WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1263 - David Chase

Episode Date: September 20, 2021

No one is harder on David Chase than David Chase. Even after a successful career as a screenwriter, show creator and director, after changing the face of television with The Sopranos, after putting HBO on the map as the home for prestige drama, David is still beating himself up over things that happened, things that didn't, and things that could have been. Marc talks with David about New Jersey, The Rockford Files, his early fear of directing actors, The Sopranos' ending, and going back to those characters with The Many Saints of Newark. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? Hi.

You all right? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. We've had a great run of shows. I hope you're enjoying yourself outside of the in-memoriam shows, which are also great, but have sad intent. They're not intended to be sad.

That's maybe not the right word. The reason that they're re-showcased is sad. Loss is sad, and it's part of of life i don't want to be negative look man today david chase is on the show and um obviously many of you know him from the uh the sopranos he was the creator of the sopranos one of the greatest television shows ever. And before that, he was a TV writer on many shows, including The Rockford Files, Northern Exposure. But as you'll find in our conversation, in his heart, he always wanted to be a filmmaker. And now is his time.

Well, he's made a movie or two, but this he wrote this script that for the movie coming out now that he was supposed to direct. But he he couldn't. We chat about that. We chat about that. But he wrote the script for the new movie, The Many Saints of Newark, which deals with the characters from The Sopranos in the late 60s. And it's it's great. It's it's if especially if you love The Sopranos, if you know The Sopranos and you know those characters, to see these actors doing them when they were younger men is really a treat. And Gandolfini's kid plays Gandolfini, plays Tony, and he's tremendous. I think you'll enjoy it. So I talked to him in a bit.

Who didn't fucking love that show, though? I think it was the second season of glow where i when i wasn't shooting which was a lot i watched the entire run every episode of the sopranos on my phone i couldn't stop because i remember i'm old enough to remember when the sopranos aired on hbo and it was my recollection, it was the first time where you, like every Sunday, you kind of, there was a few shows that HBO was doing before streaming where it actually gave your week some sort of meaning. Like it gave you something to look forward to depending what you did with your life, or maybe you were excited every day.

I think the ones that really got people doing that were probably Six Feet Under, Mad Men, and The Sopranos, where, you know, Sunday night, you're like, you got home to watch it. It was something to look forward to. I mean, I think that's sort of the downside of the streaming thing. Everything all the time is not great because then you got to wait a year. is uh is not great because then you got to wait a year you know when they kind of kind of like dolled it out once a week had a natural sort of build to it and and you absorbed it differently and then you had to wait a year but at least every week you were occupied it wasn't just three days of uh staying up and watching all of something. But whatever. You know, it was great. It's a great show. And I miss it, I think.

It was very exciting. I mean, look, not every episode was amazing, but most of them were great. Characters were great. Goddamn, man. Gandolfini was so fucking good. Imperioli, all of them. Edie Falco, fucking brilliant. Man, we're all getting old.

But I'm going to talk to David Chase. It's going to happen. You're going to hear it right here. If you are in Connecticut, Ridgefield, Connecticut, November 11th, the Ridgefield Playhouse, there are tickets available. The New York Comedy Festival, Town Hall, November 13th, there are some tickets available. There's a Largo show here in Los Angeles. That's this month, September 28th, the day after my birthday, I believe there are tickets available. This Friday, the Aladdin Theater in Portland, Oregon, the 10 p.m. show might have some tickets. You can find them all at wtfpod.com slash tour. So I'm back for a couple of days. I was in St.

Louis and I got to be honest with you, you man after all the shit talking of missouri i had an amazing bunch of shows there it's you know i i freak out before i go anywhere and i was paranoid but yeah i'm also critical you know missouri i'm not i it's still a a sort of a political and uh kind of religious crucible of dumb fuckery. But St. Louis, it's odd. I've been there before, but I don't always remember the cities that I've been in. And I noticed that when I was driving around, realizing that, like, I remember the record store I went to.

But it wasn't like excitement. It was like being at the you know returning to the the place where the trauma happened like I just it was a sort of the tone where I'm in my rented car I'm like oh my god I've been here I've been here oh shit this is where I had the sandwich it's like with weird tone but I was not traumatized. It turns out that St. Louis is a pretty great city. It was probably an amazing city, and now it's pretty great. It's stunning. There's a lot of great buildings, a lot of good parks.

Apparently, all the museums are free and outdoor concerts and stuff. I'm not going to do a big commercial for St. Louis. I barely got into the city. I was staying outside of the city in Clayton, where the club is, which is sort of a suburb, I think. But I got out, I, uh, I ate some things, great fucking record stores, man. I went to two, I went to vintage vinyl, which is good. But then I went to Euclid records. Holy fuck. And like, look, man, I know. I don't know when this is going to end.

I don't know when it's going to stop. I know that I'm not the only, you know, 57-year-old man scrambling around buying records. And I know that every day that I buy more records, every day of my life, when I look at my records, I look at my guitars, or I look at my house, or I look at my shoes, or I look at my shirts. I realize what's going to happen to all this shit. How much of this is going to be garbage? Where does all this go? And that goes to like, seriously, though, where is it going to go? And then it goes to fuck.

I've got it. I've got to redo my will. I think who's in my I got to who's in my will. What is I got to what's my estate planning situation what i better i gotta make sure somebody gets this stuff i gotta make sure charity gets some things i should give my my pants to charity in the boots some money and stuff so that's where my brain goes but look i'm just trying to change my diet to as bad as it can possibly be so um i can die before everyone dies at the same time but back to st louis so the reason as you guys know i go to do the extended runs is to work on

the shit and it had been a few weeks before i since i did the hours and God damn it. I, I got out there, man. Those second shows, there was one show Friday, the first show Friday where I was like, that's it. That's the structure you landed on it. Uh, so tie it up, figure out how you want to end the thing, move some stuff around. You got some guts around this, these death jokes. So, you know, close with them. Don't be a puss uh and then figure out the tag so this is inner dialogue stuff so i'm doing about hour 15 hour 20s hour 25 i'd say i do have a pretty solid hour 10 that's going to be good but then like second shows friday and saturday where you got to turn on the juice, you got to tweak your fucking energy.

I just and also by Saturday, second show, I'm bored of my shit because I've done four in a row. I done one that before that. And I got to make it interesting for me. So it got real. It got weird. It was beautiful. Second show, Saturday, St. Louis. Fucking serious jazz set serious and look man i don't need to be like some comics just sort of like mark maron's gonna improvise

an entire show it's like if you're a good comic of course you can do that you don't need to whatever so but the riffing thing to sort of riff with some intention and really explore something to figure out how you think about stuff, it's a fucking thrilling, you know? It's thrilling because it doesn't always hinge on getting the laugh with me. It's a sort of like creative discovery process,

which is how I do it. But when it really goes, when you're really feeling like you're in the cradle of it and the audience can handle it, that second show Saturday was, it's just one of those things where you're like, that's never going to happen again. Fortunately, I recorded it on my phone. Oh, fuck. Who am I going to leave my phone to? I got to put that phone. I got to put my phone code somewhere where people can get it in case something happens. I have to give somebody my phone code somewhere where people can get it in case something happens. I have to give somebody my phone code. I'm going to raffle my phone code off. But yeah, so it was very productive. All five shows. And, you know, people were very nice, Midwestern people. The people at

Clementine's Ice Cream, the publicist there, Julie, she's been like hooking me up with ice cream, which I don't really need. But they make this amazing ice cream there, this place. And it's got like 90% butterfat or something. It's fucking nuts. And they've sent it to me here at the house, but I'd never been to the store. And I got there and a bunch of them come from the ice cream place. And the next day, Tamara, the woman who owns the five Clementine's ice cream places in St. Louis is like, let me show you around. Like there seemed to be some

sort of concerted effort on behalf of the city to make me assess it properly. You know, it's like, hey man, we get it. Missouri sucks, but this town, this city is okay, it's okay we got cool food we got ice cream and we got like free museums man and good record stores and decent people and kind of wild old you know brick architecture get on board i got off the plane when i got there i went right to patty's which is some old ass barbecue just shoved a bunch of ribs in my face. Definitely a celebration of food shame for me. But anyways, I was taken around by somebody who lives there. And she's, you know, I guess what you call it, a carpetbagger.

She's a transplant who fell in love with the place. But I forget that I like these places. I like these Midwestern cities. Until I get someplace, you know, I don't know what's up. And my my opinion has not changed of Missouri in large part. But I do think St. Louis is is OK with me. Had good food. Nice people. Great shows and bought some cool records. And there were no problems. I think I really have some sort of narcissism where this paranoia that thinks like, I really have to tell myself like, dude, you're not really a target. You don't have that much traction. You are not that, you're not at that level of public personhood to where they're looking for you.

Not yet. public personhood to where they're looking for you. Not yet. When they start getting to the micro, when they actually start taking over, you might be on a list. You might be on the entertainer's list for deportation to the Walmart parking lot camps. But we'll see. We'll see. In the meantime, We'll see. In the meantime, I'm offering no apologies. I don't feel contrite in any way about what I had said about Missouri leading up to Missouri, because all of my people, not only did they enjoy being exactly what I was talking about and they felt the same way. Nobody knows better than the people that are fucking stuck in the middle of it. You know what I'm saying? By choice or just by need to remain at a job or near their family. As I've said before, people in blue cities, they're not necessarily celebrating.

They do live in a certain amount of fear. Life in a blue city is sort of like, yeah, we don't talk about it at work. We just don't. You don't ask questions. You don't ask questions. And it's okay. I guess that's the way it used to be.

I guess that's what it always was. It didn't come into it. But it's not really about politics anymore, is it? It's something different. It's something much worse. Much, much worse than politics. David Chase. I was nervous about talking to David Chase because in my mind he was at the same level as a mob leader.

As a mafia don. I don't know what I projected onto this guy. He's from New Jersey. He's a writer. He's a screenwriter. He's a screenwriter. He's not the mafia, but I just thought he had to have some weight to him, man. Heavy cat. He is a heavy cat, but not in that way. And it was really great talking to him. And I enjoyed the movie. This is me talking to David Chase. The Many Saints of Newark opens in theaters Friday, October 1st, and it will also be streaming on HBO Max. He created The Sopranos and he's written on a lot of older shows, but you'll get the hang of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance.

Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. There's never a shortage of cats, David. Yeah. Yeah, it's like if one goes, you cry for a little while, then you go pick another cat.

Yeah, well, I've lost three cats to coyotes. And I never, I didn't blow it off that easy. It was not what I thought. No, of course not. Yeah, terrible. I'm sure, I think it was three, but it could have been two. One of them, the third one might have just abandoned us and gone elsewhere. Well, that's the hope.

It's like if you don't actually find pieces of it that they found a nicer place. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I had that happen to one. I just hope that like some nice Mexican lady down there. Because it used to be an indoor cat, but it pissed all over everything. So I had to put it outside.

So I always thought it had a chip on its shoulder and then it disappeared. Really? And my hope was that a nice lady took him in. Because they don't give a shit after a couple days. They're not dogs. Right. Yeah. I guess they don't.

I know. But I had to put two down that were old, and that's heavy. But it's different than coyotes. You kind of know what's happening. You're there. And you miss them, but you do realize they had a good life. Well, I think it's the whole being torn apart thing. Yeah.

You don't want to see that. Terrible. Or think about that. The worst. Yeah, you got to keep it in the house. Yeah. So I didn't realize you lived out here. It's so funny.

I talk to a lot of people all the time, but for some reason when you were coming over, I felt like I was talking to some sort of mafia Don. I was like, this guy, this were coming over. I felt like I was talking to some sort of, you know, mafia Don. I couldn't. I was like, this guy, this guy's heavy. That's because people have said a lot of stupid things about it. About you? Well, Tony Sirico said to somebody, he's been quoted that he said, you know, I know a lot of wise guys. I know a lot of really tough guys.

Yeah. But David, I'm scared of. Well, yeah, I could have fired him. But other than that. Oh, yeah, that's funny. Like, yeah, you could fire him. Yeah. I mean, as far as an actor goes.

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. But, you know, it was very interesting in the new movie to see all the guys take on those characters that we knew from The Sopranos as younger men. Right. And I thought the detail of seeing little Steven's character before he got the piece, with the comb-over. Right. That was all John Magaro's idea. Oh, yeah? Who's that?

He's the guy who played him. Oh, really? Yeah. He said first the comb-over and then we put the piece on? Yeah, that's what he told me. He said, you know, I'd like to play Stevie and we'll do the comb-over and then I'll get the piece. I mean, that was a great detail. It's a big jump from comb-over to piece.

But they worked so hard to get the gimmick, the sort of twitches right. And for some reason, you know, I saw it in a theater. I swore to God, I left the theater. This never happens to me, and I don't know if I've got it getting soft in the head, but I thought Vera Farmiga, I thought that was Edie Falco. Everybody says that. Really? Okay, thank God.

Everybody says it. Because I left thinking, like, God, Edie Falco was genius. And then my producer's like, yeah, she's not in it. And I'm like, who the fuck was that? Yeah. But there was, why is that? Does she look like her? The nose.

I mean, she had a prosthetic nose. Oh, okay. And her profile was kind of like Edie's. Okay, so I didn't realize she had a prosthetic nose. I mean, I noticed that right away. So then, of course, you can say, well, of course, he married his mother, you know. Sure, well, I mean, I got that, but I thought that was her. So I would have recognized her.

Okay. So there was a prosthetic, though. And I thought that she did an amazing job getting, what's her name? Marchand. Nancy. Nancy Marchand's twitches and quirks. Oh, yeah, she did. You know, the weird little habits of these characters that you got used to later.

But Magaro did this, the thing where Magaro walks to the door. I don't remember that. He says, tell them about their unloading the truck. Yeah. And Tony's knocking on the door. Yeah. He walks across, and he had that walk down. The same thing.

Holy shit. The same thing as Van Zandt did. Yeah. No, it was great. I guess my question, though, is that this movie didn't have to be a sopranos prequel did it really i mean like the movie was setting up tony to a degree but the movie was about another character and it was about race really in in newark i mean it seems like it would have stood on its own uh had had it not you know had it been it been detached. Yeah, but, you know.

No, but did you ever think of that? I mean, did you, like, the story didn't happen, it wasn't a story existing in your head, it was something that came out of The Sopranos? No, it was, it came because New Line approached me about doing, quote, unquote, a Sopranos movie. Right, okay.

So that's what happened. And so you sat down and put your mind to it and that's what you came up with? That's what we came up with, yeah. So you sit down with that idea and you realize, well, Tony's too young to base a movie on at this point, to run a whole movie through as the lead, right? Yeah.

So how did you connect the mythology? Why did you choose... Montessanti, yeah. Yeah, Montessanti. Because, well, I mean, everybody loves, I love Christopher. Yeah, it's great. Christopher is great. And, you know, the way, the Christopher story had been left.

There was some room there for some afterlife stuff, but that came later. Well, Lawrence Conner and I, we wrote it together. He quizzed me. What do you want to do? Do you want to do a really good sopranos episode do you want to do something different yeah and we decided what we wanted to do was make a really good gangster movie right and we figured we need a really good gangster yeah you couldn't have couldn't have jim gandolfini anymore and yeah and i you know remembered this guy dickie molt. There'd been a lot of talk about him. And I thought, and I was interested. I thought, that would be interesting. Who is that guy? Yeah. So that was it?

Yeah. And then how did the riots come up? Well, I mean, did you grow up in, you're from Jersey, right? Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. Because, I mean, it seems like you would have been right at the age where you were taking all that in. Yeah, I do remember. My girlfriend, who's now my wife, worked at the Prudential Insurance Company in downtown Newark. Yeah. And I drove her to work every day yeah or to the subway station every day so at that time I was thinking oh this is great man I hope they burn that fucking place down yeah fuck them you

know I couldn't believe it and then I thought wait a minute Denise is down there right shut up you're all right you called up yeah what Yeah. What part of Jersey did you grow up in? Essex County. My grandfather owned a hardware store and an appliance store in Haskell. Haskell. My father owned a hardware store. Really? Yeah.

Jersey hardware store. Yeah, Verona, New Jersey. Yeah. Hardware stores were great. Did you go there when you were a kid? Well, yeah. Well, he owned one in a shopping center first and i used to go he had a partner yeah so his partner's name name was tony and the kid's name was bobby yeah and we

used to go down there all the time and there was a toy store in that place oh yeah there was a lot of stuff for us oh yeah and a chinese restaurant next door so you could look in there and seeing the chinese guys plucking chickens and then uh that's a big kid memory chinese guys plucking chickens yeah sitting down on like a buck overturned bucket and you know just pull that feathers out meanwhile my father and tony would complain about the smell of the chinese food sure um and uh then he went to deeper into suburbia and that was um he was always struggling because he picked this this time he had been a draftsman yeah and he picked this time of life to open a hardware store well how old was he? 40? Yeah. It was just when highway stores were starting to open up. Oh, the big ones. Big ones.

Yeah. And so he was always trying to come up from behind that. Bad timing. Bad timing. And then when I left, they sold it to a guy who fucked it all up. And then my mother went down for a sheriff's sale, I guess. I don't know. His whole life.

Yeah. $1,340. This is after he passed? Yeah. Yeah. It was like, you know, Arthur Miller time. Really. But the hardware store, the reason I used to like to go is there was all these old guys hanging around, telling stories.

They'd just hang around the hardware store because it was this tiny town. Oh, I see. Nobody hung around. Yeah. And my Grandpa Jack, he'd let them in there and they'd all sit around. There was like a luncheonette across the street and the guy who owned it got busted for running numbers or something. Yeah.

And the nice guy Archie used to give us candy. Yeah, it turns out he was running a racket. So you're from there. You're from Pompton Lake. No, I was born in Jersey City. I lived in Jersey only until I was like six or seven. Wayne. But both my parents are from Jersey.

I'm genetically Jersey. Right. Yeah. So you grew up in that area. I love New Jersey. Me too. Because as I get older and even, you know, I remember like we used to drive on, I don't know if it was 46 or whatever into the city, you drive through secaucus and my grandmother would say can you smell the pigs

there used to be pig farms yeah do you remember pig farms i never saw a fucking pig me neither um but they used to talk about it yeah they talk about in the car on the way to new york but exactly the pig farms and of course it didn't smell good there. No. But it was industry. It wasn't pigs. No, it didn't smell like pigs. Oh, I loved the Meadowlands. Yes. I loved that whole thing.

And that's where the Sopranos was kind of originally set. In that area? In that. Well, I mean, Sopranos was set in Newark. Yeah. And Newark touches the Meadowlands at some point. Right, yeah. All those rivers, the Raritan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Newark touches the Meadowlands at some point. Right, yeah. All those rivers, the Raritan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, when I was a kid, a little kid, we used to go see my grandmother in Westchester. New York?

Yeah. Yeah. Mount Vernon, New Yorkers. Every other Sunday. And I would, and we should take the, we lived in Clifton at that time. Right. So we would take the Washington Bridge, and I would beg my father to take us home through the Lincoln that time. Right. So we would take the Washington Bridge and I would beg my father

to take us home through the Lincoln Tunnel. Yeah. Because I got to go to Manhattan and see it. Yeah, right, yeah. And at that time, there were ships there

with the prow of the boat like it was over the West Side Highway. And then going into the Meadowlands, it was like a whole fantasy land. That was like a grown-uplands, it was like a whole fantasy land. That was like a grown-up land. That was like a whole.

Yeah. I remember there was a bar with an anchor on it. Yeah. It was like a movie. Right. And it made a big impression. Oh, huge. Yeah.

Huge. I mean, my grandfather comes from Elizabeth, so that's right there. And then, you know, my grandparents lived in Bayonne for a while. And I remember we used to just squeeze into the bathroom to look out the window because you could see the Statue of Liberty barely from Bayonne. Yeah. But there was definitely that sense. I remember driving into this city when I was a kid with my grandfather to get tongue at

cats. And it was like, you just felt the electricity of it, of being in a huge world. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a... Well, I thought it was my father's world. Oh, yeah. That's what I thought.

Yeah? He owned it? Well... He lived in it? That he built it. Yeah. Him and his friends. I don't know.

In a way, that's true, I guess. Of course. Of course. But you, growing up in Jersey, your father was always what, disgruntled? Upset? Yeah. Yeah. I'd say more than disgruntled.

Yeah. He was very angry, I think. Yeah? And how many kids in the family? Me. Just you? Yeah. Oh, a lot of pressure, huh?

Yeah, a lot of pressure. Yeah. So a lot of anger in the house? A whole lot, yeah. They were fighting? They were fighting. My mother was very difficult for him, I'm sure. For me, too, but for them.

I never really understood that relationship. Really? Who the hell understands their parents' relationship? I mean, did they last the whole time? They did. Well, I guess it's a different generation. Yeah. Yeah.

And what drove you out? What drove you to show business? What was the intention originally? To get rich and famous, I think. But do you knew in high school? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no, I'm saying that.

Yeah. Get rich and famous. But what drove me out was my love of rock and roll music. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I wanted to be, I mean, after the Beatles and the Stones, that's all I could think about. That's all I could think about.

And I was in, you know, some friends of mine and I. Yeah. Two guys who were really, really good guitar players. Yeah? They still play? One of them died. Yeah. And he used to play.

He used to tour with a guy named Paul Siebold. You know who that is? Mm-mm. He died, and the other one is still around. Yeah. But I don't know how much he's playing. He played in a band? We had more like a jam band.

We had this idea that we were going to make it big. I made a movie about it, actually. Oh, yeah, with Glenn DeFini about the kid, right? Yeah. And I just wanted that so much. And then I got interested. I mean, I'd always loved movies. Right.

But it never occurred to me that you could make one so but you saw like you saw the full arc of rock and roll as a conscious person right i mean you saw the beginning of it all the way through because you must have been like what 14 or 15 in the 50s right so you saw no well close 12 12 13 but you saw like elvis and then you saw it turn into the beatles and then you saw it turn into the the rest of it in the 60s so you were there Elvis, and then you saw it turn into The Beatles, and then you saw it turn into the rest of it in the 60s. Yes. You were there at the beginning, and you loved it, so you grew up with it.

I grew up with it. And I started playing the drums probably at 13 or 14. Yeah. But it wasn't specifically to be in a rock and roll band. Right. I took drum lessons from a guy who had played with big bands, a guy named Jimmy Jerome.

Mm-hmm. And so I learned what are called, I learned to read music only on one line, but... The drum line? The drum line.

Yeah. And I was learning independence. I don't know if you know what that means. What does it mean? Well, it means that each of your four limbs is doing something different oh okay

yeah uh you know it's very difficult yeah but i loved it it was it's a jazz thing yeah so at that point in high school for what that's when that's when like pop music whatever you want to call it yeah just downhill um nothing good yeah so meet my friends and i all got into jazz for a while and yeah i just loved that i just loved it then the beatles came along yeah that was it end of jazz and goodbye jazz but by that time we'd also put everybody had put their instruments away because we got driver's licenses yeah and that was the end of driver's licenses and girls, and that was the end. Driver's licenses and you could drink. Alcohol, yeah. Yeah, that was it.

Greenwood Lake and Manhattan. Yeah. So then when does it become possible for you to sort of like start thinking about writing? I mean, what spurned you? Because I've heard that you're still like very into music, like you have a huge brain for music. I do, but nothing new, yeah. Because I've heard that you're still very into music. You have a huge brain for music. I do, but nothing new, frankly. No? No.

But where does it end? What year do you go up to? 75? No, no, no. A little later than that. Oh. Maybe the first decade of 2000. Oh, yeah?

And you do records? You have records? I do have. I just uncovered them because we moved. a pretty big record collection i thought it was bigger but i do i do have you thought it was bigger yeah i thought it was going to be like oh yeah david's record collection not not enough for that no no and i still haven't played one of them yet so so when do you start writing i started writing in film school because my analysis was that to make a movie yeah you'd need millions of dollars yeah but to write a script you need some paper and a pencil yeah and that was the way to get in so i started writing

that and who was uh what movies were you drawn towards? At that time? Yeah. Like what was making you want to do it? Well, when I first got the idea, like, you know what? Maybe this is something you could do. Yeah. Was seeing Cul-De-Sac, the Polanski movie. Yeah. I thought, maybe you could do that. Yeah.

Because there was like only four people. Right. In a house. Yeah. Because there was like only four people. Right. In a house. Yeah. And I sort of could understand, not that I was thinking production wise. Right. I just,

it seemed like something maybe I could manage a story like that. Yeah. That's all. And what was the first movie you wrote? The first movie I wrote, I forget the name of it. I wrote it with a friend of mine from film school. Did you make it?

No. No. Our writing teacher sent it down to Hollywood to a guy named Roy Huggins, who was a television writer, producer. And I got a job out of it, my first writing job. Really? So out of NYU? No, out of Stanford.

Oh, you were in Stanford. So you went to undergrad in new york yeah and then you went to stanford and then i went to stanford yeah wow i didn't even know they had a program nobody knows it's it's um it's it was mostly then documentary uh-huh which is not what i was into yeah um and now it's only documentary interesting. Because why that's, is it within the journalism school? It was, no, Department of Communications. Okay. Which was, I guess journalism was in there too.

Right. I think now it's in the drama department, but I don't know. So you were already in California. You didn't have to move from Jersey or New York. No, no, no. I was in L.A., yeah. So what was the job? York no no no I was in LA yeah so what was the job I wrote a screenplay of a TV series called the bold ones yeah the lawyers yeah the Joe Campanella and Burl Ives and Burl Ives yeah

I forget the I forget the third guy yeah and how is it that was the beginning that was the beginning and then I didn't work again for probably three or four years. What did you do to work? Well, I guess I worked with a friend of mine. We wrote a couple of screenplays for Gene Corman, Roger Corman's brother. So if Roger makes B movies, did Gene make C movies? Something like that, yeah. So I worked, yeah. But I remember i worked an entire year i think on a screenplay for 600 bucks i don't remember that what was that one

about what the hell was it something ridiculous yeah yeah it was about probably not cool anymore. It was about a gay guy. Yeah. I don't know. Not cool about a gay guy. Yeah. So that's where that goes. But you were in Hollywood in the 70s. It must have been pretty fucking exciting.

It was tremendously exciting. Like, what were you guys doing? Music? You must have seen everybody. No. Oh. You know, I don't know why, but I've never really been a concert guy that much. I'm the same, dude.

Really? And I love music, yeah. I just, yeah, because I'm only good for about 45 minutes. You know, and it's not even before I got old. It was sort of like, you know, I go, and if it's uncomfortable, if I can't see, what's the fucking point? I don't like to sit on it. Yeah, that's the way.

I can tell you the best concerts I've seen were Los Lobos, New Year's Eve, 1986 or something. Yeah, yeah. And my wife and I used to just listen to records all the time. Yeah. And all my friends and I did, too. You'd come over and they'd listen? We'd get high and listen to records. Yeah.

And sometimes my friends picked them apart and tried to figure out the parts and then try to play them or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So in the 70s, were all your friends in show business at that time? No. No. No. No.

I mean, friends from film school were trying to be in show business. I do remember that we lived in an apartment in Brentwood, and when friends came from back east, we'd get high, we'd get in the car and go down to um 20th century fox on pico boulevard yeah and drive into the lot yeah and the guy at the gate would just didn't care yeah it's nighttime yeah and you drive in pretty soon you're underneath the third avenue l uh-huh and you're in new york like it was it was uh from a barbara streisand movie. Right. Big movie. Funny Girl. Funny Girl. Yeah, yeah. And we used to do, I just loved that shit. Just loved it.

Yeah, I had a buddy, like when I first came out in the 80s, who knew somebody who had a family friend who worked at Paramount and just got us on the lot. Yeah. Walking around those streets. Right. In that lot. Oh, it's great. Well, it is great.

Yeah, it is great. Because, you know, if you love show business, it's like the secret tour, you know? Yeah. Well, I don't know if it was loving show business or loving movies. Well, yeah. Well, of course. I didn't know what show business was, but it's the movie business. Yeah, right.

I'm still not clear what show business is. I had a seven-year contract at Universal. For TV writing? For TV writing, yeah. That wasn't a good sigh. Actually, yeah. What? Well a good sigh. Actually, yeah. What? Well, it was what it was.

I had, it kept me in television. I want to be in movies, a movie director. Yeah. And then when I got here. Yeah. And I got a few jobs, I got scared of directing. I thought, oh, I could never do that. Why?

Well, tell those actors what to do. Yeah. You know, tell got scared of directing. I thought, oh, I could never do that. Why? Well, tell those actors what to do. You know, tell them what to do. I just thought, it's not for you. I didn't say it's not for you, but I just didn't do it. So the writing, though, I mean, did you get a feel? How did that work? So you were just contracted at the lot and they throw you on shows at that time? Basically.

Huh. Yeah. You could refuse it. No yeah you weren't really supposed to refuse it so what was going so it kind of worked like the studio system did with movies like you were a contract player and they would say like exactly like this show needs a guy go over and talk to so-and-so and see yeah huh that's exactly how it was and what shows did you do though the first one i did was that that was a that one episode of the bold ones the bold yeah yeah and then three years go by and the writers guild goes on strike oh yeah i had to go on picket duty oh yeah and i was extremely pissed off because the guild had never gotten me any work right i thought it was like the plumbers union or something like you'd go to we you know a union hall right and they'd say you know anybody here

worked with uh brass or something yeah and but that never happened no so you didn't have an agent or you did i finally got an agent when i went to pick a duty at paramount Studios in front of the big gates. Yeah. I met a guy who introduced me to his agent, and he was a couple years older than me. He was about to take over the back nine of The Magician with Bill Bixby. I remember that. Yeah. So we did that, and then he got hired to be the producer of The Night Stalker with Darren McGavin. Oh, yeah, I remember that, too.

Yeah. So he took me with him to there. He got fired after three episodes. Yeah. Or left, and I stayed there for seven years at Universal. So now, when you, was this, did you find it gratifying? I mean, were you engaged with it? I mean, because it's hard to tell how you're talking about it.

I know. I know. I mean, you obviously learned something. Oh, I learned a fuck of a lot. How did I? All the time I was thinking, here's what it was. Yeah. All the time I was thinking, you asshole, you took the seven-year contract for money.

Right. Money. Yeah. Money. Yeah. So you're not going to be in the movies anymore i was trying to get into the movies i was trying to shift over right but it didn't work oh so you always blame myself yeah like you sold out yeah absolutely uh-huh yeah but at the same time i was, I worked on really good stuff, I have to say. Yeah. I was lucky. What was your favorite? Back then, the Rockford Files was really good.

That was such a, it seemed like a fun show. It was fun. It was fun. And Gardner seemed like he was great. Yeah. Like a great guy. He was a good guy. Yeah.

Everybody, it was a lot of fun. You really felt like you were part of a family. Yeah. Did Michael Lerner do some Rockford Files? The actor? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. He's a character. Is he still around? He is, man. I had him on, I did a show on IFC for four seasons, and he played my mother's boyfriend in one episode. What a fucking piece of work that guy is. How so?

I mean, he was great. He was great. You know, he really, I think, believes he should have won the Oscar for Barton Fink, and maybe he should have. But now, like, he's just one of these guys where like, we're all sitting around. Here's what he did. All right, so it's a small production. First of all, all he's

doing is going like, can I have this robe? Can I have these shoes? Can I take, like, so everything on the set, he's like, can I take this home this robe can i have these shoes can i take like so every everything on the set he's like can i take this home no and then uh the what the amazing thing is though this guy you know he's sitting out in front of his trailer he's got his balls hanging out he's got he's sitting in a robe and uh so we're shooting in a house in a condo and the video village is the bathroom it's just a little bathroom so everyone's crammed in there right and we're shooting the scene and it's a low budget a little bathroom. So everyone's crammed in there, right? And we're shooting the scene in there. It's a low-budget show.

And somehow at lunch, everyone's gone. And for whatever reason, Michael Lerner went in there and took a dump in that bathroom. For some reason. Yeah, right. He had a trailer. He could have got it. So that was his set. So that's how that worked. And he also, like doing zigs with him, he'll fuck with your head, man.

I mean, he's an interesting guy, and he's a great actor, and I love him, but he's a piece of work. Like, you know, we'll be shooting. We're shooting with Sally Kellerman and him and me. Sally Kellerman's playing my mother. And he's just up in my head before every scene. He's like, do you know what you're doing? Do you make any choices? So by the time he goes,

by the time action happens, he owns the scene because he's fucked you. Right, right. So, and I think they know that. I think he knows. He,

I think he, he must, I think he did more than one. He probably did one a year, one a season. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. You know,

as a scumbag villain. Yeah. There were so many of those actors then, right? In the 70s? These guys that were all around. But Gardner was great and great to work with. Yeah, he was great to work with.

Yeah. Also, I respected the writing. I respected the show. I had been on another show prior to that. Yeah. And the Rockford people screened an episode of Rockford for me. And I thought, wow, this really seems like it's really about Los Angeles. This show takes place not just in its time slot, but in the real Los Angeles.

I felt it had some depth and character or something. So you sensed the city as a character. Yeah. And that sort of, that kind of stood out to you. And I was encouraged to write kind of satirically. I was encouraged to make fun of the bad guys that would be like pompous assholes, a little bit like Columbo, I suppose.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you had clownish villains. Self-deceiving. Right, right, right. They didn't see the part of themselves that was ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So didn't see the part of themselves that was ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was it you think that what was a big part, the big piece

of your education on that show was seeing that it was rooted in or grounded in a reality that seemed to have some integrity. Yes, yeah. So what was this stint on like northern exposure? It doesn't match.

It doesn't add up to me. I know. That was the, I'm proud to say, I think, that was the only job I took for money, except for the whole career, which I did for money. But, I mean, I'm sort of shitting all over myself, but I was just so happy to be part of it and drive to a studio. Yeah. See actors that are famous and write and create stuff.

Just the creative process. Well, it seems like you did, you know, like, I don't know what the, I'm just looking at some of this stuff, but I don't know what the Palms Precinct was. Oh, Jesus Christ. It seems like it was a pilot. You did it. It's a pilot. I did it. What was that?

It was Sharon Gless and some Italian guy. Yeah. James Marino or something. Yeah. And it ended up with a gunfight. Yeah. A couple of Hells Angels in a gunfight. Yeah.

And the chief villain had to give up because he had to take a shit, and he shit in his pants and ran into the house. So despite all this, the executives at Universal kept having faith in me. Yeah. So that was part of the Universal deal? Yeah. But, okay, so you're beating yourself up on all this, but you're sort of, obviously, you know how to do the work. You know how to get a script done.

You know how to produce a show at this point, right? Yeah. So by the time you do The Sopranos, when you started to work on The Sopranos, did you finally at least say to yourself, I'm doing something now that I'm proud of and it's not for the bread? Well, I'm trying to explain this. It wasn't all for, I didn't do it for the bread. Yeah, I understand. I was married and then I had a kid. And so, you know.

Yeah. What was your question? The question is, by the time you created the Sopranos, did you feel like you had control and you were happy about it? Yes. Yes. I wasn't happy when they said they were buying it. Yeah. I mean, we made the pilot.

Yeah. And it took about a year before they made a decision on it. Yeah. They tested it. And we're all, you know, everybody was waiting around. Right. They made a decision on it. Yeah.

They tested it. And we're all, you know, everybody was waiting around. Right. When they said they were going to buy it, I thought, oh, this is the end of my life. Seriously. I mean, look at your age. You're finished. There's another TV show.

Yeah. So wait, so was the thing that was hanging over you was that, you know, you still hadn't done movies yet? Okay. Yeah. Right. that was hanging over you was that you know you still hadn't done movies yet okay yeah right i was going to the movies and i was you know watching all kinds of movies and and so when i sold the sopranos i decided okay well that's going to be like the movies that i go to see right but i thought what i was hoping for that whole year when they didn't buy when they hadn't decided yeah that they would pass on it and that i could get another half a million dollars out of them

and put it, it was about 70 minutes long, put another 20 or so minutes in it, make a movie out of it, and take it to the Cannes Festival. That was my dream. Yeah. And that didn't happen. This other thing happened. This other destiny. It was a destiny. Oh, destiny. It was a destiny.

Oh, yeah. It was a huge destiny. But in doing that, you were able to change the filmic language of television into something. I mean, you are sort of almost personally responsible for making a five- or six-year movie. Like, there was a sense of... You know, I never saw it if it's that way. No, I never did. A five-year movie.

Yeah. I mean, because, I mean, the conversation was nobody had seen TV like that. And, you know, all the filmic elements were not in any way traditional television. And every episode, some of them more than others, felt like movies. That was my goal. So you did it.

That was my goal, to do a little movie every week. Yeah, and so not only did you do a movie, you did the longest movie ever made. Okay, but it wasn't in the movie theater. Okay. And you know the difference. Yes, I know the difference. Yeah, obviously.

Sure. You know, you fall under a spell or you don't. Yeah, right. Well, I mean, I sat and watched, when I was shooting Glow, I watched the entire, all of the Sopranos episodes sitting there on set like as if it were like a movie like every day

like I binge watched it but I mean again I wasn't in a movie theater but you know what was interesting to me was in watching it is that there were definitely some episodes

that were you know almost like surrealistic adventures yeah and that oh good yeah thank you because when I watched them the first time we all kind of you know, almost like surrealistic adventures. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah.

Thank you. Because when I watched them the first time, we all kind of, you know, looked forward to Sunday. You know, it was different. You know, you were just kind of, but like watching them all together, I really saw that like, Jesus, some episodes really, they all stand on their own,

but some of them were sort of like, you know, art. They were art movies. I know. Yeah. I know. It was the best, obviously the best creative experience of my life. Yeah. of like you know art there was they were art movies i know yeah and i know it was fun it was oh it was the best obviously the best creative experience of my life yeah and um i really i felt wonderful doing it and when you got into it though like you know how much of this sort of

like because it seems like you know whatever it is whatever reason you know you're so hard on yourself or you you know you judge yourself against this idea of yourself that didn't happen the way you want it to happen. I mean, how much of, like, the compulsion at the beginning of The Sopranos was to resolve some of your own shit? To resolve some of my own shit. I don't, not consciously, but it certainly was to, I would call it resolve the network shit. Yeah. But it was certainly to deal with network call it, resolve the network shit. Yeah. But it was certainly to deal with network shit and show that it was shit. Yeah.

That was... Show television. They showed the networks that television was shit. Yeah. Yeah. At that time, there was Elvis Costello on radio. Yeah, sure. And I used to think about this all the time.

He used to, you know, I want to bite the hand that feeds me. I want to bite that hand so badly. Yeah. I want to make them wish they never seen me. And that happened. That all came true. You showed them. I showed them.

No, it felt really good. Yeah. But in terms of like your family stuff, did you find that like when you were writing that, you know, you were bringing a lot of your personal issues to it? Yeah, well, his mother was based on my mother. Yeah, of course. He had a lot. He had some things like my father. Yeah.

Tony did? Tony, yeah. Yeah, yeah. like my father. Yeah. Tony did? Tony, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And all the Italian-Americanism came from my past.

And I still think it's maybe the most Italian-American show that's ever been on TV, and maybe even more Italian-American than certain gangster movies. Oh, for sure. It's just inside the house, that old, all that. And also inside the two different kinds of houses, you know, the Italian-Americans that were still sort of in the mindset of,

like, you know, trying to pass, right? So, you know, middle class, upper middle class Italian-Americans who want to distance themselves from the Italians who work at the pork store, whether they're gangsters or not. Right. So you've got this sort of two different styles of, you know, the people pushing back on the stereotype by making themselves seem less Italian. Yeah.

That was like the therapist family, right? The therapist family. Yeah, yeah. And the other, the doctor next door. Yeah. That was like the therapist family. Right. The therapist family. Yeah, yeah. And the other, the doctor next door. Sure, yeah, yeah. I think that came about because that was

my parents' attitude. My mother could get really defensive about, that's the way we make chicken. Yeah, yeah. And at the same time, I think there was a shame. Yeah. And at the same time, I think there was a shame. Yeah.

I think a feeling at the bottom of the barrel or close to the bottom of the barrel. About what? I think they were conflicted about their Italianism. Oh, so they... Not being Italian. That there was this idea that you don't want to act like you're off the boat kind of deal? Absolutely. My father, when I first started with long hair and beetle boots, he used to say, you look like you just got off at Ellis Island. What? I mean, I knew what Ellis

Island was, but I don't remember people wearing beetle boots and long hair at Ellis Island. But anyway. Yeah, that's interesting. But that was the lowest of the low for him, I guess. Right. So there was something like you had a lot to resolve, in terms of Italianism in the show. But I remember immediately thinking, well, he's humanized the gangster. And I don't know that it's ever been done.

And any time that it's ever been done, even in a glimpse of it, people say, well, this is a different kind of mobster in the movie of this or that. But you realize after you watch The Sopranos, I saw people doing jobs and I saw gangsters acting like people. Whereas I love Raging Bull. I watch it like once a year. It's the best. Once a year. Yeah.

It's the best. Yeah. You know, but there was still this sort of like, you know, go see, like, I guess because it was limited to the mob's engagement with this one fighter that you didn't see the full spectrum. But it was, you know, the club, you go to the social club, you get to throw the fight. You know, it was not. The stake, it defeats its own purpose. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that stuff, the language was what it was. But the narrative itself, you know, get in the box or the throw the fight. It was based on truth, but it was not a story I hadn't seen before. Whereas because you had the time with the series to explore the lives and just the day to day kind of piccadillos and nuances of people doing this job. It spread it out. You saw real people. You didn't see caricatures in The Sopranos.

No, not really. You didn't see caricatures in The Sopranos? No, not really. I saw, I, sometimes I, like, I had a hard time understanding Steve Van Zandt's, you know, approach to the character. But oddly, by the end of it, I bought it. Right. It's funny because I've seen him this week. I've seen a whole lot of, bunch of scenes because of doing press and stuff. Right.

From the show. Yeah, from The Sopranos. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, the whole timeopranos. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought the whole time he was really good. Yeah. Well, it was very specific, and at the beginning I thought, like, is he doing a good job?

And by the end of it you realize, like, well, that's that guy, I guess. That's that guy. That's that guy, but I think he also had acted a lot more and felt more sure of himself. Oh, yeah, especially when he had to. And smart. Yeah, like when he finally had to kill somebody, you know, when you had to see it. Yeah.

When he had to kill her. What's her name? Yeah, Adriana. Like that was such a turn for that character. It was a turn. You know, so maybe it's like real life. That was a turn for him. Yeah, yeah.

He said, he was saying i was reading the other day that he oh i was reading his autobiography um he really didn't want to do it he found it really hard to pull her out of that car and throw her on the ground yeah yeah it's interesting that you mentioned with the rockford files that you know you were given some leeway to give these villains a kind of almost satirical Achilles heel. Because some of those guys at the beginning played like that a little bit, like Paulie Walnuts and stuff.

But as time goes on, you got the depth of who they were and where they came from. It wasn't like that. They were like that. That was who they were. Well, Paulie Walnuts really was is tony cerrico that yeah we uh gandolfini used to call the writers uh vampires because we stole the actors lives yeah and put them on the screen now we never did that with him so yeah it was true with tony that was true. That was really his life, his mother,

and everything else. No, no, not the whole thing about his mother wasn't his real mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, his fixation on his mother. Right. His fixation on his hair,

on his mother, on his germophobia. Yeah. That was all real. That was him. Mm-hmm. And he had so much, and it turned out

he had so much fucking range, really, within that character. Right. Yeah. No, he got, there was a, when he saw the humanity of that guy. When he saw it? When I saw it. I don't know when he saw it, but when he got to that place where he was sort of childlike, you know, it was kind of amazing. I know.

Right? I know, yeah. place where he was sort of childlike you know it was kind of amazing i know right i know so with every episode when you're going through this stuff there was was there a constant sense of discovery for you yeah yeah yeah and terry winter i just have to say you know he brought so much to that show yeah tremendous amount you didn't really you didn't lay out all the seasons at the beginning no no no no no no so you had you had a room full of writers and you guys were working through. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like, I know that people get, I didn't get, I never got hung up on the ending. I was like, this is the way he wants to end it.

Let him end it. What do I give a shit? Right. But did you get annoyed at that point after a certain point? After a certain point, yeah. What do people want? Yeah, I know. I mean, and Stevie told me that the next day, where was he?

He was in Florida? Yeah. I guess the entire cast went to Florida to some place to watch the last episode. Yeah. And they didn't know how it was going to end. Oh, they didn't? No. Yeah.

Because we shot some fake endings because people were trying to find out, know we shot an ending that wasn't really the ending and yeah so he was on the radio the next day a sports show i think van zandt was yeah and he was defending it all he said that people were cursing and you know just downplay it. And it wasn't, he didn't do anything. And, um, finally he said, uh, all right, well,

okay, what would you do? Okay, it's your show now, end it. Yeah. And they didn't know what to say. Did you,

did you struggle with it? No, no, you know, yeah. I mean, Chris Albrecht, the head of HBO at the time,

said to me, two years out, said, you better think about ending the show and how you want it to end. Or I never would have. Because television never, there was never an ending to a TV series. Yeah. Most of the time it was canceled and you just had to throw one together. Exactly. Yeah.

Or you never got to do anything. Right, right. It was just gone. I mean, Rockford never had an ending. Yeah, yeah. That's true. And so, and here you were in this position. You'd created this amazing thing that changed the face of television, and you actually had control over the ending two years ahead of the time.

Two, yeah. You're like, you know, eventually we can't have this go on forever, because it's not a sitcom. They were not. Yeah. I mean, I had, I wanted to get out and do movies. Oh. Now I'm hot. Now I can do movies.

That didn't work out that well. And it's amazing. Yeah. Because I will say this. Yeah. That show made that network. Yeah. It did.

And it made them a huge amount of money. Yeah. That show made that network. Yeah. It did. And it made them a huge amount of money. Yeah. But they wanted, I think Chris wanted, this is enough of that. Yeah. I need to keep this, we're costing a lot of money. I need to keep some money for research and development for what's going to come after. And I think on some level, he was probably always thinking to himself or dreaming at night or waking up with, what's going to come after that? What are we going to do after that?

And on some level he probably wanted to get to that. Yeah. Let me face that demon. Sure. Right. What are we going to do post-sopranos? Yeah. What are we going to do with the whole the mob left?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you had two years to think about it. Yeah, I did. I had two years to think about it. Yeah, I did. I had two years to think about it. Probably shouldn't have taken two years to think that up, but I'm kidding. You just knew Journey was the answer.

No, I didn't know Journey was the answer. Oh, you didn't? No. No. No. Journey was in pre-production. There was going to be a song at the end. Yeah. He was going to play with the jukebox.

Yeah. And I was in the scout van with all the department heads. Yeah. Production design. We're looking for locations. Right. And I never had done this before. I said, listen, I'm going to talk about three songs that I want thinking about for ending the show.

And they were like, he's asking us yeah and right one of them was al green what the hell's the name of that song love and happiness love and happiness yeah exactly okay the second the second one i don't remember and the journey song right don't stop believing they went oh jesus christ no don't stop believing. They went, oh, Jesus Christ, no, don't do that. Right. Oh, fuck. And I said, well, I guess that's it. That's the one. But I wasn't saying that because just to throw it in their face. Yeah. I just thought that was kind of my favorite.

And I just thought it got a reaction of some kind. So I can make this song lovable um right which it was you know it had been yeah um anyway did you direct that last episode yeah so you were aware of you created attention there knowing you know that the the end was just going to be them eating. Yeah. So you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The parking the car. I know. It must have been just so fucking.

It was fun. It was. When I say it was fun. Yeah. You know. Knowing. Doing it and knowing where you were going. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, when I say it was fun, I don't know what. I have an aversion. I think a lot of people do in the movie and TV business, to saying it was really fun. Yeah. It has to seem deeper than that, but it was really fun. The whole thing or that episode?

The whole thing. Yeah. I mean, there's some bad times, but the whole thing. And that episode particularly. Yeah. Like, in the course of it it when you look back on it and having not known where it was all going to go really you know what are you proudest of about in in in that in terms of creatively

like are you is it the way that uh uh what's that guy's name frank vincent is it frank vincent was it the way he died that's you gotta be pretty proud of that I was pretty I was pretty proud of that Now that you mention it. Yeah, I was pretty proud of that. So was that so seriously is that my whole thing is just just creating shit and Where people are gonna. Oh my god, is that my my hold impulse? I don't think so. No No, I but I do think like. I did like that.

Right. And the little kids bounced up and down when I remember they say, I must say, now you're making me brag about it and relive it. It was. Fucking great. People couldn't believe it. It was fucking great. No, I don't think it was.

I don't think that's your whole thing to shock people. I think that, you know. It isn't. It really isn't. Of course not. I mean, I would never assume that because you never thought like, you know, this guy's just doing this to, you know, to blow our minds with shock bullshit. It was just like you humanize these guys who did horrible things. Well.

And that's that. Yes. I mean, and, you know, there were four or five other writers in the room with me who would not have let that be just a shock. No. In fact, some of them I had to talk out of that. They don't, you know, just don't. I remember Chris Albrecht said to me when we started, when we did the pilot. And we had the Bada Bing and, you know, Topless Dancers, which are against the law in New Jersey.

And he said, let's not do something just because we can. We had the Bada Bing and, you know, Topless Dancers, which are against the law in New Jersey. And he said, let's not do something just because we can. And I thought, that's pretty smart. I mean, I never heard a network guy be that intelligent. Right. Well, I mean, he was, you know, it was HBO, right? Yeah, but I mean, that was, I always had, that's a really good way to go about it. Yeah.

Yeah, and it worked out beautifully. Now, so you still seem a little mad that you didn't do more movies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this movie, now, you were supposed to direct it? I was, yeah. What happened?

I was, illness is in the family. Oh, sorry. But you were there the whole time, huh? Yeah. Yeah. 90%. the family oh sorry but you were there the whole time huh yeah yeah 90 what when when you really thought about making race an element was that uh some sort of reaction to the the times we're living in now or was that always part of the story for you that was always part of the story um the times we're living in now this is easy for a white person to say, I guess, started after we were finished principal photography.

George Floyd, that happened after we were done. Yeah. And we were fighting with this movie, which wasn't really working for me. Why? Just could have been better. I don't know. It was- When you were shooting it?

No. Oh, right. We were finished shooting. Oh. Finished shooting during the editing No. Oh, right. We were finished shooting during the editing process. Oh, okay. And a lot of people found it confusing. I mean, you know, we had test audiences.

Sure. And they didn't know whether they were supposed to be picking out people. Oh, that's Silvio. Yeah. So that was confusing. They couldn't follow the story because of that. And anyway, so we did another 15 pages after after george floyd and we didn't change any of that yeah none of the racial stuff was changed now there was a thing with the sopranos where um it seemed like for a long time

maybe the whole time now i know there were some bad episodes and some good episodes, but even the bad ones I feel are pretty good. Yeah. But we couldn't put a foot wrong for some reason. I don't know what that means. And it's not about my talent or anybody's talent. Something, I know this sounds weird, something was guiding something.

Yeah. And it became so something. Yeah. And it became so successful. Yeah. At the same time, we would put things in the show. And then it would happen two weeks later in the real world. That happened again with the movie. Oh, I see. Yeah.

We made a movie. We made a movie about racial tension and anti-black feelings. Yeah. And we shut down. And lo and behold, everybody says, how did you know this was? Right. Did you rewrote this after George Floyd? And we said, no.

Yeah. So that happened all the time with the show. And I'm not taking any credit for it. I never understood it. But it did happen. Yeah. I mean, that whole part of it, like historically and just also the kind of standoff between those communities

and also the way they work together. I mean, it's stuff I didn't really know about. It was great. And Ray Liotta was great. I mean, Jesus. Now, what about, can we talk about that device? No, I don't want to talk about that. Okay.

I don't want to talk about that. But when you enlisted him to do the job you hadn't worked with him before had you no I try it we tried to work I went to see him on location in Virginia to get him to play the part of to ask him to play the part of Ralphie which is what Joe Plano Leone ultimately played. Oh, my God. I can't see anyone else doing that. I know.

I mean, I could see how Ray could have done it. Oh, yeah. Joey Pants was... Unbelievable. Oh, shit. Unbelievable. Wow. I know.

I know. Just talking to that guy is unbelievable. I interviewed him on Zoom during the pandemic. He's like, what's going on? You know, he's like, he's just Joey's going on you know he's like he's just joey pants man yeah and he's such a lit up guy yeah he's amazing yeah he's amazing and and the best part of it for me was the last episode he was in i guess after his movie son got shot with the arrow and oh yeah he was in the hospital yeah it the hospital. It was never going to be the same anymore.

There was a whole different Ralphie. You just saw Ralphie really be destroyed. Yeah. And he did that. And you felt really bad for him, this asshole. Yeah, right. Yeah. Right.

Do you love working with these actors i mean that was your fear uh initially uh about directing and then you got this amazing opportunity to work with such a big variety of no i yes i really enjoyed it yeah i really enjoyed it must have been just sort of astounding like every every every episode well i'd lost my fear of that a while before that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I worked with Sam Waterston, and it was incredible. But anyway, yeah, I lost it after a while. Sure, sure. What'd you work with Waterston on?

There was a show called I'll Fly Away. Oh, yeah? It was a show about race. Oh, yeah. About a white lawyer who was based on, or cribbed from, I don't know how you want to put it, from Atticus Finch. Who was that? Yeah, To Kill a Mockingbird? Yeah, right.

Yeah, okay. I get it, yeah. So now are you happy with the movie? Oh, yeah. Okay. I am. Good, thank God. I am, I am.

It's a relief, right? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Well, who knows? I mean, there's so much excitement about it that I just can't believe it. I was excited to see it, and I loved it. You saw it in a theater. I did, yeah.

I saw it over on the lot. A small theater, but it was definitely a theater. It was actually not so small. It was a big screening room. What's the studio? Because I must have... Warner Brothers. Yeah, I went over to Warner Brothers, and it was in their big room.

Oh. So they have smaller ones that are like... you know, but this was a full theater. No one was in it. It was me and Elvis Mitchell and somebody else. Yeah, I know the one you mean. Yeah. It's nice. I saw Enter the Dragon there in 1971.

My agent got me in to see that at night. Really? Yeah. At that screening room. I think I was the only person in there. That's great. Yeah. Was that exciting to see? Oh, of course it was. Oh, shit. Man. At that screening. I think I was the only person in there. That's great. Yeah. Was that exciting to see?

Of course it was. Oh, shit. Man. Enter the dragon. Yeah. So now, do you got a few movies in the pipe now, or what? Well, I have a screenplay. That's what I got.

Okay. And we also have a pilot. I mean, the last three or four months have been just, I never went through this at the other movie I made. It's just been crazy. Well, people love the Sopranos. Press, yeah. Yeah, yeah. How's the reaction to it?

I guess no one has anyone written about it yet. When's it open? Well, they have these things called toe-dip screenings. Yeah. In which they have people like yourself yeah and journalists yeah come and see it in a movie theater and i or at home and i just said no we're not going to show it to people at their house they have to go see it yeah and it's been pretty good i mean really overwhelming oh good. Oh, good. But those aren't Joe Sixpack, if the people used to say it, Universe.

I love the kid. I mean, Gandolfini's kid did a great job. Yeah. I mean, Jesus. He really did. Really looks like him. I know. Is he alright? Oh, he's great. Oh, good. Alright, man. Well, I'm glad we talked. Okay. And I'm glad you're finally making movies.

Yeah. I want to, you know, what have I got? Who knows? Maybe one more, two more. Yeah. But you're relatively happy? I had ketamine yesterday. Yeah.

A small dose? A nasal dose. Uh-huh. That was good. It was the first time? Yeah. So will you still fight depression? Yeah.

My wife isn't well, so it really makes it hard. And we've been married for, we met in high school. Oh, that's terrible. I'm sorry, buddy. Well, thank you. Yeah. Anyway. But the ketamine worked a little bit?

Well, I mean, I have to go for more before I know that it actually worked. It worked while it was in my blood system, for sure. Yeah. And then, I think so. Yeah. I think it's working. Has this been a lifelong struggle? No.

Depression? No. Maybe. Well, maybe adulthood. maybe from my 20s on oh yeah i don't remember being depressed well i would say at your age that's a lifelong struggle yeah from 20s yeah yeah yeah i guess it has been yeah but just like medication sometimes or usually oh yeah i mean i didn't have any i never went on anything until i guess the 80s huh i went on some old-fashioned antidepressant oh yeah but you know what i've talked too much

about this depression shit i really have it's like that's just part of my life and sure um yeah it's not the whole the whole story no it's just but as long as you know you don't you don't you don't get depressed i used to think it was depression, but I think I suffer more from dread and anxiety. There's this combination of dread and anxiety that becomes overwhelming, and it kind of feels like depression, but it's really anxiety. Like I don't think I have clinical depression. My father did, but I don't think I have. Yeah.

Yeah, he did. What were some of his symptoms? He would just be paralyzed with sadness and couldn't get out of bed for periods of time. No, I haven't got... No, not that bad. And he would... Suicidal ideation. And he was slightly bipolar. So he'd then go into manias and he'd try all different ways to manage it. But it seemed to level off at some point.

I don't know what happened. He got old. But, you know, but it was a lot of, you know, you can see it in their eyes, you know, when they're depressed. But then all of a sudden he's like, hey, I bought a Porsche. You know, and then, oh, here we go. Good. Good for him.

Well, they love the mania but either they drag everyone through the mania and they never think they can get depressed again so they don't stay on their medication yeah that's very little i know about that disease yeah yeah anyway i saw i listened to on the way up here i listened to your uh podcast with um quentin tarantino it was really good oh thanks yeah i Yeah, we stayed focused. I mean, with him, you want to have a conversation and not just have a thing where he just goes. I think we had a nice little

arc to it, a nice engagement. I enjoyed the book. I was hearing about his stepfather. Oh, yeah. That was good stories. What is the name of that book? Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I got to get that. Did you see the movie?

Yeah. Did you love it? Yeah. The book get that. Well, did you see the movie? Yeah. Did you love it? Yeah. Well, the book's great. I mean- It's a good time. My wife and I, in our very early 20s, got to Hollywood a year after the Manson murders.

And then I was working on the Rockford Files. So that whole thing about TV show and those actors and those stuntmen. Yeah. Oh, my God. I loved it. You knew those guys. I did. Yeah.

And he, did he? Especially, you know, Garner, he was a cowboy guy, you know? What was it? Maverick. Maverick, yeah. Yeah. And, but you, like, did Quentin get it right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He really did. Yeah. Oh, it was phenomenal. I really, really liked it, yeah. Oh, God. Di yeah it was phenomenal i really really liked it yeah oh god dicaprio is too much man it's just like he's something else man that guy yeah everyone was good

yeah the book is fun and you weren't you know he goes more in depth with the with all the characters so and you already got the characters in your head so it just gives this whole other world to what you already saw yeah i mean I mean, I really liked the end. I thought the ending was great. Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah.

Great talking to you, man. He is heavy, right? He's heavy. He's got the heaviness. As Dangerfield used to call it, the heaviness. The Many Saints of Newark opens in theaters friday october 1st and it will also be streaming on hbo max go to wtfpod.com slash tour for the remaining dates also go to wtfpod.com slash merch for stuff okay here's some heavy. I'm doing the heaviness.

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