WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1264 - Franklin Leonard

Episode Date: September 23, 2021

Franklin Leonard helped change the way movies get made in Hollywood. It's not what he expected as a young Black math wiz growing up in Georgia. But after a love affair with movies that started at Kim's Video in New York City, Franklin established The Black List, a tool that became one of the hottest commodities in show business and opened doors for people who weren't getting a shot. Franklin and Marc talk about how The Black List movies made millions, how it pushed back on conventional wisdom, and how Franklin is still paving a way for undiscovered talent. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks this is mark maron this is my podcast one of the originals well i don't know if i can really say that one of the it's an old-timey podcast

12 years running or so you know when you start something that's a passion project out of pure desperation you don't know when it will become your life's work and this has become my life's work oddly and not a lot of other podcasts have grown up around me but this is my life's work. Oddly enough, a lot of other podcasts have grown up around me, but this is the life's work. We are rooted in the OG tradition of podcasting. Podcasting. Again, there were people around when I started. There were people before me, but this is mine.

This is mine. And it's still going very well. Thank you for asking. How are you doing? I appreciate all your support. Today, I'm going to talk to a Franklin Leonard. He's definitely a guy who has changed the way movies are made in Hollywood. He's the founder of the Blacklist, which I don't know if you know what it is, but it started as a yearly list of the best unproduced screenplays floating around the industry. And that thing, that list turned into one of the hottest commodities in show business. And Blacklist movies that have gotten made have earned a fortune for the studios and won a lot of Academy Awards. And Franklin is still focused on

pushing studios to think differently about the movies they make, which, of course, means diversifying the industry and making sure Hollywood represents all of America. I checked into the Emmys briefly. it seems that there is progress being made diversifying the industry and and also conversely diversifying the fictions and stories that the industry makes but uh i don't know how much impact that has on the reality we're living in and you'll listen to my conversation with franklin he he thinks that all things that you take in through your face eyes uh has some impact in terms of how you perceive the world and i think that's i think that's maybe true but i i do think it may be optimistic in terms of changing the world per se though if you think about the original intent of the movies created by the original jew kings of movies, the guys who were trying to

integrate themselves into an America that was not necessarily hospitable to them. They then turned around and began generating an America that they could live in. And it was an America that was idealized. And ultimately, I think of the way america looked in the early 20s 30s 40s uh as it evolved was informed by the movies the fictions that were being created uh i don't know it's deep shit and it's possibly a speculation on my part but uh given how much we've learned about just how soft and mushy and absorbent the fucking human brain is why not think that uh illusion uh could not change uh what is happening in reality very easily it's happening now in the worst of ways so can storytelling from a diverse point of view, the many voices of the marginalized and really representing how democracy looks today in fiction, can that illusion create a more empathetic, more democratic populace? Illusions of conspiracy and contempt and hatred and fascist propaganda seem to have great sway.

But those aren't being presented as stories or fictions in the way that a movie or television show is. Those are being presented as secret information that if you're in the know and want the truth, you can find it and then switch your perception quite easily based on your panic, fear, anger, entitlement, and different degrees of desperation. Whereas I think storytelling presented as storytelling in whatever form that comes in should lift the heart, open the heart, inform the heart and mind to other ways of life and two other possibilities, perhaps moving in the direction of the good. And that might have an impact as well. Not as satisfying as the conclusiveness and sure-brainedness of people that buy into conspiratorial bullshit to satisfy their own fucking horrendous, violent impulses and anger.

Anyway, what I meant to say is that i'll be talking to franklin leonard interesting conversations as of late here on this show uh really satisfying and good for me and it seems also good for people listening uh right now i am um i went through a sort of panic this morning that i had to put in perspective by being grateful. How's your gratitude component? How's that gauge working in your brain machine? How's your input valve on the gratitude? How's the self-generator? How's the gratitude self-generator in your brain working?

You know, I got off the road and I woke up and my water pressure was gone. There's a trickle of water. So I'm like, holy fuck, my house is broken. It's horrible when your house breaks. It's nice to be a homeowner. And again, these are luxury problems. I know I'm not speaking to everybody, but the benefit of not owning a house is that when something goes wrong, it's someone else's responsibility.

This is my responsibility and I couldn't go on my hike. I know, I'm being a baby, but you don't realize what's happening. Do you hear the pace I'm talking? Do you hear the intensity I'm talking with? This is because I haven't blown out my dopamine by wearing myself down physically. So that becomes a dangerous environment for me mentally. So I'm going to have to fucking figure that out. But I called two plumbers because I panicked, and the plumber that out. But, uh, I called two, two plumbers

because I panicked and the plumber that actually put the pipes into this place to begin with, before I had the house, he was around the corner doing some pipe work at another place that the woman who used to, who used to own this place, uh, moved to. But in my panic from not hearing back from him, I called some rando, rando plumber who had good reviews. So now I got both of them on the hook. And the guy who put this stuff in originally comes over and he looks at it and very quickly decides what needs to be done. And it's like a $700 fix. So the second guy comes over, 300 bucks, he says, and he's doing it now. That's a $400 difference just because I got a second opinion.

And he's doing it now. That's a $400 difference just because I got a second opinion. I guess the lesson here is, and most of you know this, why not get the second opinion? I was sort of in a panic emergency situation, but I saved myself 400 bucks. It's not nothing. It's not nothing. All right. But the gratitude thing was when I had water trickling out of my faucet, not trickling, it was coming out, but there was no pressure.

I was able to say, hey, I'm fortunate to have fucking water. But I was able to put that in perspective. Is that a good thing or I shouldn't reward myself that? Should I pat myself on the back for realizing that there are people in much bigger trouble than me who don't have any water and feel good and take a moment of gratitude and a nice deep breath as I panic and wait for two plumbers? I'm a fucking just a jerk off, jerk off white liberal guy sometimes. Hey, at least you have a trickle. Yeah, that's going to be a physical thing, Yeah, that's going to be a physical thing too. That's going to be a body thing too. All right, look, I'm going to talk to Franklin Leonard right now. And it's a good talk. It's an interesting talk. And you can check out everything about

The Blacklist at blcklst.com. This is me and Franklin. produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance,

you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. We're not like, remind me, I know, did we meet on a plane? We met, no, no, no. We met at the podcast movement conference in like Fort Worth when I was, we were doing

our podcast with Earwolf. And so Adam Sachs and a bunch of us went out for lunch at some point. Where was it? In Fort Worth, Texas. It was? Yeah. It was like we flew into Dallas, Fort Worth, and you were kind enough to give me a ride back to the airport. Oh, okay.

That's right. That's the flight thing. What was that? I can't remember what that. I know there was one podcast convention that I spoke at that I realized was a racket. I don't think, I have no idea. I can't remember what happened at that one. I feel like there are a lot of rackets springing up generally right

now. Oh yeah. Around all of these new spaces. We had one of the great grifter presidents who made the grift the thing. There's no reason to follow the rules of any kind. Apparently not. Yeah, and everybody's out. It's sort of staggering. I don't know what to do with it man neither do i because i was very much a rule follower growing yeah yeah um and so to discover that people just don't have like just that like

it's possible they don't care and that weirdly now all of a sudden like no one well not no one but like a significant percentage of people don't care at all. Yeah. Just get what you can. Yeah. Fuck it. Amidst real stakes too.

Like on some level, like when things like, I don't know, like, do I really care about certain grifts? Yeah. Not really. No, no. I mean, I mean like, because when you really think about the heart of America and what it's built on, you know, there's a good part of it that's grifting. Yeah.

You have religion and snake oil. 100%. Yeah. But with some real stakes now around the grifting, that's where I'm just kind of like, how do you not care about this? And more terrifyingly, how do you reestablish a world where people do care? Well, I don't know, dude. Are you going to tell me? I wish I could.

Because I got nothing. But it's like, how do you care i don't know dude are you gonna tell me i i wish i could because i got nothing but it's like how do you yeah if there is no god then all is permitted like what is that oh yeah i don't think i don't even know if that's the right reference but it feels like it might be all right well well in terms of like even with with movies and and television and books and literature and all this stuff that is the world that we move through, less and less of that seems to matter. I don't know if it does matter less. And unfortunately, I mean, fortunately and unfortunately, I don't know if there's a way to quantify it.

Well, I think that's my problem, is I'm making assumptions from where I'm sitting. When I look at the world, I'm like, there's too much to watch. I get dispatches of what's quality. I get word of mouth about what's good. But the thing that's bothering me more about outside of the grift is just that there is no center to this thing anymore. Right. And you sort of have to kind of navigate like, well, this is my – like you were talking when you walked in here.

We're awake. We're alive. On some level, that's a good day right and then if you really take uh and assess the life you're living which is generally small and has to do with breakfast and you know putting gas in your car you're like well this is my reality but a lot of times i'm like that's as far as i'm clear on what the reality of shit is well it's interesting i think that there's like a question around like reality and truth in a sort of journalistic public forum way. Right.

And then there's a question of like reality and truth around like the culture that we're consuming. And I think what's really interesting about this moment is like if you look at the numbers,

people are watching more movies and more television than they ever had before. Like in the U.S. In general. In general. And that's not just

a pandemic thing, although it surged obviously during the pandemic. But if you look at the hours of content, the number of movies, and they may not be watching them in movie theaters, but just the sheer number, that number is going up just in terms of like people in the US and sort of throughout the developed world. But as technology sort of extends into the formerly undeveloped world, more people are watching more stuff. Yeah. And so I weirdly think that it's impossible that that stuff doesn't have a consequence.

Right? And an increasing consequence. A consequence for people personally or economically? All the above. Yeah. But I think in, again, sort of these unquantifiable ways. Yeah. Right?

Like when I watch a movie, whether I like it or not, my view of the world is going to be slightly altered. Yeah. Right? Oh, for sure. And that doesn't mean in like, oh, I changed my mind about X or Y, but it may mean that I make assumptions about the people that I meet. I make assumptions about myself.

I think about the big questions in life differently somehow. And if tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, if not a billion people are seeing the same thing, when you put that into the water supply it affects right something again how you quantify it i have no idea yeah but this is also like at the core of of uh i i i'm wary to call it your mission but i mean it's it's it's adjacent for sure uh-huh that uh but we're not talking about every movie weirdly i think every movie. I struggle to think of any film, anything that doesn't, if you watch it or watch enough of it, it's not going to slightly affect. So you're going to have a terrible movie.

I get it, but does the butterfly effect, it's not even a butterfly effect. Yeah, of course it's going to slightly affect. I've had these moments where I have have i i have things in my head that are connected to scenes and movies but i can't put my finger on what the scene is but i understand the feeling yeah like i'll have a feeling and i'll attach it to a movie i've seen yeah i for months i i couldn't figure out what this feeling was and it was oddly cecil b demille telling the guy who was trying to get norm Norman Desmond's car for a shoot to leave her alone. Yeah. What is that? But I think this stuff sticks in a real way in our brains and it

affects how we think and sort of move around and move throughout the world. And so like, look, there are going to be some things that are not very good. Not very many people see those things are not going to have a huge effect sure but the sort of aggregate total of all of the stuff yeah it's made yeah definitely does and the question is is like what is in that giant basket of stuff okay who gets to see it and those are the sort of things that i think a lot about there's this like 13th century scottish poet who talks about like if i can write the songs of a nation, what do I care who writes the laws? Right. And I sort of have always believed that on some level, you know, politics lives downstream

from culture and sort of the stories that we tell ourselves about who matters and why they matter and what right and wrong is sort of going back to what we were talking about before about what is permissible. Yeah. That begins to determine what is permissible in the ways that we interact in our daily lives when we're not in the movie theater or watching things on our tvs or our random devices right well it's interesting because i was talking to brendan about it like you know even at the beginning of films now i you know we can talk about the blacklist i know you talk about a lot and i and i and i need to understand where it's at and what exactly, how it changed things, because I have a hard time wrapping my brain around things. But when you think about the beginning of film, these were Jews, some of them trying to avoid being killed.

I mean, in a great sense, it might have been a little before that. But nonetheless, in general, Jews are trying to avoid being killed. I mean, in a great sense, it might have been a little before that, but nonetheless, in general, Jews are trying to avoid being killed at that time. They come, they create this industry where they manufacture an illusion that seems like a nicer place to live. Well, I mean, look, I actually think it's really interesting if you go back even sort of prior to the industrialization of the industry. I mean, D.W. Griffith, not a Jew. Definitely not a Jew. Not necessarily correctly minded.

Exactly. I mean, you know, Hollywood, I don't know that they've ever reckoned with the fact that our first big blockbuster was Birth of an Asian and totally racist. And this is a great example. A celebration of the Confederacy. A celebration of the Confederacy.

And these are things that I've only learned about recently. I mean, this one I kind of knew, which was the rise of the Klan in the 20th century is really initiated by Birth of a Nation coming out. It validated them. It validated them. It gave them inspiration. I can't remember the exact sort of dates, but I want to say that the gathering at at Stone Mountain was like, like in the wake of the release of the movie. And separate from that, the white robes, the burning crosses, a lot of that iconography came from the film. Really?

Yeah. And these are things that I only learned about recently because I sort of have gone down like a historical rabbit hole in this respect. But like, that is the power of this medium. And look, when you have something like Birth of a Nation, that is the only big movie out at the time, literally, that is the power of this stuff. And I think that we have to think about an American culture and assumptions about what that American culture are undergird all the decisions that Hollywood makes. And so we're not separate from the rest of the country. We like to sort of think of ourselves as like, you know, we're the sort of shining city on a hill where everybody's liberal, but like our actions don't necessarily back that up in full outside of, you know, political donations and wearing ribbons on red carpets.'s interesting though yeah i mean like birth of a nation and dw griffith that was the beginning of you know i i mean i'm correcting myself because i think that was the beginning of

united artists which was really not jewish i mean it was it was mary pickford charlie chaplin douglas fairbanks yeah and griffith right or something like that but i think there was a sort of um again my historical understanding is not perfect on this, but what I've been told is that, you know, part of the reason why early Hollywood had such a strongly represented

Jewish community is because they couldn't get jobs in New York, right? It was like, finance is not available to us. All these other organizations are not available to us, so let's go build our own thing. That's right. How do you, yeah, because, right. It was the challenge of figuring out how to pass. And there were a lot of institutions

that wouldn't allow them. Yeah. Got it. But like, now, given that you've created this tool for the industry, like where did you start? Where'd you grow up? Columbus, Georgia. I mean, I was an army brat. So I was born in Hawaii and lived in Texas and Kansas and Germany for three years when I was very young. But we moved to Columbus, Georgia, which is where my dad- The bulk of the childhood? Yeah, from like eight to 17. And your dad was always in the military? Well, he joined the military to pay for med school. Black, first in his family to go to college, went to Tuskegee, you know,

paid for Medical College of Georgia where he was, I think, the third ever black student by going into the military. Really? Yeah,

retired as a full colonel. Like, you know, he was both a doctor and an army officer for, you know, pretty much my entire childhood. Wow. Is he still around?

Yeah, still around. Still teaching medicine, working as a doctor. What kind of doctor? Pediatrician. Oh, that's it. And neonatology specialist. So premature babies.

That's pretty specific. It's a wild thing. I think with your parents, you sort of know them as your parents. And as you become an adult, you sort of realize, I definitely couldn't have done any of that. Raising three black kids in the deep south while being responsible for the lives of premature babies and being a colonel in the army.

Not one of those things could I manage. And you sort of, I don't know, I have renewed respect for my parents sort of every day that I traverse adulthood. That's weird because I'm kind of going the other way. I was, look, I was, my parents are dope. I was very, I was very, very lucky. It sounds like that.

They were kind of, you know, they got things done. They, I mean, yeah. How many kids? Three kids. Well, yeah. I mean, me and my younger brother and my younger sister, you know, my parents, my mom, they're still together. My mom was a teacher.

Really? Yeah. What year? She taught sixth and eighth grade science at the school that my siblings and I went to to get a tuition break. Noble undertakings. I mean, look, they had a good, and my siblings are a lot more impressive than I am. Oh, really? What'd they end up doing? My younger brother was a professional soccer player in the MLS.

And then when he tore his Achilles tendon, he then went to medical school and is now an emergency room physician in New York. Oh my God. Have you talked to him through the pandemic? Yeah. I mean, he's very casual about it, but no, I mean, he's like, look, when he left soccer to sort of pursue medicine, it was, I want to find a sort of team sport where you sort of, you know, you prepare and you prepare and you prepare and then you're sort of in it. Yeah. And I don't can't really imagine any environment like that with higher stakes than an emergency room during a pandemic. Oh, my God. I just like, you know, as time goes on, the exhaustion factor. Yeah. And I just I don't know how one sees that much death.

I don't know either. I mean, I think about this in the context of my father as well, you know, sort of working with premature babies. I think you sort of train for it. I think that, you know, your capacity to deal with those things improves over time. I think it's one of the reasons why my brother is so successful is that, like, so much of his career prior to medicine was preparing his body and mind to endure these sort of like really adverse circumstances and i guess like honestly sadly uh you know what i've realized over the last year or two is that that you know death is as common and as un not unusual as birth and life that it's an inevitable thing. It's an inevitable thing. You just don't want it to happen to too many people at the same time.

I mean, that's a little overwhelming. Exactly. I mean, and then like my little sister does like work on like women's maternal mortality and like works with queer youth and, uh, is an amazing mother of two kids.

So I'm, you know, doing my best. You're the movie guy. I'm doing my best. Yeah. So do you live with that sort of like the idea of living up to an almost sort of selfless kind of noble undertakings of your siblings? I think that the work we do is similarly aligned, but I think, like, you know.

Do you? Did you have to bend it into that? I think like you know do you did you have to bend it into that no I think that was sort of where where I'm coming from with the work that I'm doing in movies especially now I think it is directionally consistent with the work that they're doing but like look the proof's in the pudding like like you know it's very are you saving lives man no and this is the thing I mean I remember we were at a wedding together a couple years ago and I was telling some nonsense Hollywood story yeah and then my I was like so what's how's it going for you and he's like yeah this guy had a heart attack in the er and like he walked out two days later it was amazing and i'm like yeah your story wins

yeah like yeah let me tell you about this script that i championed and got made exactly and made me up for an oscar exactly and it's like yeah i i literally saved this guy's life yesterday and that was like yeah and then you just this guy's life yesterday and that was like yeah and then you just quietly sip your drink yeah good good job let me grab you guys drinks let me take care of that for you but where does your where does your uh your sort of journey start with that so you knew you didn't want to be a doctor but it was well i'm not until college so i went to college thinking that i was going to sort of be on a sort of sciences track. I was like a math science kid.

Really? I was Steve Urkel. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was. Glasses? No glasses, but literally everything. I mean, I was like, I was captain of the math team at my high school.

Really? There was a Twitter thing recently where someone was like, you know, what kind of person were you in high school? What kind of nerd were you in high school what kind of nerd were you in high school and i tagged in a friend of mine from high school and he was like you were the kind of nerd that taught the calculus class at our high school and i was like right i've forgotten about that so you get it you get the math thing it it's always just came very easily to me really yeah i can't i couldn't figure it out i had to tap out of chemistry algebra was about where i hit the wall really yeah if it's not charm based i'm not great at it i tapped out when things started getting very theoretical like for me like if it's numbers and maybe a few letters we're good when we start talking about

like multiple multiple dimensions of space uh-huh yeah my brain just can't go that far and that basically happened when i got to college yeah so like i'm looking around and i'm like being good at math in georgia is like, being good at math in Georgia is one thing. Being good at math at Harvard is a very different thing. So you were at the top notch math nerds. These kids, I mean, look, we're talking fields medals, pioneering, making progress in math, building on history. That was never going to be me. Was that a hard hit to take? building on history. Right.

That was never going to be me. Yeah. So, um, so I had a hard hit to take. It really, in retrospect, maybe it should have been weirdly.

It wasn't. And I think in part because I said like, I didn't have much of a social life in high school as a math guy, probably wouldn't have in college. And this was an opportunity to like, okay, now I can sort of like explore these other parts of myself. And so I did, I joined the literary magazine.

I got involved in politics and that sort of at Harvard. Yeah. And that's sort of where I got pulled into the river that I think brought me to sort of my destination now. So you go there as a math major? Yeah. But you don't really have to declare for a couple of years there? The core curriculum is the same for everybody for a couple of years? Is that how it works? If I remember correctly, you can begin to take courses in your major. And if you think you know where you're going, there's some things you should take freshman year.

Right. You don't have to declare, I believe, until your sophomore year. And the literary magazine, but not the Lampoon? Not the Lampoon. Never thought of myself as funny, and so therefore it never even occurred to me. Were any of your classmates people we know, like from comedy films and any other areas? For sure, but I'm blanking right now. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, certainly. I'm blanking right now. Yeah.

No, I mean, look, my, yeah, certainly. I don't know how old you are. Were you with the Novak? Yeah, Novak was there when I was there. Yeah. Like Nick Malice was around. Many Emmys have been won by my classmates, for sure. For sure.

Now, what did you, what were your feelings about Harvard as an institution, as somebody was there, as a black man who was there? Yeah. I mean, I think as a black kid coming from West Central Georgia, going to Harvard, it felt like a fantasy. It was like they're all, and mainly for me, it was about the people. Because, you know, everyone you meet is like interesting in these like absolutely bananas ways, right? I remember being in a party and talking to somebody who was who was like yeah it was like this or juilliard and i was like oh well like okay he's like yeah i'm basically like i i'm here because like i wanted to go to college but

like i'm gonna be an oboist and like i'll probably play for the philharmonic or like i have already played for the la philharmonic right Like these were people that you would meet after doing like, you know, after like, you know, shotgunning a beer and like, Oh, what do you do? It's like, Oh, um, you know, I'm sort of pioneering this kind of mathematics. Right. And then like you check in on them via Google and you're like, Oh, you're still doing that work now. And like, you know, you're a full professor at an ivy right right yeah yeah you know

um so i think that was the part for me where i was like this is incredible yeah there are so many different kinds of people so many kinds of different kinds of people doing amazing different things and i just sort of relished that did you feel pressure i think i felt a lot of pressure that i put on myself more than anything from but like from from just your family i imagine no i mean i think my family i think just i look i i really it's it's i think about this a lot you know often in the context of therapy but i i don't really i think my parents were always i think they sort of set me down like in a direction and like the energizer bunny i just barreled through it and so whatever they were grounded.

I mean, that was good. Yeah. They probably created a good environment. Oh, for sure. But I also just don't know if I had like, if I had started washing out what their reaction would have been, but I just never did. Oh, it's still time.

There's still time. Believe me. And I think as in adulthood, there have been different conversations, but like at that stage, it was very much just like, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to do what's necessary to do it. And I was lucky enough that I was able to do most of it. Well, what did what was it, though? What I mean, what did you end up coming out of college with?

Like the literary magazine. And did you what was the major ultimately? The major ended up being social studies, which is like Harvard thing for social and political theory. was the major ultimately uh the major ended up being social studies which is like harvard thing for social and political theory oh and and where what did you feel like once you got out of harvard that it was going to be politics or or writing or what was so this was the thing i think you know through through middle school high school and even into college the goal was always just like graduate from college and do really well academically right i don't know that i had a plan after that and i think that you know through the four years of college, it started to sort of like these hazy sort of impressions of what a future might look like started to come up. And out of school, I just

sort of barreled through a bunch of different ones. So I ran, I helped on a congressional campaign in Cincinnati, Ohio, right out of school. Like literally drove to Cincinnati the day after I graduated from college. Why Cincinnati? A teaching assistant in a class that I'd had my junior year decided to run for Congress. This guy named John Cranley, who was actually mayor of Cincinnati for years and is actually running for governor now. So I did that. I moved to Trinidad, which is where my mom's dad is from, and wrote for the Guardian newspapers for six months. I had been offered a job at McKinsey. The Guardian out of UK? Out of the UK, yeah. They're sort of Caribbean affiliate. I had been offered a job my senior year at McKinsey & Company, the consulting firm.

And sort of a year out, I hadn't come up with a better plan. So I ended up moving to New York and working as a management consultant for two years. What is that job? I mean, I get like, so politics, when you got involved with politics, were you an idealist? Did you, was there? Very much so. Okay. So it was, you weren't just doing it to understand politics. You thought like, you know, you could change, facilitate change. Yeah. I was a junkie. I definitely was an idealist.

I definitely thought I could facilitate change. And I think that experience was like, you know, running. Sobering? You could say that. Yeah. I was going to say running like, you know, headlong into a brick wall. Because you just realize, and this is like you know pre-citizens united pre trump um the extent to which sort of money in politics and sort of the way these sort of

organizations uh exist and sort of move through the world and that was like okay maybe that's not for me and then i went and you know the compromise like that's the weird thing that's happening now and i don't mean to interrupt you though i do do, is that you realize that idealism in politics, not only is it almost ridiculous, but the compromises that politicians have to make, that it takes a certain type of personality to come out of politics or be in politics with any moral code, right? Yeah. And either that gets compromised.

But what we see now is that there never was one for most of them. Yep. They knew the score getting in. That's right. And I think it's one of the reasons why it's frustrating. It's also one of the reasons why I really admire the ones who sort of do have a very clear moral code and are very clearly like, look, this is who I am. If you don't want to vote for me, vote me out.

Sure. Because there's not a lot of like, you know. Right. There's pretty good clarity around who I am as a person and what I believe. Yeah. And the decisions that I make. Rare person. It's a very rare person.

So you hit the brick wall in politics. So I hit the brick wall in politics. Went to Trinidad and wrote for The Guardian. Was that a great thing? It was amazing. And in retrospect, like the idea of being like, I'm bored, you know, of sitting on the beach with a laptop and writing is an idiotic decision that can only be made at the age of 21 or 22. I guess I was at that point.

Yeah. Um, that's what everyone's working towards. I mean, Lord knows I am now. Um, if I could have only told myself, yeah,

I, but I think, um, I think that time is really good for me to decompress. Like I said, I think I had been chasing towards the end of this college thing, jumped into another thing and then really didn't have a clear sense of what I wanted from life. Yeah. I took the McKinsey job. Management consulting.

Management consulting. What is that? What is it? That's the best way to explain this. Companies pay management consultants to tell them how to run their companies better, basically. Wow. And they're a big one. McKinsey is, yeah yeah arguably the biggest and and so so i'm just trying to like i'm just trying to learn something so if like they have like uh templates or like there's yeah well so they i think is that the right word or strategies so i'm a company i come in and say we're having this problem or I'm trying to go into this new market or whatever it is. And because the consultancy has seen many, many, many problems, they can diagnose the problem pretty quickly and propose solutions because they've seen it before.

They can apply thinking and they also, you know, they sort of pride themselves on hiring smart problems, whatever. There are consequences of that though, right? Like there's all, you know, it's one thing to say, we're going to make this business decision and bear the consequences of that decision as a company. It's a completely different one to make recommendations to a company when you're not bearing the decisions and you may not have the sort of same moral framework that a company has to deal with

because you're not the one necessarily, you know. You're not taking the hit. You're not taking the hit, not taking the hit. And look, I just think there's a lot of questions around like optimizing around profit. Right. Well, I mean,

it gets back to politics, right? It gets right. Like there's a slow chipping away. That's right. Uh, and, and I think that where we started at the beginning of this conversation about

grifting is where, you know, there is that fine line, you know, when you have, there's some people that are just shameless grifters. And in some ways, there's an honesty to it. But the slow chipping away of moral integrity

and rationalizing how one goes about making more money is not grifting. It's worse in a way. I think I agree. You know what I mean? It's sort of like, because you're hiding something. Yeah. And look, anybody can go online and sort of, you know, see sort of the ways in which management

consultants go. You know, Enron was the big one back, you know, when I was sort of in that world. But there are more. So did you hit another wall? I did. I think it was a different wall. I think what was great about working at McKinsey, I think similar to Harvard, was like I was around all these amazing people.

And again, it was literally like talking to someone over like, you know, in the break room. And it's like, oh, you played in the LA Philharmonic when you were 14 and then got a Rhodes scholarship. And then you're here at the consulting firm, though? Right. I mean, this is where we're at. Yeah. Because it's like, OK, this is a well-paying job that looks good on a resume. Right.

And these firms recruit very well. It's no different than the people that end up at these sort of white-shoe law firms after having these amazing early careers. Well, that's interesting because that is the sellout, right? In a way? I mean, maybe. I mean, also maybe people want to provide for their kids. I don't know. I think the older I get, I'm... Do you have kids. I don't know. I think the older I get, I'm...

Do you have kids? I don't. Oh, yeah. Which is probably why I can continue to try to build my own company. Yeah. No, look, I think... And live freely and enjoy your life.

There you go. There you go. If possible. But no, look, I think we all have to make these decisions. Sure, of course, of course. But they're not easy, but we should probably all think about these decisions. Yeah, I mean, I'm being a little bit of a, you know, selling out, whatever that means, it doesn't always mean a negative thing.

I think the definition of sell out probably deserves a serious revisiting. to sell out probably deserves a serious uh revisiting um because also like there are people that like just yeah they're like yeah i got a real scholarship because i wanted to make money and this is a path to making money sure i don't they're probably not a sellout no yeah you forget that like that like just like i don't i was never driven by the making money thing so like and there's people that's all they want to do one way or the other. Yeah. And I guess I don't quite understand it as well as I should. I was fortunate

to make some money. I feel like I'm on a similar path. It'd be, I look, I would like stability. Sure. It's not the biggest priority.

I'd love to be able to marry making a bunch of money with being able to do a bunch of good work. And that's the dream. Well, when does that, so once you do

the consulting job, how does that, so once you do the consulting job, how does that shift into show business? So when I was living in New York and working at McKinsey, I really didn't know what I wanted to do with my life at all. And for a few reasons, I was often staffed on media

and entertainment companies. I think if I had to speculate, it's because as a black guy- As a consultant. Yeah. So, but like as a black guy with dreadlocks, my guess is that they were like less likely to put me in like, you know, insurance companies.

But with media companies, people would be like, oh, all right, maybe this guy understands something about like what's hip. They're happy they had the black guy with dreadlocks, but they wanted to use him properly. I mean, look,

it put me in a place that I think I was actually very happy to be. So sometimes weirdly those things work out, right? But I was doing all this work around sort of the operations of these companies. And I realized that the thing that I was much more interested in was like the stuff they were making.

Knowing full well that the business around them is super important to like whether those things can exist in the world and like how many people get to see them. But I was more attracted to the creative part of it. And so my entire analyst class got laid off with five months severance about a year after nine 11. Um, and that meant that I was getting a paycheck, but I didn't have to go to work anymore. Why, why, why that particular, uh, um, part of the company get laid off? Oh, it was just, we were all the junior most staff and there wasn't, yeah, there wasn't as much work. it was just we were all the junior most staff.

And there wasn't as much work. It was we were all the junior most folks. And basically it was like, look, we're going to honor our agreement to you to continue. But like, don't come to the office. We're not paying your expenses. You have insurance. You have your paycheck. Go work at a nonprofit.

Go travel. Go do something that will be good for your life. But don't come to the office right i was like hooray give us your security yeah yeah hooray that sounds great yeah and i found that i was doing a lot of work with with some some nonprofits but i also found that i was watching i would like my day most days would be to go in from brooklyn go to kim's video on saint mark's place i remember rent like three or four movies i was there i was there go back watch them back to back to back to back and then educating yourself yeah like i was like the criterion collection stuff taking

recommendations from the the folks at the at the counter like you know sort of the internet's now like sort of usable in this sense i'm just like learning about all kinds of stuff. I'm like buying, you know, copies of Putney Swope off eBay. That's so funny. So I was just sort of like gorging. And I realized at some point I was like, you know, I've always loved movies. The first thing I did when I got my driver's license was drive to Blockbuster. Yeah. But it never occurred to me as like a black kid in West Central Georgia that like this was something that I could do.

Like it literally never occurred to me. Yeah. And so in what way? In any way? Well, I knew, I knew I wasn't an actor. Uh, I didn't sort of think that I was a director. I had no reason to believe that I was, and I didn't really know about any of the other sort of roles that existed out here. And so it just never occurred to me that you could be part of the business to making movies never occurred to me. Right. Sure. And so, you know, now with a little bit of sort of, you know, my aperture open to the world, I was like, wait a minute, okay, there's a bunch of different jobs in this business, some of which I think I may actually have some aptitude for.

Like I can speak to creative folks and have a reverence for what they do, but I also can speak the language of business. Maybe that would be valuable. And I love this thing. And I don't know what else I want to do, so maybe I should give that a shot. Show business. Maybe that would be valuable. And I love this thing and I don't know what else I want to do. So maybe I should give that a shot. And so I came, I mean, yeah, like literally almost a cliche. And I came out here for the month of March of 2003, knew one person. Um, she was an assistant at CAA, um, in the motion picture lit department that represents writers and directors.

Uh, I had a drink with her her the second night I was here. A friend of hers stopped by and was like, oh, there's this agent at CA that needs an assistant. I think you guys would get along. Send me your resume. Sent her my resume, had the interview on Thursday, was offered the job on Friday, started on Monday. At CA.

At CA. It's interesting, that weird feeling of arriving in Los Angeles and realizing the scope of the undertaking. And then you just sort of get it. Like you talk to one person in it and you're like, this is in it. They're in it. It's an exciting but daunting kind of feeling to show business when you enter it. I think it gets more daunting the more you understand.

At least that's what I've found over the last 18 years. I mean, I remember, so I worked for a month. I went back to New York to pack up my life because I was still living in New York technically. you understand at least that's what i've found over the last 18 years i mean i remember so i i worked for a month i went back to new york to pack up my life because i was still living in new york technically i had really just come out for a month just snag a job and snag a job so i remember driving back so i flew back to houston texas where my parents live now bought my grandmother's car and drove from houston to la and i still remember driving into LA on the 10 as the sun was setting on like the Sunday before I would start my first day of work on Monday. And it felt daunting. It was a lot of like, what have I done? What am I involved in? And look, I still

have days where I feel like that. Well, I mean, so, but you know, working on the agency side, that's a whole other world. I mean, it seems like you, over time, you know, before you became, you know, before you found your thing, you worked in a lot of different areas of this business that I barely understand. Because agents, for me, like, for some reason, I'm one of these idiots as talent

most of my life that always saw that side of the business as the enemy somehow. And you can see it in my resume. There's a great gap. Well, I think that there's lots of different kinds of agents. And I think I was lucky enough that I landed with an agent who, like, is in it to fight for her clients. And I think that her client list and how long her clients have been with her and the success that they've had reflects that. I mean, she signed Taika Waititi when I was her assistant,

this woman, Rowena Arguelles. She's been with Taika, that was 2003. It was early 2004, right? She signed him off a black and white short film about a Maori family. And now, yeah, he's directing Thor movies and you couldn't escape his image if you tried, but she was there at the

beginning. And I think those kinds of people, the ones that are trying to like, who find talented people and champion them and try to build their careers in ways that are sustainable. Amazing. And I was lucky. And by the way, lucky enough to end up getting hired by a person like that. I don't know that I'd still be working in this business if I had sort of been working for somebody who was like, you know, look, I'm just selling. And those people exist too. Yeah. Oh yeah. So, so that was your, that

was your beginning and then you move into what? Yeah. So, um, in, in the year at the agency, I think I realized very quickly that I didn't want to be an agent. Um, and the sort of agency assistant thing is often a springboard to like lots of different facets of the business. I was much more interested in sort of the producing side of things. Yeah. Um, cause again, I thought that was a way that I could work more closely with the people that are making the thing and like be involved in the thing.

Having the impact. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I got a series of executive jobs. The second of which was, uh,

working in development at Leonardo DiCaprio's company, um, under a producer named Brad Simpson, um, who, who's now the producer of Pose and American Crime Story. Is he still at DiCaprio's company?

No, he has since partnered with the producer Nina Jacobson and their company Color Force has made all these amazing TV shows and films. But I was working for him. That's when I started The Blacklist. But I did a succession of those jobs. I worked for Leo's company in development. I worked for Sidney Pollack and Anthony Minghella.

Really? Yeah. You knew Sidney? I did, uh, in the last year of their lives. So I got hired like, uh, maybe six months before he was diagnosed with cancer, about a year and a half before. God, I love that guy. He, I, I've been very lucky in the people that I've worked for have really just been

the best people, um, in many ways. And Sidney and Anthony are very much at the people that i've worked for have really just been the best people um in many ways and sydney and anthony are very much at the top of that list pollock was like i don't know anthony that was his production partner and your director right they were both directors yeah they had mirage enterprises and sydney was sort of the la and he made some great movies didn't sydney yeah i mean literally like you know genre best in genre in multiple genres over the last 50 years i mean yeah tootsie out of africa the firm i mean it's it's just sort of the firm is an underrated movie 100 god it's a great 100 and he was like he was a great man and i think great actor too phenomenal actor yeah um and and a and a profound respect for other storytellers. I mean, I think what's really interesting about their relationship was that, you know,

Sidney saw Anthony's film, I believe it was Truly Madly Deeply, and said, like, you're doing what I'm doing. We should do it together. Yeah. What was his other big movie? I mean, The English Patient. Oh, The English Patient.

Talented Mr. Ripley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cold Mountain. I mean, you know. And just, again, two of the kindest men i've met in this business or anywhere else so with that kind of wisdom that was imparted to you and also seeing how that works it is it does remain kind of interesting that you didn't somehow find yourself in kind of old school producing i mean i was like you know when i was working for sydney and anthony

the goal was to find and make things and and we, you know, optioned the rights to Silver Linings Playbook and hired David Russell to write an directive. That's a great movie. Yeah. So, um, and then, well, yeah. And then when they passed, you know, it sort of reverted to, to, you know, the folks who ended up making the movie, but that was always the goal. And then I went to Universal for two years as a, as a studio executive to learn that part of the business. And then I went to Universal for two years as a studio executive to learn that part of the business. And then I worked in development for Will Smith's company. And I think that I was always sort of working for somebody else to do that work. Now, what was the inception?

And I'm sure you've told this story a lot, but tell it to me, like of the blacklist. Yeah. So I'm working for Leo's company. And I think this would have been true at any of the jobs that I had subsequent, but it just happened when I was working for Leo. Yeah. So I'm working for Leo's company. Yeah. And I think this is, this would have been true at any of the jobs that I had subsequent, but it just happened when I was working for Leo. Yeah. You know, look,

you're, you're seeing everything, right? Because if you get Leo attached to your movie, you've got to go. So all the scripts are coming your way. All the scripts are coming my way. Yeah.

And he's also like, you know, he's a white male actor between the ages of 30 and 45 and the big, and arguably the biggest movie star in the world. Right. Everything is coming my way. Agents are, you know, every, every day day hey i've got leo's next movie yeah and look that's their job right yeah yeah but it's the language i yeah um you know i was again i was a very a studenty

person i realized very early on in my career that like my competitive advantage was never going to be like knowing the cool people or like knowing the right spots or parties. Yeah. It was going to be like, I can outwork you. I can read more scripts and synthesize all that information and whatever. So I would read all these scripts and most of them weren't great. It turns out they weren't Leo's next movie. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, it was kind of a drag. Like it's not digging ditches, but like reading 20, you know, it was kind of a drag. Like, it's not digging ditches, but, like, reading 20, you know, screenplays over the course of a couple of days and having them all be mediocre to bad is, like, not the best way to spend one's life. Not the worst either, but it's not the best. But it does sort of hip you to, you know, that part of the business where you realize, like, just how many people are trying because you're reading solicited shit, right? That's exactly right. trying because you're reading solicited shit right that's exactly right yeah so it's sort of like if this is what's going on with the stuff that's got representation there's got to be just a tsunami of garbage out there with some good shit in it right and so the real question is is like

how do i in this job create a situation where most of the stuff that i'm getting and reading is good i don't be able to make it might not be for Leo, but like, how do I just at a minimum improve the experience of reading as many scripts as I'm having to read. But that also should then mean that like we find more movies for Leo to either produce or star in or whatever. So I'm going on vacation. This is like late 2005. I'm going to go on vacation for two weeks for the holidays. I know I'm going to read a bunch of scripts cause I'm a nerd. And I'm like, I got to make sure they're good. I just can't go on vacation and read a bunch of bad scripts.

So I send an email to 75 of my peers who have the same job and basically say, send me a list of your 10 favorite. 75? You had 75 peers? Well, again, and this is just sort of part of these jobs is like you're constantly like doing breakfast, lunch, dinner, and drinks

with people in jobs similar to yours and exchanging information. At studios, production companies. At studios studios other producers exactly so and and a significant part or at least part of that conversation is always like hey man you're reading anything good lately like what writers what projects do i need to know about yeah and so i emailed all the folks that i had breakfast lunch dinner drinks with that year and said send me a list of your favorite 10 unproduced screenplays in exchange i'll send you the combined list. I did it anonymously. Yeah. And everybody participated. Um, I think everybody, but three people participated and a few people like asked other people if other people could, could throw in. Yeah. And I, you know, threw all that into

a pivot table on Excel, output it to PowerPoint and like put out this PDF, called it the black list and like went on vacation. Like didn't think anything of it. Right. Yeah. And I checked my email halfway through vacation and like, it's been forwarded back to me again. I did it anonymously. It's been forwarded back to me like dozens of times. People were like, yo, where'd this list come from? These scripts are actually really good. And meanwhile, I'm reading the scripts in the list and I'm like, these are, these are really good scripts. It was literally stuff like Juno and like Lars and the real girl and like the queen. It's literally stuff like Juno and like Lars and the real girl and the queen. So I come back from vacation and everybody's talking about it.

And I'm like, well, I'm going to get fired. Right. I'm going to get this. There is no way this goes well. I'm going to get run out of town. So I just didn't tell anybody for a long time. Yeah. And then six months into that year, I got a phone call from an agent at then William Morris, who's pitching me on a new client. He was like, Hey, listen, don't tell anybody, but I have it on really good authority that this is going to be the number one script on next year's blacklist. Yeah. He didn't know

you were the guy. Yeah. And I remember sitting there just being like, this is a practical joke. Like what is happening right now? And then he gets off the phone and I'm sitting there like, Hey, it's a survey. So like, even if I, even if I was going to do it again, there's no way, you know, what's number one on the list. I'm not doing it phone and I'm sitting there like, a, it's a survey. So like, even if I, even if I was going to do it again, there's no way, you know, what's number one on the list. And B,

I'm not doing it again. I'm terrified about getting like run out of town. I have to go to law school. Yeah. Six months after the first one's gone out and all of a sudden people were using it to like sell their clients. Like the perspective notion of being on this list is good thing. Yeah. So it's like, all right,

maybe I should do it again. I do it again. The LA times outs me as the person who created it um but it became a thing very quickly because the subsequent year juno gets made and does very well more than the real world gets made and both of them get nominated for best original screenplay and juno wins and so all of a sudden i think hollywood started saying wait a minute if you make the movies on this list, they make money and win awards? Right.

That's why we do things. Well, I mean, what do you think, like, you didn't really know all these people that helped you out in this. So it was this weird thing that obviously was exciting to them and almost sort of like it engaged them, like, you know, it them a uh a piece like a point of view and right so they had a you know chip in this game which it must appeared uh initially as sort of a game like you know so what is it that you think was stopping those movies from being made was it was it just this this collaborative effort of uh of sort of unknown of unknown, lower rung people giving input, younger people?

How is it? No, it's a really interesting question. And it's only something that I've sort of come to in retrospect, because I certainly can't claim to be like, oh, I knew this would all spin up in the way that it has. I think there's a few factors. One, I think that the people who are participating are doing so because their job is to find good scripts. Right. And so if they can sort of put up a little bit of information and get a super valuable piece of information back, that's a valuable transaction to them.

Okay. I think the reason why many of those scripts hadn't gotten made is that there's a sort of conventional wisdom about like what can work and what can't. Right. can work and what can't. Right? So, you know, if I walked into a room and pitched, it's a comedy about a high school senior who gets pregnant and is thinking about whether to put the baby up for adoption or get an abortion.

Hollywood's gonna flinch. Hollywood's gonna Hollywood. Exactly. Lars and the real girl. Guy buys a sex doll and treats it as his girlfriend to get over sort of emotional trauma. I don't know. And by the way, I was in those jobs. I remember walking into my boss's office and telling

them that I read a good script and them asking me to pitch it. And when you realize that that's what the pitch is, it's a lot harder because your boss is going to be like, come on, man. I have limited time. I have a lot to do. You're really asking me to read a script about an Indian kid from the slums who goes on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire to find

his lost love? Let me go read a script about an Indian kid from the slums who goes on who wants to be a millionaire to find his like lost love. Let me go read this other big, you know, so they had it. So there's sensibility because like some of those that we're talking about here are into smaller movies. Yeah. But and it seems to me that like for the most part, people want to make big hits, right? And whatever the hell that means. But that's the key. I think that there's your job when you are deciding what movies to finance, what movies to produce is to figure out which are going to be big hits. And Hollywood has a shorthand for what that means, right? It means historically it's going to have a white lead. It's going to have a male lead.

It's going to be a big action movie and have big action sequences, right? That's a financial hit. But, you know, you're sort of entering a different zone with the Blacklist. Well, I would argue, and I think this is true, and I think history sort of bears this out, quality is the best business model, right? So I can't tell you that every $15 million movie that I sort of put out that gets made is going to be successful. But what if we treated the best

of those $15 million movies like they had the potential to make a billion dollars if you marketed them well, and try to build a business model around identifying the best things, financially supporting them where appropriate, and then marketing them to an audience that's likely to receive them well. So this is the thing that still blows my mind. So Harvard Business School did a study on the blacklist three years ago. And they were specifically interested in like, is there a noticeable economic effect of scripts being on the blacklist? And what they found was, is that scripts that are on the annual blacklist are twice as likely to get produced as the scripts that are circulating around Hollywood that are not on the blacklist. But more notably, movies that are made from scripts on the blacklist make 90% more in revenue, controlling for all other factors than scripts that are not.

Yeah. Which basically says, Hollywood's very good at identifying what scripts are good. They're very bad at figuring out of the scripts that are good, which movies to invest in. Yeah. Right? Because if you invest in the things that a bunch of people read and love and say, God, I wish I could see this as a movie,

you might end up making some smaller movies that are super financially successful and improve the economics for everybody. Right. And also, like, you know, it seems that this was sort of the beginning, maybe not the beginning,

but it just seems like it was diversifying the way movies are made. Not just diversifying movies, that's still an ongoing project. Yeah, no, I know what you mean, though. I think, yes, it's a... And look, the internet facilitated this. I think the blacklist is sort of one way

in which the internet has. Yeah. Because, you know, look, I wasn't about to deliver 75 messages and survey 75 people before I could just hit send on an email with 75 people BCC'd, right? So the internet facilitator, all of this, I think it facilitates the ability to identify talent in places that historically the industry has not. Historically for you to

get put on in Hollywood, you had, and this is really what happened when I launched the annual blacklist. I'd go out and speak as the blacklist guy and people would be like, it's great that you help people that are already in LA who already have reps get the attention they deserve. But I wrote what I think is a pretty good script. I don't live in LA. I didn't go to the right colleges. How do I get this thing that I wrote to somebody who can do something with it? And the answer, I would come back and ask people who were sort of more experienced in the industry than me. And the answer was like, look, enter the nickel fellowship, the academy screenwriting competition. If you place in the top 100, someone will probably call

you or just like, you know, move out to LA and like get a job at Starbucks and like network until you can figure it out. And that's great. And, and there's a long history of sort of that journey of being part of like making it in Hollywood. Yeah. For some people, for some people. Yeah. And there's a lot of people that, that, that haven't been able to have that experience, but I, but I think on the screenwriting thing specifically, it's not like acting or directing. If you can go into a room by yourself and will a world into existence that I want to read or see, I want you to have a chance at a career. You may not have the other skills that are necessary to navigate it. And by the way, it's good for Hollywood if there's an infrastructure that allows that.

I've made this joke, and I think it's actually pretty fair. Yeah. You know, imagine if the NBA, if the rosters of the NBA were like only people that like personally knew the owners of the NBA teams. Yeah. As opposed to like, we're going to go out and find the best basketball players in the country and we're going to compete to like, you know, own their work. Right. players in the country and we're going to compete to like, you know, own their work.

Right. I think if Hollywood approached things similarly, we would see really amazing stuff that none of us are expecting to see that will introduce us to new worlds and new personalities and new characters that frankly, as an audience member, I'm desperate for. That makes sense. You know, and it's sort of alongside of that, you know, it know, there was just an article out, I think, yesterday, maybe The Atlantic, about how, you know, the diversification of writers' rooms is not really happening on par with expectation, but it is happening a bit. It is. But I think that alongside of what you're saying, and I've talked about this to Barry Jenkins, and I talk i talk about it like sort of with sterling harjo and i'm i'm uh and if i i was one of the bad guys i mean i had a show on uh ifc and i had five guys

you know five white guys in my writing room but but i think to just speak to what you're saying is that different points of view this idea because i hear from like white writers all the time like middle-aged guys who are sort of like i guess i'm just not going to get to work now it's like but but that's it's not because you you know nothing the only thing that's changed is we're we're getting more voices yeah and and frankly well here's the thing I have this weird thing right where like I have no problem with the world we're in their writers rooms with five white male writers like I really don't as long as there are a bunch of writers rooms that are all black women right like sure so i like i don't need i've used this example

who knows what the show's calling for in some way well exactly and so and i don't need um like i don't need myself represented in every piece of art but i do want everybody to be represented by the aggregate of all of the art yeah sure that makes sense to me but but i think you're talking about hannah george's piece in the atlantic monthly and that was a really good piece and i highly recommend it to anybody uh who wants to go googling for it um because yeah it's changing slowly but not fast enough and i think what we're losing that there's the like moral and and sort of philanthropical, like, oh, diversity is important for blah, blah, blah. We're also just losing amazing stuff that could have gotten made, right?

There's amazing talent out there that hasn't even gotten the opportunity to show what they're capable of that we as audience members are losing because the industry is not prioritizing a meritocracy of identifying the best people. They're prioritizing, again, and there are reasons for this, the person that is easiest to get to who's good enough. But also, what's dug in is what you were talking about before. It's like you can make your way through this weird maze, maybe. Like, here's one option. You enter the contest. You get the Starbucks job. You, you know, here's one option. You enter the contest, you get the Starbucks job,

you go meet people, right? So that wall is, there's no rules to it. So it's not a meritocracy, right? Not at all. So when we talk about all this stuff that it's already difficult, but for an Asian artist or a black

writer, then it's like, you know or it's just more difficult then it's like you know it's another step removed just because of the institution is already unfair but then if there is institutional racism on top of that then it's like it's almost impossible yeah I mean it's funny someone was like well I mean do you think it's like 10% more unfair 50% more unfair and I'm like look I don't I can't put a number to it, but here's what I would say. If every single sort of decision tree point

in a person's career was 2% more unfair, and you think about the number of decision points there are in the first year of a person's career, right? Like evaluated for a contest, meeting with a manager, getting the meeting with a manager, getting the meeting with a manager. That 2% exponentially becomes, you know, a lot. And as a consequence, we see that Hollywood is among the least diverse industries in American business, which is like mind blowing. But it's true. Yeah. But but alongside of that, that through sort of desperation and persistence and technology available, there are people that can generate a thing and put it out into the world.

And then maybe someone will be like, who the fuck made this thing? Well, this is the thing that I keep coming back to. And people like, well, do you think things will change? And I'm like,

I do think they'll change, but I don't think they'll change because the system as it exists will correct. I think because there are brilliant artists out there who are undeniable. And Sterling, Barry, Ava, Issa, like, you know, the list goes on and on and on. And that's the thing that sort of consistently gives me hope is that even despite all of these obstacles, Ryan Coogler happens, right? And does it his way and does it brilliantly. And so it is possible.

right and does it his way and doesn't brilliantly and so it is possible but imagine imagine what else there is out there if they didn't have to be that much better to get that much but in this moment yeah at least it's possible right but also in this moment because of some of the artists you mentioned there is a sort of collective uh you know white guilt going on in the business so you know there they are there. So there's this opening of where those undeniable talents, they're craving it to sort of validate their fucking progressive bona fides, right? I think that's 100% right.

And I think that the real question is going to be five, 10 years from now. Right. What are the numbers look like? Because it's very easy to say, look at all these individual success stories that we've had, and they're going to be a lot of them because there are a lot of people that are going to take advantage of these momentary opportunities. And because they've had to over-prepare just to have any opportunity at all,

they're going to blow the doors off the thing. We're seeing it time and time again. But what are the systemic numbers look like? That'll really tell the tale five, 10 years out. And I'll be honest, I'm skeptical, right? Like we saw a lot of people last year in the wake of George Floyd's murder make a lot of commitments about money and time and change. And here we are, you know, more than a year out. And like most of those commitments

have not been lived up to. The conversation has shifted. Support of Black Lives Matter amongst the white community is I believe it's actually lower than it was prior to George Floyd's murder just in terms of like, you know, I don't know if it was Pew or like general polling. Like the Hollywood is very good at narrative. We can recognize when the narrative has gone wrong. We can make adjustments to make sure the narrative bends in our favor. For me, I think we always have to be revisiting the facts of the thing and to make sure that the facts and the

narrative are actually well reconciled. Right. There seems to be some success being made in diversifying fiction. How do we... That is a statement with many levels and I love it. That is a statement with many levels, and I love it. I love it. So what about reality? How are we doing with reality is the question. That's exactly right. But I do think what we were talking about at the beginning of this conversation in terms of any movie can have an creatively on every level of the business uh you know if it is you're done on meritocracy and on uh you know a diversity of voices then that should have an impact on

reality that's that's that's the idea i mean again i just think i think about the ways in which the things that i've seen let's just limit it to movies and television have sort of like affected how i see myself and and and i just feel like yeah in a world with more better stuff from as many points of view as possible we just inevitably all benefit yeah but the weird thing is is that also like what we were talking about at the beginning is you know what matters what you know what you know what is being that there's no center uh in in a lot of ways and everything is sort of fragmented in the media universe there is a a kind of um very real kind of uh momentum outside of the industry as we know it to to sort of create a world of white, fascistic entertainment product,

that there is something, there is this thing that's happening specifically between right-wing politics and comedy that is threatening in a way because they don't care about old show business. Right. I mean, look, if white fascists want to have a comedy festival like who

am i to stop them i know nobody but but i but here's the thing like i guess the bigger point is just say like how how long does the old business survive um is it still the you know that's a very good question that i don't know that i have answered i i think it will require a generational shift and who has access to the resources to determine what gets made and what doesn't. Yeah. And I think that that will take much longer. I mean, literally, you know, I was peripherally involved in this McKinsey study about sort of black Hollywood and sort of the realities of race in Hollywood. And what they found was that, like, at the top level, Hollywood is, or film specifically, is the least diverse sector in American business, less diverse than the Trump administration was.

And I don't know how you make the necessary change until that changes, because part of the necessary change is that not being the case anymore. But, yeah, but there was also an argument to be made in Variety in that piece that you were involved in, right? Where you said that you're leaving money on the table. Yeah. That study found that there's $10 billion a year annually. Yeah. That's what a year means. Yeah. $10 billion a year lost because of that lack of, because of sort of anti-black racism.

And that's just black people. That's not like Latinx community, the lgbtq community women right like i think it's nine percent of studio film directors are women like if we don't think that just that alone doesn't affect like historical gender relationships and like how we ended up in this me too moment i don't have to tell you but like we have all been sold a bill of goods about what appropriate male female reaction is and like what does power look like and who does power look like. And I think we all internalize those things and then we replicate them in our everyday lives. That's right.

Well, it becomes clearer and clearer that the human brain is really just this kind of like ancient recording device that's pretty not reliable. And it's people's sense of self and their belief systems are easily manipulated for better or for worse. That, you know, I agree with you that it's a sad thing that it doesn't take much to create a societal shift. I mean, I think, look, fundamentally,

I have this, I think, inarguably very naive view that art and storytelling at a mass scale has the potential to do a lot of good. But I'm also aware of the extent to which it has the potential to do a lot of bad. And I think we've seen historically a lot of the bad that it has the potential to do. But what is that bad? How does that manifest? Like just, you know, like just fodder? Well, the most on-the-n nose version of this is birth of a nation right

well of course right back so that's like the simplest version of it i think in other ways you know it's it it can be anything from you know the the permissibility of of uh of anti-muslim sentiment um okay right you know the notion stereotyping stereotyping like what is appropriate male female interaction in a workplace? Like there's any number of ways in which I think that like those things can have effects. Irresponsible stereotyping and mediocrity in the name of maintaining a status quo financially. Right. And here's the thing.

I think that that doesn't mean that any individual movie like there can be films that that have stereotypes of black people but that are used artistically to tell a story right i'm okay with that and i think that's a critical part of art is to be able to acknowledge the reality that we live in but that's but that's responsible right you know that the question is like what's the again come getting back to aggregates i i'm i'm loathe to criticize any individual film as being responsible for the way in which we live. Yes. I think it's more about the systems that we build that decide what culture gets made, how it gets made, and by whom. Yeah.

And that ultimately, and sort of no one is individually responsible for it, which is part of why it can sort of fall apart. But it's sort of where the problem we're at now it has fallen apart in a lot of ways and and we do have i know people that no longer give a fuck about success in mainstream show business because they're finding success in their own little worlds well and what's fascinating about that is is that's very it mirrors very much what a lot of sort of historically oppressed communities have had to do just by necessity yeah right so it's like that's right the black community was doing that in the 60s and 70s very, it mirrors very much what a lot of sort of historically oppressed communities have had to do just by necessity. Yeah. Right? So it's like-

That's right. The black community was doing that in the 60s and 70s. Exactly. Right. It's like, okay, you guys are not down with what I'm doing. I'm never going to be able to break down that door. So I'm going to go do my own thing. That's right.

Now, the circumstances are very different, admittedly. Yeah. But I think we're going to see sort of the development of these ecosystems and micro ecosystems that interact with and connect to the big ecosystem and i'm most interested in trying to find ways to identify people who are telling like wildly ambitious uh movies television scripted stories and giving them the access and resources they need to sort of realize their artistic ambitions oh so so that's how the the current so you still do the blacklist but now now you have a place where people can send you unsolicited scripts. Yeah.

It's a service you're providing. Exactly. So there's still the annual list. We do that every year. But sort of underneath the umbrella of the blacklist as an organization, we built a bunch of stuff. And sort of the biggest is, you know, it goes back to me being asked those questions of like, how do I get my script to somebody in the industry? And I never heard a good answer, but I also knew that like, if you were like a suburban dad in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and your kids came home from school and you're like, load up the minivan, we're moving to LA, dad got a job at Starbucks, like

you're probably not the best parent, but that doesn't mean you're not a good writer. So how can we sort of build an infrastructure that allows people to be discovered if they have talent? So you built this two-sided marketplace. Writers can upload their script and host it for $30 a month. They can pay to get evaluations by folks who work in the industry on the quality of their script. They get that feedback regardless.

Yeah. And then if the things are good, we give them free hosting, free script evaluations and tell everybody in Hollywood, like, this is a really good script. You should probably do something with it. How's that working out? Really well. Oh, yeah? So, literally hundreds of writers have gotten signed at major agencies and management companies

from literally around the world. The first of which happened, like, six weeks after the website launched back in 2012. You know, we have partnerships with, like, almost, like, right now, MGM and Warner Media to identify writers that'll get a guild minimum two-step deal to write a movie for a major studio. We're working with partners like the NRDC to give grants to writers. Here's a check. You're going to work on your next thing related to environmental storytelling. Here's a check to support you in that endeavor. So again, it's about providing as much feedback to writers who are outside the system as possible or those who are inside who want feedback

from a third party. Making sure that when we find good scripts, we tell the industry like, this is a good script, you should do something with it. And then creating real opportunities to put money in writers' pockets and facilitate more great stuff getting made.

That's great. Including, and we're producing some of that stuff as well. Oh, it's great. Yeah. So it's starting to take off. I think so. Yeah. I mean, look, there was this funny moment during the pandemic where all anybody could do was read because they couldn't make stuff. Right. And so I started getting a lot of incoming phone calls from very high level agents and managers that were like, so my client has read all of the stuff

they have on offer and they want to really read really good scripts. And I feel like that's a thing you do. Yeah. So I'd be sending these care packages of three and four scripts for their clients based on what their clients were looking for. And I guess word got out that we were doing this because more and more managers would be like, so I heard, I heard you, I heard, I heard you have a line on the, on the really good shit. You got the good shit.

Exactly. And you know, there were writers who don't live in New York or LA getting incoming phone calls from like Academy Award winning actors like, so I read your script. I think it's really good. Can we talk about it? And it's funny because, you know, occasionally we get incoming emails from writers who've used the site and they'll tell a story like that. And it'll be like, look, when I built this thing, I have a healthy ego. I feel like we could do some good. Yeah. Yeah that exceeds my expectation

I didn't I that was not because that's like that. It's sort of like that's one It's a good that's tangible in a human way right that like, you know, you're getting an email You did a thing that facilitated something amazing Look my the highest honor of my professional life, and it's honestly difficult to imagine this being exceeded and it sucks that it came so early in my life. Yeah. The Writers Guild of America gave me this, this award called the Evelyn Berkey Award. Yeah.

That's for like elevating the honor and dignity of screenwriters. Yeah. And like everything that we've built, and I have a team now, it's not just me. Yeah. Um, has really been about identifying and celebrating great writers, period. And, um, for her to have the Writers Guild think that I did that, like. just me yeah um has really been about identifying and celebrating great writers period and um for to have the writers guild think that i did that like yeah i don't know how you taught that that's great like i genuinely like the one thing we didn't talk about is is the disaster of the oscars

i mean yeah i does it even matter though again like returning back to the beginning and i know know, we had a nice end there, but I forgot that I wanted to talk about it. Is that like, you know, that I don't even like, especially after, you know, Soderbergh's Oscar ceremony, you know, despite the pandemic or anything else. And I understood on some level it was designed to honor the working people. And it did to a degree, but also it made me realize, like, is it necessary to even exist outside of an industry event? It's weird. So I was definitely a kid when I was living in West Central Georgia as a kid who watched the Oscars.

Yeah. And I think the longer I've been in the industry, the more I actually am okay. I think the longer I've been in the industry, the more I actually am okay. I think they matter. And I think I actually root for the Oscars to be successful as an institution. Me too. I love it. I used to love watching it all the time when I was a kid. Because the idea of like once a year we're going to come together to celebrate the notion of movies and celebrate the people who did a particularly good job.

That's a fundamentally good thing. Now, how we do it, there's a lot of different conversations around that. There's the Oscar So White debate. There's the, what does the show look like? Yeah. I'm personally a fan of, let's take really big swings with the show. Yeah. Maybe they miss.

They miss. Yeah. Take another big swing the next year. What's that look like to you, though, big swings? I have no idea. More musical numbers? Here's the thing if i had an answer i would probably reach out to them and say hey i think i have an idea here for me it's like fine talent it comes down to the same way i sort of approach making

movies find talented people and trust them to take a big swing yeah and hopefully you've chosen the right ones sometimes you don't sometimes it doesn't work out but at the end of the day as long as it has this core of celebrating great stuff the the great people who make it, I can be cool with that. Do you think that is evolving alongside of where the business should be going? It seems like it may be. What do you mean exactly? Honoring and awarding, you know, at least something that transcends expectations or the status quo of what the Oscars is about. Yeah. Well, I think the question of like what I think is a broader question about what does merit look like. Right. Like I think that the Oscars for a very long time had a relatively narrow view of what a laudable film looked like.

And I think that that's expanding as the sort of membership of the Academy expands. But I think that there have been other moments in the history of the Academy where that's happened, right? I have to imagine that with the advent of the giant blockbuster, there was a debate around, you know, is Jaws the best picture? Sure. Right? And I think we see that now, right?

Like our Marvel movies, movies, right? Like these debates are ongoing. Well, why not? Why not break the Oscars apart just like the industry's broken apart and have, you know, different Oscars for different things? I think that there's arguments in favor of many of those approaches. I don't know what the answer is. I do like the idea of the entire community coming together. Yeah.

Coming together to celebrate exceptional work. And watching Billy Crystal sing. Yes, i agree with um i look i i remember i remember i remember billy crystal being like rolled out at hannibal lector that year like i was a kid in south georgia watching that stuff yeah and again i think again i perhaps naively probably naively i sort of continue to remain really hopeful about like the creative talent of some of the people that are doing this stuff. Sure. Because I've never had a year where there haven't been a bunch of times where I've started watching something and ended it by just being like, my God, they did that shit.

Yeah. And I want to watch it again immediately. Right. And I want to watch it again immediately. Right? Like, if I have a year where I don't get to see something like Underground Railroad or Parasite or, like, sure, maybe I'll be like, you know what? Maybe we should just wrap all this up. But as long as, like, people keep doing stuff that makes me feel and delivers, like, some level of awe and makes me sort of leave the movie theater, like, with new eyes. Yeah.

You're in. I'm in. I'm in. It's just kind of that simple movie theater with new eyes. Yeah. You're in. I'm in. I'm in. It's just kind of that simple. Me too. It would have been great if I could have felt that way about medicine, but it never worked out that way. Yeah, well, I mean, I think, well, like medicine,

it's kind of like once you get the hang of it, the job is what it is. See, Grey's Anatomy would suggest different. I'm not sure. I don't know. You're probably right. But I do know. Well, obviously, you're right.

Because, like, you know, doctors, like, as much as they know, they can't seem to know most things. Everybody's different. Well, here's the other thing. I think this is actually why my brother chose emergency medicine specifically. Is that he wanted something where it's like, yeah, you prepare as much as you can. Yeah. But at the end of the day, like on the day, there's the thing and you do your best. And I also just think that the end of the day, it's kind of life.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you prepare as much as you can, but on the day you're going to do your thing. If it goes well, it goes well. If it doesn't go well and you're responsible, like maybe deal with that. And sometimes it's not going to go well and it's not your fault and you got to reckon with that too sure it just it depends what kind of stakes you want to live with well yeah right i i i broad spectrum of things not going well i would prefer that life and death immediately at least

are not uh the stakes of my individual decisions. Yes. I'm right there with you. It was good talking to you, man. You too. All right. Interesting stuff, wasn't it? Why was I just did a Carson pause?

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