WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1232 - Danny Elfman

Episode Date: June 3, 2021

Danny Elfman did not set out to become one of the most prolific film composers in history. He was a distractible kid who couldn't focus on much of anything except music, loved jazz, loved Stravinsky, taught himself how to read, write and play music, and found himself as the frontman for the band Oingo Boingo for 16 years. But everything changed when a fan named Tim Burton came to Danny and asked if he would score a movie called Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. Danny and Marc talk about all of it, including Batman, The Nightmare Before Christmas, The Simpsons and his new solo album, which is his first in 37 years. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. How's it going? How are you feeling? Are you feeling all right?

Now, what happens now? What happens now? Do we go back to getting colds and flus and mild things that, I mean, it was kind of amazing. For a year, we didn't get nothing. Got nothing. No colds, no flus, no bugs, no stomach things. Just a lot of mental anxiety. I became very intimate with all the psychosomatic symptoms that stress and panic and terror can cause in your body on a day-to-day basis. I still kind of have some of it, man. I still kind of have some of it.

So I don't know where I left this, but I feel like I talked to you about it before. But the third watermelon, the watermelon, the melon of hope, the melon of hope turned out to be a good melon, turned out to be a solid melon. The color was not right, but the texture and the sweetness was on the fucking money. So thank you for your concern. Thank you for your prayers, your thoughts. It worked out. That third melon that I bought in a panic turned out to be the best melon. It was a nice place to arrive. It was like, all right, that was the full arc.

The bad melon, the override melon, what's in this one? Give it a few days. Sit with it. Look at it. Dream about it. Slice it up. Perfect perfect how often does that happen closure danny elfman is on the show today and uh it was exciting to talk to him um he is probably the most prolific film score composer we've ever had on the show. Maybe of all time, he's done scores for more than 100 movies. We'll talk about several of them, many of them, and also for TV shows, stage productions,

and concert halls. He was also in the art rock band Oingo Boingo. I'm on the outside. I'm on the outside. I'm on the outside now. This is where it all begins. On the outside looking in. He's got his first solo album in 37 years. It's coming out next week. That's why he's here. The only reason I know that song is because my buddy Damon in high school was into Oingo Boingo. None of us knew about Oingo Boingo. He had that one record and he would play it in the car,

the cassette tape all the time, and that's how I knew about Oingo Boingo, was from Damon. I wonder how Damon's doing. Does anyone know how Damon... Who's got eyes on Damon? Anyone got eyes on Damon Milet? Anybody? Damon Milet?

Please, could somebody get back to me about Damon? Thank you. Thank you very much. Been doing the comedy, been going at it, been hammering away. My tone's a little intense. It's a little dark. It's a little aggravated, but not too much. But it seems to be, it feels like my anger is not really that threatening or off-putting anymore. I must have been humbled enough by the big wheel of life to be cranky without being jarring. I've waited my whole life to be humbled this much by life

to be aggravated and still kind of fun. I can be pretty consistently funny on purpose. And that has been my life goal, folks. What do you do for a living? I'm pretty consistently funny on purpose. Most of the time, not funny. Engaging, not funny. Charismatic, perhaps, not funny.

Interesting, maybe. Compelling, sometimes. Perhaps not funny. Interesting. Maybe compelling. Sometimes funny when I want to be on purpose. I've got that skill now. I've got it. Occasionally, I think about guns. Do I need a gun? I've talked about this before. I don't know.

Is this an old guy thing? Is this an L.A. thing? is this an old guy thing is this an la thing is this a is this an end of the world thing yeah there's guns around do i need one and then what what do i get like i don't want a pistol i thought maybe a shotgun because if i if i have a shotgun and someone comes in to take me out i can be at the top of the stairs with my shotgun a pump shotgun just like put a, you know, with a shotgun, you're going to hit something, something you're going to get your, your, your odds are improved. But now I'm talking about taking a human life. Is that something I want to

do? All it can do is enable me to go down shooting. And then I started to think about it. Isn't that what it's always about? When you really think about old guys with guns, there's think about it, isn't that what it's always about? When you really think about old guys with guns, just think about who they are. Think about their life. Think about the deep sort of weird burning ember of rage at the core of their being, existentially speaking. How many fucking people really have their shit together enough to surrender to the inevitable with a certain amount of peace of mind? How many? Not many. How many people like know they're going to die and are okay with dying because they've lived life to their fullest and they understand as rational people that we as animals die

and that's the end of it. How many? Not many. How many people are out there with these fucking unresolved problems, with these chips on their shoulders, with these things they never did, with these poorly parented insides that are full of rage and hate and objectification and fucking snot and fucking fire.

What about those people, 60, 70, 80-year-olds, with just a fury inside them and a brain slowly going blank, being filled with exciting garbage meant to create more rage inside them, but for specific reasons. What about those people? Those people, most people, most men want to go down shooting. They don't care at what. They don't care at who. They don't have to have a reason. They just want to feel it. They just want to feel the firepower of going down shooting. How is that a solution for humans in this fucking world, this country? That's what it is. People who kill people then kill themselves that's how they make sense of it broken angry rage vessels how do we fix it huh how do we fix it see i can be funny

on purpose i told is that i just did that was hilarious i just decided out loud that I'm not getting a gun thanks for helping out what the fuck help me I'm not getting it I'm not getting a shotgun I'm not it can go nowhere good yeah and all of the above not getting it

A you kill somebody B you get killed C you kill yourself. B, you get killed. C, you kill yourself. D, all of the above. Don't eat it. Don't eat the barrel. See? See where the brain goes?

I'm not that guy. I'm not going to go out like that. Danny Elfman, his new album is called Big Mess. It's out next Friday, June 11th. You can get it wherever you get music. He's also bringing back the live Nightmare Before Christmas stage concert this year. That's on Friday, October 29th at Bank of California Stadium.

Tickets are on sale now. And also, there's a point during this talk where we're talking about David Bowie's Scary Monsters. And he says Adrian Ballou played guitar on it. And I'm pretty sure it's Robert Fripp. I should have stuck by my guns. I should have done the research in the moment. But he was pretty committed to Adrian Ballou played guitar on it, and I'm pretty sure it's Robert Fripp. I should have stuck by my guns. I should have done the research in the moment, but he was pretty committed to Adrian Ballou,

but I knew it was Fripp in my heart, and it is Fripp. It is. I'm not saying this to undermine Danny in any way. I just want to make sure that the information is out there for those of you who need to know that, because I remember being excited about it when I was in high school,

and Scary Monsters came out, and Robert Fripp was on it, because somebody had turned me on to Fripp by that point, need to know that because I remember being excited about it when I was in high school and scary monsters came out and Robert Fripp was on it because somebody had turned me on to Fripp by that point not King Crimson solo Fripp and I knew Fripp was an interesting guitar player and man is scary monsters a good album so there you go just selling a couple records for David Bowie on my way to uh to talking to Danny Elfman, which I will do now, right now. brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. All right, so now that we're on the mic, tell me about Pakistan. Oh man, it was great. I don't travel as much as I used to. But this was right during the, when the Taliban, you know, was before 2001. It was late 90s.

So what compelled you? Is that a vacation? Yeah, that's my idea of a vacation. And I had a neighbor that lived up the block. I lived in Topanga Canyon. Yeah. And we kind of bonded because both of us back in the 70s, 70, like when we were really young. Yeah.

I spent a year in West Africa and he spent this year, same age, traveling through Afghanistan. Yeah. And so we kind of took these similar but different trips. And I went back only once, but he started going back regularly. And now, you know, he became an importer of fabrics. Yeah, I mean, I can understand that journey, those guys who import, export. Well, he'd always said, you've got to come along with me. Because I was so interested.

And one year I said, you know what? I'm going to do it. Wow. And it was great. Yeah? Oh, my God. But it wasn't frightening? A little bit.

Yeah. But, you know, who gives a fuck? Yeah. It's just like, who gives a fuck? Yeah. It's just like, this is like, cool. And, you know, the Afghani people, I mean, the thing that I understand is that they're so warm. If you felt like you were in danger, you know, you could almost go to anybody's house and knock on it and say, I need your protection. Really? And they're really compelled to take you in.

Well, they've also been dealing with whatever's terrifying you for centuries. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they have a saying called the guest before Allah. And, you know, I would talk with people and my friend would go, you know, he was probably Taliban. But their attitude was like, we're very much against your George Bush your government yeah but you are welcome here you seem okay well but not even seem okay you don't represent them right and they they differentiate the two uh-huh like we're down with your government but you're our guest you're here you're our guest and you're welcome so they would know by by mostly because

you're not wearing a uniform. I can't even say how they would know. I think it was just the attitude of you're our guest and we welcome you. Yeah. I never felt threatened. I have these great photos. Once I was sitting in a little cafe and people love their pictures. I had two cameras.

I look like a life photographer. Yeah. It was like these two big fucking cameras. Yeah. And the guy taps me on the shoulder next to me and he goes, you know, it's the universal language for click, click. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as I pull up my camera, he opens up his vest and he's

got like bullets on both sides. Right, yeah, yeah. And he gave me a big smile. Like what year was that? Oh, I don't know, 90-something, late 90s. And how long were you there? I was there for about a month. Oh, that's how you travel? You go for a month?

You know, when I can. When I look at your output, I'm like, where did you find a month? I mean, maybe it was three weeks. But, you know, it's like when I was always wired for if I had however many weeks off, I'd go somewhere. When did you go to Africa? Oh, I was 18. And you just went however many weeks off, I'd go somewhere. When did you go to Africa? Oh, I was 18. And you just went? Yeah.

Yeah, I just went. What was the impetus? Well, I mean, I wanted to travel around the world. Yeah. And so me and my buddy, we spent like a year planning this trip through North Africa to India, Asia, work our way back to Los Angeles. After high school? Yeah.

Yeah. But we took a wrong turn. That's the thing. It's like my whole life has been a series of After high school? Yeah. Yeah. And, but we took a wrong turn. That's the thing. It's like, my whole life has been a series of crazy coincidences. Yeah. Yeah. So what I didn't account is that I would land in Paris first.

Yeah. And my brother played with this, he was a drummer with the musical theatrical troupe called Le Grand Magic Circus. Here? In Paris. Oh, in Paris. And I happened to just pick up a violin before that trip.

My first instrument ever. Yeah. And I was practicing it and I came out one day and my brother was sitting there with Jerome Savary, the director. And he goes, hey, Little Red, he called me. He says, you know, you're not bad. You come play with us. Yeah.

I go, really? I've only been playing like four or five months. Yeah. And he goes, nah, you're good enough. And I toured with them for a couple of weeks. And now my friend. What kind of music was that? It was like crazy.

I don't know. Crazy French. Yeah. Something cabaret tunes. So it was like chaotic. Yeah. Really chaotic. Right.

The shows were chaotic. Yeah. Like 20 people on stage. Right. Right. And audiences would chaotic. There were like 20 people on stage. Right, right. And audiences would get rowdy and big theaters. And every now and then there'd be like some shit would happen and chairs would start flying. And my brother would always like grab me, get your violin out of here, get your violin out of here. What year is this?

1970. Oh, so things were crazy then. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty crazy. And then rather than going through North Africa onto Asia, I ended up in the Canary Islands and I got really interested through friends I made with a country called Mali and the

art and the fetish things that I saw. And suddenly the next thing I know, we're on a different trip. Right. We go to Mauritania and then head down to Mali and I lived in Mali for a while. So this was just an adventure you were on and your brother was already like a traveling musician? He was already like into theater and music.

He was like a conga drummer. And you grew up here, right? Yeah. Wow. Los Angeles. So, you know, I ended up, that whole trip took a year. I never got to Asia, India and, you know, the Nepal like I planned know, I ended up, that whole trip took a year. I never got to Asia, India, and, you know, the Nepal, like I planned, but I ended up, I ended up in Uganda when Idi Amin was in power and just missed meeting him by like a minute. How would you have met him? Because I was

going to Murchison Falls and I was camping out. I couldn't stay in the actual lodge, but he was just leaving where he had done like some dinner or something. And all these cars were driving off and they told me, oh, President Amin just left. You just missed him. Was it better off probably?

You know, this is relevant to now because the way people spoke of Idi Amin at that time, they didn't believe that he was going to do the shit he was going to do. This was the beginning of his reign. I would be in a taxi and say, what do you, you know, what's with Idi Amin? He outlawed mini skirts and he goes, oh, dude, you don't take it seriously. He's just says stuff. He just says stuff. And just now it echoes of Donald Trump. Sure. He just says stuff. Yeah. You know, you ask people that are Trump's, he just said, what the fuck? He just said this thing.

Right. No, no, no. He's just talking. He just said stuff. And the next thing you know, they're slaughtering people. Exactly. In the streets.

It's just like, that's how authoritarian. Yeah. Yeah. They're clowns initially. And they called him the clown. Yeah. I mean.

Buffoons. Buffoon. Isn't that wild? He was considered a buffoon. And that's what makes him attractive to everybody you know is that like you know they're kind of entertained they're entertained he says crazy stuff but he won't do any of that so when you went down there like i'm trying to picture like i always like talking to people that grew up in la at that time because

and was work you were conscious in the 60s. Well, yeah. I mean, that's a subjective term, isn't it? Yeah. But I mean- I was somewhat conscious. But what part of town did you grow up? Baldwin Hills. Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. So it was sort of like, it's a black neighborhood now primarily, isn't it? I mean, I went to a mostly black black school audubon in crenshaw area that's where i went to middle school yeah and your and your parents were what school teachers so there was a premium put on education in the house i never went to college you know i was like every school teacher's worst nightmare yeah i'm glad my father lived long enough to see me sell out the Universal Amphitheater. Like you did something. Yeah, exactly.

Where was he from here? He was from Kenosha, Wisconsin, and moved out here after the war, World War II. Huh. And yeah, and became a school teacher. Wow. Wisconsin? Kenosha. How did his family get there?

How did he get there? Yeah. Via Poland. Huh. So he was part of the Midwestern Jews. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, his father, because I remember his parents didn't speak a lot of English.

So I don't remember them super well, because obviously I didn't speak Yiddish. Yeah. He never spoke that. Right. But they spoke Polish and Yiddish and probably Russian and probably three other languages. Yeah, yeah. You know. Right, sure.

Because like Dylan, the Zimmermans, they're Minneapolis, what's that, Minnesota Jews. Right, right. I think there was just jobs and farming and I don't know what. Yeah. So Kenosha, I think he was actually in the furniture business, retail furniture in Kenosha, if I recall correctly. And my guess is that my father

moved to Los Angeles first. I learned later that he wanted to be a big band trumpet player. Now, as a kid, I never even knew he played trumpet. Really? I discovered it later. He never played when you were growing up?

Never played and never even brought it up. But I think then his parents probably came out after he did and settled out here. And you never knew he was a trumpet player? No, I found the trumpet in the closet and he was like, oh yeah, I used to play it. My mom said he was really good. Oh, wow. And he let it go. He put it down. Yeah, he put it down and he had no regrets. He was not a frustrated musician or anything comfortable people yeah and you have one brother one brother yeah and you guys just were like tearing it up in los angeles tearing it tearing each other up but like you sort of like because i always picture the 60s

in los angeles as being were you on the periphery of show business at all did you travel in when but i mean in high school and stuff what were doing? Well, high school was a whole different. See, everything up to high school was one life. Yeah. Because I grew up, lived in Baldwin Hills. Yeah. No showbiz, nothing. You know, it wasn't until my parents moved to West LA.

And that's where you started to meet the people. And that's where I met, I understood, oh, what a dysfunctional family means. You know, it's like, okay, they live in Malibu, dysfunctional. I grew up in a real normal, boring, middle-class household. Yeah, and when does music start to come in? Not until high school. And what did it look like? It was like pure luck.

Yeah. The first friends I met, group of friends, were like an arty crowd. And this is like 60s arty. Well, this would have been like, yeah, I mean like 68, 69. And they played it. A lot of them played. One friend was already a trumpet player doing avant-garde composition. He turned me on to Stravinsky.

Oh, yeah. Another friend, crazy drummer. Yeah. Willie. Yeah. And, you know, we'd stay up all night getting stoned listening to jazz and, like, turned me on. Between jazz and Stravinsky, between Miles Coltrane and Stravinsky,

they just turned my life around completely. And... Reconfigured your brain? Totally. Yeah. Reconfigured my brain totally yeah configured my brain i like got out of rock and pop 100 were you in it well i mean i listened to the same stuff other kids did you know i'd grow up in the beatles and sure sure all that stuff but suddenly no i just want the new uh the new uh miles davis i want to hear what ericphy is doing. So that became, suddenly I became interested in

music only because all my friends did. Right. And was your brother playing at this point? He was a conga drummer. A conga drummer. Yeah. And he was like cool. He was like a hippie. Yeah. And living up in Haight-Ashbury, had a little clothing store and playing drums. How much older is he? Four and a half, four years. So you had that like sort of a guy who was with the machete in front of you, at least cutting the way into the counterculture. Well, what he taught me was how to keep my head down. Huh. You know, that's the second, third child.

You know, he caught all the shit. Right, right. You know. Yeah. Getting stoned, long hair, the whole thing. Caught the shit, caught the shit, caught the shit. And I learned, all right, keep your grades good and just lie through your teeth and smile. Everything's fine.

You'd be the good kid. Honey, you don't smoke. Oh, no, Mom. I'd be so fucked up saying I was so good at, like, covering it up. I swear to God, I didn't tell her until I was 40 how much drugs I used to do back in high school. And she was still upset. Oh, my God, I failed as a mother. I said, Mom, I'm doing great.

I mean, look, I've got a great career, but I failed you. She was still like. They still get hurt. Take it personally. And she says, why didn't you tell me? I said, because of this. Yeah, yeah. You see how you're reacting 25 years later?

Right, right. Can you imagine how you would have reacted then? I was protecting you. Right. Our job as kids growing up was to protect our parents. From who we really were. Exactly. Yeah.

The reality was just too hard for them. Yeah. And we had to protect them. So when you met these people, when your mind was being blown by music, when did you start playing? Well, not until my last year when I was going off to my trip. The fiddle? Yeah, I decided to pick up a fiddle and take it with me on the trip. That was your first instrument?

Yeah. Because I was trying to figure it out after looking at all I looked at. Like, what do you actually play? No, I, well, what do I play well? Nothing. I was totally always a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. I could pick up any instrument and learn to play something on it. Right.

So for me, at that point, I was obsessed with Django Reinhardt and Stephan Grappelli. That was his violinist, the jazz violinist from the 30s. Yeah. And so I wanted to play like Stephan Grappelli. And so when I started the Mystic Nights, when I got back from Africa, that's what I did. I actually played Django tunes. And the Mystic Nights, it was a theater group? Kind of a weird cabaret theater group, yeah.

Multimedia. Where was that at? That was all over San Francisco, Los Angeles, bouncing between the two. And did they have a headquarters? Like a one place? LA. You know, my loft. I had an old loft in Venice.

Oh, you did? We rehearsed there. Yeah. For like a nickel a month? Basically. And then I got my first place back on the east side again. Yeah. Rough area. Yeah. Rough area.

Yeah. And I mean, I remember it was like a big fucking loft with a parking lot in the duplex. And it was $5,000 down payment, which I borrowed from my parents. Yeah. Paid them back later. Right. But we rehearsed there for years. How many people in this ensemble?

Well, it was up to 12, actually. Now, did your brother have anything to do with this? He started with us and then he went off to make this movie, Forbidden Zone. And then I went off with the Mystic Knights

and kind of turned them into a more musical version of what we were. Everybody had to play three instruments. So we could triple as a brass ensemble, a string ensemble,

or a percussion ensemble. And what year was this? Oh, 72 through 78. Really? Yeah. So you were a unique entity. No one was really doing what you were doing. No, we were freaks.

Total freaks. And where did you fit into the music landscape at the time? I didn't fit into anything. I didn't even listen to music. In the 70s, I wouldn't listen to anything recorded after 1938. So you were like a full-on old-timey nerd. Yeah, yeah. In my head, I lived a life that went between Harlem and Paris, 1931.

Wow. And the other guys were like that, too? They got pulled into it. So you're only playing Django Reinhardt tunes? Well, Cab Calloway. Yeah, okay. My first writing of music was Duke Ellington. I loved Duke Ellington.

I really want to dig into him more. There's almost limitless genius to that guy. Yeah, total genius. And you listen to the arrangements. So transcribing Ellington arrangements was my first time actually writing music, was trying to learn how to transcribe in Ellington. So that's how you learned how to read music and write music? Listening and learning to write down the parts to Ellington. Oh, man.

So you taught yourself that? Yeah. And Ellington stuff, even now, many many years later i look back and i go no still a total genius you know it's not like i thought so at the time and in hindsight i go no not really no he was a fucking genius man right so like even before you got involved with pop music you way before i got involved with pop music you were under you were appreciating the sort of layers of composition. Like there's, it seems to me that like. I was, I was listening to

Ellington, Django, Stravinsky, and Prokofiev. Yeah. And so my compositions were like out of a weird Prokofiev-ish,

Stravinsky-ish nuttiness mixed in with Cab Calloway. But that's how your brain worked. Yeah. What about Zappa? Did you ever engage with that? I mean, I knew Zappa stuff and Ioway but that's how your brain worked yeah what about zappa did you ever engage with that i mean i i knew zappa stuff and i listened but that that was like a kind of

progressive rock and because it was rock i wasn't even into it so when that was happening even though the humor of it and the intention of it well i guess it wasn't quite similar to what you were doing then but certainly his fuck you ishness oh yeah yeah yeah i totally appreciated him yeah and his attitude and i remember his first album because that was still when i was listening to rock the mothers of invention yes i loved it was one of my first albums oh really but then when i like did my brain shift i got no rock and roll right nothing because it was uh it was uh silly no not at all i just like entered a portal it's just like walking through a portal it's like okay i'll live here for a while and that's sort of a uh an infinite portal that one yeah yeah a lot of people never leave those portals no because like well i mean i think it must have it must have

informed your creativity all the way through it because there's no to to it seems like that spectrum of stuff you were listening to can really encourage experimentation for almost ever, right? Well, that's true. I was also listening to a lot of modern percussion. I became obsessed with percussion. And there was a point where I thought I'd become a musicologist or a percussionist. I loved this guy named Harry Parch. Harry Parch was like almost a hobo composer in the 50s and the 60s,

and he built his own instruments. And we in the Mystic Knights, we actually built our entire ensemble of percussion instruments ourselves. Out of what? Out of metal and wood. I used to grind metal and grind wood. Did you guys live together? No, but my partner, Leon Schneiderman, he was the same guy I went to Africa with. He was a brilliant builder.

He built anything. And so I was really more like his assistant. Like I would design, like, here's what we want to do. We want to build this big base, crazy base marimba thing. We want to build this metal minor pans on a rack. But he would actually do it and I would help him. Yeah. He was really, that was his genius,

was like making constructions of things and putting it together. So were you guys doing happenings? Was that sort of the context of the performance? No. Were we recording? No. I mean, the first years was all on the streets. So my first three, four years of performance-

Where on the streets? Anywhere. We'd go to Westwood. Yeah. Like outside of a movie. We'd just appear. 15 guys? At that point, probably about 10.

Yeah. Like drums. Yeah. We'd do drums and then put the, at that point, probably about 10. Yeah. Like drums. Yeah. Do drums and then put the drums down, pick up our horns, play this crazy show, pass the hat and bail before the police came. Wow. And that went on for that many years? Yeah.

And then finally started moving into theaters and like little theaters and then- Did you ever build up any momentum? A little bit. I mean, you know, we got popular enough to play like a month at the boarding house in San Francisco, which was like, you know, a cool little theater. And we did the Alcazar. We did the Aquarius Theater here. We played for like a week. We do that kind of thing. And what were you doing for a living?

Waiting tables. Where? Great American Food and Beverage Company in Santa Monica. Uh-huh. Where I had to perform. I had to play trombone and sing and wait tables. So you had a little riff on the trombone you would do? Oh, man, it was awful.

It was so loud and crazy. And honestly, I was a busboy. I wasn't even really a waiter. I was only a waiter at the end. I wasn't good enough. On the trombone or as a waiter? As a waiter. Okay.

I was a shitty waiter. Me too. Terrible. I tried to bust into two other restaurants afterwards and faked my way in, and I didn't last a week. Yeah. I couldn't remember the orders. Yeah.

Bring the wrong thing. I didn't order that. It's the worst. But, oh, help. Yeah. It's the worst. But, oh, help. Yeah, it's the worst. So when, what's the evolution? What's out of the mystic, what's the whole name of the place? Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo.

Oh, so it was the Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo. Some of those guys. I call it the Mystic Knights because it's so confusing because the band took the name Oingo Boingo. Right. But it's no connection to what the Mystic Knights were doing. None? It's really fucking confusing. I mean, seemed like like you must have learned a lot it must have laid

the groundwork for your musical imagination well it i knew what i didn't want to do i didn't want to do theater anymore at all so suddenly i heard ska out of england and i said i want to do that i want to be a ska band and And I love the idea that all we need is amps, no sets, costumes, makeup, all this shit. Cause we had movies, animations. It's like, I love the idea. So it's a full psychedelic experience in a way, but not psychedelic. Trippy. Yeah. And, um, so I love the idea of going to the other extreme, strip it down. All we need is amps drums go yeah and uh and i just wanted to be in a ska band all of a sudden it's weird because like i listened to those first few

when the first couple oingo boingo records and it's not it doesn't sound essentially like ska to me it was motivated by ska and punk right you know we weren't really a ska band and we certainly weren't a punk band yeah but we were driven by those impulses and we you know we did there were a number of ska songs yeah most of them didn't make it to record huh and then what wasn't ska was just really fast yeah it was fast in it like but it drew from like there's there's a momentum that kind of you know pounds through like a lot of your music you know an intensity to it it's called nervous energy loud nervous energy loud nervous energy with uh you know really really low attention span

and uh is that what do is that do you find did you have adhd i mean are you a guy probably i never got you know we didn't get diagnosed yeah. But I'm sure that I did. Yeah? Yeah. And then like, but music focuses you somehow. Yeah, exactly. It's all, the only thing I could focus on was like, if I was into a composition, if I was into a thing, I learned I could really, really stick with that.

Be present for it. Present for it. But I could never learn another language. Yeah. I could never learn to read properly. Right. Even though I could write my whole scores down when I started scoring. I tried doing lessons to like improve my reading and I couldn't fucking do it.

It's like I really began to feel, and I still feel that I've got a brain like a kink. Yeah. You know, like something in there that like has me always been off. But how how's your like, how can you sight read pretty well? Not at all. Music? No, shit. Like, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. I can write it. But when I read it back, I have to read it slow because I learned to write without learning how to read. Right. So my reading was as fast as I can write. Yeah. So that would be the same as like teaching yourself to type without reading. And then when you learn to read, you're reading at the same speed you could type. Right. But you can express yourself

immediately through writing music if you hear it in your head. Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah, I can write it. I learned early enough that I could write it all down if I take the time,

freeze it and write it. Yeah. But to read it in real time, fluently, that was like learning a language. And that's where I hit a block. Well, that's when you get the other guy to do it, right? Where you're like, play this for me. Well, I mean, I didn't have that ability back then. But, you know, write it out and then it would go straight to orchestra.

Right, right, right. You know, when you're in a band, you don't write anything out. Right. You just jam? Yeah. You just tighten it up, rehearse? Oh, man. I did like seven years

of writing with the Mystic Knights. Then I'm in the band, Oingo Boingo, and I said, all that was wasted. All that was for nothing. Because I'm in a band,

you bring in a guitar, you play the song, and the band picks it up and you're playing it. But what was the scene then? I mean, it's like in order, okay, you decided you didn't want to do theater,

but you obviously made some choice to do pop music in a way, right? You were gunning for hits, weren't you? No. Not really? I knew we'd never have a hit. Didn't you kind of, though?

Well, Weird Science was kind of a hit, but that was an inadvertent, unplanned thing. I remember when I was a kid, because I'm 57, but I had a friend that would literally months sing that, I think, the first Oingo Boingo record, like, almost in its entirety when he was just wandering around. They went with, I'm on the outside. Well, I mean, is that the first album? That probably was the first album. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

He really, like. Yeah, he was in it. And it was like, it was one of those things, you guys never, you don't know about Oingo Boingo? No, and he had the cassette, and he kept putting it in in the car. Wow. Yeah.

I pity you. No, it was great, because it was, at that time, you're like, I've never heard anything like this. Well, but what, I mean, hits, it wasn't. You know, we developed a really big, beautiful following in the West Coast. But we were considered like the biggest cult band in the country. Because like, you know, we got to a point where we could sell 6,500 seats easily in Los Angeles.

And we could take that to San Francisco. We can go as far as Salt Lake City, San Diego. And people would still know. But across the Rockies, and now we're playing like a 300-seat club. Really? Yeah. So I guess that's what – I think he probably was one of those guys, because I grew up in New Mexico, and I think he probably visited somebody in L.A. Right.

And they're like, you don't know Oingo Boingo, that kind of thing. Yeah. And brought it back. Oh, yeah. But look, Salt Lake City was one of our best audiences. Very interesting. You know, the people that sort of like – Mormons are a good audience if you're not dirty. And the people that are annoyed by Mormons are a great audience if you want to push the envelope. I just thought those kids needed to let some steam off because they were like some of the rowdiest audiences.

Really? Yeah. They rivaled L.A. for sure. Well, like if that was like I'm trying to think you were a part of the L.A. music scene at that point. Well, the L.A. music scene, fortunately, at that point was really eclectic. Like we switched clubs every weekend with a group of bands. It would be like us, a group called Fear. Oh, yeah. X. Yeah.

The Go-Go's. Yeah. A group called Wall of Voodoo. Yeah. Las Lobos. It was a really eclectic group. If you lined us all up up you would find very little in common with any of us but that was sort of what real punk was about wasn't it was just about a

lot of different original like it was not like the sound that punk rock gets identified with is not really what the original idea of punk was yeah i mean i don't know when when i started a band i you know it's like punk oh i'm way too old i'm 27. i'm an old man so like i can't be in a punk band but it was just people doing their own vision like the minute men too right yeah yeah exactly and yeah so i mean a lot of boundaries were crossed but the interesting thing about the la scene is that there wasn't an la scene right it was just a lot of unique like i, I would play a show at Madam Wong's West and I would run in between our sets

to the Hong Kong Cafe to see X play. They were my favorite band ever. I listened to those first three X albums recently. They're amazing. They're great. I always thought

they were like the best. They were the real deal. And the thing is, I would see X and Las Lobos and these other bands and I so was envious of the fact that they knew who they were and i never had a clue and i still don't yeah

like there was an identity and i i envied that that like the sense there was a a center to it right it was grounded in in something real well it's grounded though well those guys are grounded in a sort of american tradition right is that rock the x was kind of a rock band in los lobos was those are kind of fundamental americana bands yeah and the go-go's was a pure pop band and um you know they all had a center that kept them clearly what they were. Interesting. And I never had that. And I envied anybody who did. And you still feel like you don't. Oh, I know I don't.

And my new album proves it. Yeah, but I mean, I listen to the new record and I listen to old records. I mean, you definitely, nobody sounds like you, but I understand what you're saying. But it seems to me that coming out of what you came out of with the interests that you had, you seem to honor most of those interests. And those are not as simple as those other bands. Maybe. But I still, I wanted to be in a different band every two years. And you can't be in a band wanting to be in a different band every two years.

It's like every two years, I wanted to wake up and do a whole different kind of band. Yeah. And that made it very frustrating for me. different kind of band yeah and that made it very frustrating for me and what i didn't understand is that i was going to become a film composer and those same impulses would work to my advantage because not being limited well no just loving extremes yeah having to switch it up switch it up right right right because you go from ridiculous to heavy to intense yeah to small and personal and you didn't need a center you didn't need a center as long as i could keep mixing it up i was happy right if i did two things in a row that they were

the same i was miserable but being on the road was impossible i'd have to perform the same songs every night would make me insane really yeah i mean i could never have been on broadway it's like when you hear about you know bands touring for all year long or playing the hits decades or people somebody being on broadway doing eight shows a week six weeks on the road i was going insane what was it the repetition yeah it just made me insane did it make you feel like you were uh uh just uh almost like a recording machine or i or like what was it i i don't know i i just i was like i don't want, I was like, I don't want to do this song anymore. I don't want to do this song anymore.

And because it was dead to you? It was more than two years old. So like when you were doing the mystic theater business, it was constantly evolving and improv. Did you improv a lot? Because it was a theater group, you can switch it up and change it and switch it up. And surprising things happened.

Yeah. And also, we didn't do that much performing. So we'd do like a month on and then there'd be four months off and then like two weeks on. So it's not like we were playing every night. Well, that's interesting because so ultimately your destiny, thank God it worked out because you weren't cut out for the road. No, I was not cut out for the road. You know, it's like bands who stay together and tour for decades. I admire it, but I'm just not wired for that.

And I'm always at war. See, here's the problem. And you can hear it on the new record. And you could probably, if you listen to early Ongo Boingo and later Ongo Boingo, you can hear the conflict. There's two writers that don't like each other in you one is heavy and the other is really intense and ridiculous right with a sense of kind of craziness and they have no respect for each other and they're always trying to get the front seat that That's within you. That's right. And when I started writing Big Mess, every song came out in pairs, just like one, the other, one, the other.

So the heavy part then, well, I mean, but that's the counterbalance. One is the sense of humor. The other is the sort of dark dread. Yeah, that fills me, you know? And also when I'm writing orchestra yeah and and scores you know it's like i love writing heavy dark music but i also loved writing peewee's big adventure and beetlejuice and i love them both but they they don't like each other well how did it feel though on big mess to to i mean i i imagine because i've talked to a couple i talked

to nancy wilson a couple weeks ago from Hart. And this is a woman, you know, who's been in that rock band forever. Never done a solo record. But because she was locked down and they figured out the technology, you know, she did her first solo album. So you're sitting at home. I mean, you haven't done like an Oingo Boingo record forever or a record like this in how many years? Well, 95 was my last record with Oingo Boingo. And i only did one solo record back in the 80s right so this is like a monumental achievement in a way i don't know i didn't look at it like that no but i mean you did it the thing

is i had set 2020 aside yeah no films i was going to do concerts before the pandemic yeah you mean you were going to do your orchestral you were were going to conduct? Also, I had orchestra shows all over the world. Four different shows. I mean, I have a show that travels around called Elfman Burton. Does all these Tim Burton music. Then Nightmare Before Christmas starts going as a live thing. Do you do a live accompaniment to the film? The whole show live with orchestra.

Oh, that's great. And they just announced that yesterday we're doing it this Halloween because people love it. They love that movie. But also I had my violin concerto premiering in England and Germany that I wrote five years ago, four years ago. I had a new work that I'd written for the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain premiering at the proms in August. I had a concerto. What's that one? I don't know what it is. I mean, because it didn't happen. So,

you know, hopefully in another year and two concertos, one a cello concerto and a concerto for a percussion. So, I was like really

in that mindset but I also had Coachella and that got me into like, I'm going to come back out there and do this crazy fucking show in Coachella. What was the Coachella show? Half film music

and half, I was revamping and rewiring Oingo Boingo stuff. Yeah. And because I was looking for, I'm so angry in 2020. I'm so frustrated and so angry with the world and America. Yeah. That I was looking for what's relevant now. And I found that I was singing constantly about dystopia. So it wasn't hard

to pull stuff and like, all right, that works, that works, that works. And I had this band together and we were rehearsing and we were starting to sound good and I was getting excited. So my mind was like back into, I'm going out on stage and I'm going to rip the fucking thing up and I'm going to really, and then it all disappears. Oh, yeah. And so I'm sitting up in my little place north of Los Angeles. I have a second home that I've had for 25 years. I've never spent more than a weekend. Yeah.

My wife, myself, my son, my dog head up there. To quarantine. We lived there for a year now. How was it? Beautiful. We're making that our primary home now. I know. I think I actually somehow on a news feed somewhere saw you sold your house here. Yeah.

Yeah. Sold it. Looked like a pretty house. Beautiful. Yeah. But decided to make that the center. Out in the woods or what? It's not in the woods, but it's in a beautiful area, wild area.

Oh, cool. And I still had that thing in my head yeah and so i started to write this orchestral piece yeah but it's just not happening because i'm not feeling i knew that the proms was not going to happen in august even though they hadn't canceled we all knew there was going to be no fucking concerts right so i lost the the deadline along with the deadline went the impetus and i said said, you know what? I got this one new song I was going to do in Coachella called Sorry. Yeah. And I'll write a couple songs.

And I have a beautiful studio in LA. Yeah. Up there, all I had was one guitar, one mic, and my computer. And I didn't even have a pair of headphones that worked. Yeah. I don't know what was wrong with them. Right. And I just started in.

And then Pandora's box, I couldn't shut the fucking thing up wow that's interesting because like so you're you're in an orchestral state of mind but you had a lot to say i had a lot to say and i still had the electric guitar yeah fresh in my fingers yeah yeah and so that made it a guitar centric album that I was writing. Otherwise, it could have been electronic. It could have been anything. Yeah. But I, in my head, I was going on stage with a guitar.

Yeah. And so I just pulled out my guitar. And you laid out all those tracks? Yeah. Like, all you had was Sorry? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, there's a lot of stuff in this record that's kind of mostly, most all of it is timely because you knocked it out during this dark period.

Yeah, I was, I had so much venom in me when I started opening my mouth to sing and putting lyrics, it was like, I don't even know where all this is coming from, but it was like we were in an America that I could not have imagined except in a bad dystopian American short story or novel. Right.

That you go, oh boy, that's not reality. Right. And that's where we were heading. Yeah. And it's not over. No. Not by a long fucking shot. No, the fight is on.

The fight is on. And all we get is a reprieve. So, but in 2020, I mean, i was at the height of frustration and i was thinking fear fear definitely yeah you know my wife and i were going do we move i know yeah canada or england or new zealand or australia an english-speaking country or do we try to bubble up in california yeah think of this as a country outside of America yeah you know how do we play this it's like America's going insane yes um this is Idi Amin this is like like a when does it tip into blood in the streets when does it tip into blood in the streets and there's that point where

I understood what happened in 1929 in Germany because Idi Amin took power yeah Hitler didn't he was elected yeah and i'm not comparing trump to hitler right because i've done this once and gotten myself in deep shit what i'm comparing is when a civilized democracy right hands over the democracy to a uh kind of a populist wild guy yeah who's tapping into like an anger. You know, and with Hitler, it was a lie. It was the anger of losing World War I. Yeah.

They were angry about that. And he sold a lie that they didn't really lose it. They didn't lose World War I. It was given away. They were actually winning the war. It's just where we are right now with Trump and the election. Right. I didn't lose it. I won by a landslide. It was taken away. And then people, yeah, and they living in Germany at the time, didn't believe that's not going to happen here. They're too logical.

They're too sane. They can't hand it over. And they did. You lost people in the Holocaust? Of course. Yeah. Well, my family, they were out, most of them, before World War II. Well, a lot of mine were but not you know

of course extended family sure sure yeah we all lost people yeah yeah and uh but the point is is that it's handing it over yeah and seeing the insanity and going it'll level out it'll level up no it doesn't it's like this is just crazy right and that's what drove this. Yeah. Yeah. It was like seeing like, we're going crazy. We're talking crazy conspiracies. Yeah. I mean, you got QAnon out there talking crazy shit. This is like flat earth kind of shit.

I know. It's all happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing how fragile the human brain is in terms of like, I found that what surprised me more than anything else, both with people I thought were intelligent and also with people who were

frighteningly stupid is just how truly shallow a lot of people's intellect is and principles about anything or their ability to, to have some sort of barometer for truth. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, look, my anger wasn't directed at Trump. truth. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, look, my anger wasn't directed at Trump. Every culture has got a million sociopath, crazy, you know, populists waiting to like step in and hand them the power. Sure. I'll take it. It's the Republican Party that enabled him. And continues to. And continues to. That's craving fucking opportunists that that's the part that gets me because it should be he's a fringe he's like a fringe character on a on a world on a stage of characters and he's like one of the fringe no i guess i i mean should we've been surprised that none of them had any character

or backbone i was i was surprised i didn't think they'd go that far as to like the, I just didn't think it could happen. And which song on here speaks to like in your mind is, is like the, the, um, the one that really covers most of all, I would probably say sorry and, and serious ground.

Yeah. Uh, you know, it's like, I felt those boots coming. Yeah. coming yeah and uh you know what it feels like to feel like the boots of like the gang yeah and you know i've always had this fear of of gangs yeah of mobs yeah uh i remember being in england once and i was i was lost i was trying to get out of one area into another and i was like near a soccer stadium, I guess. Yeah. And suddenly I hear this sound.

Right. And it was like a kind of a big mob coming from a game. And I just hid out of the way and I watched them march by. Yeah. And I was fucking scared. No, they weren't out to get me. Yeah. And I didn't have any reason to be.

But the fact that it was a fired up mob. Yes. Maybe it's the Jew in me. Yeah. It's like, yeah, out of the fucking way. Yeah. These are, you know, this is the Gestapo. This fired up mob. Yes. Maybe it's the Jew in me. Yeah. It's like, get out of the fucking way. Yeah. These are, you know, this is the Gestapo. This is the mob.

Yes. This is the uncontrollable mob. Yes. It's like, well, there's a group of fired up. Yeah, I was freaked out. I mean, when he was elected, the woman I was dating at the time, you know, I was like, I got to get my passport and make sure my papers are in order so I can get the fuck out of here because they're going to come for us. And she was like, I think Jews are like my third or fourth down on the list.

They got to get through a few other ones. Some brown people first. And I'm like, well, that's cold comfort. But I understand what you're saying. No. You know, and that's the other similarity to us in Germany 29 is focus your anger towards a minority. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

That's standard practice. Standard practice. Yeah. And in fact, that was Idi Amin's thing. He fired up his base with get rid of the Indians, the Sikhs, because a lot of the businesses were run by Sikhs, run really well by a long embedded Sikh population that had been there for generations. And he was saying, we're going to kick all the Sikhs out. And people that I talked with in Uganda were going, they could never do that. The Sikhs, they keep the economy

rolling. They're actually really good at what they do. They're not stealing land from Ugandans. They're just good business people. And he did. The year I got home, I remember I'm home, he says, all the Sikhs expelled. Their business is taken away and nationalized. And that was the beginning

of the economy going into this massive nose dive. Well, that's what's scary just now about how all these corporations stood up against these new voting legislations in these Republican states

and they just said, fuck you. We're going to do it anyways. That's right. So, but getting back to the music, it's interesting to me that the sort of scope that you can sort of summon orchestrally was not enough to relieve your dread and fear,

that you had to put voice to it. I had to put voice to it. Yeah. And I had to get that out of my system. And also, I just had a lot of stored up. I mean, also part of it was pandemic. It was like quarantine, I just had a lot of stored up. I mean, also part of it was pandemic. It was like quarantine. I just had a lot of frustrated, pent up energy.

Because you're used to running around and performing and scoring. Yeah, just, I don't know. I just wasn't used to like just being sitting up, you know, north in my little paradise. Yeah. You know, as sweet as it is. It's like, okay, two weeks. Well, what'd you reckon with that i mean you know for a guy that doesn't feel like you have a center or or a uh a particular

identity did you did you come upon one no i mean i it was interesting the sources that were coming to me because i found a lot of david bowie i hear that in your record, yeah. And I didn't grow up on David Bowie, but I discovered him later. What's like, screw in Bowie? Well, Scary Monster. Oh, really? You know, it's like, when I pick up a guitar, I'm thinking of like, Adrian Ballou, Scary Monster, period. It's like, oh, that's part of my subconscious now. Oh, really?

So there's always going to be like- No Fripp, Ballou. Well, no, Fripp too. Yeah, really? So there's always going to be like... No Fripp, Baloo. Well, no, Fripp too, but that particular, that album, I realize I know every song on it. It stuck with me.

When I came back to popular music in the 80s, that was the first Bowie album I heard. I'd never heard anything, I never even knew what Siggy Stardust was.

I remember when Scary Monsters came out and how exciting it was because he'd been away for a while. Okay. Right? I didn't know that. See, for me, that was just like, that was what was there when I came out of hibernation. Yeah. Is Baloo all over that record? Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. And so that hit me. And you have that similar kind of vocal effect sometimes.

Well, I wish. I mean, in my dreams. No, but you have the depth of it, I think effect sometimes. Well, I wish. I mean, you know, in my dreams. No, but you have the depth of it, I think, sometimes. Well, you know, what's interesting is I had to find a voice for this record

because when it comes to singing, it's use it or lose it, baby. Yeah. And I hadn't been using it for 25 years. Yeah. I remember going to Vegas,

Tim Burton said, oh, you gotta go to the Tom Jones show in Las Vegas. I just interviewed him. Really? Yeah. And I did. I went out to. Really? Yeah. And I did.

I went out to Tim's. Yeah. And he must have been my age now or maybe older. Yeah. And he was amazing. Yeah. He would hit high notes and then hold it longer than he needed to. Oh, yeah.

And look at the audience. It was like, fuck you. I can hold this fucker forever. Yeah. He's still like that. That's what drives him is that he can still do he was amazing now I hadn't sung so like when I got in there for rehearsals for Coachella it's like oh man oh no bonus songs were already at the top of my range right it's

like I can't hit these high notes so I'm sitting there with the album so yeah what is my range what's my instrument yeah and it was the song called true yeah and i found like i couldn't do this song 25 years ago interesting and i go i'm liking this now because i think it's like you know if trumpet was your thing and then you put it away for a long time you bring it out and you go okay i can't hit high c right i can hit this middle tone nastier than I could then. Oh, so you're aware of that. Yeah. And it was like, I was finding those tones.

I always did want a rougher voice back then. And I was frustrated that I didn't have it. Oh, now you got it. Yeah. I got it. I got it. I earned it. Yeah.

So I can't go as high, but I found I could do stuff. I could also sing with more open than i think i was trying harder than like all of my vocals on big mess were demos in my own room i didn't recut a thing when we went to fin to do the album and i didn't care yeah i said i don't care i don't care the fuck what anybody thinks of my vocals if i sound shitty i sound I sound shitty. The fuck do I care? Yeah, and also, I imagine when you were younger, there was an urgency. Yeah, and I'd go in the studio and try to top it, do another take, do another take.

This time, it's no other takes. Just lay it down. Okay, it's a little out of tune here. Okay, I'm good with that. Don't fix it. Yeah. And you know where I learned that? Nightmare Before Christmas, a quarter century ago. Oh, really? Tim and I went good with that. Yeah. Don't fix it. Yeah. And you know where I learned that? Nightmare Before Christmas,

a quarter century ago. Oh, really? Tim and I went in the studio when I first wrote the songs. There were 10 songs. Yeah. And I had a female singer do Sally's song.

Now, I had nine songs to record. Right. I did all the parts one night with Tim as the producer. Yeah. And did these, and now a year later, we're in the studio doing it for real.

Yeah. And I'd be singing and singing and singing. And Tim would go, can you put on that original demo? Really? And I'd be like, I hate to say it, but I kind of like this verse or that verse better. And he was right. And I realized, you know what? There's something to that first take.

Sure. Yeah. That's special. And half of those demos. Not self-conscious yet no and half of the demos from nightmare made it into the final movie so this time i was smart i was saying don't discount any first vocals that you do yeah and you got to hold yourself to that especially if you you know you second guess you're insecure you're perfectionist i mean it's almost like this weird discipline yeah it's like you lay it down you're like perfectionist. I mean, it's almost like this weird discipline.

Yeah. It's like you lay it down. You're like, don't take it. Don't fuck it up. Don't fuck it up. And it's the discipline to not be a perfectionist. Right. That's hard for you?

Yeah. Yeah, it is. So that was a good experience. It was cathartic. I was being open. Yeah. Also, I was writing first person which i rarely did in oingo boingo wow so it's like a full departure it was like a rediscovery you know in the beginning

in oingo boingo almost everything was third person yeah characters characters yeah you know like people ask me now say man aren't you ashamed you wrote a song i love little girls i go no i was like say i was jeff was Jeffrey Epstein singing about little girls. Right, right. And middle class socialist brat. I mean, are you really down on? I said, no, I was a middle class socialist brat. That's me.

Yeah. But I'm trying to irritate everybody. Well, that's interesting now that people in this new sort of culture of first person, authenticity, own what you say kind of shit, that they don't have the sophistication to understand that there are characters in these songs. Oh, absolutely. It's interesting. There were almost all characters. Yeah. I was just like shooting at the right and the left.

Yeah. Boom, boom, boom. It's like, get everybody mad. In this one, you do something similar, but it's from your own heart it's from my own heart and and I'm singing for the first time in in ages how I felt yeah that's great you know I guess that maybe that's just getting older not caring because I in a third person is also protection sure yeah a bit of armor yeah it's character yeah you get yeah and also being in a

band is a bit of protection yeah you're keeping yourself protected well it's interesting that like that it's good that you've had the success that you've had and that you know you are musically confident enough to allow yourself to do this to you know that you and also that we happen to you have a aspiring fascist and a pandemic. That doesn't hurt. It really doesn't hurt because the album wouldn't happen. No. Not in a million years.

Yeah, you would have been doing like huge movie things and orchestras. Orchestras. Yeah, exactly. But when did you know? Did you know that Oingo Boingo was like that that couldn't last? Was there any part of moving? Because you were doing soundtracks. Yeah, the 10 years of overlap. That's a lot.

Yeah. But so how did the first, like, soundtrack happen? It was Pee Wee's Big Adventure. It was. That was the first big one. Tim Burton came to me. How did he know you? He knew me through Oingo Boingo.

He did. Paul Rubens, that's Pee Wee, knew me through Forbidden Zone that I did for my brother in the 70s. My brother did this crazy movie, Forbidden Zone, and Paul was a fan. So Paul and Tim get together, and they knew me through two different worlds. Did Paul know your brother? No. But Paul knew. He made a note in his head.

He said, whoever did Forbidden Zone, I want that guy. And Tim used to go see Oingo Boingo. Yeah. So when I met Tim, I thought they wanted a song. Right. And Tim was like, no, I'm looking for a score. And I'm like, why me? A real score?

Yeah. And I almost didn't take the job. Huh. Because we talked. I went home and I did a demo. I sent him a cassette tape and that's the main titles to peewee but you know i got the job and i almost was said no i said i don't want to up your movie i liked him i didn't want to up his movie but like but what he must have

known like he must have heard the whole history of what you think is interesting musically annoying i don't know what he heard because he took a a big chance. That's all I can say. But who could have handled something that, you know, like it's interesting because it was so defining of like a lot of the stuff you're going to do from then on because the range of it, like it was totally in your wheelhouse pre-Oingo Boingo, it seems, that Pee Wee was. I don't know.

I'd never tried it before. The scoring, but I mean, the kind of music, there was a calliope element. No, no, that's true. I listened to film music. I was a film music fan. You were. From when I was about 12.

What was compelling about it, really? Oh, well, you know, first off, I went to the movie theater every weekend of my life. Yeah. My church was the Baldwin Hills movie theater.

Yeah. Horror films. Right. That's very specific yeah and science fiction i grew up interesting i remember the film it was the day the earth stood still right bernard herman yeah and it was like wow somebody wrote this there was a name and music and i i found understood that the music didn't just happen somebody did it but it's also interesting that those two forms, like horror and science fiction, the music is essential in creating.

I mean, it's always essential in creating a mood, granted. But it almost plays a character in both of those genres. Totally. Right. And then I went on to all these movies I grew up as a kid. Seventh Voyage of Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts, Journey to the Center of the Earth. So every time I saw Ray Harryhausen and Bernard Herrmann's names, I go, that's it. That's the movie.

That's going to be my favorite movie of the year. Harryhausen and Herrmann. Wow. Because it was interesting. I was listening. I don't know why I'm using the word interesting so much. I don't usually. Because I was listening to some of the scores that you did.

And when you listen to them without the movie, you're like, how did the movie even exist next to this? It's like bigger than the movie. It's like. Do you know what I mean? I guess. Yeah. I mean, it's good because you don't notice in that way in context. But on its own, you're like, oh, my God, this is huge.

I never thought of it that way. on its own, you're like, oh my God, this is huge. I never thought of it that way. Like, it's like, it almost, it's sort of like, I see your movie and I will trump, I will double that, you know? I mean, honestly, I was just doing the best I could for the movie. Oh, that's great. So Pee Wee's was it. Pee Wee's was it.

That opened the door. The baptism in fire. Yeah. And it was the right place at the right time. Any successful composer has a lucky break. And that was Pee Wee because. But you didn't see yourself as a composer yet, did you? But something about that moment in time with film and comedy.

Yeah. Nobody knew what to do with comedy. Right. Pee Wee came out and instantly I was offered every quirky comedy made in Hollywood. Wow. It's like, get the guy who did Pee Wee. Get the guy who did Pee Wee. Get the guy who did Pee Wee.

And that's how you did back. that's how Back to School happened? Yeah, exactly. And that's a totally more traditional thing. Yeah. And then, you know, in between each of Tim's films, I did four. Yeah. So it was Pee Wee was one. Yeah.

Beetlejuice was five. Batman was 10. Didn't quite make it to 15. Edward Scissorhands was 14. And Tim would go, how are you doing four films between each of my films? And I said, Tim, I have to.

I have to learn how to do this. I'm learning how to score. So you just took opportunities that you could deal with. Anything. To learn how to do it. Exactly. Well, kind of interesting

because I was listening to Midnight Run. It was almost like, where'd this come from? This is like a Ry Cooter soundtrack. You know what I mean? If you listen to the album that you put out of the soundtracks,

Music for a Darkened Theater or whatever, the diversity of sound, and then all of a sudden Midnight Run happens, and I had forgotten how much I remembered that music from that movie, and I wouldn't associate it with you. Well, that was always my greatest joy, and still is. When there's end credits, and somebody sees my name and goes, I didn't associate it with you. Well, that was always my greatest joy and still is.

When there's end credits and somebody sees my name and go, I didn't know Danny did that score. And then that for me is the big yes. Really? Oh, absolutely. Why? Because that's my goal. That's my pleasure.

To not be pigeonholed. Yeah. To do something that's surprising. Well, I guess it must be difficult because you've inspired so many different sounds. Like, you must be in competition with yourself being channeled through other people. Well, it is weird. And I come back later and it's like, all right, there's other people who do Beetlejuice better than me. Right.

And I'm now doing a movie that's kind of like somebody else doing Beetlejuice back at me. And I even was asked once by a director, can you make it more Elfman? And I said, honestly, I don't know if I can because for this particular version of Elfman, there's probably four or five other guys who do it better than me now. And as Elfman-ish as I can get at this moment, it wasn't quite enough.

What did they use as a reference for that? Batman, probably? No, I mean, in this particular thing, it was, you know, it was a comedy. I don't know. Maybe it was Beetlejuice. Maybe it was, I don't know what it was. Well, it was interesting because, like, even with Scrooge, that, like, I don't know how you sort of tackle it, but, like,

and I don't know that, I think I'm just learning in the last few days just from listening to some of your stuff about how it works, but in Scrooge, you clearly were like, you integrated some Christmas spirit in there. Yeah, that's the job. Well, I know, but the fa-la-la-la-la part, the la-la-la-la-la-la, and it

gets sort of foreboding because it easy to turn christmas into foreboding for me christmas was the most depressing time of the year every year for me as a jew or just in general well as a jew with no jewish friends right okay it was terrible terrible time yeah i mean i for years afterwards i'd hear the beginning of christmas music in a store, and it was like dark clouds started rolling into my head because I was lonely. And I pictured all my friends holding hands, singing Christmas carols around the tree with their families, and I was just sitting with my very dull, secular family, not celebrating anything. Yeah, nothing. Just waiting for the fucking season to be over so I can get back to business as usual. So the music was horrible, menacing.

Yeah, it was. And it wasn't until I had kids that I was like, I embraced Christmas through them. Because they're so enthusiastic about it. I say, okay, this is cool. You know, like they're so excited. So you weren't brought up with any religion, really? No. Well, that's good that you learned how to appreciate

through the kids oh yeah because that's what it's all about you know it's like i mean let's face it the jews didn't get it right with hanukkah competing with christmas the the uh the anticipation of going to sleep and all your presents will be under the tree santa brings them in the middle of the night. Yeah. That's great shit. This sounds like, it almost sounds like, you know, the sort of backstory to the Halloween. Nightmare Before Christmas. Right.

That it seems to kind of coincide with your own personal experience. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I totally, Look, when I wrote the songs for Nightmare Before Christmas, I related to Jack so much. Right. Jack, I felt like Jack.

Yeah. Not so much about Christmas, it was about Oingo Boingo. Like, when you're in a band, when you're the lead singer in a band, that's your kingdom. That's your world. You're the king.

Yeah. And I wanted out for like six, seven years years and i didn't know how to get out six out of the ten out of we were together almost 17 years my god and but you still work with uh steve bartek yeah forever right yeah yeah my guitarist and um but the point is is i wanted out but i didn't know how yeah and i related to jack yeah because he was like he's in this world they love him in this world but he wants something else and he wants out and he doesn't know how to do it so when i'm writing those songs yeah for jack i was writing for myself

yeah yeah that was me so that was a that was a personal record that was a personal record for me it totally was i related to jack and how how do you come up with something like the like i mean how does it work for you what's your like how do you come up with the batman theme oh that that hit me at the worst possible time um tim flew me out to england and i was on the batman set yeah walking around you know kind of getting the vibe and they paid me some footage yeah and on the plane on the way home the thing fucking hits me and it's like what do i do i'm on a 747 uh how do i do this i'm gonna forget this all i'm gonna land and they're gonna play some fucking beatle song or something and i'm gonna erase everything yeah big eraser so i start with my little tape recorder. I never went anywhere without. I start running

in the bathroom and like going a little bit. I go back to my seat. I'm thinking, I'm thinking. Ten minutes later, back in the bathroom. Back in my seat. Ten minutes, back in the bathroom. Because I couldn't do this next to the guy next to me. Who thinks you're

doing blow. Well, all this. Now I open the door and the flight attendants are there. Sir, can we help you? Yeah, yeah. No, I'm fine. I'm fine. Yeah, yeah. You sure?

You sick? No, I'm not sick. Okay. Can we get you anything? No, no. I'm great. I'm great. Ten minutes later, I'm back in the bathroom.

Open the door. Now there's three flight attendants. Right. Sir, are you okay? And they're probably going, what the fuck is he doing so frequently? You can't do that much blow. Right. You can't shoot up that often.

What is he doing in there? Yeah. And I was like piece by piece working out the Batman score in my head and doing it all with like kind of complex audio notes that I knew how to do. Yeah. Where I could stack a chord and kind of create a harmony. Because I couldn't grab a napkin. Right. I could only write music if I have a keyboard.

Right. Now, of course, I have a little keyboard, even my phone. Right. You know, I have to have some notes in front of me to write. I can't just write out of my head. Oh, to get it started. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. To get all the chords and get the progression. So I needed to do notes. And it was all done in the bathroom of a 747, which is loud, by the way. The 747, there was a roaring sound. I get home, and sure enough, we land, and they play like,

Yesterday, all my troubles and Batman's gone. It is like history, like lost this song. And I run home, and I turn on my tape recorder and I hear sound. And you're like, fuck. And a little bit. Oh, you heard it. It's like, at first I was like, oh no, it's gone. Then it came back and I said, that's it, that's it, that's it.

And I quickly wrote it all down. That's amazing. So it's all, so you can hear all the different layers in your head. Yeah. And I knew enough to always have a tape recorder because the car, so many of my ideas I get when I'm driving. Yeah. And I look, LA. Right. We drive. Right. And there's something about getting in the car and driving. Suddenly there's the bridge, there's the chorus, there's the part of the melody that I couldn't work out. And it's like, you know, I always had a Sony tape recorder with me 24-7. Well, the one thing I noticed listening just to, like, the way these things begin is that, so over time, you realize that structurally, musically, you're, like, because what I heard was, like, you're entering this world now.

Right. That there's something about the lead-in to the first bit of music in a film that really sets the stage before almost anything else. Yeah, yeah. And you're conscious of that. I dig that.

Oh, yeah. I love it when there's a title piece and I can set the tone right up at the top. Yeah. Because some movies, it really makes a difference. Like, for example, Beetlejuice.

The audience didn't know what it was. And they tried previewing it because it takes 45 minutes for Michael Keaton, for Beetlejuice to enter the picture. So it was really important. I understood right at the top that I have to say in the first minute and a half, what's going to happen in 40 minutes? Like, say, be patient.

This is coming. Right, right, right. And the same thing when I was doing To Die For for Gus Van Zandt. People seemed to be not sure, is this a dark comedy or is this really a, you know, serious? And I had to say right in the beginning,

no, no, no, dark comedy. It's okay. You can chuckle at this. Now, do you make these decisions or is this something that you make these decisions or does this something that you do with the director no no everything's with the director right of course i mean i i i feel it and i explain it like that and tim was like you know tim was always like sure just go with it yeah and gus is even like man you're the composer really yeah it's interesting

to me that directors you know generally hire people people they know can do the job the way they want them to do it without them having to tell them to do it. Well, that doesn't keep directors from telling you how to do it frequently. But in these cases, we were in the same page. Because otherwise, you can't sell an idea to a director if they don't agree. Have you ever just been like, fuck it. I can't do this job. Who do I fuck to get off this film yeah yeah like what did i do yeah yeah i've had a couple of those moments of like oh my god this is like and look i'm a masochist any successful composer you meet is a masochist because the pain level on a

big film with a neurotic director that's getting squeezed themselves. And you got to understand every director starts out really confident. By the end, when we come on, they're being torn apart. They're being previewed. The studio, everybody's coming at them. So you got to feel for them. They're in a battle. Right.

And your job is to support your general, to be support in that battle. Right. You're like, okay, I'll be your lieutenant. I'm right there for you. Yeah. But sometimes it's rough. Yeah. And occasionally it's so rough that it's like, oh my God, get me out of here.

You know, usually you navigate through. That it's like, oh, my God, get me out of here. You know, usually you navigate through. I've only left a few times where it was like, just this is going to be. I'm just going to take a fucking gun to my head. Yeah. Before this movie's over. Right.

And my pain tolerance on a film is high. You have to work, though. Yeah. You must. You know, like I've always I've had this argument with my wife, you know you're a workaholic no I'm not a workaholic I just have a lot of shit I gotta get done yeah it's different why does she want you to work less yeah you know yeah come on take a break I know I can't I gotta listen I got this thing I got this commission and I got to do these and I'm writing a

script and I'm doing these songs for this show. And it's just too many things that I want to do. Well, what's the most satisfying thing that you do? Oh, man. I mean, in terms of like as a musician at this point, is it these, do you like playing? Because it seems like between Nightmare Before Christmas, the Batman movies, Pee Wee, and the Simpsons theme, I mean, you've had a profound influence on the subconscious of a generation of people a little younger than me, right? So you've had this amazing impact culturally. I mean, the Simpsons theme in and of itself has probably played thousands of times a day somewhere in the world every day.

And I thought nobody would see that show. Seriously. It was so weird. When I saw it, it's like, I'm doing this just for fun. Yeah. Because no one's going to see this thing. But, I mean, I have to imagine that that thing alone has generated a good chunk of income for you. Well, yeah.

I mean, at first I was shocked because it's Fox. Yeah. And I remember there was a point when I had like two animated shows on the network. Yeah. Like a Beetlejuice cartoon or a Batman cartoon and The Simpsons. Yeah. And like each of those cartoons would play, I'd get like $700. And like The Simpsons would play, I'd get $11.50.

And I called my agent. I go, what the fuck? And he says, oh, you know, Fox has a sweetheart deal. They're not a network. Right. But what I did was the smartest, not knowing it was smart thing I ever did, was I sang the Simpsons. Yeah.

And that was, I got into SAG and I sang those three syllables. Yeah. And that kept me in income and insured health insurance for the rest of my life. Like who would know? The Simpsons. Yeah, those three syllables. Wow. So that actually generated-

That's crazy. Quite a bit, aside from the smaller revenue that the- But I can't complain at all. I mean, considering I expected no one to see the show, yeah, I've gotten a good amount from the Simpsons over many years. When you look back on like, and I don't like this question when I get it, but like, what, what are you like most proud of a nightmare before Christmas? Really? I don't know. Really?

I mean, in terms of life's work. It's hard. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah. You know, and I probably would answer differently on different days yeah yeah yeah

I mean Nightmare is up there right because I worked harder on that than most scores you know that was like a two year project

you know not a three month project oh you've done all these Tim ones you did Sleepy Hollow too huh yeah that's a crazy movie

I think so I love that movie 17 films with him now I think yeah Sleepy Hollow was fun I really enjoyed that are you guys pals well I mean movie. I love that movie. 17 films with him now, I think. Yeah, Sleepy Hollow was fun. I really enjoyed that. Are you guys pals? He lives in England. I live here. We don't hang

out together, but I talk with him. And he's like a relative, like a brother. We went to a point when I got really mad at him and I left a movie and we didn't speak for over a year. And it's like volatile i think it had to happen somewhere in this massively

long period of time you know two personalities like us and like me and i was more hot-headed back then than i i'm better now yeah mellowed a bit mellowed a bit. Mellowed a bit. But the fact is, um, in that time, I missed him in the same way that, you know, I've had fights with my brother.

We didn't speak to each other a long period of time, but at a certain point, that's like, I miss him. Yeah. He's my brother. Yeah.

And, uh, it was similar. Are you guys tight now, your brother? Yeah. Yeah. We are.

And now, and when Tim and I, we've joked, we would end up like Hitchcock and Herman. Yeah. Because of the famous combination of Alfred Hitchcock, Bernard Herman, and they had a misunderstanding and they never spoke again. Oh, yeah. And we were like, we're going to end up like Hitchcock and Herman. And then we did. But we came together again and we've never had an issue.

That's nice. Yeah. And you seem to work a lot with Raimi, too. Yeah, I'm working with him coming up. Oh, yeah? Yeah, Doctor Strange 2. How's he? He's nice.

Is he a good guy? Oh, my God. Raimi is the nicest guy on the planet. I like that movie that your wife was in. Was that the first one? Simple Plan. That's where I met her. Is it?

Yeah. Yeah. I like that movie. Yeah. I love Simple Plan. It was really good. And Billy Bob Thornton was good. Yeah. I like that movie. Yeah. I love Simple Plan. It was really good. And Billy Bob Thornton was good. Yeah.

And Bill Paxton. Bill Paxton. Yeah. It was a great little cast, you know? Yeah. Did he do that movie, The Gift? He did The Gift. Yeah.

I didn't work on The Gift. I have a cameo in The Gift. You do? Yeah, which mostly got cut out, thank God, Because he put me with a fiddle in a swamp as like a hillbilly fiddler with all this beard. And Cate Blanchett is on the bridge and I'm supposed to deliver lines. And I go, no, Sam, don't make me do lines. No, no, no, buddy, you'll be fine. Here, I got you a vocal coach because you have to do them in this Appalachian dialect.

And I go, I can't fucking. And I'm sitting there in the swamp with my fiddle trying to deliver lines and I'm fucking it up over and over. And you're in a swamp. And I'm in a swamp. And I reached, it was the one point I remember, Scotty, beam me up right now, please. Just send that beam down and go, take me right up to the Enterprise. I need to get out of here.

But you didn't use it? They just left me. They just left me. And all the actors are sitting there kind of watching the side going, oh, man. This is a bit part. It should take five minutes and we're all waiting. Oh, it was the worst. You forgave him for it?

I forgave him for it, but I'll never do another acting part in my life. You did a few, right? No. I'm the worst actor on the planet. Oh, the band was in a couple. Yeah, but acting I can't do. Yeah. And I just, if I have to speak lines on camera, every muscle in my face is a separate entity.

It's like I'm a Portuguese man o' war with all these different organisms. You get hyper self-conscious and nervous. My eyes don't know what my mouth, what's my right hand doing? Oh shit, what's my left hand doing? There's so many things to think about. I know, yeah. What do I do with my hands? What do I do with my hands?

There's a comedian that talks about that. Jim Norton, I think. I don't know how actors act natural on the camera. And you've done it. I do it, yeah. You act really natural. And I don't get it. I don't understand.

Acting natural on camera is a beautiful art that is like heart. For me, that's like it would be as difficult as learning how to become a nuclear physicist. I guess so. But do you do anything to meditate or anything or anything i can't really meditate right so you don't do when i'm writing i get into a state that's like that yeah i think yeah but uh yeah i don't know what it is like i think it's just one of those things either you can do it or you can't the on-camera thing yeah it's weird because like i see almost a natural thing you know and i see like comedians uh frequently get on camera and go wow he's really good you know he's

been on stage thing is a whole different thing but here he's in front of a camera it's really good just natural it's a weird thing to to shut off that stuff, which I think your brain works the opposite way. You're turning on a lot of things. Whereas when you're on a set and I got to just talk to you, you've got to be able to just talk to you and not even do this. But you look completely relaxed all the time on camera. Like there's no camera there. Like in Glow, you mean? Or like on the in the yeah your

show oh my show yeah well that took a while i knew that first season would be like i'd look a little stilted but then it got better i didn't think you look stilted you look just like natural and um i'm always surprised you know it's like sometimes like common you know singers different people like that get them on camera and it's like, really? They love it. Yeah. I have to learn how to love it more. Because I talk to actors too.

There are people that really kind of like do the thing. With me, I'm just like, I'm just going to focus on what I'm doing in front of me. I'm not sitting there going like, the camera loves me. It's like, I just got to, you know. And how actors do love scenes. Yeah, it's weird.

You know, like a good love scene with a camera four feet away from you. I've been thinking about, I've done a couple of those and I, you know,

I've really gotta work on my style with the kissing. I think there's, you gotta be aware of their stuff. I don't know how you do it. I just,

all I can say is I'm in awe. Oh, I don't know how you do what you do, so it is I'm in awe. I don't know how you do what you do. You're writing orchestral things. I'm learning how to smoke fish in my house. Good things that we're

not being forced to switch careers. What's the plan now? You're going to try to get those gigs back and get on the road and do the orchestra stuff? I'm just waiting for them to start up again. They haven't started coming at you? Well, a little bit. I mean, we just announced Halloween.

That's the first. Halloween is the first date, live date. Where is that at? That's going to be at, it's called the Bank of California Stadium. Here? Yeah. In LA? Yeah, downtown.

Oh, great. I'd like to go there. You're going to run the movie and play the. Oh, yeah. Every song, note for note. And that's when people show up as characters? They often, yeah. Yeah.

Not always, but- And this is going to be in October? I think the 29th of October, yeah. Halloween weekend. And that's something you like to do. Yeah. You know, the first time, I thought it was impossible. I mean, here's how this started.

It was like inadvertent. I agreed to do the Elfman Burton Suites. And at some point, my agent who was producing, he says, will you sing some songs from Nightmare for the Nightmare suite? I go, yeah, I'll do that. But I say it without thinking about it. And now six months later, I'm creating all the suites super hard. And I get to Nightmare before Christmas and I do this all instrumental. And I call him up. I said, did I say I was going to sing? He goes, yeah. I go, oh, I'm not going to did i say i was going to sing yeah he goes yeah i go oh i'm not going to sing i'm not going to sing well they've already advertised it oh fuck gotta sing and then i hadn't sung in 18 years wow and i'm at albert hall doing a show that

never rehearsed in front of an audience no trials no in london in london no idea if any of it's going to work and i'm going to sing for the first time in 18 years and i'm in front of the fucking stage door and going i'm not going to be able to do this i froze up it's like i am just going to like hit a bar and disappear and they'll they won't know where to find me i mean i don't know what i'm going to do i can't walk out there and helena bonham carter bless her heart she was doing Sally yeah and she was sitting on the floor all kind of loose and floppy getting into ragdoll character and she goes Denny I go yeah she goes what's the matter I go I don't think I could walk out there she goes Denny what the fuck and that's all I needed to hear it was like exactly exactly. Thank you. What the fuck?

And I walked out there and I had the best time of my life. Because they all love it. But I didn't know that. Oh, right. I'd never done it before. Of course. And I'd never even performed in England. Yeah.

I had images. The way my mind works is that I had an image of being tarred and feathered and being driven out of town on a rail. That's how I imagine the English audience. Sounds like part of a Tim Burton movie. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I get out there and the audience was, oh my God, I forgot what it was like to have

an audience that's, I don't need a safety net. They're my safety net. If I fucked up, they'll be fine with it. It was like this feeling of like, it's okay. Yeah. Do your thing. Yeah. If you goof up, do it again.

Right. You'll be fine with it. Yeah. And I'm so grateful to them. Yeah. That audience in London at the Albert Hall got me rewired that I could come out on stage again. Yeah. I can do this.

And that has stuck with you. It stuck with me. I forgot how great it feels when you connect with your audience and you feel it's okay to make a mistake. Yes. Yeah. It's great to have an audience and then to realize they're forgiving and they love what you do.

They love exactly right. And it's like they totally forgive you. Yeah. You screw something up and you have to you do. They love, exactly right. And it's like, they totally forgive you. Yeah, yeah. You screw something up and you have to like recover. Yeah. Fine. Yeah, yeah. It's almost better because then they're sort of like, they saw something happen that didn't

happen anywhere else. Exactly. And as my wife says, you know, you're going out there without a net. Enjoy that because that's the beauty of what you're doing. Yeah. And then I realized at that moment, they are my net. it's beautiful well good man well i hope that a lot of that happens in the near future yeah yeah it was great talking to you hey it was really fun i really enjoyed this thank you yeah that guy is busy man man. He's busy.

Danny Elfman, Big Mess. The record will be out. The record. The new album. The CD. Whatever. It's not a CD. It's not a record.

It's out next Friday, June 11th. You can get it wherever you get the music. Also, L.A. people are people willing to travel. His live Nightmare Before Christmas stage concert is back this year.'s on friday october 29th at bank of california stadium okay okay let's let's let's play Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

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