WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1237 - Ellen Burstyn

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

Ellen Burstyn doesn't stop working. She's an Emmy, Oscar, and Tony winner with iconic performances in everything from The Last Picture Show and Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore to The Exorcist and Requiem for a Dream, but as Ellen tells Marc, stopping acting just isn't in the cards. They talk about the sea changes in Hollywood, her collaborations with dynamic creators like Martin Scorsese and Jackie Gleason, and her lead role in the new movie Queen Bees. Plus, Tom Scharpling is back so you can Get To Know Tom. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies

what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron that is my name did i just space it for a second is that happening did i just have a mild brain skid, brain fart situation where for a split second, I didn't know my name. Do me a favor, please. Let me have that freedom. Is that from the meditation? Is that, is that what you get when you really get deep into it? When you tap into the big nothing, when you hitch a ride on the big frequency, empty your brain that you don't even know who you are. You're just a free spirit floating through space from your room.

Is that what happens? Because man, if that was it, I want to hold on to that. I want to have some control over not knowing who I am for a second, you know, in the way where it's because, you know, my brain is so wide open that I'm actually space traveling, not because, you know,

I'm having some sort of identity crisis and think I'm a fraud, because I'm familiar with that school of meditation. Not great. Not great. That selflessness is not helpful, the kind where you destroy everything about your sense of who you are out of complete self-loathing and insecurity until you're just a screaming nothing alone in your room, not even sitting in a Lotus, just alone, screaming nothing. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Welcome. Are you about to doze off? Was that helpful? Hey, look, I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about. Ellen Burstyn is on the show and she's amazing. She's an Oscar, Emmy and Tony

winner. She's been in, Emmy, and Tony winner. She's been in everything from Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore to The Last Picture Show to Requiem for a Dream and, of course, The Exorcist. And she has the lead role in this new movie, Queen Bees, which is actually, in and of itself, worth talking about because Hollywood doesn't make a lot of fun movies starring and about seniors. There's stuff happening on this front. There's the Kaminsky method.

I talked to Michael Douglas about that. And that's a, that's some of the, the oldies doing their thing. Is that, is that a, is that a slang? That's not right. The oldies. Is that bad? I don't even know, but I'll tell you, it's amazing to watch these actors work at this point in their lives i mean on the darker side if you watch the father with anthony hopkins which is astounding um not a

comedy not funny kind of menacing in a way and it's depiction of alzheimer's or dementia i think they're different not positive maybe i should just look it up i will after this but uh but that that performance was astounding and in this movie it's it's kind of i think it's mean girls only they're they're senior citizens uh in a in a retirement community but i i i think it's basically mean girls there's a the the cast is ellen burston and Margaret James Kahn Loretta Devine Jane Curtin Christopher Lloyd is in it French Stewart who I haven't seen in a long time is in it and some other there's other people in it but the core group is Ann Margaret Loretta Devine and Jane Curtin they play the queen bees Ellen Burstyn is a newbie at the retirement place and

B's Ellen Burstyn is a newbie at the retirement place and uh James Caan comes in as sort of a a slightly damaged love interest and and Christopher Lloyd is the uh the uh the hot catch at the retirement center but these are great actors it's just amazing to see them doing the work I mean I interviewed James Can and that guy's an animal, man. That guy is like, you know, just, he's like all in and he's a lot. And, uh, and he just turned, he toned, I talked to Ellen about this. He, he toned it down, locked in. It was astounding to me because I've been looking, paying a lot more attention to acting as I do a little more of it myself. paying a lot more attention to acting as I do a little more of it myself. And to see these actors working at this level in their 70s and 80s,

it's sort of fascinating that there is a craft. There is a bunch of tools that they engage in order to do what it is they do. And it was great to watch. And I think that the seniors will enjoy it. I enjoy it. I enjoy it. I thought it was a cute movie. It's a cute picture. A cute picture. Also, in a few minutes, we're going to do a segment with Tom Sharpling, another Get to Know Tom with Tom Sharpling segment.

That will be coming up. We'll try to get some good dirt out of him from his new book this time. I'm going to keep pushing. I keep pushing. Do you know what I mean? Look, I went to Whole Foods yesterday and right when I walked in,

I saw the melons there. So I picked up, I started doing my thing. Doing my thing with the watermelons. Holding them up to my head, putting my ear on them, knocking them, seeing started doing my thing, doing my thing with the watermelons, holding them up to my head, putting my ear on them, knocking them, seeing if they're good, if they sound hollow, if they feel heavy. And I picked one and then I wandered around, did the rest of my shopping. I bought meat at the meat counter. And I was in the store for at least 25 minutes and I get to the checkout and the woman at checkout goes, you have a sticker on your ear so in my hair in my hair right by my ear there was a watermelon

sticker um and no one said anything I bought meat from a guy and I had a sticker on my ear nothing people just let me walk around I guess that's what you do because, you know, you don't know what, who wants to take the chance and who wants to step up and say, Hey buddy, you got a watermelon sticker on your ear because what are the odds of me going like, Oh shit, that's embarrassing. Thank you, man. Thank you for telling me. Or maybe I want it that way. Maybe you should mind your own fucking business. You know, I usually have a sticker on each of my ears, a watermelon sticker, but I thought forgot to to put the other one on this morning are you judging me are you judging me i can't walk around with stickers on my head i mean what

kind of fucking world is this who the fuck are you i live the life i want to live i've i've earned it this is what my freedom looks like i i have stickers on my head so you know thank you but no thank you. What are the odds of that happening? Slim. But is that what holds people back? Or they just don't want to get involved? I don't know. Hey, people, look. tom's back it's it's time again for get to know tom where we all learn

a little bit more about tom sharpling our friend and author of the new book it never ends why am i saying it like that maybe a different delivery on that hey wait our friend and author of the new book it never ends i can do many reads i think we're gonna uh just have fun with the next one our friend go crazy with the third i think we got it yeah so why don't you just do one for gonzo go gonzo with this okay all right hold on our friend and author of the new book it never ends and then they go A and B on that what does that mean?

it just means not that last one like when they're doing their select let's go with A and B on that one available for pre-order at tomwroteabook.com so look some of you know Tom Sharpling some of you don't he's the host of the best show that was previously on WFMU,

and now you can get it at bestshow.com. Thebestshow.net. Do we have the same server or something? I think we do. I think we're connected through Martine. Right, but, you know, sometimes I get your sort of, like, weird updates. Oh, yeah, that's probably not supposed to be happening. No, I know, and I didn't know why,

but no, they don't mean anything. They happen late at night. It's something that the sites do. And I get like nine things to do, like wtfpod.com. And then occasionally I'll get, it doesn't mean anything. It's all computer code. I don't know what it does. And anytime I've panicked about it, it has nothing to do with anything. But hold on. It definitely happens. I forgot to ask Brendan about it. I didn't know why it was happening. Like here on Monday, I've got three C-panels. And I'm like, all right, well, that's just the way it goes at night.

And then every once in a while, I get like a C-panel best show. And I'm like, should I call Tom and make him worry about this? But I don't. No, we're okay. We're okay. Ignore them. Yeah, that tom and make him worry about this but i don't no we're okay we're okay ignore them yeah that's what i do i just i don't know why it doesn't matter it's good to see you yeah it's good just great again i just want to make clear that uh you know we've been friends a while i'm not even i don't i'm not even sure how it how it happened but but it was late it was late in our lives yeah it was um we're not childhood friends no we didn't grow up together in new jersey or new mexico but we um i'm kind of jersey

you are jersey you you have your do you feel like i'm jersey no i get it you you definitely i know that budweiser factory you were i think you were born behind no no that's where my grandparents are buried close that's right. That's right. Okay. Well. And my great uncle's dentist office, Abe, who was married to my grandfather's sister, Totsie, and they had the dentist's office in the house, was there in Linden. Okay. Linden, yeah.

Yeah, right there off Route 1. Yeah. But I met you when you were writing on Monk, right? Yes. Or no, was it i was i was writing but we were kind of you had wtf i had the best show and there was all this internet chatter going on and people were basically pitting us together to see who could fight with each other and all i knew about you was your uh at your your sort of twitter avatar it was just this weird profile drawing and i'm like who is

that guy yeah and it just said sharp wing and i thought you were some like i thought you had like uh you know like you you had some sort of uh like you were like a veteran like you just had a lot of weight to you like you're you know like you were the you were the peak and i was just there's no way you could like oh well no that was so, I had been seeing you for so many years, and eating it and all these things. Yeah, and you're just a guy. And then there's the time I went up to you, and I saw you doing Jerusalem Syndrome, maybe?

Oh, yeah. Oh, that's right. That, right. Right, at the West Beth. Yeah, and I was like, hey, I'd really like to join you. And you went, yeah. That was before we were friends. That was before.

But I just want to make people make sure they know. Because I read in the book, I learned a lot of stuff about you that I didn't know. Like, really surprising stuff. Like, I don't think anybody knows. I think you surprised yourself. Oh, I was ready to take so much of this to the grave. Really? Absolutely. yourself you know i i was ready to take so much of this to the grave really absolutely and it was just a matter of i wasn't gonna i'd never talked about it on the radio or any podcast a lot of stuff a lot of stuff and you've got thousands of fans yeah and and they don't know any of this no

it's all all new but do you think some of them are gonna be like yeah see it's not the guy i no i think they'll just gonna to be like oh get over here yeah come here buddy that sounded hard i think a few friends who have read it said like now i get it yeah they're like okay there's the missing pieces of that puzzle yeah okay but you like you've been but you were you were really going to be a writer it sounded like i mean you were really going to be a writer, it sounded like. I mean, you were writing, what was it, basketball? I wrote for basketball magazines and just MTV commercials. But you were like a kid. Absolutely, yeah.

I was just trying to get my foot in the door any which way. I was working at a store, and then I left the, I was working at a sheet music store. Oh, yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah. For a long time. Yeah. a sheet music store oh yeah yeah right right yeah and for a long time yeah you know like i knew you were a writer but i just thought like when i found out you wrote about you wrote monk for like years right yeah it was eight seasons i was there all of it from the i was working as

an assistant to the guy that created the show and i remember when he was like i have this tv show hopefully it goes and if it goes you'll be the first person that gets hired and then it did go and i was the first person that got hired i thought that was a great part of the story about like sort of like breaks and show business or like you know how one pays their dues like i think people that that don't know you can sort of uh you know get a sense of of the struggle but like like when i found out you wrote for monk i'm like oh he's like a legit show business because I'm putting this together

before I knew you. Really? Sure. I'm like, so he did that before the best show? But no, you did it all during.

Simultaneously. So the best show I was not making a nickel off of. So my day job was writing for TV and Monk was my first job and I was there for the whole run of the show.

And that was the OCD detective. Yes. With the Shalhoub. With the Shalhoub. With Tony Shalhoub. Yeah. Great guy. The best. Nicest guy ever.

Yeah. Couldn't, will never meet another actor as generous as he was. And like, I'm trying to remember in the book, was there, were there problems with anybody? Yeah, there was problems. There was an incident that, I mean, it's better off you read the book, but there was some jealousy over winning awards, and then there was a little bit of a stage event, and it turned into a thing or another thing.

It's probably better off in the full stories in the book. Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. I mean, that was a good tease i guess i mean yeah i think i think that's fair but but also like well i mean i think the most surprising stuff is really uh you know when you were younger you know oh yeah well i mean that's the stuff that i um i truly for for all until the last couple months i could count on one hand the amount of people that knew some of those stories right like just your parents just my parents and uh sister and yeah yeah i mean when i i mean you didn't even tell me you know oh you didn't even tell me like you

give me any heads up i'm just reading this manuscript hoping it's good so i can be earnest when i say it was good yeah you didn't have to say hey man that that one chapter yeah that one chat that one looks like you had so much fun writing it like those those those those opinion dodges that people can do i didn't uh I didn't know a lot of that stuff. Yeah. I'd be like, well, what'd you think of how I... Oh, man, I really saw it, you know? Like, I could really feel it.

Good descriptions. Good descriptions. What is it, like 270, 280? How many pages is this thing going to be? Is this the whole book? Yeah. That font. That's an amazing font. Easy to read. Yeah.

Blue right through it. The blurb would be, great font. Great. Good choice in the fonts. No, it was great, but like, you know, I mean, that stuff in high school, right? Yeah, there was. I mean, it was great, but that stuff in high school, right? Yeah, there was.

I mean, that was traumatic. I mean, heavy, right? There's heavy stuff that shaped everything for me going forward, and it's stuff that I also swallowed, basically, to be able to just keep going. You hit it. Yeah. There's things where you can either face it or you can kind of tamp it down.

And the only course for me was to tamp it down. But now I'm at a point where it's just like I can't keep tamping it down anymore. So it's the other whole. Yeah. Well, again, it's in the it's in the book and i think it works best it's crazy yeah but you know that i mean just being at that place right it was very scary yeah how old were you 18 wow yeah and then and then the yeah your parents all right yeah again i think it works best if people read it

in the book all right um okay i just it'd be kind of a yeah no i get it i get it but i just all right okay all right all right all right all right so uh are you enjoying Los Angeles yeah I like it it's yeah I like Los Angeles it's a lot of good yeah food

really I think so I think there's good food which I I mean did I shut you I mean is there well no no

I just I just okay there's just there's a line where certain things I feel I would be happy to discuss and other

things I feel like play better within the context of the entirety of the book. Okay. No, I understand that. I'm just trying to help you sell it as a friend. I'm not trying to sandbag you. No, no, I did. It's in the book. It's in the book.

Absolutely, yes. But you'd rather people just read it in the book than burn it. Well, that's, all right. Yeah. I guess it's because I've read it and I know it. And I think like, man, let's just talk about that fucking. I know. It's dark, man.

It is. It's dark. But the way you handled it in the book, there was funny parts, there was dark parts. parts there's dark parts but like just the fact that like there's a whole chunk of your life that is yeah was private for this okay all right fine and is yeah yeah um all right no it's good can we do this one more time i mean i i know this may be stressing a little bit but let's let's do it again so we'll go we'll one more time. But in the meantime, go order the book. All right? Go order the book.

It never ends. A memoir with nice memories by Tom Sharpley. You can get it at tomwroteabook.com. And you'll know why he's... All right. You brought a pie? I did. i brought some pies blueberry pie all right all right we gotta figure out something for you okay all right all right okay okay all right i guess uh we'll try this one more time next week we'll do another segment of get to know tom

i don't want to pressure him but man there's some good stories in the book. All right? Okay? Okay, we'll just wait until next week, and maybe he'll come around on it, on at least one story. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter. You can order the book.

Then you'll know the stories at TomWroteABook.com, and it comes out officially on July 6th. What a treat it was to talk to Ellen Burstyn. We were on Zoom, but she was right there, fully present, engaged, amazing memory, amazing to see her. She looked great. The new movie, Queen Bees, is now playing in theaters and on demand. It stars Ellen Burstyn, James Caan, Jane Curtin, and Anne Margaret.

And this is Ellen Burstyn, James Kahn, Jane Curtin, and Anne Margaret. Goal tenders? No. But chicken tenders? Yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only disney plus we live and we die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hello. Hello. How are you, Ellen? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. You look very nice.

Thank you. Where are you? I am in Los Angeles. I'm in New York. And you live in New York? I do. All the time? Yeah. I mean, I haven't always lived here, but I lived here the last six years, maybe. Oh, oh really were you out here before that no i was in the country i was upstate oh you avoid la i've lived in la a couple of times but it's never my favorite place yeah well you know i grew up in michigan so i'm used to four seasons right so it's a seasonal thing, not the people? Well, the people are, you know, in my business, it's the same people. They're on both coasts all the time.

So it's not the people. It's, of course, the atmosphere of the business, you know, business, business, business. Right, right, right. But it's really the, I need leaves to fall off the trees. Yes. Yeah. I do miss it. And it's really that I need leaves to fall off the trees. Yes. Yeah. I do miss it.

There's two seasons out here. There's chili and fire. That's all there is. Oh, God. Oh, God. I hope this year is better than last year. I do, too. So I watched the new movie. I thought it was very fun.

Yeah? Yeah, I did did did you have fun i did actually it was a fun movie to shoot i it's one of those movies that well first of all michael lembeck the director is a fun guy and he keeps this he keeps this set moving and happy and um you know in in it's there's not a lot of negative vibes around right and then and then the actors were all wonderful you know i was i was so like uh kind of uh well you know the the conceit of of of this the the seniors at this place it's sort of like a a bad girls kind of almost like a high school movie you know based at a at at this uh at this place where where you all live but so the conceit was kind of cute but i was

really uh moved by people really showing up and doing the work i mean i've interviewed james khan and that guy is like he's a lot and he really kind of and he really you know he's a lot. And he really kind of, and he really, you know. That's a great way to describe James Caan. He's a lot. But he really kind of turned it off and focused and, you know, really did the work. I mean, it was beautiful to see. Yeah. Yeah.

And did you know him? You've worked with him before. No. Never. First time. No. Did you know him. No. Never. First time. No. Did you know him? No.

Wow. We had met once. Yeah. But I didn't know him. No. How was it to work with him? I mean, I can't. Well, he and I had really good chemistry.

We got into the relationship and we played we played with each other that's all i ask of an actor is play with me yeah oh yeah you know so you can feel it yeah and he did oh that's great because i found when i talked to him like uh you know his i think he's got a very acute uh natural sense and a good ability to read people he sort of prides himself on that because like i watched like i watched stuff of his all the way back you know to like the rain people and i guess you guys i mean he was with sandy meisner where did you start at in terms of acting well i i was a model and i thought eventually i was going to be an actress and then one day i decided it was time and i said okay i made up my mind i'm going to do a broadway play this fall how do i get an audition yeah and i said that to everybody i met and somebody said

i know somebody who's looking for a girl to play a model in a play. And I said, okay. And I went on stage and auditioned for the part. And it was my first time on a stage, I mean, a Broadway stage. And I got the part. So I started with the lead on Broadway before I went to a class or anything. Really? And you had not done it when you were a kid or anything? Well, a little.

We put on plays in my garage, but I'm not sure that counts. My brother and I. It all counts. Who were the audiences for the big garage plays? Your parents? Some kids from the neighborhood? Yeah. Right. People next door you know yeah sure what now what part of michigan's you grew up in detroit detroit was like a great city right

well the for the automobile industry almost everybody you knew was connected to cars either making them or selling them or repairing them or, you know. Is that what your family did? Your dad or? No. No. When you say dad to me, that involves a lot of different people. Oh, really?

Yeah. Why is that? I don't have a straight answer to that question. How many dads do you have? None. None. But my mother had four husbands. Oh my gosh.

But none of them were your actual father? Her first husband was my actual father. Oh, okay. But I don't know him. Oh, and you never did? We met, but there wasn't what you'd call a relationship. Wow. So you had to have these relationships for every few years that you get remarried, or how did that work?

Well, her third husband, she was married the longest, too. And he's the one that I lived with at the same time she was married to him. Right. And he was the father of my younger brother. He was a very good father to his son. Uh-huh. But my older brother, who is from the same father I was. Yeah.

We were not his favorite people, let's say. Oh, that's tough. You know what? Everybody's got something, right? Yeah, for sure. Everybody's got some kind of backstory. Yeah. And I figure it's what you do with it and how you, you know, get conscious.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, being a human, there's nothing unusual about anybody's sort of tragedy or emotional difficulties in life. you know, being a human, there's nothing unusual about anybody's sort of tragedy or, or emotional difficulties in life. I mean, yeah, like you said, everybody's got one. And eventually, yeah, either you, you spend your life feeling sorry for yourself, or you just, you know, realize it's just part of your life. Right. Yeah. And I think of it like, computer programming, you know, you get the computer gets programmed and then at a certain

age you go do i like my programming or do i want to reprogram this computer and then you know if you if you make the decision to straighten out all the bumpy parts and deal with them and go into therapy or whatever is your method yeah that's how you get conscious you know so yeah you make different choices and then and then one day it all comes flushing back into your head and you have a minor nervous breakdown and then you just wait till it passes that's right you get over it. Oh, I remember that horrible thing. Now I'm going to just have breakfast. So, okay.

So did you leave Michigan like as soon as you could kind of deal? On my 18th birthday, I left home. So, yes. That's when I was left. Well, I left the house. Yeah. And then within the year, I left Detroitroit and went to texas of all places texas somebody i was a model and somebody said said to me because i was i wanted to go somewhere

i wanted to start my life i wanted to see the world and i was trying to figure out where to go and i wasn't ready for Hollywood or New York. Right. And Chicago just seemed like big Detroit. So I was trying to find where to go. And somebody said, oh, Neiman Marcus won the advertising award that year. And we were reading about it in the models dressing room where I work. And one of the other models said, that's where you should go,

Edna. And I said, where? And she said, Texas, they like your type there. I said, what's my type? And she said, the all-American girl. And I got so happy that I had a type, that I fit in somewhere, that they like me somewhere. So I got in a Greyhound bus and went to Texas. What were Dallas? Dallas and Fort Worth and Houston. I worked in all three. You did catalog modeling? No.

You know, it was like in a hotel when the buyers come to town and see the lines and I model. Oh, right. And then in a hotel when the buyers come to town and see the lines and oh right and then in a department store everyone's going to texas now and it bothers me you know people are like you got to go to austin i'm like it's still texas but uh everybody loves austin i know it's four blocks though i mean yeah for how long and and it seems to be without getting into politics it seems to be a little liberal enclave in the midst of yeah yeah i call it the hipster alamo that's good you're still surrounded by texas now did you well i mean was there anything in your mind that was left over from

your experience in Texas that you took into The Last Picture Show? I imagine it was a different Texas. Well, it was a different life, but it was very familiar. Yeah. It was very familiar. I didn't have, when I left Detroit, I didn't have the idea I'm going to be an actress. Sure. I have what I, my ambition was to see the world. Right, right. And the more exotic, the better. Anything that showed a different way of life than what I knew. So I saw the world as Texas for a while.

And then I was ready for New York. And that was it. So it was Texas and then New York. That was the world that you saw. At the moment. Yeah. But in the meantime, I've seen a lot of world. I bet.

So when you get to New York, you model for a bit and then you do the play. And then when do you start actually working with the actor's studio? That wasn't for... See, I opened on Broadway in 1957. Wow. And I worked from then on as an actress doing guest shots on TV. Was all that New York? Were they shooting all those shows in New York? Were you going back and forth on propeller planes and stuff? No, I shot in New York for a while. And well, I also, wait a minute.

I worked in a nightclub as a chorus girl in Montreal. Really? Yeah. Did your manager just, your agent just get you that gig? Manager, agent, what are you talking about? You know, I was, does anybody know how I can get a job? Right. At school for a while.

But you'd already done Broadway and you're doing a Chorus Girl gig in Montreal? No, Chorus Girl was before Broadway. And that was when I was still a model. And that was just a nightclub gig? Yeah. Like behind a comedian or was it a show or was it a model. And that was just a nightclub gig? Yeah. Like behind a comedian or was it a show or was it a variety show? How does that work? It was

well, Dick Van Dyke was a comedian. He was an act. He had an act at that time where he worked with another guy and they mimed records like opera singers.

Right. They were very funny. So we had two dance numbers. Yeah. And one of them was Vic Marilyn and his enchanted strings. Yeah. And he was a violinist, and he had a group of girls playing the violin, and they played Med meditation from Thais.

And then we came on like ballerinas and we had fake white violins and we took their place and danced where they had actually been playing. And then our other number was a gaucho act where we did a lot of stomping and clicking our fingers black satin did you know how to do these dances you just learned them well i was a sort of a dancer right i mean i i was on points when i was three yeah yeah oh okay yeah and um i was an acrobat oh really um yeah so so i could you, I was a backline faker. Yeah. Nobody was going to have me be the star of the nightclub act. But so that's a hell of an introduction in the show business. I always like, yeah, not everybody had the experience of doing something gritty.

There's something about nightclub work that's very gritty and it introduces you to an element of show business that you never quite forget. And it really is a kind of visceral and human. There's something about being backstage at a nightclub. When I do comedy now, I'm like, this is really what show business is about, is that moment before you go on stage. I think that happens in theater, too, right? Where you're just sort of like, I'm about to do it. Yeah. Oh, absolutely'm about to do it. Oh, absolutely. I was so tense. This is funny. I was so tense when I went on the first time dancing in the number. so dry that my lip stuck to my gum and when I got off stage I couldn't make it go down yeah one of the other girls grabbed a lemon

from the bowl in the kitchen and said suck on this and I sucked on the lemon and then I could get my lip down off my gum Thank God the kitchen was right there. Thank God, really. But I learned what to do in case your lip ever gets stuck on your gum. Sure. And you learn how to, like, you know, take the stage. I just think it's so funny that this amazing thing that we do as entertainers, you always got to walk through the kitchen. that we do as entertainers,

you always got to walk through the kitchen. You do like, right before the big show, there's a guy at the dish machine spraying dishes and you're like, how you doing? Here we go. I love that. But I guess I'm just curious about, so you did some theater and then you started to study

because you wanted to know how to do it better on your own. You just decided that there was a deeper thing you could do when the acting thing really started for you? You felt like you wanted to train deeper? I had a career from 57 when I started to about the middle to late 60s. Yeah. And I was cast in a movie called Goodbye Charlie, starring Debbie Reynolds and Tony Curtis and Walter Matthau.

And I was also starring. Yeah. It was a big Technicolor glitzy kind of movie. And I was sitting on stage and I said, well, this is it. This is the big time. Yeah. Next step is I'd be playing Debbie Reynolds' part. And this voice in my head that speaks to me occasionally said, I don't want it.

Yeah. Much to my surprise. And I knew what I did want all of a sudden. And this was in Hollywood. And I packed up my kid and my dog and my bags and my piano and moved back to New York and went to Lee Strasberg and got into the art of acting. It's interesting because you obviously had the looks

and a knack for being on stage and you had everything that you could do naturally but were how did you know about about strasburg i mean how why did you decide there i i knew that there was uh actors like marlon brando and jimmy dean and geraldine page yeah and i got the feeling that they knew something i didn't know. Right. And, of course, I had heard of the actor's studio, and Lee Strasberg's reputation preceded him.

And they all were actor's studio people. They all studied with Strasberg. Right. And I thought, that's where you go. If you want to learn what it is they know that I don't know. And did you learn it? I did. How long did you train directly with Lee, mostly?

And his wife, Paula was her name. I studied with both of them. And Paula was a great teacher, too. And then she died after a few years, and I continued studying with Lee. And I studied with Lee. And I studied with Lee for the rest of his life into the 80s. Really? Yeah.

Now tell me, so that would have been 20 years. What keeps growing? What do you keep going back for in terms of that particular method of acting to keep studying what what do you keep studying with that with that man what do you keep finding well let me put it this way um Horowitz the pianist practice eight hours a day every day until he died yeah and actors mostly can't get to practice except when they get a job you know so it's like if horowitz only played the piano when he had a concert yeah so you need to practice any art form it doesn't matter what it is right and that's what the actor studio offers it offers, an audience, a place to bring in a piece of work and try and develop. You know, you try and do something that you don't think you can do.

Right. You try and take on a part that really sounds very hard. So that, you've sort of, you seem to do that a lot in your career. Don't you? Challenge yourself. Well, I love challenges. I really do. I think that's how you grow.

I don't think you grow without challenging yourself. Yeah, no, absolutely. And do you feel that there were times where you fell short? Oh, of course. Are you kidding? Are there movies you've done where you're like, oof, I don't need to see that again? I was in a movie.

Yeah. I think I'll not name it. Okay. And when I saw it at the opening, I went, oh, my God. Now I know how to play that part. Oh, no. I know what I didn't do. You figured out the key. Oh, God.

It was just one of the most horrible moments of my life when I realized I'm looking at my mistake on screen. But no one else knew. No. You were just you could you could have brought another dimension to it that you, I know that feeling where you're like, I missed the key to that person. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a bad feeling. So do you find when you take on a role that that's what you're looking for first is some sort of portal into that person some sort of basic sense of that person well yeah some understanding of them as a human being and what makes them be the way they are

what they come from i always write a history of my character you do oh yeah that. That you sort of make up? Yeah. Backstory. Backstory. I write a backstory. And I make it up out of what the written character infers. Right. Sure. I keep saying, why would she do that? Interesting. Oh, she must have had this kind of experience.

You know? Wow. So i write a biography oh that's amazing so you really go line for line i guess you could say that but it's not so much that as why they do what they do sure yeah okay sure yeah why they are the way they are yeah yeah yeah yeah what are the intentions where do they come what are the intentions very good kazan said if you don't know your intention don't walk on stage really yeah he was was he at the studio when you were there oh yeah yeah definitely yeah you know he started the studio he was the creator of the studio wasn't it called something else in the beginning?

Act the Actors Theater or what was the one with Odette's in the. That's the group theater. Group theater. Right. Yeah. And that's a separate organization. But Kazan directed there. Right.

And when the group theater closed and he was established as a director, he found that he couldn't find any actors like he had at the group theater that had been trained by Strasberg. So he started the actor's studio so that he could have actors developed for him to work with, like what he was used to. So he brought in Lee then. So he had a big plan. He did, and it worked. Yeah. It seems like you've worked with a lot of formidable directing talents, some charismatic people.

I mean, was Kazan intense? Was he like, when you were around him, did you feel the sort of brilliance of that guy? Yeah. But, of course, you feel the brilliance most when you see his work because, you know, in person, he was a guy. Just a guy. You know, a nice guy. I mean, you know, an interesting guy.

But he was a guy. But then when you saw his work, you went, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty special. Yeah, because as an actor, you don't really know what they're up to until you see it. I mean, you know the scene you're doing, but you don't know how it's all going to look put together. That's for sure. Yeah. Now, would you say your biggest

break, the first break, was the last picture show in terms of movies? Yeah, I would say that. Bogdanovich is another guy. He's kind of a lot to deal with. Was he good to work with? I loved him. Yeah. Smart, right? Very smart. very tuned in understands the process um knows what actors go through it's amazing how many act directors don't know what goes on inside an actor when they're working i've worked with a director who is a very big director very successful yeah done really remarkable work yeah in film not a stage director and i told him about an event that happened internally when i was doing a play and what occurred and what I had to do inside to deal with what happened and so on and

so forth. And he said to me, you mean you can think of other things while you're acting? I almost fell over. Think of other things. My God, there's so much going on while you're acting. Yeah. I mean, you're like stoking the furnace all the time. Yeah, yeah. And that a director could be that talented and successful and wonderful and not know that actors think of other things while they're acting.

It was like a miracle to me. I couldn't imagine how they did it did you tell them that no no no no and also i get the the the king of marvin gardens was sort of that was a big movie oh it was ruined by the critics but it's a great movie i love that movie it's one of my favorites i just i get sort of i don't know if i'm nostalgic or i'm a fan or what but i i have to assume it was very exciting working with those guys at the in that era all of them bob raffleson and and nicholson and and all of them and bruce it must have been just booster you know we were all friends yeah and we were

friends before we were famous anybody and i mean when when bob raffles and who was a pal you know he and his wife is still a friend of mine when he cast me jack had been doing you know motorcycle movies for corman yeah yeah and and bruce had done some good films but there was nobody was a big star sure yeah and so we were just into the work and we loved working together i would say say. I actually studied acting with Bruce. Bruce was also a member of the Actors Studio. Right. And he did private classes. Oh, yeah.

And he was a very important stimulation to me. Oh, yeah? Because, yeah, he made me think about myself in a different way. He made me think about myself in a different way, you know, with things he said to me that was very encouraging. Oh, yeah. You seem to have a very clear memory of the whole sort of process, all the things that happened in your life. It's a real gift. Good for you.

Well, you know, I kept diaries my whole life. And then I wrote a memoir called Lessons in Becoming Myself. So I reread my diaries all the way back to the beginning, which was an astonishing experience. Really? Oh, my God. Yeah. Because of the different emotional tones you had, how you reacted to things different. Uh, like it must be like looking at a different you somewhat. I remember actually yelling at myself. I'd read a page in my diary and I'd go,

what are you crazy? Wake up girl. And then sometimes a few pages later, it looked like she heard me. It's so great. You kept diaries. It's, I don't, it's, and it just all kind of dropped into the slots of your memory, I guess. It reactivated it, huh? Oh yeah. Cause I'd forgotten a lot of stuff. And then when I read it, I went, Oh my God, I forgot about that. And yeah, it was, it was a, my God, I forgot about that. And yeah, it was it was a very enlightening, nourishing process to go through. I recommend it to anybody.

I just watched Harry and Tonto again recently. That's like a sweet movie. Why did you watch that in particular? I don't know, man. I think it was because, you know, I had some weird moments, there were weird moments, you know, during quarantine where you're like, you know, thinking about things. And I watched a lot of old movies, you know, I watched you in the extras. I watched Alice doesn't live here anymore, but I watched like for some reason, I was curious about Art Carney and I wanted to see Art Carney. I wanted to see that movie again.

But, you know, Art Carney and I knew each other from the Jackie Gleason show. Did you know I was on the Jackie Gleason show? I did. I didn't know exactly how long or what you did there or how long that went on for. I was one of the girls. Okay.

And so I was on for a year and it was live every Saturday. So I spent my Saturdays in the theater with Jackie Gleason and Art Carney and all these great comedians who would come in and take part in the show. Because Jackie wouldn't appear until showtime. Actually, dress rehearsal, but he wouldn't do the dress he would watch it yeah um from his dressing room and then he would do it live without having rehearsed which always means that it would be god knows anything yeah and wonderful yeah um so when they were timing for the dress rehearsal for his stand-up spot, which is a five-minute spot,

they would have some other comedian like Jackie Leonard come in and do his five-minute spot. Right. So I got to sit in the audience and see all these great comedians come in and do Jackie's five-minute spot. So it was one of the best trainings in, in comedy. Who do you remember seeing that was like just unbelievable? Well, Jackie Leonard for one. Oh yeah. And Jack Carter.

Oh yeah. Jack Carter. And Jack Carson. Three tracks. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is that Art Carney and I, you know,

we would like go on trips with Jackie for some kind of charity. There would be a parade in Boston and would be in and convertibles waving at the people on the street. So when so I'm in Harry and Tonto, Art Carney wins the Oscar the same year I've won for Alice doesn't live here anymore. Right. But I'm i don't go because i'm on broadway and same time next year yeah so when i came into the theater the next night the doorman says i'm holding a call for you he hands me the phone on the wall and it's jackie gleason and he says well the alumni did pretty good last night. That's one of my favorite moments hearing from him.

He was a kind of, I can't imagine what it would have been like to known him at that time. Because he was so hilarious and such a huge personality. He was an amazing person. He was just amazing. You know, we would go bowling. He'd take all the girls bowling, you know, and the other crew people on the show. And he just was a riot. I mean, I never bowled. I didn't know from bowling. And the first time I bowled, I got a strike, a spare and a strike. And the guy on our team, who I don't remember who he was, called down several lanes to where Jackie is. And he says, she just got a strike, a spare and a strike.

And she'd never bowled before. And Jackie says, OK, that's it. We're finished. We're going out to dinner. He took us all out to dinner. That's funny. So when you did Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, you were offered to direct that? Is that what I read? Well, yeah.

It was me or Marty Scorsese, and I think I chose well. How did that negotiation take place so how did you get that offer what was the story behind alice i would i was shooting the exorcist oh okay the dailies were going back we we were in new york dailies were going to uh hollywood where John Calley was the head of Warner Brothers. Yeah. And he was looking at the dailies and he called my agent and said, we'd like to do another picture with Burstyn. So they started sending me all the scripts that they had, that they owned.

And the parts were really boring. They were the old fashioned idea of what a woman is. Right. A loyal wife, a hooker with a heart of gold, a victim who gets raped. And they didn't interest me. And I said, I don't want to do any of this. This was the beginning of the women's movement. And I said, I want to do a character that's like the women I know.

So my agent found the script for Alice, sent it to me. I liked it. I sent it to them. And I said, okay, we'll do it. Who do you want to direct it? And I said, somebody new and exciting. I didn't know who that was. And I called Francis Coppola.

Yeah. And I said, who's new and exciting? And he said, look at a movie called Mean Streets. And I called Francis Coppola. Yeah. And I said, who's new and exciting? And he said, look at a movie called Mean Streets. And I looked at Mean Streets, which hadn't been released yet. And I asked to meet Marty. And he came into the office in Warner Brothers. And I said, I want to do this movie from a woman's point of view. What do you know about women?

He said, nothing nothing but i'd like to learn and i just thought that was brilliant so i hired him and god i mean he's turned out to be the master of cinema i just love and respect him so much he's so there's nobody like him such an active brain that guy oh god it's like he's like on fire he's always going it's like so much going on up there and and his eye you know yeah the way he sees his vision so i'm just really grateful and did he did you find that he did listen to you and learn about women on that shoot did how did he defer to you a lot in terms of the character and where to go i i wouldn't say defer as a as an operative verb for marty yeah but we work together right you know he my image of the set when you enter the set marty set it's like entering the ring at a prize

fight it's like it's all gonna happen in this ring right and we get in and then we start mixing it up you know yeah the other the other actor and marty and yeah the script and magic happens. That's great. Well, he, yeah, I imagine he's almost like sort of provides, he's like a battery.

Like, like he's the energy of, I love that. Oh, I love that. I'm going to say it from now on when I talk about Marty. It's true. Is it true?

So like that feels like that. It's just charged up. Yeah. But like, did you have any idea the exorcist would become what it became when you did that movie well i have to say that it was a best-selling book sure and there was a lot of talk about the exorcist oh it's going to be a movie. And, you know, it was it was a juicy part to get. Yeah. You know, actresses wanted that part. Not all of them, apparently, but some of us. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was aware that it was going to get a lot of attention. It was already getting a lot of attention. It was already getting a lot of attention. And my memory of the opening was me coming down for breakfast, going in the kitchen, turning on the TV set, and on the news they're filming in Montreal. People lined up for hours, sleeping, and it was snowing.

And they were like four hours in line waiting for the movie theater to open. And after watching it a while, I remember saying out loud to my kitchen, actually to the television set in my kitchen, people, people, it's a movie. What are you doing? You can go tomorrow. you can wait a week four hours in line for a movie i didn't get it so it was shocking how successful it was it was really shocking i can't imagine what that set was like i talked to friedkin for two and a half hours and man man, that guy's got like, you know, he sees symbols and everything and everything is connected. And he's like, you know, he's got a kind of maniacal kind of creative mind. I can't imagine what it would have been like to work with him at that time. of Friedkin and Marty and Darren Aronofsky,

Rafelson, Peter Bogdanovich, is their partners, you know? Like, we're in this together. We're creating this together. Oh, that's good. It's amazing. Like, you just, I mean, you love to work. Because you did, you know, big Broadway shows.

You did the big movies. You did a lot of TV. Even later in the, you did TV, it seems, in the middle of doing big movies as well. You just like to work. I do. I like, you know, my recipe for happiness is find a way to make a living at something that you'd be glad to do for free. Yeah. And I feel that way about acting it's what i do it's what i can do it's what i like doing you know and did like what is the city

burning down over there what's happening the um i just live on the street that the fire engines and the ambulances like they come and They come and go, yeah. Yeah. When you worked with Alan Alda, he seems like an amazing actor to work with. He's an amazing actor because he's an amazing man. Yeah. He's a really fine human being.

I love him deeply. Yeah. He's really a good guy, you know. Yeah. That movie, I think think is sort of a sweet movie it's a very interesting movie it must have been a great play I never saw it as a play the same time next year it was a great play Charles Grodin played it on Broadway so good that guy you were in it with Grodin? Mm-hmm.

Oh, my God. I was sad that he passed away, and I was sad I didn't get to talk to him, because there was really nobody like that guy. Nobody liked that guy. Yeah. He's so special. He did something I can't imagine any other actor ever considering doing when the movie was cast and they did not cast him. And believe me, he was brilliant in that part. Brilliant, funny and moving and deep and touching.

And he was wonderful. And the cast, Alan, who is equally as equally as magnificent, Alan, who is equally as magnificent, his reaction he set up going on a talk show I don't remember if it was Jack Parr or Johnny Carson I don't remember who was around then. He goes on the talk show and he tells them to tell him that Alan Wal Hall got cast. He goes on and he starts talking about the play.

And then he says, they're going to do a movie. And I expect, you know, I'll be cast in that. And they say, oh, no, they've cast it. What do you mean they've cast it? Alan Hall is going to play my part? He just did this whole number. They started quoting his reviews for the play. Yeah.

And one of the reviews said, hats in the air. And he always loved to say that. How are you tonight? Are we hats in the air? So he said, they said hats in the air explain on the show and he kept quoting his reviews he was so oh my god i gotta find that i gotta dig that up that's got to be on out there on youtube somewhere because it's so he he acted so hurt and like he didn't know. And how could they do it?

That's genius. So funny, man. He was genius. He was genius. Eccentric. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you seem like, you know, it's like even in relation to, uh, you know, uh, what you said publicly about working with Louie,

who it seems to me that you have a sensitivity from life experience to people that are peculiar or may do bad things, but you don't necessarily dismiss them as bad people. I thought that was a very nice way to handle that. Well, Louis, my God, you know, he's such a huge talent, huge talent. And, you know, he had this problem he didn't deal with in a proper way. That's terrible. But I'm not going to pretend that he's not a major, major talent and a wonderful man in other ways you know yeah well yeah i mean it takes it takes a life of experience to to bring that kind of empathy to these situations you know

that you know that people are very quick to uh you know to react differently because they don't have uh necessarily the life experience to kind of contextualize it like that. Well, part of my spiritual training was to not be judgmental. And I asked my spiritual teacher at the time, I said, I don't understand if, you know, somebody hurts you, you don't want to be hurt again, You know, you judge what they did. He said, I didn't say you shouldn't be discerning. Right. You know, there's a difference being judgmental and discerning. Right.

And certainly I discern that Louis had a problem that he didn't deal with enough to not have it anymore. But I discern that it was a problem yeah and a problem of a very talented and interesting and good man in other ways yeah get it yeah yeah and like and i i just really appreciate that you know you still like in acting i was i there was something interesting in terms of what i've watched of your recent work in seeing this new movie i there was a little bit of relief in the sense that like this woman is is sort of a a kind of a regular person with very you know uh you know understandable struggles as somebody who is getting older and doesn't want to give in to it whereas like you know i watched uh

the the last movie i watched you in, which was Pieces of a Woman. And then when I think back to the Aronofsky film, Requiem for a Dream, I mean, these are, you know, really hardcore, psychologically difficult, you know, troubled people in a way. So there was part of me was sort of like, not only do you have an amazing range, but I was sort of relieved in a way that you could have a little fun or more fun with this or but maybe you didn't have more fun with this maybe you really enjoy like in requiem for a dream that character is is hard to watch

it's so intense yeah i know it's exhilarating yeah to do like that, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like running a really long race and getting there and, you know, doing what your job is and pulling it off feels good. It just feels really good. Yeah. I was happy at the end of every day oh yeah because i'm at the challenge right yes yes and uh was aronofsky uh great to work with i've talked to him too he seems like uh it's hard for me to he seemed pretty intense but like the movies are so intense i can't imagine what it'd be like to be on a set with him. He's very intense. He's very smart. He's also very sensitive and kind and a loving person.

Yeah. He was great to work with. Again, I felt like we were a team. Yeah. He's understanding. He has depth, you know. It's great to work with people like that now i it was i was watching um you know the pieces of a woman film and that that was a that's a big part and i don't know how like i

don't know how that movie did or how many people saw it but it's a disturbing movie and and you're great in it and in you know it's a that's a a sort of cold emotional characters it's a heavy um but did that like i was watching it, did that, it shot in Montreal, right? Mm-hmm. Because they kept saying Boston. I'm like, I lived in Boston for years. That looks like Canada. Was it nice to be in Montreal again since the nightclub days?

Well, when I was dancing in the nightclub, I could could walk home at night actually at two in the morning but uh when i was there for pieces of a woman it was cold right yeah yeah we didn't go anywhere um i didn't walk outside a lot as a matter of fact they did the hotel I was in didn't have a gym. So for exercise, I walked the length of the floor I lived on all the way to the furthest stairway, went down one stair and then walked all the way the length the other. And I went all I lived on the eighth floor and I walked all the way down to the bottom and then I turned around and came back. Yeah. The workout. That was my workout. Yeah. And did you enjoy doing that film?

Well, I did because again, it was wonderful people. Vanessa Kirby is just such a brilliant actress. Crazy, right? Wow. That she's so good.

She's so good. And she's such a dear person. I love her. And the writer and director cotton cornell i loved working with yeah it was just a it was a good experience as difficult as it was it was a good experience in the new movie like did you have a relationship with ann Margaret? Did you know her from back in the day? We've worked together before. Yeah. Now, she says three films, but I can only think of two. But, you know, I've been working for over 60 years.

Yeah. There's a lot of films in there. I can't imagine what that first one was. I've got to ask her next time it's here. We were in twice in a lifetime together she stole gene hackman from me as i recall he was my husband and i think she got as i recall so we didn't really have scenes together she was with yeah my husband how great is gene hackman totally great He's just totally great.

You know? You could just watch him do anything. I miss seeing him and everything. Well, you know, he doesn't really like acting. I know. I guess he's up in Santa Fe writing a book or something. Painting. Oh, painting.

He's a painter. He never liked acting? Or he just didn't want to do it anymore? I didn't have an in-depth conversation with him, but I understand from what I hear that he doesn't really like it. He doesn't like doing it. But he's so good at it. He's so good at it. And, you know, here's an example of how he's good. In the movie,

he's my husband. He broke up with me to go with Ann-Margaret. And when he tells me that he's leaving me, he took off his ring, his wedding ring. And when I saw that, for some reason, it just broke my heart. Yeah. Yeah. I watched him do that, and it just killed me. So then that was for the master shot. So then when they did my close-up, and he's off camera, he did that every time, off camera yeah he took off the ring

now we didn't talk about it i didn't ask him for it i didn't say anything to him about it but he saw that it affected me and he did it when he didn't have to off camera and i was so moved by that it made me even more sorry to lose him as a husband oh it's it's so generous as an actor too to do that yeah that's great well you know like all these we're talking about all these like huge films and these they were all sort of um led by men directed by men do you have a sense you know that the that the industry, you know, for the better with more, with, you know, women more involved in top positions and whatnot? Yeah, you bet. Yeah.

Women in top positions at studios, but also making an effort, you know, to hire more women producers, more women writers, more women directors. Oh, that's definitely happening, just as it is being conscious of diversity in terms of skin color yeah you know and background i mean i think hollywood is really making a real effort to not have it just be a bunch of white guys yeah you know yeah thank god yeah i mean just look at that nomadland oh yeah you know that's such a gorgeous movie and it's so feminine yeah but i it's not just appealing to women right you know well i think that's like this is misconception about like you know entitlement, you know, on behalf of, of, of white guys is that, you know, they feel like they're being pushed out where, you know, it's,

it's really what's happening is no, the, the, the playing field is being leveled for as many different points of view for as many different voices as possible. So if they're threatened by that, maybe they just can't, maybe they've been getting away with something, which I think is really probably true in a lot of cases. Well, I think there's, I mean, I can understand it. It's a question of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years, that being a white man was being in the position of power.

Right. And, you know, I'm'm reading the iliad right now and and the for a man to conquer another man that means you get his wife yeah you know property women were property yeah almost like slaves and slaves were definitely you know one man beats kills another man he gets the slaves he gets the wife whatever what compelled you to read the Iliad um it's background for a piece that I'm working on that is a very difficult piece that I can't talk about yet because it's not real. Is it? It's something that I hope is going to happen next year.

On stage or on film stage. Stage. Looks exciting. Well, that's exciting. You know, you stay, you know,

you're just busy and I, you know, and I, I enjoyed seeing you in this new movie. I enjoy seeing you in every movie and I enjoy talking to you today and I appreciate it. Thank you. It was nice talking to you, Mark. Okay. Wasn't she amazing? So much better memory than I have. I don't know why I'm judging. I just

like my memory's going and as we get older, memory goes but man she was on it i should have asked her what she's doing to keep her memory together the movie is called queen bees it's now playing in theaters and on demand it stars ellen burston who we just hung out with james khan jane curtin and ann margaret and it's enjoyable my mother's gonna love it all right here's some guitar that was very frustrating to get to even though it's not different than anything I've always played here enjoy yourselves Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda and... Man, there's fucking cat angels everywhere.

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