didn't know what to do or why he bombed the second time yeah

and he went into a depression uh huh and then he would go to the comedy workshop and he was a guy who was actually on Jack Parr show yeah a real working comedian who had done TV he was a guy who was actually on jack parsho yeah a real working

comedian who had done tv and was a hit and he became like the uh the guru the wizard the wizard of the comedy workshop um and then when i went in there i heard about it i went in there and he was he was really a nice guy he would yeah he be, we would go to the automat afterwards. Uh-huh. And then I was too scared to get up at the comedy workshop. Yeah. So there was another place called the Mid-Manhattan Club. Huh.

Which was a social club. People played cards there. They played games, marge on. And they had lectures. And once a week they'd have a talent show. Right. And comedians would just go up and they had the 60, 70 people in the audience. Yeah.

And they said, well, go to the Manhattan Club. And I went there, and it bombed. What kind of audience? West Side, 75% Jewish audience. This was their social club. And they just had social clubs where you'd go sit there and play cards? They had this one. But it's not a retirement thing, right?

No, it wasn't a retirement thing. It was people that lived in Upper West Side. And that's where they, community center. Community center. Wanted some place to go at night. You bombed, huh? I bombed. Terrible.

And I went back to the comedy workshop. Did you have bits? Yeah, I had one bit. One bit. I had a bit about. No backup. No backup. I had one five minute bit. it was like oh five minutes so

you're in if it's if it's bad you no way out no way out i had to do the whole bit and it was a bit about um overprotected 17 year old boy telling his mother he wasn't coming home for dinner and he bought a pair of black shoes and that was like a big deal in the 60s where you know some mothers would think well black shoes means you're a tough guy oh really yeah so so that was the whole sure everybody knew that yeah at that point now it sounds ridiculous but at that point black shoes black shoes was a big deal so uh i did it bombed and then i went back to the comedy workshop to say goodbye. You were done.

I was done. You were retiring. I was retiring. If I couldn't be a baseball player, I was going to look, my career was over. The black shoe bit. The black shoe bit tank, my number one bit. And then Ron Carey got up on stage and he said, hey, Gabe Kaplan, we all met you know he wants to be a comic and he bombed at the mid-manhattan club and let's get him up here and i did the black shoe baby yeah and it killed and i kept you got the got the sympathy intro i got the sympathy intro and the comedians

felt your empathy right and they laughed yeah and then i would get up at the comedy workshop and and they would laugh i I do new versions of the bit come up with some other jokes oh really you didn't you didn't just keep revising the black shoe bit I did oh yeah I did and then they would give me and they would you know they give you advice and must have been pretty tight after a few weeks it was yeah it was like uh it was tight and and Ron was always my cheerleader he would would applaud and laugh. Yeah. And then one time about, I guess, about four weeks later, I got up and I did a new bit and it went over really well when he wasn't laughing. And I said, how come you didn't laugh?

Yeah. He said, well, tonight you were really funny. You crossed it. You crossed it. Yeah. He didn't have to pretend anymore yeah I crossed the Rubicon yeah now he just

could be another comic going oh shit yeah right right right so that was that and then you got more comfortable I got more comfortable

but when but wasn't the Borscht Belt alive and well at that time yeah I mean you could go up there a lot of young comedians became social

directors and you'd go on stage uh and you mean you'd have to corral the old people or the jews into different activities and then different activities and you you kind of schmooze them and do the funny during the day but then you get a little stage time a little stage time exactly for opening for the main guy or what no you went over the main guy you just uh well you would open because you were the mc right all right yeah yeah so who are the other guys at the workshop there was any other guys we know i saw time i saw um willard and greco fred will and his partner oh really way back then yeah they got up and they did a bit there they came to just try it a bit there was one guy who worked in the subways. Yeah.

His name was Kenny Burke. Doing stand-up. Doing stand-up in the subway. Yeah. He'd go on the subway. And this is 62? 62, yeah. Wow.

And most of the people, there was one guy, his name was Dave Kent. Uh-huh. He was, his whole bit was that he was Superman's younger brother, Clark Kent's younger brother. And he looked a little like him, and he did a whole routine on that.

Yeah, that was the whole thing. That was it. That was Superman's younger brother. And then George K. Lewis would put out these press releases. And when I started to get real laughs, he said, the Humor Society of America has named Gabe Kaplan America's youngest comedian. How old were you? 18.

Oh, wow. So I showed it to my parents. Yeah. Look, I did it. Hey, you think I'm getting around with this? Here, look at this. So, you know, it gave some validity for what I was trying to do. So you were just getting out of high school?

No, I quit high school. Oh, you did? Yeah, Mr. Carter quit high school. No kidding. Yeah. Well, when did you do that? To do comedy? No. You just quit high school? I just quit high school. Oh, you did? Yeah, Mr. Carter quit high school. No kidding. Yeah. Well, when did you do that? To do comedy? No. You just quit high school?

I just quit high school. Why? I wasn't doing well. Yeah. I wanted to play baseball. Yeah. I wasn't on the baseball team in high school. I went to the coach.

He said, can you hit as good as Duke Schneider and field as good as Pee Wee Reese? Yeah. And I said, no. He said, oh, I can't use you. So what did your dad think about quitting high school? Hated it. Yeah. He hated it. He just didn't know what to do. He didn't know how to cope with it. Yeah. And I said, well, maybe I'll go back, you know, and he just really didn't know who to turn to. What did he do? Not much. Yeah. He was religious. He was a gambler. He was religious. he was religious he was a gambler he was religious he he would dabble in real estate where he'd go and he didn't have an office but he'd hang around and once in a while downtown

brooklyn and once in a while he'd make a deal and then they would fuck him out of the deal and he'd wind up getting something wow so he was just sort of like uh always hustling well always trying what was his gambling what did he like to do? Like to play cards. Oh, yeah. Like to bet on baseball. Yeah. So he had this two elements going where he was religious.

Yeah. And then he was also a gambler. So did he have, like, who was he booking? He had a bookie? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He would call up and he would say, this is glasses for Phil. And then he would give his, one time I called up and made bets for him. Yeah. But he yeah, yeah. He would call up and he would say, this is glasses for Phil. Yeah. And then he would give his, one time I called up and made bets for him.

Yeah. But he didn't know. And he won. And he didn't notice. I call it, this is glasses for Phil. Did you, were there shady characters around or he was once removed from that? No. No, he was just out of town.

Really removed from that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like a neighborhood bookie. He bet $5 on a baseball game. Right, right. Play numbers? No. No numbers?

No numbers. And what about your mom? I mean, who was working? She was working. Oh, she was the one. She was the rock. Yeah. She worked.

She was a beautician. Uh-huh. She went to work every day. Huh. All the family together. Were they yelling at each other all the time? Yeah. Get a job!

That was what you grew up with, huh? Yeah. The religious man. The man of God. The man of God. Get a job, man of God. Right. Enough with the shul.

Get a job. I think that was the basis of conservative Judaism. And the whole neighborhood knew. Yeah. Because this wasn't like the 30s when there was a depression. Everybody worked. It was a lower middle class neighborhood. And this wasn't like the 30s when there was a depression. Everybody worked. It was a lower middle class neighborhood. And this guy was just-

And this guy didn't work. He was just hanging around the real estate office. Hanging around once in a while. We'd go downtown, hang around for a while, come back. Oh, my God. It was known. It was a known fact. And your sister was much older.

She was older. So she was gone already. Yeah, she got married when she was like 20. Oh, really? Got out. Got out. Got out. Escaped. So now you're 18, college, high school dropout, no baseball future.

No baseball future. Doing these no-pay stand-up gigs. So when do things start to turn? There was an agent called, his name was Irving Shonoff, and he booked these lower- class clubs in New England, mostly in New England, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine. Dinner clubs? No, mostly drink clubs.

Some of them were dinner clubs, but they usually had a comedian and a stripper or a comedian and a belly dancer. And he had this huge office in the Brill Building. Oh, yeah. And he had a big outer office and a little inner office to where he couldn't see the door. And when you walked in his office, he would scream, who's out there? And you'd have to tell him who's out there. Yeah, yeah.

And he finally got me a job at a place in Springfield, Massachusetts. Oh, way out there. Drive. So you drove. I drove, which was important. Yeah, you had to have a car. You had to drive the stripper or the belly dancer. Oh, so you had to take the headliner.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I started in a similar way, but it was comics. Oh, right. You got to take the other comics. These one-nighters. Yeah, the main guy. A lot of times you'd have to drive them because they'd be from out of town.

And when I was living in Boston where I started, that's how we started. It was like these one-nighters at little bars. People would sub. They'd have a comedy night. They'd sort of book a comedy night through these subcontractors. And a lot of times touring acts would come in. And if you were local, you'd go out. You'd drive them.

You'd do a half hour. They'd do 45. Then you'd get out. Well, I guess comics are a little less crazy than strippers so yeah sometimes yeah so but that's a long run from uh to springfield with a stripper yeah yeah they were long runs there was a few one time coming back girl was drunk and she grabbed the wheel and tried to kill herself and kill me too. Really? Yeah.

Oh, my God. She was just really depressed. My life is not worth it. And then she kept on doing it. She kept grabbing the wheel drunk? Yeah. Yeah. So I had to stop and have her arrested.

Really? Yeah. Oh, my God. She was going to kill us. And what happened to her? She's now my wife. Elizabeth? Well, we're...

We've been married for 25... It's 46 years now. But usually they were just quiet. Usually they didn't say anything. Did you ever get in the... Did you have to watch the girls' back? I mean, did you ever have to protect them? No.

Oh, okay. No. Oh, okay. No. But then I actually worked in clubs, strip clubs, for like weeks. In the city? Not in the city, no. Like outside. This guy, Charnoff, would book you at strip clubs for weeks. For weeks. And other agents.

Then I got other agents, too. So that was the gig, huh? So you would go to one club, and so that's what they would turn over. They have the same girls, but they get new MCs or new girls all the time? Was there a two-way? No, new girls. No kidding. Girls, it was a week or two and the MC was the same.

Oh, wow. Okay. And that's why they called you the MC, that comic. So were you getting chops? Were you doing the thing? I mean, what was it like working at those places could you get laughs sometimes you know the uh audience was pretty good first show was pretty good yeah second show was you know i was always working uh on material trying to pretend that you got like bachelor parties and crazy people and yeah you

got a few of those yeah and then you get mixed crowds on the weekend you get men and women on the weekend uh-huh and generally most places uh-huh during the week was mostly guys uh-huh but there are too many comedians around who experienced that right no i know who worked in that form i think you're the first one i've really talked to that actually had extensive experience in being booked at those places yeah were there other guys doing it um prior did it oh yeah you know that's that was what we had to talk about. Oh, really? Yeah, because he had done that.

And he was at the Cafe Royale around 63, 64. Oh, you hung out with him? Not really, but we talked to him at the Cafe Royale. Yeah. And that's what we would talk about. Manny Roth was around. Manny Roth was his manager. His manager, yeah.

Because he related to that. Yeah. He knew nobody else who had done that. No kidding. None of the New York comics had done that. Right. How many girls were there? How many girls?

I said three. You fuck any? You fuck any? Did you? Once in a while. So when does it become, like, so the cafe was started doing comedy when well they would have um i think nights when comics could get up and and perform you know he would probably was the comic yeah richie havens was working there yeah so i remember prior richie

havens and then they would let comics get up occasionally, and I don't think every night. Yeah. And then there's a place right across the street, the Champagne Gallery. Uh-huh. Did we hear that? No, I don't know that one. That was like in the basement, and it was a really plush type of thing with a piano player.

Uh-huh. And then you would have to tell a piano player to take a break. Uh-huh. And you would go up, and then after a while, when the comics found out about it, the piano player was never playing. He'd play one song, and the comic would go up and say, hey, can I do something? The Cafe Wall was later bought by Manny Dorman, who owns the Comedy Cellar, that whole building. So they had music there. I don't know if it was actually the original location of the Cafe Wall, but it's still around.

Yeah, it's music there. I don't know if it was actually the original location of the Cafe Gua, but it's still around. Yeah, it's still there. So when do you start getting more high-profile gigs in the city? Did you do the stripper thing for years? I did the stripper thing probably until like 1967, and I would go back to the improv in between. When did the improv open? I think in 63. Really? I remember the improv opening between when did the improv open i think it's 63 really so so i remember the improv opening bud and silver yeah in 19 i would say 63 because when i first went there

it wasn't a comedy club it's like a variety show right or no it was well singers and comics not a variety show i mean people would just get up as many singers as comics but what they did have was actual improvs uh-huh people would get up and do improvs really jj barry richard prior robert klein there was a comedian dave astor uh-huh ron carrey improvs and that was like every night that's like before rodney came there was It was like after the theater, right? People would come hang out. Right. It started around midnight. And then all the guys would come from their gigs.

And they would do improvs. That must have been kind of amazing. Yeah, it was. It was great. I actually, when I started, that club was still around. Silver, in the settlement, she got that one. The original one. Right.

And it was sort of like, it wasn't that crowded anymore, but I got to work there quite a bit. It was one of the few clubs that would let me work, but it was a shell of its former self. But those pictures, it was always there. Like those old black and white pictures in the frames of Richard on stage and Robert, but very young, Rick Overton, and a couple others that I kind of knew from later.

But I didn't know what they were doing, but that was the deal. They just fuck around, huh? Well, that was in the really early years. I think that stopped and it started gradually to become a comedy club where the main thing was comedy. And still, you have an occasional singer, but it was improvs as i remember it and then rodney came dangerfield yeah and then he would do a long time every night when he so that was him when he started again when he started again before he got danger fields and before he did the the hook like

he was sort of a long-form guy right it was like the brunt of the joke, but it wasn't like, I got no respect. It wasn't one-liners, right? No, it wasn't one-liners. He would, I remember him in the bar saying, I got to have a hook. I got to have a hook. Jackie Vernon, you know.

Jackie Vernon's got a hook. You know, Jackie Vernon with the old guy. The slide machine. The slide. The slide machine. The vacation, right? Right. Yeah, yeah.

I love Jackie Vernon. Yeah, he was great. His whole thing was he would come out and say, to look at me, you'd never believe that I used to be a dull guy. Right. So there you go. And that was his hook. And then he did the slide machine, which is one of his routines.

But Rodney was very aware. And he knew Jackie Vernon. You know, there were comics back in the day, and Jackie Vernon got this hook. Yeah. This old guy, and he became a sensation. Yeah. So Rodney needed the hook. I loved Jackie Vernon when I was a little kid, and I saw it.

My parents took me to see him when I was 11 or 12 in New Mexico. I grew up in Albuquerque from Jersey, right? And he did the nightclub at the Hilton Hotel. And they let me in if I went with my parents. And I was thrilled. I saw...

But I just remember my sense of what show business was like. You're sitting up close. He's older then. He's sweating. And it's in this little club. And there was something terrifying about it,

but it was great. Yeah, he was the first guy that I think that came up with this hook concept oh yeah because he was just a comics comic you know he just worked and wasn't getting any more work yeah and then he paid somebody some comedy writer oh really and he said you got to get something to where i'm unique i have an. And the guy came up with that. The loser. The dull guy. The dull guy. And that was it. And the slideshow was huge.

I think he had a couple of different slideshow bits. Right? The vacation one. Yeah. This is a bear. Here's me and the bear. I took the picture. Here's me and the bear and my wife. I don't know who took the picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was funny, man.

He was funny. Yeah. And so Rodney, you just saw him. Because Rodney was so hard on himself, right? Yeah. You questioned that thing for a long time, for weeks and weeks. Is this working? Is this working?

Yeah, because he was out for a long time. He was selling siding with Joe Ansis. Yeah. And then I guess Joe Ansis was around, too? I met Joe Ansis one time I was working in Vegas. Yeah. And he introduced himself. Yeah.

And we hung out for, like, a week. He was there. With Rodney? No, no, no, no. He was there by himself. And we just talked, and he told me a lot of Lenny stories. Oh, yeah. I don't think so.

Did you ever see Lenny? No. He was working at the Go-Go, of course, on the Bitter End. Yeah. I think sometime in 64. Right. And I wanted to go, but I couldn't afford it. And then he moved out here.

Yeah. I don't know if he ever worked again after that. Huh. I think he died in 66. 66. Yeah. So you're doing spots at the improv then? Or are you just hanging out?

No, I'm hanging out. I didn't have the kind of material. I had this material that I'd been doing, a combination of strip clubs and these weekend jobs in New England. I just didn't have the right material. Were you just getting by doing old jokes? Yeah, doing mostly old jokes, like the jokes that became the uncle jokes on Cotter.

Those were jokes that I had done for years in clubs. And then I finally, I guess late 60s, started to write material that I was happy with. And it was kind of cutting edge material. And then I started to really do good. Then I started to work at the improv and i did very well at the improv and i did uh college tours i did a tour with dave mason and had all this new material late 60s late 60s uh-huh uh i had one bit of howard cosell broadcasting the crucifixion uh-huh which really rubbed people the wrong way.

Good, though. That's good, right? You're doing your Lenny bit. Yeah. I did a Cosell impression. I said, well, what's going to be the ultimate Cosell impression? Right, right. And I did this.

That's good. But it got some really bad reactions. Sure, of course. Making fun of Jesus. It wasn't really making fun, but it was just... Trivializing. It was the event. Yeah, trivializing the event.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the improv, somebody threw a coffee cup at me, splattered it all. I opened for the Righteous Brothers. Anyone go, Jew? You know, it wasn't too much of that, although I expected that, but I didn't really get too much of that. Just generally people being offended at the concept of doing that in that time, in that era. When you could still offend. Yeah.

Well, that's back. I think people would be offended today. Sure. It's back. It's different. But I mean, there was definitely a line then that was throughout the culture. Yeah. Now it's in pockets.

There's less of a line with religion. Right. You know, it seems you can always kind of, it's not hackneyed, but it's like, I mean, I did a pretty profane joke about Jesus coming back in my last special. And I think it still upsets people, the believers. But I think they've gotten used to it a bit.

Yeah, they've gotten used to it, but they don't like it. And if they have the license to say something, if the opportunity— Sure. Because they just don't see it as humor. They see it as an offense. An attack, yeah. An attack. So now that was the gig, though, right?

Opening for musical acts. And there still wasn't a lot of money in club work in the city, right? You just worked out. No. Well, now that I got the college deal and I worked in coffee houses, I did a whole string of coffee. It was a place called The Flick in Miami that I did a lot. There's a place called The Bistro in Atlanta.

The whole coffee house circuit what was that like uh uh pre-hippie kind of beat nicky or what what was yeah well it was yeah it wasn't like old jews no no no there was no old jews old jews weren't allowed yeah just young jews young jews smoking yeah the flick huh the flick it was like all i worked with joni mitchell one week oh wow okay you know so all the so you're kind of latching on to the counterculture uh entertainment and the material that i was doing at the time was uh was good in those clubs they liked it that's great most of the time yeah you know still people could get upset but you're pushing the envelope a little bit i was pushing the envelope. I decided, hey,

you know, this is what I want to do. And then I did my first shot on The Tonight Show. I auditioned for The Tonight Show. In New York? Yes. Before it moved out here? No, it moved out here, but they used to go back to New York. To book? No, for like a couple of weeks, twice a year. Yeah. Like Carson still had an affinity for New York. Right. He had been in New York for a long time. Yeah. And he wanted to go back.

Yeah. Go to some of his old hangouts and spend some time with some of the people. So he would have them come back to New York. And they had moved out already. So I think this was a 72. Yeah. And the talent coordinator was Craig Tennis. Uh-huh.

And he had seen me at the Playboy Club. Where? New York? In New York. Uh-huh. And he'd seen me at the Ice House in Pasadena twice. So you were going back and forth? I was going back and forth.

Why? What were you doing out here? I was working at the Ice House. Oh, so they fly you out? Yeah. Yeah, man. No, they wouldn't fly me out. But you'd go work for a week

or two yeah 72 the ice house was around huh yeah so that was one of the oldest ones out here yeah nice there was always a great audience at the ice house it's still like that it's a very hot room yeah you can't even explain it no it's a heart to bomb at the ice exactly yeah it was like that in 72 yeah always wow um and i did a great set, and this guy from The Tonight Show, I got it made. And I did, though, what I thought would be right for television. I had some material that I wouldn't do. That was selling the crucifixion? No, that wasn't going to do it.

So then he didn't like me. And then he came into the improv, and I was going on, and they said, Craig Tennant's this year to see somebody else. And I said, fuck it. I'm just going to do my Go Sell the Crucifixion and all my other material. And I did it. He came up to me after the show.

He said, can you do the Tonight Show Thursday? I said, I can't do any of this stuff. He said, I don't care what you do. You got through. The fuck you worked yeah and but you and nate you knew what you needed to do he didn't he didn't he didn't go over your set no he said what are you going to do and i said i'm going to do this routine about old people on the dating game for old people yeah it was a routine, the geriatric dating game. Uh-huh. And he said, fine. Yeah.

Yeah, I went over it with him, and he said, yeah, it's fine. Okay. And that routine was, Mike Douglas didn't want me to do that on his show because he had a lot of old people that watched him. Yeah. Yeah. So you did it? Killed? I did it great.

Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Great. Johnny liked it? Johnny really liked it. And then they had me come out. And the good thing that a lot of comedians, see, I just couldn't get on television. I was a little lazy.

I was happy working as a comic. Yeah. I was doing Playboy clubs. I was doing the coffee houses. I was doing the combination of both. And it was a great life. Making money. I was making money. I was doing what combination of both and it was a great life making money i was making money i was doing what i wanted to do so i i didn't really push the tv thing yeah when i did

get on i had all this backlog of material right accidentally yeah just because i wasn't really that ambitious but you still but you were doing the job i was doing the job i was working i've been working for like by 72 it's 10 years already so i had a bunch of stuff i had a bunch of shit that i could do yeah i had like six seven routines that i could do and uh when i finally got the opportunity then i wasn't gonna bomb my second or third time right well they could well back then they'd ask you back pretty quickly right yeah i sit back like in two months probably. And then the first routine was the old dating game. And then I had this Ed Sullivan routine about Ed Sullivan saying

what he wanted to say, having a few drinks before his final show and saying what he really wanted to say all the years after 20 something years. Johnny liked that one? Loved it. And I had polished that routine for five years. I'd been doing that routine. Right, right. So it was ready to go. Yeah. And then I had other routines. And then I also had this stuff to talk about the kids I grew up with.

Right. Which became Welcome Back, Cotter. So I had all this material. And just accidentally, it just worked out great. Your lack of ambition helped you. Yeah, right. Because everybody was, what am i gonna get on tv what am i gonna get on tv and then they had the panic about the second set but you had a you

know you had an hour under your belt that was good stuff and it was uh polished yeah it was polished from working i think i kind of remember you doing ed sullivan did you do it on cotter sometimes no maybe no but i did it all over. I even did it on the Emmy Awards. Oh, okay. I did a stand-up on the Emmy Awards doing Ed Sullivan. Okay, yeah, yeah. I remember you doing it. Yeah.

Seeing it somewhere in my past. Yeah. I did a lot. So you did the Tonight Show how many times? No idea. I would say at least 20. Oh, really? Yeah.

Before you got caught? Yeah. Before you got Cotter? Yeah. Wow. Not 20 times before I got Cotter. I did the first one in 72. Cotter was 75, so I probably had done it 10 times. So how did that, and that must have brought you more tickets. I mean, you must have built a following from the Tonight Show, right?

Yeah. You could sell out the club or whatever. Yeah, everything was different. Yeah, after that. After the first Tonight Show, right? Yeah. You could sell out the club or wherever. Oh, yeah. Everything was different. Yeah. After that. After the first Tonight Show, everything was different. Really? People would come.

I think I was working at a club in Miami, and I was used to getting 30, 40 people. The place is sold out. Yeah. One appearance. Right. That was the Johnny Carson show. Well, that was the three network thing, buddy. Right.

You know? Everybody watched the Tonight Show. That's right. So then you're a big comedy star. Yeah. You're a headliner. Yeah. Making money, pulling people in.

I'm a headliner in coffee houses, and I stopped working the Playboy clubs, didn't do that anymore. Why? Because it was like a set fee that you would get, and you would set time. You'd do like 25, 30 minutes, and that was it. And I was getting better gigs. So when did you start playing Vegas then? I think my first gig in Vegas was opening for Ann-Margaret probably around 73. And Roger Smith would always get whoever was a hot young comedian on TV to open for her.

Yeah. And they were really the nicest people. Yeah. They made sure everybody who was in the show felt good. And they invite you into dressing room. They had a big dressing room with a big bar area. And everybody from the show would go there. Was she something else?

She was really a nice person. She was concerned about everybody being happy in the show. Yeah. Well, that's nice. And I opened for, I thought this was going to be the norm. Right. You know, when you open for somebody, you open for 12 more people, and they were all pretty nice,

but nobody wanted to make sure that you were happy. Who else did you open for? Diana Ross. Yeah. sure that you were happy oh yeah who else did you open for diana ross uh paul anka mac davis helen ready um one hotel different hotels all different hotels they and so you had a different agent now charnoff's gone right oh yeah it was william morris okay yeah charnoff was gone yeah who's out there was gone uh yeah oh and that was the gig that was a good gig right you open for these people what for a couple weeks for a run or yeah a couple weeks go to vegas go to tahoe open for a couple weeks then

is that when you start playing cards yeah pretty much well i started losing in vegas you know i was i'm making like five thousand dollars a week oh yeah and i'm losing it you know uh playing blackjack you're your father's son right and uh i said i'm gonna fall into this trap yeah and then i noticed that there was poker and i had always been a pretty good poker player. So I said, instead of playing blackjack, I'll try to play poker. And then I wound up winning. So it was great. And I didn't- And that was in the 70s.

You started playing. That was in the 70s, yeah. Not professional, but you were able to not lose all your money. Right. Yeah. If I broke out even, that was great. Yeah. When I worked with Telly Savalasas we shot craps a few times together but i didn't really want to yeah we just did he win no he would

take all these small chips and pile them up real high yeah like he was betting a lot yeah he loved to gamble he also loved to play poker the illusion of of the big spend. Right, right, right. So how do you get Cotter? What was the process back then? Did you pitch it? Did your agent put it together? By the time we get it in my generation, you go in, you meet somebody, and you pitch the idea. And they decide whether they want to do it or not. And then you hook up with writers that they have on contract.

Yeah, it was pretty similar. You hook up with writers that they have on contract. Yeah, it was pretty similar. I had talked to a few producers about a possible television show, but I never thought about doing it based on my act because no one had ever done that. Were you doing bits on TV shows? Oh, yeah. Were you doing roasts? Were you doing Dean Martin and whatever?

Yeah, I was doing Dean Martin. I did Muhammad Ali roast. I think that was the first roast. I was doing Dean Martin. I did Muhammad Ali roast. I think that was the first roast. He thought that I was this guy he was fighting in six months. I think Belgian guy, Koopman.

Yeah. Jean-Pierre Koopman. Ali thought it was you? Yeah, because the guy looked a little like me. Yeah. And he said, Koopman, what are you doing here? You ain't supposed to be here, Koopman. Get your ass out of here, Koopman. I said, I'm not Ko little like me. Yeah. And he said, Coopman, what are you doing here? You ain't supposed to be here, Coopman. Get your ass out of here, Coopman.

I said, I'm not Coopman. I'm a comedian. Yeah. You know, he gave me that look, you know, like he was mad, but he wasn't really mad. Yeah. But he just thought that they were pulling a surprise on him. Right. And that they're going to bring Coopman out. Oh, that's funny.

Yeah. So Dean was a nice guy or no? Yeah. Pretty much. Hard to know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's what i heard yeah it was like uh you know i got a feeling that there was a really nice guy in there yeah that this was his act and he did it and everything was so easy they structured things so he didn't have to do any work

he just went out there and read the cards were there comics that you were friends with yeah i i One of the things I did before this happened, before I got on TV, I wrote a lot of material for David Frye. I don't know if you remember him. He was an impressionist. He did the political impressions. Right, right. Yeah. And I wrote a lot of his material and wrote a couple of comedy albums for him. And you were friends with him. Who else came up with you? Who were your contemporaries? Brenner?

Brenner was a little after me. Right. I was really early. Yeah, yeah. Brenner, I think, was a few years after me. Klein was coming into it? Klein was about the same time. Yeah.

Then he started doing improv and working in theater. Yeah. But I saw him at the Cafe Wall probably like really 1963 get up. And I think he had just graduated. Yale? Yeah, and he was doing. Funny? Yeah, he was always funny.

Yeah. He was always really a step above the kind of comedy that was happening at that point. You see Woody Allen? I saw him not doing stand-up oh no but i saw him at uh bitter end a lot he would go there for the talent shows sometimes and he would be encouraging to comedians oh yeah uh but my mother wrote him a letter huh because he was like the main comic on tv and she said my son wants to be a comedian. Can you help out? And he wrote back a letter.

Oh, did he? He said, I'm just Kaplan. I can't meet your son, but I want to encourage him if he thinks he's got to try it and see if he can succeed at it. And don't discourage him. Let him try his thing. And then I wrote Woody Allen's mother a letter. But he actually answered.

He actually answered. Did you ever meet Frank Sinatra? Yeah. Yeah. He worked at Caesar's Palace for a while. Yeah. And I never actually met him. And he was playing Baccarat.

And I went up to him and said, how are you doing? He had the whole table by himself. Yeah. I said, how you doing? He had the whole table by himself. Yeah. I said, how you doing? He said, I'm losing. Everyone's losing

in these stories. Right, nobody wins. And he said, plus this is my last night here. I'm looking for a new job. It was his last night at Caesar's Palace.

Yeah. I said, I could just get you a weekend at the Club 802 in Brooklyn. He said, well, let me know about that. You know, if I could. I think that was the only Club 802 in Brooklyn. And he said, well, let me know about that.

I think that was the only time I ever met him. He knew you from... Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. They let me approach the table because they knew who I was. Otherwise, you couldn't get close to him. So you go in with Cotter. How does that work?

Well, the producer, Alan Sachs of Chico and the Man saw me at the comedy store. So you were at the store when you were out here early on, 73? At the beginning? Yeah, at the beginning. Well, I moved here. Tonight Show came back to Los Angeles and I moved

here to do my second one. In 71? Like late 72, early 73. So you were at the store at the beginning? Yeah. Were you there before Mitzi took it over? Yes. No kidding. I was there, I think, two weeks into it. I was sitting with Sammy and Rudy DeLuca, and Sammy was not sure if it was going to work. And it was just that front room? Just the front room. And I would go up until Cotter got on the air. I didn't go to that much after that, but for those three years, I was there a lot. Even after Mitzi took over?

Yeah. Oh, so you got along with her. Yeah. Well, I was already doing well. You know, I was on a tonight show. So she didn't have much effect on you. She didn't have much effect. Yeah.

She didn't try to. You know, I gave one. Yeah, yeah. You're going to go on tonight? Yeah. So it was on it tonight. So she didn't have much effect on you. She didn't have much effect. Yeah. She didn't try to. You know, I gave one. Yeah, yeah. You're going to go on tonight? Yeah. So it was kind of easy. I don't know. She couldn't fuck with you?

No. Because you were a made guy? No, I was a made guy. Yeah. I got my button already. So you're telling me this is the first time they built a show sort of specifically around an act. Is that what you're saying? That's what I'm telling you that's what i think yeah alan came up and he said you know we want to do a show yeah and then we started talking about it yeah i said those guys you talk about in your act they're

really funny yeah and the first concept was these guys are like we're all buddies in high school and they're the group of guys that never grew up right that's still they're like 27 28 they still all live at home yeah and they still hang out together right and they're still looking for girls and they still nothing's ever and there was barbarino horse shack i've seen and it's still the same crew and we couldn't figure out where the the sets would be where did they hang out together right right right and then just came up with the concept well what if they're still in high school and instead of me being their contemporary um the teacher yeah and that and that seemed to work well and we took it to the network and they said write a treatment

i wrote a treatment yeah and then uh they bought it and they had someone else write the pilot based on the treatment so you had production credit, creative by credit the whole time. Created by credit, right. Yeah. And that was that, huh? That was that. But I almost got kicked off the show. Why?

Before it even started? Because Comac was a producer. He was kind of a controlling guy, and we didn't really get along that well. He tried to get involved in people's lives, and he wanted to be the guru. Which guy is this? James Comack. He was the producer?

He was the producer. I was kind of independent, and the network had bought the show, and we were doing the pilot, and I didn't know it at the time, but we did a run-through like a week before it was taped, and they had a whole list of guys to replace me no kidding if i didn't knock it out of the park in that run through yeah and the run through went really great and then we were stuck together for like three four years yeah

all of you yeah did you enjoy it i enjoyed it i love i mean i loved working. It was kind of cathartic. This is my life. These are people that I grew up with, forms of them, not exactly, but they were forms of them and some things that happened to me, some of the people on the show were actual names of people that I knew. And I wanted to do more of that these guys were the best of friends and they had all different ethnic backgrounds. And I want to have one show where a couple of black kids go up to Freddie Washington and say, how come your best friends are white? Yeah.

But he didn't want to do any of that. So it was a combination of give and take about what he wanted and what I wanted. Comstock or whatever his name is? Comstock, yeah. Yeah. Comstock Lode. Yeah. Is that his name?

Comack. Comack. Yeah. So we sort of- Navigated it. Navigated it. Like I think all television shows do. Did the guys that these characters were based on ever, did you tell them or they knew?

Oh, yeah. They knew. They all knew. And we got together one time in New York, like three of us. I think only one of them is still alive. Oh, right now, yeah. And that was Travolta's first gig, right? His first major gig.

He had done a couple of commercials, and I think he'd been on a couple of small parts of movies. That was his first major thing. Vinnie Barbarino. Vinnie Barbarino. Vinnie Barbarino. Yeah. This is my place and these are my people. I'm Vinnie Barbarino.

And Horseshack and Epstein and Washington. Was that? Washington. Yeah. I remember all of them. The Sweathogs, right? The Sweathogs. Yeah. Like, I remember from my childhood, I remember all of them. The sweat hogs, right? The sweat hogs. Yeah.

Like, I remember from my childhood, I remember you. I remember, like, it's weird that they, like, that was what was interesting, really, as I started, when we started talking about it. Like, when I read that article, it was, like, deeply ingrained stuff. Yeah. Because I'm, I guess I'm, like, 20 years younger than you. So, you know, I'm seeing that when I'm, you know, in elementary school and then entering junior high it was a big show yeah i think uh it's sort of and not only here but in all over the world everybody knew someone like that in their school yeah it was a common experience right yeah barbara you know the guy was good looking and uh you know an epstein a tough guy everybody

sort of related to it. But you guys really thought of the angle, the shtick of each one. Barbarino was the sort of cocky kind of guy, right? And then Horschak was the desperate kind of guy. Yeah. And Epstein was always late, right? And, you know, borderline. The notes.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Signed to Epstein's mother. Was that the bit? Yeah. Yeah. Signed Epstein's mother. Was that the bit?

Yeah. Please excuse Juan from coming late today. I had something urgent he had to do for me. Signed Epstein's mother. Yeah, right. And he would mouth along to a note as I was reading it. What happened to that guy? Died. Oh, did he?

Yeah, young, like 60 years old. And Horschak too, right And Horschak, too, right? Horschak died, too. And Marsha died, Marsha Strassman. She died a few years ago. Yeah. And Travolta plows on. Travolta keeps going.

Keeps going. Yeah. Did you ever talk to him? Not too often. We got along really well when we did the show. He's a funny guy to work with. He's really funny, to work with. Yeah. He's really funny, but just haven't kept in touch that much. I know.

It's like things get weird, right? You get older, and it's like when you do shows, because I've done a couple, it's like everyone goes the wrong way. It's like a theater production, even if it goes on forever. It's like anything. I mean, if you work in an office with six people, people won't ask you 20 years later, hey, you talk to other people you work with? Well, sometimes you're friends with them.

You don't know. Sometimes. Sometimes you have one person that you're friends with. You're still friends with the guy who wrote it with you? Alan Sachs? Yeah, Sachs. Yeah, we talk every once in a while. I see Larry Jacobs who played Freddie Washington.

We still see each other. Oh, yeah? That's good. That's good. That's nice. So you do that for, what, four years? how many did you do how many episodes uh hundred did about 100 i did three years i was on like um maybe four or five shows in the last season komak took over pushed you out yeah and he had uh like marsha was in the school as a teacher, he brought in Della Reese as a teacher.

Right. It didn't make any sense. It was like Carter in the Twilight Zone. Did it hurt your feelings? Yeah. It was my show, my life, you know, so it did hurt my feelings. So that relationship got worse. Well, you know, it was always bad.

Yeah. So it didn't get any worse. He just was able, you know, the rating bad yeah so it didn't get any worse he just was able you know the rating slipped by the third season and i always thought hey you know these guys are they were 20 something to begin with when we started the show yeah so now how far are you going to push this yeah right we need new kids or something we need new kids or maybe move them to a junior college and i i become a teacher junior college i walk in and who's there? Right, right. You know, so let's do something.

We can't have them, you know, at 27 years old, we can't have them playing at 16 anymore. And they didn't agree. They just wanted to milk it for all it was worth. Ah, that's sad. So when that ended, I mean, did you decide at some point you were done with show business? Kind of. I wasn't really getting any offers, any good offers. After Cotter.

Well, after Cotter, I was still headlining in Vegas. I was still doing that. And then Nothing Good was coming along, and I didn't want to do whatever was offered me. So I sort of did other things. I got involved in financial things and gambling, playing a lot of poker, being a poker announcer. But you were a world champion, weren't you? No.

Oh. But thanks. I thought you were like the King Poopah, the poker people. I'm like, you know, I came in second once in the championship. But you did all right. You were making money? Yeah, I was making money. Yeah.

And done all right gambling. Yeah. But more in investing. And I didn't have the, I guess I'd done so much comedy at such a young age that I didn't really have a real need to continue to do it. And also, like, you know, I don't know. There was a time. It's a generational thing, you know. Ultimately, your audience is going to be your age after a certain point if they still want to come see you.

It's hard to remain relevant so it would be difficult to kind of like you know continue to you like me i guess you could update your act but it's still going to be this vegas thing and how could you not get tired of it i think eventually yeah you're going to get tired of it uh and i i still worked in vegas occasionally but you loved it yeah i love doing comedy and i wanted, I tried to do it again, like about 20 years ago. I went to New York. Yeah. Like I first started, I went down to the Comedy Cellar.

And, you know. So, like my age, like 57, 58? Yeah, I was your age. Yeah. I came up with a couple of good bits. How'd it go? It went good. Yeah?

Except nobody wanted me. I did the Montreal Comedy Festival. Yeah? I did really good there. 20 years ago. 20 years ago. The resurgence. He's back.

That's what I thought. Gabe is back. That's what I thought. Yeah. But nobody gave a shit. Really? That's sad. Yeah.

They treated you like a nostalgia act? Not a nostalgia act, but I guess the people who booked the shows, they weren't interested in having me on the show. It was yesterday's news. And I didn't really go out and push. I didn't get an agent and try to get on. I thought just like before someone was going to say, hey, we want you back.

Please come back. Yeah, come on. We want you back. And you didn't stay engaged with it like Richard, where you maintained a sort of audience like Richard Lewis. No. Who just kept going. You were sort of gone for a while.

Yeah, I was gone and didn't seem like anybody wanted me back. So I said, okay. Play cards. Yeah, play cards. I'll do other things. And you did all right. You're all right. Make a nice living. Oh, good. I'm all right. That's cards. Yeah, I'll play cards. I'll do other things. And you did all right. You're all right. Make a nice living.

Oh, good. I'm all right. That's good. Yeah. But I still have that need, you know, like why I wrote this article. Yeah. And I've written a movie about, you know, my family, my father not working, and coming of age in the 1950s with some gambling, hidden gambling.

Yeah. So I've written a movie like that. So like in the last year, you know, since COVID, I sat down, I started to write again. And it felt really good writing that article, going over those memories, what happened. And it felt really good going to see Robert Conrad and talking it out. And sort of saying, okay, why did this happen to us? Why were we enemies? It's interesting, though, because it still seems to me that,

even after talking to you and then talking about this article again, that a lot of that was in your head. Could be. You know what I mean? He was nice to you. He was nice to me, yeah. But I do that all the time where I'm like, you know, that guy. And then you see him, and they're like, you know, that guy, he's going to.

And then you see him, they're like, what are you talking about? Yeah. I don't, yeah. That's sort of like an OCD process where your neurotransmitters make you feel the worst thing is everyone feels the worst. Well, everyone's thinking about you. No one's thinking about you. No one cares. I don't know if no one cares, but, you know.

No, they care about their own shit. Of course, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, but I really did get locked into that, you know, that nostalgia of that, you know, that the different media landscape that, you know, you were part of this thing that it's just, it's gone. It's all gone, you know. And my buddy Tom Sharpling, you know, him and I were talking about Rickles the other night. You can go on YouTube and watch an entire – you can watch all of Rickles' Letterman appearances. Or you can watch all of somebody's – someone makes it, puts it all together.

It's kind of fascinating just how great and how big the personalities were in your day. And now it's hard to lock on to anybody. Yeah. It's a new era. It's, you know, people are... Everything's very temporary. Everything changes. Fleeting. Things change.

I guess so. There's too much. I worked at... I went to this casino in Mississippi to do a promotional event where... For the poker? No, I also did speaking you know like or you know public speaking. Oh yeah. Where I do comedy you know. Like TED Talks? What? Like a

TED Talk? Yeah but not really a TED Talk. Yeah. I was the comedy like they would have a couple of political people like they have a convention for four days. Uh-huh. A few political people. Like, they have a convention for four days. They have a few political people. Oh, you do the comedy keynote? It was the comedy relief. Sometimes it was the keynote. So you'd write things for it specifically? Yes, write things specifically. And then have occupations that you never knew existed.

Yeah. You know, like, and find out about them. Yeah. And write stuff about them. Right. But I went to this casino in Mississippi and had a comedy club there. And they had like hundreds of pictures of every comedian. Yeah.

And I'm looking and I don't see my picture. It's like two comedians I never heard of. Yeah. And then I went to the poker room and they have like six characters and I'm one of the characters. Well, this is where my life is going. You're the poker guy. Yeah.

I can't make the top 200. Isn't that wild? Yeah. It's still at the Comedy Store, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I was just there.

I'll double check for you. That's good. All those pictures are still up in the doorway, in the back hall. Most of them are up. I still think you're in the front hallway. I'm still in the front hallway. I think so. I think so. I'll double check. Yeah, let me know. It was great talking to you, man. Great talking to you. I really enjoyed it.

Dave Kaplan. Real deal. That was a unique stand-up story in terms of how he started i had not had that conversation uh about the sort of doing comedy on the road on at one-nighters with strippers uh i that was a real real real treat and now guitar Thank you. guitar solo Boomer lives! Monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. They're in the room.

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