WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1240 - Steven Soderbergh

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

There's a reason Steven Soderbergh's movies are always so unlike whatever movies he's made before. He tells Marc his goal is to take things that have worked in other contexts and turn them into something that doesn't feel like anything else. They talk about how this pertains to Steven's movies like No Sudden Move, Behind the Candelabra and the Ocean's Trilogy. They also discuss making movies on the iPhone, why his retirement didn't stick, and how Contagion holds up against the real thing. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? How you doing?

Are you holding up in the heat? Where you it's it's fucking over man we are watching the planet die it's dying uh and i guess some of you have uh better seats than others currently but we will all be uh the bleacher seats are going to be fine come the next few years. Doesn't matter where you're sitting. You're going to see the show. You know what I'm saying? But I hope you're holding up. I hope you're making do. I hope you're keeping cool. I hope you're not stroking out. Take it easy, man. Slow it down. Get into a child's mind and a lizard heart. Just, you know, kind of get in the shade and turn it down. Slow down that metabolism. Take it in. It's dark, but it's light. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's hot, but it's cold reality. Today on the show, I talked to Steven Soderbergh, the director, going all the way back to Sex, Eyes, and Videotape, 11 12 and 13 traffic contagion the list goes on uh i'm a huge fan of of uh of traffic but i'm i'm a bigger fan of behind the candelabra the uh the liberace movie he did i think for hbo oh my god fucking michael douglas just gives into it man who are you talking to mumbles i love that movie i love it i love it uh it's interesting about him because in comparison to Tarantino, who draws from every type of movie ever and just kind of mashes it up, mashes it together in his sort of montage collage of a thousand styles and shots and homages. And Soderbergh actually is quite different.

badges and Soderbergh actually is quite different he he actually locks into a style or tone for an entire film and he holds it but he doesn't stay the same I mean they're all he's always challenging himself I think with technology and also with just tone and style and I watched the new film No Sudden Move which is a straight-up noir uh with don cheadle and benicio del toro and it's a it's a multi-layered fairly complex noir and uh and it's tonally tight very specific and different than his other movies he's just a he definitely takes chances and he is a masterful director and i'm glad we got to talk we did do it over Zoom because that was the way it was set up initially. So that's going to happen. It was exciting to talk to him. I was a little intimidated. I was more intimidated by Soderbergh than I was Tarantino because Soderbergh seems like a kind of a serious guy, straight shooter, just a little heady dude, but it worked out fine.

little you know heady dude but it worked out fine i want to give a little love send a little uh juice to uh this thing that's going on in um it's a tribute now i don't know how many of you know barry crimmins he's a great comic we had him on the show a couple of times and he used to work with me and brendan over at air america it was actually his interview on this show that inspired bobcat goldthwait to do the documentary about barry mr lucky but he was also the uh the founder of the influential boston area comedy club the ding ho which you might have heard me talk about with uh with lots of comics especially the boston guys well jimmy tingle is one of those guys guys, and Jimmy helped organize a 40th anniversary celebration of the Ding Ho that you can watch this weekend as part of a fundraiser. Jimmy is joined by Stephen Wright, Paula Poundstone, Bobcat Goldthwait,

Dennis Leary, Lenny Clark, Don Gavin, Jack Gallagher, Tony V, Kenny Rogerson, and just a ton more comics, so many more comics comics to laugh and celebrate both Barry and the Ding Ho. You can watch it by making a donation to support Barry's wife, Helen. When Barry died in 2018, his wife Helen was in the middle of her fight with stage four non-Hodgkin lymphoma. The fundraiser helps with her medical and living expenses. The tribute is airing july 1st 2nd

and 3rd that's tonight tomorrow and saturday go to jimmy tingle.com for tickets the ding ho the ding ho i remember going there when i was in college when i first started doing comedy back in the mid 80s my first soul it was it was probably the last the last summer the ding ho was open but i was able to get on that stage uh it was back when tingle a lot of harmonica and tingles act uh i remember ron lynch was in a in a team called bob and ron. Lenny Clark used to host the open mic where he would do 45 minutes between acts. Mark Clark was a door guy. And it was connected to the Chinese restaurant, which I never ate at. The only thing I remember about performing at the Ding Ho was one time I was about to go on and I spilled a drink on my pants.

It looked like I pissed myself and I had a drink on my pants. It looked like I pissed myself and I had to go on like that. I had to work with it. I had to work with it. I don't remember having a good set. I can remember what the inside of the club looked like. I can remember what it felt like to be on stage there, but I don't remember anything about performing there, but I remember it. I remember being there and I remember sitting at the bar with Ron Lynch and his partner, Bob, after I came out of the bathroom or after I had just spilled a drink on myself. And I went to the bathroom to try to dry it and to no avail. And I was just starting out and it was another traumatic experience

i've really been thinking about this lately a lot just the ptsd necessary to sort of continue uh pursuing comedy like i was thinking back at some of the gigs that we were doing like because people when the store reopened the comedy store people were like ah there's nobody here i'm like so what don't you remember doing this i mean and you're when people say at the beginning now it's packed but the first couple weeks it was small audiences they were distanced they couldn't only let certain amount of people in and people were complaining i'm like are you fucking out of your mind just get your work done for fuck's sake i I mean, do people forget? I've done shows for two people, four people, eight people, nine people, 12 people, 15 people spread out. I've driven 200 miles to perform for seven

people. I've done in shows and bars and discos and bowling alleys and fucking veterans halls. I've done shows. I mean, I don't even know how I did it. I was an angry, neurotic, furious Jewish kid in my early 20s, just roaming all over the New England countryside to walk into situations I had fucking no idea what I was getting into, to go up cold and do a half hour before 45 minutes.

I don't know how I did it. Just thinking about it now makes me embarrassed and uncomfortable and fucking sad as fuck for that guy. And, you know, I wasn't, I just, I don't know who that kid was. But I do know that I locked in somehow. I kept going. I had shattered my sense of rejection to the point where somehow or another i managed it but there i still feel it the sensitivity the

terror not when i do a theater and not even when i go on to store whatever but like somebody asked me i think lance over permanent records he's like do you, do you want to do a show at the record store? And man, the thought of walking into a record store and doing just a gig on a small stage or whatever, just a gig in a room that's not a stand-up room or a theater, not a legit place. I'm like, I can't handle it, man. I don't want the stress of

that i like the parameters defined you know i don't want you know i don't i just i can't do it after years of performing in every shithole that you can imagine of all kinds you know even if they're bars they don't doesn't mean're, they're built for performances, hotel ballrooms. I'm just like, I, I'm not, it was like the same thing with performing at these outdoor shows or driving shows during the pandemic. Can't,

I don't want the stress of that. Give me a comedy club. Give me a small theater, a big theater. I don't care. But the anxiety of just going up either cold or even with an opener in a, in a situation that is makeshift. I'm just fucking, I can't.

It's like a trigger, man. And I don't know if I would frame it as PTSD because I intentionally put myself into all those situations, but for years, for years, going back to the comedy store was like visiting the abuser. years going back to the comedy store was like visiting the abuser and i don't i when i really think about some of those gigs it's just horrendous to me i did it i learned my fucking craft i know how to get in shape now but i you know just terror and just even the thought of it now like i'm going on tonight you know dynasty typewriter with a bunch of half you know half ideas a few jokes a few things and i'm gonna riff it out

and that's how i do it and like my brain is on fire i'm on edge i'm furious at everything i'm furious at myself and this happens innately i don't know why this is the way that my brain needs to generate, why this is the method. But like, I just like, I know like today heading into this thing, my brain will just fucking rip open and I'll, and I'll start putting things together and I'll outline and stuff and I'll just go kick it around up there in front of people. It's terrifying. kick it around up there in front of people it's terrifying it's there's nothing not horrendously stressful about it but it's always the way i've done it and this is how i'm going to do it i'm not happy about it i don't know what's going to happen i never give myself the benefit of the

doubt given that i've done this for half my fucking life at this point. I'm just on, I am at the edge, man. And I know on some level it's like, hey man, it's not sober behavior. You know, maybe you need a meeting. You're dry. You're this or that. This is the way it goes. And I never remember that this is the way it goes. I want to quit.

I don't want to do it this way anymore. I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to. And I'm just, I get myself into this fucking meltdown mode. I guess it's my innate way of building up the courage to fucking do this show because it's all life or death for me i'm not going up there with a list and like well that joke didn't work i'm going i got to put it on the line i guess that's what i live for what makes it all worthwhile is for me to get up there not knowing what's going to happen to put myself in this situation where I have to be funny and not exactly sure where it's going to come from and wait for it to come and hope it does come.

Then all of a sudden it's delivered to you. You don't know where from. You're just like you're sort of like you're kind of fishing the air. I'm going to go fishing in the ether to see if I can catch some tags, some jokes, some brilliance, just a moment. Will it come? Will it come? And when it comes out of nowhere, it's sort of like, there it is. It's been delivered. That moment.

It's fucking horrible to have to depend on that. Wouldn't it be easier just to write a fucking joke, Marin? Wouldn't that be it? Who are you calling Marin? I'm you, dude. You. All right. Relax, man.

Steven Soderbergh's new film is called No Sudden Move. It's a movie. And you'll hear, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to miscall it a film. You'll understand what I'm saying after you listen to me and Steve. His new movie, No Sudden Move, is now streaming on HBO Max. And this is me talking to Mr. Soderbergh. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything.

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A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I tell you, man, this thing has gotten me. Like, all those people in that one room, it is causing me more stress than having to be in person with that many people. Soon, soon, Steven, there will be... Are you going to make a movie all on Zoom? Is that something you can do? Oh, God. Would anybody want to see that?

I don't know. We seem to be used to it. I mean, it seems... I know, but it's gotten me anxious. Right. I don't know. I get anxious on them because it feels very performative yes and and when i feel like i'm expected to like deliver i i get like really i

get really anxious it's like a new thing i mean do you as a performer yeah did you ever were you ever nervous sure i i was uh you know five minutes ago i was filled with dread and anxiety and it wasn't until i saw your face and i was like oh there's there's there he is it'll be fine yeah i i get dread all the time not not so much doing stand-up anymore i don't know when that went away but but it was about 30 years into my career. I spent a long time pretending not to be afraid. And then eventually one day you're like, oh, I know how to do this. Right. So you don't generally have anxiety when you have to approach a film?

No, no. That kind of stuff doesn't make me nervous at all. Professional stuff to me is not worth getting really emotional about. Personal stuff, I get very anxious about. And that's what I mean. Something is leaked over. You know what I mean? Something that what used to be strictly professional, now it feels like it's leaking into something personal. It's making me really anxious. Well, are you saying that in this age of social media platforms and easy access to almost anybody that your boundaries are being a little a little strained? Yeah, it's terrible.

Just it's really it's it's the it's one of the worst experiments ever. You mean the general experiment of capitalism's exploration of social media and mining our brains entirely? Well, just as another chapter in the, you know, how did we get here book. Yeah. book yeah um you know it's just and also the the the the continual experience of counter intuition right right right of watching people you you'd think oh i can i absolutely know what's going to happen here and that is absolutely not what happens that like it's not how people react right right or respond like that's it's disorienting like what's an example of that um well i think it's when you try to let's say either incentivize

or disincentivize people to do one thing or another right Right. And so how many times does it happen that the plan is announced? If you do X, we will give you Y. Right. It goes horribly wrong. Either either too many people show up and the thing just crashes. Yeah. or nobody shows up and it's a complete waste of time right but in both instances we feel and it's hypocritical but we feel our first reaction is how did you not see that coming right right right right so there's just it's just so crazy it's a 50 50 proposition though you can see both things coming and you're hoping that it's going to be more than one person the real sad thing is is when you get there and there's no one there but two people you kind of feel like well i mean there's two so yeah yeah yeah we got to put on a show i guess well like you said it's 50 50 and that's that that implies a certain reality of or acknowledgement of uncertainty that is unsettling.

Sure. And I guess it's real. It's real and it's true, but it's unsettling. Right. Well, I mean, you don't have there's very few things we have control over. I imagine a movie is one of them. That's probably about 95 percent. Right. Well, it's certainly in terms of, you know, when you're working on the thing, the amount of control that you're able to exert on that thing isn't normal. Most people don't go to work and have that kind of power. Of course. But at the same time, in my experience. You the any if you you're you're mistaken if you feel you really control it. All right. There are too many human beings involved.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the worst. Just are just too many people. You know, I see I saw your uh i don't know how close you are with tom papa but i see him a lot doing comedy i saw him the other night tom's a good friend he's funny yeah yeah he's like i said to who i was just sitting in the back of the room i was going on after him i said you know watching him is like watching something that has always existed in comedy he's got some sort of timing that seems sort of like ever present you know throughout the entire undertaking since uh stand-up starting doing stand-up you know yeah it's it's a it's you're right it's a sound in

there there's there's it's a verbal equivalent of a kind of music yes right yeah there's a yeah a rhythm rhythm yeah yeah for sure goes all the way back goes all the way back to the Borscht Belt. So you just you basically just called him the oldest comic. Yeah. Yeah. Him and Jeff Ross. I'll do it right to their face. They're they're part of the continuity for sure. So I watch I watch a new movie and I was thinking about because I took it. It's a it's like a multi-tiered noir i guess is really what it is and and it really it sort of seeks to address almost all the uh the the buttons of noir in a way doesn't it absolutely i hope so yeah and then i started thinking about uh you know the movie that

you based on the underneath i start i just saw richard or robert siad mock movie recently a couple of them. And there's something profound and simple about the way that guy made movies. Was he some sort of influence on you when approaching this type of material? Oh, absolutely. I mean, like you said, there's a clarity to it that I think is deceptively simple. In Robert's movies? Yeah.

But also in the best examples of this genre, like when it's done really well, they achieve a sort of clarity that requires, in my experience, a lot of, you know, very specific effort. And, and so I think sometimes that gets lost. Interesting. Yeah. Right. But there's just a, for this, I wanted to, I wanted to sort of be in the room with a certain kind of film from that period but i i didn't want it to be a purely representational recreation of that era well i definitely felt that i mean it definitely has a very um uh controlled and consistent look to it in terms of the you know the the tone of the color right and and also in in in the way it seems like you structured almost all the shots i couldn't tell whether it was my screener or was

it intentional no those are those are very wide lenses okay so that so that was uh that was there for a reason that was totally on purpose and what what effect do you get from that? What does it do psychologically? What do I need to know? Oh, well, I would never venture a two literal way, um, bring you out of a space in which, uh, you have a, a 90 degree grid essentially, right. A world in which things are that, uh, squared off. Right. Like, I mean, that, I know that sounds incredibly pretentious, but, um, that really felt wrong to me to have images that that were that sort of square right um okay so i purposefully went and found this set of lenses that um embraces the inherent anomalies of any anamorphic lens okay like they they are just like we're going with it right yeah yeah

yeah it's got it's bendy yeah like we're just we're gonna do it and i thought this is perfect for us that's sort of interesting because i'm sitting there going like oh this must be the screener i guess uh but it was completely intentional now i have the time of day was was this it was during the day but now i got to go back and watch it and it's like no this is on purpose this is like no but uh uh are you just discontent you with with anything that is uh sort of uh the old reliable way of moving forward no not at all it's it's it's more um is there a way to blend different things that have worked before into something that doesn't feel exactly like either of them yeah and the story how you because you just i mean the execution of the story and how it continues to unfold and how you have you

know you've got you've got a mob movie you've revenge movie, you know, you've got a guy seeking some sort of personal justice. You've got several different factions of the mob. Then you've got the, you know, one of the biggest American industrial, uh, complexes, you know, involved in this document. Uh, when you approach that material, do you realize like, you know, I guess the real challenge outside of, of finding these, these new lenses is, you know, how do you flatten like you know i i guess the real challenge outside of finding these these new lenses is you know how do you flatten this story enough for it to all sink in you know no exactly yeah well i think that's the that's the the running conversation and it doesn't really conclude until you've locked and delivered the movie. What information should be released at what point and by whom?

Right, right. Like that's literally, it's really, really comes down to that because how you end up doing that directly affects the audience's ability to engage and sort of give you a little bit of runway. Like you want them chasing you a little bit, but they need to feel intention. Right.

And they need to feel like their interest will be rewarded. Yeah. And so if you confuse them or somehow allow them to disconnect, you know, it just gets harder to, to pick them back up. So this was a movie when we're, where we are constantly analyzing what character knows what,

when, and should this scene come here or should like, we really wanted the math to be clean. Yeah. Well, I mean, it definitely was because even if like, you're like,

not unlike Chinatown or some of the more complicated noir movies, you know, even even if you think you miss something by the time all the the all the stories pay off, you're like, oh, oh, no. You know, so there's that triple like, what the fuck? Oh, really? And then at the end, you're sort of like, all right, that was good. At the end, you're sort of like, all right, that was good. Well, good, because look, we were we were in one in one regard. We weren't following the map of the typical noir because the movie does not end with a gun battle. Right. Right. And it doesn't, you know, end with the with with the woman dying or getting away with something, right? No. No, not in the version I did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's sort of interesting in this movie, though, you know, given like I talked to Sharon Stone about Mosaic, you know, and I was able to watch that. Unfortunately, I just watched the movie version. I didn't, you know, setting up for it. But it seems like in this outinging the only thing you really did that was you know um kind of pushing the envelope was using that lens so it bent at the sides which also i think creates it now that i think back on it and you know what you're saying about the 90

degree thing but it also is a reminder of of that that you're watching a movie in some degrees which is yes uh which is true uh kind of the old French new wave trick, you know, Hey, surprise. It's an illusion, but yeah. Well, I did want to, I did, I did, I did think of it in my mind as a movie, as opposed to a film. I think that those are slightly different things. And so for me, the, the, the more movie, the more movie-ish it was, the better. Oh, interesting. So you want to tell me what the difference is so I make sure I know? One of them wins awards.

Can you tell me which one? Oh, I think it's fairly obvious that if you if you had somebody if you were doing like uh you know the equivalent of a flashcard test yeah where you you you held up the poster for a piece of cinema yeah and asked just asked a person like do you consider that a film or a movie and just took that data yeah that the ones that they identified as films would would in the aggregate have more awards huh i think and you didn't make one of those you made a movie this is a movie okay this is a movie this is a movie so you basically are we putting it out in the world that you're not you don't want to win awards? You're not expecting awards?

No, it's in terms of its intention. Okay. So what is that? To entertain? To just entertain. Yes. sort of an ability to sort of investigate the movie, the movie's plot through other means and go deeper than you would normally.

That is also, I assume, a more complicated entertainment, yes? Yeah, that was, we didn't even, we didn't know what to call it. Like that was a challenge. So what do you think was then, from your point of view, the last movie you made or the last film last film che oh really yep and and so is that does that come down to a business decision for you no it just it just is if you you look at the material and you take the gig. Yeah, if it's hell yeah.

There are two categories, hell yeah and no. Okay. So hell yeah can be anything that you're interested in. Absolutely. Because I have to be honest. Behind the candelabra, I've watched like four times. Oh, my God. And I, um,

you know, you know, primarily for the line where Michael Douglas goes, who are you talking to? Mumbles. That, I mean, you must've been on the set of that,

of that watching Michael Douglas do that. You must've just been entertained every fucking day. They really just just you know ran toward it they just really it was really fun to watch michael and matt just just do it like just do it yeah and and it was a really it was a really for, a really special kind of experience because, in theory, that was going to be my last thing. But yeah, I know that I've heard that you point, because I do that too. Like over the pandemic, I realized like not only do I not miss stand up, but maybe I'm all better. Like it becomes like sort of like, why was I doing this to begin with how come i feel relief maybe i'm done so what what drove you to to decide that you may

might be done oh i think just the business was making me a bit nutty i didn't understand the the process by which large-scale important decisions about you know where everything should go yeah we're being made because they seemed so um so much in opposition to my experience of how to solve creative problems like how to how to how to answer a question um i i it seemed um i was absolutely aware that there was and there is a certain amount of information that I don't have access to about why they make the decisions they make. Right. You know, even though I'm working for them, I don't know what assumptions they make about growth, eyeball migration, subscription costs.

Like, I don't know. Isn't a lot of times the decisions they make based on their own fear of failure? Well, if that's true, that's not a knock because that's most of us. Yeah. that's most of that's most of us. Yeah. That's so I just wish that at that point in 2013, my unwillingness to acknowledge that, you know, was just making me really frustrated. And and I think afterward, I realized I kind of I let it bleed. I thought it was about my job and it wasn't about my job. Yeah.

Because once I started doing my job again, I was really happy. Yeah. And so I realized that I had allowed, you know, my my sort of b to really, um, take me off course and slow me down. Um, that I shouldn't, I shouldn't be like giving that so much real estate, like just go to work. Right. To, to judge yourself against this sort of like nebulous, uh, uh, disappointment for, uh, uh, with the intentions of the industry. Yeah. You know, like know like yeah it was like a weird yeah like i was in some free-floating like funeral or something i don't know anyway it's stupidly i had let it kind of right you know bleed into my day job yeah and um once i once i got past that uh everything got

better um but you did stop for a while, right? It was very, very brief. It was embarrassingly brief. And what was the plan? You're like, I'm going to do this now. I was going to take painting lessons. Did you? Yes.

And are you still painting? No. No, I never did. You never did. I never did. You never. No, I mean, I got, I think, two lessons in, and then I got the script for The Knick.

Oh, and that reengaged you. People love that series. I love doing it. Yeah, and that's like steady work. That's not like I'm going to make a movie. It's like we got a whole thing to do here that's gonna go over you know many episodes yeah yeah yeah oh it's so much fun it was so much fun now when you talk about it it's like when you talk about the job you know because like you're you're a guy who like there are certain movies that you've made

that you know made an indelible impression on me i mean all the way from the beginning because i went to college with steve brill so when you cast him oh shit really yeah we used to do comedy together oh my god yeah but i remember that movie as being like some sort just in it let's it was an unexpected thing right so then that sets you going and then over the course of the scene like where did you you know did you did you study film yeah but not formally not formally so you made that i didn't go to school for it so So this is like so you're kind of an autodidact in this medium. By by by law, I am described as self-taught. Yeah. Really? By law?

If in a in a legal case, I think you would that would they would have to say that. So the evolution of this skill set. They would have to say that. So the evolution of this skill set, well, that's interesting to me because anytime you change the approach that you take, because this movie is really, the movie you just made is unlike any other movie you made to some degree. I hope so. Right. Because you're constantly employing everything that you've learned, everything that you you're a fan of and everything that you want to try in each movie but you but you do have certain consistencies around like you know tone i guess what i'm trying to get at is you see you keep

talking about the job so do you not see yourself as an artist do you see that the director's uh is primarily an occupation that you apply to uh in any way that the material, do you see that the director is primarily an occupation that you apply to in any way that the material demands? Do you not think that a point of view or some sort of auteur authorship is necessary? Well, I'm an absolute believer in the idea of a decider. Right. Like there needs to be a decider. Right. Yeah. Like there needs to be a decider. Right.

And I think the best results have been when that decider is very, very specific and rigorous about all of the choices that have to be made to get something done. You know, it's, it's, I tell people, it's like, if you don't like answering questions, do not take this job. Yeah. Answering questions. That's all it is. But you, but you're answering them, you know, in the face of the, the task, it's not, people are asking you questions, are they? Yeah. Oh yeah. Like actors, like producers, like lighting people.

Like where? Yeah. Which lens? What do we? Yeah. So, okay. Everything. Everything all the time.

That's the job. And the more unified the answers are, I think, the better the piece. But do you ever think that because of your natural compulsion to do new things and change things up all the time has in some way denied you a specific voice? Like, do you feel that people can see a Soderbergh movie and go like, this is a Soderbergh movie? can see a Soderbergh movie and go like this is Soderbergh movie or didn't oh I I don't I don't think I don't that to me that ends up if that becomes true that becomes a a potentially dangerous thing because then you're then I don't I think being a brand in any sense of that word in terms of is like a terrible idea. Because you'll be expected to deliver on that brand. Yeah. Cause then, yeah, exactly. Then it's, and, and, and, you know, what, what keeps me, What keeps me activated is the possibility of something in front of me that I'm going to learn something new and get challenged in some way that's going to be new or it has demands that I've never had to meet before.

By definition, I want it to keep changing. Well, there was a point early on, I think, right, where, you know, you were pushing the envelope for yourself. And, you know, and I think some movies were not received as, you know, in any real way. But I mean, but do you see those in retrospect as necessary learning experiences oh absolutely in every particular it's not fun to lose people money i don't enjoy i don't enjoy losing money for people um but you know the point is, you have to, if at any stage, I mean, unless you're talking about catastrophic failure after catastrophic failure, you can't second guess yourself. Yeah. You can only make something that you want to see that you would stand in line to go see. Yeah.

And if you're getting into some sort of predictive state, I just think now you don't know where North is. And so luckily, occasionally like these concentric circles, you know, I'll make something that people seem to want to get eyeballs on at that particular moment. Then there's, there could be a fallow period.

Then it goes like, I've done a couple in a row that have done like goes like i've done a couple in a row that have done like that i've done a couple in a row that have tanked yeah like it's just all all with the same methodology right so it's this is this i don't know what else to to listen to other than my own desire to see something right so you so in other words you not, you're not thinking like this isn't going to sell. You're thinking like, I want to follow this through because I love this thing and I'm going to make it.

Yeah. But I think you need to have an understanding of the real world economics of an idea that requires a certain amount of resources to do well. Right. And the potential audience for it. Like I do, I do think you,

you, you don't be stupid about that too often. Well, I mean, you've had experience with, I mean, I mean, I don't guess you like doing these junkets on some level.

Only when they, well, I have certain, you know what I did? I, I, I just, I,

I said, here's how I would like to structure these i'd like them to be long i'd like the conversations to be long yeah then i can do them right um and so um i've been able that'll give them it's the only way to stay sane right and it's also the only way to have follow-through but also the downside of that but even because you're a sophisticated thinker and an intellectual person but the only downside of the longer form interview is it gives them more things to take out of context but you know that's the dice you're going to roll right yeah but you know yeah when the when the when speculating about the film industry yeah becomes a third rail then you know yeah then we'll

know the pendulum has gone very far in a certain direction because there's a lot more important stuff. It is very hard, especially through that. How do you think your film how do you think Contagion held up to the real thing? Do you would you? Well, I mean, I think the science is is is solid. is solid. The things we missed were. Again, big, giant examples of irrational behavior. Yeah. You know, we just we missed a lot of that.

Well, that was a leadership problem. Yeah, that you that you would be in a situation in which the administration would be in some sort of disarray and confusion. These were things that we, in trying to keep it fairly intimate, that we missed. And we thought the position and the amount of real estate that the Jude Law character occupied in Contagion wouldn't be any larger than that. We never imagined that it would become like half. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We looked at it as like 12%. And when it turned into 50%, we were like, wow, I didn't see that coming. But, you know, the process for the people that are in the middle of it, you know, we tried to to really show it's it's it's a very complex thing. And there are very smart people working on it.

Yeah. How did you how did you handle it? What did you do over the year you worked? were in new york yeah um the whole time until um from the beginning until uh i left to go to detroit to shoot no sudden move in september so we were you know kind of there for that period which which a lot of pain and dislocation. Yeah. But I ended up after we finished no sudden move in Los Angeles. I went from Detroit to Los Angeles just in time for their wave. Yeah. So it's really, it's really been wild to see it,

to see it evolve like this and to really take on the fact that when we were making Contagion and all the people we were consulting with were saying, you know, this is going to happen. Right. Like you just can't quite wrap your mind around it. And then to see it. And in many ways, I mean, the the the number of the mortality quotient in contagion was was much higher. consultants and have them go, oh, this actual real world thing is a lot worse than the one we came up with for a contagion. Really? Yeah. They're like this thing, they call it nose to toes. They're like, this is bad in terms of just the complexity and full body you know activation that it caused yeah that that they were like this thing is gnarly covid covid yeah yeah yeah they're like our thing was a lot simpler it just killed you quicker yeah in most cases so this this is um it's a it's a it's a real it's a real testament

again to these scientists there's some technology that exists now that didn't exist then that's why we got to a vaccine so fast it's pretty amazing and it's like it's interesting like you said to me

you know that there are bigger problems than you know studio issues and you know, that there are bigger problems than, you know, studio issues and, you know, movie business issues. But, you know, you seek to, you know, we all did just lockdown and everybody watched, you know, more movies and more entertainment than they ever would in their life. They caught up on movies. They saw things they didn't want. They saw things they didn't see before. They used it to ground themselves and keep saying

but i keep asking myself is that even in this movie that you just made the movie no sudden move there there there is an environmental message there is a a message in there i guess it's not unlike some of of the more uh some of the noirs that deal with with uh you know with nefarious industry and and politics yeah but but is it it is a prescient and and and current realization of of you know industry fucking people and we're living in the garbage so i guess as a filmmaker do you is there a responsibility as an artist or do we do you just go on making movies because i don't know what art is going to really change anybody you know people are always talking about like well art you know you got to do your art because that's where change comes from like what a painting like what's going to you know what do you mean it's going to change anything like i got the message

from this movie i just watched which you are not calling a film and you know and a lot of times all you can do is go like wow you know we it was fucked up back then, you know, but contagion that was that, you know, that that saw into the future. What is the responsibility? Well, personally, I feel it's to be as accurate as you can. Generally speaking. Yeah. Like, like, you know, and again, we get into a very subjective space of, well, how can when you talk about lying, you talk about being accurate or what's true. Yeah. You know what? Then what is a lie? What's the what's the movie equivalent of of a lie? it's a long list and and there's some very there's some very good uh and certainly some some some very successful movies on it um and and then the question becomes well but if the

audience understands that then is it really a lot like if they know yeah i know what you're doing just do it right you know yeah yeah yeah then who am I to say that they can't have that, you know? Yeah. But well, you're the guy who makes it. Yeah. But,

but I'm saying it's really personal. Yeah. Like my, my definition of a movie lie is, is going to be different from somebody else. Like what? What's a movie lie? Well,

the people can change in two hours. Yeah. Right. hours. Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. I won't go as dark as that people can change. Right. But it is this weird sort of relationship that we have with stories in general, but movies, I think, especially because they're so powerful,

because it's such a powerful medium when you experience it in a theater with a lot of people, there's nothing really exactly like it. And you still enjoy that. You're still making movies with that in mind. Every filmmaker would like their movie seen on a giant screen. It simply becomes a matter of economics. Like if, if I don't, if I'm not making the kinds of movies that, that draw people to

movie screens, then there's, that's not a business, you know? Right. Well, just, we, I guess if we just keep making the tvs bigger and and people have a dedicated room in their house and you know they're expecting it's getting close it is man by the way speaking of i don't know why no i'm not going to go there why i'm going to say that for the end that sounded great but so you like you have experience okay so you made a couple movies on iphones was that to prove a point or because well i mean point? That's a confrontive way to say it. You didn't experiment and you found it successful and you were impressed by the results and it is an option for you. But

this movie you just made, you went and found these lenses that were far from an iPhone. And so do those exist on the same plane to you? Oh, sure. Absolutely. In all instances, the the the, you know, the the motivation is the same, which is to, you know, see if there's some, you know, melange of the real world genre, my own preoccupations, format, form of distribution, you know, to, so in the case of the, the unsane and high flying bird, fascinated by this technology and, and wanted to see if there were things that I could do with this technology that I couldn't do with any other technology just to see like what's, what's possible, what's not possible,

what's different. And there were, and there were, because they were in different formats, it took me two movies to really get a feel for that. And my walkaway was, I think both of these are closer to what I wanted than if I'd used, quote unquote, normal cameras. in places that were specific to these devices yeah and move the camera in a way that it would be very dangerous to move anything larger right and that that was contributive to like the visual scheme of the film sure and you didn't have to put i felt it was the best version and you didn't

have to put anyone in danger to get the shots no yeah well that well i i mean well that makes sense i guess you also learned that in a pinch if uh there's economic collapse and the infrastructure doesn't hold if your phone is still working you can make a movie i i'm the cockroach of this industry so in your education like saying that you know is self-taught i mean who were the most informative you know uh people in your life as each movie as you got opportunities after that first movie was it primarily dps who were you like you know where did you pick up the language of film from well i i you know i'd seen a lot of films um i did when i said saying I'm self-taught or that I didn't go to school for film is a little disingenuous only because the reality was I was going to a laboratory high school on the LSU campus. And every day after school, I was hanging out with the actual college film students.

OK, yeah. So for four years, I was in that class every day after school okay okay so you you were soaking it in the real stuff yeah and i'm so technique and process and everything else yeah and so then the the once i graduated high school um the plans seem very straightforward right right spec screenplays and make short films. I mean, that's how you get yourself noticed. You can't get anywhere if you don't make stuff. And whose ideas in terms of the films that drove you or that were your sort of like Rosetta Stones, what were they? Well, at that point, it would have been, I mean, Cassavetes, you know,

had existed for a long time. So he was kind of a, an anchor. Yeah. But then I remember Claudia Wiles girlfriends was a big deal. And then, you know, then you have Jarmusch, you have David Lynch, Spike Lee, like it's, it's, you can feel, you can feel the hunger in the middle of the decade where the studios just took back complete control, a desire to see something that felt handmade. Right, right, right. So like so on in terms of people you could judge yourself against and in terms of what you thought you wanted to do, those were the guys. thought you wanted to do those were the guys well those were yeah those were those those seemed what's the right word they weren't arm's length but they were not it wasn't impossible right it was possible and it's really it's interesting out of all those people you've gone on to make

you know more i think independent films and more studio films than any of them really well i mean well spike you know spike's been very active and made movies for everybody yeah um but and jim jarvis owns all of his own negatives so you know yeah that's that's a franchise, right? Potentially. Right. But like, you know, in what we're talking about in terms of the possibility of becoming that, those movies were definitely a brand.

Your point of view or Soderbergh's signature might not have been a brand. But after you did two of those, were you like one more? That's it. Maybe. You know what I mean? I was those from those movies for me provide an opportunity to play. That's that's unique. Yeah.

Like there's there's no there's nothing else that comes my way that really allows for that exact form of of being a child um for me because even something like logan lucky is is much more controlled yeah visually than one of the oceans movies right um so they're they're in my mind they're, in my mind, they're just these sort of little rainbows. Well, you know what's amazing is those type of movies with that expansive cast of that kind of talent, they don't really exist like they used to. I mean, it was a fairly common thing to do for big studios to do those massive comedies or even war movies with, you know, every studio player they had and, and they were spectacles. So like, you know, just that thing that you kind of re invented that, or, or, or at least engaged that, that, that, uh, that type of movie again for the first time in decades, probably really. Well, it was, you know, I think a testament to to.

The late great Jerry Weintraub and to the cast that we were able to do three of those in six years and keep everybody. Well, they must have loved it. They must love working with you. You know, I'm just saying that that speaks to their that speaks to their connection. that speaks to their, that speaks to their connection. And, and, you know, that's, that's, that's a, that's a rare thing, you know? Yes. Yes. And in like, and it was sort of like to me, but I romanticize relationships and, and movie stars. And even though I've talked to so many different people, I still have a certain amount of fandom and awe and assumptions around, you know,

I still have a certain amount of fandom and awe and assumptions around, you know, people like, you know, working even with Elliot Gould, you know, and, and Carl Reiner that, you know, these different decades of show business represented along with this new generation of, of movie stars. I mean, for you, like stepping into that, even though you've got to helm the thing and provide a space, is there a part of you that's like, Holy shit. Well, I was scared i mean i was i was no i was scared for a lot of reasons the the the the opportunity that it

provided if if if it were you know well executed you know were significant like it's it's it just means more freedom uh the ability to take even bigger chances on things like it just you know conversely if if if it crashes uh then it closes off you know certain opportunities right but you know, these are not problems in any real sense. They're they're they're strictly I'm in trying to figure out what the next two or three years of work would look like, you know, how people respond to something is going to have a big effect on that. yeah so so if i have something that i feel is ambitious in a certain sort of way it's going to take you know a real leap of faith on the part of the people financing it you probably don't want to go in with that

after the catastrophe right and none of them were those were huge movies And then be mad about it. Yeah. You know, like, you know, you know, I think you need to be smart about timing. You know, the timings, timing is really important. And I've been the beneficiary of it many on many occasions. But it's it's, you know, that's just showing up and with the right thing at the right time, which just you can't force them. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's just luck, cosmic timing. But I would argue, you know, being in the right place at the right time. time if your interactions with somebody are are really you know toxic or if you if you're if you're just not very good at at any sort of connection with people or or you know working with them in a way that they don't feel diminished or threatened or something like if you

if you can't figure that out you won't be asked to that place which will mean being in the right place at the right time yeah like and that seems to be like it seems that you know what you're speaking to there were those people that were like that and and because of that and because of the intimidation factor and and the fear factor were able to dominate uh the industry and and now those you know that paradigm is shifting uh and there's a relief there is that what you're addressing well i hope so i hope it's i hope it's gonna shift it should shift um it's it's going to shift. It should shift. Do you feel like you've been bullied at different times by production entities, by individuals? No. That's good.

No. But you know the guys. No, it's more that I was just never in a in a situation um in which i was dealing with somebody who viewed me in that sort of predatory way or wanted to torture me yeah yeah yeah or right you know what i mean that got pleasure out of my displeasure. I just went. And that's not saying I never was in a room with somebody who didn't turn out to do that. Right. But I never had anybody do that to my face in a room. Right.

Right. You use some of these guys, these actors over and over again. You have relationships with them, like Benicio, Matt Damon. I think Cheadle a couple of times too. Yeah. Six, six. Wow. Um, what, what do you expect? What, how, how has that relationship evolved and how do you work with actors? Generally speaking, do you, do they just, you expect them to know what to do,

just show up and do their job and trust their interpretation of it? Or are you more, is it more collaborative? Well, yeah. I mean, I'm hoping they really bring a lot to the table. Like I'm really trying to, you know, have the default mode be that they are, you know, completely, you know, leaning forward and sharing anything that they're thinking or feeling and I'll do the same. And I'm looking for ideas. I'm looking for, I want them to be stress testing, you know, not just, and what's great is that working with people, especially Don and Benicio, but not only them, they don't just talk about their role.

Yeah. You know, they talk about the whole thing. Yeah. They talk about scenes that they're not in. Right. Because they know, like, it's a whole thing. Yeah. It's not any one person.

So they view it they have the experience and the intelligence to to know you've got to you've got to look at the whole thing yeah and they're so good yeah don was so good and benicio's you know he does his thing and he's always great but you know matt damon is this like yeah they're all profoundly good actors. Yes. It's sort of astounding, really. No, and it must be a, I can't imagine what it's like to be good at that. In what way?

You tell me, Mark. Tell me. What is it like to be a good actor? I'm trying. I'm trying. What does it feel like? I'm trying, Stephen. Tell me. What is it like to be a good actor? I'm trying. I'm trying. What does it feel like? I'm trying, Stephen. I'm trying to feel. Do you remember afterwards?

The one time I acted on stage in a high school, I have no memory of the actual thing. I remember coming out and I remember leaving. I literally don't remember what I did. Well, I think as I try to do more of it, imply myself to the opportunities I'm having and taking more chances with it. I feel, I find that there, you know, once you lock into what you're going to do or where you're going to come from, that being, it's an awfully present experience. And when you come out of it, it's like, like that feeling you had, like what just happened? And then like, but then

the fact is you have to repeat it, which I think is the bigger part of the job is like, how do you keep doing that? Yeah. And, and, and how do you make that continually interesting? And you've worked with guys that somehow have figured that out. Oh, absolutely. Cause that's the whole job. It's like, Hey, that was great. You really nailed it. Now we're going to do it 20 more times. And they do it. I don't know. You know, I'm trying to, you know, I enjoy it.

And I want to believe I'm doing okay with it. And sometimes I do. And that's good. And do you enjoy everything that goes with it? The other tasks? Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, it's... Is the social part of it okay?

Yeah, most of the time. You know, I'm a little, like, you know, in order to sort of maintain my thing and not bleed. Like, you know, because of my insecurity over my life, I've known, like, you know, don't hang around if you're not... If you're feeling needy, you know You get off set and ride it out and then convince yourself that you're okay and get back in the saddle. But outside of that, yeah, I enjoy it. I like standing around eating and talking about things.

What were you going to say that we were pushing till the end? Your advice about the towel on the hotel room chair is, is so right. And so true. And so useful. Yeah. Good. That I just wanted to say thank you. And I wanted you to know that every time I place a towel on a hotel room chair, I think about you. Well, I'm honored and moved, and I'm thrilled that I helped out in some way.

You know, if you can reach one person. Well, good. Well, I'm glad, Stephen. And to you, your movies have been very important to me. Many of them are unforgettable and have really changed the way I look at film. Well, I appreciate that as a movie director. Yeah. And I appreciate the towel thing is just a guy that spends time in hotel rooms.

Take care, man. I really enjoyed the movie. Thank you. Good to talk to you. Take care, man. I really enjoyed the movie. Thank you. Good to talk to you.

No Sudden Move is now streaming on HBO Max and treats yourself to any number of Steven Soderbergh films. What a great talk. Glad I got to talk to that guy. I'm glad I helped him out with my important towel advice for motel room desk chairs yeah

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