WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1273 - Hasan Minhaj

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

Hasan Minhaj took the pressures put on him to become a lawyer and channeled them into the ambition necessary to start a standup career, become a Daily Show correspondent, host his own show (Patriot Act), get cast on a prestige drama (The Morning Show), and have a future in comedy as bright as anyone in his peer group. Marc and Hasan break down the roots of that ambition, how it differs between different generations of comedians, and whether or not there's a correlation between comedy and entrepreneurship. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What the fuck, Tuplets? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast.

It goes on and on. The podcast keeps going every Monday and Thursday for many, many years. WTF Podcast established EST period 2009 and we go and keep going always a new show every Monday and Thursday with all different people to talk to what am I doing why am I talking like this established founded founded in 2009 relax will you today i'm going to talk to uh hassan minhaj uh you know him he's the the old daily show correspondent he had his own netflix show patriot act had a netflix stand-up special homecoming king and right now he's uh he's in uh season two of The Morning Show on Apple TV. He's touring. But it's interesting to talk to these young guys.

I start to think about ambition, the nature of ambition, the nature of my own ambition. What does my ambition look like? Is ambition something that we all have? I know one thing, that there is a type of person who might be mildly creative or creative enough that is so consumed with ambition that they begin to believe that ambition in and of itself is a point of view, which it is not. Ambition is not a point of view. I think ambition, you know what, let's look it up. I'm curious. There you go. A strong desire to do or to achieve something typically requiring determination and hard work. Okay. Okay. Well,

I guess I have that, but I don't know that I really think about it in that way. I get very myopic in terms of things that I want to do, but I don't, I guess it's, it's about the payoff. What, what is the ambition? What is your ambition? What is it to win? Is it to succeed beyond your wildest dreams? Is it to own a jet to have a plane? Like I was never really that kind of guy. It wasn't even about money or things. Cause when I think about it, it just was about being heard and uh you know getting my my thoughts across my point of view across you know I I wanted to succeed but it was it was vague the markers were not a big house the markers were not a big car. The markers were not about winning some competition. It was all internal because I've been thinking about it a lot lately. I talked to Hassan today

and next week, I think I'm going to put up a Ricky Velez interview. He's another comic. And just about the way these guys talk about starting out and what their their goals were and thinking back on what mine were and where I am at, you know, obviously, in terms of creating product for the masses and having a certain amount of entertainment business success. You look at someone like Hassan and he's definitely had it and he definitely guns for it. And it's definitely, you know, what he does, you know, in terms of, you know, not just comedy, but acting and his own show and also, you know, presenting his cultural analysis. I mean, these are all things I do. And am I comparing myself to him? No, but I'm just kind of curious as to the drive shaft of ambition

and who I was when I was a younger comic. But, you know, some people are all about ambition. And sometimes ambition, and I've said this before, I believe, like with minimal talent can land you somewhere close to where you want to go. Ultimately, you know, time will tell whether you can do the gig or do the job or show up for it. But sometimes just pure ambition is enough for people to sort of move through and kind of, you know, if you have an almost an intense or sort of energetic or furious ambition, you can dupe most people into thinking you've got it.

That's for sure. But with me, like specifically in talking about when I started doing comedy, like I talk about it with Hossen, and I also talked about it with Ricky Velez, which you'll hear next week. There was this, they have this drive where they like, they want to play the garden. You know, which you'll hear next week. There was this, they have this drive where they want to play the

garden. You know, they want to crush every time. It's about crushing. You know, go out there and crush. Don't you want to play the garden? I don't. I never did. I never thought about it. You know, when I do think

about it, I'm like, it's too, like, what would I, you know, I can't do what I believe I like to do in even now I'm pulling back from doing theaters that I could sell out to do smaller places so I can do what I do which is connect which is connect and be one mind it's not about laugh to laugh. At some point, I realized that getting laughs in a bing, bing, bing, bing, there was always this rule that hung over all of us. You got to get a laugh every 30 seconds. There's this unspoken rule.

Get the laugh every 30 seconds. Close big. And I know those rules. And when I started, you to kill you know you do 10 15 10 minute sets 15 minute sets you want to close big you want to kill you want it all the way and I did that work but like was killing what it was about and I don't think so and I think I've talked about this before I think that most of my ambition all I knew is I wanted to be a great comic. And I don't know what determined that. And I'm still not exactly sure what determines that because I'm still not exactly sure that I'm exactly where I need to be.

I know I'm doing the best work I've ever done and I'm taking chances. You know, but what determines being a great comic? Is it self-declaration? You know, is it someone saying like, you know, I'm the goat? Are there moments, are there hours where you know who is transcendent? I know who is transcendent for me and I know what makes a great comic. But for me, it was more the ambition was to get my thoughts across, to express myself fully and to be seen for who I am. Now, I didn't know

who I was at the beginning and I don't think many of us do as comics, but I don't think I knew as a person. So it was really building who I was on stage as a comic. And it's taken me as long as it's taken me. But for me, it's not about the crush. It's about the moments that transcend time and space that you don't see coming, that you don't know that are going to happen. Like last night, I was on stage at the Comedy Store. It was sticking with me, this whole idea of crushing. After talking to Hassan and also Ricky and then fucking dealing with Andrew Santino texting. And I was at the store the other night. And I followed Jesus Trejo.

And he just. These are young guys. And Trejo just fucking killed. And it was just this groove. I can hear it. I've been doing this for all my life. The well-honed jokes. The one after the other.

And you get into that groove. And it's just like boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's just. It's beautiful boom and it's just it's beautiful to watch it's beautiful to hear and after talking to these guys and then you know following asus the other night you know i had to ask myself you know am i do i do that anymore can i do that anymore do i give a shit about that am i avoiding it aren't i a comic aren't i a seasoned veteran is that what is important like i'm still i'm at this fucking stage in my goddamn career this many years in and i'm like do i need to kill

more this is all this like thoughtful kind of like you know social commentary personal revelation you know dark you know emotional uh unpacking of things we we don't like to talk about is that is that relevant is that is that am i still doing the comedy can i still fucking kill or what i do well but like do i think about killing not really i want things to land but man it got in my head man it got my head you know i'm talking to my friend kit i'm like i don't do jokes man i got i don't do the joke to joke thing and something happened boy last night because i you know it was stuck in my fucking craw and uh you know and i just like right before i went on in the main room i fucking put it together in my head like I always do. But I'm like, all right, I'm going to fucking crush.

I'm going to fucking crush. I'm going to crush with the jokes that I do with my shit because I can crush. And I went out there and fucking crushed. And did it feel good? Sure. It felt good. Do I need to do it every time? I don't so i like gaps i like to leave room like i even in the middle of crushing and i know i know i'm declaring this and this is like not i'm not trying to prove anything other than

to myself that like yes yes i i do know how to crush it It was important to me. It is not everything, but fuck you, I can still crush. Like crush, crush. Dumb. What am I? It's like, see, is this old man shit? It's just an old man trying to swing his dick around? This crushing business? But even in the middle of the crushing,

I came up with this beautiful new piece, a new riff, a new beat, and it killed, and I had to literally stop, and I'm going like, oh my God, I never said that before. Can I have a second just to enjoy my brain? And that's the freedom of my brain. In that moment, something came down through it,

and it was just a beautiful little beat, and that's freedom of mind. That's free thinking. That's untethered. That's uncontextualized. That's unpimped by the algorithm. That's fucking pure creativity. Yeah.

You might want to make sure you hold on to some of that for yourself. Make sure every once in a while something actually comes from your heart and your mind in a moment and it's yours it's fucking yours crushing hassan minhaj uh is a comedian he was the host of uh the patriot act he was a a uh a correspondent on the daily show He's now acting in the Apple TV show, The Morning Show, in its second season. And his King's Jester tour dates are available at his website, hasanminhaj.com,

H-A-S-N-M-I-N-H-A-J.com. And this is me having a conversation with Hasan. It's winter, And this is me having a conversation with Hassan. Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region.

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I mean, you work pretty quick. I mean, I don't know when you shot that special, your last one. That was at the college in Davis? That was at Mondavi Center, which is like a big, beautiful performing arts center. Like, I perform at the Kennedy Center. Yeah. You've probably done that. I'm doing that next week.

Right. So, it's great. What, the big room? The big room. It's great because it's'm doing that next week. Right. How is it? It's great. What, the big room? The big room. It's great because it's built for acoustics. Yeah. So there's really no distance. Sometimes those halls that are really built well, you can do it. And it's an honor.

It feels exciting. Right. You've never played there? Never played. I did Carnegie. I did Carnegie Hall last year. Yeah, I didn't love it. A couple years ago.

You didn't love it. I mean, I was happy to be there, but I kind of fucked myself. I don't think my hour was as tight as I wanted it to be. And I stayed on a really long time. And there's something about rooms that are over 2,000. I can feel it. I have to handle it. It's crowd control.

Well, it's not just crowd control, but you can feel the edges sort of getting away from you. Like, is this getting all the way to the back of the room i start to feel like it's not connecting yeah i get what you're saying you know what i mean yeah i mean i mean maybe you don't feel that but i start to feel like like this is a lot it's not i don't i like the theater shows now and i'll do this a couple times in the act i go back row you guys okay right and and and a few people are like why are you doing that i'm like because because when I look at those and you look at the rear proceedings, you see those little tiny exits.

If I can see that tiny exit, what do I look like in relation to that? Sure, and are they laughing? Like, if you think of yourself at a show, like, would you, I don't know how the hell,

when people go to comedy shows, I'm like, I don't even know what they're doing. So like, but if you were sitting in the back of a room, would you laugh? Look, man, I was a civilian for a long time where like, but if you were sitting in the back of a room, would you laugh?

Look, man, I was a civilian for a long time where, like, I didn't know if I would really even make it in this business. And I remember, I don't try to forget this. I know what it's like paying $85 plus $32 for ticket. $85? Yeah, plus $32 for ticket master fees. I saw Russell Peters here at UCLA way in the back. Chris Spencer opened. I told Russell this. I go, I at UCLA way in the back, Chris Spencer open. I told Russell this.

I go, I saw you way in the back. Did you laugh? I was witnessing at that level. You're just witnessing. Sure, exactly. Right. Now there's two things that, again, I don't know,

you've been doing stand-up such a long time where I don't know, do you remember that feeling? When you're a fan of somebody, the first feeling you have is oh he's real right because we exist as just avatars yeah yeah so the first time you see you go no he's actually like yeah yeah can you believe it he's here in westwood i know yeah

yeah yeah or you see him at a little club like i remember going to a comedy club when i was in college yeah and uh like you know paul reiser was there and i'd seen just seen diner and i was at the comic strip or eddie murphy popped in you like whoa right but uh i don't know like so you know, Paul Reiser was there and I'd seen, just seen Diner and I was at the comic strip or Eddie Murphy popped in. You're like, whoa. Right. But I don't know. So you're just witnessing the way they move, that they're in the flesh. Then the second thing you witness.

I always feel that though. I've always felt though that comics were human. They're not like rock stars. They never struck me like when I'd watch them in a movie or something. They always struck me as human. Really? The good ones. Yeah.

They're not machines. Some of them are machines. watch them in a movie or something they always struck me as human really good ones yeah they're not machines some of them are machines but like when i saw prior in high school that you couldn't be more human than that guy i mean i saw him in the movies yeah like i saw a midnight showing of live in concert and that's what changed my brain like i never laughed so much in my fucking life at a movie of a guy doing stand-up wow but he always seemed human to me and when i saw him in real life, he was more fragile than I thought, but he was older.

But what's your point is, is like the excitement of seeing that they're real. Yeah, that's the first thing. Then the second thing I remember distinctly is then seeing the pop of the crowd. Yeah. So, you know, all comics were more observant. You mean real pop or the pop of them recognizing celebrity?

No, the pop of that first big joke. Oh, of first big joke of the joke you know that first big uppercut where you get that first big applause break yeah and you go oh shit applause breaks i don't know if i had the laugh i can i can yeah yeah but i was you start to see people like kind of sometimes on a big joke they get surprised yeah yeah yeah and so I was witnessing that. With Russell. Exactly. But with like 3,000 people in 2005. Yeah. And I was just an open mic-er at that point. Where?

I started in Sacramento. At the Punch? At the Punch, yeah. I went to UC Davis. Wait, first of all, Mark, I wanted to ask you this. I've known you a long time. I've kind of observed you from the rear vestiges of the comedy store. Right. What is your perception of me?

Well, it's weird. Because the eye cannot see itself. No, I know. I know. But I mean, I don't know. Have you been hanging around the comedy store? I'm trying to remember. I think we met once.

I moved a long time. When I got hired at The Daily Show, I moved a long time ago. But I was around a bit. What year was that? I moved to New York in 2014 and I have not so I was around you were around but uh and this is really when the podcast was really really like just like started 2009 it was starting to take really taken I don't know that I don't know that I I knew you as a stand-up really and I don't I'm not sure because I didn't watch the daily show at that point like ever really got it but i knew that you were happening you know and i knew and i watched some of the patriarch stuff okay and then i watched a special you know recently because i knew i was going to talk to you so i don't know that you were on my radar other than like a guy that was doing things got it in in a righteous way so i don't know that so I don't know that I had a perception of you as a performer. I was sort of like, you cut a real strong line with your beard.

So the manicure of your beard, it stood out to me. It gets real geometric, yeah. And I kind of think, what kind of guy pays that much attention to that line? To the barber? Oh, it's a big deal. You go down the rabbit hole, my friend. Yeah, who your barber is and, yeah, who's cutting your hair is a big deal. I know that you're pretty, you hold everything pretty tight.

Oh, you mean personally? No, just all of it. The hair, the beard. Okay. The style, the watch. I mean, you know, you're together, man. Gotcha. You're together.

There's no unraveling this guy. Okay. Right? That's the watch. I mean, you know, you're together, man. You're together. There's no unraveling this guy. Okay. Right? That's the perception. Right. Yeah. Okay. Like it's tight, right?

Okay. What is the perception you think you're doing? Well, I was just, I was wondering, I was like, maybe if Mark saw the White House Correspondents Dinner or something, he was like, who is this poofy haired, big eyed Indian kid? No. Because we're culturally a very new thing. Our community coming up and coming of age in American popular culture and comedy is a very new thing.

Yeah, but oddly, you know, maybe you don't see it that way. Maybe you're just like, no, he's just a comic guy. I don't know that I see it that way. I mean, which is good. No, no, no. Great. I mean, because like I've, you know, look, man, I've talked to a lot of first generation people of all kinds.

Gotcha, gotcha. And Indian culture has always been sort of fascinating to me, you know, and I'm kind of hung up on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just like, I- You have an odd obsession, but you won't visit, which is, I find interesting. It's weird, yeah. But I actually have some of that soap right now.

Someone gave me that soap. Okay. The Changrit, or you know- Oh, gotcha. You now. Someone gave me that soap, the Changrit. Oh, gotcha. You know that Ayurvedic soap? Oh, boy. I know. So my whole bathroom up there smells like an Indian store.

Gotcha. It smells like Queens. Yeah, kind of. But it's sort of food-based, generally, and Ganesh-based, and the way it all looks. But I've always been- That's generally how they get you Americans. You know what I mean? Sure, man.

Yeah, they're just like, all right, we'll start with yoga and shine. Yeah, but I, well, not so much yoga, but I do like Nag Champa. But that guy's a dubious character. Sure, sure, sure. The Nag Champa guy, isn't he? I don't know what his story is. So I don't know that if it was, you registered as an Indian necessarily. And not really with Russell.

As a comic? Did I register as a comic? Oh, he's a comedian. Yeah, of course. Gotcha. Yeah, you know, there's been a few Indians, but they were not progressive Indians. Okay, gotcha. You know Jerry Bednob.

Of course, I know Uncle Jerry. He's Uncle Jerry to me. Is he? Yeah, of course. Did you talk to him? Yeah, of course. Oh, really? You have to?

Oh, come on, man. The old timers? Always. So you sat down with Jerry and said, when did you decide to him? Yeah, of course. Oh, really? You have to? Oh, come on, man. The old timers? Always. So you sat down with Jerry and said, when did you decide to not wear the headdress anymore? Wait, how did you know it was time to take off the headdress? You know what's crazy, man? What?

But those guys are the ones that had to deal with Indiana Jones Hollywood. You know what I mean? Monkey Brains Hollywood. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So the shoulders I stand on, it's really funny, man. When I talk to guys like him, or even the shit Maz Jabrani had to go through. I talked to Maz. Oh, my God, man. And also like Aaron Kader.

Totally. And Ahmed. The things that they had to go through. So the aperture and the myopic nature that Hollywood had in reference to kind of like who can kind of culturally play in this playground was very narrow. And how they played. Right. So they box you.

Correct. You can play, but you got to, this is your box. Yeah. Right. So to see a show like Rami on Hulu or to see my show, it's, they're just like, we didn't know, we didn't think it was possible. And I said, I mean, it's only possible because of the kind of the groundwork you guys laid, just honestly. But I think, but I think that all cultures like even the jews that after a certain point yes you know there's an attempt to pass and then then at some point you know you

decide to own your heritage right and so like what's happening now culturally i think across the board is at least in fiction is that there is some integration going on yeah and there's some embracing of diversity i don't know if it's bleeding into reality, but I think reality is much different and the lines are not as defined. I think that most people live among other people. Correct. And it's the way it is. But now it's such a, on TV and in fiction and in storytelling, it's sort of like, look what we're doing. Finally, we're letting the brown people talk.

They have their own lives. That don't center around us. Exactly. Can you believe it? So it's kind of fascinating to see, like to realize for me what's more fascinating is that America is much more diverse than it admits. 100%.

And that really is the future and whatever's happening right now culturally and politically is the freak out in light of that. Yeah. And honestly, like to me, the cool thing that I like that I'm seeing right now is the artists, we've always been the weirdos. You know, when I first started going to the Brainwash Cafe in San Francisco. I know that place.

Yeah. You look at that open mic lineup and it probably, you know, you probably went to- I remember all those guys. But it was- Oh, comics were weirdos. Yeah. Yeah. But it was an eclectic

myth no i know like because it was sort of the thing about comedy is is like you can sort of do whatever you want whatever you want and and you know either it'll stick or it won't or you'll stick with it or you won't you'll be that weird that people remember like oh you remember that guy you came in with that hat yeah so uh we were just talking about that last night me and ingram he was talking about somebody used to do a potluck at the store but i was just i looked up davis because i i've you know i've been there yeah but but you went to college there and there used to be a gig at a huge college bar there do you remember a comedy show that used to happen maybe monthly at davis yeah there was like it was in a giant i remember being in a bar though bar, though. Yeah, it's called The Grad. The Grad!

Yes. That's it! Yes. I had explosive diarrhea at The Grad when I worked there. Oh, shit. That's what I remember. How much did they pay? I don't remember. I think it was like, you know, for the headliner, it feels like it might have been a $400, some

gig like that. Yeah. Maybe, does that sound right? Something like that. You go with an opener. You know, funny enough, that was my sneak attack. That's how I really integrated myself in the San Francisco comedy scene. How?

Well, what I would do is I would book shows at Davis. At the college. Correct. And I would, now it wasn't at the grad, it then shifted on campus. But they somehow, the UC Regents gave me a credit card and $10,000. And so I could book 10 or 15 of these shows at $500 a pop. So let's go back though. So like you're, like I watched this special and it seems to me that like, you know, I've

done one man shows as opposed to, you know, just an hour of standup. I know. Don't you like it more? Sometimes. Oh, you don't? Oh, you don't like it more? No, I do. But it's a, it's a different thing.

Yeah. Like it really, cause I've tried both things and it really is a different thing. Gotcha. Because you know. What do you think't like it more? No, I do, but it's a different thing. Yeah. Like, it really, because I've tried both things, and it really is a different thing. Gotcha. Because, you know. What do you think you're better at? I think that's the more interesting. Well, I try to have themes in my stand-up. Totally.

I try to have callbacks in places. And you are a storyteller. Yeah, yeah. Fundamentally. Yeah, but, you know, the sort of arc of, like, you know, I'm the character in this show, and I go through some change and this is the turn at the beginning of the third act and now we're gonna land this thing yeah it's okay you know i like it i mean it you know it was moving but but i what i do know about stand-up

and about doing those one-man shows is sort of like you definitely have to edit reality and insert a certain emotional uh sensitivity in order to sell that fucking thing sure you know you have to on sell at some level go like i was a lot more pissed off than this but that's not going to really that's that's not going to really work because we're closing out act two b and we're moving on to act three but let me just say this mark in defense of those types of shows yeah at times i really feel like pure stand-up although it is beautiful is such a mixtape art form and what I mean by that

is when you listen to a mixtape it's just a grab bag of tracks I guess so and while it's emotionally very true a lot of times

artists when they drop mixtapes they really were punched in and locked in in the studio it's an emotional flow but not a story correct

and I've watched both and I've been like and I've watched both from the perspective as a comic and as an audience member. Yeah. And sometimes when audience members leave those big standup shows, they go, man, that was fucking cool. Yeah, yeah.

But what was it about? Right. Sure. That was fucking cool. Or then no one joke. Yeah. And I'm like, if that's what you're taking from my show, I'm extremely disappointed. No, I get that.

I mean, I understand the storytelling. And also, you know, it's an immigrant story. It's a racism story. It's, you know, you lucked out with Facebook. You used diagrams. It's a full show. It's a different thing. Sure, yeah.

And you're using, and look. It's a decision a comic makes. I'm lighting design, stage design, all those things. And, you know, to be honest with you, Mark, a lot of it just came after just failing as a stand-up. It just was not working. Well, that's what one-man shows are. That's exactly what they are.

How many Hasan Minhaj Conan Submission V8.mov am I going to send in? It just wasn't clicking. But your chops were there. I mean, you didn't fail as a stand-up in that you did the training. No, no, no. I had been doing it 11, 12 years. But I get the urge to as a stand-up in that you did the training. No, no, no. I had been doing it 11, 12 years. Right. But I get the urge to do a one-person show.

And it really is that moment where you're like, I can't just headline. Yeah, man. And I'm headlining B-Rooms. Or no one knows me as a headliner. And there's also a thing of just like, look at your stance. Sometimes when I see you and you're perched up on that stool, it's very different than watching, say, someone like Sebastian. Or watching someone like Godfrey. He's god movement yeah godfrey joe coy yeah they're working the room in a different way yeah and so i you know i've done that work though i've done the moving oh you did

how did it how did it go fine i mean i i know how to move right at some point i i felt that i found myself sitting down more when i was tanking. So as opposed to panic, when jokes aren't working, I'll be like, I'm just going to work against that and sit down. And then I realized that the idea, the device of sitting down creates an intimacy in almost any environment. Correct. So I can work from there. And you're playing to your strength. Yeah, they're coming to you. But then sometimes it doesn't, you know,

I don't feel I'm coming in. Then I'm up. I'm moving. You're moving. Sure. I'm not adverse to moving. You're like, I'm not afraid of an actor. No.

Yeah. But so, oh, anyway, so I'm like looking up that you went to UC Davis. Yeah. Like I have an old housemate of mine from college as a teacher there. Wow. And I had to order his new new book which i'm not going to understand but then i looked at what you studied which was what political policy yeah i don't know that you would have taken classes with this guy though he's a political guy joshua clover perhaps i wasn't paying attention really yeah man

i i really started really just focusing on stand-up i was a smart, capable kid. I was a speech and debate kid in high school. You were? Yeah. Tell me about that thing, like the stuff in the show. Like the father thing seems like you underplayed it. Seems like this guy was more of a nightmare than he really went on. I think the chapter two, the B-sides of it was more of, you know, like all, I think, sons with their dads, there's a lot of Simba Mufasa energy there you know like like all i think sons with their dads there's a lot

of simba mufasa energy there of just like and i think now that i've gotten older and now i have children on my own yeah i get it i get it man i wouldn't wish yeah but i wouldn't wish this life on my kids are you fucking kidding me but like what was the story i mean these are professional people right i mean because like i don't really i didn't get really a sense of what your dad did so so he's a chemist he He's an organic chemist. And he worked as an organic chemist for about 35 years. In private industry? No, no, no.

He was a state worker. Both of my parents are like public state workers. My mom works at the VA. What's an organic chemist do for the state? He was specifically- He's agriculture? Yeah, agriculture. So, I mean, if you want to get nerdy about it, it's specifically in regards to the pesticides

they're putting on plants in California, on almonds, on different- and hey what what is the efficacy of this what is not the efficacy of this all that sort of stuff so where did he come from where do you learn where do you get his degree he he he studied in india and then through um you know in the in the late 60s there was something called the uh the immigration african of 1965 where the united states government wanted to bring over a lot of college educated students. And that's where you saw an influx of a lot of East Asian immigrants. My dad's a part of that. He came in 82. And he went right to California. He went right to California. His sister was there and the Cal EPA was looking for PhD candidates to do chemistry, organic chemistry and all that sort of stuff. My dad came over. I was born in 85.

Yeah. And then, you know, he had that job. This is such a rare story now. He had that job for 35 years. So he was there since he was 20 something? Correct. He came over in the 60s? No, no, no.

He came over in the 80s. He was 30 something. Yeah. Oh, okay. He came in 82. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

And so for my dad, I mean, his big thing with me was, I think he could see that I was a very capable, smart person. Yeah. So he was like, why would you perform in a basement for drunks? dad, I mean, his big thing with me was I think he could see that I was a very capable, smart person. Yeah. So he was like, why would you perform in a basement for drunks? Yeah, I know. But like in the sort of like the struggle from that, from what I just talked to, you know, David Chang the other day. Yeah. And I've talked to.

The restaurateur. Yeah. But, you know, and it's a Korean trip. Correct. Correct. I know a lot of the stories about these fathers who come off as detached and have varying degrees of what would be emotional negligence bordering on abuse that you guys have to put into perspective. Yeah. No, look, I know you might be like, come on, man, he really fucked you up, didn't he? No, no, no, I don't think he fucked you up, but I mean- I think he gave me two great things, man.

And he's not wrong. That's the thing. Can I go back? About what? First was his analysis. Kid, are you really going to make it? When does this start, this conversation? This starts around 2006, 2007.

I'm a junior in college. But what about in high school? Like, what about when you're a little kid? I mean, I know all the jokes about, you know, like, you got to be pre-med and all that sort of stuff. Right, right, right. Yeah, but I mean, but was there a, was there, and your mother wasn't around for your first what? Yeah, she was back and forth. She was obviously finishing her degree and then she had to do.

So it's just you and the old man. Yeah, and then she's doing a residency in, you know, this New York and then Stockton. You're familiar with Northern California. Yeah. And then she comes, she moves back. And she works atton. You're familiar with Northern California. And then she comes. She moves. And she works at the VA. She works at the VA.

She still works at the VA. As what? Over off Mather. She's a doctor. Oh, doctor. Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah.

But I'm talking about all the life of judging yourself against what you're expected to do. Yeah. What was the expectation? do. Yeah. What was the expectation? I mean, for our community, the expectation is something in the professional field, lawyer, doctor. But for you, what was your dad when you were in junior high? What was he like? What are you thinking about? Yeah, he's like math, science, something like that. Were you doing math and science? Yeah, and I was pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah, I was capable. But not gifted. It it's all relative in comparison to white students i was fucking laughing them we're talking about indian and chinese kids i mean i'm on the lower

rung okay yeah i'm not part of i'm not part of the new faces out of the indians and chinese kids you understand what i'm saying math new faces yeah math new faces robbie prah has picked the top i'm i'm number 13 or 14 right you understand what i'm saying and what was the competition with white kids uh you know insane no No, it's not. No. Because they've been here so long, they have a sense of entitlement. Yeah. So there's just a hunger and drive immigrants just have that.

It's inconceivable to a lot of Americans. And they assume that you're going to lap them. I don't know what they think. But doesn't that become part of the prejudice? What's the prejudice? That these guys are so smart. That these guys are the smart ones. They're not wrong.

No. Mark. I know. Mark, they go hard in the paint. And they do. Yeah. What do you want me to do about it, Brandon? Yeah.

Yeah. But was there, like, I mean, on top of just basic racism, you had to deal with, you know, anti-nerdism as well. Sure. I mean, the world that I came into was the sort of world of the Patriot Act and the War on Terror. That was, that kind of shaped my life and my relationship in America. And I think now I'm 36 and now I'm seeing that I have, we have enough time and we're looking at the vestiges of it as we've, you know, left Iraq Afghanistan and and we've kind of looked at government surveillance in a new way that is something that when I was 15 or 16 years old people didn't really talk about or know no you were just the enemy correct yeah

and I was you know my dad was very involved in the community it was one of those things where it was not uncommon for the FBI and the feds to embed in the community you'd have a lot of uh federal agents all of a sudden convert to Islam. Hi, I'm brother Eric. Really? Shit like that. Oh, yeah. And you talk in that early special about the event of active racially driven vandalism.

Sure, sure, sure. Your two opinions, the way you saw it and the way he saw it. You as a born American, him as this is the hit we have to take to live here. Yeah. And both of those, I think, philosophical opinions are valid. And I think America is still dealing with that. The way things are and the way things ought to be. Yeah.

And my dad over-indexes on the way things are. And now that I'm a dad, I'm like, yeah, I do see his perspective a lot clearer. So the arc of your relationship with him, there doesn't seem to be a point where he was ever going to draw a real line with you and say, if you do this, you're out, or you can't do this. No, I think the big tough conversation, I think it was around like 2012,

my LSAT score was expiring. And that was the real fork in the road. He wants you to be a lawyer? Yeah, well, at that point I had finished poli-sci. I had a live LSAT score was expiring and that was the real fork in the road he wanted you to be a lawyer? yeah well at that point I had finished Poli Sci I had a live LSAT score it expires after 5 years I'm living in Los Angeles I'm staring at you from the rear corners

of the comedy store and you're friends with Fahim I like Fahim a lot Fahim's really funny Fahim's extremely funny so there's a crew There's a crew of you East Asian guys

Yeah and we're making YouTube videos How many are you? About four or five Who are the other ones? Me, Asif Ali, Aristotle Who's now on SNL Yeah

Asif, Fahim Four of us Yeah yeah And we kind of would meet At commercial auditions And be like They're not going to book us Right?

Yeah And then you got a pizza Yeah then we got a pizza At a commercial And just yeah We started just doing That was our kind kind of alternative comedy moment just okay let's make our own video and your dad's up there saying like when are you gonna what are you doing yeah when are you gonna take your bar exam when are you gonna go to law school or apply to law school

and funny enough i did apply and i was waitlisted and where at ucla and usc yeah yeah and that was a really tough conversation of like i'm not gonna go you knew you weren't gonna go of course so you just you applied just to placate him yeah you know what's funny man i was hanging on to the greg giraldo dream yeah i knew giraldo dimitri these guys were they were but they were licensed giraldo was licensed yeah no he was a licensed practicing attorney yeah but i was like hey so was al lubell oh yeah yeah there's just a few attorneys there's another one too what was that guy's name in New York? But yeah, go ahead. But you could have been an attorney, too, Mark.

I don't. My brain, as smart as it may be, is not that disciplined. I don't know that I could have. I could have if I applied myself. You don't think you had the brain to argue as a public defender? Oh, no, sure. But I would never have thought. I never had an active thought about it.

Sure, sure. Once I graduated college, I was like, well, I'm going i'm gonna do this comedy yeah and i didn't know how to and you you fully embraced for several decades how do i hurt myself more than help myself well no i don't think that i i think that that was just the nature i don't know that anyone embraces that you mean that was just the time that those were the times doing coke and all that crazy shit you know like i have a you know a substance abuse compulsion and it made me feel better uh you know i did have heroes who were drug people but it wasn't like it wasn't like i didn't feel like i was doing it for an effect can

you explain that to me i've never understood and maybe it's because i'm a square i've never understood the thing of doing the drug that hurts you I totally get the effective drugs Like I get why Alex Rodriguez And Barry Bonds did roids You want to smack that fucking ball out of the stadium I don't know which ones you're saying hurt me Like you know weed doesn't really hurt you

It kind of gets your brain kind of like Hey everything your perception gets a little Amplified and everything's kind of crispy I don't get the MDMA I don't get all that stuff MDMAMA, it wasn't really around yet. I get coffee. I get Adderall. I get things that kind of put you. Oh, Coke's like that. Sure, yeah. Coke and Speed. Adderall is Speed. Gotcha. Yeah, that's the kind of drug that you would like. You get your brain going fast.

That's Indian steroids. Yeah, exactly. And booze is booze. But no, I mean, I was always just trying to get to myself. I mean, that was my journey as a comic is that like there was a purity to it. Like I was like, I'm not in this to be an entertainer. I want to figure out how to say what I want to say and have the space to say it. And I decided comedy was the place to do that. So it was a matter of me, you know, finding myself. Yeah. You know, and drugs were just part of that. Yeah. So it was a matter of me, you know, finding myself. Yeah.

You know, and drugs were just part of that. Yeah. And it just, I just found myself maybe a year ago. Took a long time. Well,

most people become a caricature of themselves, which is what makes them successful. You know, I don't, I didn't know how to do that on purpose. So either it happens

just by nature or by time, but most guys are not really that authentic. They're doing an act. Oh, interesting. And there are certain guys that show a vulnerability that they can't help, but they're rare.

And cranky guys usually are a little more vulnerable than guys who have their shit together. I mean, this is an act. You are doing an act. Sure. And part of the reason you do comedy is defensive. So it's not like you're offering your whole heart there. And I'm a guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, so I had to figure that out. So I went through a very angry time, and then it kind of softened up. Right.

But it really, it's like not everybody does, hardly anybody does comedy the way I choose to go about it. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Get your act. Right? Yeah. I mean, you really, this very reminds me of a Shandling-like way of approach of it.

You're like, no, this is a lifelong journey of discovering myself. Yeah, I mean, I didn't plan it that way, but I also didn't understand show business. I was just sort of like, all I knew was I wanted to do comedy, and I didn't want to do anything else, and there was really nothing else I could see doing. Yeah, and you know, it was scary maybe the way I saw it is a little bit different than you yeah in the sense that As there's this take that I kind of have where I go this country was built on on one of two principles either Entrepreneurship or murder sometimes a little bit of both, right? Yeah, hello Raytheon. Yeah, or whatever. Yeah, but I go, you know

My community kind of came in and really embraced entrepreneurship and when it clicked for me when i was with the guys when i was with all those goatface guys i was like goatface was the sketch which was our sketch group yeah i was like we're gonna have to build our way out of it and i think homecoming king my new show came out of that too of hey we're just gonna build this on our own and we're gonna find our way out of your experience as east indian guy sure to build this on our own and we're going to find our way out of your experience as east indian guy sure and east asian yeah and they're they're middle eastern and muslim it's just a combination of of of melon in there right and we're just going to

build our way out of it and and i think what's really beautiful is as i hit my 30s there was a whole there was millions of people who came of age that now want to see that show. So if you go to my show or Ali Wong's show, you look out into that audience, that audience, you would not see that audience at the comedians of comedy show. No. Right. And it's a, no, but it's a really a beautiful thing. It's like, it's really representing this new Russell. Sure.

I mean, Russell was the guy. Sure. That, you know, this sort of broke that through the generally the sort of broad spectrum brown crowd that wasn't black. Yes. Yes. Yes. So that that's all of it. And Gabriel Iglesias has really done that for the Latin community.

And when you go out to those shows, you're just like, no, this is America, too. And it's more America. Yeah. If you look at just sheer numbers sure but i think what's what's happening right now is we're breaking that kind of hegemony of like oh who who how who now has cultural cachet to push the button and make it happen in terms of distribution yeah studio movies crazy rich asians big tv shows master of the mindy project these sort of things of oh it's being put through the pipes of Hulu and Netflix.

And I'm very lucky to now be part of that era. And also, we're also in the era where if you have the wherewithal to sort of pull your audience together, to corral them through whatever means you have at your own disposal, you do it yeah you know but i don't it's very hard for me to i can't figure out ultimately what the bigger cultural you know uh impact or or who can make it like it's not really my world unfortunately my my audiences are are roughly some manifestation of my disposition they're not really a demographic so they range in age they're they're generally intelligent they're kind of cranky it's not that diverse a bunch yeah yeah uh but uh but they're they're smart yeah and and they they're nervous yeah but so are they bigger or smaller now you say now that you're doing these because

i notice you're doing clubs and smaller theaters that's just a workout shit that's the workout yours but it might i top off if you wanted to do Radio City, I could. I think I'd top off in New York. I filled Carnegie and I filled the Beacon, but I think that that's about it. Even in 2012, 2013, 2014? No, no, nothing. No, that didn't happen for years. I mean, when did I do Carnegie Hall?

A few years ago. It wasn't until 18, 19. So your draw has actually increased. Yes. Of course. Gotcha. That's great. Because, you know, no one knew what to do with me.

And then because of the podcast, people understood the expansiveness of my personality because people tried to box me in. Yeah. Like, you're the angry guy. And I wasn't. I was just angry. It was not a character.

You know, I had to temper myself. Uh-huh. So when do you start doing comedy in Davis? When do you start going to Sack Punch? I was a freshman in college. Yeah. And I saw this movie called Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle. Yeah.

And it just blew my mind. Yeah. And I was like- You were like, I can be that. Yeah, I could be. Yeah. And it just was so cool to see. Again, I'm looking at this poster behind you, this Rolling Stones poster, and I'm walking past Holiday Cinema in downtown Davis.

Yeah. And it clicked for me. I was like, oh, it's possible. So I just had a very small worldview. I did not think it was conceivable or possible. Do you see what I'm saying? Sure. You have to see somebody who you can kind of see yourself in to be like.

It wasn't a standup. It was Harold and Kumar. It was Cal Penn. Yeah. And I go, oh, I can do this. That this that was in 2004 the following year in 2005 Russell blows up yeah he becomes a huge deal yeah then a few years later my senior year of college there's a kid named Aziz Ansari yeah he's blowing up right I go my god man Eugene Merman yeah likes Aziz yeah Mark Maron likes Aziz Aziz Ansari is doing comedy death ray yeah it just seemed crazy to me

so that represented a possibility it could happen now to my dad he had no idea what any of this stuff was of course but it was starting and my parents didn't yeah they still didn't know but in my mind i was like okay it can it can happen it could happen well that thing you say about parents in general that's an age thing and a technology thing i mean you know i no matter how much of a career i had you know i don't think my father has figured out how to listen to the podcast yet. So it might not ever happen. But fathers are weird. We've established that.

So you just start doing the open mics at that fucking Sacramento Punch. At Sac Punch, yeah. And then I start going out to San Francisco. I start driving to San Francisco. And I'm living at home at the time. Who's doing open mics? Are you going to shows at the Sac Punch? Yeah, I would go to the Tuesday night, you know, open mics. But did they

roll you into like opening position there? Did you open? Yeah, I had to get Molly to kind of pass me. You know Molly Schmink? Who I'm still like, oh man, she still gives me like the, does Molly like me? Does Molly not like her? Oh yeah. When I was there she was like 16. I wanted Molly to. She didn't have power. I still, if Molly you're listening to this I still want you to like me so bad because I remember she would. She didn't have power. I still, if Molly, you're listening to this, I still want you to like me so bad because I remember she- She'll never let on. I know.

She would, she'd be like, Brent Weinbach, Moshe Kasher, Ali Wong, Kamau Bell. And I'm like, come on, pick me. Oh, wow. You had all those. I wanted to be picked so I'm open for me. Yeah. All those people. Yeah.

And I go, man, if Molly likes me, I'll get a good weekend. But did she eventually? Yeah. Molly, like eventually eventually kind of. I just remember, man, staying at that goddamn hotel across from there and going to that fucking mall. I used to work up there. Did you think you were good early on? Did you think you were good?

Because when I watch old clips of you, either you're masquerading, you have an incredible amount of, like, low self-esteem, and you're masquerading like you have a ton. I was angry, and I thought I had a point. So point so like i knew i was saying things that weren't being said i knew i was relatively original but but i i don't think i had control of the thing like i i used to say that like for the first however many years it takes you know about 75 to 80 of the job is pretending that you're not afraid so i think i went into it very aggressively yeah and i thought i was doing something yeah i don't know that i would say i was good but i do believe i i i was uh i do believe i deserved things i was driven by spot can i ask you something like really blunt yeah were you like i'm better than patricia neil no no like i'm better than bill burr for real for real back then back then no i think that i like did you honestly be like i can crush harder than these guysr? For real, for real. Back then? Back then. No, I think that I-

Like, did you honestly be like, I can crush harder than these guys? I know I can. I never thought in terms of crushing. It always made me nervous. I really thought in terms of, you know, can I make this thing land? Got it. And at that time, Bill and Patrice were, they're younger than me, and I don't really remember seeing-

So you did not see them as threats? No, people that were threatening to me were people like a towel, you know, people like, you know, and they were only threatening in that I didn't want to follow them in New York. It wasn't, you know what I mean? And also like they were getting work on the road and I just wanted to get work. I never, like I never liked the whole dick fight of it. I don't. You never had the, almost like the way, you know, rappers have beef.

No, I can't do that. My records are better than your records. I can't do that thing. Oh. So yours better than your records. I can't do that thing. Oh. So yours was just jealousy and envy in regards to opportunity. Yeah. Oh, got it.

And I always, like, I always, I envied their structure or their joke writing process. I was always very hard on myself about, you know, like, why can't I come up with that kind of shit? Because my process is what it is. Yeah. And I've had to accept it over the years, but I still do that.

Do you know like why can't I write as good a joke as that or why can't I think this through or why can't I structure something like that but I don't give myself enough credit either

but so I was always down on myself more than I was competing. I think your unlock would have been if you had just embraced collaboration more. Well that's probably right.

Just like you know like in basketball. In what sense? Well like there's certain things that you do incredibly well all you have to do is have a counterweight of perhaps somebody else yeah but but stand-up was never about that and i actually fought against that i'm like that we're the we're the cowboys man we're we're out here on our own we're out here fucking it's just me on the planes who don't we're gonna you know get together with a group and fucking uh-huh figure out a

little show it's like that's not what a fucking stand-up is yeah but then as i started like hanging out with more headliners that are really doing it and that are lifers sure right then you go up to them and you go like hey man i don't want to be too forward but you know you could tag that bit with uh yeah yeah but or or i would just see like everybody that I liked that was really working, Rock, Birbiglia, all these guys would exchange tags and hey, like what do you think? Well, that happens. I mean, I'm not adverse to that. Yeah.

Yeah, occasionally someone will come up to me and give me a tag. Or they would work with like, you know, in the case of Mike, who I've loved for such a long time, he'd work with Seth Barish and they would collaborate together. So stuff like that where I'm like, yeah, why don't we work like musicians? Because we're not musicians. But we are.

Well, then get a writing staff. You had one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there were guys that do that all the time. That's different. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm talking about a guy, when you're in Highland Park,

and you're like, you know, Magical gets my brain. Or so-and-so Tom Papa gets my brain. Let's work it out. Let's work it out. And let's actually like put it out on a piece of paper and go Tom, let's go. Let's have a writing session. Let's actually talk about this. Help me out with

my act. I'll help you out with yours. Yeah. Versus like, are we really just going to like watch porn all day and jack off and like, you know what I'm saying? Two hours. Yeah. All day. Not all day. Walk around a little bit. Sure. But i'm talking about all the hours of shame you're not talking about that either i don't but yeah what what that hours of life so but no i mean i'm open to that yeah but it was not a practice yeah so okay so let's go back so you start you start getting work at the at the punchline punchline yeah so she starts starts using you. Yep. So do you lock in?

How do you start to build? You come down here, someone takes you on the road with them. What was the next phase? So the big inflection point for me was in 2008. Do you remember the San Francisco Comedy Competition? Yeah, I came in second in 94. Who came in first? Carlos Alvaro.

Okay. I know Carlos. Of course. I started doing those things. I did it when it was still like a thing. It was a big thing. Yeah, but by the time you did it, it must have been terrible. Yeah, I did another thing. Look at those fucking numbers.

I know. I'm trying to understand it. It's crazy. Dumb. I did a thing called Best Comedy Jam. And every year, Wild 94.9, which is a big radio station, did a thing called Comedy Jam. And they had a competition where they made the local openers

all the local SF guys compete with each other so that was a big inflection point in 2008. I won that and then I got to open at the Comedy Jam and then in 2009

I saw that as a sign okay I'm going to move to LA. Right. Okay. So you're like I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go. I got

how much time did you have like 20? Yeah like 30. And I was doing NACA's. Strong middle. Oh you 20? Yeah, like 30. And I was doing NACAs. Strong middle. Oh, you're doing the NACAs. I was doing NACAs. See, now this is the thing.

So I had a week 60 and I had a decent 25. Right. But you were also like an ambitious fuck, right? So like, you were like, you know, I'm going to make this business work. See, that's what you bring to it. Like from whatever your dad gave you. Yeah. You, from the beginning.

Yes. You saw this as a business. Well, were you going to die of poverty? No, but I never understood the business. It wasn't a matter of poverty. I was not savvy. Like I didn't do any prep work. I just thought at some point, if I was great, I would be rewarded.

Yeah. Like I was that dumb. So you thought Doug Herzog would descend from the mountain and go. They do. You. They do. They did. They did or they do?

They did. But they still do kind of. Yeah. But the thing is, is that if you were in the right city. Yes. They do do that. Yes. And it wasn't necessarily him.

I ended up pissing him off for fucking a decade. Why? Just because? No, I said something when he, I said something on stage when he got the job running Comedy Central. And apparently, I've been told after the fact, it caused some real fucking shit. I'm very good at saying one thing no i never built a coalition i mean i've run a show yeah my show and i'm pretty nice but i always see myself as an employee even when my name's on the fucking car yeah i don't get it bro whatever yeah wait i mean it's because i'm not greedy and my ambition is like my ambition is more to self-actualize in a way where the biggest gift for me if i'm like now i'm doing these hour hour and a half shows yes where i'm improvising which is how i build a show

yes so the biggest thing for me is when out of nowhere a thing comes you know because i'm riffing and the thing comes and i'm like that's the thing where'd that come from i don't know yeah and so when those moments happen, happened last night. Just like, I'm working a bit, I'm working a bit, I'm working a bit. I know it's not quite right,

but the timing's good. It's killing. And then boom, this other piece falls in. I'm like, where'd that come? That's the fucking work for me. Yeah.

You're a back against the wall type of guy. I'm a working on stage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a vomit it out in the Google doc. Then I'll riff it out with friends. Yeah. And I'll be candid. I'm going to vomit it out in the Google Doc. Then I'll riff it out with friends. Yeah.

And I'll be candid. I have so many friends that are exponentially funnier than me. Fahim is so much funnier than me. Yeah, he's a funny guy. He's a fucking funny. Fahim Anwar is one of the best, I think, comics in the game. Well, that's because he's like, you know, he's- His brain works that way. But he's also, he's not afraid to be goofy.

Yeah. You're, you know, tight, man. I know, man. That's my biggest thing. I'm trying to embrace being looser. Yeah. How's that going? You tell me, Mark.

Well, I mean, I want you to see the new hour. I want you to see the new show. I'm doing it. But so like the idea though, the ambition of it. Yeah. That you saw it as a business. So you come down to LA. Yeah.

And you're like. And it's not working. No?'s not working when i come to la you know there's how are you how's the stage work are you getting laughs are you crushing no i wasn't really crushing and and you know why i think it's actually the note that you gave is that like i i think i my the biggest problem that i that i've had, and I'm still, you know, this journey is like never ending. I've been doing it now, what, fucking 17 years? Is I was just too in my head about it. I really was like, you gotta, it's this joke and then this joke and this joke and this joke. And Mark, you hit it right on the head.

People are like, yeah, he's tight. And then someone like Rory Scovel will go up, who I love Rory. Yeah. And Rory will fucking just knock down all these walls and just be like what the fuck are this is yeah he embraced the cosmic joke yeah and so to me i wasn't doing that that well and yeah and my real breakthrough moments were the moments where i was i had structure but then i also played jazz and it was just real like oh huston's just going off the top of the dome.

And being able to play. You did some riffing? I think my Daily Show audition was a real breakthrough moment for me like that. But like, what's the jazz that you said you were doing? The jazz is like, you got, you know, people think jazz is all, it's not. There's actually structure to it.

But then there's moments, there's little pockets in the set where you go, no, I can deploy this aha moment. Yeah. You know know but you can you can what just riff a little go out riff a little poke fun at mark poke fun at whoever that's the thing like like with someone like fahim yeah he's a goofball yeah but he's very intelligent yeah so the mixture of intelligence and goofy you know it's it's it's it's a gift truly see like the difference between you two guys is that you have something to prove and it's never going to go away yeah and that you know i don't know

you know i don't know if it's a control freak thing or what but like you know you're going to win it's a fear thing no but but the way you're framing that is philosophically i don't see it as a zero-sum game i see it as a game of I don't want to be – I don't want to work at OfficeMax again. No. Well, you're not going to. See, the thing is, Mark, so many people have told me that. I don't believe it. And until I truly believe it –

Well, no, I get it. I've made some money and I don't spend it because I don't want to – I'm a comedian. And it's like if you have money in the bank, you're like, oh, God, I better hold on to it. I know because they're going to take it away. It's all going to go away. Yeah. They're not going to take it away. I'm just – it go away. Yeah. They're not going to take it away. I'm just, you know, it's just going to, you know, work is not going to happen.

Yeah. So that's my thing, is just embracing. So really, it's a starvation mentality? It's not a- A little bit. A little bit. I mean, if you want me to be honest, it's the thing of just like, you don't want to be one of those guys of like, oh, yeah, that was the guy from the Daily.

What happened to him? Sure. Whatever happened to him? No, right. That's the winning i really do want different yeah and i really do want like it's different though that's not star vision mentality it's like how do i stay relevant and keep fucking winning that's not like i hope i don't run out of money artistically artistically yeah artistically yeah like yeah i want you can't

you have any control over the whatever happened i want mark i want mark to see the new show and go he's not as tight. Oh, the kid kind of impressed me. Because your assessment of the first show is the way Paul Provenza assessed it. He goes, okay, it's cute. You didn't go to prom. I get it, kid. That's not what I said.

But I want Provenza to see it now. Because you guys are a little bit older and I want Provenza to go, oh, he's got some fucking bars. No, what I said is, is that you were calculating in the structure and you were emotionally manipulative. Yes. And you knew it. And the fact is that some of this shit was darker than you let on. Sure.

And that there was no way that this is how you controlled the emotional fucking history of your life. Yes. And you picked your beats and structurally it was great. And Mark's not interested in any of it. No, no, I loved it. You know, I got teared up. You know, I thought it was nice. You know, I'm an emotional guy.

Yeah. But like, but I don't, but maybe from where I'm sitting. Yeah. You know, I, you know, I've tried to do that kind of stuff. Yeah. And I know the edge of emotion where people are going to go away or when it's sad. And I'm playing with that shit now around the death of my girlfriend right so like you know i can take you know like i know these limits but yeah like

i don't know how far in the construction of that stuff or what you had to really risk uh can i tell you what it is and i actually think it's a strength even though you're not seeing it that way no i'm sure it is i mean i'm not i'm not it's it's, it's like, it's like, what's the point? Sure, sure, sure. You're being artistically honest. Now let's, let's see it in terms of what do these 400 people think? And I think, I think one of the things that I,

that I, I learned at the daily show on my show was, okay, bring it home. What is the point? And I think too often comics and you, and you know, you know this way better than I do. Cause you've, you've been know this way better than i do because

you've you've been doing this longer than me maybe sometimes abuse the audience man like it's one of those things where they don't they truly don't give a fuck what they think we can't we came up at a different time and there's different types of comics yeah there's guys that'll get that'll go up there do two two and a half three hours they don't need to do three hours of course but there's also just abuse the audience well but there's also the idea of it's like, okay, so you spend a lot of time, you know, when you come up and people don't know who you are. Yeah. And like we said at the beginning of this, you know, all these people at open mics, artists and weirdos and whatever, is that all your responsibility is, is to figure out who you are on that stage and how to do the job. It doesn't matter what you do within that but it's your territory so in that process where no one knows who you are either you're going to be the

guy that goes on the road and and puts out his fucking you know email cards and says you know follow me here do this there you know you know i'll send you a newsletter i'm going to be back in six months or you're going to be a guy who's sort of like let's see what the fuck this is who the fuck are these people no yeah in the long run i don't think it's a binary i'm that guy i'm not no no i'm not saying you i'm not saying you are i'm just saying that pushing the limits of an audience like when you just said that you know when you say what do these four people want it's like i don't i still talk about that it's like is am i an entertainer you know is that what i'm doing am i an entertainer and i'm not criticizing you look your show was tight. It was effective.

It had a message. Like, you know, the punchline at the end was very clever. It was good. The story was good. You lucked out with these life things and you organized them. I'm not criticizing that. I'm just saying that, you know, there is a big difference between, you know, what you put out in the world and who you are personally i got you and and i understand that too what hey that's private dude it's private yeah so what what

responsibility do i have as an artist to fucking show them the real shit sure my job is to make this thing sure sure right yeah and there's also you know by the way you saw 72 minute version of the show you know it was it was clocking in at 100 sure so there were some moments where you're just like okay look i'm sure man there was some moments where you just really you were crying and you couldn't stop yeah i was and you're yelling and screaming yeah just really bawling bawling up there did you do you ever do this your shows say an hour 40 and you you honestly show it to your contemporaries and your friends and you go just be honest and there's bits that you love that you're like oh

i fucking love this which show any of your shows how many hours have you done at this point five six seven yeah yeah and they go some of them are longer yeah and hour 90s well as i get older and you know as i sort of started to embrace structure a little more and, and, and not use, uh, kind of, uh, improvising as a, as a cop-out, you know, like the last three specials have been pretty tightly structured and two of them I worked with Lynn on and she, and I trusted her as a director, you know, she directed them. So like, you know, we, and I know when something doesn't fit and when it does, like right now I'm trying to put together this hour 10, hour 15.

It's coming in like hour 20. And I know like, you know, like, well, this can't be at the end. And, you know, like, what are you trying to say with this? And do you need to lighten this up? Do you know what the ontological truth and reality is of her like of her passing and the way you've mourned it? Like what what are you ultimately what's if you were to distill it? What is it that you're trying to say? Oh, about that?

Yeah, specifically. Well, I mean, that's where i that's what i start with and i know ontological truth what do you know yeah and and if you boil it down to its essence it's pure emotional espresso what is it that you are saying i i know what it is you know and i know what i'm saying but what becomes tricky in in the same with what you're doing and the balance you're making is like, like this is a selfish pursuit we're in. Sure. Right. So what we're talking about is our experience of anything. Like when you talk about your father or that woman that, that jilted you in high school or whatever, you're going to have to weigh the repercussions or, or, or, you know, you either you respect them or you don't. Yeah. And then you got to balance that out. You know, at what point is this disrespectful and at what point do I not give a shit anymore?

Right. So that always becomes the tricky part about dealing with anger, grief, loss, or whatever. You don't want to disrespect the person and you don't want to be too sad. But the ontological truth is, like, I was learning how to love somebody for the first time in my life, and that person died. All right? And, like, I spent my life, you know, not being ready for that or able to do that because of how I was brought up. And all those are different ontological truths. So, you know, how do I deal with that and how do I move on?

So that's what that is. Do I exist in an emotional space with another person again ever in the way that I was going to happen? You know what I mean? Because I wasn't that great before her. So that's that ontological truth. So like balancing jokes about that and feeling the need to talk about them is just because that's what I do. I talk about myself. Like it's very hard for me. Like the gift that you have that if I envy anything is to be general about things you know like for me it's all got to go through me first yeah you know my observational capacity is limited to my emotional interaction yeah but you're talking about a deeply specific moment but the

the umbrella is mourning sure yeah and grief and grief for sure like it's incredibly like not human yeah human i'm and as you're saying general but i'm like what are you talking about no that's it's like tell i'm telling you man this is the first time in my life i i've never gotten more people saying that i'm relatable in my life yeah you know when it comes down to this stuff and so is yours but i'm just saying that i don't like i get nervous when I start doing cultural criticism or even political jokes because, you know, I can do them well. Totally. In my mind, it's like someone else is doing this.

Sure. It's like this is going to be done. Yeah. And if you want to log on Twitter, you can get. Sure. Right. Yeah. And it's sort of like I got to avoid that.

Yeah. Like that was my that was my whole point in my shift around doing the podcast and doing comedy the way I do it is like if I talk about myself, no can have that correct yeah so yeah that's the way to go so wait now when you so who'd you lock on to who are the big lessons dude you end up opening for you know to get your chops in place like when did you start to realize how to you know fulfill your ambition in terms of uh performing did you open for Russell did you open yeah Russell was super sweet he let me open for him even guys like arj barker were really kind but i think i i quickly realized none of these guys have the answer every headliner whether it's kamau or arj or russell or whoever i'd open for who came to town you would try you would try to be like do you have the unlock code of what of of success how do you how do you how do you earn a living in this

business oh right yeah it's a real thing man yeah like how do you how do you have health insurance how do you have a house i'm sitting in a house no i believe me i answer i ask the same questions forever yeah yeah and i never can you believe this mark as as tight as you think i am i do i don't even own property i'm a still renting. I'm that afraid. It's stupid, Mark. That's interesting. But what I'm saying- Why is there a drop off in intelligence there?

I know. But what I'm saying is there is such a deep, hey, this industry is so treacherous and unknown and nothing is guaranteed. Hey, just keep your wits about you and keep the cash in the in the mattress because you never know no i get that when it'll all go i understand that but like so but all these lessons are lessons you have to learn as an adult correct and you have to learn it for yourself yes furthermore your path is different than my path is different than ali's path is different than everybody's path you know what i'm saying yeah i'm a and that's the thing

i'm also realizing i'm a plotter i'm a chipper a weigher I just keep pushing like yeah it's a miracle that I it was a it's a second half dude it wasn't looking good yeah

there was no there was no daily show moment do you feel like it's all gonna be okay though I mean when Obama's sitting in the cat ranch

I'm sure you feel like it's gonna be alright no what you mean financially and everything no no no because you still fear it's gonna not now but i did like you know i've saved some money and you know and you know this thing turned out to be better than we all thought

yeah and i can you know do the road and make some money doing tv and i'm acting and shit but i but i know that i have money saved and i know that i don't have any debt and i don't i don't have a family yeah so like what it becomes now for me is, like, well, what do you want to do with your fucking life then? Yeah. How do you find joy? What's the point of all this? And what's the answer? It's coming.

I like to cook, play some guitar. Yeah. You know, fuck. Make stuff. Make chicken stock. Well, yeah, I'll do that. I love to, yeah. It keeps me distracted.

It keeps the darkness away. You don't want family, right? Do you want a family? Not really. Not really. Okay. You know, I'm okay. You know, I'm all right. All right. But what about, yeah, it keeps me distracted. It keeps the darkness away. You don't want family, right? Do you want a family? Not really. Not really. Okay. You know, I'm okay. You know, I'm all right.

All right. But what about, so with you though, even after The Daily Show, even after, you know, you've got some money stashed. Sure. But you built a life. Yeah. I got a wife. I got two kids.

Yeah. I have a life. Yeah. So you weren't even that big a standup when you got The Daily Show. No. You just kind of, you know, John liked you. No, I had put together, you know, shout out to Aristotle. We put together an audition tape.

I really thought I could be good on this thing. Yeah, okay. And we- You watched it. I watched it. Yeah. And I had been making kind of these videos that were somewhat taking off online. Yeah.

A few hundred thousand views where I would like go to camera one and I would kind of analyze something that was happening that week and Aristotle would shoot them and we'd edit them and they put them out. And then, you know, when Michael Che left to go back to SNL, there was an opening. Yeah. And I really felt I can do this. Right. And so I just gunned for it. And I, you know, I got to give Al credit.

I ran into Al at the Pasadena Ice House and I said, what should I do? And he said, listen, man, when you're a correspondent on the show, you're going to have to do a ton of field pieces yeah so i shot my own field piece and i submitted my audition and right and i so it was a bigger deal than you went on on the special huge like you know i mean i'm telling the story i make it a big fucking deal in the special but it was an even bigger but like the prep of it like in the special you didn't go through all yeah yeah um you were you know you were locked in gunning for it i go look man i'm not a sick i mean i was i didn't book the sitcom again i was told the rule was you go book a sitcom i can't i never did yeah i didn't

you know you know what's so funny about the rules is that there is no such fucking thing as the rules no but back in the day that was that was like the mind but that was vague that you know back in the day the idea was you get your. But that was vague. Back in the day, the idea was you get your point of view and then you get a deal to develop a show around you. Sure.

That was the model for the big success. Sure, until somebody broke that rule again. Yeah, until you get, well, your generation, you know, it's different. I mean, that rule

on some level even holds up through Louis and through everybody else. But you broke the rule in 2011. I mean, that rule on some level even holds up through Louis and through everybody else. But you broke the rule in 2011. I don't think you can see yourself. Every open mic-er was listening to the pot. It still is. 2000.

What? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, what? This is the Louis C.K. part four interview. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Oh, Mark and Louis are going to really hash. What?

You're sitting down with Robin Williams and he's in San Francisco and he's talking about his heart. Yeah. Do you understand? You are breaking the real fucking rules. Yeah, yeah, fine. Right. But that wasn't like I was going to make a half a billion dollars in syndication.

I wasn't making any money. I don't know. Mark, when you're doing these MeUndies drops, we don't know how much money you're making. Oh, it's a billion dollars, buddy. Yeah. And what was the other one? The porno. What was that one?

What were those first ones? How can I not remember that? We only had like one. It was like adult toys. The porno. What was that one? What were those first ones? How can I not remember that? We only had like one. It was like adult toys. Whatever. Yeah. Pow. Get your deal.

They weren't even paying. Wow. Like I changed your entire business and they were carryovers from a streaming show that didn't work. But anyways, I get your point. You break the rules. You don't know you were breaking the rules at the time. I didn't know me and Ari and Fahim and we were breaking the rules at the time.

But you're just- Sure, we were at the cusp of a new thing. Yeah, you're just breaking new ground. But that is exciting as an artist. That's what you want to do. I had no expectations. I was desperate and we had no way to, we didn't know how to make money.

Yeah. So that was the moment. They saw it, I screen tested it. And yeah, having that co-sign in New York City changed my life. And then having a co-sign when I was doing the one-man show from Colin Quinn, Colin got me in at the in New York City changed my life. And then having a co-sign when I was doing the one-man show from Colin Quinn, Colin got me in at the Cellar, and that changed my life.

And I owe Colin Quinn a lot. Yeah? I owe both of those guys a lot, yep. All right, so you do how long on The Daily Show? I do about four years there. Four years, yeah. Wow. Yeah, so I did the John years, I did some of the Trevor years,

and then I do the Correspondence Dinner, and it kind of felt time like, okay, it's time for me to move on and maybe do my own thing. To make your move. To do my own thing. Right. And when did you do the show within this, the special? 2017. So after?

It was right, it was like one of my last years at The Daily Show. Right. So things were really clicking in 2017, 2018 for me, you know? And you saw that as like, you know, almost like an introduction to the whole you. Yeah. You know, publicly. Like, you had the opportunity. You had the window. Yeah. that as like you know like almost like an introduction to the whole you yeah publicly like you had the opportunity you had the window yeah well honestly it was the first time and and these these windows are real in life man sure it was it was the first time and you're lucky to get

them you extremely lucky if you don't go if you don't take them you're you're that's the biggest regret yeah yeah if you if you can make a break you get make it you get the call yeah and it's like hey man like i. And it's like, Hey man, like I know what it's like to send the tape in to Conan and not hear back. I know what that's like. Sure. I know what it's like to send the tape in a mantra.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I still have the Vimeo. Yeah. I know. V9. It's just V9. I watched every one of my peers become huge successes.

Yeah. And to this day, I still have that part of me. Really? Yeah. Where it's just sort of like you know when do i get to do the thing so fun why can't i so i got i get the call and i said look like i actually do have an idea and an opinion on what i what i would want my show to be

to netflix yeah and i shot my own proof of concept and kind of did it again it's patriotic patriotic you'd already done the special with them i'd already done the special so they knew you you're on the radar. They liked you. But every time. Unique property. Look, even with Homecoming King, I shot my own mini special at Cherry Lane Theater when I was doing it off Broadway. Right. And showed it to them.

And then they go, okay, I see it. You showed it to Robbie? At the time, Kristen Zollner. And she believed in it. Yeah. She greenlit it. I do owe her a lot. Kristen saw it and was like, oh, I think this is really special.

Robbie wasn't there at the time. Right. And then in 2018 with Patriot Act, i showed it to bella bajaria and she she loved it too and she showed it to ted and and they liked it now i had to and you also had that appeal that they want which is global sure you know like there was a like you know that there was there's this real move there did they really want the audience to- Let's give it a try, yeah. Saudi Arabia to enjoy this. Let's see how it goes. Yes. No, but they were just like,

they saw the proof of concept. They saw the DNA in it. And I think they were like- Of Patriot. Yeah, because I shot it. I put up the money myself. We shot it over at the old Al Jazeera America Studios, RIP.

They had gone out of business, 34th and 8th. And we went in, I brokered a deal with like the room i go hey can i just shoot something here can i use the cameras and i'm really those are the moments i'm proud of the most i'm like hey man nobody told you to do this right like no no booker called you down and said hey kid why don't you do it like no i really had to do what my parents did when they came here like no right we're gonna get this cab medallion or we're gonna open up but oh yeah but

also like but you knew outside yeah but also like you knew outside of the immigrant experience you knew that there was a right of ownership there and that you know you had full control of the thing yes it wasn't just you weren't coming off the boat saying like i i guess we got a lot of people that are you know getting medallions yeah i mean you were literally saying like i want to fucking have control of this yeah i mean it's i i'm not i would be lying to you if i told you even my new show right now like i bought the stage i fucking bought the stage like it's this big ass state right it's the visa wells fargo account here it is yeah right you know yeah but nope but mark for i do that too but for how long did we assume that we're like no no no

the exec is gonna come down and he's gonna's going to tell you to write the check. But your generation, but you assume that? Dude, how many comics have you talked to on this show where they're just like, you know, this person doesn't like me. I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah. What the fuck are you actually talking about? Right.

Well, no, you can't. After a certain point, especially if you're not successful or you're not getting any traction, you can't rely on any of them. And anybody. Because they don't know anything. A lot of them. They will know if they can take a bet on you knowing they won't lose, they'll take it. Yeah. So you have to create leverage.

And that's not on anybody but us. Yeah, but I don't think in those terms. It's all desperation for me. Have you had Chris Rock on the show? Sure. You've had Rock on the show? Yeah, a long time ago. I mean, Rock loves giving advice.

He loves giving me advice. And Rock is always like, man, listen. He said this about his own career. He's like, man, I've outlasted all these guys. I remember all the big execs that would knight you. And he's like, I've been here longer than all of them. And for him to say it that way, then it's like, well, the only consistent variable here is you. Yeah, sure. And I'm a stubborn idiot. And like, you know, I, my, the one thing I've known or my, uh, over time or my limitations and what do I really expect? Like

when I say like, there's still things I would have done, like, I don't know that I'm cut out for certain things. And I have to, you you know admit that to myself sure like there are certain jobs that comics do like to do that that correspondence dinner I would it would be mad making for me it would make me melt down because I don't write like that I'd have to hire the right writers I'd really have to get into a place like I'm really my own thing that has to fit somewhere doesn't I can't does doesn't the opportunity excite you? Like when I saw you in The Joker. Yeah, yeah.

I was like, that's fucking. Well, I like to act, but I don't know. But I was like, that's fucking cool, man. Do a scene with De Niro? It's great. But the opportunity of it, man. Yeah. Come on, Mark.

As like sometimes as angry as you get, you have to sit back and go, holy fuck, New Mexico, Mark. Yeah. You were in fucking Albuquerque, New Mexico. Sure, sure. Is doing a scene with Bobby De Niro. No, I love that. Mexico, Mark. You were in fucking Albuquerque, New Mexico. Sure, sure. He's doing a scene with Bobby De Niro. No, I love that. No, no, that's all.

I'm just talking specifically about the comic job. Sure. Of doing like a corporate gig or doing that specific. But it doesn't make you go crazy that you're like, I'm making fun of the president of the United States of America. Yeah, I mean, I get all that. But I'm just saying, the only example I'm making to you is that there are some gigs that like, and it happens. Sure'm just sort of like you know that would that would i don't

i don't think i could handle it yeah it would suck i get it i get it it's not that it would suck for you make me crazy yeah for you yeah sure but uh and that that keeps me at a certain place like i'm not out for i'm not out to win the world you know like there there's some people that just have that okay like you know russell won the world kevin hartz is to win the world. Uh-huh. You know, like there's some people that just have that. Okay. Like, you know, Russell won the world. Kevin Hartz is going to win the world. Maybe you're going to win the world. I don't know.

Right. But I got to loosen up a little bit before that. Well, tell me about this. The one thing I'm curious about, though, is when you shifted the Patriot Act out of the Daily Show. Yeah. That this was not a comedy writing bunch. Right?

Sure. I mean, like, I mean, they weren't a bunch of comics or anything. They were mostly news people. No, no. It was a hybrid. We had a full writer's room. We had a full newsroom. It was a combo.

It was. Yeah. Is that the way The Daily Show is? Yeah. It's like any of these shows. Last week, tonight, all of them have kind of two different departments. Yeah. You have the pitch news people that are like, hey, here's the story.

Oh, okay. Okay. Here's the raw material. Now you have to distill this down and make it funny within 21 minutes. But yeah, you're distilling these huge research books and being like, okay, how do I make 23 or 24 minutes out of it? So you got people who are deciding what the relevant news stories are for a week. Correct. And then you have joke guys.

Correct. Joke slash structure guys. And so this is a new development too, Mark. Like a lot of those guys, you know, that came from the day. And women. And women. Yeah. Guys and gals. But you have the seven and a half minute act one.

But now with these new types of shows, they've been stretched out into 28 minutes. One topic even. One topic sometimes. Or in the case of our show, we would do that and I'd bounce back and forth between field and then come back. Yeah. One topic even. One topic sometimes. Or in the case of our show, we would do that and I'd bounce back and forth between field and then come back.

Yeah. So yeah, but it's a lot of fucking work. But where did you draw the people from? How did you staff? You know, in New York,

you have, there's the whole- But a lot of them were like journalists too? I don't know how they work. Some of them, yeah, some of them came

from previous outlets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. AP, Re right yeah so they so they get the idea of just like okay hey we're going to talk about student loan debt yeah yeah they're like yeah here here here's the relevant down yeah here's the relevant information that you need then what we do is comics i go so what's the take yeah right what's the take right right so like you you can read how do you land it exactly articles about we need to break up amazon amazon's a monopoly sure right and i i distill it down into the corp take right well i'm lazier than i am so yeah when when so i need the government to save me from myself that's the comedy take right use amazon right daddy needs diapers and bell

peppers and of course so yeah because like i don't know how they work and you know you know stewart and i are not cool sure but uh so i don't know how any of that works so ultimately like and i've never written on one of these shows i've i've just done you know uh you know scripted show yeah so you just sit there like all these like once you break it all down yeah then you know you all sit there and they pitch to you yeah basically i come i come in with a ton of stuff too that i'm like i want to what the fuck is up with student loan debt yeah yeah why is it like 12 trillion every week yeah yeah i'll come in kind of with a head full of steam of just like yeah i want to talk about this this this this and this and then we'll map it out to be like okay how long will it take us to right research it how long like i one thing i was really passionate

about was like uh my family loves cricket. People around the world love cricket, but there's a ton of corruption in cricket. I'm like, oh yeah, it's wild.

It's great. And there's such great characters in it. Cricket. Yeah. On some level that's playing to a bigger audience,

which is good. Sure. Or just like things that I give a shit about. Like why do I have to, why do I have to care about everything? No, no, no.

I'm just saying about the market. Like, because I know that the show pissed off countries. Sure. Yeah. So, like, and that's something that's fundamentally unique in what you were doing. You weren't just dealing with this, you know, cultural tapestry of whatever the fuck's going on in America politically.

Did you find it fulfilling versus my show for you to do your own show called Marin? It's okay. Yeah. I mean, like, I think. Like, compared to that. Like, what's that like? Well, I i mean i was drawing for my life again i was working with writers and we were you know doing some elevated version of my life i think that the last season was kind of interesting i would have liked to have had you know i i made a mistake and i had

a very limited writing staff they were good people but, but I wasn't diversified. I didn't have women in there. What does the mistake mean specifically? Well, I think that the points of view in relation to what could have happened in terms of the stories, I was a little myopic. Gotcha. Given they were my points, that was my place. But if you watch something like Aziz's show where you have many voices, my show wasn't really like that it was really following a singular pov and yeah yeah but i i think that you know there it could have been it was good but i don't want to do me anymore why in uh because i because you did it you're like i did it now like you know we're

working on a show for it looks like it's about to we're about to sell a show me and my the writer uh my friend sam yeah and it's different and it's a bigger broader so you're saying you do know how to collaborate no i do yeah sure i mean i yeah of course i learned how to do that when i wrote a show yeah do you know how to collaborate a little bit sure but like like i talked to david uh chang the other day Yeah. Now, there's a guy who's got, you know, he's carrying a big load upstairs. And you got a little bit of pushback for the work environment that you ran. Sure. Did you deal with that?

Yeah. I mean, what's wild is- People were pissed off. Yeah. And I found out much later. And when we found out, it was something we took super seriously. And it was specifically in regards to a couple people like that people said there was a toxic environment. Yeah, with someone in their department.

People were not getting along in that specific department. And it's one of those things you take super seriously. And it was in regards to people's tone, posture, demeanor, the way they would, you know. Handle other people. Yeah. Collaborate. Collaborate with one another. Yeah.

And I think that's the interesting thing. And you know, this is someone who runs a show. That is one of the things that we are now starting to really traverse with. Of like, hey, how do people creatively disagree with one another? Without being a dick. Correct. Or being abusive. Correct.

Or being a tyrant. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And how do people, what jokes, what takes, what things ultimately make it on the show? Oh, how do you decide what's going to be on the show? The process. There's always going to be creative tension on collaborative teams like that.

So did you have to apologize where amends is made? What happened with your show? Well, unfortunately, the show was over by the time everybody- I mean, still apologize, right? Sure. I wish those- You know what i really wish is i really wish the the folks who like disagreed with one another there was an opportunity because remember it all it this all happened during covet right had an opportunity to come together and be

like hey let's work it out yeah let's work this out yeah yeah like so so one of the the things that also is really interesting that i've learned is hey is the internet a good place for people to come together and work out personal disagreements specifically publicly you know but you get it mark like that that's that's the one thing no i get it but like but no you mean the internet in terms of like zoom meetings or you mean yeah hashing things out both zoom meetings and hashing things out? Both Zoom meetings and hashing things out. Publicly? Or just, you're not talking about the internet as in Twitter because that's no place to hash out personal problems. Well, that's where things are being hashed out now, either through Zoom meetings or through Twitter.

That's where it started. Yeah. So the question is, what's the responsibility as a creator? You do have to issue some sort of public recognition or you don't. Those are the options. Right. Do I cop to this Those are the options. Right. Do I cop to this or do I not? Right.

And if I'm going to cop to it, do I do it publicly or do I call these people? Right. Or do, you know, I mean, yeah, those are questions. And I think that for me, the thing that I've had to learn as like a leader, someone who's on set all the time, is at any given point, there's going to be 100 plus people on set. the time is at any given point there's going to be a hundred plus people on set if i'm not in the room and people are creatively disagreeing yeah how do i make sure as i go forward and now you know i'm working on different sets and i said that are being led by different people yeah how do you adjudicate those things and make sure everybody's getting how do you i don't know i don't know i don't have the answer but it's one of those things where you're just like you're learning and growing

sure have you been on sets that were more magnanimous in the sense of like because now like I know that when I did glow yeah you know that there's a very diverse set you know both you know gender wise and ethnicity wise and and there was a predisposition to respect that we knew this was the endeavor right that it was intrinsic right to the endeavor right that you know that gender and uh ethnicity and that type of diversity this was a safe place and it was embraced no matter what right and that was part of the nature of that show right so and then after the fact some people were like i didn't feel that way i don't know is that true yeah a couple people came out and were like hey i didn't i didn't necessarily feel that way i was on the show so these conversations that was different that was i think those were right in the writing correct i'm more thinking about like the the grips everybody in the in the yeah yeah i think that like the people that felt misrepresented you know didn't get big enough for it's a broadcast i get it correct so how do you but that's that's the goal

right exactly and so so the disagreements fundamentally were in regards to creative hey why is why is this pitch not going through i feel like this person in my department isn't listening to me these are these are things where but you feel but do you feel like there was there something you learned you know like like as you head into this new show you have kids now like is there behavior that either you're carrying with you from your childhood or from your experience and in being a leader that you're like i gotta fucking change this or work on this with i don't want to be the same as these my father was in these certain ways sure i don't want to make the same as my father was in these certain ways. Sure.

I don't want to make the same mistakes again. Do you have that stuff? Sure. I think, I mean, the biggest thing that I've probably learned in this show, now this new show that I'm doing, the group is so much smaller. It's only me, a lighting designer, a stage designer, a director. But I'm talking about in your life. Oh, in my life.

Like in your life as you continue to create and you you continue to collaborate now you have a family yeah have are you consciously saying i'm not going to do this oh you know the big realization i've had man so i got i you know i'm i'm married i have two kids i have a three or one year old one of the biggest things that i've learned is like and tell me what you think about this it's it's something along the, you know, I may not be able to change the world, but I can change my world. Specifically the agency I have in regards to like the way I interact with you, the way I interact with my wife, my kids.

And those are the things that I can actively really change. You know what I'm saying? And what are some of those things that you deal with every day where you're like, I gotta not do this, I gotta do this. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. yeah i mean do you have moments with your kids where you're like oh i don't accountability reliability coming through in in ways that i really mean like right if i promise being on my wife hey i'm gonna do this anger i'm gonna be back do i have anger yeah of course is that something you have to manage the The biggest thing, man, is energy, man.

Like, it's really like there's so many people and things that are pulling me in a million different directions. So you have to maintain a certain compartmentalization. Yeah. And not get to the point where you're like, fuck! Correct. Correct. But it's ultimately like, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot. This age that we live in where we're

all kind of mini media companies and we're all like mini pr machines is signaling being a good person versus actually being a good person sure that's what yeah sort of like yeah i mean that's the big thing like when when you get criticism uh and you're you know a representative of a progressive state of mind and also on a personal level, we were talking about the act and the personal life. Sure. There is those two worlds. Sure.

And that's the thing that I, what I've tried to do is go, I want to take full responsibility for everything, especially with my family. Yeah. Hey, am I a good husband? Yeah. Am I a good son?

Am I a good friend? Yeah. Ask for him. Yo, is he a good guy? Yeah. You know him. He's like my brother. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. He's going to say you're a good guy? Am I a good friend? Ask Fahim. Yo, is he a good guy? Like, you know him. He's like my brother. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, he's going to say you're a good guy. Hey, you know this. You've known comics a long time. No, I know. Like, hey, man, I know Mark. Sure. Like, I actually know Mark. But like, I'll say to Fahim, is Hasan a good guy?

He'll be like, yeah, he's a great guy. I'm like, but he's kind of, you know, like, sometimes, I mean, you could probably chip it. And that'll be real. But that'll be real. And that's a fair assessment. Yeah. Versus you have like these guys that are just like, no, sometimes, I mean, you could probably chip it away. And that'll be real. But that'll be real. And that's a fair assessment. Yeah, yeah. Versus you have like these guys that are just like, no, no.

Oh, great guy. Yeah, everything is being signaled on Instagram a certain way. And then they're like, yeah, he runs a show and he doesn't pay comics. You're like, what the fuck? Yeah, I know. That guy, he's one of those guys? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So those are the things that I think I'm like- Trying to work on. Yeah, that it's like, no, that's what actually matters. So, and I know that sounds like trite, but it's true. No, no, it's not because it all, it, it all builds on it. You know, like, you know, I know what my specific fucking shortcomings are, what my problems are and what I've had to work on because I've seen real world consequences of, of my behavior. Yeah.

And you've been, you know, you've been married know you've been married you've been in relationship but you know that you're like hey their assessment of me perhaps is somewhat they really do know me i've been an asshole there's no doubt i've been like a colossal asshole and i you know but you know life grinds you down karma grinds you down sure you know humility comes yeah you know you just you know it's nice when it's gradual and not in one swift action right there you go you have been humbled you fuck you don't it's better if it just happens subtly yeah good talking to you man good talking to you so this is for the tour you're getting you're on you're heading out i'm on tour are you gonna balance the uh family

that you go back you're going back and forth. I go back and forth, man. That's what I'm talking about. Where you're like, how are you feeling? I'm exhausted, man. But you do like, what are you doing? One, two night runs? Three night runs?

And then you go home? Yeah. Right. And then November, I'm gone all of November. So I'm going to be on the tour bus. And that's going to be wild. Oh. You're doing the tour bus?

Yeah. All theaters? Theaters. One-nighters. Theaters. And some one-nighters. LA, we're going to do a sit-down. We're here for Multiple nights

Okay What theater here? Microsoft Theater I don't know Where's that? The one in downtown LA Oh yeah Nice

It's nice So you're gonna do two shows I'm gonna do two shows Yeah Alright buddy Yeah maybe Mark's gonna be there We'll get me I'll come down

Just I'll come down Yeah for real? Yeah we'll work it out We'll work it out? Okay Alright buddy Hoss and Minhaj Ladies and gentlemen Okay. All right, buddy.

Hoss and Minhaj, ladies and gentlemen. That was a rapid-paced thing. Huh? That was a... I had to take a break after that one. I was exhausted. You can get tickets for his King's Jester tour dates at his website. Now, this is... There's no tone like this guitar tone. Cranked champ.

Old Fender champ, hot-rodded by the legendary Austin Hooks. Straight in, the Stratocaster, straight in. My Carlos Ruben Lopez Jr. Masterbuilt Stratocaster. guitar solo Boomer lives. Monkey and the Fonda. Cat angels everywhere Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.