WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1269 - Taraji P. Henson

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

Taraji P. Henson says all her f***s are behind her now. But after three decades in show business, Taraji admits she only feels freedom from her f***s because of her openness around mental health. Taraji and Marc talk about the importance of coping with mental illness, as well as Taraji's work to encourage mental health awareness in the Black community. They also talk about her landmark performances, from Baby Boy to Empire to Hidden Figures, and how she dealt with getting pushed out of roles after being told that “Black doesn't sell.”  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it. I hope everyone is well. Are you well? I got to be honest with you, yesterday, it was beautiful weather. Makes a big difference. Got a little cooler. I mean, you know, Los Angeles, it's not going to be fall. There's not going to be any changing colors. I mean, cool is like high 60s. Cool in. is like New York in the spring. It's just nice.

It's kind of perfect weather. And it made me feel better. And I took a break yesterday. Yeah, man. I have just been beating the shit out of myself trying to reengage with the patterns of my life that are positive when I'm home after being on the road for so long. that are positive when I'm home after being on the road for so long, as I've mentioned before. Not that I'm looking for sympathy or deserve any for fighting, pushing back the pudge that I put on. But I don't know. Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe I'm getting old. Because I worked out pretty hard three times last week. I walked up, hiked that mountain three times. And by yesterday, Sunday, I was broken,

man. I was a broken man. All this effort I'm putting into making myself feel better is causing me physical pain that I refuse to acknowledge as being the cause. I mean, I went to an acupuncturist and I don't do that. But my Dan his wife Jen is uh acupuncturist and I'm like all right I'll try it man both my shoulders hurt my neck hurts my lower back is fucked my big toes are a mess and the shoulder thing is I it's all self-generated but I'll try it right i did i did and uh she did gua sha on me you ever had gua sha you know what gua sha is today on the show i talked to taraji p henson who i love who i love who doesn't love her oh my god uh baby boy is one of my favorite fucking movies. You may know her as Cookie from Empire or from Hustle and Flow or Hidden Figures. And Baby Boy, yeah, Baby Boy, fucking masterpiece.

She's also an advocate for mental health awareness. She started a foundation named after her father, the Boris Lawrence Henson Foundation, to focus on getting mental health resources to people with limited access to them. She has a show on Facebook Watch called Peace of Mind with Taraji that focuses on mental health issues, particularly within the black community. But I was just thrilled to talk to her because she's so great, great actress. And I had a fun time talking to her. And you'll hear that. So yeah, man uh i guess i'm getting old i'm 58 now but my shoulders are hurting because i don't and also i'm stubborn you know i'm it's weird i've had i've had massages in my life i've been to acupuncture once or twice in my life but i don't really consider it that much

i don't i don't know why that is uh in my mind you know i just don't i don't think these things are effective and they should be something you do with regularity i mean you know you can't put all of your pain in one basket but uh but you know you should try stuff i mean massage who wouldn't like to get a massage every week but i just don't do it and i guess i should do it because i need some fucking body work man i need some help but i got these horrible shoulder pains i think it's from i think i injured them when i shifted my exercise routine to include pull-ups and stuff and then i just irritated it by doing sort of poorly formed downward dogs and now it's like just kind of chronic shoulder pain

some days i think it's a heart attack some Some days I think, I don't know. A joint cancer, arthritis, whatever. But my energy is good. But I did. I went to see Jen. Jen Black. She's at, I think it's called Highland Holistics. And she's a great practitioner of these things, these Eastern ideas, the acupuncture.

She did the gua sha, gua sha, no cupping, gua sha. And she showed me, I don't understand Eastern medicine really. My first wife had a sickness that was pretty bad and very, it was a meningitis sickness. And in recovery from it, she went to an Eastern practitioner, a Chinese herbalist, and was on the tea, like hardcore, not powder, but like, you know, the bugs and roots and plants and things and the smell for like a year. things and uh the smell for like a year and there was part of me that's sort of like well i mean you know how are you going to know if anything's working if the prescription is do this for a year and we'll see how you feel i mean the body's a miraculous bit of business in terms of its uh regeneration and recuperation and recovery uh potential So how are you really going to say like, yeah, that stuff really changed my life after a year?

Don't know. Don't know if you can hinge it to that. So I've always been skeptical. I've done acupuncture before. I've gotten the tax in my ears. There's actually a TV appearance I did years ago, I think, on Paul Provenza's show, Comics Only, where I have the tax in my ears to quit smoking. I remember because Hicks was there shooting one.

I don't think we were on the same show together. But he's sitting there puffing away. And I told him I had the tacks in my ears. He goes, does that work? I'm like, I don't know. I guess we'll see. It didn't. But I got to try something.

Because the fear is there's ways to take care of yourself without getting cut right the idea is you go if i went to a orthopedic or a shoulder guy you know that two things could happen either you could say like you know well you ripped this or you did that you know don't exercise for two weeks or a month and i don't want to hear that because i want to keep exercising i'll keep hurting myself because i'm a fucking idiot. Or you'll hear, yeah, we're going to have to go in there and do an exploratory procedure. And then maybe a little surgery, a little cut in here, a little cut there. And then you're fucked. And then, like, at my age, you don't know if you ever recover from anything.

Like, I know guys got back surgery in their 60s. Regret it. But this is how I grew up. That's the the other problem i grew up with a western medical practitioner my father was an orthopedic surgeon and i grew up to believe that you know medicine and surgery and these guys mostly guys these surgeons and doctors who were his you know friends and co-workers where they knew how to fix people but they don't always. I think it's a brain-changing thing that kind of put it in my head. When I went, my dad wanted to go, he had to see how to do a procedure on a hip, I think.

So he had them line up a screening room at the hospital. That's how you had to do it back in the day. And I was a kid. He said, come with me to this movie I got to watch about this procedure. And I went to watch this movie with him about some surgical procedure. it was like hammers and saws and fucking i mean i couldn't fucking believe it they opened a guy up and they would pound and nails into him it looked like i'm like holy fuck this is crazy saws and hammers and drills but i guess you know you got to put pins in you got to put pins and whatever the fuck that

is but i got it in my head that this is the only way something extreme something pharmaceutical something surgical and obviously there's a different time zone a different pace and a different approach to eastern medicine and i'm open i'm you know i went because i don't you know i want to feel better i don't need to be in pain i my pain tolerance is kind of high but i need to be in pain so she did gua sha which is you know you take a stone or a metal kind of scraping thing and you just move it you scrape along these certain areas of pain and it ruptures uh blood vessels so you got these weird bruises all over and she did a little bit of uh bleeding me out you know a couple drops of of you know releasing some blood and did the uh the gua sha

and then you know did some needles and she said wait a couple days so i'm waiting a couple days and i got scars man i got the gua sha scars to show that I've been practiced upon the Eastern style. But I'm open to it. But I know in my heart, maybe I'll feel a little relief. Stuck some needles in my toe joints, one in my forehead, some of my fingers, I think. And I laid back for a while, meditated in the room. But I'll see. I'll see. I mean, I know I should just take a break for a month, but I can't because I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm comfortable at a certain weight. I'm comfortable with certain activities. And now that I've been going at it for so long and through all this last couple of years, the lockdown and the grief, like I've, you know, I've kind of grown used to

whatever happens to me when I exercise, whatever happens to my brain. But man, I was fucking exhausted yesterday after last week. Like painfully exhausted to the point of anger and hostility. And I did it to myself because I want to feel better. It's crazy. I cleaned the rain gutter. Yeah. I do the rain gutter. Yeah. I do things impulsively.

I know I've got things I've got to do, and some of them are big projects. And I got up there, and holy shit. It's just trickled rain. But I don't think the gutter on this building, the garage I'm in, has been cleaned in over a decade. Just like... It's very rewarding to get all dirty, get my nails all fucked up, my hands all fucked up. Very rewarding

to do the dirty work up on the ladder with the hands. Doing dirty work with your hands on a ladder. That makes you feel like you've achieved something. Huh? Huh?

Get the hose out. All right, so Taraji Henson, Taraji P. Henson, she has this second season of her Facebook Watch series, Peace of Mind with Taraji, premiering today. And you can see her in all her movies. But go look at this. It's at facebook.com slash watch to check it out.

And now I will talk to her. And it was a fun talk. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But

chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind.

A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote.

Zensurance, mind your business. Fuck. I'm very excited you're here. Thanks for having me. So you've been up since three. Yes. You're worn out. Not yet.

No, it's not yet. It's just a different time that I started my day. Isn't it crazy your show business? I slept earlier. It's really crazy, but I'm so used to it. I've been doing it so long. You have, right? Mm-hmm. But like,

when you get up at that hour, then all of a sudden, like, you know, you just start. No, I don't start until the camera and lights are on. Oh, so you're just kind of... I'm a limp noodle in the chair.

Until it all comes together, and they say, showtime. And that's it? Yes. I'm a huge fan. Like, I mean, I'm obviously a huge fan of you, but I never shut up about Baby Boy. I never shut up.

Really? Never shut up. Oh, my God. That's the first feature that I did in my career. Yeah. I think it's a masterpiece. Thank you. You hear that, John?

I wish he was still alive. Did you guys stay in touch the whole life? Oh, I mean, he gave me incredible advice. You know, I'm directing now, so I wish he, I just miss him. I just, I know he would be so proud. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. I think that Singleton was a great, great director. And I never hear, it's like a lot of attention gets to the Boys in the Hood movie, right? But like, I remember the first time I saw baby boy, I was like, does anyone know about this movie? Yeah. This movie is great.

You know, the thing about it is he wasn't interested in making a commercial film with that movie. No. What he wanted was a cult classic. He wanted something that people would watch over and over and over and over, no matter the year it came on. You know,

and he totally achieved that yeah so you know people that watch it like that oh my goodness bet plays it at least twice a month oh really like it's always so you get those weird checks for 14 yeah five dollars five dollars i got one for five cents one time hit the cup cup of coffee checks. Yeah, Uncle Sam still took three. So you guys stayed in touch for all that time? Because he was so amazing. Was he sick or did it just happen? I knew nothing. All I know is I got a call saying that he was in a coma and I lost it.

But, you know, I guess finally, you know, because men, you guys don't really talk about your health. I do. I never shut up about it. Yeah, but most men don't. I guess finally, you know, because men, you guys don't really talk about your health. I do. I never showed up about it. Yeah. But most men don't. I guess so. Trying to be strong. And there's nothing wrong with me.

Right. They have to pass out before they go to the doctors. Right. I'm not saying that was his case, but I know that we started finding out later that I think he had a stroke earlier. Oh, OK. And so there was blood hemorrhaging on the brain, and he was traveling, and that didn't help. Yeah, that's bad.

Like some people get those blood clots from just traveling too much. Exactly. Yeah. And he traveled a lot. Oh, yeah. Because John, if you knew John, he did the research that needed to be done. Right. So he's filming Snowfallfall and he had made a couple

trips to columbia wow to make sure he had it tonally right so that's a big trip yeah so when you did that movie i mean like that was the first big movie that you've been working i that well no i was working i was doing little specials uh special guest appearances on sitcoms. Oh, yeah. Like sitcoms or TVs or little dramas that lasted for a season. Yeah. What was that? Where did you grow up exactly? I grew up in Washington, D.C.

Right in it? Mm-hmm. When it was Chocolate City. Oh, yeah. Some things changed there. It's changed a bit. They put a lot of cream in the city. A lot of cream in that chocolate i tell you man i went there i went there during the trump administration it felt haunted

yeah it was a strange time gray city yeah just sad yeah very sad yeah um dc is a lively city it's a lot of culture there yeah you know there's a big huge Ethiopian culture there's a huge um Latin culture African yeah you know so the food is like Asian culture I think the best Chinese food is in DC yeah probably I've been to China and it wasn't great right you gotta go DC baby but but also like free museums yeah all that stuff culture lots of culture and history there so what and now what what was your family like i mean what did uh your folks do there they work for the government government yeah government most my dad was a um contractor he did metal fabricating oh yeah so he became homeless when when Reagan stepped in the office because they killed a lot of those independent contracts.

Oh, really? Yeah. So he had to live in a van. Is that true? Were they not together? No. He put them out. But your parents, they weren't together?

Oh, no. Oh, I thought you were making a joke about Ronald Reagan and my dad. No, they were not. They were divorced. They divorced when I was two. Because I was going to say together? Oh, no. Oh, I thought you were making a joke about Ronald Reagan and my dad. No, they were not. They were divorced. They divorced when I was two. Because I was going to say it. Yeah, yeah. No, he was a single man.

Oh, and in a truck. Yeah, in a van. How old were you when he was in the truck? Well, because he loved pickup trucks. That's actually how I learned. I learned to drive in a pickup truck. Yeah. So I love having trucks.

How old were you when he was living in the van? I was in elementary school. I think I was like fifth or sixth grade. So you remember. Yeah, I remember. But I wasn't embarrassed because I had a dad. It didn't matter because he didn't make it an issue. He would always be like, things are going to change for me.

I'm going to get that house with the garage in the back. He fabricated metal and build things. And he did it. He got his Harley. Everything he said he was gonna do he did and so I would just live through his strength he taught me to not apologize for who you are doesn't matter where you started is where you finish oh you know yeah just gave me the confidence I needed to and helped me develop a tough skin to tackle Tinseltown well that, that's nice. I mean, it's nice that you had the support and that you had the inspiration.

And the story in and of itself from truck to garage, it's a good story. Yeah, exactly. My sister now has turned his garage into her perfumery because she makes candles and oils and scents. Well, what's the name of that company? Incense. Incense? Mm-hmm.

You like that? I see you have incense here. I do. I do. I like people that start those kind of companies where all of a sudden it's just sort of like, I'm making soap. Right.

I did it before I had a little company called Light My Fire. Yeah. Before my acting career took off. And that's how I made my money making candles making candles and um gift baskets of candles and what and you just add the smelly oil oil it was a whole process did you i got burned out pun intended but how does one learn to make candles i went to a um community college yeah school you know how they give those courses on the weekend?

Yeah, yeah. And I tried to take my son and get him involved in piano, but he banged his head on the keyboard and was like, I'm boring. So I wasn't one of those parents that made the child do anything. So while he was in that class, I was supposedly in my milk. It was salt, bath, salt, soap, and candle making class. Right. And I took well to the candle making. Yeah.

And instead of it becoming a hobby, it became a source of income. And it worked? It did. It worked. We had a great Christmas that year. My son had a great Christmas. I was able to pay my rent. But it's not a hobby anymore. I burned myself out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want to hate making candles. Exactly. And it was such a process that it would have been fun if it just stayed a hobby. I'd probably still be making candles now. Well, your sister's doing it. Yeah, exactly. And plus I buy them now. It's just like I have the money to buy the candles.

How's her business doing? She does a launch November 1st. Oh, that's a big deal. I'm very proud of her. And how about your relationship with your mom? How is that? Oh, my mom and I are close. She's in Florida.

They're both around still? Yes. Oh, that's amazing. My dad isn't. My dad passed in 06. Oh, okay. Yeah, but my mom is very much alive and very healthy in florida yes and she is a huge i mean such a huge supporter yeah me and my career i just remember when

speaking of baby boy i couldn't afford a net well i never had a nanny but i couldn't afford you know people to watch my son and i didn't trust everybody because he was so young and my mother literally would fly out and keep my son while I did all of the press tours all over and yeah you know when I booked person adventures I had to leave my well you know I had to live in New York while my son was still in school right and she left her whole life to come and be with him so I owe so much to my mom so and so your son gets along good too with too, with her. My family's close. We're a close-knit family. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah. So when did you start acting, though? My mom let my mom and dad and my family tell it as soon as I came out of the canal. Yeah. I've always been a rambunctious child. Yeah. I was an only child child yeah I was a I was the only child

so I was very creative I had a very creative imagination sure and my dad was just new to hone it he knew to he planted seeds in me

he told me I was gonna be one of the greatest actors of all time actually he told me I'd be the greatest actor of all time well you're one of them thank you I think so I would say so and um so you know he just spoke that into me he was like you're gonna go out to LA he was so exact you're gonna meet three people and I met three people I met man manager agent and a casting director next thing you know I had to quit my day job and I was acting.

So where'd you go to college? I went to Howard University. How was that experience? It was amazing. Yeah? Amazing. I think I've talked to only a couple people that have gone to Howard University.

And you studied acting there? Yes, I did. That's what my degree is in. And that was the undergraduate degree? Yes. Oh, wow. So you did four years acting. Yes, I did like four and a half because

i came in half of the year because i started as an electrical engineer my freshman year but that was a fluke yeah i didn't belong there the electrical engineering yeah i failed pre-calc what what what was the uh what was the idea there well because i didn't get accepted into the high school of fine arts so i thought that meant I couldn't act. So my dreams of becoming a movie star were dead. And then I was like, I was hanging out this really smart girl, Candace Dickens. We were really close in high school. And she was very smart young lady and mathematically wired, scientifically wired.

And so, you know, because we were hanging and she was like, well, I'm going to North Carolina A&T for electrical engineering. And I was like, well, yeah, I'll do that, too. Were you any good at math? I failed pre-calc. Oh, good. The class that preps you for all the math that you will endure. Yeah. You know, studying electrical engineering.

I failed pre-calc and I didn't try to either. I had a tutor i was really trying hard and i got an f and i never got an f in anything clearly i didn't belong so yeah i mean but you went anyways i went um but i was i found myself longing for the arts because i my um english class was in the fine arts building right and at the time only howard university and north and North Carolina A&T had a program where you could get an actual BFA. Right. In acting. In acting.

Right. And so I was there, but that's not what I was there for. So I remember even one time, because I had to pass the theater every time I went to my English class. Boy, was my face pressed up against it. My soul felt like it belonged there, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll never forget, I walked past, and they had an audition up on the board,

the bulletin board, and I was like, you should do it. And I told nobody that I was doing it. And I remember I was still on that stage, and I could not, the rejection was still ringing loudest in my ear. From not getting into the school? And my hands were shaking

and the thing that i could do naturally and i was told so much that i was so raw and good at it just raw my raw self without training i couldn't do it out of fear and so i i did the monologue though i got through it and i just remember i don't remember seeing anybody out there, the person who was auditioning, the casting person or whatever. I just, it was like I was numb. And I walked out of there and I never went back to check that bulletin board to see if I got a call back. Never? Never. Because you didn't feel good about what happened?

I just was afraid. Fear is, it can, it's stifling, you know, if you're allowed to take it over. I know. is it can is stifling you know if you're allowed to take it over i know and like you know what you do in relation to it because i i think there was a lot of points in my career where i i was afraid but i just kind of threw myself into it yeah and which is fine sometimes but sometimes you're guarded you know you know and you're angry because you're fighting the fear back yes yes right yes and it takes a long time to settle into yourself you don't know when the hell it's going to happen. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So what changed for you in terms of getting into the acting program? Well, I had to fall on my face. Like my father said, I remember calling him from North Carolina, Auntie, and I was crying. I was like, Dad, I felt I was so disappointed in myself because I'd never failed anything. And I literally really tried. The electrical engineer. I did and um I called it because you know my parents didn't have money really to send me to college so I felt like such a failure and I called

and I was crying I thought I was gonna be in trouble and he was like well that's what you needed to do you needed to fall flat on your face now get your ass back up here and roll in Howard and go to school for acting like you supposed to be doing. And because he was so brilliant. He wasn't one of those parents that told you what to do. He would give you two options. If you choose this, this could happen. If he chooses now, you make the choice and sit back and wait.

You know. Right. And and so it worked because i was very clear on going back into acting i was very clear and nothing could get in my way well you picked like the opposite of acting so like you know what i mean like so you would know i had i had to experience that you know what i mean i had to experience but it was like what was there it was it's kind of funny i would imagine in retrospect psychologically why you would pick something so devoid of passion that you, that you had, like, you know, right.

Just, it was almost like you needed to get hit in the head. I did. And my dad knew that. Cause when I said electrical engineer, he kind of looked like, yeah, okay, whatever. Wow. That must've been pretty awful six months yeah well you know it was a i was it was there was a lot going on i was a freshman in college away from home yeah so there was the excitement of that being on my own and but that f did not feel good that didn't feel yeah yeah i mean like

you know either you got it for numbers or you don't. Yeah. Because I tried. And then cut to this. See, this is how funny God is. Yeah. God clearly has a sense of humor. Sure. Then years later, I book Hidden Figures. Yeah, I know. And I have to play a mathematician.

I was laughing inside. Did any of that seem familiar to you? No. No. It still looked like a? No. No. It still looked like a foreign language. Yeah. But you pulled it off.

It was called acting. I know. Well, what did you do to get your brain into the head of that? Well, you know, okay, the funny thing is the scene where I explain the go, no go equation. Right. I had to rehearse that it was like choreography for me right because I had to get it in my skin so that I looked like on the day in the camera that I know exactly what I'm talking about right right right yeah yeah so even though I didn't understand it

fully yeah I had to look like I knew what I was talking about you know they're mathematicians and math geeks yeah wait looking like oh yeah yeah you know if anyone's gonna to be picky about how you present that's going to be them you don't want to you don't want to be uh shit on on the comment board of the math geeks exactly so but it's just important and we wanted to get it right historically yeah so um i remember they hired a mathematician to come and train me um but he started to like really teach me. I said, hey, my friend, it's not going to work. Just tell me when I say this, where is that in the equation? What do I point to? Because he was trying. I said, I'm

not going to learn it, baby. We tried this. We tried this years ago and it was an epic failure. I got an F. I got an F in this. I got an F when I tried. And he was so passionate and I was like, oh. He was like a math coach? Oh my god, yes. And he was so passionate. And I was like, oh. He was like a math coach? Oh, my God.

Yes. And he was so passionate. He really wanted me to get it. I was like, baby, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen, dear. But I will make you proud in this movie.

So I had them put a big dry erase board, a chalkboard. No, was it a dry erase? One of those boards. I had them put it in my condo. And every night I would rehearse that scene. Oh, so you would write those equations out. I would write the equations. Even without knowing.

Right, knowing what I was doing. Oh, so you just had to remember. Mm-hmm, had to remember. Well, that's challenging. As I'm saying it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that on the day, I could make it real. I could turn around and I could point to the places because I knew I didn't know exactly what I was talking about.

But I knew what I was talking about when I pointed. Right. Right. You knew. Right now, when I say this, I'm talking about this part of the equation. I have no idea what the equation is. Exactly. But I just see a bunch of alphabets and numbers.

Well, that was like a great performance by everybody. It's a really exciting movie. It was so incredible. Apparently, I mean, from what I everybody. It was a really exciting movie. It was so incredible. Apparently, from what I understand, they show it to kids now as an inspirational film. Absolutely. There's been an uptick in female coding. I like that. Yeah.

It's nice to be an inspiration. Listen. Right? We're all here to do this. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. And that director, you were supposed to work with him at another time, right? Yeah. Theodore Melfi. Ted. Ted. Yeah. Yeah. And that director, he like you were supposed to work with him in another time, right?

Yeah. Theodore Melfi, Ted. Ted. Yeah. I was supposed to work with him in St. Vincent. Right. Was that Bill Murray? Bill Murray and Melissa McCarthy.

And I was so because he we met in New York. You and Ted. Me and Ted. Yeah. This is when I was on Person of Interest. And I remember him bringing his storyboard. Yeah. And the character that he wanted me to play that, you know. Me and Ted. Yeah. This is when I was on Person of Interest and I remember him bringing his storyboard and the character that he wanted me to play that you know they draw the different scenes

and sequences and I kept looking at it and I was like, that looks like me. And he said, this is you. I wrote this role for you. Oh my God. Yeah. And it just didn't work out. Politics came into play. Yeah. You know, it's this thing called overseas money

that you have to get to finance a lot of these movies and if the studio feels like you're not a box office draw or they don't think

they can take your name overseas to the financiers to get any money then you don't get the job so but so that's the way you framed it I know that happens

but you don't think it was personal or race driven I think so because the character was written black yeah So that's the way you framed it. I know that happens, but you don't think it was personal or race driven? I think so, because the character was written black. Yeah. And then they changed it to a Russian, which changed the entire dynamic of the story he was trying to tell. Less funny. He was trying to tell the story of a modern, these three odd people and how they come together.

And how, you know, this son, this black kid, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. With this guy. you know what i mean with um with this this guy you know it was it just it was totally different now with um i mean not black kid because my character was pregnant right um but how this odd family came together she's a stripper too like you know what i mean and then taking care of melissa mccarthy's son and it's like, huh? Yeah. But that's, he wanted the, a modern family look. Yeah. Like something so off the wall, you know,

and. So did you, how do you bounce back from, at the moment, were you like, fuck. I had been getting that a lot. Yeah.

So I was used to it. Getting what exactly? Pushed out? Yeah. For white actresses? Yeah, and just saying that, you know,

black doesn't sell overseas or she's not a box office draw. I had been getting that a lot. I don't saying that um you know black doesn't sell overseas or she's not a box office draw i had been getting that a lot i don't like you know that on just on top of just doing the job that's like double the rejection yeah so you had to somehow find peace within that to continue i don't take no's you remember I got told no very early on. Yeah, right. So I just go with the flow. I know that at the time it's a no.

That doesn't mean it's a no forever. Yeah. Because look what happened. The gym was getting hidden figures. Yeah, right. I guess that, right. I get it. And also hustle and flow, all of them.

But what I'm saying is that by this point, Ted was like, you're not going no on this with her i get it you see what i mean yeah yeah it was almost like that had to happen so i just think everything happens for a reason i don't i don't fight it you kind of have to think that after a certain must yeah even if you don't believe because it is what it is i mean what you're gonna do fight it you hit the reverse button and go back and fix it you can't you have to. It is what it is. Yeah, either you're bitter or you move forward. That's all you can do. Because I have a hard time with the spirituality premise and with a sense of higher power or whatnot.

But I do know that there are tricks you got to play on your brain so you don't go into the darkness. Absolutely. Right? And I do believe that the universe is listening. You know what I mean? Like if you keep saying it's bad, it's bad, it's bad, well, guess what it's going to be? Bad.

Yeah, no one's going to want to hang around you. You have to change the narrative, right? You have to change. My father used to say this. It was so powerful, and I'll never, ever forget it. It's in my DNA now. Yeah. Get from around those who have your same problems

and get around those who have your solutions. Sitting in back of the class with johnny getting the f well maybe if you sit up front with nancy you'll get a's even though it makes you nervous right or you don't think you should be there that make you nervous because that's where change comes from i know you have to do the like if a role doesn't scare the shit out of me i don't want it yeah you know why why i'm not being transformed so how is the audience going to transform well i mean that's right but i mean theoretically with most roles there should be some transformation right right but if it doesn't scare you if it doesn't feel like you're being challenged yeah how are you challenging the audience i get it i get it if i read something i feel like i did that before yeah yeah no you know

it has to especially now I've been doing this and I've done a lot of characters you know what I mean and I think that's you know I'm sorry

I'm kind of going off I think that is what it was for what it is or was or whatever for Hollywood for me they didn't quite know what to do with a woman this attractive

playing characters right I don't think they were used to a black woman. Right. Well, that's easy to stereotype. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because every time I would do something,

they were like, that's it. That's what she's good at. Yeah. And then I'd flip the script. Right. And they'd go, hmm. Huh. They'd look at me like I was some weird enigma.

Yeah, a freak of nature. She has range. What is this? We thought she was just a one person. It's called trained. Yeah. And then don't judge me. I remember when I first got to Hollywood,

they kept saying I was edgy, this, she's urban is the word. They're like, well, I'm very urban. I grew up in the hood. But you can't judge me based on who I am. That's never going to change. Well, they want to put you in a box. You can't. My name doesn't fit in a box.

No, I know. There's three. There's three. You know what I'm saying? Like, come on. My name is different. Well, I mean, like, and the struggle to, it's not even a matter of proving yourself.

I mean, you want the opportunity to at least engage you. Exactly. And i imagine that different points in your career you're like i can't do this shit anymore i feel like that right now you know when you turn 50 all your fucks are behind you yeah yeah i you know i know um but yeah it's like but then it you know i started switching the narrative in my brain because i was like i I'm not going anywhere. My talent is to be reckoned with. I went to school for this. I can do. This is what I do. Yeah.

Right. So you can't keep telling me no. You can't keep telling a talent like this no. Right. And I'll never forget John Singleton put in the breakdown of Baby Boy. Yeah. New faces only. And I said, see, I didn't even know that i even had a shot

at it or whatever but i was like this could be my break yeah and that's what it was and so he's instilled that into me like as i'm producing and directing now i'm looking to discover new talent yeah you know jody i hate you jody i felt embarrassed in that film because I was like, this man has been following me. This is my life. It was just that young hood love, you know? It was so great. But what I love is that people of every race understood the term baby boy. Yeah.

It transcended color. Yeah. You know, everybody has a baby boy in their family. Sure, man. They got that uncle that won't leave the house he's still in the basement yeah yeah and he's on that bike yeah that big bike it was something else man it was it was it's like one of the best things being rames ever like oh my god he was amazing in that you know i get choked up thinking about it yeah it was deep and how did well how did uh like right after that hustle and flow came pretty much no right after that i did a show on lifetime called um the division with bonnie baddiel yannisa nancy mckinney you didn't have any problem with tv yeah oh right that's right right you didn't

care about tv movies didn't matter it didn't matter i knew i liked movies better but i was in the i wasn't in the position right at the time to say i can you want to work that money yeah yeah single mom and i ain't never seen that kind of money in my life i was like i remember when my manager and agent you know they play the game of the negotiating and they called me and said okay okay, you got to say no. We're going to say no to the $22,000 a week at an episode. I said, I almost passed out. I was like, we have to say no?

What do you mean? They was like, don't worry. This is how you play the game. I was so new. Right, right. It still makes me nervous, though. Are you sure you want to play this game? Oh my god

Are you sure I've never seen this kind of money? And so they were like just trust us and they actually only got it up to 25 But still still you have to muscle your way in well. That's how that's how they have fun. Yeah, yeah, right And if they fuck up, they're like yeah, we don't know what happened But thank God they didn't cuz I was whoo I'll never forget but going to the callback to that show my car wouldn't start I didn't have time to panic I was in LA I didn't know how you catch a cab but I just called the cab coming out Okay, so I got there and I meet Jon Hamm in the waiting room. And we're both going into the field.

He hasn't done much either at that point, right? No, not at all. Like we were newbies. Just a guy. God bless him. He was the only guy. He did it though, but he was raised by women. So he's good.

He's a good guy. Yeah, he was good. He fit right in. But yeah, and I just, I'll never forget because all I had under my belt was Baby Boy. I'll never, and you know,'ll never forget because all I had under my belt was Baby Boy. I'll never. And, you know, the couple of guest stars. Yeah. But I remember standing in the room full of white people in suits.

I was like, that's the world, right? I was like, oh, my God, they don't know me. They don't. Yeah. And I'm standing there. But at the same time, here I am. Yeah. Right.

And so they like something. something yeah and i'll never forget aaron lipstadt one of the producers he i loved him he's such an incredible fashionable guy yeah he stood up and said i loved your work in baby boy and i was like what you saw that he was like brilliant and i think he had all those white people watching baby boy that night yeah right right so they all knew yep so um and then that's what was next for me and then while while i was filming the division yeah i noticed that i couldn't do movies and i was stuck yeah and as an artist that's the worst thing you can do is make an artist feel stuck i talked to some people get stuck on that tv show you know god has been good to me though because

every time i wanted out i got out and you didn't have to get it it happened naturally happened naturally because john had already sent me hustle and flow and he was like i need you you gotta get off that show i don't know how to tell you but you need to get off this and i was like john they'll sue me i can't do that but see again this is the universe working to my good because um they couldn't sell the film right so while they were trying to sell it hustle and flow while they were trying to get why because there wasn't enough white people in it well no one wanted to touch a black pimp in a white hole what yeah yeah we haven't seen that i don't want to see that you know who's gonna ah you know and so

John he's just a rebel and he was like well we're gonna make this he put his house up for a second mortgage to raise the money

for this film yeah and because they couldn't get the film it kept pushing it off the date and so in that time

our show didn't get picked up and I was free and I was able to do Hustle and Flow. And that was a big one. That was a big one. Didn't get paid any money, but. Got the Oscar nomination, right? Got the Oscar nomination for the music.

Yeah. But what I love about John and Craig Brewer, the director, Craig called me because they just knew I would get that. Yeah. They knew they were like, you're going to get a nomination. They kept saying. Yeah. And it didn't happen. Whatever They knew. They were like, you're going to get a nomination. They kept saying it. And it didn't happen. Whatever. I wasn't expecting anything.

And I just remember Craig calling me. I'll never forget. My dad was on his deathbed at the same time. And you remember he was telling me, you're going to get an Oscar. He always thought I was going to get an Oscar for portraying Diana Ross because he used to always say, you're going to play Diana Ross. You're going to play Diana Ross. That was his personal obsession? Yep. Was it Diana Ross because he's always a year you gotta play Diana Ross that was his personal obsession yep was a Diana Ross yeah and people say I kind of look like her yeah I can see it I can see it yeah so that was his thing and so you know I'll never remember I'll

never forget calling him and I'm like dad well I didn't get the nomination, but the song got nominated. And he was like, yeah, you know, it's hard for us sometimes to be recognized for things that we do great. He said that. No, he was on his way out. He knew he was going to see anything else that I did. But what he wanted to see, he didn't even live to see me perform on this. Like he passed while we were about to go into rehearsals for the Oscars. Remember I sang? Oh, yeah. And he didn't get to see it. Yeah, he died two weeks before. passed before while we were in about to go into rehearsals for the oscars remember i sang oh yeah

and um he didn't get to see it oh yeah he died two weeks before oh sorry yeah so that hurt what was that what was it he had um cancer oh god yeah it's terrible horrible it's a horrible way to watch somebody deteriorate you're a hero yeah he called himself mandico warrior yeah you know and he i remember he came back from vietnam he you know fought nam thank you all the veterans for real but my dad you know he had his complications he had the aging orange oh is that what he got he had it you know my friend kit who's here in the house that's what her dad died of but he didn't die of that oh my dad cured himself i don't know how the hell he did it. I just, because it was in his feet.

He had it in his feet and the flesh would melt off his, literally down to the white meat. It would just start coming off. And I don't know, he did some concoction where he had bleach and stuff. He would soak his feet in that. Yeah. Gone. Really? That's why we were all screwed up because he beat everything every

ailment he had he would beat it he would be like i'm strong i'm my nico man so when that cancer got him yeah it killed us because we was just so used to him being so strong and beating everything yeah you know something's gonna get us i guess some point. That's why you got to live your life and be grateful every day. Yeah. Are you good with the gratitude? Yes. And I'm human. You know, we all get selfish and stuck in our ways sometimes.

But just remind yourself every day that you could have been chosen to not wake up today. I know. It happens. You hear about it all the time. Every day. Such and such had an aneurysm in it. No one knows where those things come from. No. But it happens. It happens. You hear about it all the time. Every day. Such and such had an aneurysm in it. No one knows where those things come from, but it happens. No, I know.

Your car can be plucked at any moment. I know it happened. I lost someone close to me out of nowhere. Had something she didn't know she had. Died in a week. Yeah. Yeah. But I still have the same sometimes even where you have to choose to think differently.

Yeah. Because those old patterns are strong. They are. Right. They're breakable. Oh, yeah. Yeah. At least you get self-awareness enough to where when you sink into it, you got a better chance of getting out of it.

Well, I hope. That's the hope, right? The daily hope. Yes. There you go. There's the show. The daily hope. Yeah, yeah.

I would be the one to host that. People would be very surprised. Yes. So what have you been producing, though, in terms of films? Yeah, I had started a production company there, a couple of films that uh that we're trying to get financing for one that i'm directing it's a coming of age story oh yeah um two-phase braun

bought it braun studios bought it we're working on the script right now and it's a it's a script where i want to discover a new young um uh african-american actress i never had a coming of age story that i could identify with growing up. We didn't have the images. You know, I only time I really identified with I identified with the Brat Pack, you know, Molly Ringwald, especially in Pretty in Pink because she was poor and she came from a single family home. But still, it's the model. The model was always white. Exactly.

So there was never our story being told what it is to be a young black girl coming of age yeah in high school going off to college so um i jumped at the chance um we're now rewriting the script okay at first it was pg now they want it rated r oh that's all right it's okay because these kids are rated r yeah i mean literally you can't hide all kids are rated r i think pretty much at this point at this point. At this point. Thanks, social media. Exactly. TikTok. Yeah, great job.

Yeah, look what you did. You broke the children. We're all addicts. Yeah, exactly. Everybody was going crazy. Instagram is down. Oh, no. Yeah, I know.

It was nuts. I enjoyed it. I did, too. I tweeted. I said, I hope Twitter's next. They probably took that down. They didn't. It was interesting.

Some people were like, why would you say that? It's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Right. Put the phone down. Yeah, take a rest. Get your head up. Look at the clouds, the sky today. It's a lot slower out here.

It's a lot slower outside of your phone. Yes. We're in a different time zone. Our brains are going all the time. A lot of people dancing, it on tiktok yes well i think coming out of a pandemic and a worldwide lockdown you gotta dance it's so much dancing every time i mean i don't know what's going on but i found myself on instagram i followed one of the dancing ladies yeah i mean she's just jumping around i thought because it's happy you know dancing and laughter is euphoric. And it's all about that dopamine jolt.

Facts. Right. I was going there next. You were? Yeah. Yeah. The people dancing, but you're watching them dance. Absolutely.

You get a little juice, right? I get joy. I know this is strange. I get joy looking at tiny things. So I follow this page called Tiny Kitchen. Yeah. And they cook meals, but all in a miniature like everything's miniature i like tiny things too i love it and they'll make like a miniature strawberry shortcake like how miniature

like very small like the size of a quarter yeah like it's little it's tiny but it's legit it's a real short yeah they they have a little oven with a tea candle that's how they cook everything in this little oven in this little stove that has a tea candle yeah and they fry bacon little teeny bacon little bacons i'm like where did they get that little egg where did they find that teeny tiny onion like you go down a rabbit hole then there's another page that makes all the of the tiny little um appliances that they use oh my god like it's the rabbit hole then there's a page where there's tiny little dolls where he'll shave all the hair off the doll and give it a new wig.

It's a whole universe. Go down a rabbit hole of tiny. I just like tiny. I always like, I'll go, I like looking at the travel section at the Walgreens. It's like, oh,

they make that little. Whatever makes you happy. You got to do it. You must. That's very specific. The tiny thing. I don't know why. Is there a lot of people that like it?

Uh-huh. I'm not the only one. I was following like, because I was like, they're gonna think I'm weird. They're gonna think I'm weird. So I would never like that. Then I started seeing all the celebrities that follow.

And I said, oh no, they need to know that I follow too. I want them to go on forever. Yes. More tiny world. Yes, it's's amazing i wonder what it is that's so appealing about the little things it seems i don't know what it is well i guess for me it taps into my childhood because i played with that stuff when i was a kid you know betty crocker yeah right right easy bake oven all of that yeah easy bake yeah it's the easy bake but betty crocker

came out with one too i don't. I don't remember. Maybe not. Maybe it was easy bake. And maybe sometimes they would partner with Betty Crocker. Probably, yeah. Do you cook now? Uh-huh. Yeah, I love to cook. My son is grown now, so I don't cook as much.

I've gotten a little bougie. He's 27. Oh, yeah? Yeah, I've gotten a little bougie. I'll be like, I have people for that now. Oh, really? You get the people cooking? Well, I have a chef.

Why not? Yeah, because, you know, when you get busy, I don't want to have to think about what I'm eating when I get home. And I don't want to eat bad. So if I have a meal prep, then it kind of keeps me in line. That's so funny because, like, I make it, like, part of my business to, like, I cooked all day yesterday. You did? I did. Now Sundays I'll throw that.

Right? You know. It's something about fall, football, and cooking. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Like, I'll just do it. I'm not as busy as you. Yeah.

But I find this sort of zen thing with the cooking. Oh, absolutely. It's very therapeutic. And I was on the road for a while, and I got a little road pudge. Oh, yeah. That's the first thing I do when I've worked on location is I come back home and I cook. But nowadays when I go on location, I make sure I have a kitchen. Because I don't like eating out

all the time. I can't stand it. I don't like it. You get over it. And it's a lot of sodium. Sodium, oil. Yeah, and you don't know. You don't see it. Butter. Yeah, it's like, this seems healthy. No. Nope. Even salads. My mom is like, I don't know why I keep getting all this way to all the meat and salads. I'm like, what dressing

are you eating? Caesar salad ain't it, mom? Yeah, yeah. Clue cheese. Stay away from the croutons and the cheese. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's hard, right? Yeah, it's hard. But personal chef.

Now, what do they do? They live with you? No, no, no. Okay. I like my space. Yeah, I don't know how that works in that world. No, she just meal preps at home and drops the meals off. She has several clients.

Oh, I see. She has several clients. Oh, I see. She has several clients. So they just drop it off. You throw it in the oven. Yeah. Oh, okay. That's different. Because when I hear personal chef, I think like, is that like a butler?

No, I'm not the Smiths. I remember the first time I went to the Smiths' house to rehearse. Jada and Will? Yeah, Jada and Will Smith and Jada. And this is when we were filming, preparing to go film Karate Kid. Oh, yeah. And we had rehearsals at their house. And I remember walking in and, you know, Will and Jenny was so sweet.

And they were like, is there anything you would like to eat? And I'm just playing. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'd like to have some lobster. He's like, how would you like it cooked? And I was like, oh, shit, he's serious. Yeah, I'm not like that. I don't have a chef on deck. Did you have a lobster?

Oh, God, yes. I had poached lobster. I mean, the snacks kept coming in, the chef in the chef's hat. I went to the bathroom. I remember wiping my hand on some linen. Yeah. I go back in the bathroom. The bathroom was spotless.

Yeah. And I threw the linen in the basket that was there. Yeah. And I went back like you know an hour later and it was clean and it had already been replaced back on the and i was like do they have little people in behind the walls that jump out look at the miniature people and i could hear willow practicing her voice lessons and i was like wow this house is happening yeah they might find me here in one of the bathroom rooms tomorrow morning. Like, you didn't go home?

No, I kind of moved in. Where's my lobster? That's funny. How was it working with, you produced the, we're in the What Men Want. How was it working with Tracy? Amazing.

He's funny. He tells the stories, boy. I would be like, Tracy, okay, I really want to hear how this ended, but can we please finish this scene? Okay, Taraji. I got you, sis. Taraji wants me to stop. I'm like, yeah, we want to go home.

You never know what you're gonna get with him really don't oh my god he would say some of the most zaniest thing and i figured him out i said you like shock you like to shock yeah and so because i said you don't know my dad he my shock you have to do something really crazy like you have to do something you've never done before to really shock me trace yeah because i think he spent a lot of that uh shoot trying to shock me oh yeah and i would just look at him sorry tracy i've seen a lot in my lifetime i've heard a lot yeah a little jaded yeah and i i'm a bit of a comedian because comedians what you do is you find that humor and everything of course you know yeah and that's literally how i lived my life yeah you have to it's a mixture of the things that

you do to cope absolutely so empire is that done now yes it's done how many did you shoot six seasons wow yeah six so like you like you did like that was a huge success. And it was almost like the last great TV show. Yeah, and now everybody's trying to recreate it. And it's like you got to remember the last time an all-black cast in a television show had that much success. And when I say that much success, I mean overseas, was Bill Cosby. Right. And then for years they were trying to recreate that right formula right you know right and i've even had producers say to me

now yeah that i'm on on the other side of producer like when the empire hit all the studios like we need that empire effect we need that empire effect we need this character needs to be like cookie you know and so it's like good luck guys you're not gonna find that kind of sweet spot again for another decade probably you know it takes a minute yeah and it so many things have got to click and you can't we've done that already you got to find the next well you can't plan it man you can't and you got to find that and it's it's all in taking risks and as long as you keep trying to recreate Empire, you're not taking a risk. You're playing it safe.

But also, you don't know that an ensemble is going to click like that. Empire took a risk. Those producers took a risk. Fox took a risk. Right. Yeah. And that's what art is, taking a risk. Absolutely.

Putting yourself out there. Maybe it'll hit. Maybe it won't. But that's art. Yeah. You have to be willing to take a risk. And these studios play it won't. But that's art. Yeah. You have to be willing to take a risk. And these studios play it too safe. And then when some studio steps outside and takes that risk, all the other studios go, let's do that.

And it's like you need to do the opposite of what they're doing because you can't recreate that. They've already done it. Right. They just want to hack it. They've already done it. Yeah. And you were part of it. Yeah.

And now you're a cookie to everybody. I'm still Yvette. Yeah. I still get that yeah you can always be evette to me that's it i guess that's the liability of being on a successful show for a long time you know i just i do not it's a nod to my talent to the point where people were so affected and inspired by her that that's what they still see that in me. It's all right. It's okay.

It's okay because I have it several times, Shug. I don't think people really called me Shug. They would just be like ask me to sing the song. Yeah, right, right. But, you know,

the two characters that I could never like really get away from and where the name really stuck is Yvette and Cookie throughout my entire career. Oh, really?

Yeah, Yvette. That was her name. That was her name. Yvette. Jodi and Yvette. Just throughout my entire career. Oh, really? Yeah, Yvette. That was her name. That was her name. Yvette. Jodi and Yvette. The way you said Jodi. I know. That's what everybody was like.

It was the way, Jodi. It just sounded like this couple were together and she said his name like she loved and hated him at the same time. You know what? When I think about that movie and I do like fairly often, there's a couple of movies that like I just I think about a lot.

But that scene, you know, where Snoop's character comes home and, you know, and he's a killer. Yeah. But like there was the way you handled him even being as menacing as he was and your character when you stop him from basically raping you. And he does. But you make assumptions about like how this is going to go. Yeah. And somehow in that scene it was so believable that, you know, that your strength and your clarity in that moment could speak to, you know, whatever the child is. That beast.

Right. That beast in him. Right. And also the child in him. You brought out, it's like, what are you doing? In front of my son? Yeah, yeah. That was all John.

That was. But, you know, the clever, it was interesting because we had to make Snoop Dogg look menacing because that's not even, that's not. He's such. Yeah. He was like, John, come on, man.

I love the ladies. I don't hit the ladies. I was like, well, Snoop, in order for this scene to work, I got to be scared because if you grab me

like this real light, I'm going to run and go call the police. Yeah. And so he did it in one take. I took off running. I was like,

help, help. But they started laughing. I said, see, so you really, but he still wouldn't do it. So it was literally me pushing myself on the bed.

Oh, he couldn't do it. And making my, and the way John set the camera to make him look menacing because he really had a problem with that. Oh, wow. He did not like that at all. And I was like, Snoop, I know you would never put your hands on a woman, but it's called acting and we kind of need you to because we want to go home. We have like 10 other scenes to shoot today.

Like, come on. Now, this new thing that you're doing with the Facebook Watch, Peace of Mind. This is like, how do you see this project? I see this project as therapy for all of us, even myself and my best friend what you you're basically talking about mental health yeah well we're we're we're educating yeah an audience that um really does not talk about mental health at all and for that matter don't really take care of that mental

health because it's not talked about in the black community does not talk about mental health um we have learned to cope um by being strong right and that's dangerous it's killing us yeah um and it's not we need to stop passing that down because it's been passed down to us in slavery you know oh yeah how do you see that just by taking it? Because the the coping skills. OK, so a feeling of a lack of agency that but how we cope through trauma instead of dealing with it and saying, oh, this is why I respond like that, because this happened or you don't have to be strong. And first of all, you can't pray away a mental illness. Right. And that's what we've been told to do. We're often demonized.

You can't pray away a mental illness. Right. And that's what we've been told to do. We're often demonized. You know, our children in school, when they act out from a traumatic situation, they may be going through at home. Children don't want to act out. Right. But when they do, and it always seems to be our children get demonized.

Cops show up, arrest them. Well, we need clinicians, therapists, psychiatrists in place in schools to know when a child is dealing with trauma right right instead of criminalizing them right because sometimes it's just passed down passed down and and and and then if it's not taken care of properly it it just can become criminal absolutely because if you are bipolar bipolar and you are taking medicine, you know when bipolar people, when they're suffering from bipolarism and they have a manic episode? Yeah, I grew up with it. My dad's bipolar.

They don't remember what the fuck they did. No, but they miss it. They like it. You think so? Sometimes. I knew that with my dad, it was exciting to be manic. dad like he would you know like it was exciting to be manic so you know when the depression comes they all they think is all they feel is the depression but they miss the manic because when they're manic they think they're normal well but see i've seen manic where they think

they're god yeah they you know what i'm saying and they so it's different kinds of man no yeah my my dad uh yeah he just got to the level of like wasting money, you know, doing things, but never sort of like I'm moving. Out of the out of mind. Total. Yeah. I've seen that. And so. And your family.

Yeah. Friends, family. I've seen it. And so when that happens, a lot of time, most times black people are criminalized instead of something's clearly off here because this gentleman who's sitting before me doesn't even sound like the person in this report. You know, so we have to bring awareness so that people are treated and handled with the proper care because 80 percent of the prison population don't belong there. Yeah. It's not a correctional facility anymore. No. It's a money-making business.

Of course. So the more inmates, the more money. Yeah. And a lot of those people are there because they have mental health issues. Yeah. That's not rehabilitating

to put someone who was suffering from a mental illness in a cage with no help. No. What was the inspiration for doing this my dad my dad suffered you know he had ptsd yeah manic depression well back then it was called

manic depression right before they yeah did more research and he wore his heart on his sleeve he didn't hide he told his story to everyone he tried to commit suicide once with a gun to his head and it missed and he would sit and gun to his head and it missed. And he would sit and show you his scar and tell you. Because his thing is he never wanted anybody to go through what he went through. Right. You know, and he was always saying, I want to be famous. Make sure you put me in one of your movies one day.

The world should know Boris Lawrence because he was an artist as well. What kind of art? Objects. Metal. Metal. He could do anything with metal. He made metal masks. Sculptor. Sculptor. Exactly. He just was very honest. objects metal metal he could do anything with metal he made metal masks a sculptor sculptor exactly he just was very honest even though he didn't seek the therapy that he probably should

have yeah but um he was honest yeah and i was like this is a great way for the world to finally know my dad and um he was such a huge part of my life and why I'm this successful because if he didn't challenge me to move to LA, where would I be? Right. You know? But how did his illness, like were there times where it became taxing?

Yeah, I mean, I guess because you were in two, you know, he lived wherever he lived. But I spent a lot of time with my dad. There was a, I was all, you know, I would be with my mom this weekend, my dad this weekend my dad this right but like your mom was it more stability yeah way more stability yeah not until my dad got older understood what was going on in his life yeah um and met my stepmother um and they you know he really got his that's when he was able to get the house and the garage and Harley and every his life came together and it felt good to finally see my dad stay yeah you know right but so going in and out of that

because a lot of times when you're when you're brought up by people who who don't have that emotional consistency because of their own problems you know it makes makes you you know I had to trace back some my anxiety absolutely me as well in therapy yeah and why i'm such a caretaker why i'm always trying to fix yeah because i was always there to put my dad back together right you know and at a young age that's unfair i don't know you know but that's in me now right i don't know i just that's why I'm married. Because I find the men that I need to fix. You can't fix anybody. I know.

It's hard when you're wired to be attracted to mentally ill people. When you're mentally ill yourself. That's right. This all makes sense now. I grew up with this. Right. This feels familiar. Exactly.

So how big of a challenge is it to i mean i i talk about mental mental health uh pretty openly on this show yes and it seems like everything is still no matter how much you think the culture talks about anything it's still pretty stigmatized because most people don't want to think it's them so they'll hear about something but they don't think it's them and that's part of the sickness sometimes but see that's why i like that i'm seeing all of these conversations being had now yeah because you can't run from oh that sounds like what i did that's right oh that sounds like but you gotta want help but but the thing about it is if you if you've never ever ever ever talked about it you don't think you need help because

it's never been presented that way to you how do you know so that's what this show is about because i'm finding things out about me we did an episode about uh dealing with social anxiety yeah and i think a lot of us because i didn't realize that that's what i suffer from sometimes i couldn't put my back it was became normal for me because what it didn't happen I thought it I thought I developed this during the pandemic and the shutdown yeah when the world started slowly opening back up I was like I would talk myself out of going to the store you know but that started happening before when I you know through therapy you start going back in time and it's like oh that had nothing to do with COVID. I was actually doing that in Chicago.

Yeah. Cookie brought such a different level of fame. Right. To me. Sure. I was usually operating under the radar. Right, right. They would be like, is that her?

By the time they figured it out, I was out the store. Right. But cookie made me popular. And that's a different type of attention. Sure. Yeah. I had been doing this for a while and how do you maintain boundaries when all that's coming at you all that attention and people think they know you and security security but that but it's an interesting thing

that i'm just thinking and you know i might be projecting but it seems that within the black community that that social anxiety you know is a legitimate concern in certain situations that there is a consciousness that you that you were in this body that is going to draw the attention of white people in a certain way absolutely and you know I had to deal with that too because it's like I lived in an area where everybody when I get on the elevator they're looking at me like what you doing here right and I'm draped in all of the high fashion the tags the labels everything that screams this woman belongs here she has money still I'm being you know and even though I don't allow that to I don't take it all the way in. It is in me. You know, it affects me.

I'll be like, why did that man look at me like that on the elevator? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And then now I'm looking at people in the elevator like this. I dare you look at me. You know what I mean? It's just right.

It's like. Right. So like it's walking into a room where you're the only black person. You brace yourself. Right. You know what I mean? It's living like that all the time. But that's the thing.

It's not cool that we function like this. That's right. But you're correct, right? But that is the coping thing. But we have to talk. But then. I know. But that's bad.

I'm saying. It's bad. We must talk about it. Yeah. We must. And we can't laugh about it. You know, black people, we have a way of making jokes out of stuff to cope. And that's OK to a certain extent. But what are we really going to deal with it? Little thing. And I'm telling you, is deep on how this trauma, this generational trauma has been passed down to us since slavery, because we haven't really dealt with that. We still don't talk about that. Remember, we can't do critical race teaching in school. Right? You know, when you talk about slavery,

you get a glimpse of it. Now, I didn't really learn a lot about the Middle Passage until I enrolled into an HBCU. Right. Right? Yeah. And so now that I'm in the mental health field. That's the history.

That's how this country was built. Yeah. No one wants to talk about it. Well, I mean, certain people want to talk about it but right but the people that don't want to talk about it want to find the information but that's my point you have and how many people are good how many of us are going to seek out that information you know so i learned that hush puppies were actually given to the dogs when the slaves were trying to run to freedom to keep them off their trail. Interesting. Hush puppies.

Now, look at how we've normalized. Like that fried cornbread thing? Yes. But look at how we normalized it. Yeah, I enjoy them. Right. And black people don't even realize. That's what it means, hush puppies.

Wow. I didn't know that. It's in our DNA as well. I have a phobia of being in small, tight spaces. Is that in my DNA from running away to freedom? You know what I mean? No, I agree with you. I think that the nuances of what is carried through generations that becomes almost genetic can be psychological.

Absolutely. genetic can be psychological absolutely because you know that there is a way that one behaves that you grow up you're wired by your environment and how your people you know are reacting and sure why wouldn't it be historical because my grandmother generational absolutely my grandmother um you know she's like one generation away from pick cotton and the fields. My grandfather was a sharecropper. They lived on a big acre, a field of cotton. And that's how my family, my grandmother had eight children, and that's how they all made money. They picked cotton and all of the kids working and the dad, and $300 a month is what they made.

And they lived in a two-bedroom house with a tin roof. Right. Well, I think that i i think we all i i i don't forget but i think in order to put things in a historical perspective you have to realize that this shit wasn't that long ago it wasn't my mom went to you know if you ever everybody knows my age you can google it but this is gonna date me for sure my mom went to a one room school like little house on a prairie yeah my mother yeah not my grandmother my mother yeah you know where was that in north carolina scotland neck

north carolina yeah and my grandmother was the help you know that that's that's like that's two generations ago yeah you know so i i'm saying all of that to say that of course my grandmother you be careful when you get around them white folk. That's right. You know, so when I went to the country, I that was put in me. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Right. Don't you mouth back to them white because, you know, they ate them. You know, that was in me. And then I'll get back to the city and be like, I could feel myself doing that. Yeah. You know, it wasn't until I found my voice where I was like, I don't have to do that. Yeah.

You know? It's 1980. Yeah. But it's right there. It's right there. And how is this landing in the community, the show? It's, you know, I'm overwhelmed with how well it's being received by us, you know, and not only this show is not just for African-Americans. Right. OK, this show is for everyone. Right. Because when you understand someone's struggles, what they might be going through, this is empathy.

Right. This is allowing space for grace. And this is what my best friend likes to call it. Allow space for grace because, you know, I'm learning things and I'll connect it to a person that I had an encounter with. And I'll be like, oh, my God, I never thought that maybe they were having the episode, you know. Yeah. And it'll give us it. I think it makes you makes us better as humans if we just understand each other a little more and that's why this mental health conversation is so important empathy is tricky you know because people are so self-involved i mean so self-involved and it's not i mean i don't think they plan to be it's just the nature of how shit is yeah i gotta get to get to where I'm going. Somebody cut you off. You're not even aware. Maybe they just heard just now somebody died

and they're racing to die. All you know is, bitch, you cut me off. Right. You know? Yeah, yeah. So I think if we could just all slow down and breathe before we react and just consider the other person.

It takes a big person to do that. It just takes a breath. That's it. It's like, because I just had a moment like that. And also, it's relative to your life experience. Yeah. You know, who you were a year ago. Yeah.

And who you are today could be totally different because something happened to you make you more sensitive to other people. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Or not. Or enraged. Yeah, yeah. This person did that to me so everybody that looks

like him i'm ready you know go either way yeah yeah but it's very exciting to have those those breakthroughs to allow that kind of uh open-hearted uh uh i don't know if it's joy but those moments they're emotional you know everyone's very guarded so like they're afraid to let it down well you won't you won't be and that's the narrative we need to change yeah your strength is in the vulnerability change is in the vulnerability strong we aren't built to be strong a wall and a building is built to be strong also sometimes strength is just defensiveness strength is just being vulnerable strength is big your truth being honest enough to say this doesn't feel good i don't feel good you don't make me feel good what you said triggered me yeah you know right but if you're always standing with your guards up and strong

strong strong that's gonna break you're gonna break down eventually that's how nervous breakdowns happen because you hit a wall with the coping mechanism yeah yeah or you just sort of like you know you give up yeah yeah you know yeah you get tired of holding trying to be strong you're not a building you're not the empire state building yeah well that's also the thing you said earlier in some relation to something else that like i'm 58 i just turned 58 and i like i give a lot less fucks let me tell you they're all behind me now all the fucks all of them all the fucks i had are behind me well congratulations yeah i can't help you i literally would say no no explanation no i can't do it yeah. I don't want to. Feels good, right? It feels great. Oh, good.

Oh, my God. It's great talking to you. You as well. This was fun. I knew it would be, though. Oh, good. Good. Thanks for coming.

Thanks for having me. There you go. How fun was that? I love her. Peace of Mind with Taraji is now in its second season on Facebook Watch. Let's play this new strat. Let's play this fucking strat. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives!

Monkey, La Fonda, Cat... Cat... What? Cat angels everywhere! Cat angels everywhere. Cat angels everywhere. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a

special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Discover the timeless elegance of cozy, where furniture meets innovation. Designed in Canada, the Sofa Collections are not just elegant, they're modular, designed to adapt and evolve with your life.

Reconfigure them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the cozy difference with furniture that grows with you, delivered to your door quickly and for free. Assembly is a breeze, setting you up for years of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture.