WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1254 - Liesl Tommy

Episode Date: August 19, 2021

When Liesl Tommy got hired as a first-time feature film director to make the new Aretha Franklin movie Respect, she knew there were 100 reasons why she couldn't screw it up. Marc and Liesl talk about their experience making the film together and Liesl explains how she's no stranger to uphill battles. From growing up under apartheid in South Africa to being an outsider as an immigrant in America to making her way around the world as a theater director, Liesl's path to Respect is anything but a traditional Hollywood story. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

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We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how's it going are you guys all right holy shit man today on the show i talked to uh liesl tommy she's the director of the movie respect which i was in it's her

first feature film but she has a lot of experience directing for the stage all over the world i might add it was a pleasure to work with her she's's a smart, intense person. It was great to talk to her. And you will be able to enjoy that shortly. I let some people in on Instagram Live to a band rehearsal. As you know, I am going to be playing music and hosting a comedy show at Largo on the 26th of this month. And I've put together, with Flanagan's help, the guy who books Largo, the 26th of this month and I've put together with Flanagan's help the guy who books Largo a little combo it's me and a guy named Brandon Schwartzel on bass a guy named Ned Brower on drums and I've selected these songs I think some of them for reasons some of them

not necessarily for reasons just because i like them but it's an odd collection of songs i think we're doing six songs and i might do the song i wrote for lynn at the end just solo but uh you know it's coming together and it looks like jimmy vivino the dude who plays uh who's taught me a lot of licks who's one of my primary guitar teachers really over the last couple of decades uh who was Conan O'Brien's band leader. He might sit in on a couple, which is very exciting. He's actually going to come to rehearsal next week. But why am I doing this?

What am I trying to tell you here? I'll tell you why, because I can. So it is a bucket list situation, but I've been playing guitar for a long time and i think the hopes on behalf of the establishment flanagan over at largo's that it goes well we make it a monthly show i pick a few other songs we get a few other comics laurie kill martin's gonna do it and uh fahim anwar are gonna be there so it'll be a couple of songs and i don't know man you know i got a lot to make up for you know there's a lot to make up for in terms of my tremendous lack of confidence or discipline around guitar playing. I've become something of a, you know, unique guitar player for me.

I can handle it. And we're doing good songs. They're a good band. But I've had to figure out what guitar and amp. I'm no pro. I just like to plug in. I'm not a nerd. I don't know.

I don't have a pedal board that I can lock into i don't i'm not that deep i just want the tone that comes out of the amp when i plug the guitar in so i'm settling on something but i guess this is what i wanted to talk about primarily is that years ago when i did some work for Gibson through Brendan Small, I was paid in a Les Paul custom. That's a black Les Paul with gold hardware. And you don't see them around a lot, people playing them. I don't know if they're out of style. It's sort of a rock guitar. I don't know.

But it's really a top-notch electric guitar. Classic. And when I was in high school, my buddy Dave Bishop played one. You know, I had my copycat Gibson, then I had a Telecaster, but Dave really knew how to play, even when we were in high school. He was a little older than me, and he just really knew how to fucking rock out. He was sort of a prodigy, and he had this beautiful black custom, Les Paul, that I just thought was just,

I would never be as good or good enough to play that. I still find, I kind of feel that way, but because of some of the sound limitations at Largo in that you can't play a single coil pickup without getting a extreme amount of buzz. That means I can't play the guitars that I'm used to and that I love. So I had to pull the custom out to see if it would work. And I brought it to rehearsal the other day with the headstrong deluxe amp straight in with just a boost pedal. And it was revelatory. It's the perfect guitar. And I got that as a homage, as a tribute, as a reminder, as a nostalgia stop that I can take out of its case to remind me of my old buddy Dave Bishop who passed away so there's sort of like I'm honoring that I'm honoring Dave by playing this guitar because that's why I got

it in the first place and it just feels right so it's kind of loaded up that way the performance right but it's loaded up in other ways too because of the song selections and maybe I've talked about it but but things are just coming along you know Making songs your own is where it's always been at for me because I never had the discipline to mimic anybody effective. I want to bring this up real quick. I want to mention that I've added more dates to my tour. Wednesday, September 22nd, 8 p.m. at the Neptune in Seattle. That's happening.

Friday, September 24th at 7 p.m. at the Aladdin Theater in Portland. That's happening. Friday, September 24th at 7 p.m. at the Aladdin Theater in Portland. That's happening. And the presale for my show at Town Hall in New York City is going on right now. Go to nycomedyfestival.com and use the presale code NYCF. The show is Friday, November 13th at 7 p.m. All that is happening. So some of the songs i'm doing have direct memories attached to them we're doing a version of the stroll by the diamonds which was a song my dad hit me to it's got kind of a greasy strippery rock vibe with a kind of like droney sax that we're going to replace with a guitar lick because jimmy's going to play on that one yeah we're going to do uh um i walk with jesus by spaceman do I Walk With Jesus by Spaceman 3

because I was turned on to Spaceman 3 by Jay Dobis. I was way high, and he just kept saying, like, you know, Jonathan Richman's my good friend, and he turned me on to Spaceman 3 and some other psychedelic stuff. But that song just kills me. It's two chords. It's genius. I love it.

We're doing What Goes On by Lou Reed in the Velvet Underground because Lou Reed, Live in 69, was a transitional album for me. It was a revelatory album for me. I've used that revelatory. I'm using revelatory, ubiquitous a lot lately. Those two things. maybe understand music in a whole different way. So that's where we get what goes on. We're going to try to do, I think we're going to do ISIS by Bob Dylan, which I think I can make my own. It's hard not to phrase it like Bob,

but I just love that story. I'm not even sure what it's about, but it feels like it's about a relationship that I understand. And then we're going to do Broke Down Palace by the Grateful Dead because that's one of the prettiest songs ever fucking written. And if I can going to do Broke Down Palace by the Grateful Dead because that's one of the prettiest songs ever fucking written. And if I can just remember the goddamn chords, it might work out okay. And I'm singing all these things and I'm putting myself out there because I have

to erase a bad memory. I have a bad memory to erase. And I think I've talked to you about this before. Some of you may not know because you're new here or maybe you don't listen to me but it's real it's real so the in an effort this performance at largo with my band i think we'll call them the three chords all the songs have two only two or three chords except for broke down palace which has a fucking mess of chords that are weird changes they're not hard chords but if i don't remember it and i fuck it up uh it will go against what I'm trying to do here. What I'm trying to accomplish, as I've talked to you about before, is a memory. It's a memory. It's trauma. From Lighthouse Arts and Music Camp, where it was the final performance by all the people doing the performances for the big show at the end of the camp.

I put together this little band. All we had to do was get through johnny be good but of course i put together not being like i'm just a sloppy player you know i was even then and uh somehow or another i managed to get all the dudes who you know right on fucking right on on cue as soon as we had to fucking perform in the band shell for the entire camp. A couple of them got stoned. A couple of them got drunk. We're fucking 14, 15 years old, and none of them can play, but they were all giggling. I fucking get up there.

I couldn't even fucking make it through Johnny B. Goode. I couldn't find the key. The entire thing was a fucking disaster because those are the guys that i hung around with and the other band that was representing uh rock music at the camp was a bunch of music nerds i don't remember their names anymore but we we fucking bungled johnny be good and you know i felt like killing myself the rest of the idiots were just laughing and giggling and whatever. And then the other band got up there, and in my memory, played an entire Genesis album perfectly.

So now the deal with Largo is I can own who I am, I can own the way I play guitar, and I'm just going to do it to feel it and, uh, and, and entertain, perform, play music publicly, share. And if I die, this is going to be it. So it's a lot hanging on it. See, I'm already pressuring myself, but I know myself well enough just from all these years that if I don't feel good about what's happening, I can stop in the middle of a song.

I give zero fucks. I don't fucking care. I'll be like, we're starting this over. I'll get a laugh. I'll make it weird, and we'll fucking get back on track. I'm going to make this fucking work. This is a fucking, an exercise

in reversing the effects of the trauma of massive embarrassment yeah that's what's happening it's a big night so Liesl Tommy is the director of respect and we talked really the I think the day after the premiere. It's in theaters now. She's an amazing director, very smart, and I enjoy talking to her. So this is that. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that.

Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. You know, the guy, the prop guy, set me up with a guitar in my hotel room,

and that guitar got lost somewhere. He told me it got stolen or lost. Do you know about it? I don't know about it. I did not hear that story. Well, I don't think it was a big story because I don't think a lot of them were very expensive guitars. They looked a period, but they weren't like custom shop guitars. But it somehow disappeared between my room and wherever.

I don't know what happened to it. It was upsetting. Very upsetting. Am I looking at one of them right now no I wouldn't have taken it I wouldn't have taken that one no I'm sure you wouldn't so last night was very exciting I thought did you yeah it was pretty cool I mean I was one of the journalists on the on the carpet yeah me how do you feel right now and I said I think i'm incandescent with happiness yeah and he just was like what and i'm like i'm sure people don't really say that but this has been such a grueling and and you know scary process because covid stuck itself into the middle of it yeah i know well at least in the release right yeah? Yeah. I mean, well, no, because we wrapped last year in the end of February. And then I had a week off.

And then I dove into the edit in New York City. And we were editing. And we were in the edit bay for maybe seven days. And then we got shut down because of COVID. Oh, my God. And it was such a massive editing job. And I basically, we all had to retreat to our apartments. And I was in my apartment in Harlem listening to sirens 24 hours a day, editing the film alone.

It was so brutal in New York at the beginning. I mean, it was just like devastating. It was devastating. I mean, you know, I had a lot of friends in the Broadway community. People got sick. People died. Yeah. You know, we really did not know what was happening.

And concentrating on work was like an act of just epic will. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we were just, I was talking to writers, you know, friends, and they were like, we have no bandwidth. We can't focus on anything. All we want to do is check the news. Oh, I know. Yeah. I mean, I talked to creative people that were sort of like, should I be working yet?

I mean, I talked to creative people that were sort of like, should I be working yet? I mean, like, well, after people realized that we were in it for a while, there was this feeling like, well, I should be using this time. Yes. But a few people did. And then you resented people who said they were using it. Like, you know, it's like, who the fuck is this person? I know. What skill do they have that I don't have that they can actually focus? Be inspired and motivated during this plague.

No, man. I mean, it was just, I don't think we've never experienced during this plague? No, man. I mean, it was just, I don't, we've never experienced that kind of. No, of course not. You know, but what I kept thinking about is people who live in Syria or Yemen. Yeah. People who are living, you know, harrowing war-torn lives daily for years. Or just like, you know. How do you keep your nervous system together?

Broken structure, lack of resources. Oh resources oh yeah i don't know but people do adapt you know yes i mean it's amazing what we adapt for better and worse yeah you know some people become completely delusional and just commit to a fucking fiction as a way of life and other people try to deal for real yeah yeah so you know that was 2020 was just you was just editing a music movie without being able to feel the vibe with a group of people in a room. Oh, right. So you could just pass around these cuts to individuals, so there was no real way to screen. Well, what the hell? I mean, what's the movie at now, time-wise?

225. 225. So I imagine at the beginning when you wanted to start testing things out what was it like 9 9 hours

okay so the assemblage the first cut of the you know the editors was like 5 and a half hours and my favorite moment in the early process did you have a place

for the intermission was there there was a dinner break yeah I showed the movie to Tracy the writer yeah when it was like i just wanted

her to see the whole thing because i knew i was gonna have to get in there and cut the words right you know so this is the whole thing as five and a half hours just like purely as written right and she was just like so happy she was just beaming and she didn't take her eyes off the screen for five and a half hours yeah and then i showed her, I managed to get it down to three hours and 15 minutes. She watched it kind of stone-faced. And then she said to me, I feel like the five and a half hour version flowed better. No kidding. I was like, God, I love writers.

Yeah. You know? Oh, sure. Of course, she loves it now, but it's just she was willing she was painful to release it at five Yeah, people people adapt You know angels in America was your part, you know, yeah, I was like, yes, this is true We could really release half now and release the other half in six months But you know, that's why I love her so much. She's so passionate. She's you know, yeah

Well, I mean, I I can't imagine like you must have been difficult why I love her so much. She's so passionate. She's, you know. Yeah. Well, I mean, I can't imagine. Like, it must have been difficult. I mean, I don't know what the choices were. I guess I could ask you because I didn't know who you were coming into it. I'm not even sure. How did you find me? Because someone decided I was the guy, right? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I saw glow. I thought you were awesome in that. Oh, thanks. I love. I just, you know, I have a style of acting that I respond glow. I thought you were awesome in that. Oh, thanks. I love, I just, you know, I have a style of acting that I respond to. And it's like, I don't want people to think they're watching actors act. I want people to feel like they're watching people live their lives. And you have that.

It's super organic. It's real. It's direct. You know, it's bullshit. And that's what I responded to. Well, I thought I did pretty well. I watched it. You did great.

What are you talking about? Yeah. I mean, the fact that you could actually like watch yourself and like it, I thought I did pretty well. I watched it. You did great. What are you talking about? Yeah, I mean, the fact that you could actually watch yourself and like it, that always tells you. Right. I mean, I've grown. That's gotten easier for me. Yeah. And Forrest Whitaker, Jesus.

Yeah. Because, well, that's, we can stay on the story of respect for a while, is that, because you know, I talked to Davidid ritz and i talked to who wrote the the was it an autobiography with her or did he do a biography he did two he did one authorized and one yeah okay so i talked to him about jerry because he did jerry's too and then i interviewed him about stuff and um and i know that he wasn't really involved in this one but there there is this notion about her life and mysteries about her life

that have not really come to light or come to pass, and they had to be worked around for you to get permission to do this story. So what it was, where did this journey to do her story begin, and why you? Good question, because it was my first movie. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you were a Broadway director, really, right? Theater director, and I did television for a couple of years.

Okay. I always wanted to make movies. Yeah, yeah, sure, of course. And there was a period where I was like, I think I've had a show on Broadway that did extremely well, and I did this big thing for Disney, this adaptation of Frozen. And I was like, I think I've directed my bucket list in theater. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I moved into TV, but I got this. I was actually directing The Walking Dead in Atlanta

when I was told that the studio and Scott Bernstein, the creative producer, was going to call me about this movie. Walking Dead, huh? Yeah. I love zombies. I do. I'm a total genre geek. Well, I mean

well I mean that's a pretty theatrical undertaking it is you gotta get gotta get a bunch of zombies going for the crowd scenes

gotta stage them like it's like Shakespeare when everybody's on stage at the end of the final part of the play

right or like the end of a musical that's right exactly so oh wow so how many of those did you direct

I only directed one but I plan on directing a full zombie movie in the future so it was good practice really that's the next one it wouldn't that be funny like it's a horror movie that's my next a full zombie maybe you should make it a musical zombie biopic um yeah so uh so they you know i was in the hotel in atlanta during prep for this episode and uh they said they were going to call me and i knew that it was as bad a big a long shot as it could get for me to be to bag this film having not but did you know you were in the running all i knew is that they were someone had given them their name and they were calling your name my name yeah they were calling me yeah and it was just a chat

it was just like a general chat right you know i just knew i couldn't afford a general chat so i had like a whole pitch planned um i said it should start in the church it should end in the church i had a tagline yeah i said the songs i talked about the style yeah talk you know i said it's childhood in her 20s i don't personally like birth to death biopics. Yeah. I feel like it just, everything feels rushed. Yeah. Everything's like you cram and stuff in.

Then you got to make makeup decisions. It's just like, I just wanted to really feel like we were in there with her. Yeah. And it would just be a specific time period to get to know how she became. And you were thinking in terms of story, too. Absolutely. There's an arc within the whole life or several. So you're like, well, here's the arc.

Yes. That makes the most sense. That's right. I mean, I'm always thinking this comes from, you know, being a dramaturgical director. Right. What is the beginning, middle and end of any story? Yeah. What's the central conflict?

Right. Yeah. So what I pitched them was that this should be a movie about a woman with the greatest voice on earth who did not know what her voice was yeah yeah that's and that's pretty smart how'd you figure that out what were they thinking they had no ideas um to be brutally honest yeah they actually got confused because after i did the pitch they were like wow that's pretty great. And then they said, do you talk like a director?

Are you a director? And I was like, dudes, I am a fucking director. And they were like, oh, you don't want to write it? No, I'm a director. We should hire a professional writer to write it. And then they were like, oh, sorry, sorry. We just got confused. You know, they're like, we'll get back to you.

And we all kind of fled the call. And I was like, motherfucker. How's that get? Where was the drop in communication? Where was the miscommunication? Who told them I was a writer? Exactly. So then, but they actually came back two weeks later.

And they were like, we really like that take. We want to, we were going to start with a writer, but we're going to bring you on and we're going to make that movie. Oh, wow. So it was like that. So you got to choose Tracy? Yeah.

Huh. And what was your relationship? What's her last name again? Tracy Scott Wilson. What's her history with you? So we did a play together in like, I don't even know what year,

2005. Yeah. You know, we were baby theater people. Uh-huh. She wrote this play called The Good Negro about the civil rights movement. And I directed it. I don't even know what year, 2005. Yeah. We were baby theater people. She wrote this play called The Good Negro about the civil rights movement. Yeah. And I directed it.

We developed it for like four years together. Yeah. And we did it together. And you kind of go through fire when you work with somebody that long. And I just knew she was the person. I knew that I had a shorthand with her and that, you know, the ideas that I had for the film. I mean, there were certain scenes that just came to me that I knew had to be in the film. Like, I had this vision of that scene with her and her mom. At the piano or at the end?

The end. Uh-huh. And I just was like, this is- A vision of the vision? Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah.

You know, I was just kind of like, we called it the dark night of the soul. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I was just kind of like, we called it the dark night of the soul. I just knew what it would be and that it should, and I knew that I could trust Tracy to hear those crazy visions and make them work. Well, I thought that you staged that really well. I thought that by that time, you didn't really know, unless you really knew the story of Aretha, where this was going. But I thought you handled that well. I thought Jennifer did a really good job with that.

Because, you know, you really are. I was talking to somebody today. When you do a biopic of any kind, you're really encapsulating a myth of a person. You know, in these stories sort of you have to choose which stories that many people may know. How do you capture those? And you're all in service of this, of feeding the idea that you want to get across about this woman.

There's no, like, you can't waste any time. That's right. That's right. I mean, people are like, well, what about this? Or what about, you know, C.L. grew up in, you know, and we have to focus on Aretha,

and I've got the spine of the story, and every scene has to further that story. When I watched it again last night, you know, I really realized the kind of weight that Forrest, the burden he had to sort of be the anchor of darkness for the whole movie. Like, you know, whatever the reality of her story is, it's deeper and darker than is revealed here. And it revolves around him. So you had to sort of, you know, he was a very hard character to empathize with and a very hard character to respect in some ways because he was. But but, you know, he made some decisions about how he's going to play that guy, where whatever was going on inside of that dude you could see it and feel it that's right i mean that's the thing that that i i am attracted to

and with with certain actors forest is definitely one of them you're one of them everybody on that in that film yeah whereas no matter good guy bad guy who cares yeah you are fascinated by what's going on inside of them yeah you know there, I just never get tired of looking at Forrest Whitaker think. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. It was crazy. You know, it's so complex. Yeah.

And, you know, he's just, he is, he's gifted. Yeah. He has an emotional complexity that is so inspiring to work with. Yeah. And that, and for that guy. Yeah. It was kind of great. Yeah.

And I mean, you know, it's the same. That character was never going to be an easy character, and it would have been, in the wrong hands, would have just tilted into just one-dimensional bad guy. Yeah, right. But there were some scenes, like, you know, where he is somewhat redeemed at the end, and also, but, like, the thing I didn't,

like, because I only saw it, this is the second time I saw it on the big screen, was that, you know, when he and Aretha are both sitting there drinking after Martin Luther King dies, and you start to realize, like, oh, see? Like, you know, they're both sitting there drinking almost the same drink. Exactly. You know, like, I didn't really sort of notice that stuff,

that the demon in her was him. Well, I mean, that's right. You know? We all have baggage, you and and and that that's part of the journey of the film and also like the weird kind of like when i read about jerry it was the same thing there was these people in that business at that time you know like parenting was certainly the secondary i mean there's just and you sort of have to encapsulate that very quickly where you know basically you know the grandmother just takes the kids.

And I think that's what usually happened. Here you go. Here's another one. Yeah. No, I mean, it's just somebody has to take care of them. Yeah. Somebody has to take care of them. And, you know, there was certainly no infrastructure for women to have.

It's still that way to have their own career. So, you know, it's not like the your husband in the 50s and 60s was going to decide to be the parent no yeah i mean like i read stuff about jerry like that family situation was kind of turned out very sad um but okay so you guys kind of set out to do this what was the relationship with the franklin estate in terms of what you could and couldn't do. How was that dictated? There was really nothing that they said I could or couldn't do. And the truth is they were busy with their own, you know, after she died, there was a lot of stuff they had to sort out legally themselves around her estate. So Tracy and I just did our thing.

You know, and the executor um her niece you know she came on to set and and brenda also one of the backup singers and you know and a cousin yeah came on to set and they were awesome yeah and i gotta say maybe because you know they when they met with us they saw tracy and i black women we were not about to fuck up Aretha Franklin's legacy. And they they really trusted us, you know, and and we were very I, you know, I was like, if I'm on this, I need to I need to have artistic freedom. And there was no line. that we don't even need to talk about here, that were sort of danced around and suggested that would have been, would have probably thrown a wrench in the movie, right? Around her children and where they came from.

Well, I mean, I took my lead on that from, she said different things at different times in her life about that. About where they came from? Yeah, about who the fathers were. Oh, yeah. And I was like, that's actually fascinating. It's part of the story.

And so that's, you know, I'm going to go with that. And you just did it in two ways. You know, you did the, when she was the kid. And then you did Mary J's character going like, when are we going to find out? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's like, I'm not, it's not, I don't have genetic tests. I don't know yeah and you know it's like i'm not it's not i don't have genetic tests i don't know who sure you know and so i gotta go with the fact that she chose to um be mysterious about that yeah and and and when and how was it how did it all come together with jennifer like i

i mean she was the one who was supposed to do it by aretha per aretha's request who who found that how did that all come together? So here's something fascinating. You know, Jen and I were reunited at Martha's Vineyard last week for the African American Film Festival. We had a screening there and we were just hanging out talking and we realized that we were

Broadway neighbors together in 2016. I had my show eclipsed on Broadway and next door she was doing Color Purple. Oh, really? Yeah. We used to call it Black Way because that was you know because i think like hamilton was running at the same time and forest was doing huey i think at the same time we were all it was like this crazy we called it like the you know broadway block but we were neighbors and that was when aretha

franklin asked her to be to play her in the film whatever the film might be like I don't know what it's gonna be you're gonna play me in the film right and you know we were just talking about how that that was 2016 and um we didn't even you know we had no idea that we would be doing this together then who made the decision to make this movie I mean like I mean where did it come from? Well, Scott Bernstein and Harvey Mason Jr. had worked together on Straight Outta Compton. Okay.

Producers? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Harvey was her music producer for a while. Oh, okay. And so they put it together. Right. And she was like, yeah, let's do this.

And then, you know, there's some interview where somebody got a little like spicy with her about like how well is this movie taking so long and she and she was like have you do you know anything about contracts and she's not wrong i mean you know every song is is is owned by a different entity uh you know so know, so it just, it's a long process. Oh, the different labels? Yeah. And she didn't have ownership of some of them? And individuals, and yeah, I mean, like Ted White had, you know, her ex, Ted White had, you know, control over some of them.

Oh, really? It was, you know. So he did all right for himself for life? He did. Out of a few songs? Is he still alive? No, he passed. Oh, yeah?

Last year, actually. No kidding? Yeah. Wow. And how many kids are there? There, actually. No kidding. Yeah. Wow. And how many kids are there? There are four sons. Okay. And they're around?

Yeah, they are. Yeah. They all came. Some of them were there last night. Oh, really? How did they feel about it? They love it. They do?

Yeah. I mean, we had a screening for them in Detroit. Jen and I stopped off in Detroit for a couple of days this past week. Uh-huh. And we had a screening for them, and it was very emotional. Well, one thing that I can tell is people are still grieving her loss. Oh, yeah? You know, it's very alive.

Yeah. And just to hear those songs done like that. Yeah. And to see that story. I mean, what are the reviews like? I don't know. You don't know? You haven't seen any of them?

No, I haven't. I mean. I don't know if they're out yet there were a few that were out last night and and my friend jenny yeah um or like my producing partner yeah she read some some things to me and there's some great things yeah right now yeah oh good but i mean i just feel like let me get the movie out first before i dive in yeah no i'm not gonna you know what i mean yeah it's just i just uh scan them for my name type it in a search mark Marin respect two sentences Marin is Wexler did a fine convincing job that's a good review it's like that was a rave we're hit yeah I did it. So where, like, how did this all, where did you evolve from?

Do you know, like, in terms of, so you were a theater director, but where do you, I know you come from South Africa. Like, really come from there? Yeah, I was born and raised in South Africa, in Cape Town, South Africa. I can't even, I have no idea what that's like. Yeah. Yeah. So in South Africa, you know, during apartheid, as you Americans say, we say apartheid. Yeah.

It was, you know, systemic racism legally. Right. You know, in the Constitution. Yeah. So I grew up in what's called a colored township. And colored is what they called mixed race. Huh. Oh, there was a difference between black, colored, and white?

So what they did is they created townships for Indian people, townships for colored people, and then black people, but then they even went further and separated them by tribe. So that was just everybody was separated, and it was a way to control. But fenced in or just block-to-block kind of stuff? Block-to-block, and then they created what we call call them homelands but they are the equivalent of reservations okay so totally separate totally separate yeah wow i know i had no idea i should know that i guess i don't know

well it's you know um it's so specific and the colored community the community i'm from you know unlike mixed race when people think about it here it's my parents were mixed their parents were mixed their parents were mixed like mixing started very early on wow um yeah so the dutch uh brought in slaves from indonesia and malaysia so it's you know the mixture of european um asian so have you do you do you know the breakdown? My breakdown? No, I mean, it's black. It's black African.

It's Indian. It's indigenous. Kweisan. It's, you know, it's all in there. But it's very different than whatever mixed would be here. Yes, it is. Yeah. It is different.

Yeah, because it's generations of it. Generations, and it depends on the history of the country. It's a totally. It is different. Yeah, because it's generations of it. Generations, and it depends on the history of the country. It's a totally different place. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so that was my childhood. We grew up in a place called Factoryton, which is a pretty – it was called Factoryton because everybody worked in factories. Is this how your dad worked in a factory? No, my dad was a high school teacher.

Oh. because everybody worked in factories. Is this how your dad worked in a factory? No, my dad was a high school teacher. Oh. And, you know, he was a very political person and he worked at a high school that was known for its student activists. Oh, and your mom?

And my mom worked, she left school very early and she went, you know, the women in her family had to leave school like before the seventh grade for the most part. Yeah. Because, so that the brothers could get an education.

Really? Yeah, it's pretty normal. So there was no room? Oh, so they had to take up whatever work in the family? Work and contribute. Oh, I get it. Yeah. Huh.

But she's an incredible woman. And she basically, when she retired, she was like a controller for a huge engineering firm. She was just somebody who started off as a secretary, became a bookkeeper, became an accountant, became, you know, she just very savvy. And then she also, when they went back to South Africa. They went back? Yeah. So we immigrated to the States when I was 15. Yeah, so we immigrated to the States when I was 15. So by having a father who was, you know, in tune with the revolution or the possibilities of that type of progress, that kind of freed your mind?

Yeah. Informed your... Oh, yeah. Listen, my dad gave me the Communist Manifesto to read when I was 11. So, you know, I don't know if you know any Marxists, but being well read is extremely important. Being able to defend an argument is extremely important. So like as a kid at dinner, you're like, well, I feel like, and there was no, there's no feeling like, what is the evidence based on that? You know, on the statement. Oh yeah. It was intense. So genuine critical thinking. Genuine critical thinking at the dinner table.

That's great. No nonsense. No meandering. You have to have clear thoughts. And you would get really reprimanded if you couldn't defend your position. So you got to really choose to speak about whatever it is. Whatever it is. If you have a position.

That's correct. I imagine some things. There was a little leniency around preferences of food and whatnot. Yes, that was acceptable. But, you know, the thing is when you grow up in a country that's undergoing struggle and revolution, this kind of thing is not a joke. It's not theoretical. You know, I was really raised to one day run a country. That was the expectation, that you would grow up and participate in a political system and creating a civil society.

Well, it's interesting because in America, which is supposedly an advanced country, the actual relationship between the civic structure and people is very vague to most people. They don't have any idea of what government's supposed to do or what it was built to do. Either they know that they hate it for these like weird ideological reasons or they believe that it could be better and service the people more. But it must have been much different to grow up in a place that was legally segregated in so many ways. And it was very clear every day who was free and who wasn't to do certain things. That's absolutely correct. And we all have a story of in our childhood when we realized that we were not free. Yeah.

My cousins and I sometimes still tear up when we talk about it. Somebody was five when they realized that they couldn't go into that store or something. It's really- it's like- What was yours? Visceral. It was, my cousin and I were going to see a movie. Yeah. Because I loved going to the movies.

Yeah. And my uncle picked us up and they were having tea at another uncle. And so we were in a town, like a little city that we weren't usually in. And they were going to drop us off to go to the movies with my cousin and then pick us up afterwards. And we went in, went to buy the ticket, and there was like a 15-year-old white girl. And she said, oh, I'm sorry, whites only.

And we just all stood looking at each other. And I will never forget this because it's just like so typical of like how it is to be black person on the receiving end of that. And I went and she just had this look of like confusion and like just and I went, oh, sorry. No, no, no. Okay. So sorry. So sorry.

And I like apologize to her for trying to buy a ticket from an establishment I didn't belong in. And I turned my cousin and I away and we were like, you know, eight. in and I turned my cousin and I away and we were like you know eight and we went to the car and I said um uh uncle Edgar they're not gonna let us in and he said why and I said it's whites only and they just my uncle and my aunt just their faces just fell and I could see they were then reprimanding themselves for not figuring that out and exposing us to being it was just like this cycle of horror right well yeah because the first response is that you know you've done something right yeah as opposed to like this is fucked up exactly yeah who the fuck are you and yeah and her weird kind of like self-consciousness totally the the cashier right because you know the thing is when with

those kinds of of the whites only coloreds, blacks only thing was so clear that white people were never actually exposed to having to say, sorry, this is whites only. Right. So she was just completely thrown that she actually had to say that out loud. Right. Wow. And it probably, I don't know, I wonder if it had any effect on her. Who knows? How long?

But that system was in place so long. It was in place so long. It was in place so long. I mean, we left in the 80s during the state of emergency. For safety? Yeah. It was time to leave. And my dad had gone to MIT on a Fulbright and studied urban planning in the 70s. So he had contacts in Boston, that place of racial harmony. And we ended up leaving South Africa.

The most segregated city in the country. Correct. Yeah. So I went to school there. And you know, when you go back there, and I started doing comedy there, you're like, wow. This place really hides their black people. I mean, and it's like, it's not like New York that has black neighborhoods,

but everybody's sort of around. Like in Boston, they're not even around. No and it's like, it's not like New York that has black neighborhoods, but everybody's sort of around. Like in Boston, like they're not even around. No, it is like those, in terms of like urban planning. Yeah. It is very clear where it was then at least. Yeah, West Roxbury and Columbia Point. And so we immigrated then and I went to high school in a place called Newton, Massachusetts, which was a very-

Sure, Newton, yeah. It was actually Roxbury was the black part. West Roxbury was Jews. Correct. Yeah, I went to school there, too. So you went to, when did you guys move there? 85. Okay, and you were how old?

15. So Newton, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah. It was very nice. So what happened was my dad asked his people what where was the best public school and they said newton and he said okay well can you help us find a place in newton and they did and then we got there and we were like it's all white people

like it was all wealthy white people yeah and i was one of the few you know black kids in the school um it was really They must have been so thrilled to have allowed you to go there in Newton. All the nice Jews and Catholics were like, we finally have one. They were like a handful of us, like on one hand. And then they also had this program

called the METCO program where they bused kids from Dorchester, Roxbury, you know, Mattapan, into the school. And these kids were like traveling for an hour or more, getting up at five o'clock in the morning. Just to go to school with white people. What a gift. What a gift.

And, you know, I'll never forget that first day. I was like, lunchtime, I looked around at all these white kids and there was a table of black kids. And I just went to go sit there. And they were like, who the fuck are you? I was like, my name is Liesl. I'm here from South Africa. Yeah. And they were like, first of all, you don't look African.

Oh, wow. So you're getting it from all sides. And they were like, you don't sound African. I was like, well, I'm sitting my ass down at this table. Sort yourselves out. Yeah, I don't know that I really was able to thoroughly, it was fairly recent for me. It was probably with Ta-Nehisi Coates' book

around understanding that self-consciousness of the black body or being in a black body at all times even with black people at some point so like in in that in generated some an ability for me to have at least some understanding or attempted empathy around that just the daily discomfort and self-consciousness. I can't, it's insane. It is insane. It is insane, you know, because you could never go a day without having to think about it. Yeah. And when did you start engaging with the idea of performance and acting and theater?

Was that in Newton? Yeah, it was. You know, I was, it was really rough. I just felt so alienated. No one knew what apartheid was. No one knew where South Africa was. They thought, you know, that was a region, not the name of a country. You know, and people were dying.

I left, you know, a culture where we were talking about politics and making a better life every day. And then all of a sudden, welcome to dum-dum land. Well, it was just,. Well, it was rough. And then a teacher asked me if I wanted to do a play for Black History Month called For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow Is Enough. And I was like, yeah. And, you know, she was like going up to the five black kids. Yeah, yeah. We need you. Time to step up.

Exactly. And I loved it. It was so wonderful. I just absolutely loved it. The acting? The acting, the interacting with literature. Yeah. You know, like just spending time with language like that and just all of it.

And also, you know, finding a community of people who love to read, you know, who love to talk about the stuff that you have to talk about when you work on a play. And I just, I loved it. And then I did a deep dive and started reading all this other black American literature plays and so on. Like what at first moved you the most? I started reading August Wilson. Yeah? The plays? Yeah, the plays.

And then I started reading poetry like Langston Hughes and Maya Angelou. I didn't know some of these black American writers. I mostly knew African writers. And I was just so moved by this literature. That's interesting. It must have been sort of with the promise of America on the minds of many of those black writers and the promise broken must have been very different than the sort of prolonged acceptance of segregation in South Africa. The language of freedom must have been totally different. Listen, the colonial struggle is very different than, you know, the freed slave struggle.

That's correct. Hmm. Yeah. The freed slave struggle. That's correct. Yeah. The legacy, just the relationship towards bondage in this country versus the bondage of a colonial nation is just different. It's very nuanced, but it's different. Yeah.

Again, this is something in the last decade that I sort of was really made aware of through art on some trip to London, I think, at a museum. Because in Europe, I mean, that is the racism they address. It's post-colonialism. Yes, exactly. And that language isn't even here. You know, we're just fully trying to educate ourselves on what we have here, which is an indentured servitude, slavery-based racism. So the whole colonial racism, I was like, wow, this is a a indentured servitude slavery based racism so the whole colonial racism i was like wow there's a whole other trip man and it's most everywhere else in the world

correct other than here that's correct yeah no it's exactly and so you know just just being able to kind of immerse myself in in in literature and culture and art, I started to feel like a human being again. I started to feel like a person that had purpose. What was the experience of what was being offered to you and was, I imagine, very real freedom here? Right. That's the real thing is, you know, I think I signed up for every single extracurricular activity

that the school provided because I was so overwhelmed with choice. Yeah, I bet. You know, and that no one was telling me you can't be in this club. Right, right. You might have got some townie stink guy in places, right? But townie stink guy is different than a law. That's correct. Oh, man, is that true?

So true. Yeah, no, I mean, I felt like I was in Disneyland. Once I kind of found my way, I was like vice president of my class. I was in Model UN. I was in the dance club. I was just like, you know, I had terrible grades because I was so busy. Right. Busy being free.

Right, right. But with the interests that were sort of built in you from your father and from just having a mind that was progressive, it must have been just amazing to fill it. That's exactly right. And I do have like a voracious curiosity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love people in every one of those clubs.

You get to meet new kids and talk to them. Yeah. You know, and I just, you know, I had friends in every corner of the school. Right. Which was better than like the sad shut in that I was in the beginning. You know, my mom, God bless her, would take me to the movies because I had no friends. You know what I mean? Oh, wow. It was just like that was how how it goes a sad kid life yeah but it changed yeah and theater helped me change that yeah theater did it changed

freed you saved your life literally saved you were with the weirdos i wasn't even with the weirdos i was alone and then i was with the weirdos. Yeah, right. Finally, the weirdos. Saved by the weirdos. Totally. Theater kids are always saved by the weirdos. It's like the greatest. I've talked to a lot of them. So you just pursued it.

And you didn't go back to South Africa, or you did? No. So when I was in grad school in Rhode Island, my Mandela was freed. Come back to us. My Mandela was freed. Yeah. My parent, my, you know, Mandela was freed. Come back to us in my, yeah. My Mandela was freed.

Yeah. And they, you know, they needed qualified black people to come back. And they asked my dad. He was an urban planner. What was the family experience around Mandela being freed? I mean, it was euphoric. It was, we didn't actually think it could happen in our lifetime. We were always so afraid that he would die in prison.

Yeah. It was, you know, like it was this terrifying, terrifying yeah it was you know like it was those i can't terrifying terrifying prospect that you know what would happen um if he died yeah you know that scene in the movie where he where forest would occur says to her after ml kdass who's gonna lead us now right that was something that felt we lived with all the time yeah you know yeah and so when he was freed it was just like it was it like, it was, it was just crazy. It was, it was, it was like a religious experience, you know? And then they asked my, my dad to come back. Were you crying at home?

Oh my God. No, no. We were. And then he came through Boston to like that, that hat shell. Yeah. Um, and we went, you know, to listen to him speak and it was just like, it was insane. I can't imagine. It was insane.

Yeah. Um, and as my dad said, when he heard him speak the first time when he came out and he spoke at the parade in Cape Town, he said, his politics remains uncompromised, which was great.

Did it ultimately? Listen, when he became president, economic pressures, certainly there are people who wish that he would nationalize the mines, that he would take all that money away from all the white people, Europeans who owned it and, you know, redistribute it. But, you know, the wrath of, you know, the capitalist rest of the world would have killed that country. It's interesting that you find over time that most governments become puppets of some kind or another. And the ones that really don't

are sort of totalitarian or fascistic. It's hard to resist the forces, the power of the market, the hammer that is the market. Yeah, well, that's the way the whole thing's built. Yeah, it's literally the way the whole thing's built. And, you know, if I learned one thing growing up in a Marx household is that economic systems are world systems. So if you're either everybody has to be Marxist or communist or everybody has to be, you know, capitalist and even the more socialist countries, you got to hold on to the ruling system is

capitalism. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely not the democracy business. Say it. Yeah. That idea. Shit.

Shit. Yeah. So, you know, it was, I remember actually, this is a funny story. When I was in high school, a history teacher, because of course it's the 80s, the Cold War. Yeah. There was the segment where he was explaining communism, socialism. Right. And capitalism to the class.

And I will never forget that he said, I know you guys, so you did the reading on what communism and Marxism and socialism is. And I mean, I bet that to you it sounded kind of good. And he did this motion with his hands where he kind of like twisted it around. Kind of good. But I'm here to tell you that it is never going to work. And, you know, the system,

our system is the system that makes the most sense. Those were experiments. I was sitting in the back horrified because, of course, at this point, that was just like opposite to everything I'd been taught. Right. And I went home to my dad and I was like, you know what? They were telling the children today in history class. And I explained this whole thing. Yeah.

And he just like shook his head and he goes, Americans. He goes, just don't say anything. Pretend you've never heard of any. You've never heard of any of it before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Put your head down while we're here. Yes. You don't want to be identified as one of them.

I know. I know. But you must have, though, by the time you got to college, you must have been able to sort of aggregate everything you came from and everything you were learning into some identity. Yeah, and the identity was performer. A performer. Actor, theater person. That was the identity was a performer a performer actor theater person that was yeah but what about sort of uh black woman you know yeah yeah no i mean it was it was um it was never easy because um you know i had a whole culture and a whole identity that I came from that was not American.

And I had a whole identity with struggle that was not American. Yeah. And so at times, you know, I think that was difficult to negotiate without seeming like I was above it or I was separate from it. But again, you know, I'm just a person who approaches things with a lot of analysis. I was trained to speak about politics with a kind of cool intellectual rigor, which is not always endearing. Sure. And also not thataring. Sure. And also, you know, not, you know, that popular. Exactly.

You know, in just general conversations, I would imagine with medium informed Americans at a student level. Absolutely. And I also, when any conversation about race happened, I always want to talk about class. Which is not the conversation here.

But it should be. Of course. But I mean, but it's. No, no, of course. And it felt like I was either avoiding it or I was, you know, the question of race or I was trying to, you know, but I was just like, I don't know how to talk about race without talking about class. Yeah. I'm so fun to be around. Right. Well, I mean, but those are the real conversations. But somehow or another, this this culture culture this country uh you know i think in order to keep the blindfolds on the uh the the lower classes who believe they're just a paycheck away from middle class have somehow negated that conversation 100 yeah and only until like you

know bernie sanders brings it up people are like what's he talking like yeah there's it happens here 100 yeah but you know there but yeah we can talk politics. But so how does, when does acting in and of itself become limited to you? After grad school, I moved to New York, and I had been directing things all along. So where'd you go to undergrad? I actually didn't go to undergrad. I went to, I studied, I got into Brandeis University like a good Jewish girl from Newton, Massachusetts. I totally absorbed that culture. Yeah.

And I dropped out and then I, you know, my dad forced me to go back and I went to like BC, BU. I went through all of the B schools in Boston. Because I just wanted to do theater. Yeah. And he was. You didn't study theater anywhere? He, I finally had to like, I had to get my, I escaped to London. Yeah.

I did this program at Oxford where I studied, you know, classical, classical theater. And then I got to London because a woman who taught at, Clara Davidson, who taught at that program in Oxford had a school, a drama school in London. And she offered me a place there. And I had to like basically tell my parents, I am not going to go to law school. Yeah. This is what I'm going to do. Oh, wow, yeah.

And I had to put an ocean between us to get the courage to tell, to really say this is what I'm doing. How did it land? Not well. Yeah. It's very typical immigrant story. No, I know, yeah.

What are you doing? Exactly. You know, but I just, you know what we went through. Exactly. All the sacrifices for this. Um,

yeah, but you know, it was, it was a compulsion. There was no other choice. Well, that's good. I mean,

it's a gift to have that in a curse. Yes. Yeah. So true. But so I studied, you know, acting at this place. And then I,

when I was done, I came back to Boston. I worked at a place called Project Afrique, which was a was a experimental federally funded program in Roxbury to take care of families at risk. And I worked with the toddlers of these families. I was a preschool teacher. At risk, what does that include? It includes issues of drug abuse in the family, violence in the family. And it was an attempt to kind of holistically from all sides, which is what holistic means, help mothers and families. So it provided child care. It provided- Oh, man. Was that the first time? Did that-

Well, I guess it wouldn't. But I mean, did was the context of that something that you could identify as the result of these class issues in these? Is that where the some sort of awakening might have taken place about the nature of America? Well, I think it was just, you know, I couldn't escape the feeling that I had to still be contributing something to society. You know? And that was one of the biggest arguments we had.

My dad and I was like, theater is a pursuit of the white bourgeois. Yes. And, you know, come to find out he was not wrong. Right.

You know, years later. But, you know, that you had to be making a contribution. So I felt like, okay, that you had to be making a contribution. So I felt like, okay, I was going to be an actor in Boston, which I was. I was auditioning and doing shows,

but I was also doing that. I was like 21, 22 in my day. Right. But that's interesting that, well, giving back, but the idea, I guess the idealistic and probably a bit intellectual

and romantic notion of theater being for the people and of the people is really limited by the amount of people that really give a shit about theater. Exactly. I mean, you see me directing movies now, right? But it's always there, that idea that theater can function as some sort of uh you know community space i you know and i i still believe it because i've seen i've i've been i've done work where i have seen communities transformed by what we put on stage but at the end of the day and honestly this is why i moved into film and television i just the eyeballs are limited and film and television just gets more people looking at it.

Yeah, but it's not as visceral, obviously, and it does not feel like there's nothing like the feeling of being at the theater and watching actors act and the play live. But but it is not something that we somehow were taught culturally to respect or engage with. No, it is still quite an elitist art form, isn't it? Well, I guess so, or seemingly amateur. But it's not really. No, not at all. But I think that anything to a lot of people that isn't off-Broadway or a couple blocks away is somehow like, it's either too weird or it's amateur, right?

But I don't know where this stuff lives you know i i mean because i imagine at some point you were doing you know i don't know your whole resume but the theater that that you were started directing seemed to be around uh you know black issues women issues well yes and so like when i was it was in new york for a couple years as an actor and i just felt like oh god i can't i have no control over these projects i have to wait on people and also like some of this stuff is shit and i was being some of the directors i was working with i was like these people don't know anything yeah i felt like they didn't know how to block i felt like they didn't know how to talk to actors yeah and, you know, a couple of shows I became a, you know, a force for darkness because

actors love nothing more than to hang out with people who are mad and like, what are you mad at? I want to be mad too. Like day one, first rehearsal. What the fuck is this? I know. And I was exuding dissatisfaction. And they, you know, I started getting like this following of actors like, Ooh, I'm going

to be pissed with you. I barely saw you get mildly cranky on set. And I was like, no, I don't want to be. That's if she got real mad, I don't even want to be in the room. You were correct. But, you know, then I was like, this is actually not how I want to function. I don't want to be this pissed all the time. And I certainly don't want groupies of people pissed, you know, like secondary piss.

You don't want to be the leader of the piss. No. So I was like, I think I have to put my money where my mouth is. Yeah. And that's when I was like, I'm going to start directing then if I think I'm so damn smart. Right. And I did. I worked in New York, you know, a series of executive assistant jobs and then restaurant

jobs. And I saved every penny and I self-produced like downtown, off of Broadway. Oh, really? Yeah. What choices were you making? So I did something called Shakespeare in the Parking Lot. And it's this parking lot in the Lower East Side. And I did a production of, oh gosh, Ludlow Street, I think.

I did a production of Love's Labor's Lost there. Did you get some attention? Yeah. And then I did this thing for The Fringe, an adaptation of Two Gentlemen of Verona called Two Girls from Vermont. And I put like, there's like drag queens in it and a whole bunch of Britney Spears songs. It was like a, you know, like a fiesta. A thing, a fun, funny. And people came to that.

Campy thing. Yeah. And, you know, got a lot of attention. And what's funny is like those were my early things when it was just left up to me. And then I started working with playwrights like Tracy. Yeah. And Lynn Nottage and, you know, all these other incredible women. And then I started kind of becoming known as a person who did political theater.

Did you know Carly and Liz from Glow? Yes, Carly. I knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's the best.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, the thing just sort of organically morphed into material focused on, like, race and politics. When you started working with playwrights. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. But, you know, I have this passion for music, for musicals. And so I did that for a while. You directed musicals?

Mm-hmm. And then I moved into musicals, Shakespeare. I just wanted for a while. You directed musicals? Mm-hmm. And then I moved into musicals, Shakespeare. I just wanted to do everything. Yeah, but it seemed like, you know, just from glancing over some of this stuff about you, that, you know, you were willing to move places to do the job. Yeah. I mean, I love travel. Well, what was that?

Were those like, you would do, why were you in so many different places? Where would these places go? Did they have you out to do a run? Yeah. Is that how it worked? So they bring you out, do a run? Yeah. Is that how it worked? So they bring you out. So I've worked all over East Africa. I've worked in Canada and I've worked with German writers, French writers, and then all

over America. And what happens is they bring you out to whatever town for the rehearsal process. That's like six weeks. To direct. Six to eight weeks to rehearse and direct. Each city has like a multi $10 million, $20 dollar 20 million dollar but you represent taking an exciting risk yes i think that is true and so some places i would i was the first person who looked like me directing a play in that building right you know and so sometimes you're met with this like hostility and this expectation

that you're some kind of you know affirmative, affirmative action hire, even though it's 2010. And other places, they're like, thank God, finally. Yeah, right, right, right. And so, you know, you just do your thing. You know, you block out the resistance and skepticism. That's so interesting, because those are the two ways of seeing it. And they still are. They still are.

Because I talk to guys, you know, white writers who are my age, the two ways of seeing it. And they still are. They still are. Because I talk to guys, you know, white writers who are my age who are like, no, no, no, man. I'm probably not going to get the job. They're probably going to give it

to another type of person. Another type of person. Because the threat is, I guess it is fundamentally insensitive at the least and racist or misogynistic at the worst. Right. But it's it's what's happening is actually a more competitive environment is unfolding. That's exactly correct.

And, you know, there's something that really pisses me off is when, you know, you hear a writer or director going, well, you know, it's just like it's not my time. Yeah. I mean, it's been your, it's not my time. Yeah. I mean, it's been your time for about 500 years, but okay. But the point, or like their agent told them that there's just like, there's no way. And I want to say to them all, A, agent, stop saying that bullshit to your clients. And B, look at the statistics. It's not like we're taking over. It's still minuscule. It's not like we're taking over.

It's still minuscule. And it's sincerely representational, but also it's really the fact that so many people have been carried along by the system and their friends that the system has become myopic. And it becomes impossible to have honest representation in the expression. So what's really frightening to these guys is not so much they're just aggravated white guys who feel like they're being pushed out, but it's become honestly competitive. Honestly competitive. Finally. Exactly.

And what you stand to gain from that is a widening of the vision. Yeah. I mean, listen, even like look at this movie, me and Tracy working on this movie. Even five years ago, a big studio film like this would have probably had a white dude writing it and a white dude directing it, even though it was about a black woman's life. Right. So the fact that it was the two of us is still an anomaly.

A big studio movie like this. You know what I mean? So it's just like the're the the the the progress is incremental still sure sure but they they do it's funny because it it's like i keep trying to figure out how to phrase this but they seem to be having some success in integrating fiction fictional representations of people yeah i don't i don't know true i don't know if it's gonna actually fix the things in the real world, but it looks like the fake world is becoming a little more diverse.

That is correct. Oh, man. Yeah. But I mean, I think it has to have, you know, positive implications around just, you know, in terms of the, you know, at the helm, but then that spreads out. So, you know, whatever terms of the, you know, at the helm, but then that spreads out. So, you know, whatever Jennifer's comfort level will be. I mean, it's just like no matter how non-racist or progressive, you know, a white executive or a white director or a white producer is going to be, and we've all learned to live with this, but the connection is going to run deeper

if you're like-minded and of the same ilk as the person right i think that's true and there's also just like a level of authenticity organic have to fight for yeah yeah so in terms of like the sort of capturing because like there is a focus like i just watched all of uh barry jenkins underground railroad and and it had profound effect i mean there's been like the last few weeks have been sort of profound for me somehow around this stuff uh and i don't know really why but you know that the attention he pays to this i didn't read the book but it becomes sort of like a poetic examination, a filmic

examination of the foundation of American racism and the brutality of it. And the only counter valence to it and the only means of survival was community, tenderness, some faith, but just that humanity somehow. And he really manages that, you know? And the way he portrays the black experience and his passion and focus on the aesthetic of the black body is something he's highly aware of. And it's a celebration in all its horror. His way of shooting the black body is so profound. I mean, I thought in moonlight was yeah, it was a revelation

And what how did you? Conceive like the you must have been aware of how you were gonna approach that Absolutely. I mean the way I think about this movie You know is so I grew up watching a lot of classic Hollywood movies with my grandma Yeah, and she loved Grace Kelly. She loved those kinds of glamorous, beautiful, you know, beautifully dressed,

highly stylish, you know, Hollywood glamour. But we never ever saw any movies with ourselves in them. And so I knew that part of what I wanted to do with Respect is create a film like that, like a classic Hollywood movie

with glamour and beauty where you wanted to wear those clothes and sit on that mid-century chair and drink that cocktail. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Have a, you know,

drink that bourbon the way that they are. Cause that's how I think when you're doing period, right. That's what you want. You want to just sink into it. Yeah. And so I wanted to make that kind of movie that my, you know,

my grandmother would have just absolutely loved to see herself in. So there was definitely an aesthetic to that. And also, you know, my grandmother would have just absolutely loved to see herself in. So there was definitely an aesthetic to that. And also, you know, Kramer and I talked a lot about, you know, lighting the black characters. And I just wanted black people who watch this film to feel bathed in love. You know, it was great. And I think that that definitely comes through. But it was, you know, black hair when you wake up.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, so, you really see that. Yeah. Right? So there's a couple of scenes with Jennifer where she's, you know, in bed or getting it together.

And certainly towards, you certainly towards the breakdown, where the honesty of what I think what it implies is the effort it takes to be presentable to a white culture as a black person. Yes, 100%. Yeah, and again, that comes from the writer, the the director having a lived experience of walking around earth with our black hair, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so, so for me, it was really like, I wanted to make a beautiful film.

I wanted it to be aspirational and romantic and, and feel like all the things that Hollywood has done to inspire us visually, we could have in this movie for black people. Yeah. And I think that's, that came across and it's great. And also it was like, when I've been doing these interviews and talking about,

you know, the movie, like, you know, where there's a couple of moments that, that she like sort of transcends. Like when Aretha had to sing at national events, well, mostly at Martin Luther King's funeral,

a national event of mourning, that Jennifer had to do the song and do the acting. I mean, that was sort of amazing. It's astounding what she did. Yeah. It's astounding. i remember actually at that scene you're talking about the mlk memorial forest whittaker coming out to me and saying you know he said this this feels like a religious experience oh yeah you know and then you really like when i watched it last night i'm like well you know she is you know personally has a resource of grief. She does.

Right? She really does. Yeah. It was, you know, at times I thought to myself, what kind of an asshole are you asking her to go to these places and to do these things? Yeah. Like, what's wrong with you? But all I can say is we knew that those days were going to be brutal. Some of it was not.

It was really, really hard. Was it? Yeah. I mean, you just, I remember one day we were actually working on that scene in the church where she has the breakdown and she's singing Precious Memories and she's singing about her mother.

And she, you know, we had to take a break. I think we were doing a turnaround. She was sitting in the aisles and she was just still crying because whatever she had to do to get herself there, she was still there, you know. That's the thing people don't understand. You don't say cut and then you're like, wipe your tears. Like to get, as an actor, to get yourself into such a harrowing emotional place, you don't turn it on and off. It's weird when you open it up.

Yeah. Yes, exactly. That's what Marlon was saying to me all the time. Yeah. Yes, exactly. That's what Marlon was saying to me all the time. Yeah. And I went up to her and she just kind of looked up at me and there was just like a haze. And she said, is it over yet? And I said, no, honey, we're going to do a turnaround. Turn it around.

And then she just like sort of sat back and I literally watched her keep the ball in the air. Yeah. You know, so that she could finish it that was a long day in that church i was there it was a long day when she did the for the recording of the movie part yeah yeah yeah those extras were getting salty i know rowdy we i mean we had all the church scenes those atlanta extras they felt like they were that it was their movie and they had ownership and they were you know it was their movie and they had ownership and they were, you know, it was church for them every day. Yeah, yeah.

It was real. So it's really going to be interesting to see how these different communities who hold her so dear. I mean, I think most people who like music do. But I think that, you know, the black community and the gay community are going to be the deciders. You think so?

Do you? The fans are. And the church, I guess, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think people of faith for sure. I mean, this movie has already, even I've had interviews with journalists who were very moved by it. Oh, no, you can tell when you talk to people.

Yeah. When they've seen it and they're like, hey. Yeah. You know, and they're not sort of like, they're not picking angles, you know, where they're trying to avoid saying anything positive. Yeah. They just want to talk about all the parts of the movie, which is always like, thank God. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, because it's, I just focused on making it. Because I just focused on making it, but when I ever allowed myself to take a second and step back and go, you're making the Aretha Franklin biopic, you could just want to kill yourself. Yeah. It's so overwhelming. Sure. But you just stay focused in the moment. And also you had this chunk, right? So you had this story.

So, I mean, on some level you must have found a certain amount of solace in that yeah you're not you know you're only you're making the biopic but just till 72 that's right that's right i'm no fool well congratulations oh thanks mark and it's great talking to you great working with you likewise i appreciate you casting me true pleasure and you killed it. Thank you. Yeah. Liesel Tommy and me talking about the movie she directed with me in it. Respect, starring me and Jennifer Hudson and Marlon Wayans.

Respect, with me in it, is in theaters now. Here, I'm going to play that list ball now. Yeah, it's going to happen. guitar solo Boomer lives. Monkey Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. We'll be right back. cream or just plain old ice yes we deliver those goaltenders no but chicken tenders yes because those are groceries and we deliver those too along with your favorite restaurant food alcohol and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details hi it's terry o'reilly

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