WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1265 - B.J. Novak

Episode Date: September 27, 2021

Even when he was a kid, B.J. Novak wanted to achieve greatness. His hard work and ambition brought him to Harvard, to the Lampoon, to doing standup, to getting on The Office, to writing a massively successful children's book, to directing movies and creating the new anthology series The Premise. But one thing remained elusive: B.J. couldn't really understand why Marc Maron seemed to dislike him so much. It's a mystery Marc himself wasn't sure he could solve. Until now, in the garage, face to face. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucknicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Today is september 27th that is the day we're dropping this episode uh september 27th is also the birth date of me 58 years ago today i was born 58 years ago i was born. I don't know. I've lived so many lives and I know that I'm getting older, but I don't always see it. I don't, I do feel it. I know some people are like, I don't feel older. I do feel older. I'm highly attentive to, uh, to my body, to my brain. I believe I'm aging. Okay. I think one of the reasons is because I have no children. I don't have any horses in this race. Is that how it goes? I have no children. So that means I do not really see myself aging in the same way some people do. As their children get older, they can see themselves dying. I don't have that. That's cynical. And I also see their kids growing and

it's a beautiful thing, I imagine. But I don't get it when i look in the mirror i don't see myself as aging i see i'm older i get it i know i look different than i used to but i don't really know until i look at pictures that that i'm 58 years old because when i look at pictures i'm like look at that old head look at that look at that old head it doesn at that old head. It doesn't matter what I wear. It doesn't matter which boots, which hipster pants, which Western shirts. Right on top of it, there's an old head sitting there. Nice shirt, old head. Yeah, that's what's happening. I know. I see it. But I'm grateful to be alive. I'm grateful to process, I guess. I know I've been a bit dark lately, perhaps a bit dry, as they say in the recovery racket. But I'm plugging along.

You know, we had a good time in Portland and Seattle. The set's coming along. But we can talk about that in a second. On the show today, I talked to BJ Novak. And those of you who know the history of me and the history of this show know that uh yeah bj and i or oh it's really only me i it's a one-sided issue that i've had with that guy over the years and it's really just basic uh petty uh resentment that's all it ever was really just. Just old comic. I'm not bitter, but I do get jealous and I do get resentful. But you know BJ, if you don't know anything about this thing that I'm talking about.

You know him from The Office and movies like Inglourious Basterds and his children's books are popular. He also has a new anthology show called The Premise. show called The Premise. But my trip with him was years ago when he arrived on the scene. He was a contemporary of my ex-wife, Mishnas, who was also a comic. And I see him around. He's younger than me, but he was just one of those guys. He was never going to struggle in the way that some of us struggle. He was always going to be us struggle he was always going to be employed he was always going to be given opportunities and it's some it's it's it's a mixture of things i guess but in the immediate sense back then certainly uh he had tried you know he tried his hand at stand-up he wrote some good jokes uh and then he just he could do whatever he wanted he became a writer

and an actor and did movies and now writes movies now he's whatever he wanted he became a writer and an actor and did movies and now writes movies now he's got a show he came out of harvard so that was another thing to hang on him there was a lot of personal projections that i was making on to him all of them bad and in on my show marin every season i i somehow wedged in a BJ Novak reference, just kind of busting balls, just kind of taking a shot. But it's there almost. I think it's on every season. I think every season of the show, I went out of my way to bust BJ Novak's balls. And I'll bring this up to him.

The last time I saw him before this interview, I think he, for some reason, he was on the patio of the comedy store with somebody. I don't know why he was there. I don't think he does stand-up anymore. I'll ask him. But he just said to me, I said, how are you doing? He goes, you know, we're cosmically connected. And I think I said, yes, yes, I did that. I did that. So it was only, it's one-sided though, but you know, it's my side and God knows that whatever intensity I bring to the world, I've alienated a lot of people. And I feel like I'm doing it again, actually, to be honest with you. Dean and I went to Seattle and Portland. We did a show at the Neptune, nice sold out shows, all three. I've chosen to do, I did a smaller venue in Seattle than the last time.

Neptune, I believe, the Neptune Theater was where I did my first theater show ever. The last time I was in Seattle, I did The More. I remember Lynn came. And that's a huge place. And I'm just sort of like, I don't need it. From what I understand, ticket sales are okay for most people, but it's still a little crimped by the fact that the pandemic is not over. But a lot of people that came out to see us, to see me, it was their first time out in like 19, 18, 19 months. Very excited,

a very interesting energy, kind of a frenetic vibe. But we took some time up there. We went up there a day early because I like Seattle. i like the climate and you know dean and i usually tried to do a bunch of stuff get some good food i was looking for a guitar there was a lot of drama around a guitar shop that went down on instagram because i was like look i was treated like shit at a guitar shop look i'm just a guy going in we were excited man and i don't want to bring it up i don't want to bring up the name again you know it's done you know it caught it caused such a shit storm you know mostly you know a pile on on the guitar shop but i did realize something from that is that any sort of grievance any sort of need for petty justice now i'm not talking big justice. I'm not talking broad spectrum righteousness, just any public acknowledgement of an injustice, a minor one in this case, just being treated like

a fucking douchebag and then posting it. It just attracts hundreds and hundreds of grievance junkies that everybody wants an outlet to sort of air their grievance or to say, fuck yeah, fuck you, fuck that. And it struck me after I went through this, that that is what's going on culturally, politically in our discourse is that in this time of environmental catastrophe and political chaos and impending fascism and a feeling of powerlessness on behalf of everybody in this time of plague that everybody is looking for an outlet for their anger, for their feelings of powerlessness, for their needs, their need to be vindicated or their need for relief by having their grievance addressed. And this is the two

sides of it. There are two sides of it. It's a battle of petty grievances or made up bullshit. But this is the deal. The deal is like somehow or another, the idea of surrendering to the reality that we're all fucked, that the only grievance we should all have is on some level we're fucked and that there are people in our lives and in our cities that we don't know who are much more fucked than us but on some level we're all kind of responsible for the fucking and and that's it we all feel powerless in the face of things out of our control so how do we kind of meet our grievances in the middle like there's i don't think there's

any way to like what they used to call cross the aisle, but it's not, this isn't about politics anymore. There's no reaching out. People are just pissed off, feel powerlessness. And at the edge of it, you know, there is a crackling, there's an undoing, there's an impending sense of chaos and doom on a lot of levels, cultural level, social level, environmental level, and a disease level. So how do we go on thinking everything's going to be okay, or at least even honoring the patterns that we've grown used to in our lives? Now, I don't know if there's a way to get us all on the same grievance. It's really only a few and we all have them. And if we were able to come together and understand the righteous grievances, then amazing things could happen. Maybe, maybe at least a slight

corrective. But if everybody's like, no, fuck you. No, fuck you. Fuck this. Yeah, you show them. You show them. You're fucking wrong. You're fucking wrong. You don't know what the truth is. You don't know what the truth is. Where are you getting your information? Where are you getting your information? It's all fucking distraction. We're all just being puppeted by people that want us to fucking complain and argue as they fucking rape the world and turn out our goddamn desires to keep profits going. That sounded a little heavy handed, but but you but if you than acknowledging powerlessness, surrendering to the reality that we have and trying to figure out how to come together and fix it. That said, I did go to another guitar store and bought a beautiful Stratocaster, which is what I was looking for. I didn't break the bank.

I got a Relic. I got a nice one. I'd say that the purchase had, it was about 20% spite against the first guitar shop. The place I did get the guitar is Thunder Road Guitars in Seattle, who were very nice to me. And I was, look, I don't need another guitar. I'm fortunate to be able to get one. I'm not a great guitar player. I'm not a professional guitar player, but it is my hobby.

And it really is. It's really the only hobby I have. And now my life is complete and everything is good. That's my birthday present to me. Thank you, Mark. BJ Novak and I try to bridge the gap. The premise, his new show is streaming now on FX on Hulu with new episodes every Thursday. And this is us, well, me, trying to make things right. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air.

This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series,

streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. So it's like a 50s house, pipe burst. Yeah. I don't understand. You think that plumbing is simple. It's not simple. I never thought it was simple.

Never? No. Huh. It looks not simple. I never thought it was simple. Never? No. Huh. It looks complex to me. I have no aptitude for understanding. That? No, I don't. You do.

I can tell. Why do you think that? I think you have a sense of mechanics just looking around the room. Guitars, anyone who likes guitars likes gear. They like how things work. But I get a lot of the guitars for free. I'm not a gear nerd. No, look at you.

I'm not flexing. It sounds a little flexy, but you deserve it. What I'm doing is I'm trying to prove to you that I'm not a gearhead. I don't know, I don't know half about,

I don't know much about any of this shit. Okay. But I can, I can work a tool. You're telling me you can't do a tool? I can do like a wrench.

Right, a wrench. So you can put together an Ikea thing, right? I don't even like props as an actor. I'm like, I can't a tool. You're telling me you can't do a tool? I can do like a wrench. Right, a wrench. So you can put together an Ikea thing, right? I don't even like props as an actor. I'm like, I can't hold this pen. Well, that's terrible. Eating pens, terrible. Yeah, terrible. Because then you're worried about continuity.

It's all of a sudden your issue. I worked with James Spader once, and he is from an acting school where it's all about the props. He would walk through scenes like, all right, so I'll put the pen down here, and then I'll pick up the cup of coffee here, and then I'll finally touch the doorknob and out. That's how he plans a scene.

I think it's a school, yeah. I don't know if it's a school. I think it's how guys who've been doing it a long time keep it interesting. Because I worked with Eric Stoltz on my show and he really wanted to eat and it was a thing. He wanted to eat the salad. Like if you put food in front of me in a scene, I'm going to do everything I can not to be eating. I'll hold a fork. I'll act like I just swallowed something, but the chewing and eating, don't want to do it.

Let me talk and look around. Yeah, and maybe put a fork down. I'll put the fork down. Just finished. What am I doing here? What do you mean? Why'd you invite me? Because you got a show out. Oh, yeah, sure. But, like, Mark, come on. a fork down i'll put the fork down just finished um what am i doing here what do you mean why'd you invite me because you got a show out oh yeah sure but like mark come on well we know how you

feel about me well that was that's the old mark i don't know is it the old mark or kind of yeah for the most part i'm just i'm a fan i was just listening to um your interview just just fed you no i you know yeah sure i mean i'm not gonna not listen um but you were just saying like two two episodes ago like your first impression you never shake a first impression of somebody well i think what i know i've heard you i've heard you break open you know of course so i i believe what you're saying but i also believe like oh well i mean it but shaking a first impression and that first impression being reasonable or correct uh are two different things like if i can't shake something yet i know i'm wrong yeah i can live with that and i can i can adjust you can live with it but you never in my

experience i always i have a first instinct and then i i mentally can get way out of that but i always revert to my first instinct so i think you well maybe i'm just trying to figure it out today yeah well that's why i'm here no to figure something out no absolutely not okay you're like no i know how i feel uh the last time i saw you was on the porch of the comedy store i don't know what you were doing there but you were meeting someone there okay um and you came up to me or i came up to you and i said hey and you looked at me and said, you know, we're now cosmically connected. Yep. I do feel that. Yeah.

Because of me, my behavior. And I said, yes, I did that. I did that. And you said, okay, I don't remember what you said. Well, I'm in the Marinverse. You know what I mean? So I'm a character in the Marc Maron world. Your name comes up in every season.

Yes. In a derogatory way. You didn't watch the show, though, did you? I did not watch the show. I was told about the show, and it did not make me want to watch the show. But I thought it was good-hearted ribbing. It didn't sound vicious, no.

No, nasty. I think that most of what was going on in terms of my opinion of you early on, because I talked about it with my producer, because you did do a live WTF. Yep yep i don't think there was a problem i think we kind of got through some of the stuff i mean not enough here i am it was 12 minutes yeah yeah okay so what what bothered me initially about you yes i mean no point coming here without getting at this yeah getting real that's the whole fun.

Yeah, well, I can be real. It's so hot, though. Isn't it hot? Or am I just nervous? Am I nervous? You're making me nervous, Novak? I mean, I should be the nervous one. You're not nervous.

Yeah, I mean, this is like... I know this angle. You know, you're just going to turn it on me and... What? No, I've been thinking about this for a long time, but I'm not here to... Well, why don't you tell me, how has it made you feel? I mean, is it something that you think about? Like, what's Marc Maron's problem with me? Yeah, yeah, a little bit. But I also think, you know, you can't help but be self-conscious. And I think, yeah, you go through, I went through phases. And then I was happy, like, you know what, you put yourself out there. And that's the fun of it. Some people just don't like people. Some people like other people.

Sometimes there's a reason. Sometimes there's no reason. I feel that way about all kinds of people. We do? Yeah, sure. So you have problems with people for no reason that you talk about it. And then I change my mind.

Of course. But you did enough homework on listening to my show to know that at some point I said first impressions never go away. Yeah, recently. Recently? Yeah.

Do you listen to the podcast? I listen lot not always yeah yeah well i think the original problem was just you know basic jealousy resentment you know probably like because i think that on some level i've kind of had to put it into some perspective after watching five episodes of the premise five i watched all the ones that were available thank you yeah uh i bought a copy of your dad's book uh the uh the jewish uh humor book the the edited jewish humor book the big book of jewish humor the big book the big book of jewish humor yeah and uh i found it i don't know why maybe someone sent it to me but uh but that was your dad you grew up with that book yeah yeah that was an important book very important book book, yeah. In your family.

Yeah. Yeah. And in all Jewish families. It's almost in every- It's like the classic bar mitzvah gift. Yeah. Because it makes being Jewish kind of fun. Yeah.

You know? It's better than like the Torah. And then like I started watching the show, and in retrospect, I got a copy of the book right here. I brought it out just because I thought I wasn't going to bring it up in some sort of like, look at this, your dad. But it is your dad. And then I watched, did you write the episode, the butt plug episode?

Yes. Like that's like basically a Jewish joke. Yeah, I guess so. Structurally. Yeah, it's very structured. You could tell that story with that tag in like five minutes as a joke. Yeah. And then the game of this was how do you make it feel epic, right?

Sort of like the aristocrats of a one-liner. You did think of that when you were doing it? Yeah. I mean, I thought of sort of how would you add as much possible depth to something that simple? So was the, because like the entire, and I'll get back to my original opinion of you, entire and i'll get back to my original opinion of you but like because i did contextualize you in light of my experience with you before my judgment of you uh then and then you know your

output since so now i think after watching the premise and familiarizing myself with uh your children's book work and your short fiction and your brief period in stand-up some of your acting some of your directing stuff I mean I thought about you and I thought well what you know how am I going to to reckon with this with this guy in terms of my feelings about him what are they based on yes we are but what I want to know about the the premise the premise of the premise was to deal with topical issues that have some juice to them culturally in a way, a fictionalized sort of dramedy-ish kind of form.

Take a story, fly into it. Yeah. And sort of what Black Mirror does for tech. It feels Black Mirror, but not menacing. Yeah, I like Black Mirror, but this is more like, yeah, this is the comedy drama of real life. Yeah, I can feel the Black Mirror influence. But the person who made, I don't know who. Charlie Brooker.

Charlie Brooker? Yeah. Does he talk in front of each episode? No, but he does another show where he does talk. About that? No, he's also a host. I don't know why he doesn't host. I mean, I think that show makes.

The idea of hosting and having your face on the billboard, what was that? The billboard was not my call. But it's like Rod Sterling. It's not that try-like sound. Yeah, well, I did like... I liked the idea. It sounds like you don't. I liked the idea of hosting because I thought, well, let's... I like when Rod Sterling came on. I like when Hitchcock came on. I like the idea that there is someone showing you something. I didn't see, I didn't see any of those. Oh, you didn't see.

I saw the screeners. Got it. I was going to watch. They're very, very brief. I was going to watch. It just gives a little flavor character. The first one is on now. Yeah, the first two are on, yeah.

Oh, they are? Yeah, and by the time this airs, three. Yeah, I could have watched the talking. Yeah, you can. I could. Go back to it I don't think you'll like it why wouldn't I like it

well I mean maybe I'm overthinking our relationship it's a little funny I mean it's like 10 seconds yeah it's just like

hey guys here it is and I try to be a little funny or tease it a bit but it's really just to give some character well yeah well I mean how many did you write

you wrote all of them I wrote or co-wrote all of them yeah because I thought you got some real good acting out of people somehow. Yeah, thanks. I mean, Bernthal, that's probably as good as I've seen him. He's amazing.

But I also thought the guy that played in the butt plug guy, that guy was great. Yeah, he's amazing. Eric Lang. I don't know who. I think I've seen him around. He was in Escape from Dannemora, where he was amazing. And then Daniel Dae Kim, of course, is very... Yeah, he's great.

Yeah, he's great. So you got good actors. Great actors, yeah. And the guy who played Justin Bieber, I forget his name, is very. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, he's great. So you got good actors. Great actors, yeah. And the guy who played Justin Bieber, I forget his name. Lucas Hedges. He's great. Yeah. Yeah, that was good.

And the girl was in Lin's movies and Booksmart. Caitlin Deaver, yeah. Yeah, she's good. So a lot of good acting. Yeah. And the first episode about the white, the sort of liberal liberal fraud ish that's the first one that's social justice social justice sex tape yeah so you're thinking about this so how does the writing process start for you you're like well this is you know a hot topic i know people like this guy

i might be kind of like this guy you know how do we sort of uh unpack the the bullshit of that it goes the other direction for me i think what is funny and really yeah i think what is funny and then the only ideas that survive are the ones oh you could actually go a little deeper there so what's funny to me is what if you saw you know a police brutality racial incident on the in the deep background of your sex tape that was the original idea that you uh like you were one day you're. That was the original idea? Yeah. That's what you, like, one day you were like, okay. Well, the first idea was, what if, the first idea was, what if a guy had an affair,

filmed it, and then saw a ghost in it, like a supernatural ghost with a prophecy, but couldn't show it to anybody. Right. Because, like, he wasn't supposed to film it, he was cheating. Yeah. You know, basically, what the hell does he do with this prophecy and then it you know i was just talking about it with dan

mince actually um who helped out on my show did he you guys are still buddies oh yeah yeah really good friends did you go to school together at harvard yeah right uh so anyway he was the one who said well what if it's you know it was during all of that and then that you know that thought oh my god that's so rich all these characters who were the lawyers, who's the defendant, who's the guy. And then it became depth. But you remember me from the early days. I'm a one-liner guy. So it's basically what are the one-liners that could turn into that had depth.

And those are the ones that became episodes. I guess you're a one-liner guy. But it seems like there's almost something. I was. I was. As a comic. Yeah guy, but it seems like there's almost something. I was. I was. Right. As a comic. Yeah.

But not generally as a writer. Obviously, you've moved on from there. But there are intellectual conceits here. Yeah. Right? And a lot of that stuff, there's an exercise in these episodes. I think the cross-examination, the second cross-examination of the white liberal guy, you know,

that to, to deconstruct that personality, that, that was sort of a, an intellectual exercise. Yeah. And then, and then there was the,

the, when she goes for the valedictorian in that one, where she kind of lays out that thing for Ed Asner in the virtual reality, that is definitely, that's almost a term paper. Yeah. I mean, I like that kind of thing. that thing for Ed Asner in the virtual reality. That is definitely, that's almost a term paper. Yeah. I mean, I like that kind of thing. No, no, I do.

I'm just trying to get- No, no, but I'm saying like some people don't. I really do. I like Oscar Wilde. I like people that have things that get quoted that can be pulled out as pieces that can stand alone, that are jagged, that, you know, Team America, that famous scene with dicks and pussies and assholes like right to me that's the legacy of team america right it's not the team america is

a perfectly structured movie just it went for sure philosophical swings no no and i think for a half hour show that's kind of why i wanted to do these self-standing stories because for me it's sort of like not what's the meme of it but what what's the memorable part? Well, also, like even in the corporate kind of presentation of that guy. The butt plug. The butt plug. Yeah. That, you know, that was sort of satirizing that type of presentation to the point where, you know, it becomes convincing. Right. Well, that think of a context through which initially whatever his analysis was, despite the fact that they were uncomfortable with the butt plug initially, they could apply it to other corporate products.

Yes. By the end of it, they're like, well, maybe it's OK. What's a butt plug that could change the world? And I have to go out and write a presentation that convinces people like, yeah, that could be that. And you wrote that. Yeah. All of that. So what were you basing that on? Well, that, not to give away the episode, although certainly you could maybe see it coming, but that's the whole tension of the episode. No, I get it. But that presentation. Oh, the presentation?

Yeah. Did you like do research or did you watch other presentations? I did research to the extent of okay what are the numbers how could you justify this right oh right what how could it save lives those are real numbers yeah those are real numbers and so did you have to sit there how many lives could you save if it had a colonoscopy camera in the butt plug and if you could do this and that but were you pitching that around with people or that was just that was so low yeah i had a little help um a little help from a couple writers but that was basically me.

No one else is going to write butt plug like that, if I may. Well, that's sort of one of those ones where it's very much like Black Mirror in structure. Well, yes and no. In structure, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just like the title. Yeah. And then where are we going with this? Yeah, and how seriously can you take something like that?

And sort of the moral is the bullying business. Mm-hmm. Or the moral question, because both of these men can't escape it. Yes, yes. But it's got a double punch. Yes, it sort of does, yeah. Like, and the second punch sort of like, it diminishes a little bit the first punch. Because you're like-

Yes, correct. Yeah, both of them have these psychoses due to their trauma, in a sense bit the first punch. Yes, correct. Yeah, both of them have these psychoses due to their trauma, in a sense. Uh-huh. One of them does, yeah. Yeah. So after watching this and seeing these parts in the shows where you say they're memorable and they're philosophical, well, they are. But they're also things that your brain works on. So in looking at the arc of who you are and what my reaction to you initially was,

was just that this guy's a disciplined motherfucker who has an understanding of whatever his talent is. He knows its limitations to some degree, and he knows how to apply it to whatever it is that he wants to accomplish, and he will achieve those things. And to me, that is enviable and also makes me wonder, well, I mean, I knew you as a comic briefly. I think you, at the time, knew enough, not unlike many guys I started out with, that you didn't want to be a comic for life because it was not something you were going to be able to do and make the big money. I did at the time. Whatever I do, I commit to.

I mean, in retro, I don't think anyone thought I was going to be it forever. And I see what you see. Look back. But when I was in it, I was like, I got to be the best ever. I got to. But you were already writing television, I was like, I got to be the best ever. I got to. But you were already writing television. I was between. I was between that when I started.

So you got to be the best ever. Whatever I do, I start like that. And then. Yeah. Yeah. And you're written on your face. You're like, I don't know if I saw that in you. But you could be fine.

No, but I mean, I get it. But I'm just comparing you to me because that's all I can do because I'm like relatively narcissistic. Yeah. But I've gained some empathy over time. If I've gained anything, it's a broadening of my empathy. What were you going to ask me? Did you, and I think I know the answer. I think you vacillate knowing you between in your life, I'm the greatest and I'm the worst, right?

Well, no, I don't know that I ever think, like, I'm competitive. And I knew I wanted to be a great comic. I don't know that I would ever believe I'm the greatest. Oh, I never wanted to be the greatest. I'm like, I'm going to be great. Yeah, I do believe I've done good work and I'm somewhat underappreciated. I do believe I've done good work and I'm somewhat underappreciated. So that might be a problem between you and I, is that you do, at that time, okay work.

And it's overappreciated. Overappreciated. But I mean, I don't know why that is, do you? I think my work was good and on the path to very good. I think it was just more easily sellable. But what do you think, yeah, I mean, as a writer, you could say, okay, this guy writes tight jokes. Right.

As a persona, it's like, okay, you could plug him into whatever. Right. Yeah. But I guess my assumption, not unlike any other bitter old man who does comedy, because we talked about that time where I went on stage after you. We talked about it on the original podcast because I was sort of hung up

with it. And it was probably closer to, you know, because I watched you do your jokes. And then I went up there and just kind of riffed about something and killed. And you just came up to me and very earnestly said, how do you do that? I could never do that. Yeah.

Why couldn't you do that? Because I wasn't, my sort of struggle or path if it was towards empathy is towards letting go and opening up and being myself. That is what is very hard for me. So that is why my jokes and my act was so tightly written, so impersonal. It was how do i write the funniest

possible thing yeah and how do i say it as best i can and uh i did fine you know but what you i what i could never do and i'd like to be able to do someday is say here is me and i don't know what to make of this and what do you think and you still haven't been able to do that? I would like to try again and see. But not in stand-up, in anything. In anything. I think that I come out around the edges, and I think that a lot of creative people do.

Like my children's book is not personal, but it shows, oh, okay, there is some sort of meta-rebellion creativity in me that I didn't get in childhood. This is what I wish my parents had said when they read a kid's book. And so that is very me, but it's certainly not autobiographical. Did your dad write kids' books? My dad, no. Never did.

I think he might have written a manuscript for one once that he showed me. Is he still around? Yeah, yeah. So he was, he did the- He drove me here. No. No. He edited the big book of the Jewish humor.

He co-wrote a few autobiographies. Yeah. The Lee Iacocca one and Nancy Reagan and somebody else. Was he a Republican Jew? No. No. It was just a gig. He did a lot of liberals too, yeah.

I don't know. I didn't look at his resume. He worked with Tip O' resume he just he worked with tip o'neill i worked with george stephanopoulos yeah oh wow magic johnson yeah exciting for me yeah do you get to meet magic yeah how old were you when you met oh i was like 12 it was amazing the best yeah incredible they still live in new england my parents yeah yeah so what do you why why is it what were you doing you know How many siblings you got? Two younger brothers. How are they doing?

They're doing great. Yeah? They in show business? Yes. My middle brother is a composer for TV. Really? He did BoJack Horseman. Music?

Yeah. Did he go to Harvard? No. Oh. He got a job at BoJack Horseman? Yeah, he's the composer for it. That's amazing. Yeah.

Is he like Danny Elfman style? He worked on my show too. He did the Caitlin Deaver episode. Oh, he did? yeah caitlin deaver episode oh he did yep um all right so if you weren't what was it you were brought up with that would you know make you so compulsively kind of uh competitive and focused to the point where you are still hobbled in being able to be comfortable that is a great question i don't know my parents never understood it they did not put any pressure on me whatsoever i was like i'm going all the way they're like calm down going like going all the way they were the opposite like seven yeah oh

younger yeah like what do you what do you first remember i remember somebody i remember asking my dad he mentioned this a lot if a kid could win win the Nobel Prize, which he thought was hilarious. I meant it. I wanted to be an inventor. I wanted to be a billionaire. I wanted to be all kinds of things. Like whatever was sort of greatness. I just thought that was the only thing to do.

Right. And you don't remember. And I'm sure that there's a flip side. Like I felt I was nothing unless I did something huge. Like it always comes from that too, but I don't know what that side. Like I felt I was nothing unless I did something huge, you know? Right. Like it always comes from that too, but I don't know what that is. But you don't, did you have heroes at that age? Einstein.

So Einstein was your hero? Like whoever you could read a kid's book about. Yeah. You know, like who is dot, dot, dot. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All those people.

Einstein. The greats. Yeah. Einstein a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Did you go the math direction ever? I, you know, it's weird.

Like a chemical thing kicks in around puberty when you suddenly continue in math or you don't. And I didn't. You know what I mean? I was good at math as a kid. Yeah, you were good? Yeah, I was good in fifth grade. Right. And that was it.

Wasn't a prodigy. Yeah, yeah. And then like, you know, they say if you want to know if someone's a celebrity, ask them to fill out a form. Like there's just something that you can no longer do. Like I was just 14. I was like, I don't know, I don't fuck with math anymore. Yeah, why? I'll do it.

How are you going to impress anybody with math? Yeah, that's true. So you always had this compulsion to be the best, to be great, to be famous. Yeah. And to be known for inventing something. Yeah. So you think that one's going to happen? Invent don't know i don't know i'm now at the point where i'm trying to make sense of all this right well i guess that that children's book it's weird about children's

book that if you write a good one which you did it's forever yeah yeah like you'll be making money off of that and that is the purest thing i ever did i that that is one thing where i i wasn I, I wasn't like, how do I make a great children's book? I was like, oh my God, I know exactly what to read this three-year-old. I'm going to go home and write it. And it's going to crack them up. No, it's my friend's kid. Oh, it's your friend's kid. You experimented on your friend's kid. Well, don't phrase it like that. No, I know. But yeah, I would read him books and I was like, oh boy, I know what he's going to like. And I went home and wrote it. And then did you try it out on him? Yeah. Um, and he didn't actually like it, but at that and I was like, oh boy, I know what he's going to like. And I went home and wrote it. And then did you try it out on him? Yeah.

And he didn't actually like it. But at that point I was into it. I was like, oh no, this is going to work. He's just too young. Tell people what the conceited book is. The book with no pictures. And it's a book where the adult sort of breaks the fourth wall and it's like, what kind of book is this?

And then it makes the grownups say silly words and make fun of themselves and protest. But there's no pictures. There's no pictures. But the conceit is, I bet you think this book would be boring, but look what it's going to make me do. Right. And kids love it. Kids love it.

That's an amazing thing. That's how you didn't invent something. Yeah, well. Now, is this something you're going to do more of? I'd like to, but I guess I'm a little precious about that because I really do care a lot. I wouldn't just do it for money. I'd have to really-

To do another kid's book. Yeah. So you didn't do the first kid's book for money? No. You did it because you wanted to try to write a great children's book. I just honestly, it sounds so like a life lesson. I wanted to make children laugh, honestly. I thought it'd be the most fun thing in the world,

and I made more money on it than on anything else. And you're like, that's the lesson. Yeah. That's the lesson. How the, uh, how the short stories in the essays. So they did fine. Yeah. They totally did fine.

You happy with those? Yeah. Did you cram those? Like once you got the deal, did you write like 12? I books. No, no stories. Oh yeah. There's 64 stories in the book.

I wrote like 200. Yeah. Yeah. I just like 200. Yeah. Yeah. I just went on a tear. It was right after The Office. And I was like all brain like melted from like eight, nine years in a writer's room. And I just wanted to just write on my own every idea that I'd never expressed. So early on, so you're growing up with no pressure from your parents, but this amazing of uh ambition to be great right so when

you're when you're like in your teens what were you doing to uh to to try to figure that out when did you know it was going to be writing i was i was always good at writing and i never thought it was anything interesting you have a teacher that drove you there sure i mean i would just it was my natural thing as opposed to math but i thought it was like i didn't thought it was anything interesting. Do you have a teacher that drove you there? Sure. I mean, it was my natural thing as opposed to math, but I thought it was like, I didn't think it was anything interesting. What did you write that made you believe you were good? No, whatever.

I would goof off and write a funny essay. Oh, yeah? I don't know. Really? In high school? Sure. But I just thought, well, I like being funny, and here's this assignment.

But again, I didn't think it was cool or anything. Were you cool? No. I wasn't uncool. I always say, like, I sat, everyone's like, I sat in the front of the bus. I sat in the back of the bus. I sat in the middle of the bus. Most kids sit in the middle of the bus.

That's how buses are built. But I was like a normal, I don't know. I wasn't cool. I wasn't uncool. You could move through the groups. You were always funny. No, I couldn't because the cool kids wouldn't take me in. They wouldn't?

No. So then you weren't cool. I wasn't cool, but I wasn't uncool. You weren't a... I was just like, whatever. He's just a kid. Oh, yeah? He's kind of funny.

He's kind of awkward. I don't know. Oh, so that was it. So you weren't... Well, it's not binary, is it? Kind of. I didn't see it that way. Well, I mean, maybe it's not,

but I think that there is a middle zone. I was like, you can do your homework and find a party with weed now and then. Yeah. That's where I was. Right. But there is... I feel that there's a middle zone of people that are almost cool and can usually hang out with the cool kids once in a while. Yeah, sure.

That's middle to me. Is that what you were? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Yeah. But I would say I would characterize it more slightly without a sense of self and kind of desperate for friends. Yeah, that's me. I mean, I don't know.

That was my middle was that like I didn't care about jocks. And there were several different factions of cool kids. And I wasn't that big a druggie. But I found a crew of guys that I thought were, you know, that I really wanted to hang out with. And I tried very hard to do that. And I succeeded. Yeah. And you did that probably by being funny.

Yeah, funny. Yeah, for them. And annoying. Yeah, that's what I do. I could make the cool kids laugh sometimes. Yeah, sure. Yeah, and then you're sort of like, he's all right. Yeah, yeah.

And then there was a senior show at my high school that was like the, it was a big deal at the end of senior year. You write like a parody show. Yeah. And I remember like a genuinely show at my high school that was like the, it was a big deal at the end of senior year. You write like a parody show. Yeah. And I remember like a genuinely cool kid coming up to me in the cafeteria and saying, the word is you're the one to write the senior show. And I was like, oh, this is it. This is my calling.

Yeah. I'm the guy that's supposed to write funny things for the cool kids. Yeah. And that's what I've done ever since. And literally John Krasinski was in that high school class with me and starred in the show so he remembers yeah of course he remembers you guys were friends remember me yeah we're friendly yeah but like literally i've been like oh writing for the more popular kids like my whole life yeah but was he a cool kid he was a cool kid yeah yeah tall tall basketball player oh yeah but nice guy But nice guy? Yeah. In high school? Yeah. Really?

Not a dick? Nope. Were there dicks? Yeah. Okay. That's high school. No, everyone was lovely. Yeah.

But would you go to public school? Yeah, like a good public school. In Newton? Newton South, yeah. Yeah, Newton was that area. It's weird, too. Like, how Jewish? Because Boston Jews are different.

They're not the same as New Yorkers. Tell me. Yeah. I think they try? Because Boston Jews are different. They're not the same as New York Jews. Tell me. Yeah. I think they try to pass more somehow. Interesting. That there's a, like, maybe more of them are German Jews. Well, my father is Canadian. Oh, Canadian Jew from Montreal?

Good guess, Toronto. But that's its own thing. Yeah. And a female friend once said, oh, that's my dream, a Canadian Jew. Yeah. I said, why? She's like, it takes the edge off. It does. Yeah, it does. so a little bit of a proper well there's also like the weird thing between like

you know german jews and you know just standard ashkenaz jews like there's a peasant jew and then there's a german jew thing right and the german closer to peasant jew yeah yeah but i get it you look yeah you seem like that i mean you look kind of like a Jew. I'll take it. But the German Jews are like, they're- They're like wasps. Yes, exactly. So that wasn't what it was. It was a Canadian Jew. Yeah, they just immigrated through Canada.

Your mom too? No, Connecticut, like normal. Normal Jew? Jap girl. Jap girl. I've never said that, I guess. Stanford, Connecticut, you know. Yeah, I get it.

But originally from New York, her family, or always Connecticut kind of thing? She was from Stanford. I think her dad lived in Brooklyn. Did you know your grandparents? Before Romania or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah? So you had all the grandparents growing up?

No, I had a couple. Yeah. Yeah, and then lost them shortly after. And did you... How Jew-y was it for you? I mean, I grew up kosher home. I still... Kosher home?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's really Jew-y. Yeah, yeah. I mean... They still do? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's really Jew-y. Yeah, yeah. I mean- They still do it? Yeah.

No kidding. Yeah, I'm pretty Jewish. So you did Friday and Saturday on your bar mitzvah? I think, I don't- No, I did Saturday on the bar mitzvah. Oh, so you did- We weren't like Shomer Shabbos. But two sets of utensils.

That's not nothing. And do you- Oh, that's real. Yeah. Yeah. So your father was pretty religious? Yep. Still is, yeah. Yeah, still is. And do you- No, that's real. Yeah. Yeah. So your father was pretty religious? Yep. Still is, yeah.

Yeah, still is. And how do you feel about it? I'm somewhat religious too. Yeah? Yeah. Do you study Torah? No. I don't study Torah currently, no.

But have you? I mean, bar mitzvah, yeah, as a kid. But that's just it, huh? Mm-hmm. But you don't read, like, you know, if you look at your dad's... If you handed me a Hebrew book, I wouldn't dive in. No, but I mean, but just like philosophically, like, you know, you're doing a show now that deals philosophically with issues. And the way that, you know, you present, is it influenced in any way by, you know, your education around Judaism?

Oh, completely. It is? Yeah. How so? by you know your education around judaism oh completely it is yeah also well i think there's a structure of comedy that is very um you know how does the unlikely person outsmart somebody right what is sort of the unlikely twist that you could have seen coming if you had thought of it it's a very structured sense of comedy that i loved yeah growing up right yeah so who were your guys growing up well one that you know jonathan katz oh yeah was like a hero in our house oh did you did your folks know him yeah because he lived

in newton and he loomed very large he was a famous comedian and his show dr katz and he had this funny well when i worked with him he had the he had the guitar with the cassette bit where he would play um he would do the song i can can't remember what it was. He played, I don't remember if it was a guitar or bass, but he would do like a, to close, he would do a song that we all knew. And then, you know, like it would be his voice just doing it. It was like, you know, an old one, Save the Last Dance for Me or something weird like that.

Right. And he would just be singing it. And then out of nowhere, this background voice would happen. Yes, Oh I Know, yeah. Yeah, Oh I Know, that's it. Yeah. What song is that? Save the Last Dance for Me. It is. Yeah. Oh, I know. That's it. Yeah. What song is that? Save the Last Dance for Me.

It is. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that was, like, I used to work with him as a comic. Yeah. And you were on Dr. Katz. I was on Dr. Katz, maybe twice.

But, like, he was, like, not unlike me in that scene. And, you know, it's kind of an anomaly because Boston Comedy was not in any way Jewish. Really? Not really. Stephen Wright? He's not Jewish. Is he? Stephen Wright? Is he Jewish? I don't think he's Jewish. I assumed. I don't think so. Really? No. Okay. David Cross? Yeah, but that's after.

But like the core group of the guys who were working like the clubs in comedy, like Mike McDonald. Oh, that. Yeah, that Boston comedy. Then there's- Jimmy Tingle. Jimmy Tingle.

But he was one of the more sophisticated ones. Yes, he was the sophisticated because he had a theater show. Lenny Clark. Kenny Rogerson. Don Gavin. Kevin Knox. And who did the comedy connection? Joe Giannetti.

Hosted every- Well, there was one guy, Cisler. Okay. Rich Cisler, who passed away. Bob Seibel, I don't believe is a Jew. There were all these guys. It's a rough, yeah. Steve Sweeney.

Yes, that's the name I was looking for. Yes, yes, yes. Well, these are the guys that, you know, I started comedy opening for those guys on one-nighters. That's how it started for me. Okay. There was no alt clubs. And Cross, well well that's a

long story i used to we kind of i used to stay at his house all the time and we've had this is here this is a good okay a good problem there's somewhere with with with you in stand-up in a way where i have interviewed david cross two or three times since you know he became huge like i remember when he left for la with cross comedy which was an improv yeah a sketch group and i went on to go to new york to to pursue stand-up so he came here to do the group thing i went there and his stand-up was always abstract it was not it was hard sell when you go to dedham you know like he tells a story about playing jimmy's and dedham and a guy came up out of the audience and bit his ear.

But because of our background as comics, and I know him for years, and he's obviously done great things, much beyond stand-up, I've said to him, to his face, not thinking it was offensive, twice on the radio, who would have known that you would be the guy to get successful? Okay. And at some point, he just looked at me and goes, I knew. I knew. Yeah. And I'm like, but you have to feel you know, or why would you do it?

That's right. But in my mind, I just remember being on stage, off stage, waiting for him to finish opening at the front in Vermont, bombing, just going like, come on, come on in. Just bring me up. You don't have to stay up there. Isn't that sort of Larry David's trajectory too? He was that kind of comic? Sure, I think so. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. But I think he was a little more honest, sweet, dizzy. Because you will be hated by the crowd and you can bear it because you believe in yourself so much. But he would- That I could not do.

I think he, Larry, was actually angry at them, it seems. But David was doing something abstract. Oh, interesting. Okay. Like David was, you know, he would do these characters. I mean, he was definitely alienating them and he knew he would, but it was truly funny. You know, like he did all these different characters.

He would do very, you know, he would take real chances with, you know, he would go up on stage doing a gay voice for like 10 minutes. Okay. And go so over the top with it that people would start, you know, laughing. And he would stop and go, I don't know if you're laughing at me or you're laughing. And he really kind of took it. That's funny. It was more Kaufman-esque than just fuck you. I love that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. it. That's funny. It was more Kaufman-esque than just fuck you. I love that stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting. So John was a family friend. Cats. Yeah. Stars, yeah. And you guys, how's he doing?

He's doing good. Okay. Good, good, good. Yeah, he's lived with MS for so long. Yeah, he actually emailed me, I think. He emailed me complimenting me on something. It was very nice. He's always been a sweet guy.

Sent you a guitar? No, he didn't send me a guitar. Good friends with David Mamet, which is hard to understand sometimes. But you go back with people. As they change, sometimes you just tolerate it. But so how did he impact you? So you're saying that as you were a kid, the funny people that had an influence on you, John was one? Yeah.

Well, he was a one-liner guy. Sure. And very written and structured. So I thought that's what comedy was. Yeah. And that was, but who'd you watch? Like who were your heroes? Mitch Hedberg was an early hero.

So those are the comics? Yeah, one-liner people blew me away. Rodney? I was too young to get Rodney. Now I do. Yeah. Yeah, but I didn't get Norm MacDonald. Obviously timely.

But yeah, the people you see on SNL. How old are you now? I'm 42. Oh, so you're getting up there. Yeah. You're a grown person. I'm no kid, yeah. So I like the jewish idea like i used

to like i i wrote a bit about you know when you read jewish literature you read biblical tales or you read the bible in general that i i think the line i wrote was in in christianity the wages of sin are is death and in judaism the wages of sin are negotiable uh-huh that there seemed to be an ongoing conversation. Well, Simon Rich, you know him, one of my favorite comedy writers. He has a very sort of Judaically influenced, I think, sort of moral. It's funny, Judaism. Yeah.

Because you are always negotiating with God and it's so legalistic. Yes. You know, well, if you do this, but then that, if you think of it this way. Right. And that's funny. Yeah. It's funny to negotiate. Well, yeah, the back and forth is funny.

It's very logic based. But it's also a conversation with the explanations of behavior, of spirituality, of God, of what's right and wrong. You know, it's just this ongoing kind of thing. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. But I assume that the Jewish tradition, like, I just find it kind of fascinating that this book that your dad wrote is sort of like, it's all over.

It covers everything. It covers, you know, like those Talmudic tales, Hasidic, you know, the Hasidic tales and one-liners. The Wise Men of Chalm. Yeah, and, you know, and also comics. Yeah. Like actual comics. Lenny Bruce. But no, but like, you know, like. Oh, comic strips. Yeah know like oh comic strips yeah yeah mad magazine isn't yeah yeah all kinds of things so i you

never your dad never sat you down and said you're funny they were always more concerned with your weird sort of unbridled they were concerned about me um my dad loved when i was a comedy writer did not like me being a performer i could tell never. Never said it, but didn't like it. Very un-Canadian. And he's a ghostwriter, so it's like the opposite of being invisible. He never wrote a nice novel? He wrote a little nonfiction. Yeah.

Yeah, but he didn't write a novel. And this nonfiction, did you read it? Well, his first book, and good for him, was about marijuana in 1980 called High Culture. And he was like he always donated to that cause before it was cool and i always like he liked the weed yeah a lot i didn't know that he was doing drugs quote unquote until i was much older you did but yeah he smoked weed every night of my life and i did not know even though he was a kaleidoscope collector among other things um and would just crack up watching cartoons with me at night or The

Simpsons or Seinfeld every night. Right. Ice cream and, you know, comedy. Yeah. It made him very happy. It still does. Yeah. But he didn't write that.

And then, you know, my parents, you know, when I did a prank or something, my dad would, my mom would be anxious. My dad would like it. But they did not think of me as- A funny kid? No, they thought I was funny. Sure. But they, you know know i don't yeah yeah

you don't think i think they thought that i would maybe get in trouble for that stuff you know like so so but they were like they were supportive and it seems pretty well grounded and not uh you know you know pushing you in any direction they were just sort of like you know whatever you want to do you do I guess so. They didn't seem that interested. They weren't. They're nice. They were very all over me, but they never were like, what are your plans or goals?

I would tell them goals and be like, calm down. Like they made my mom very nervous. Really? Uh-huh. Why? She's a very anxious person. Once I told her, can you believe Elon Musk is worth $20 billion? And she said, oh. I said, did you just get nervous worth 20 billion dollars yeah and she said oh i said

did you just get nervous he would lose it and she said i guess i did like she's just nervous about success or the responsibility of it i don't know they they did not like that i was so driven huh because they thought you but it wasn't because they they they were concerned my dad liked it more than my mom my mom was very anxious about it my dad yeah but they but it wasn't because they were concerned. My dad liked it more than my mom. My mom was very anxious about it. My dad, yeah. But were they concerned that you were going to come up against a problem that you seem to have, which is, can you be your comfortable, authentic self ever? They should have been, because I am. They weren't that enlightened.

They weren't separating that from ambition. They're like, if all you care about is success success then how are you going to know who you are my mom's biggest fear was that I would be weird and I remember I was in like kindergarten and I would walk around the play I still remember vividly walking around the playground thinking things and my mom said to me once she must have been tipped off what do you do during recess and I said I I go for a walk and I think about things and she looked so panicked and she said you do not do that at recess you play with the other kids I said I don't know how she said you go up to those kids and you say what are you

playing can I play with you and so I did and they said sure right and I played kickball from then on right like I never forgot. She was very nervous that I would be weird. You never forgot how nice it was to just walk and think about things? No, I still do it all the time. I never got to. Me too. Yeah.

Constantly. It's like it's the job in a way. Yeah, it's totally the job. But it's like it doesn't feel like a job. And then you go home and write down what you thought about. Exactly. Yeah, or you work something out and you're like, oh, that's the angle.

Yeah. That's my ideal. As you go for a walk, you think about, you let your something out and you're like oh that's uh that's the angle yeah that's my ideal as you go for a walk you think about you let your mind wander you come up with things and then you go home and write them and then it never feels like work but i get excited when i like i get like i don't read a lot of fiction because i i want my brain to be provoked and a lot of times fiction doesn't do that for me so like i just read some new douglas copeland thing that he wrote with some other people called The Extreme Self about, you know, technology's effect on our sense of self

and the sort of expansion of what we leave in the world through technology. So, like, for me, like, that coincides with some things I'm thinking about and trying to execute on stage, and then I get excited. So how do you stay out of just thought loops but i guess you have a project so like when you have to write seven shows ten no i obsess i obsess you do yeah it's a big problem

i obsess and part of the reason yeah like about what oh god like which story to choose which how to write everything i change my mind constantly i lose sleep over right a scene that doesn't matter and then i change it back and then i say can you, can you pull the edit of this episode? The scene should be different. And they're like, I, we can't unlock it. And I say, we got it. Like I'm constantly. Oh, really? Yeah. But see, I think the difference then, like, you know, I think I'm finding somewhat of a difference between you and me that would, obviously there were plenty and I'm not comparing yourself to me, but on some point, on some level I am. We've chosen a similar path, but I do something much different and make much less impact. So the idea for me, though, when I'm thinking about stuff, I really need to solve big problems that have to do with my understanding of the fucking world.

Whereas when you've created a world that you're servicing, at least you have a context that enables you. When you have a story, you're like, well, this is the puzzle. And this has an impact and it's informed by the bigger picture. But this is my story that I'm exploring. Yeah, but I'm still working out what if I'm just removing my – I'm doing the same thing you are, but I'm removing myself from it. I'm saying it's not what if this happened to me, what would I do? No, I get that. Yeah, yeah.

But that's the problem. But that's the problem. Isn't that the problem? With me? Yes. Well, yes and no. In a good way, it leads to a story that more people can grab onto. I guess.

Because if it's Jim and Pam, instead of you and your ex on The Office, like, okay, now you've kind of created something more universal. I get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But honestly, though. I can write for them. I can't write nearly as well about me and whoever I'm dating. But I'm assuming that, you know, when I watch those five episodes, that the only character

that seemed truly informed by maybe parts of who you really are was that guy on the stand. To me, the only person is Lola Kirk in The Commenter, the woman who is driven crazy by a single anonymous comment online. That's the one I felt was me. Okay. So politically and in terms of where you stand as a progressive. I'm not that progressive. I didn't relate to him that much. Okay.

So the commenter. So that's you. That's me. So, okay, that makes sense. Which is probably why I was obsessed with coming on your show. That makes sense, though, because that character, like, you know, I go through that. Yeah.

You know, like I, you know, and I, so those were, that's interesting. So that was a crisis for you. That, so that the plot of that is a woman who is getting constant and, and convincing positive feedback from everyone in her life. Yes. Gets one negative anonymous comment online and becomes obsessed with it and pulls that thread and gets more and more feedback that seems to be right.

And she starts to trust that only the commenter is honest with her and she throws away her life to pursue the commenter. Yes. That to me is my sort of fear and fantasy that someone out there is,

knows more and it was what drove me creatively when I was doing stand-up was that idea of the audience will know what to think of what I'm, they'll tell me if this joke works or doesn't, or if they are comfortable.

Well, you'll know immediately. You'll know immediately. I get it. And they're right. Sure. And I do think that a better level to be at as a comic is, I don't know, everyone's probably a different set point is, and I think, you know, Larry David and David Cross might be the other extreme of, I know what I think is funny. And I don't give a fuck what you think.

Well, at some point you have to get there. And I think you've gotten there to some degree. Well, this show is very much like this is what I think. Yeah. It's not as a stand up. But I mean, at some point you have to do in order to survive. And you have to at least believe that what you're doing is is is well i the job i remember one comment you said about me online that was very funny and i liked it uh was i said they say the

biggest risk to take is no risk at all so i'm gonna take i'm gonna be like a you know boldest motherfucker out there and take no risks and And you said, seems to be working out for you. And I was like, damn, that is a very good burn. That is a very good burn. I get that. And yeah, so now I am. So now I am. This show definitely does, you know.

Well, that's good. Well, I think it's interesting that thing because I'm trying to figure out what my experience with being trolled is. And I did an episode of Marin that was actually about me pursuing a guy named Dragon Master to a Dungeons and Dragons game and figuring out where that guy was to ask him why does he keep doing this to me.

And basically he was just like, I don't like you. It wasn't as thoughtful and sort of... But it was more personal or more directly personal. It was. It was based on a real thing. But it was more personal or more directly personal uh it was it was based on a real thing but it was a similar experience where a guy just went was relentless about you know some of my comedy and and was picking it apart uh on on a a comment board you know and just accusing me of all these things and it was really killing me and because it resonated? Well, yeah, but your insecurity is genuine, but it doesn't mean that those voices are correct.

The voices that you have inside of yourself that say you suck, that's not credible necessarily. It's just part of your fucking engine. But then when someone else says it, you're like, that's what I was thinking. Well, yeah, but then I'm sure some some people told you but how come you don't pay attention all the good ones yeah yeah yeah yeah do you know what i mean yeah you know so i i you know i try to figure out what the fundamental issue in me around that stuff was and i've i've done some research and i've got a working model of what that is. I could tell you what that is, but I don't know if it resonates with your life.

My, well, I got it from a guy named Robert Firestone who wrote a book called The Fantasy Bond. emotionally negligent or maybe emotionally abusive, which mine weren't, but negligent, sure, where you're sort of left to your own devices because they were not the nurturing type or necessarily equipped to be selfless enough to properly parent or let you develop your own sense of self or you become an extension of their panic or whatever. The idea was that if you feel uncomfortable as a kid, and it's because of your parents' emotional position in your life, you're not going to know that. So if you feel awkward as a kid, you can't blame them because they're your parents. They're the best.

So you're going to blame you. So then the voice you put inside your head at a very young age is, you're not good enough. You're not smart enough. You're not smart enough. You're not this enough. Because that's the parents you invented because your parents clearly can't be to blame. So it must be you. And that voice stays there.

That was mind-blowing to me. Yeah. Does that affect you at all? I don't. I think mine must be so subtle. Really? Yeah. How subtle is it?

I've read your book. I know how dramatic your childhood was compared to mine. I did not have a dramatic childhood, and yet I do have all these issues. I don't know if it's dramatic. They were just self-involved. Your dad's a dramatic character. Yeah, I guess so. My dad's a very undramatic character.

But that could do it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, is you can put anything on anything. He wasn't dramatic enough. You've just got the boring version of it. Honestly. The boring version do it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, is you can put anything on anything. Well, I know. He wasn't dramatic enough. You've just got the boring version of it. Honestly. The boring version of emotional neglect. Yes, I had a therapist, and I said, I can't complain. My dad has a great subtle sense of humor, and I said, my dad, he always reminded me

of David Letterman. And he said, but you wanted Jimmy Fallon. I was like, I wanted Jimmy Fallon. I wanted like a rousing. Letterman is one of the- I love Letterman. I know, but he's- And I love my dad.

But he's one of the most emotionally crippled public people in the world. That's interesting. I never connected that. I mean, the more we hear from Letterman, you're like, oh my God. Yeah. You know, he was like holding things pretty tight, man. Yep. Yep. That's true. I don't know what my dad has. In there?

That he's held in his Canadian reserve. Canadian Jewish. Yeah, but I get it. But I mean, you know, you haven't thoroughly investigated this. It's not pressing enough for you to honor your authenticity and your ability to be comfortable in your own fucking self. Yeah, no, you're right. It's my new number one priority.

What, starting now? Starting this Rosh Hashanah. It's been on my mind, yeah. I'd like to figure it out. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because like that whole thing, I mean...

Well, because I'd like to be more honest, you know. What is it? I don't know. I'd like to be happier. Would you though? Yeah. Yeah. I'd like, would you go? Yeah. Yeah.

I also think, and this is also very convenient logic. I think I'm much more productive and creative when I'm happy. That is where I get all my best. So you've been happy. I've been happy. Yeah. I go in and out when I'm happy. I'm better.

I don't know. A lot of people feel more inspired when they're miserable. I don't. Yeah. I, I like, I don't think it's a people feel more inspired when they're miserable. I don't yeah, I Like I don't think it's a choice like, you know That whole sort of paradigm of like you're just miserable because you think it makes you more creative Like I don't choose to do whatever the fuck my brain is doing, you know, I've gone periods where I don't know if I've been happy But I've been more self accepting, you know, and I have peace of mind

Yeah, and I'm not you know freaking out about something I'm not, you know, freaking out about something. And then you're just honest about that and funny about that. Yeah, I try to be. You just react to wherever you are. Yeah, I know. But it doesn't, you know, people don't necessarily feel safe as an audience with that, which I think I'm gathering is another difference in terms of, you know, why I see that maybe we have something in common. in terms of why I see that maybe we have something in common, yet however you've managed your life enables you to have a lot more of your shit together than I ever did.

And again, I'm older than you, and we are totally different people, but the truth is, because I'm primarily a stand-up and now an actor, and I do the podcast, it's like when I just did five shows in St. Louis because I'm trying to put together a new hour. And, you know, during the late shows,

I do clubs, you know, so I can do the work to build it out. And the only way I can do the work is to improvise. So second show, when it gets weird and I'm bored with myself and I start talking very personally about my girlfriend's tragic death or my fucking parents,

you know, I realized like, you know, is this entertainment? I don't know, but it's what I do. So I don't think that I'm for everybody, obviously, but I don't think that I ever was.

There was never a safety wall. How between me, when did you know you weren't for everybody? Cause I just found it out about myself. Yeah. But the thing is you're for enough people in a general way. I mean, you have parents who have kids that love your book. You have, you know, short fiction that's sold very well.

So you're of an ilk of people that you're not. Can be more generally crowd pleasing is what you're saying. Not just crowd pleasing, but of a way. You know, like I relate to that guy. You know, I'd like to meet him. He doesn't scare me. Yeah. I'm sure that in your life, no matter how many relationships you've been in, the women you've been with aren't going like, yeah, he's a very scary man.

I don't know. Yeah. There's some, you know. I mean, things can hide behind subtlety. You're looking at me like, oh, I see it. I see it right now. The anger? No, not anger, but just crazy.

Yeah, whatever. Insecure, jealous. I thought for many years, I'm the one. I'm like Jerry Seinfeld. I'm the one who is not fucked up. I'm the one who's just funny and smart. Did you listen to his interview with me? Yeah.

He couldn't be more fucked up. There's no one more fucked up than Jerry Seinfeld. There you go. Mulaney, it's always who you least expect. Mulaney was the most normal guy. Now you're like, oh That guy, there's no one more fucked up than Jerry Seinfeld. There you go. It's always Mulaney. It's always who you least expect. Mulaney was the most normal guy. Now you're like, oh, okay, that's what you meant. Yeah, but when I met him, I'm like, what's going on in there?

Same with you. Same with Seinfeld? Well, yeah. Same with you. By the way, I'm relieved. I want some of that to come out. What are you going to do? How are you going to do it?

I'm doing therapy. I resolved on this show. Have you started doing stand-up again? I'd like to. I want to. But you're laughing at show. Have you started doing stand-up again? I'd like to. I want to. But you're laughing at me. Are you going to do a one-bed show? Like Neil Brennan at the Cherry Lane?

I want to, and I think I will. Neil Brennan's very self-actualized and self-aware. Yeah, he's gotten there. But he was very depressed for a long time. But depressed, but also like, you know, he's able to track, you know, so much of his issues to, you know, a fairly alcoholic family. And there was, you know, definitely kind of general groups of a certain type of recovery that were available to him for him to process. Yeah. A lot of that stuff.

But I think, yeah, I would like to go do it again, but I would want to do something very different. And so that's another motivation to sort of find who I really am. But, you know, Jerry doesn't think he's fucked up.'s what and i didn't either is what i'm saying you know you know but he still doesn't i don't know if i know it you know like i mean like again the the well i know it about me but with jerry like my belief about what comedy is and what it can do is very different than his but what you did see in him was you know know, emotionally he's wrapped very tight. Yeah. And that, you know, there is a certain amount of darkness there.

And you can track it in that interview. The guy was brought up by two orphans. Yeah. That was insane to learn. That's like a parody of, yeah. Neither one of them were parented. And how do you know how to be parent? So, like, he's, like, left to his own devices.

Right. To put himself together. And that's who he becomes the most put together comic ever so what happened to you well I don't know what do you mean

stop it I don't know what happened to me come on you're a smart guy you thought about it when it bursts out I'll be the greatest comic do you ever cry yeah

about what oh man I don't know all kinds of things yeah you don't buy it do you cry I mean yeah I'm about to cry now you're an emotional person Oh, man. I don't know. All kinds of things. Yeah. You don't buy it. Do you cry?

I mean, yeah. Yeah, I'm about to cry now. Maybe you just don't want to, man. Maybe, like, you know. I do. What do I keep saying? I don't know. But I'm happy to say I don't want to. But see, I knew with Mulaney only because he'd been sober so goddamn long since he was

like a kid. Right. And he's another guy. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. like a kid. Right. And, you know, he's another guy, you know, hyper achiever, you know, tight, you know, control, freaky guy in a way, you know, in terms of his work. Like, you know, apparently he's processing all this stuff on stage because now his fucking life is public because he's a big enough celebrity to draw that kind of attention.

So now he has to reckon with it in his jokes. But he always kind of did. But he always had sort of a patter that hid the darkness. Yeah. You know, that there was that sort of, you know, this kind of almost 1940s talk that hid the real darkness of what he was talking about. But it was always sort of there. Right.

And Seinfeld, too. Seinfeld, you know, even his sort of most easygoing stuff has a lot of sort of bitterness turned into affability. I think so. Yes. Which is a great weapon of it i yeah and there's larry david powering the tv show along with them yeah well yeah that makes it's a great combination yeah so all right so this show what would someone said you were in my hometown was it for this show it was for the movie i shot and what's the vengeance i was in albuquerque. Yeah. When's that coming out?

You say that like that's never coming out? No. I'm saying that this is just another thing you've done. You never stopped working, it seems. And I don't know why I'm spiteful about that. There's this part of me that's like, when are you going to just relax and figure out who the fuck you are so we can all assess you properly? Yes.

No, I need to do that. I need to do that. No, you don't I need to do that. I need to do that. No, you don't. Yeah, I do. You never have to. You have to do that. For yourself? Yeah, for myself.

By the way, I lived at Odenkirk's house. I know. The other day, I turn on my HBO Max, and there's an Odenkirk account. So he's using my HBO Max. Oh, is he? The fucker. Oh, why not? No, I was honored.

I loved it. He bought that house from a guy I grew up with. Oh, cool. What was I going to say? Oh, the other issue was, I think that what people criticize you about, specifically me and Andy Kenway. Yes. I was like, yes. Is that, you know, you got a golden ticket.

Right. Out of Harvard. Right. Because you did the whole thing, right? You did the Lampoon. You did the Hasty Pudding or whatever. I did the Lampoon, yeah. And what was the other silly show? I didn't do that, the Hasty Pudding.

I didn't do that. Isn't there another one? That's the one. That's the one? Yeah. So you did the Lampoon, which I visited. It's so weird. They had me come over to, you know, give me the prize, but I don't drink or nothing, which seemed to disappoint them.

So, but they invite me over to do that ceremony there. And I'm like, these guys are fucking kids. This, what is this? Yeah. It's amazing. But it'd become mythic in my head. It is mythic. Look, oh, you're saying they were just kids.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that building and those ceremonies, it's crazy. Yeah, I don't know much about them other than the one where they give the guy the thing. And I think that everybody was disappointed. Okay. I don't think they were that excited. Yeah, and they, you know, because usually they want a drink or you got to. Yeah, but they knew that about you.

I guess. I don't know, man. So what's so amazing about it? I mean, if you didn't respond to it or respond to it it's just well no i like the lampoon i like it yeah it's this psychotic thing this or this castle built by an insane person on an island in harvard square yeah where 18 year olds yeah at harvard yeah go in any direction they want instead devote their lives to the most um esoteric comedy and anti-comedy to make each other laugh i mean it's this insane system that is so to me to i understand the

privilege that i a come from and look like i come from yeah but to mitigate it yeah it was fucking hard to get into harvard it was fucking hard to go through that lampoon it makes you nuts yeah you know and um and so that is that's its own thing i'm not saying that andy kindler is wrong that i got a golden ticket but like in my mind it's like dude i worked so like i heard that conan was in the lampoon i was like i gotta i gotta get into harvard and go to lampoon you know so but that was the thing is that you always put the work into get there. That, you know, those of us who, you know, like I. But it would be also fun to like, you know, have fun along the way. But you did not. No.

I mean, I liked what I was doing. The Lampoon was fun, though. You seemed to get excited about it. Yeah. It's a fascinating thing. Fun? No? No fun.

It's a lot of fun and a lot of like, a lot of spiraling about what the hell is this thing? Oh, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. So when you're... You have dreams about it for the rest of your life if you're in it. Really?

Yeah. This sounds traumatic. Yeah, I think it's probably not that it's nearly as important because it's the most irrelevant thing in the world, but like SNL, people that are on SNL. Right, I get it. They dream about it for years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just this weird high pressure thing but isn't there like sort of like isn't there uh a kind of uh did did you doesn't i've talked to other people about this and i you know i i wish i

had more discipline as a kid and could have gotten into harvard but i did not but nonetheless isn't there some sort of older boys network that kind of functions in Hollywood? Is that a myth that when you come out of Hollywood, if you did well at the Lampoon or if you have a reputation within these circles, aren't there people that are like, you should check out this kid Novak. He's writing a thing. So Greg Daniels knew about you from somebody else. Yeah. Boop. Yes.

As Andy Kindler would say. Yes uh-huh that said I get it being on the other side of it it's like okay these people were literally trained it's like a pre-professional program in comedy yes for like a students and you have your own show and you're freaking out right and you're like I have five slots. I have seven slots. Okay, who do you know? So I get it. So you got a shot because you did the work, but the work that you did is seen, mistakenly so perhaps, as privileged.

Mistakenly a little bit, and a little bit totally true. Yeah, of course. I also, look, I grew up in the kind of like healthy suburban yeah like book-filled house right right that that was a very reasonable does that even exist anymore anymore is it going to even exist anymore no i don't think it does because i think that you know when i was growing up you picture like oh ames iowa yeah you know any town you haven't heard of you assume is idyllic now any town you haven't heard of, you assume is idyllic. Now, any town you haven't heard of, you assume is like a methed out wasteland.

Or you assume it's an option. What do you mean? That people are leaving for those towns, dude. I was just in St. Louis, man. Oh. And, you know, people, cost of living's cheap. It's sort of on the- Right, yeah.

Now it's evening out again. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of on the up and up. Yeah. You know, they're renovating. There's, you know, I mean, you know, gent mean, gentrifying, whatever your opinions about that are. Right, right.

But I mean, a lot of these places, like, well, Vermont's not a meth hole, but I mean, I've been- No, are you kidding? Vermont is the biggest heroin problem in the country. Heroin's different. Well- It's a slower situation. But it's a problem along the lines of meth.

Yeah. But I'm saying that a lot of these non-coastal cities that have a good cost of living and some urban infrastructure are appealing to people. Yeah. I mean, this place is like, I think it's all going to be on fire soon. Right. And whatever's going on in the East Coast, it's going to be water involved. Well, it was the first time recently I heard someone say, we're going to leave for fire season. Yeah, no, I did a bit about that in my last special. Oh, really? Yeah, that, you know,

like it's a little early this year, fire. No, no, no, for sure. But anyways, just to reconfigure your sense of Ames, Iowa. Yeah. Isn't that where the University of Iowa is? Yeah, yeah, that's why it was in my mind, yeah. No, that's Iowa City. But Ames has a big university there. Iowa City. Iowa City is the famous writers thing. Yeah, Iowa City is idyllic for sure. Well, I'm going to Bloomington, Indiana next week. I haven't been everywhere.

And Bloomington itself, the college town, is kind of interesting, but it's a little weird. But everything surrounding it is probably. Well, every college town in a red state, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know what happens to that life. I mean, you know, you caught the tail end of it, I think, your generation. Because the people I worshipped were probably, you know, of your father's generation or maybe a little older.

How old is he? He is 72. Yeah. Like that crew of intellectuals who sort of came up in the 70s. I mean, those are the guys that defined most of what we think is funny and it sounds like,

if anything, you got a good dose of that from growing up around it plus the whoever was appealing and more age alike to you. Yeah. Yeah.

But like, I don't know what happens now. I don't know where it all goes. Nobody knows, yeah. Everything's so fucking decentralized. And also, yeah, it's decentralized and what do you, I mean, I think stand-up is where it is right now. I don't know where it all goes. Nobody knows, yeah. Everything's so fucking decentralized. And also, yeah, it's decentralized. And what do you... I mean, I think stand-up is where it is right now.

Don't you think? Well, stand-ups become very tribalized. And unfortunately, what's being pushed culturally is provocative stand-up. And the enemy seems to be progressivism. So I don't know. Like this sort of anti-woke movement of stand-up is a little problematic. And I don't know that there's much pushback in any organized way against it. But it seemed to be taking up a lot of space.

The, you know, fuck you. You know, you can't censor me. But I mean as a form. As a form, like what is the ultimate thing to aspire to? Well, like, look, again. Now I think stand-up is bigger than movies. a form as a form like what is the ultimate thing to aspire to well i like look again now i think stand-up is bigger than movies i don't know no i don't know i i really don't know what everyone's taken in do you know i know nobody knows anymore that's it right there's no there's no cultural hierarchy anymore that's right yeah and that's that's i don't know what to do with that you

you're it no it's shifting no but you but you're the poster of what it is now. The beginning of whatever it is. But I mean, I don't know what to do with it because I don't know. But that's the thing. You don't do anything with it. I guess. You're it. But how many people are going to watch your show?

And is it going to be enough? Enough in terms of? I don't know. What are you hoping to you know glean from that you get an award or are you right concerned about you know like how many people are watching how do we find out i want all of that stuff but what what really is it is like that some teenager like i was will see that and always talk about it always think about it and i don't watch award shows but you're okay with one teenager no I want millions but like you know

but it's about I don't like to me the South Park guys are the ultimate right like you never see them at the fucking Emmys

they're not like they're not like directing a Marvel movie because it's status right they make South Park and everyone who sees South Park knows what the hell it is

they're at another level you know you don't think you could wrap your brain around directing a Marvel movie if you were asked uh no I couldn't but what if you they were like but you can bring your thing to it I just don't think you could wrap your brain around directing a Marvel movie if you were asked No, I couldn't but what if you they were like, but you can bring your thing to it

I just don't like Marvel movies me neither Yeah, but I mean, but if you thought like well, maybe I could do one but you push back against the more That would be just self-justification. I would I know yeah, I couldn't okay on that level I couldn't look man. I shit on Marvel, and I was in the Joker for two seconds. That's not a Marvel movie. Exactly. I could rationalize it. That's, yeah.

You could do DC. The King of Comedy version. That's cool. Right. So I would say, well, if it's like- Yeah, I did say that. It didn't hold. It was like the Mr. Show version of a Marvel movie.

And now I'm doing a voice for DC Super Pets, and people are like, this is the guy that doesn't like comic book movies. It's different. It's DC. Well, yeah, DC isn't Marvel. I have voices different. Yeah, sure. I would read the sides.

Yeah. You know. Yeah, play Lex Luthor for the dog versions of the superheroes. That's cool. All right, fine. Yeah, maybe. But, all right, so what's Vengeance about, dude? Vengeance, I play a podcaster, an aspiring podcaster.

Oh, so you're in it. I'm in it, yeah. And you wrote it. it yeah and directed it uh-huh what are you trying to prove man where's it like you've done everything so like where does this level off is it just that you want to keep doing everything and uh you know like you've done the acting you've done the writing you've done a little bit of stand-up you direct and now like you're hosting an anthology show where you talk at the beginning and write all of them. And now is this is this the drive to greatness? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's just but it's excitement. Like I take that walk and I'm like, oh, that would be a cool movie. And then this would happen. Then I do that. And then I do it like that. And then I try to make good on all those things. Yeah.

Come up with. OK. That's exciting. And your experience in getting opportunities to do these things is that your past opportunities have shown enough benefit or profit that you're given opportunities or that you seem totally capable of handling what you're asking for. Why do you get so many opportunities? I think, you know, some combination of willing it into being and looking like the kind of guy that wouldn't screw it up. Right. Now, movie about it's a podcaster podcaster uh kind of fuck

boy as it were um who a girl that he was casually hooking up with dies of an overdose in west texas and then he is uh the family yeah thought that they were very very serious relationship so he's kind of guilted into going to the funeral. When he's there, the brother, played by Boyd Holbrook, says, you know, we need to avenge her death. I call my podcast producer, played by Issa Rae, and say, I have a great story about this, you know, poor, devastated red state family that thinks they need vengeance for something. So it's sort of like this, you know, it's with Blumhouse. It's sort of like a red state, blue state podcast,

intellectual, like thriller. Yeah. It's fun. And it's all done. It's all shot. Yeah. I'm editing it now.

Yeah. And how's it come out? How's it look? I think it's great, but we'll see. And you don't have, you don't know the future of it. It will come out.

Right. But, but you know, nobody knows the future of any movie now what does that mean is it in theaters i know peacock i don't know yeah i don't know yeah how do you do and do people watch them but they won't tell you i don't know you know well look do you feel better about us i'm i'm kind of blown away yeah i'm looking you seem very open and vulnerable and true i don't know what you're going to say about me in the intro.

Do you feel like you've been open and vulnerable and true as much as you can? Yeah. I don't know what, I feel like I've lost this, part of me is sad. I'm like, oh no. So I'm okay with Mark. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, don't worry about that. Yeah.

So, but I mean, ultimately ultimately you're gonna have to come back when you have the catharsis that enables you to somehow connect your true self to something that's comfortable in the world yeah

yeah should we make a date should it be next Rosh Hashanah yeah okay fine it was good talking to you amazing BJ Novak. The premise is streaming now on FX on Hulu

with new episodes every Thursday. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour if you want to see where I'll be playing, where there are tickets available. That's getting harder to do. The Ridgefield Playhouse, that's November 11th, two days before my New York show. I believe there are tickets available for that. November 13th, New York Comedy Festival at Town Hall,

that might be sold out. I don't know. Go check. I should know these things. I don't. There is a music show happening that hasn't been announced. And yeah, that's where we're at. Let me play some mild metal for you now. I'm working on my metal. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey. Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. I know, man. I know that got sloppy at the end.

I know it got sloppy at the end. I know. I know it got sloppy at the end. Everybody gets sloppy at the end. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. We'll be right back. that's alcohol and we deliver that too along with your favorite restaurant food groceries and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details it's a night for the whole family be a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a

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