WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1242 - John Swab

Episode Date: July 8, 2021

John Swab could have been a real world version of the characters from his films who are casualties of addiction and criminality. But his desire to create art and his natural talents won out and set him on the road to recovery. John tells Marc how he channeled his experiences into his films Run with the Hunted and Body Brokers while remaining a true independent filmmaker. They also talk about John's life in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the influence of Larry Clark, and their shared love of Sam Peckinpah. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? How's it going? How, how, how, how are ya's happening? How's it going? How are you? Yeah.

How's it going with you? Did you get that thing fixed? It'll grow out. It'll grow out, you know? I mean, it's been a long time since you've had a nice haircut. You know, you forget. You forget. You forget that sometimes it takes time.

It's okay if people think you're talking too loud. It's just a natural transition period. We're all excited to not be crying. We're excited to not have to be in the house all the time with the people we love, barely. It's still a transition time. Nothing is normal. There is no collective culture. Everything is fragmented. Nobody knows what the other person knows because we're drawing from different perceptions of reality, different lenses, different portals. They're mining our minds and we are locking in to the one that suits that best. Has nothing to do with reality. So nobody's on the same page, but I hope you're well. Are you? How's the finger? How's

the toe? How's the leg? How's the toe? How's the leg? How's the ankle? How's the neck? How's the ears? The ears okay? I'm telling you, your hair looks fine, all right? I'm sorry you had to put the cat down. I'm sorry you had to put the dog down. I'm sorry the fish died. The kid's got to learn sometime, right? I mean, that's what fish are for. Not my idea. How's it going, folks? Look, a couple of things on the mind. First of all, John Swab is here. John Swab is a director who directed the film Body Brokers, which I liked a lot. That's the reason I talked to Melissa Leo a while back. I also wanted to talk about it with Michael K. Williams. I mean, it's about drugs. It's about recovery. It's about the dark side of the recovery racket, the business, the rehab, the business, moving money through the sickness of others. Something that happens a lot.

I would argue that almost all of American capitalism is built on that one way or the other. But this was specifically about the the rackets that grew out of the money being given through Obamacare to rehab centers and rehab clinics and drug treatment related medical procedures. I thought it was a great subject, a great movie, very compelling, dark, but I talked to John. I wanted to talk to Suave about it. I watched his other movies. Well, one of them, I couldn't find the other one,

but I'll get back to that in a minute. I would like to tell people that do not know that Sword of Trust, this is the last film from Lynn Shelton, my late girlfriend. It stars me and Michaela Watkins and John Bass and Jillian Bell, Toby Huss, Dan Backdahl. It's a great film and it's now on netflix sort of trust can be watched on netflix now so if you'd like to enjoy that movie if you've heard about it you're curious about it you can watch it also the tour my tour it's not really a tour i'll be doing some club dates in the near future august 5th, 6th, 7th.

I will be at the Comedy Works in Denver. I will be at Stand Up Live in Phoenix one night only, August 12th. I will be at Wise Guys in Salt Lake City, August 19th, 20th, and 21st. I will be at Helium in St. Louis September 16, 17, and 18. That's what I've got on the docket currently. I know I'm going to be up in Bloomington at some point. I don't know. Are those dates not up for sale?

I don't know what's happening. Are they sold out? I'll look. I'll check. But if you'd like to see me, the Dynasty shows for the next three Thursdays are sold out. The Dynasty shows for the next three Thursdays are sold out. And I don't know if I talked to you guys about it, about entering. I don't.

I definitely didn't talk to you about it. I. Okay. So, you know, the process. I'm losing my mind. You know, I'm trying to put together an hour. I don't know how much I've got. I know I've probably got about 20, 30 minutes, probably in a lot of things that I'm curious about and talking about and want to talk about. But this is the next. This was the giant step forward. The big leap forward was to move from the workout room, the comedy store, doing 15

to 20 every night, punching it out, getting into the right groove, the right tone, developing that relationship with the audience. Then last Thursday was the first night I was going to do the hour-long set, riff through it at Dynasty Typewriter. Haven't done that much time in a long time. Granted, I've been doing some Instagram lives, whatever. I get kind of hyper and weird and insecure about certain things and concerned, and I was just ready to really kind of be with my audience so I could sort of open my heart and move through some of the ideas I'm thinking about and some of the funny stuff I'm thinking about. So I'm ready to go. I've made some notes. I've got the right mindset. And I'm like, this would be great. This will be my people. It'd be a small room, couple hundred

friendlies, and we'll fucking do it. so i don't want anyone to really go with me uh except for jerry stall he's uh he's a guy that uh i trust uh my insecurities and my uh my darkness with so i i figure he'd get off on it and i trust his opinion about what goes down so jerry's gonna go with me he comes over we head out from my house down to Dynasty. And I noticed, you know, we're going down fucking Glendale Boulevard. Where the fuck do you get off? Yeah, all the way downtown. And we're about, you know, five, 10 minutes out and my tire is going flat. I can see it on my dashboard with the little thing. Air is going out of the tire quickly. And so we get, we pull up to Dynasty. They have a driveway in the back with a gate on it and at that point that there's no air in one of my tires so i'm fucked i've got a flat so that's you know i'm

heading into the hour trying to get in the right mind and i get a flat so we pull up to the gate and right as another car had just pulled into a space that wasn't a space right next to where i got to pull in big car luxury car I want to say a Cadillac. I'm not sure. Maybe it was a big car. And I'm like, what the fuck's this guy doing? What is he doing? And, you know, it wasn't even a space.

I had to kind of pull around him to get in the driveway and then walk out to the front of Dynasty to get someone to come open the gate. And I got a flat tire on the back tire, and it's 7.30 times at eight and I'm like what's up with this dude in this car it's just a big dude just sitting in the car I'm like is there gonna be fucking trouble and you know I I get out of the car to uh to sort of deal with the gate and then this guy gets out of his car it's a big dude like classic, you know, East Coast looking big dude.

Older dude, like Italian, like old school looking big dude, like an Italian looking guy. And I'm looking at him thinking, like, what what are we doing? You know, he's smoking a cigarette. And I'm like, what what what is happening here? And he goes, oh, my. You're him. Mark Maron. It's Mark Maron.

You're Mark Maron. Oh, my. My wife loves you. She's online. Right. Hold on a minute. He's calling his wife. Hey, baby. Mark Maron. You're Mark Maron. My wife loves you. She's online right now. Hold on a minute. He's calling his wife. Hey, baby, Mark Maron's right here in front of me. Mark Maron, come over and meet him.

You want to meet my wife, right? I thought you were an asshole, but she loves you. You're all right. Mark Maron is here. I'm like, oh, my God. How is this happening? How is this guy going to be in the room of love? How is this the guy? Why is this the first thing? I got a flat tire, my God, how is this happening? How is this guy going to be in the room of love? How is this the guy?

Why is this the first thing? I got a flat tire, and I got this guy here, and he's calling his wife. He's like, what do you want me to call AAA? I got gold. I got AAA gold. I'm like, take it easy, man. I'm going to deal with the tire. I'll call him.

It's no problem. Here comes my wife. Mark Maron, do you want a picture? I'm like, holy shit. It's a scene in front of the theater in Annie Hall. I'm here with two guys. I'm with the cast of The Godfather. I'm standing here talking to two guys named Cheech. It was one guy named Cheech, but his name wasn't named Cheech. I forget his name now, but he was very excited for his wife. So his wife comes. I say hi, but I got to deal with the tire. And Jerry is at this point, like when I come back to see if the guy's going

to open the gate, he's already trying to sort of edge away from the situation and walk towards the theater. I'm like, where are you going? And the guy's like, I called AAA. I'm like, hang up. Don't call AAA. I'm going to take care of this. Hang up the phone. And his wife goes, come on, honey, hang up the phone. Let him deal with it. Don't make a big deal. I'm like, please, please go in the theater. Relax. You know, just let me deal with this and he's like you sure Mark I can take care of it you know I build buildings I'm a you know I'm building a high-rise down on Pico I'm the contract I'm like all right all right I gotta I gotta get ready and his wife's like come on he needs to get ready I'm like oh my god what the fuck is

happening I got a flat tire they open the gate and you know and I'm like do I call AAA I don't want to fucking wait for triple a i don't want someone out here waiting for triple a i gotta deal with this man so i just fucking empty my trunk and i get the jack i got a spare in there i fucking pull the tire off i put the fucking spare on it's now 7 40 uh the the big guy has gone into the theater i go into theater i'm sweaty i'm dirty from changing tire. I don't know what the fuck is happening. But all I know in my head is that like, look, man, I don't believe in God shots. I don't believe in God.

I don't believe in a mystical order to things. Although occasionally I'll be sitting upstairs in the room upstairs looking out the window and a hummingbird will just hover and look right at me right inside. I don't know who that is. I don't know if the bird is like, look, man, you are right. Where's the fucking, why don't you fill up the feeder? Who are you? I don't know if that's my dead girlfriend sending a message.

I don't know why that my biggest concern is like, look, man, I don't want to perform for meatheads. I don't want to fucking, you know, have to worry about that. I just want to open up and do my thing. And this guy shows up and I get up there and I'm like, I got to do the job now. All I'm worrying about is I don't want that guy to fucking start talking in the middle. Like, here we go. This is what are we doing?

But this guy loves his wife. His wife is, you know, is my fan. But I am all I'm worried about is like, I don't want this guy making a scene. So I get up on stage and I tell the whole story of what I'm telling you right now I guess it was a territorial thing like I am like a professional don't fuck with me this is my space this is what I know is happening so you got something you want to get out let's do it now I just gave you five minutes of my time I may told the story got some good laughs I know you're in here are we good nothing great I've established my territory now let's do the show and it made me lean in man it made me fucking step up it made me

do the job I'm like you know what I'm an entertainer I've pried myself on being a club comic in a lot of ways I can make anybody laugh what am I worried about this guy and I did an hour and 25 minutes and it was a lot of great stuff definitely a nice foundation for the work I need to do and it gave me it made me realize that you know I'm ready you know I'll go do those clubs

and well you know I'll have enough to talk about I don't know why I didn't believe that I go on Instagram live and do it an hour and a half wandering around my house with my goddamn cats Buster and Sammy Red

Schmooly and and booster but then after the show i go outside and this guy's in this non-parking space he's standing there as i walk out he's got two flat tires someone flattened both his tires because he was parked wrong he's like if you want to come see the the high rise i'm like i get it i get it i'm good i'm good he's like what are you doing did you call triple a she's calling him. Can you believe it? Two flat tires. And I'm like, I can't, man. Hey, it's nice meeting you. I got out of there. I got out of there. It was quite a night, but it felt good. It felt good. I don't know if anyone cares. I don't know if it's relevant. I need it to be relevant to me. And it felt that way. It felt like there's

things to do. There's places to go. The world that is my world, the world of people that give a shit about my world will enjoy what I have to say. I can't speak for all the other worlds. So many worlds, people. So many fucking worlds, right? So Danny Trejo on monday and john swab today john swab also in recovery got a bit of time and it turns out these movies he made both of the running with the hunted is that what's called run with the hunted i think and body brokers come from you know his direct experience and it's it's pretty devastating and pretty dark and this is a dark tale but he is sober and he does seem grounded and uh you know it's a hell of a story oklahoma story but i was uh i was thrilled to talk to him this is a heavy recovery week big recovery week here on uhTF, some dark tales that end up okay, man.

There is hope. There is hope. You can get off it. You can stop it. I just talked to a person I kind of know but I kind of grew up with. They have a drinking problem. I mean, it's something so common. There needs to be an open dialogue around it.

But you can recover. You can change, as my two guests this week speak to. Body Brokers is now available to buy or rent on digital and on demand platforms, or you can watch it on Cinemax starting tomorrow, July 9th. He's got a new film as well coming out with most of the same cast, Melissa Leo and the crew. Ida Red begins playing on the festival circuit in August and will be coming to theaters later this year. You know, I didn't know what to expect. And I was glad I talked to this guy because I really, I think that the work he did was important. It certainly shined a light on something and certainly humanized a very dark, the dark world of addiction,

but also the very dark world of recovery scamming. So this is me talking to John Swa. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it

now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+.

18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. What are you doing here? Just come in for a thing? Dude, I came in, you know, I've been listening to this show a long time. Oh, really? Dude, I mean, nine years. Wow. Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, of course.

So when he told me, I was like, well, I Wow. Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, of course. So when he told me, I was like, well, I'm going to the garage, man. You know, I'm not going to do, you know, because all the interviews I've done for this movie have been virtually. Well, you know, I've been thinking about the movie. I've been thinking about Tulsa. I watched one of the other movies, the one that was easier to find, Run With the Hunted, I watched. And I couldn't find the other one. The other one seemed to be harder to find.

The other one, I think, has been, yeah, it's been pulled from the internet. Because of Marilyn Manson, or what? I'm not certain, but around the same time that that happened, it... Really? Yeah, yeah. It's called Let Me Make You a Martyr?

Let Me Make You a Martyr. They just pull it? They don't alert you? Like, you know, you're part of this? I, you know, the company that we did that deal with, I have some issues with. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, well, I mean, so where do you live now?

I live in Woodstock, New York right now. Oh, wow, that's nice. Yeah. How long have you been up there? I've been there about six years. Really? Yeah. Did you buy a farm?

No, I wish I could afford a farm. You're not living in an apartment, are you? No, I live on a nice house on a piece of land. And I actually just bought a house in Tulsa where I'm from this week. Going back? Going back. I do a lot of work there. You know, a lot of movies and, you know.

Yeah. I mean, I don't have any sense like i grew up in new mexico driven through oklahoma right i've only talked to a couple people who are actually from oklahoma i talked to wayne from oklahoma city right coin sure and then i talked to tim blake nelson oh yeah love that guy yeah one of the one of the great oklahoma jew Yeah, one of the great Oklahoma Jews. Yep. One of the five. One of the five. I know the other four. You do? Yeah.

And, you know, I know there's a rough history to it, but you grew up your whole life in Tulsa. Until I was 18, yeah. Yeah. Like, what is that? What did your, like, was your family there for generations? You know, I was just getting the history from my grandmother about all this. Really?

Yeah. So they were in Missouri before that. Right. And- God, people wanted to leave Missouri even then. I guess, yeah. I mean, it's still, still, it's still rough. Yeah.

And they moved to Indian Territory. Mm-hmm. And she doesn't know why. Really? Yeah. Her grandparents? Her grandparents. Yeah.

And she was giving me the- I mean, two days ago, I saw her and she was telling me all this. It was really interesting. And yeah, so she's been there ever grandparents. Yeah. And she was giving me that. I mean, two days ago, I saw her and she was telling me all this. It was really interesting. And yeah, so she's been there ever since. Wow. The Indian territory part sounds interesting. Yeah, it is interesting. And I guess we're native or portion thereof, but by whoever, I guess it was my great grandmother,

didn't sign the scrolls for fear of being, you know. What do you mean the scrolls for fear of being you know uh what do you mean the scrolls like so what apparently i'm gonna i'm gonna botch this but uh you know if you signed the scrolls we'll call them um you know you basically are on record as having you know native american person yep and you can get free health care and all these kinds of casino money exactly exactly yeah so anyway um free of things. And casino money. Exactly. Yeah. So anyway. Free healthcare and the casino money.

Exactly. Yeah. The new perk. Yeah. The American dream. Yeah. But so you don't know. You got no proof is what you're saying.

I don't have any proof. You're not going to be able to produce your movie with any of that weird casino money. No. No. But if you did know, what tribe do you think it would be? A creek is what I've been told. I can't imagine like just talking about it now the expanse of all those people and where they ended up is horrifying and you can feel the weight of it though there can't you it's it's heavy yeah yeah like in tulsa

i imagine just the you know on the streets uh yeah i mean there's a there's uh tulsa's an interesting place um and and i've grown to realize that to realize that the longer I was away from it and now the more I'm there and older, there's a lot of history there. Right. What draws you to it still other than like, hey, there's that store I used to go to? Just work. Yeah? I mean, I've made, I guess, five movies there now. So you got two in the can that aren't out?

Yeah. Okay. We just wrapped one in Montana, actually. That was not shot in Oklahoma. That one's called Ida Red? No, that one's coming out this fall. Yeah. We just shot a movie called Candyland, which is about lot lizards, a horror movie. That comes out, I don't know why.

I was hoping it was about the board game. It's, you know. So you got Melissa Leo in the new one, too and ida red yeah yeah i love that woman well yeah she's amazing yeah what's that movie about that movie is about it's kind of like you know once after we got done with body brokers i needed to kind of uh take a break from the social responsibility of a movie like that where and and you know i love uh 70s uh you know crime cinema and which is kind of an homage to you know uh straight time or you know the getaway or oh really i love peckinpah is kind of peckinpah all day long man yeah i used to do a yearly peckinpah film festival

really yeah but i go all the way back to like ride the High Country and go all the way through. Just watch them. I love them. I love the, like, I can watch Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia. That's my favorite. I mean, it's, I mean. Where he's just talking. More notes. Talking to the head.

Talking to the head. Oh, man. Like, yeah. Yeah. Just flies buzzing around. Yeah. Yeah. That movie's crazy.

Yeah. And I watched, what do i like i think my least favorite one i even watched i hadn't watched the killer elite in a long time and like maybe since i saw it with my dad or like when i was a kid sure i watched that again it's much better than i remember right and i don't watch convoy although they shot that in albuquerque when i was a kid and i went down to the hilton Hotel to see if I get autographs from the people in Convoy because it was one of those weird everyone was in it movies. Sure.

And I ended up meeting Ernest Borgnine. That was a big day. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. My favorite's Getaway. Yeah, it's great. It's great. It's Steve McQueen.

I just, I can't get enough of that guy. I talked to Sally Struthers about it. Wow. Did you listen to that one? No. Because that's the one she's in, right? Yeah. She plays the veterinarian's wife. And we talked about that dude, that guy who was in The Godfather. Wow. Did you listen to that one? No. Because that's the one she's in, right? She plays the veterinarian's wife.

And we talked about that dude, that guy who was in The Godfather. Yes. What's his name? I wish I could remember his name. I can't remember his name, but I can't forget his face. Yeah. Well, she talked about that scene with him. That was a great character.

He played the Turk in Sollozzo and The Godfather. Those guys that were around, those players. Yeah. You seem to be trying to build a little crew. You know, I like working with people I like, you know, and it's fun to make movies, especially the size of movies we've been making. You know, it's much easier if the people, you know,

are friends of yours, you know. Sure, yeah. So, like, in Tulsa, you got brothers and sisters? I have a little brother and a little sister, yeah. Oh, really? You're the oldest one? I am. And your folks are still around?

They are. And what do they do? My father is a criminal defense attorney now. Really? Yeah, yeah. What do you mean now? Like a new thing? He used to be on the other side.

So when I was a kid, he was part of the- A prosecutor? A prosecutor for the- Paying his dues? Yeah, paying his dues. And then they just flip over and try to get people off yeah well you know you have enough kids and you need to you know yeah make money i guess yeah no of course yeah oh that's interesting what's your mom do she's uh she's an artist you know like what painting all sorts of stuff you know um video stuff when i was it was, you know, she was doing photography, doing painting. Yeah.

Yeah. My mom was like that, too. So, like that, so there is a, I guess I have to, and I think most of us have to not make assumptions about Tulsa. You're telling me that, like, I'm getting the sense that there's some, you know, kind of sophisticated, intelligent, creative people in Tulsa. Yeah, there is. There is. And, you know, a lot of- There's a community. intelligent creative people in Tulsa yeah there is there is and you know a lot of community there's a community there's a community uh and I guess that's changed a lot since um since I was a kid

but yeah it seems to be kind of building a bit of a community yeah is it like do you feel that people are like coming back do you feel like that it's on the verge of a some sort of uh resurgence I don't know about a resurgence Tulsa going to be the new Austin? You know, I think they'd like to. That's their pitch. But I know that, you know, since the pandemic specifically, I mean, tons of people from, you know, California. And, you know, they're moving, I think, Texas, California, or Texas, New Mexico, and Montana have seen, like, you know, crazy amounts of people just moving in from the east and west coast. Yeah, I missed my shot. I grew up in New Mexico and Montana have seen like you know crazy amounts of people just moving in from the east and west coast yeah I missed my shot I grew up in New Mexico right they're kind of

holding on to this idea like I'm gonna buy a house in New Mexico but I could never really follow through with it because like what am I gonna do there right yeah I know I don't know if I want to live there right it'd be nice to have a house there but then how much time I'm gonna spend in there and like when I go back I'm like okay so I'm home.

What am I going to do here? Right. But you're going to be sitting around writing scripts and putting shit together. Yeah, my wife loves it there. Your wife is in the movie. She's in Body Brokers.

She's in a lot of my movies, yeah. She's in Body Brokers? Yeah. I'm trying to remember. What'd she play? She plays the girl in the treatment center with Melissa Leo.

She's crying and telling you about her daughter. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But she's got that great part in Run With the Hunted. Yeah, yeah. She's great. As the woman that the guy saved when he was a kid.

And she's in Let Me Make You a Martyr. Yeah. She's in Candyland. She's in a great band called the Bobby Lees. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what she does. You guys got kids?

No kids. Is that going to happen? I don't know what we're gonna do sorry i don't want to pressure you or anything but let's talk about like tulsa in terms of like because i'm glad i watched the uh run with the hunted because you know i it was one of those movies where i don't know if it was intentional or not i don't know what is intentional on on behalf of directors. But I realized this morning that you're kind of playing, you know, the...

Because I couldn't quite understand the kind of Oliver Twist nature of the thing, you know, in terms of the setup. You know, like there's like a Fagin and there's all... But then it wasn't really that. And then I realized because of the reference in the movie that you're kind of playing the the neutered S.E. Hinton sense of childhood against the realities of what that childhood becomes. Sure, sure. Is that on purpose? I think I guess so. Yeah. And that was beautifully put, you know. So, yeah. And that was beautifully put, you know.

Because he's reading S.E. Hinton, and it's clear that, like, you know, when you get into the grid of what those kind of lives become, you know, kids who are on the streets for so long, and then, like, his little crew, they all seem so innocent, even though they were supposed to be criminals. And I don't know if it was just a matter of, like, who you could cast or who you found where you shot it or what it was, but it definitely felt like those kids came out of the outsiders. Right.

And Michael Pitt's character was a hardened fucking monster in a way. Right, right. And he was reading S.E. Hinton. Right. So it was sort of, I realized, because when I'm watching, I'm like, you could be a kid and watch this with your parents if you wanted to. Right. Though it doesn't end well.

You're not a Hollywood ending guy, that your parents if you wanted to right though it doesn't end well you don't like you're not a hollywood ending guy that's for sure right right it's more of a poetic ending i guess yeah poetic justice ending yeah that was my first movie i made sober um so you know i came out of uh you know the the depths of everything and wanted to do so much in one movie and you know i think there's a lot of things i was trying in that movie and and some worked out better than others and uh and i'm really proud of it but it's it's definitely a lot yeah well i think that like whether that was intentional or not it was sort of interesting to me right that there were these two worlds and i didn't really realize it till this morning because when i was it, there was part of me that was like,

well, is he trying to sort of like get kids to watch it? Like there, there was a tone to those kids where it almost felt, you know, kind of like designed to help kids. Sure. I think,

yeah. I mean, I was really at the time fascinated with the idea of, I really wanted to make a kid's movie. Because I grew up like, I mean, I was really, at the time, fascinated with the idea of, I really wanted to make a kids movie. Yeah. Because I grew up, like, you know, Outsiders and Rumblefish were filmed where I was from. Holy shit, Rumblefish. Yeah.

I mean, I prefer that to the Outsiders. But, you know, so I had this weird attachment to these movies, and I wanted to tell half a kid's story, and then, you know, where do you think it's going and then take it the exact opposite direction and, you know, turn it into this other thing. And, you know, so, yeah, I think your analysis of it was great. Yeah, critique was great. Well, yeah, because what becomes different is that, you know, there's usually some sort of lesson in those movies.

And some people go down, but not that hard. Right? Right. But in your version, it's like, here are these kids, and the scene in the truck, and just the whole play of, what is Ron Perlman? I mean, I'm generally speaking. You know? I mean, I've talked to to him he's a lovely guy hysterical yeah and he's a great actor he has a hell of a presence but like that character was like there's moments where you're like is this guy

really fucking evil yeah but i thought the script was great in that you know it didn't let on a lot of stuff they kept it mysterious you didn't know how dirty people were. Right. So I liked that. And then I started to wonder, okay, Tulsa, how much of an influence was Larry Clark on you coming? Huge. I mean, I- That was the hero? That was the guy, right? That was the Tulsa guy.

There's a few Tulsa guys, but he's kind of the, I guess, the black sheep of the Tulsa guys. Literally, I think. Well, the the book of photographs yeah i mean because i i was thinking about that i was wondering because um because michael pitt was in bully yep and like and then i don't know what happened that guy you know he sort of disappeared it was good to see him i didn't even fucking recognize him when i was watching him in your movie yeah uh because he's a good actor and an unbelievable actor yeah it really is yeah and also you know who i like is the guy who played It was good to see him. I didn't even fucking recognize him when I was watching him in your movie. Yeah. Because he's a good actor. He's an unbelievable actor. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. He really is, yeah. And also, you know who I like is the guy who played the dirty dad in that movie. Oh, yeah, Brad. Brad, yeah. Brad Carter? Yeah, Brad Carter, yeah. Like, I've seen him in stuff where you're like, oh, fuck, that guy kind of means business. He steals any scene he's in.

Yeah, right, yeah. But it did remind me that there is a, you know, that you're kind of tapped into a lineage there. So, you know, because you go back to kids with the Larry, which is Larry Clark's other movie. He's made a few. But really, the book Tulsa is a menacing kind of impressionable book. It's, I remember when I first saw it, I was a kid. Right, yeah.

And you're like, wow, it's about my city. Yeah, right. You know, but it changed me. I remember, you know, there's movies like that that I saw that changed me. And just realizing, you know, I knew what a camera was, but I didn't know it could do that. You know, it could go in those places. Oh, yeah. And, yeah, I mean, Larry's book is, you know.

There's a couple of them, right? There's Tulsa, and then there's the ones he shot in Times Square, which are disturbing. And then there's the teenagers. Right, Teenage West. Yeah. Yeah, there's a few others, but I think. Yeah, Tulsa was good. Just those pictures of that idiot who shot himself, you know, like in the leg.

Right. And you're like, what the fuck are these guys? They're just sitting around shooting speed. Right, yeah. Hanging out with guns. Yeah. And I was like, that's Oklahoma in my head. Yeah.'s uh well you know it kind of is in a lot of a lot of places you know and uh and i'm proud of it you know in a weird way but um because i'm i'm you know that guy and uh

you know at a cellular level but um i think you know people don't realize how big of an influence larry was on pop culture or, you know, cinema at large. You know, just with those photos. I mean, you know, Scorsese, you know, references them. Paul Schrader does. I mean, a lot of people that, you know. Paul Schrader. Yeah.

Yeah. I love Paul Schrader, too, man. I'm sure. Why wouldn't you? I do, too. Like, you know, these are dark men with problems. Yeah. Yeah, right.

You know, I have that in me i have that in me i have the feeling you went further out than i did right right well what what was your trip how'd you get all fucked up when did that start uh you know same thing you probably have heard a bunch you know where i just uh 13 14 came out you know just feeling feeling a little Off You know, just slowly You know, mixed up along the way Got into the life Your parents seemed like they were okay people They are good people, you know I just think, you know, when I

Was growing up there It was a very Kind of walled off place, you know Tulsa Small community, very religious. And did you grow up with the Christian stuff? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

So your folks are that way? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess there's a lot of Jesus in Oklahoma. Dude. What brand? Jesus, guns, beef, teen pregnancy.

We do those things well. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. That's good, man. Yeah, so. Is that on the sort of the state's kind of like when you're like what about oklahoma team pregnancy meet jesus come on come on down most of you are welcome we'll let you know if you're not uh yeah so how religious? You.

Oh, me? When you were brought up. When I was brought up, I mean, I went to some Catholic school for a little while. Oh, so it's Catholic, not Baptist? No. No. And it's a pretty just religious place. Now I am not. I'm more, I guess you could call it spiritual or whatever.

Sure, sure. So that means how long have you been sober? Coming up on six years. Oh, pretty fresh still. Yeah, yeah. Jeez. Yeah. So how bad did you get?

Pretty bad. Yeah, pretty bad, yeah. It was pretty rough, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Like a lot of different things? Mostly booze, or did you get like out of your mind? No, it was mostly junk.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Oh, that's a tough one. Good for you. Yeah, junk, speed, crack. Oh, crack? Yeah. Oh, that's a tough one. Good for you. Yeah, junk, speed, crack. Oh, crack. Yeah, crack really. That's good, man.

When I met that, it was beautiful. Yeah. Wow, just sitting around with that pipe. Yep. Yeah, waiting 15 minutes, going again. Going again. Hell of a life. What did you do today?

That. Yep. All the waiting in the night. Yep. And then you come down with the dope. Yep. Oh, system yep yep landing gear landing gear you called it yeah that was my that was the gift and the curse of my cocaine days is i i didn't have a connection for landing gear yeah and i wasn't really a dope guy so like you know it was just me sitting around you know my heart pounding you know jerking off for nine hours to see if I could come down.

But the lack of landing gear, I think, is what got me sober more quick. Yeah, yeah. Because you lose your mind quicker without landing gear. Yeah, the landing gear kept me out there, you know, quite a long time, yeah. Well, you look pretty healthy. You know, I've made some changes recently, you know, diet changes. Oh, really? Yeah, you know.

So you were eating shit for five years? You know, just not. I was eating a pound of bacon for the first year of sobriety, you know, every day. A pound? Yeah. Oh, that's not that much. Yeah. But it's good.

You wouldn't think, but it adds up, you know? Yeah. But that's one of those things where you first get in trouble. People are like, hey, man, as long as you're not drinking. Exactly. Do whatever you want. Right. And you're like, well, what can I do with that?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's a million things I could do. There bacon porn yeah gambling this is great all of them yeah yeah bacon i i hadn't thought of that what'd you get your uh how your numbers how's your blood numbers you know i went and did my blood uh i guess it was a year ago and they pulled it out and they were like this is like motor oil motor oil. You need to change up everything. Stop the bacon.

Yeah. So I started exercising and all that, and I feel much better. Yeah. Well, God, you got through that five years, man. And that's hard. It's hard. I know dope guys, a lot of times they can't quite do it, so they end up just figuring out a way to kind of chip along, not with dope, but with a little booze, a little weed, whatever.

Yeah, I tried all that. Can't do it. It just doesn't work for me. Yeah, because you want to go back to the other. Exactly, yeah. It's like, what am I doing here? Yeah. So you were driven by, it sounds like in the same way that I am,

that your heroes were these dark characters that somehow managed to survive. I was thinking about that today, you know, about these... There are certain guys that just don't die, you know? And then there are guys that do die. But any time you're... If your hero, especially if your hero is some sort of outlaw or some guy who's living out there on the fringe creatively and they don't die, I don't think it's good for us.

I think it's... Like, sometimes when they... Because I was thinking about like you know even like bowie you know i guess i can't remember the last time i bought a bowie record but when he dies you're like oh man gotta buy everything yeah or just like i can't believe he died what do you mean he wasn't that young he was sick or whatever but there's something about those guys dying that implies our own mortality right right because we don't know it right but we kind of expect those guys to live forever sure right so it's just sort of wild that the the drug heroes a lot of them are still

fucking kicking yeah what'd you think of schrader's last movie um what was it the priest one the priest one i mean i i enjoyed it you know people really loved it i didn't i didn't love it like they loved it i'm i'm more partial to like hardcore, you know, and like the old. I just watched that again recently. Oh, man. That one gets, it's crazy, right? I'm a huge Peter Boyle fan, too. So, yeah, I mean, when he shows up in the diner and then the guy, you know, when he's in the theater watching the video, I mean, it's a great.

With George C. Scott? Yeah, it's a great. With like his hand over one eye? Yeah, I mean, it's. And then when he plays the director, he puts on that mustache. Oh man, it's awesome. Yeah. Like that was going to end well, though.

That's one of those movies where it's like, is that a good ending? Yeah. Well, you know, I think that's what was so nice about movies back then is that they just ended like that. Oh yeah. You know, and nowadays... Where you're like, what? Yeah.

You know, and nowadays, I mean, it's a problem if you end a movie like that. You know, I can tell you firsthand, like people don't, they don't want that, you know? I mean, there's all this Marvel shit out there, and everybody wants everything. Sure. But even the smaller movies, you know, are, like, it takes a certain amount of fortitude, I guess, or courage to put them out there. It's easier to put them out there, but I guess the mainstream audience, I guess what we're learning is, there's a lot of people that just want to feel better.

Right. Or want to avoid life right right so they really cannot understand why you would put a movie out exactly that makes them feel worse right which are my favorite kind of movies exactly you know like they're honest there's an honesty to them like i mean come on man like the end of um of run with the huntedunted is sort of like a poetic thing. You know, that movie, I learned more making that movie than any other movie I've made. And one of the reasons is, is because when Michael came, we shot 10 days. Yeah. And we didn't have that character to play the older version, Michael's character. Okay.

So Michael finally agreed and he came to town and he wanted, you know, we ended up rewriting the script for like two days together. And so a lot of that portion of the movie was, uh, I wouldn't say improvised, but, um, but more instinctively made on the day. Um, so, you know, I, I, I wasn't as precious about the script there as i was with other films so i i don't think it was something that i really set out to do months before in these the movies i i'm realizing more about myself each one i make but uh you know with body brokers too they're they're kind of all about a cycle you know and and you know she's driving off into the end of the night he's there and now she's kind of assumed responsibility for these boys.

And how he assumed responsibility for her when they were kids. Oh, I see. So that was the idea. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I put that together. I guess we should tell people what it's about. It's about these two kids who were 13 years old, and they were neighbors.

kids who were like 13 years old and they were neighbors and and the the boy had a sort of stable family and this girl not so stable to the degree where you know her father was this drunken incestuous pig so then you know the 13 year old boy you know saves her well kills the the old man and then splits and grows up on the streets under the tutelage of some modern day fagans pretty much yeah yeah there you go and then she goes to find him right like he's reported missing and stays missing and lives a life of crime and she goes to find him and then does find him that's well that's the story so the idea is that she's got to take care of those four kids i guess so yeah yeah yeah i don't know that like

after it was done that i registered that you know like yeah i guess what does happen to him there was part of me that's sort of like i thought he was just going to say like okay you guys can run free now he says something similar to that i think yeah but is that like is was that shot in tulsa yes so is it really that sparse because there definitely long, big shots of open road there that didn't look like you had to close down the roads. No, I mean, it's amazing. You go out at like 10, 11 at night, and there's nobody on the streets. There's something really nice about that that I find. I love to go out and walk in the night.

Nice or scary. Yeah, both. Now, these guys, because I was talking to my producer, I was telling him, it's like, so when you reach out to them, because I've been reached out to about movies. Sure. So usually it's sort of like, how long? How long do I got to shoot? Sure.

How many days? Right. And that sometimes if the script is good, because I imagine, I know Melissa loves your writing and the writing is so good. So these guys want to do it. They don't know what's going to happen with the movie. Right. But usually it comes down to like, if it's a week, I'll do it.

Right? Yeah. Some people, you know, it's funny because others would prefer more time. Yeah. You know, people like Melissa, she's like, I won't do three days, but I will do seven. Right. Even though it's the same amount of material. Right.

Oh, just to make sure she does a great job. Yeah. seven right even though it's the same amount of material it's just like to make sure she does a great job yeah and you know we just did a movie and and it was the same thing on candy land uh where the guy wanted extra time yeah same amount of money you know and it's i i appreciate that kind of stuff but yeah i mean you usually assume you know as as little time as possible for most people you know yeah um now the body brokers which is you is the movie that got us here, now, you went to rehab? Oh, yeah. How many? I lost, I mean, tens.

Oh, really? Ten plus. So you were one of those, it took a while. It took a bit, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. So you know that life, you know that experience. Very well, yeah.

And you just kept going back, though. Yeah, well, you know. Did you get court ordered? No. you just you just couldn't fucking no it's it's not even that i couldn't it was more so like you know i lived uh you know somewhere between on the street and then kind of wherever i could find for so long that tulsa no and uh i mean all over uh Los Angeles uh New Jersey really what was that part of the life just you went like you were you just went to these different so you left Tulsa and before you had started making movies obviously right right right and you went to New Jersey no I went to um I guess I went to Colorado for a little while. To do what? Sell drugs.

Oh, okay. Got involved in that kind of stuff. And then I came back to Oklahoma. When you were like 18? I was, yeah. 19? 18, 19, 20. And then I went to Chicago for a little bit.

Two. I got a scholarship to an art school there. I put together a portfolio or whatever, and I got about a cup of coffee there before I checked myself out. You had big plans, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You're going to do it right this time. I'm going to do it right.

It's going to be great. And tried to kick dope up there. It didn't work. On your own. Yeah, on my own. Yeah. And then I went to los angeles and uh san diego and it just got worse worse and worse and worse and what's the new jersey part uh so

i was when i was making the first movie um and a short film before um a guy and i were working together and and he lived in new jersey so we would would go and, and, you know, spend some time up there. So it got, it's worse than San Diego. Yeah. Yeah. It got really bad there. Yeah. Yeah.

Like you weren't, you were incapacitated, not doing anything. No, I mean, I was, you know, um,

I was selling, I was selling things to, to, to make my habit, uh, you know, to keep, maintain a habit.

And, you know, it just got really dark, you know? Wow. Yeah. You're lucky to be a live guy. Yeah. maintain a habit. And, you know, it just got really dark, you know. Wow. Yeah. You're lucky to be a live guy. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's interesting that you were able to, like that somehow or another your talent or your desire to create one out. Absolutely. And that, you know, you're capable of it. I mean, like that doesn't always happen, but I have to assume that has something to do with the fact that you are capable of it. Because a lot of people have dreams of doing things that get lost in drugs, but there's no indication that they could have done them anyways.

Right. So when did you know that you could, when did you start doing creative work? When I was like 14 or 15, I started started painting that was my first thing i did because your mom was a painter yeah yeah and i got into it and um do you have a feel for it yeah i was i was actually i was pretty good yeah i did i you know eventually did pretty well with it but you know i i took a painting over to this woman's house she owned a salon she said how much and as a joke i said 800 yeah and she went in the and gave me a check and I was like, I'm just never going to work again in my life. What a wreck.

So once I got a little taste for that, it kind of stuck with me. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I've never not, I've wanted to do what I'm doing for as long as I can remember. Where did you get the chops? I mean, when did you,

did you go to school for filmmaking? No, no. I mean, I've just, I've made a lot of mistakes. I mean, when did you, did you go to school for filmmaking? No, no. I mean, I've just, you know, I've made a lot of mistakes. I mean, but how's it start? You know, I started writing what I thought was a script, but was more like a, you know, some terrible novel. Yeah. When was this? This was when I was in, you know, 14, 15.

Yeah. This was when I was in, you know, 14, 15. Yeah. And, you know, I kicked it around, tried to figure out how to make a movie, finally decided, okay, well, this movie all takes place in one day. What happens the day before? Yeah. And so it was like, we decided we'd make a short film about the day before.

And so that's what we did. And, you know, that got me a taste of, okay, this is how you make something on a smaller scale. But who'd you get in touch with? Were these just guys you were hanging out with? Yeah. What'd you shoot it on? We shot it on an Alexa. We got on a Craigslist and met some people and put some people together. I met my wife.

She was an actress. She auditioned for this and was in the short film. This is when you were in LA? No, this was on New Jersey. Oh, New Jersey. Yeah. She was an actress. She auditioned for this and was in the short film. This is when you were in L.A.? No, this was on New Jersey. Oh, New Jersey. Yeah, and we just put it together, and in three days we shot a short, and I remember just the feeling I had of making something

in the process of filmmaking was, it was addicting to me, you know, so. And did you enter it into things? Yeah, I mean, it, you know, you can, it actually ended up it played like uh in cons uh short programming section um which you know um didn't really do anything for me but uh but what we did was we rented out theaters around the country and we got in a car and we drove around and we would paper the town and just try and get people to

come in and see our short film. How long was it? It was 20, I think it was 23 minutes. And that was the whole evening for those people? Pretty much. And, you know, some people showed up, some people didn't. And either way, we'd tell them what we were trying to do. And finally, we went back to Tulsa and we had a screening and we packed the house.

And it played and people were really freaked out or disturbed. What was it about? It was about an abusive father who is kind of taking advantage of his daughter. Yeah. And she has a brother and he's trying to get her out and get her to run away with him. So this is sort of like you brought in this theme and yeah i worked this theme out yeah i worked it out and um so you know the next morning i got a call at about 6 a.m and it was this guy that i'd known you know from a kid i knew his dad and he said where are you and uh can you meet me for coffee met him for coffee and

he said you know i saw your film and you know how coffee? Met him for coffee. And he said, I saw your film. And how much money do you want? And I told him, 200 grand. And he was like, great. To make your next movie. Yeah, great. Let's make the feature movie you want to make. Yeah. And so we started prepping it.

And that's what we did. I can make you a martyr? Let me make you a martyr. Now, so what's that movie about since we can't find it anymore? That movie is about the brother of this girl. He comes back from being out of town. He's been gone. Oh, I see.

So this is what you mean by the day before. Right. So it's six years later and he comes back to town. So you had this other story planned. Yeah. This feature I had written, been, since I was 14 years old. Yeah. Okay, so the short was sort of the pitch.

Yeah, it was the pitch. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some guy took it just by coincidence? No, I mean, he's not a film guy, you know. But you invited him to the screening? Yeah, we just, you know, I mean, we had done, I think, 10 screenings, 10 cities. Looking for money.

Looking for money. Okay. Looking to meet people. Okay, so you were inviting you know specific people yeah i mean at the end it was just like anybody that'll come and watch the fucking thing you know and uh and this guy showed up and you know i'm extremely grateful for the opportunity you know so what happens in that movie that we can't see yeah so she he comes back to save his sister, to finally get her. He's ready. And it basically all takes place in one day of kind of him coming back to his old life and having to reckon with all of these different problems that he left and messes. And the dad and him end up having, you know, kind of squaring off a little bit.

You would think, yeah. Yeah. So the dad's involved in crime and stuff. Is that Marilyn Manson? Marilyn Manson is the hitman that the father hires to kill his son. Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

I haven't talked about this movie in a long time, so you're helping me formulate my pitch. Yeah, yeah. So who played the dad? Mark Bone Jr. Oh, so he plays a heavy in that yeah yeah yeah he's great in that movie he's yeah he's one of those guys that i've been seen around for years i can't even remember the first place i saw him but he's around like he's always sort

of around i feel like you know i i don't think i've met him but i think i've seen him somewhere he seems like a guy who's awesome guy man yeah he's got a like he seems like he's got a past he's a real guy yeah he's he's one of those. Yeah. He seems like he's got a past. He's a real guy. Yeah. He's one of those people you meet and he's like, you could sit and just have dinner with him and have a great time. It wouldn't feel any- Yeah.

Yeah. He's a real guy. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that movie. Right. And what happened to it? You didn't get a distributor?

No, we did. We did. We did a distribution deal. It got out there. It actually, because of Manson, a lot of people saw it. You know, a lot more people than I think we anticipated seeing it saw it. And what was the feedback on that? It was, you know, amongst the horror and like kind of the cult folks, they loved the movie.

So you would classify it as a horror movie? No, I wouldn't. I would classify it as like a pul a pulpy drama okay you know um now do you like the horror movies you know i i do now you didn't grow up with it no i didn't i've been you know kind of going back to when we just when we did this horror movie recently uh with melissa no this one was not with that was uh ida Red was with Melissa. That's an action. That's not a horror movie. Yeah. The Candyland's a horror movie. Candyland.

Okay. And, you know, after Ida Red with Melissa, I started kind of binging on horror and got really fascinated with it and wanted to make a horror movie. What is it about it you think? I think it's- Because I can't lock in. I find it- I find it, you know, when I grew up, I was like, it's campy.

It's not scary. I don't- To me, it's frustrating, especially if it's a thriller. It's you know when i grew up i was like it's campy it's not scary i don't to me it's frustrating especially if it's a thriller it's like get on with it yeah kill all of them what are you gonna do i agree and as a screenwriter what i what attracted me was how liberating it is because all of these things you kind of get penalized for uh when writing a drama or uh you know a movie like a true crime or whatever you'd classify body brokers as you're actually kind of uh you're rewarded for with horror like the campiness like things being weird or not tying up or like there's kind of this freedom yeah i get it you know yeah i get like because i don't have any muscle to appreciate it because i know like um like what's his name rob

zombie you know does these sort of kind of like way over the top, pulpy, gross out horror movies with some of the original kind of B movie weirdos. Right. And it's sort of like, you know, a John Waters trip, but only with horror. Absolutely. Where, you know, I guess there is a camp to horror. I mean, like a campiness. And I think I just, I can appreciate it, but I'm not sure I enjoy it. Yeah, I mean, it took me making four movies before it to appreciate the simplicity of it.

So what do you want to do with it? What did you do with it that you hadn't done before in these other movies? Because like, it's like, okay, so like you get to a point and we can talk about body brokers in a second where, you know, these two movies that explore stories about drug abuse, incest, exploitation, you know, death by one's own compulsion that I guess that horror after a certain point is sort of like I want to make a funny movie pretty much absolutely you know like I can cover all those themes but we can have a little more fun yeah well you know so after we made the last one Ida Redd my producer Jeremy Rosen and I kind of had a talk and it was like okay what are we going to do now because I make all these movies with him and we're partners in these things. And I said, I had this idea for a horror movie. It won't cost us a lot of money. And it would be much,

it would be a big departure from whatever I've tried to do. Yeah. And so that was what was cool about it. It was kind of like going back down to square one with the amount of money we had. And, you know, we got all our friends in it. And it's more of a slasher John Waters vibe than like a straight up, you know,

just run-of-the-mill horror movie. So it's about truck stop hookers and cults and, you know. Yeah. You know, Tulsa. Tulsa, exactly. So there was something really liberating about not having a lot of money and trying to tell to tell uh you know well that was always the case with those movies right

generally speaking right yeah that's what does that's what developed that genre absolutely horror movie and that's and honestly that's what you know like you said make a comedy it is this one's a comedy to me i think people are going to find it extremely disturbing, my humor. But it's really, really, I'm proud of it. I get it. I mean, I don't know that I would have thought about it like that until I just had this conversation with you. Like, I always knew that there was a campiness to horror, but the ridiculousness of some horror. Right.

You know, just the amount of blood. Right. You know, the amount. Right. Right. horror right you know just the amount of blood right you know the amount right right it's i think it serves the same purpose uh to a certain type of person as as comedy right right sure definitely yeah yeah now with the body brokers like once you realize that um and i think i talked to Melissa Leo about this, about like, well, it's about the scams that people who owned rehab centers, the business built around Obamacare money that was afforded any recovery program that would establish itself as a recovery program. has a recovery program.

And the guys that ran them were usually funneling money through junkies, through testing, through turning junkies back out to get them back in so they could get the money. There were several different layers of scam that basically took advantage of the hopeless drug addict. Right. Right? So I was just curious in the making of the hopeless drug addict right right so i was just curious in in

in the making of the movie um what was what was the decision making process was there a conversation around whether to have the narrator or not uh there there never was um it was always there it was always there and that was the toughest part of the movie for me is again you know this is a huge sprawling thing um that how do you get all those scams into one movie about one exactly because you know i you know before i sat down to write it i thought about it okay without the the narrator what is this i don't think it really dips its toe in even you know i mean mean, you could just follow... Oh, I see. You needed the explanation.

Yeah, you need to kind of provide all of the color commentary and fill in the gaps of how big this actually is. Right, so you've got this sort of chipper Satan talking about the golden age of being able to game the system at the expense of junkies lives. Right, right. Okay, yeah. So that's a tone.

Yeah, it's a tone. And I didn't know how else to tell the story without being able to provide all the facts along the way. Right, because you wanted to cover all of them. Right, and I couldn't even cover all of them because you only have two hours or whatever it is. But when did you get hip to that like what why did that become a thing for you when you were in rehab did you realize it did you hear

about it did you know what was going on were you uh being used in that way all the above yeah yeah so i mean you know for me it didn't take me long when i went to rehab to realize that it wasn't uh It didn't take me long when I went to rehab to realize that it wasn't, they didn't have the best intentions for me, you know? Really? Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of these places have, you know, private funding or run by hedge funds. And I feel like, you know, hedge funds and people's health and well-being are, you know,

if they're not at odds initially, they eventually will be, you know? And, you know, the bigger these places grow and the more money that's at stake, the more corners you cut. Cutting corners, but the whole part about relapsing or bringing relapsers in on purpose to run money through them. I didn't know about that, but I got a buddy who I'd bounced it off of because he works in that business. He was like, oh, yeah, all of it. I think he knew the in that business and he was like oh yeah all of it i think he knew the guy that you based it on maybe maybe i mean there's a few of them he might know one of them um out here yeah there's yeah so you know i the first time i really got hip to it um i was in new jersey yeah i was uh kicking dope and i was really fucked up and in a bad place and uh you know i i googled

on my phone like drug treatment centers or whatever and i didn't even click on anything but somehow they just get your number and they start calling you oh wow and so you know i kicked for like three or four days this guy called me and he said hey you know would you like to come to treatment you know and i was like yeah i mean i guess sure and this is like the michael k williams character this is like the guy in the in the call center oh the call center guy and so he calls me and he's like you know and i'm like i don't know if i'm i'm ready yet whatever calls me back again the next day yeah keeps calling me yeah and eventually he uh i'm like you know fuck it i don't have any money i can't get any more dope yeah i'm i'm ready to go and um so the next time he calls i'm like hey i know, fuck it. I don't have any money. I can't get any more dope. Yeah. I'm ready to go.

And so the next time he calls, I'm like, hey, I'm ready. And he's like, all right, well, how long have you been clean or off drugs? And I said, about five, six days. And he's like, okay, well, you can't show up and piss dirty or piss clean. If you piss clean, we can't take you. I was like, all right, well, that's a problem. Yeah. And he was like, no, it's not. Just go to the Western Union.

I'm going to send you some money for the cab to the airport. How much is it? I was like, it's like 60 bucks. Yeah. I was like, all right, well, that's a problem. Yeah. And he was like, no, it's not. Just go to the Western Union. I'm going to send you some money for the cab to the airport. How much is it? I was like, it's like 60 bucks. Yeah. I was like, okay. He's like, go now. I'm going to buy your plane ticket. Yeah.

So I go to the Western Union. There's 1,000 bucks in the Western Union. And so, you know. 1,000 bucks? 1,000 bucks. Yeah. So I call him and he's like, yeah, you know, just get to the airport and make sure when you show up, you, you, you, you know, test positive for.

Right. And I'm like, oh, okay. So he said, use the money to get high. Absolutely. And then get on the plane. And then get on the plane. He didn't say that, but that's what I mean. You know, that's what he was saying.

So I called a cab, the cabbie took me all around town. I got everything, saw everybody. Yeah. And, uh, and then he drove me to the airport and I'm just slamming dope in the back of the cab the whole way. I get on the plane. I fly down to Florida. There's a guy waiting for me in a car.

I get in the car, and he's like, hey, so do you have anything on you? And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, it's isn't a trick question. I just need to know. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I do. And he's like, all right, we'll pull off. So we pull off at this little quick stop or whatever, and he's like, you want a 40? And I was like, yeah, sure. So he grabbed me me a beer and i just sat in the back of his car and you know was slamming dope and drinking a beer and drinking a beer and then he took me in and

dropped me off and so that was like blatant like a blatant example of how corrupt these places had so for that thousand bucks of investment he was able to run taxpayer money through you into the system that he was working for right did to the in the number like 35 40 000 dollars more yeah probably more right yeah wow yeah and and you knew so how could you not know there's some sort of scam to it so then to make matters worse i'm there it's a terrible place it's a really dirty you know in florida yeah it was it was a really rough place and uh and i called a buddy out here in los angeles i said you got to get me out of here you got to get me out of here and he's like uh and i knew he worked in treatment he was like well i can give you a guy's number who can right so i talked to this guy and he's like yeah we can

get you out here you know uh once you complete the 30 days we'll fly you out here and you can stay in our place i'm like okay and he's like, do you have anybody out there that would want to come with you? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, I'll pay you $1,000 per person you bring from that treatment center to mine. Really? Yeah, really. So I got to hop in my step now because I'm like, I go back into the cafeteria and I'm like, hey, man, you want to go to LA? You ever been to LA?

You're a funny guy. You could be a comedian. You want to go to L.A.? You ever been to L.A.? You know, like, you're a funny guy. You could be a comedian. You want to go to L.A.? I'll introduce you to everybody. You know? And so I got about six people to go with me. Really? Yeah.

On the same plane? No. So I flew ahead and then the next week, once they completed their time there, they went too. And I didn't know that this was wrong. You know? I just figured like, oh, you know, we're all going to Los Angeles together. And you make $6,000.

Exactly. It's like the best of both worlds so i did that and once i got there um it out to out here and and they showed up and i kind of started to realize that this was like a real thing that was going on because you know one of the scams yeah one of the scams yeah and um you know i ended up going back out with my six thousand dollars and getting high and you know taking myself on a little yeah you know a tour and then um i got sober later but you know after that um i'd been sober for about three years and i came out here to visit my wife when she was working and i talked to one of my buddies who ran a treatment center and he was like you gotta sit down with me and hear how how crazy this has gotten and I was like I have no interest in getting back into that I you know I'd really done a good job and running a clean program I didn't

want to be around anybody who was involved in it yeah and I ended up going and meeting with him eventually um went to a meeting and then afterwards we sat and talked and he broke it down for me and he called some people and had him come over and tell me what was going on and I couldn't believe it the amount of money and how this some people and had them come over and tell me what was going on, and I couldn't believe it, the amount of money and how this thing had kind of mushroomed into this real cottage industry. What was the doctor scam again? So the doctor scam is, you know, they will basically, you know, so if you're an opiate addict or alcohol,

you can get a chip, like an implant put in you, which will block the receptors to your brain for, you know, dopamine or whatever, or, you know, dopamine or whatever, or, you know, opiates. And so what they would do is, is anybody, you know, they would take anybody. They'd go on the street and just pick up people, you know, homeless people and say, hey, we'll give you 300 bucks. You want to come in?

You get this thing put in you. And then, you know, a week later, we'll take it out of you and we'll pay, you know, give you 400 bucks all in. So they got the money for the surgery, which is at a cap. Right. And they would just use these people, pay them out, and still make a profit. Right, because they're making $20,000 in surgery. Right, right.

Wow. So that was the whole thing. And these are all desperate, sick people. Oh, yeah. So they're easy marks. Easy. Because they don't give a shit. Easy.

I wish somebody had asked me back then to do it. Because I would have done it. I would have been like, oh, you know. And now, so this is what your movie, that you're trying to encompass all of this through this series of characters. Like the Michael K. Williams character in that movie, obviously not as demonic as the main guy.

Sure. Played by that guy. what's his name grillo frank grillo frank grillo yeah like he seems like a real guy like he seems like one of the guys out here frank's amazing yeah yeah but but like he's the real satan yep right so and and and michael k williams is just a dude who's making a personal compromise knows what's up and he's working the system to make his own money he's a contractor right right for the devil right yeah yeah yeah and then like the poor kid uh val kilmer's kid is that who it is yeah he's good actor yeah he's great he's yeah he gets sucked into it yep but like i thought that the way he played it which was like almost void of any real character or personality in a way.

Right. Just like a naif kind of, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that was intentional in casting. No, I know. Because he's kind of, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And the girl was a little monster. Yeah. But like, again, with, you know, and how you characterize your own experience and then the end of that movie, like, it can't really end in any other way, but it's pretty raw, man, right? I think so. I hope so. Yeah.

What do you mean? How is that not going to be raw? Well, you know. With the guy splitting. That's the one thing that people don't realize is this, you know anytime I don't want to ruin the ending but you know when that shit goes down there's usually more than one person in the room

or in the car absolutely there's always somebody there's always somebody there that's right yeah take the dope no I've been that guy

you know yeah I mean yeah it's rough man you know that kind of decision you know like moving a body outside just you know it's something that

if you're going to choose to do that for know it's something that if you're if you're going to choose to do that for the only if that's your life if that's your life and for a period of time it was mine you're gonna run into that kind of stuff people are gonna go down especially with fentanyl out there now i mean it's you know you would cut you would go out there at the beginning at the beginning i remember the first time i saw somebody go on fentanyl and it was one of the most disturbing things i've ever seen. Yeah. What happened? It, you know.

They don't know it. Well, I've seen people, unfortunately, you know, move on when they're shooting regular dope. Yeah. But with fentanyl, it was like a demon was leaving this person's body. Like he turned into a contortionist and started twisting and writhing. And it was like he was trying to fight for whatever was left in him to stay. And he clenched up and then he just went limp and fell out of a chair. Did he know that was what it was?

Neither of us knew. So it was just in there. It was just in there. Oh my God. You know, and it's- And that's where you had maybe thought for a second yeah maybe i'm not gonna take that hit no i mean honestly you know the sickest part about it is it must be some really good dope right well that's always the case yeah

yeah he did too much or he didn't do it right right yeah if i just half it up i mean that's you know well yeah that was always the thing in new york i remember realizing that yeah anytime there was like uh when it was all the china white in the uh late 80s that when it was around if people started dropping dead all the other junkies are like where are they getting it well that's true i mean and there was a joke in new jersey when i was there where you know junkies would watch the evening news to see because it would say you know today in whatever county or town yeah four overdoses and then the next morning everybody would there be there for the morning shift you you know, to pick up.

That is crazy. So it's free advertising. So you saw, like, you know, you really saw, you were really in the shit and saw that stuff and kind of, it must have, like, whatever you had to process once you, like, got hold of sobriety must have been heavy. Yeah, I think so, but. Were they close friends, any of them, or just people that you knew in the life? I know, I've known a few close friends, but the people i saw were not you know they were just you know running buddies that i you know yeah yeah yeah people you saw at the place where yeah

or you know that guy you know he and i ran around for like three weeks together right and then that happened you know um wow man so did you ever meet larry clark no i never did now he's still alive you know but uh it seems like you gotta meet i talked to him i listened to that yeah yeah i was that was it hard to it was hard to wrangle that one yeah i i was i was there with you you know i was very excited for that one it was a tough one to keep in bounds but um but i'm a i'm a huge fan man yeah i'd love to it's so interesting like guys like that who have the there's so much hustle to them yeah you know so like you know you got you know the real story then you got the hustle and then you got the hustle that they're

pulling on you right right you know like well he's a pro man i mean that's like you know yeah he's the real deal you know uh this life that we're talking about and you know and he's been around a long time i was actually the other day looking uh there was a few photos from Tulsa for sale, and I was, you know. Oh, yeah. I mean, he must have done editions of that. Yeah. Yeah.

I think I've got a reprint of the book. Yeah. I just bought a first edition. You did? Yeah. But, you know, I wanted to buy, my buddy has one of the original prints, and I want one. How much did it go for? Like 20? 20. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How much did it go for? Like $20?

$20, yeah. Which seems reasonable to me. Sure. You know? Yeah. And so I was really thinking about it. I don't know. I got to get a good paying gig, and I'll buy it for myself.

Yeah, man. You got to go meet Larry, too. Yeah, I don't know where he's at. I think he's in Europe or something. Is he? I have no idea. Those guys, they're always taken care of by a strange contingent of uh of money you know and and weirdness you know they're like always like you know i don't know how they get around the world

it's like bukowski you know it's always carrying it's true it's true you know yeah like in europe he'd go to europe and they'd be celebrated right Right. Yeah. Right. Here, I don't know. Same with like Abel Ferrara. Yeah, yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, he's over in Rome right now. They have these patrons,

it seems like. Yeah, someone takes, I wonder if they're institutions or they're individuals or how it works, you know? Man, I wish I knew. Yeah. Well, he might be one of those guys.

He might be like, keep at it. You'll find out. Just like you found guys you might keep at it you'll find out just like you found out about the drug scale to find out about how one lives in europe for a year someone else has died making a slasher movie that's what you're working towards a big payoff yeah things to work towards yeah so what happens now with um you know because you know i certainly i put that movie out there a bit but you have any sense of uh where it went so it's on hbo now though right it's going to be in hbo rotation yeah it'll be you know i i don't really know

what they're going to do with it but i know that's where it's going now how was it now how did that deal work like when, when did that happen? It happened. What's the process as a filmmaker? So you make the movie. Who gave you the money for that movie? That was kind of a hodgepodge of private equity. A few companies chipped in.

It was a really hard movie to get the money for. Yeah. Now, when you say you have experience with people having problems with endings, is that one of those things where, you know, when you're looking for money, and do you show people that script? Yeah, I did. I did. And nobody had a problem with that because anybody I pitched on the script,

I could tell this is my story. Right. And they couldn't believe the whole thing, you know. Right. Then you get to the end, and it's like, well, I guess that's how it's supposed to end. But really the people that had problems with it, which was ironic, were the film festivals,

you know, cause we were actually going to do festivals, you know, before the pandemic hit. But the festivals that we, you know, we're talking to were like, yeah,

but it's just so dark at the end. And it's like, what kind of festival are you running? Yeah. It's like film festival. Right. You know? And,

and so it was, it was ironic because, you know, most of those people have never made a movie themselves. But it's so weird because that, to me, says that some of these festivals, I don't know which ones you're talking to, are so dug in in terms of who they attract that they're playing to a certain audience. Right. Interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a sort of a middle classclass artsy-fartsy audience absolutely yeah yeah yeah that doesn't uh they're they're just trying to keep their support as opposed to most of them uh or at least the american ones have uh have such you know heavy corporate influence that um you know kind of shrouded in independence you know one our big donors is a drug rehab here in town, so we can't really... We're a little concerned about your film because we're getting a lot of money from Hazleton.

And I'm not saying anything bad about Hazleton. It was the only one that came to my head. Been around a long time. I'm sure they're on the level. Yeah. From everything I've heard, they are. They are, yeah. They're the old-timey ones.

Right. Okay, so you make the movie. You pick up a distributor for a bit. Right. And then how does HBO get involved? So typically with a movie like this size, a lot of distributors will want to have a TV partner. So what that means is the distributor will put it out for three to six months, you know, on, you know, Amazon, Apple TV,

all that for rent or buy. And then six months later, they'll, you know, partner with a TV person like HBO Max or a streamer to then, you know, lease it for a period of like 18 months or so. Okay, all right. Yeah. So this is your time.

I guess. On HBO Max. Yeah. Yeah. So this is your time. I guess. On HBO Max. Yeah, yeah. This will be my time. Now, has he found that like we're after that one, how, well, I guess it wasn't really out when he started doing Ida Red. How'd you finance that? Same way?

No, Ida Red, we had two, you know, reputable, well-known companies kind of come in and, you know, wrap their arms wrap their arms because of your work i guess uh also also the cast you know they really like the cast and um and the story i mean it's kind of a like i said it's kind of a throwback homage to you know peck and paw kind of stuff and that stuff usually does well people like yeah yeah and what about um uh candyland Candyland was all, was financed by two people and Jeremy is one of the main people who put up the money for that

because he believes in it so much. That's your manager? Yeah, manager and producer, yeah. The guy who's in my house right now? Yeah, the guy who's in the house. Yeah, he's a fucking, a killer, man. Great dude.

Well, I wish you best of luck with everything. It's great talking to you. I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much. I think we covered it. Hopefully, yeah. Oh, yeah.

No, we got a guy dying on fentanyl. I mean, that's, you know. We dug in, and that's what we found. Well, dude, thank you so much. And you played a big part in my recovery. Oh. Yeah. I mean, early on, attraction, not promotion, but I would listen to your show.

And I remember laying in a detox bed listening to one of the shows and you mentioned to the guy, you're a sober guy, right? Yeah. Me too. And you guys went on this whole thing and it actually really, it helped, you know, because, you know, it may be stupid or whatever, but people like yourself out here doing, you know, what I wanted to do, um, you know, doing, trying, you know, doing this thing, being sober, uh, it, it provided, you know, some, uh, you knew it was possible. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it really, it really, you know, it helped me. So being here means a lot and I appreciate you helping out our film. We, we need it. Yeah. Well, it means a lot to me too, man, because like, you know, kicking the life that you kicked is

that that's, it's, it's a really hard one, and you seem good. And just stay on it. Do what I can, yeah. Yeah, you look great, man. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you. Man, heavy tails. That dope is no good, man.

Hard to come back from the dope, but it's doable. That dope is no good, man. Hard to come back from the dope, but it's doable. John's movie, Body Brokers, is now available to buy or rent on digital and on-demand platforms, or you can watch it on Cinemax starting tomorrow, July 9th. The new film, Ida Red, begins playing on the festival circuit in August. Now let's play some music and get on with it. Get on with it.

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