WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1283 - Bill Pullman

Episode Date: November 29, 2021

Bill Pullman's upbringing in rural Western New York prepared him for a multifaceted life, since he always had to keep his options open. So aside from being an actor, Bill's also been a theater teacher, a rancher, a fruit grower, even a traveling Shakespeare performer in Montana. Bill and Marc talk about how he incorporated dream analysis into his performances in both David Lynch's Lost Highway and his current show The Sinner, why Spaceballs was actually a great crash course in movie acting, and what's the root cause of the timeless Pullman-Paxton confusion. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

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covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it how's it going did you get everything cleaned up? Throw it away.

Throw out the leftovers. Come on, man. It's Monday. I mean, that was what? Friday, Saturday, Sunday. That was four days ago. Get rid of it. Did you freeze the pie?

What are you doing? That turkey's not getting any better. Just throw it away. You're not going to eat the potatoes. Get rid of it. Get rid of it. I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. At my mother's house, the leftovers get thrown away fairly quickly. Bill Pullman is here.

You know him from Independence Day, Sleepless in Seattle, The Accidental Tourist, The Equalizer and every other movie. Lost Highway, right? Lost Highway. That's what it was. Yeah, he's been in everything. He's currently in the fourth season of the usa network detective show the sinner bill pullman i was very excited to talk to him a lot of people get mixed up with bill paxton who passed away also who had on this show great guy both of them great guys great character actors i guess you would call them character actors uh but he's here and i'm going to talk to him look some business some business at the top as they call it there's a cyber monday sale going on at podschwag.com slash wtf go get

some wtf merch and you'll get free domestic shipping with the code free ship all right that's today only you hear me podschwag.com. The Christmas sweater sweatshirts are there. The Hawaiian shirt with me and Booster and Shmushy on there. Yeah, it's all there. Now, also, this is important because I don't want to butcher the interview that's going to happen on Thursday. It's Benedict Cumberbatch this Thursday. And I want to give you a heads up on that because his new movie, The Power of the Dog, starts streaming on Netflix this Wednesday, December 1st. Watch it. I don't want there to be spoilers and our conversation is too deep and too nuanced to butcher.

So watch the fucking movie and don't blame me for spoilers or wait to listen to Cumberbatch until after you watch the movie. I'll give you a heads up before the interview as well. What can I tell you? It was a very good conversation about the movie. All right. So if you want to check it out before you hear us talk about it, Wednesday is your chance. You hear me? Power of the Dog, Netflix. Great movie. Real poetry, that one. Now, here's something else. Now, the big news.

Is this big news? I've got tour dates for the This May Be the Last Time tour. All right? That starts in January. A fan presale starts tomorrow, November 30thth at 10 a.m. local time. The pre-sale code is TIME. Time. General ticket sales start Friday, December 3rd.

Here are the cities. You ready? Listen for the name of the city near you. In California, Santa Barbara at the Libero, San Luis Obispo at the Fremont, San Francisco at the Palace of Fine Arts, and Napa at Uptown. Those are January 27th through January 30th. I'm doing smaller theaters because they make me happier. I enjoy them more. Oh, more California dates.

One more. San Diego at the Observatory North Park, February 11th. Now, East Coast, New Haven, Connecticut, College Street, March 9th. Troy, New York Music Hall, March 10th. Laconia, New Hampshire at the Colonial Theater, March 11th. Burlington, Vermont at the Flynn Center, March 12th. Atlanta, Georgia at Buckhead, April 1st. Providence, Rhode Island, the Columbus Theater, April 15th. Boston, the Wilbur, April 16th. Portland, Maine, at the State Theater, April 17th. Wisconsin, Madison at the Barrymore Theater, and Milwaukee at Turner Hall Ballroom, April 27th and 28th. Chicago at the Vic Theater, April 29th. Minneapolis at the Pantages, April 30th. Pittsburgh at the Carnegie of Homestead, May 12th.

That haunted place. Cleveland, Ohio. The Mimi Ohio Theater, May 13th. Royal Oak, Michigan. The Music Theater. Isn't that the Music Box Theater? May 14th. Washington, D.C. at the Kennedy Center, May 20th.

Red Bank, New Jersey at the Count Basie Center, May 20th. Red Bank, New Jersey, at the Count Basie Center, May 21st. Philadelphia at the Keswick Theater, May 22nd. North Carolina, Durham, the Carolina Theater on June 17th. And Charlotte, the Knight Theater at Blumenthal on June 18th. And Charleston, South Carolina at the Charleston Music Hall, June 19th. Again, pre-sale tickets at all those venues go on sale tomorrow at 10 a.m. local time. All right. Oh, man. Wow. I'm happy to be home. I was in Florida a long time. I went out there Monday. I did it differently. Different attitude, different

approach to the cooking. I didn't freak out. Everyone getting weird. Everyone's getting weird as they get older. I got sell eggs and cheese and other proteins in Harlem. I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive. It was a different time. I sold eggs. You sold eggs? I sold eggs and cheese on the street? You just, yes. In Harlem?

Why you got to be a wise ass? I'm not. It's just like, where's the rest of that story? I mean, that as it is is good, but wait, I can't talk to you. You sold eggs and cheese. It was a different time. On the street, different time. So he's remaining the same.

My mother is fine. I had a nice time. I had a good state of mind. I had a nicer low-key hotel and had to rent a car. I saw my brother, spent time with him, his girlfriend Julia. My niece came down, Eden, who I never see. My nephew's there, shy, and cousins. And I got to spend time with everybody. I had a nice time. That's all I'm going to say. I got no complaints. There was no arguing. My uncle is a little kooky with watching too much Fox News. I don't even know

if he's a Republican or if he's conservative. He just sort of reels off of these things. But, you know, I find that a lot of that stuff is fairly shallow. It just emboldens a disposition, an anger. But once I pressed through, it was like, whatever. You know what I mean? It went away. They think they win arguments.

I don't know. I don't know what it is. He was always sort of difficult. I'm going to be diplomatic because I told him. It's funny. I told him I'm doing a bit about John on stage. He goes, I said, you're next. He goes, yeah, well, I sue.

I'm like, okay, relax, buddy. It ain't that important. I sue. That's the kind of guy he is. I sue. Do you? How deep are your pockets, motherfucker? How deep are your fucking pockets?

They're getting older. Everybody's getting older. The Rolling Stones are getting older. My mother's getting older. Her boyfriend's getting older. My aunt and uncle are getting older. Everybody's getting older. And I got to be honest with you, I don't like it.

I don't like it. But I got along pretty good with John. And also, I was talking to my uncle, the difficult uncle. And I just asking him about restaurants down there. And I was like, are there any good restaurants here? Because wherever I'm going with my mom and John, I don't know, man. I don't think it's good. I said, I don't think people remember what good food is.

After a certain point, you're down here long enough, they don't remember. He's like, that's true. And he said, all they want is for the guy at the restaurant to know him. And I'm like, I know. I did a bit about that. That's all it is. You know, big servings, and when they walk in, they want to hear, like, there he is. We got your table right over here.

Here he comes. How are you? Good to see you. Regular table. That makes up for everything. You can give them a plate of garbage. But then they come over and go, how's the garbage? Good?

Was the garbage good tonight? We always take care of you with the garbage. Loved it. We're happy you come. How's the table? Good? Yeah, we love it. Thanks for the garbage.

They know me at the place hilarious hilarious so happy to get home and cook my own food holy shit that tour i didn't even realize it like i'm it's actually happening i only i agree to these things and i don't know they're gonna happen until they're it's on paper this may be the last time. That's the name of that tour. All right? Buster and Sam, you're fine. Everybody's fine. There was some dry puke on the stairs.

I'll take care of it. See, I'm putting it off. I'll get to it. It's not in my path. That's gross. Pow! Look out. Just shit my pants. Just just coffee.coop a classic ad from back in the day

it was a different time different time folks bill pullman is here and the season finale of the sinner airs this wednesday december 1st on usa networks you know him from a lot of other movies i'm not going to list him go look look it up. And go see Power of the Dog. He's not in that, but I want to speak freely about it Thursday. But right now, Bill Pullman is here. And as I said, the finale of the

finale of The Sinner airs Wednesday, December 1st. And I enjoy talking to Bill. So why don't you do that now? It's hockey season and you can get anything you need And I enjoy talking to Bill. So why don't you do that now? deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorrock.com. How long have you lived up there? Have you been here the whole time? 91 is when we moved in there. I had found an old place that we were looking for,

a place that had some slope behind it so I could build an orchard up there, and then we were lucky to find it in that little, kind of one of the little canyons. Oh, so you knew you needed slope to build an orchard? Well, yeah, I had been in Silver Lake, and there was a little bit of a slope at that house, but I just thought I was starting,

I really, the thing that grounds me in la is this uh that i can grow things here yeah you know like from western new york state originally it was cold climate and this is like we grow anything from around the world here so yeah so what do you grow are you still growing things still growing things yeah and what do you spend time you go out into the garden and you you well you know i'm not around i'm not really a gardener that's uh you know the orchard is more forgiving you know that's something that doesn't require you know the kind of intense thing that i can't be there all the time right it has to take some brutal neglects yeah you know they're trees though they can handle it as long as you keep water on them, so what do you got with fruit?

Well, right now, I should have brought some persimmons. The hard ones or the soft ones? Fuyu. They are the harder ones. What do you do with them? Well, you know, right now, sometimes I let them go until they're really soft, and then you can kind of

make a lot of... Like jam and stuff? Jam. But isn't there a kind of persimmon that doesn't get soft well for you you eat it crisped in it yeah but if you wait long enough to get a soft the hayachu is uh the one that you know gets softer and that you can only eat soft oh okay okay i always love that word they apply it's astringent astringent suck the moisture out of your mouth yes like yeah i thought thatringent astringent like i don't know suck the moisture out of your mouth yes like yeah i thought that's a word only to fruit people don't apply it to people but maybe it would work you know yeah and they're astringent emotionally emotionally

astringent you suddenly feel like you're getting sucked down exactly yeah you don't want to be around emotionally astringent people. So it's weird. I kept my, there is some sort of cross wiring in my, like in, I don't know if you've had to deal with it your whole career, but you know why with, see now it's happening again. Paxton. Oh yeah. The Paxton Pullman problem. Yes. I interviewed Bill, you know, not long he passed, and what a great guy.

But I don't know if you guys knew each other or what, but there is a cross-wiring that happens between the two of you. Yeah. Is that something I'm making up? No, no. I think it's the plosive sounds. Oh, is that what it is? Bill, Pullman, Bill, Paxton.

There's something like that did you know him yeah i did i really was we were um always fond of each other you know and uh his wife knew a little bit but mostly from the early days in la we made a movie together which one it's called brain dead oh yeah there's a roger corman movie a classic yeah a corman class a late corman classic and uh yeah it was it actually had a little kind of underground uh crowd that liked it which uh but he uh he and i still i had a polaroid picture from that thing that I kept at my workshop. And it was, I was playing a character who was undergoing surgery and my head so that at a certain point I could dig my own fingers into the sutures of my head.

Right. And curl back the top of my head. Right. Black butterflies came out. Nice. And I was in a hospital outfit. Yeah. black butterflies came out. Nice. And I was in a hospital outfit and Bill was playing a doctor in the thing and the two of us are hanging out together.

Right. It's like my favorite memory. What happened to that writer? The guy with the black butterflies? That seems kind of... Charles Beaumont. Oh, really? You remember the guy?

Yeah. Well, he was kind of a famous writer for the Twilight Zone episodes. Oh. He wrote all the original Twilight Zones. And the director of the film, Adam Simons, Corman said, go into the, he had shelves with all these scripts on that he owned that are all these kind of weird ideas. And Adam went through and found this old Charles Beaumont script. And shot it. It was called Paranoia. paranoia oh yeah but that was not marketable to brain what was it brain brain dead the opposite yeah of paranoia yeah strange but i guess brain dead was the way

to go in that yeah wow so you really got that was that was your baptism into the film business? No, well, it was early on, you know. It was. Oh, yeah, I guess you did that after Accidental Tourist. Yeah, yeah. I don't know when it got released or what happened with it. But, yeah, there was also a lot of actors that I had been hanging out with anyway with the Actors Gang. Oh, yeah. Oh, with Tim Robbins?

Tim Robbins' group. Yeah. And so there was a bunch of it. I came to L.A. to do a play. At the Actors Gang? L.A.T.C., the Los Angeles Theater Center, which was 85. Yeah. And it's this multi-theater complex that's downtown.

It's not, because now they've got the Mark Taper down there, right? Yeah. And there's this multi-theater complex that's downtown. Because now they've got the Mark Taper down there, right? Yeah. There's several theaters there. There's the Mark Taper Theater, and then there's the Red Cat Theater, which I did a special in. It's like the black box one. Oh, that's a great theater. It is, man.

Really. Yeah, yeah. The sound is great. Sounds perfect. Very intimate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Were you doing a... I recorded a stand-up special there.

My last one in 2000 and whatever it was, 20, it came out. I shot it there. We were going to shoot it in like an older theater in Boston, but the director, Lynn Shelton, could not do a shot she wanted, so we just moved it over there. Wow. Yeah. That's specific it was just like well it was like yeah well some of those old theaters they don't want to start pulling seats out so you can put a dolly in or

boom or whatever you need so it was a hassle so fuck it you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah do whatever you want yeah open that thing right up you know what the thing though is with comedy though that place has a you know a sort of uh there's those kind of theaters have a kind of dramatic expectation you know when it's just that

that that intimate and that kind of uh that that crisp yeah you know you're expecting intensity you're not expecting to laugh you're expecting to listen i think that's really yeah true i think yeah it's also a broad stage. Yeah. But I guess with comedy, you can keep in the center. We were shooting it, so we built around it. Oh, that's right. You know what I mean?

So it didn't have to be really. Yeah, and you create something on there. Yeah. So you came out for theater. So 85, how old were you in 85? I was in my 30s. Oh, really? Yeah, so 32 or something.

Kind of a late starter? Late starter. To the movie business? I had a lot of other adventures. I guess if you think of the movie business as the only thing that you're going to get to, but for so long, I had no thought that I was going to get to any movie business. And you grew up where? Western New York State.

Oh, like what? Near Rochester. Oh, Rochester. Springfield. New York? Springfield, Mass. Mass. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to school

near Springfield, Mass. I went to UMass at Amherst for a graduate. Oh, man, that's a nice little kind of a cozy liberal arts college. Or no, Amherst University.

UMass Amherst is big. Yeah. But then there's Amherst University, which is sort of a little kind of a hippie school. And then there's an actual hippie school out there. Which one was that? Reed? No, Reed's in Hampshire.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're running around the little tri-college area? Five college. That was five. Oh, my God. Yeah. Good times? Did you spend time up there?

I was in Boston. Oh. I went to Boston University, but I also went back and started my comedy career in Boston, driving around everywhere. So I do gigs places, but I've been out to Amherst, sure. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have much of a Boston accent.

I didn't grow up there. I just went to college there. My family's Jersey people. Oh, there it is. And I grew up in New Mexico, so it's all over the place. But there's some Jersey in there. Yeah. What do you got?

You know, I think this Midwestern thing of Western New York State has popped up. People say, my wife particularly, when I get close to being back in my turf, I start, well, Larry Kessler, when we did Extend on Terrorists, we were doing looping, and he said, do you know what you said? Yeah. And I said, what do you mean? I had a line about, hurt you know i'm looking in his refrigerator and i say uh all you got is um some cokes and some cans of penis yeah you know that midwestern thing where

you drop the consonants at the end of words and he said we're gonna have to loop that it's not good for the story it's uh yeah it's peanuts yeah peanuts not peanuts penis that's right you had to work with hurt in in sort of the peak of his thing yeah the intensity of hurt the intensity of hurt the hurt of hurt but wait so rochester like i'm trying to remember i've been to rochester that's the land of the garbage plate macaroni and cheese and potato salad. You ever heard of that? Yeah.

The garbage plate? It's kind of a version of the poutine. The Canadian thing is a garbage plate. Kind of, but that's gravy, at least, and fries. I've worked in Rochester. There's Rochester, Albany, Troy. There's sort of these of cities scrambling back. Yeah.

I was, we're, you know, like an hour and a half south of there. So it was a really rural part of New York State. It's Steuben County, which is, it's Hornell is the town that I grew up in. And it's in Steuben County. And I think it's the highest deer take in New York State. So it's wild out there. Really? Yeah.

A lot of Lyme disease. Yeah, it's starting to be more and more as it comes up from the south. And why was your... So it's weird. People don't realize in upstate New York that it's like literally Appalachia. There's like definitely a hill people contingent. Yeah. Yeah.

We used to have a VISTA volunteer in our town. Yeah. That would help to civilize things. Oh, really? What is a VISTA volunteer? That was like the domestic peace corps that existed. Oh, really? In the 60s, and I think it ended in the 70s.

What was going on in upstate New York that required them to hang out? Well, you know, it's just that in rural parts and it's still the true you know there's no economic engine that's happening sure people are living um off the grid the grid and my father was from brooklyn and he went to university of rochester med school and when he finished his residency he wanted to be close to school he drove south till he hit hills yeah so that's where he dug in that's where he dug in yeah what kind of doc was he he was a general practitioner with a he had an internal medicine specialty oh so he was like uh just a blood and guts blood and guts but like uh could

do anything intern yeah it was the internist internist right so it was like a town doctor. Yeah, yeah. He took care of a lot of the people that had diabetes. Diabetes is an affliction that a lot of people have in that area. He would be the one to initiate them into how to eat, give themselves insulin. Oh, yeah, right. How about house calls? Did you do house calls? Did you have the big black bag? Yep, we did have the big black bag that stood outside our kitchen door.

It was the one thing that we didn't have access to. That's right. Had the little lock on it. No, just the code. Oh, the code. The code of our family, I guess. Oh, don't go in there because there's syringes and medicines and all that. My dad was a doc.

He was an orthopedic. But he had one of those black bags, I guess, from medical school. I don't know that he made many house calls, maybe when he was doing his residency. But, you know, house calls are really, were a thing of the past. But they did them. You know, those guys. Did you ever go on one with them? No, but I went to the hospital.

I mean, I used to go on rounds with them and stuff. You know, I got taught a lesson about motorcycles when he introduced me to one of his patients in traction. He said, you sure you want to ride a motorcycle? Let me introduce you to somebody. This guy had pins in both his legs. I'm like, all right, I get it. I get it. My brother's a doctor, and he says to my son, he says, oh, you got yourself a donor cycle? Uh-huh.

It's nothing like the hard truth from the medical community. A donor cycle. What kind of doc's your brother? He also has a general practice, but he's an infectious disease doctor in Butte, Montana. Busy year. Yeah, busy year. A lot of trying to sort things out. He keeps a low profile in it all, but it's been quite interesting. We're in Montana?

In Montana, yeah. Well, what's the vaccine rate in Montana? There's a lot of pushback? Yeah, Montana's been a little bit of a slide in that department. Yeah, yeah. There's some very vocal people that department. Yeah, yeah. It's gone to some, there's some very vocal. Sure, sure. People are resisting it

and they're getting more attention than they should, but. Yeah. Now, how do you end up in, like what, so you're in upstate New York and how do you decide that this is the,

you know, the life for you? I mean, what was the evolution of, what's the Pullman evolution? To get to being on Raymond Street here? Yeah, what was the evolution of, what's the Pullman evolution from acting? To get to being on Raymond Street here? Yeah, all the way over here, yeah. At a certain point, I realized that

I was finding the theater thing was kind of like my own health, I think. Probably like comedy for you, once you find your voice in something, you just gotta have it no matter how you get it or whatever version yeah no matter how hard it is and horrible yeah you gotta keep doing you have a calling yeah so you did theater when you were younger no i was you know dialing up a lot of different possibilities for myself you know

when i was 17 how long did you think you were going to be a doctor for you know that's the one thing i never never really did i i most of my family is in some kind of version of medicine yeah but i just never never did have that uh in inclination i i think i think about what they the culture that they have, those being kind of humanists and being generous. And I tried to, you know, various times model, you know, follow that model. Yeah, yeah. But in terms of being an actual practitioner, no.

But I was in building construction. I was in a two-year college for building construction. Really? And I went with some- To be a contractor? I wanted to build old houses and barns and restore things at a certain point. But I was dialing up careers at this point. Then a month later, I wanted to go to urban planning.

Wow. I had a lot of different things but i got into a play very charismatic guy bill campbell who was the um uh drama director there and he was just about five years older than me uh suny delhi oh yeah i feel like i've heard that name before bill campbell bill campbell was he the guy in the drama department yeah yeah he went on with that to stay in there but he he was very very um you know at a certain point you need somebody just say look you should do this sure you got yeah somebody's got to be like that's what you know has to turn your lights on in a way yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that was the guy. And I was willing to go wherever somebody pointed that says, look, you could actually do pretty well.

So you gave up the urban planning dream? You gave up the reconstructing the barn dream? Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. And then, you know, he, but then, you know, that looked like, well, basically, he said, you know, Pullman, you should do what I did. I went to a college 22 miles away from Delhi called Oneonta, get a degree in theater, and then get some kind of graduate degree, and then come back and teach at a place like Delhi.

It's good life. You'll do well here. And I went to Oneonta, and then I was in graduate school when he he called me, he said, Pullman, come and take my job. Campbell. Yeah, Campbell said, take my job for a year because I need somebody I can trust, and it's not going to fuck me over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I want it back. I want it back some point, and I did.

I went there, did it, and then he came back, and he took it. He's been a great friend all my life. He still remains one of the most interesting people. Really? That's great. Yeah. So you taught. I was thinking, well, it was a student activities position. So I just directed the plays and the sets.

Okay. So you weren't like a professor. It was like the non-drama school drama people. At that point, I did get into the, you know, I did go to graduate school. And then I was thinking I'll go to New York at some point. But I was in Montana. Montana? Wait, how'd you get there? I jumped there because I was wanting, what is it?

Oh, my graduate advisor at UMass at Amherst, I said, I'm not going to do any theater this summer. I was going to go west. Yeah. Well, why don't you go west and do a play? I met a guy who runs a theater in Montana, tours all around Montana. Yeah. So it was called Montana Shakespeare in the Park. So the guy that runs that took me in.

Doing Shakespeare in Montana? Shakespeare in Montana, yeah. Touring around to towns that are too small to have a hotel, and you're staying in people's homes. Really? Yeah. Do they come see the shows? They came to see the shows.

Shakespeare. Ranchers. Yeah. As an old tradition in the West, you know, a first love of Shakespeare. You always see it in some Westerns. Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess that's true, yeah. You read like Roughing It, you know,

that Mark Twain book about his experiences in the West. There's a great sequence in there of him encountering a Shakespearean company. Right, right. I think I don't know if I read that book, but they're kind of ruffians, right? They're kind of like the Shakespeare guys are kind of like unique somehow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But greatly revered, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They could travel through with a book of Shakespeare. And a lot of cowboys would carry, you know. Really? That makes sense. Some Shakespearean plays in those days. You know, I can't wrap my brain around it usually.

It's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah, it's a mix. Do you like doing Shakespeare? You know, I've had good, certain kinds of engagement with it. I don't think I'm really the best person for most Shakespearean productions. And I find it one of the hardest things

in the States to pull off. But I've had a few encounters with him, yeah. So how do you get from montana to uh you know hollywood i mean like it sounds like that wasn't the and i don't know what what did you think your plan was just a wild west shakespeare guy well i at a certain point i realized i i just kind of took the job in front of me it was teaching and i thought you know wouldn't it be good to make a living with some for a little while put some money in the bank before i go to new york and so i taught for two years yeah learned a lot you know when you teach when you first are out there i was really

doing some things where i was trying to develop uh plays that were Montana-specific and not... Writing them or programming them? A version of documentary theater or devised theater, where we were using resources that were from Montana history, just so that people weren't doing Neil Simon plays, Plaza Suite. Sure, sure. That's what was on their minds. Yeah. So we did.

The guy, John Dahl, the film director, he was a student of mine in Montana. The guy directed The Last Deduction. Yes, yes. And he put you in that. He did. I knew him in Montana

and then eventually I left there to go to New York and start in theater and I thought that's going to be the thing. It's in New York theater. And then I got a play out here in LA at the Los Angeles Theater Center and came out to do the play. And then I realized, hmm, maybe I will take that. You can get a job on a TV show for a day and you make some money there.

I'll do that. And I was on Cagney and Lacey. So you had an agent? At that point, yeah. I had a pretty good agent, yeah. So in Montana, like, so you, when you started putting up shows, like you didn't want to do Neil Simon in Montana. You wanted to do something more that they could relate to.

Yeah. Yeah. And what, did you know, was there any proximity? Wasn't there some great writers up in Montana? jim harrison a montana guy yes did you ever have no no you i did a movie that he wrote with tom mcguane who's another great right yeah yeah mcguane's great nobody's angel and uh 92 in the shade yeah yeah yeah that's great yeah he's having a great renaissance with his short stories mcguane is mcguane yeah my buddy's a novelist and he he uh he corresponds with him sometimes oh yeah but did you you knew those guys yeah knew those guys they we did a movie that jim harrison and tom

mcguane wrote it in 11 days which movie it's called cold feet huh and it's with uh tom waits and sally kellerman and keith carradine and i know sally do you yeah she played my mother in my show on ifc i wonder how she is i i you know it was just and that was a couple a few years ago but yeah i saw i don't remember seeing that movie but it was interesting because that was like i don't think people realize that you know waits, Waits was, you know, foraying into acting that early on. You know, because he's become sort of a character. You know, like when you see him in a movie, you're kind of like, man, it's Waits. But like back then, it was a little goofy, right?

Yeah. Yeah. He was definitely really a great energy. You know, something I had really very different than an actor's energy. Sure. More like just raw. His character. Character.

Yeah. He's in Paul Thomas Anderson's new movie. I know. I'm going to a screening of it next week, I hope. Yeah. Did you see it? No, I haven't seen it yet. No, I always like seeing weights.

He's good in that Coen Brothers thing with the five stories. The Scruggs, Buster Scruggs, the ballad of usker scruggs yes his vignette his piece his story waits this was great yeah the prospector yeah yeah yeah yeah it's great no talking yeah yeah there's just very little but to himself to himself yeah he's always good man he's getting rumble fish you know how many summers i got left i uh yeah so but the jim harrison though we uh what do you think of that guy yeah very very uh live wire cook you know he they were livingston crowd which is on the uh just out on the east side among uh bozeman eastern bozeman and there's an enclave of interesting people there. And he definitely, you know, great books, you know, really great.

And he was dedicated to Montana for quite a long time. And so that experience was, you know, there's a bunch of writers in Montana now that I think are really doing interesting things. Yeah, McWane. He's great, man. He has one of my favorite quotes. I paraphrase it all the time. He said, the mind is not a boomerang.

If you throw it too far, it will not come back back that one's helped me through life you've been tempted to give it a heave well yeah sometimes you don't know you're throwing it so far that's right until you go looking for it you're like oh fuck it must be in these bushes somewhere where's the steering wheel yeah i'm in trouble so so how do you get out of there? Okay, so you come down here for the play, and then you do Cagney and Lacey. Well, just a little bit of, I got cast in Ruthless People, really, was the thing in L.A. That I went to L.A. in 85 to do the play, and then got cast to do, you know, by 86,

I was already, you know, I'd gotten, did the Ruthless People thing and then was in Spaceballs. You know, we shot that in 86. Right. So that would have been after the Cagney and Lacey experience.

I thought so. And you're doing theater in New York, so that was, so you really were kind of like, you thought that, I mean, but did you always know you were going to act? Because it does sound like in Montana that like the acting, it wasn't acting. Was it acting?

No, it wasn't really. And I think I just kind of drifted away from it because I was doing the teaching thing. And then I had always acted all through these university academic theater things. And then just realized that I hadn't given myself permission to do that, to really just say, I'm now going to pursue some acting. Were you afraid? You know, I think I just was trying to eat the hot dog in front of me, and that was the teaching. Go with the flow.

Yeah, yeah. Right. I did that. It was good enough. It was like playing a part. Yeah. You know? eat the hot dog in front of me and that was the it was go with the flow teaching yeah yeah right you know i did that it was good enough it was like playing a part yeah you know you couldn't be yeah can you be 25 years old and be a professor i don't think so i mean you got to start somewhere you got to believe it yeah that's half of it and i oh so you were that young yeah yes 24 so when do you what year was it when you're like i'm gonna do it i'm gonna act i think it was 24. So what year was it when you're like, I'm going to do it? I'm going to act? I think it was after teaching for two years, and I realized I can't. It was nice.

It was Montana State University, beautiful campus, and people were dying to teach there. They'd take docks and salary to teach there, and I was lucky to have a job there. But I also thought if I don't leave now, I'm never going to get out of here. You know who I also had met during that period was Robert Persig, who wrote Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Oh, really? And that book, he makes the journey to outside of Bozeman, Cottonwood Canyon,

and stays with this family, the Deweeses, and climbs the mountain, and that whole epiphany. the Dewey's and climbs the mountain and that whole epiphany. And I was friends with that artist couple that, that had the house in Cottonwood Canyon. And I thought, I, you know, they had offered,

why don't you live out here? This, you know, we have an apartment out here. And I just thought, I really loved them a lot. And I thought that would be really, it's a beautiful spot.

And I could see myself more and more putting in roots here. I better not. I better go. You didn't want to be part of the sort of hippie intelligentsia of Bozeman, Montana? Right. Yeah, it was tempting. Was Brodigan up there too? Richard Brodigan was there, yeah.

He used to come to the Shakespeare plays. We'd see him in Livingston. He was a Livingston guy. No shit. And I'd see him out at the edge of the audience standing there, coming to see this outdoor production. Judging it. Yeah.

Wow, man. So you're young. You're in your 20s, and you're just seeing all this weird hippie royalty. Yeah, yeah. Really very. That generation of writers that came. Those are all important royalty. Yeah, yeah, really very. That generation of writers that came. Those are all important guys. Yeah, yeah.

You know, Harrison, McWane, Brodigan, the motorcycle maintenance guy. I mean, those are big books. Yeah. And they were ranging around, and Montana felt like a little bit of a stopping spot away from it. You could be that guy. You could still be teaching.

Yeah, could have done that. For your whole life, you'd still be there. Could be in urban planning. But you didn't. You committed to acting, and you went back to New York, and is that what happened? Well, yeah. And then out here, it just started in with, you know, I did think I was always going to be an East Coast person, but I've come to really like L.A. Yeah, most people do eventually.

You know, it's weird. Initially, you're like, I'm not going to. I know what those people are like. But then you get out here for a while, and you're like, nice here. You know, it'm not going to – I know what those people are like. But then you get out here for a while and you're like, nice here. You know, it's not bad. But do you ever miss, like, the deciduous woods or anything like that? Well, I mean, I grew up in New Mexico, so I do miss it a bit. There's something about home that the environment, even the air where you go back, it's like it's part of your's part of your your child it's part of your life so like

you know to reconnect with it i mean i don't need to do it for long you know i could i could go like you know yeah this is part of me for a few days and then come back yeah yeah that's what part of new mexico albuquerque oh my gosh yeah yeah well i mean it's weird people who act who have this impression of albuquerque you know in the last decade do you know, it's weird. People who act, who have this impression of Albuquerque, you know, in the last decade, you know, like it's very different because it's gone through some, it's kind of a beat up place. But when I was growing up, you know, it was just the town I grew up in and there was a university and everything happened for me there and it was beautiful and you'd drive

up into Santa Fe and all this shit. But people generally that I talk to now who act are like, you know, oh, I was there for a month. It was terrible. You know, like they just have these weird feelings about it. I always thought it was really haunting because, you know, Route 66 goes through there. And there's still vestiges of those kind of old periods of Albuquerque.

Oh, yeah, for sure. And I treasure that. Oh, yeah. Have you shot there? Shot there a bunch and definitely have young people that I know that are living there now and making an interesting life. Certain young people in their 30s are moving there.

Doing what? In the business? You know, they're doing a lot of different things. It's a young woman and her husband, she's a therapist, an equine therapist. Equine therapist, sure. A horse therapist equine therapist. Equine therapist, sure. A horse therapist? Horse therapist. All that renovation is happening around the old town, which I could walk there.

Staying in a hotel near, kind of near there. And talk about, you know, sketchy, dodgy turf. But I guess it felt like really interesting to me. I'm glad that you have a nice impression of Albuquerque. I've thought about going back there, but I don't know what I do there. Oh, yeah. You can't.

I mean, they have garages there. Sure. But you're not there. No. It's going to be hard to pull the guests. I got to wait till someone's shooting a Netflix show or out there. How many people on Better Call Saul can I interview?

Well, my son was just there. Young son is an actor. Oh, yeah. He was there January through July, and they were shooting a TV series called Outer Range. Yeah. And they, you know,

always the question is, are you going to base yourself in Albuquerque or in Santa Fe or in Las Vegas, you know, where all those westerns are sets and things are up there. Las Vegas, New Mexico? New Mexico. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's a swept, you know, it depends where, you know, where all those Westerns are sets and things are up there. Las Vegas, New Mexico? New Mexico.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's a schlep. You know, it depends where, you know, like Santa Fe is great. I thought, you know, I feel like I missed a boat on like buying a house to rent, you know, because like all the show business is moving there. I mean, Netflix set up shop there as a permanent production facility thing. They got huge sound stages, right? Yeah.

So I got, well, me, like an idiot, like, I should have bought a house a decade ago and just, like, rented it. Yeah, yeah. But no, now you can't find one. Right? Yeah. There's one for sale up behind the mountain that, like, there's part of me that's sort of like,

why don't you just, like, there's, like, 44 acres for sale. Oh, yeah. Up between Santa Fe and, like, Madrid, the ghost town up beyond Old 14 in Cerritos. I love that. Yeah, but, like, I mean, I mean, then I think about it, it's it's like well if I really want to go I'll just go

Airbnb or something. What do I need to how often am I going to go out there if I'm not shooting? You're just going to go sit in the mountains for what? How long? Do you need to own the house to do that? I don't know. Do you have another house somewhere? Well yeah I've been in Montana you know. How often do you go? Well it's different periods.

I have had this ranch with my brother for 30 years. So he's up there all the time? Yeah, he's the doctor. Oh, that's right. So he lives up there. And they live on the ranch? They live on the ranch. Is it a working ranch? Yeah, it's a working ranch. His wife, really, is the rancher of all of us. What are you ranching?

Cows? Cows, yeah, Bengus cows. Oh, meat cows. Yeah. So we have pastures up in the mountains and the cows get driven up there in the summer. Is it like high-end meat? It's, you know, I think I've stepped back about

six, seven years ago. Oh, yeah? Now I'm just in charge of my keeping fences up and irrigation up and things like that. Up there. And the persimmon tree in back here. Back here, yeah. Yeah.

I have my egg. Me too, Mark. Don't you have a fruit tree on this place? There's a lime tree right there, and it's just like, it's too much pressure. Well, that counts. I mean, just- Yeah, but it's just there, and then you're sort of like, what am I going to do with all these limes?

I don't drink. I can't make margaritas. and then you're sort of like, what am I going to do with all these limes? I don't drink. I can't make margaritas. How much ceviche can I make? What am I going to... How many lime sodas can I make? You know, it just gets a little bit... But then you start to realize, like, look, man, it's not... They're not animals.

You just throw them away. Put them in the compost. Right, yeah. It's a fruit. Right, it's fruit. You don't have to eat all the fucking limes. But in L.A., I mean, everybody has fruit trees. Yeah, sure. They're around. Yeah. Lemon trees. compost right yeah fruit right it's free you don't have to eat all the fucking limes but in la i mean everybody has fruit trees yeah sure they're around lemon trees you just see lemons falling on the

ground everywhere yeah but i still buy fucking lemons ah i'm an idiot because i'm like you know i don't have a lemon tree but i could drive around a bit and go pull some off a tree somewhere but yeah i don't do it let's see how many what other trees you have well you know i was always impressed by how many trees aren't being picked and yeah so 11 years ago we started a thing called hollywood orchard which was gleaning fruit from trees that are not being picked and then having a volunteer uh pop-up kitchens and we do we so you're half the time you know get volunteers there that show up and then go and half of them go pick and the other half goes in a little cul-de-sac we have and we have pop-up kitchens, have chefs advise. Well, how much can you, like, what are you getting?

Like, you're getting lemons, limes, avocados, persimmons? You know, in a way, it was an exercise in community more than really. There's other organizations. Is it like all citrus-based dishes? There's another organization that started at the same time called Food Forward that does that in a huge way. They're gleaning trees from all over L.A. and bringing the food to people that need it. That's good. But you're not making preserves?

Oh, that's a big part of my life. Yeah, I like being in the kitchen. Me too. Doing that kind of thing. So a big part of your life is making? Putting up fruit. Yeah? You know, so that I can have it later.

Yeah. We had mangoes. Actually, I was in Nova Scotia for five months, so I just came back, really. What were you doing up there? We shot the fourth season of The Sinner there. Oh, in Nova Scotia? In Nova Scotia, yeah.

You didn't even know that was going to be a series, did you? No, no. I didn't realize. It's like the surprise career boost. Yeah, I guess. I never really thought of myself as like a- The detective guy? Well, maybe I played a a detective I realized more than

I thought I had you know Cagney and Lacey was a detective show all comes around bill it all comes around yeah I think like zero effect was this sure and that was a detective you know know. Sure. So I realized, oh, and noir and everything is, you know, policiers, as they say in France. Do you like doing it? I think that's an interesting turf, you know, because there's always this sense of what betrayal is, you know, and what lying is. And, you know, that's, I think, it's been, you know, doing the sinner, I think, has been a level of both, you know that's yeah i think it's been a you know doing the center i think has been a level of both you know have to provide a lot of story yeah keep the thing going you know and all that but inside that isn't is a kind of deeper commitment to psychology what's going on in people

why did they do what they did you know and i think that yeah it just made me made it like i i really like doing it yeah because i never thought i would say i really like doing a show that came back year after year i thought i would not i'd wither on the vine you know sure throw my mind and it wouldn't broom around back you know just like just sit there on the set yeah yeah without you yeah Just sit there on the set. Yeah. Yeah, without you. Yeah.

Just going through the motions, being one of those guys. But it doesn't seem like there's any real shame anymore in doing the work like that. Well, I think there's so much more interesting work, I guess. Sure. Yeah, everything's kind of evolved. Yeah. Yeah. But I like that idea, though. The thing that makes it interesting is how complicated people are.

Yeah. Because as an actor, I mean, you've got to put some meat on the bone for yourself. So you've got the character. So, like, how does that guy, you know, remain compelled? Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so the writers have to keep churning out these things that make you, as your character, go like, hmm.

Yeah. Well, I think the premise always is built into the, you know, why done it? So you see some crime has been committed, usually, or something, a violent act has happened, and then you're trying to peel back the onion. And so, you know, that in itself, Derek Simons is the creator of it and very interesting guy, Jungian. So his mind always needs those kind of anchors too about what philosophically is going on now that we want to include and weave into the story.

I talked to another guy yesterday about Jungian. Jungian's come up twice in two days. Oh, yeah? Was he talking about dreams? Yeah. I was talking to Benedict Cumberbatch yesterday. Uh-huh. And what did he say?

And he was talking about The Power of the Dog, that Jane Campion movie. And she had him go to a dream analysis, a Jungian dream analysis, to do some preparation for his part. Did he say he got a lot out of it? Well, you know, he said that Campion told him some of her dreams, and they were very amazing and explosive and exciting, and his were more just panic-driven, sort of like, you know, simple things. But he found it interesting. Yeah.

You? So we did that. You did? Yeah, because Derek, actually, Derek Simons is a showrunner. He's trained as a facilitator in dream analysis. Young in dream analysis. Young in dream analysis. So you did it.

Not with him. He wanted to do it, particularly last season, was involving quite a bit of that. So I did it for the first time. He had done it with um jessica bill yeah on the first season yeah and i was like and i'm kind of busy i yeah yeah do my own prep in my own way and really know what it was and he was not you know get out of my head man i got this afraid probably yeah but uh yeah and i think at a certain point, a lot of people think they aren't dreaming anymore, especially as you get older.

Yeah, you do. Yeah, they're there. Maybe you don't remember them or anything. But I thought I had stopped dreaming, and that's a very good facilitator that Derek set us up with. So you did it? Yeah, we did it. And did it freak you out, or was it interesting? Not really.

Was it revelatory? Revelatory, yeah. It was something. And, you know, because we also had the thought that it might integrate into what the season was and what my character was, that there were right away, because I said to her, you know, we did a three-day workshop. The first day, you know, you do these exercises. And then she said, you know, we'll see. They'll come in tomorrow with a dream. And I said, I don't think so.

You know, I can't just dial it up like that. It's not going to happen. She said, well, just before you go to bed, think. You know, I'd like to remember this dream. And bang, you know. You did? Yeah. Wow.

Really. And that dream ended up fueling the whole arc of that season. Come on. Yeah. The one you just shot? No, it's the third season. Okay, all right. That one, yeah.

And it was- Just for you, but not in the story, but in terms of your character? I mean, you used it in your prep somehow? Yeah. I had never gone to the location that was my character's house for that season. It ended up being an old stone house in upstate New York. But I'd seen location shots and I'd forgotten that I'd even seen it. But all of a sudden, there I was in my dream. I was in this house. And I encountered right away Richard Gere. And I never dream about celebrities or- You did a couple movies with him. Yeah. So I know him, but I haven't run into him recently.

There was nothing that was saying- That's a long time ago, yeah. Why Richard Gere? Yeah. And then a five-year-old girl came out of a room with a tiara on her head. She came and grabbed my hand. We walked down a long hallway. And at the other end was a door to and in the back was a pond

and she was kind of mirthful and saying come on into the pond yeah and i'm we were both immersed in the pond there were ducks at the other and then these ducks started to come towards us as if they wanted to communicate with us and then they flew off yeah and that was the end of the dream and but the analysis of that is what you know that sounds like a random thing and yeah like a dream yeah but when you're doing these facilitated workshops right all of a sudden you're you start with like what could that mean uh-huh what are you seeing when you see your What are you seeing? Does he want to be paid for appearing in this? Right.

Well, and then the second, you know, another part of it is what does Richard Gere see when he's seeing you? Yeah. And what does the little girl see? What did you come up with? It's a whole set of, it's a cosmology you start to create around it. Around your past? Around my past, around how I'm fused with the aspects of the character,

you know, and that sense of, you know, what it is to be spontaneous and was kind of at the core of it was this investigation about, you know,

being available to thinking about, you know, just living in the moment more with this five-year-old girl with the tiara, you know, releasing that aspect of me. Because basically all these elements are you. Right.

Richard Gere is me. Right. A version of me. I hear that, you know, and I've heard that before about dreams, that they're all you. But I can't quite figure it. Well, you know, maybe it's a metaphor. You know, I've also heard that about plays, that, you know, every character in the play is a big, you know, aspect maybe it's a metaphor you know i've also heard that about plays that you know every character in the play is a big you know aspect of the of the writers i guess so but i don't

understand why that's helpful because to me like if i was just and i don't know you but like you know you worked with gear twice he was a big movie star you were supporting actor you know there there has to be whether it's you or not you know, that to me is a portal into whatever that dynamic was at that time in your life. Right? Whether you were out. He has his spiritual side. Yeah, right. He's a Buddhist guy.

Buddhist guy. And I think that was maybe. And you knew that. I had known that. I had followed that a little bit. And so I think there was some aspect of uh that was a lot of ways you can go yeah a lot of reasons why there is in your dream and then you work with guys like you know you work with david lynch what twice yeah and that guy's like you know he's making

dreams like he builds from dreams yeah like i mean i saw what was it it was more were you in the lost highway lost highway Saxophone guy. Right? Didn't you have a saxophone guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Robert Blake showed up. It was just his face a few times. Yes, yes.

Saying, I didn't kill her. I didn't kill her. No, I'm kidding. Right. That's what he says in real life. But how'd you get that relationship with Lynch? Well, he, you know, I had known his daughter, Jennifer, a little bit. There was a movie called Boxing Helena that ended up being made. But for a couple of iterations before it got made,

Jennifer wanted to cast me and Madonna in it. And I got to know Jennifer during that period. The money didn't come through right at that point. Yeah. And then by the time it did, I wasn't available. But she was the one who said to David, you know, check him out for Lost Highway. Now, when you do that, I mean, you weren't doing any Jungian work there.

So when you get a script for Lost Highway, is there part of you that's sort of like, what the fuck is this? You know, I was the opposite. Everybody was saying, you're going to read this, or the agent, you know, and say, I don't know. You read it, see what you make of it. And I think I understood it pretty well.

I think maybe because I was used to reading strange plays and things like that. Oh, yeah, right, right. And I didn't need a lot of psychology that was obvious in order to make it potent. I'm trying to remember it. Well, it really starts with a musician in the basin of L.A., saxophone guy, is living in a pretty good environment

with a wife who's blonde, Patricia Arquette. Right. And she's got some things that maybe he's worried about and it's not going well, that there seems to be some trouble in their relationship. And then suddenly these videotapes start appearing. Oh, yeah. And they realize that someone is videoing their own house

while they're in the house. Wasn't Robert's Blake facing this, or am I making that up? Well, eventually he appears, yeah. But yeah, he comes into, I see him at a party, and that's this great scene where he says, I'm in your house right now. And I say, no, hey, are you fucking crazy, man? Yeah, yeah. And one of my favorite lynch lines.

Yeah, yeah. And then he says, I am, call me. And I get my favorite lynch lines. Yeah, yeah. And then he says, I am. Call me. And I get my phone. I call. And he picks up the phone on the other end while he's watching me at the party. And he starts laughing. It's like a dream.

Yeah. Really. It's fucking like a dream. Really like a dream. So you're like, you know, but you're used to it. I mean, you seem like kind of a meat and potatoes kind of guy. But, I mean, you're dug in with the theater. You know what the trip is.

You know weirdness. Yeah. You know, abstractions, I guess. Abstractions, maybe, that have – sometimes that's an easier thing to discern the truth than more realistic things. Well, you've done Albie plays. Yeah. I mean, you know, that stuff, like, that's some open-ended shit. I mean, you don't know what the hell.

I mean, yeah, multi-leveled. But it's just tough to work with comics, you know, I think, in terms of really understanding where they're coming from. Comics? Comics, yeah. So, you know, now there's so many people who are acting, good actors, that come from comedy. And that is a different impulse than how I started. I guess so, but you like early on,

you were in the middle of all of them. I mean, you did Spaceballs. I mean, that's like, they were all there. Yeah.

Surrounded by clowns. Yeah. But how they go about their day when they're working on a set is so different than what I ever thought. Really? You know.

Like how? Well, you know, it's so much in the moment. Oh, yeah. So much given to like uh and and and having a slant you know on things and having having a delivery and having you know thinking of the kind of uh and very verbal you know really what do you do on set well i you know i think i come at it in terms terms of more like a circumstance that I'm thinking about, or I have all this different kind of sense of what I'm doing to the other person.

But I think that there's a lot of really interesting actives come about, with all those Will Ferrell and Steve Carell and all that. I really worked with, did Battle of the Sexes with Steve Carell and all that, you know, really worked with, you know, did Battle of the Sexes with Steve Carell. Yeah, yeah. You know, just watching that process work, Adam McKay style, you know, which really comes born. I mean, that's some of the most,

when you look at succession, that's really, really sophisticated, integrated work that feels, but the process of working with him, you know, has come from- With McKay? Yeah, I think that's, he developed that with Will Ferrell about,

and that, I did a part in what became Vice. Yeah. And he offered it, Adam had offered it to me, and I said, yeah, I'm not going to do it. It's a small part that's probably going to be cut. Yeah. Oh, no, he wants to talk to you. So I talked to him, and he said, no, come and do this. And he said, I can't guarantee anything, but I can tell you one thing.

You're going to have a good time on the set. I did. I went there, and I had a good time on the set, and I was cut. So how does he work that you say that's unique? Wow. Is it improvising? Yeah. Improvising?

So, you know, he, I was playing Nelson Rockefeller, who does not appear in Vice, but was a part of, in the middle chunk of it, you know, when Cheney and Rundfeld were doing their mischievousness, you know, part of the first, one of their first trophy prizes was they took out Nelson Rockefeller. He was going to be running for president. They wanted a more conservative person,

and they got Bob Dole. Then that went from there. But that journey of Nelson's was kind of a critical little linchpin. But with Adam, you're in a spot spot and he's on a God mic, you know, so he's saying, now say this, now say this, now try this. So you're in the modality of being in the scene, but you're hearing these ideas and pretty much lines, you know that's very immediate very immediate very discardable yeah you don't get hugely invested so that you can just throw up a lot of stuff and

then choose from the best that's interesting so is that the only time you've you've worked with the director on the god mic like that yeah it's like i did a i did a little part in in pete berg's movie you work with pete berg on the last addiction i did the whatever the spencer for hire whatever that movie was i just did what i did a little part in the walberg thing he did spencer confidential oh and and he works like that isn't that interesting because he's an actor yeah it comes from acting and A bit. A bit. How did you feel acting and being kind of old? Everybody's hearing it. But if you're in it and you're okay with your character, I mean, that's part of your,

it's almost like more fun to have that exchange and make different choices. If someone's like, try it like this, you're like, great. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I can do that. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, how committed are you, like, in general as an actor, where you're like, no, this is the way it's going to be? Well, you know, I mean, some of it is just how your brain gets interrupted. Yeah. You know, if you're used to not being a lot of that external thing. Yeah. And if you're in a play, you can't be allowing a lot of interferences.

You're not waiting for somebody to tell you something. So you're kind of bred to not be really that flexible. But in comedy, I think like that, it kind of makes sense. But a play's different also, but shooting TV or movies, I mean, you're just burning through takes. You're going to be on that camera

at one angle or another at least two or three times. Yeah. But plays, that's real life. I mean, you're in be on that camera at one angle or another at least two or three times yeah yeah but plays it like that's that's real life i mean you're in it yeah there's no turning back but like you know when you're doing like you know 20 takes of two lines you can do a lot of variations i guess you know you're looking for something authentic yes there's a level of like not just you know you're if you're in a zone and as I realized with McKay and watching everybody you know do where you you'll say okay I have to say this line I'm just gonna do a series yeah right so you're stopping yeah

you're talking to a person yeah who's off-camera yeah and you're just you know generating self motivating yeah about five different versions of the line so you're just saying yeah crazy, crazy to be here. Yeah, it's really crazy to be here. And you're throwing out a lot of improv kind of moments that are, you know, that's very intoxicating. So there's a side of it that I really, really like a lot. And you work with both Kasdans?

Yes. Father and son? Father and son. I've worked with both David Lynch and Jennifer Lynch. Yeah, it's really interesting when you see generations coming through, you know, feel that way. Did you work with Burt Lancaster? Yes. Towards the end?

Towards the end of the last film. Really? The Rocket Gibraltar. Was that amazing, though? It was an amazing experience. Yeah? Just to be around him. I was very, you know, always aware of who he was.

Sure. But by the time we're making Rocket Gibraltar, you know, there's people who, younger generation, who didn't know Burt Lancaster. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, just watching him move through the world, you know, somewhat becoming, you know, he was a little bit uh not recognized in public situations and things at that point you know yeah and uh but still such a bearing

and such generosity you know he had a real poise as a person you know great actor i mean he was a huge movie star oh yeah a huge movie so huge and he A huge movie star. So huge. And he's so good. Yeah. I like watched his first couple of films recently and it's just astounding because he could do anything. Yeah. Like any type of role. Yeah.

He's just one of those guys. Yeah. He could play heavy, he could play a lighty. Right. You know. Right. The Swimmer.

The Swimmer is a crazy movie. Crazy movie. It's such a sad, weird movie. Yeah. That guy's swimming home. Yeah. Through the pools in his community.

Really? It's just like a, and then he gets to the house, right, and it's empty and his life is gone, right? Yeah. Oh, my God. It's an achiever story, I think. I think he knew, you know, he treasured talking about what things he really liked. You know, he was part of some director's vision that he really admired. You know, it wasn't about him.

Right. It was about being in, you know, working with somebody who was, you know, creating this world that he got to be part of. In general or that movie? I think in general. Yeah. You know, went to a couple of dinners with him. Oh, yeah. And he talked about it.

Got to know him. Oh, yeah. And he talked about it. Got to know him. Yeah. And I realized that, you know, and then he said, you know, I had my own production company, so I would do what was really popular with my own production company to make the money, you know, the pirate movies and things like that. And then that would allow him to work with other directors that he really admired. Yeah. I mean, I think that's when you talk to actors, I mean, the ones that understand that and And that would allow him to work with other directors that he really admired. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's when you talk to actors, I mean, the ones that understand that and appreciate that, that they are this sort of like, they are part of this storytelling process that is the director's vision. Yeah. It's kind of a, that's the job in a way, right? Yeah. I just watched a big, I watched an old documentary about Kirk Douglas. That guy was an animal. I mean, he did a million movies. Yeah. You really think about Kirk Douglas. That guy was an animal. I mean, he did a million movies. You really think about Kirk Douglas and that intensity? And they worked together a lot.

I mean, Kirk and Bert, they were friends. And Michael's in it. It was so touching. You forget that these guys made a hundred movies. Yeah, really huge. You've made a lot of movies. But that's the thing about television.

When you talk about, you know, do the God Mike and that kind of thing, you know, there's a part of television that really is I'm not wired for, which is I'm used to a director. I'm used to one vision. And on television, you know, directors can be subordinate. Right, right, because they come and go, but the show already has its look. That was laid down by the first director. Yeah.

So they're honoring a template. Yeah. And it's sort of a by the numbers kind of thing a lot of times. It's really challenging. I have a lot of empathy for him on the set because you realize, I always think of that Bertrand Ruff's little thing about critics. Yeah. Unix at the party. He's just like, wow, you get fun?

Is this fun? Right. Come in to do this? And you have to be so obedient to other people. To the producer, right? Yeah. But some people have a knack for it. And I've come to really appreciate the ones that really can come in, see the limits.

They know where they go off the road. They stay on the road. They stay on the road, and they have their own investment in it, and they find their own territory that they can own. Yeah, some of them are clever like that. I mean, like in the sense that if they're not going in thinking like, eh, it's just another gig. But if they're sort of like, how can I find a few little areas where I can do what I am building for myself?

But there's a lot of broken, washed up people who are just kind of going through the motions. And they've been carried along by the business for years. That's a big machine, television. My father used to say, oh, you get on television, you're selling soap. That was, you know, it's changed a lot from those days. Sure. But still there's something corporate about it. Yeah, absolutely.

And I guess with some movies there is too in the bigger budget movies. But still like as an actor, you're still able to kind of focus on your thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You do those, like Bert, you know, do those, and then you get to do the more esoteric things. So outside of the center, are you doing...

But you also work... It's interesting that that spaceball thing is... Because I don't think... You know, you can do comedy, but you don't do a ton of it, right? But you were, like, with Candy and, you know, Moranis and all those guys. Right at the beginning of your career, I mean,

was there a moment where you were like, yeah, I can't do any more comedy? Or were you like, I'm going to do comedy? You know, I always, I think, you know, I think I like Lynch because there's some humor in there. Oh, yeah. You know, there's just so much, and I love that mix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got some kind of twinkle going on. Right, right, there. Oh, yeah. You know, there's just so much, and I love that mix. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You've got some kind of twinkle going on. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, and it's odd, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Mel Brooks is different. Yeah, that was like working with a whole genius level of creativity. I think of his power naps. When he would come out of power nap with the ideas,

talk about dreaming. I don't know whatever he would do in those 10-minute naps, but he'd come out of it loaded for bear. Yeah, his brain's on fire. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just it's like the entire history of Jewish comedy flowing through him at all times.

You know, just in terms of words i mean talk about just all i could do was just do whatever he said yeah but he would do line readings you know but uh i just loved his line reading because you know that he wasn't asking you to do it exactly like that right you know he would he would do a very jewish version of it you know and the mel brooks version the mel brooks and i think i'd get so distracted by because i'd so intrigued like when he would do the jewish princess you know definitely his part he was so brilliant you know with attitude and like arrogance and he'd throw it all in and one lining reading yeah yeah but he was like a big learning thing because he was saying pullman you're just taking too long you know you gotta you gotta commit to something you know you're gonna be doing press for this in japan

you're going that's how i should have done that line right right it was like know why you're gonna do the line you know wow it was really interesting training training for me coming out. And also people like Candy, who was an established, he knew who he was comedically. Yeah, but I think he was also a little scared around to be, I mean, both he and Rick had come from such different comedy. Right, right, right, right, right. They were committing. They were box office heffes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Mel was actually on the skids, you know. Right. So at that point, it was a challenge for Mel to, you know, just say, I'm going to work with these other new comics, and I'm going to allow them to do whatever they want. Wow. But you could tell there would be, you know, a little friction.

Tension, sure, sure. Like, I do it this way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get in my face. Right. John's so gentle. His whole comedy was just these small little grace notes that would be just bubbling along.

Yeah, yeah. You could squash them in a second. Oh, right. It was very sensitive, huh? Very sensitive. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's too much. But he always looked out for me, John.

So he knew he had power. Right. But he just was not comfortable always to assert power. Oh, right, right, right. So he made sure you didn't get crushed? Well, he did what he can. He consoled me. So I used to go to his trailer to have his Pritikin diet lunches.

Yeah, yeah, right. And he would always, you know, we'd drink this real cruel, just thin, brothy kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, right. And then he would always, you know, we'd drink this real cruel, you know, just thin, brothy kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd say, hey, this is kind of good. And then his driver, Frankie, was always with him. I'd bring in a dozen donuts, you know. I'd finish up with donuts. But he was like, you guys would come down from the Melbrook storm together?

Yeah, yeah, I think so. You'd say, come on in here. Let's hang out. Let's hang out and talk about other things. Yeah, that's nice. That's nice that you met all these guys, good times. So now what are you going to be doing now? You got theater on the horizon?

I'm going to try to just clear the, clear the dockets for a little bit. So. Do some canning. Yeah. Might be just get back into the orchard for a little while. And, you know,

got a, a few things going on in, in LA. So I'd like to stay in LA for a little bit, you know. Yeah. It's been interesting. I,

you know, it's been lucky to get a lot of work, even during COVID, you know. Sure. So we did Halston, which is the five-part series. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. We did last year.

I haven't watched that yet. That's with McGregor? Yeah, Ewan McGregor. People like it. I think it's an interesting journey. But right now, I think it's going to be good to just kind of wait and see for a little bit. Yeah, why not?

Yeah, relax. Yeah. You got how many kids you got around? Three. And they're all in town? Yep, they're all. And your wife is in the business? No.

No? All right. Well, that's good. It's nice to be around the family. Just, you know, I got to go. I go into New York for a few days, and I'm sort of like, oh, God. Like, you guys who act. Because I do some acting, but I get offered stuff, small movies, and they're like, it's like six weeks in New Orleans.

I'm like, I don't live that life, man. Yeah. Must be hard for you. How do you break your rhythm? Well, that's it. But if you're an actor, you're used to that. I mean, you get offers that sort of like, this is going to be like six months. Yeah.

You're going to hear that. Maybe you can see six months. Yeah. You're going to hear that. Here's the, you know, maybe you can see your family, you know, you know, you know, all you're worried about is like, am I going to be comfortable, but you have to go away. I go nuts. Yeah. I've got cats. I'm away for four days. I'm like, what the fuck are the cats going to do? But I'm a lunatic. I almost didn't move out of my old house because the cat was comfortable outside there. So I've got to refigure i think i'm surrendering a little too much power to these animals that don't give a shit yeah but uh but yeah i mean it's it's a weird job acting you got to be willing to you know like all right this is part of it i'm gonna go to uh ireland for a year yeah yeah which i would Which I would love, actually. That would be great.

Yeah, yeah. I'm ready to get out. You're ready to leave the cats. This place is going down. It's time to find another land. I see your neighbors are Halloween people. Oh, he's a big man. Do you do Halloween?

Do you give out candy? We've made a couple pumpkins, carved a couple pumpkins. Yeah, I gave out candy. The place was, it was crazy this Halloween. It was nice. Yeah. Because last year it was just sad. But this year, they were out with a vengeance.

Parents with their little kids coming over. Yeah, I bought like four bags of candy and I went through all of it. I didn't even get to stash any for myself. Oh, yeah. I almost pre-stashed it. That was like, I'm like, I'm going to put this in the freezer for me. Like the Twix part. But then they kept coming. I'm like, nah, fuck. I guess I-stashed it. That was like, I'm like, I'm going to put this in the freezer for me. Like the Twix bars. But then they kept coming.

I'm like, nah, fuck. I guess I bought it for them. But it is the gift of LA that you could be at Glendale. You have this neighborhood. So you have a sense of community. I love it. Yeah, I know my neighbors. Yeah, that guy.

He's in the business. The guy with all the stuff on his yard still. I think he's at Disney, he does something. But every year with the Halloween, he had a whole operating room set up out there. This year is Oregon. He does a thing. It's his thing, man.

Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Keep it up. It's nice, it's nice, yeah. Well, it was great talking to you, pal. Well, good to talk to you, Mark. Phil Pullman, The Sinner, the finale. This Wednesday, December 1st on USA Network.

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