WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1287 - Halle Berry

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

Halle Berry wasn't supposed to be in the movie Bruised. And she definitely wasn't supposed to direct the movie Bruised. Then she wound up being in it and directing it, but no one wanted to take a chance on it. Now it's such a hit for Netflix that they've signed her to a multi-picture deal. Halle tells Marc what it took to get to this place in her life and career, transcending her childhood of abuse to create a portfolio of performances where she breathes life into broken people.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies

what the fuck nicks what's happening i should sound a little better, but Jesus, man, I got filled with snot to the brim. Filled with snot to the brim last week. It was kind of a rough week, sickness-wise. I mean, last week I got the cold, and it just filled me up and knocked me out for a few days. And then I flew out to New Mexico to see my dad, and I was out there. And the cold was sort of holding on. Because I don't know, man. I'm sorry. How are you?

These people are like, I never get colds. They last three days. They last a week at least. I mean, you might not feel sick, but you're filled with gop, goop, glop, snot. But I'm back on track. I'm back home. I'll tell you about my dad, but maybe I should talk about the show a little bit. A couple of things. Halle Berry is here. You know her. She's

amazing actor, Oscar winner, and now she's a director. Her directorial debut is called Bruised, and it immediately became the number one movie on Netflix when it premiered last month. And then right after that, Halle signed a new multi-picture deal with Netflix. All right, we'll talk all about this stuff, this new chapter in her career and about a lot of other stuff. I definitely got into it pretty deep with uh hallie barry she's great i related to her we had a very open conversation about a lot of things and to be honest with you the movie is kind of visceral i mean right away i mean we talk about the nature of that genre you know the underdog fight movie but she's very aware of what uh what's up with

that genre and how she wanted to change it but i I'll tell you, man, the movie just goes. And she is always fully committed as an actress. Really kind of astounding in terms of the emotional risks she's willing to take. Also, there's a holiday cat mug sale starting today at noon eastern time brian jones who hand makes the mugs that i give to my guests has some new mugs that you can only get from his website so noon today go to brian r jones.com slash wtf i'll tell you watching bruised the Halle Berry movie a lot of times I watch stuff because you know I want to know I want to be up to speed for the guests I don't know how it's going to land or whether I'm going to like it but I was I don't watch movies I don't watch action movies I don't

watch fight movies I just don't I probably would like them too much I would probably get hooked on them but this one just took me right away because there's so much heart in it i was excited to talk to her because of that so look i know there's a run on used cars because new cars are hard to come by because of supply chain issues and some people are overpricing used cars it's hard to trust people with used cars. It's hard to trust individuals selling their used cars. It's hard to trust in general, sadly. And I was just dealing with a fairly reasonably priced car because I wanted to help my friend Kit out. She's been hanging around with me for a while and she's been there for me in some difficult times and her car died and i wanted

to get her a car and it became a real fucking problem so the carvana thing fell through after a month she's taking the fucking bus and the train which is not bad i mean you know nothing wrong with public transport but still i just wanted to get a reasonably priced used car that had some fucking juice left in it. So this kind of is convoluted story. I go home to visit my dad who goes to the hospital. He needed to go to the hospital because he had all these symptoms, couldn't remember anything. He was shuffling in his gate. He had no balance.

There was a lot of things going on mentally, and there was a lot of assumptions being made about what he might have. But it turns out he had a grown old man hydrocephalus. I think that's how you pronounce it. This water on the brain that was, you know, causing problems. And he had to get it drained. And it just happened coincidentally when I was there. We had a couple of days together, had some great laughs, ate some food. It was great to see my old man. I know a lot of you know that you know sometimes i've been at odds with him in my life but i'm showing up for the guy the best i can and i always enjoy making him laugh i think he was my original audience but he went in got a spinal tap draining the fluid and apparently some of his brain's coming back so

if that's the problem that's a fucking miracle we'll see then i realized while I'm there that my dad's wife, Rosie, has a nephew who would be my cousin by marriage. I don't deal with my cousins from birth. I don't deal with my I just don't deal with family that much. It's probably a mistake. And I don't like to deal with them when I need something. If that's the only time you deal with them. But this was sort of a good introduction in a way. them when i need something if that's the only time you deal with them but this was sort of a good introduction in a way her nephew gary padilla over there at uh houston wholesale auto on lomas in albuquerque new mexico i'm like let me talk to gary man maybe he can maybe he's got a car over there because i know him he's family he's my cuz you know i'll know where the car comes from this seemed like the best idea i could

possibly come up with and i went over there and there was a fucking 2012 hyundai elantra sparkly blue that somebody loved the windows were tinted the the leather seats were still intact and nice the interior looked great there's nothing better than finding a used car especially a reasonable used car that somebody clearly cared for. You could feel it. And I'm like, this is it, man. And he was like, I know. This is it.

And I'm like, this is it. Let's do it. Can we knock it out? And he's like, let me get it cleaned up and repainted. I'm like, I don't got time for that. He's like, just let me take care of it. So he got it all checked out, took the tint off the windshield, left the windows because, you know, kit's cool. And actually did have some paint put on there on the windows where it was just weather-worn.

Guy went above and beyond, great deal. And then it was sort of like, should we put it on a truck and have it delivered? I'm like, no, fuck it, man. I'll deliver it. I will deliver this car. I told my friends, I'm like, I'm going to buy this car and deliver it. I'm going to take it home, give it to Kit. So we got the paperwork together. I'm telling my friends, they're like, I'm going to buy this car and deliver. I'm going to take it home, give it to Kit. So we got the paperwork together.

I'm telling my friends, they're like, what are you, 20? Who does that? I'm like, what do you mean? And then it was like really weird because I got up. I left at five in the morning. I'd put two hours in, you know, before the sun even came up in this car. And I got to Flagstaff, you know, before noon. It's like an 11 to 12 hour drive to LA.

And I just got to thinking, I don't live a life like regular people my age. It's not even a matter of feeling my age or being my age. It's just, I don't live that life. This is the life I live where I'm like, fuck it. I'm going to drive this car to Los Angeles tomorrow. And I had to wrap my brain around it.

I had to cancel flights. I had to return a rental car. And I had to be my brain around it. I had to cancel flights, had to return a rental car. And I had to be back yesterday to do a moderative panel and talk to Peter Dinklage. But I drove that car back, man. I drove it back. And it was also a way to see if it was a good car. It's a great car. But I just started thinking, man, if you have a grounded life and you feel secure, better make sure you're living it, that life. I drove that car, man. I drove that sparkly blue 2012 Hyundai Elantra like a cowboy through the desert, baby. Had water and cashews in the car, thinking.

That's the other thing. Either you're a driver or you're not. I come from a family of drivers, runners. I don't know. It's just that me and my brother, we love to drive. My father, drive. Hours, hours. His wife's a driver.

So stopped at a truck stop. It had been so long. This is a big, there's a lot of truckers out there right now i have to assume because of the supply chain backup now there's just an overload and also no one leaves their house anymore so everything has to move everything has to be delivered it was always busy but it seemed really fucking busy and uh i stopped at a truck stop, and I was like, wow, this is in the middle of fucking Arizona or wherever, maybe, you know, western New Mexico. I was like, this is the most diverse environment I think I've been in in ages.

There was like, you know, Indian guys there, maybe Pakistani guys there, black dudes, Mexican dudes, Asian dudes, like, you know, all kinds of people. And they're truck drivers. I just realized this is like on the road community of people in sweatpants that climb out of fucking vessels after hours and hours of being in them to shower and wash their face, brush their teeth, get some coffee.

And I went to the bathroom. It was like crazy crazy it's like just people like you know waking up everyone's waking up together people of all kinds in their sweat pants they're driving sweats and i'm just waiting to use a stall because i gotta go to the bathroom some guy's waiting before me and there's like three or four stalls it's a weird moment this huge dude was waiting to go before me into a stall and like look it's filthy it's fucking filthy truck stops but what are you gonna do a lot of movement in there a lot of people coming through so some dude leaves a stall and then this big dude walks into that stall turns around and runs away like run like something in there terrified him or maybe the guy who was in there just before forgot something i don't know what happened but this guy lit out

of that stall and i look around i'm like what's up and i went in there and like what could be in here that could be so terrifying now i'm a grown person but this has happened and I'm like, what could be in here that could be so terrifying? Now, I'm a grown person, but this has happened. And I'm a grown person. I've seen some pretty nasty shit, literally, in bathrooms. Whether they be porta-potties or public restrooms. A lot goes on there. You know, you can't account for what someone does to their insides. But this guy ran out of there.

But I walk in there and they're all automatic flush toilets. You can't account for what someone does to their insides. But this guy ran out of there. But I walk in there, and they're all automatic flush toilets, and I guess this one wasn't working maybe. But there was like a turd the size of like a forearm in there, and part of it was out of the water. So that's scary. I mean, really, that would scare anybody. You don't know if it's going to jump out at you.

You don't, you know. It looked like it was poised to go. So by the look of that thing, I thought maybe that guy ran out. Maybe get that guy's autograph because this thing was like, or maybe he just couldn't handle it I don't know but I just fucking you know there's a button on those kind of toilets just push it and it'll flush and there and then I was free I was free to do my

business which was you know minimal in comparison you know there are there are people that do the big work there then there are those of us who you know just hope we can do the work at all and you know and want to be healthy ran out of there maybe just want to shake that guy's hand i don't know not sure this is the best lead-in but it is what it is it's a, and it's a real memory, and it might be a children's book. Halle Berry is deeply talented, emotionally present, and was amazing to talk to. Her new film, Bruised, that she directed and stars in is now streaming on Netflix, and this is me talking to her. in Starzin is now streaming on Netflix. And this is me talking to you.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. You'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Chris Spencer says hi. Oh. Yes.

Were you just talking to him? Well, I saw him last night. We do comedy, so he was on before me. Oh. I work at the comedy store. Yeah. And I told him I was talking to him. He's like, oh, tell her I said hi.

And I'm like, do you really know her? And he's like, yes. Yes, I do. Yes. We do. But he said that he's directing a movie as well. Is he? Yes.

So you didn't know that. I didn't know that. Well, now you know. And he said that he was using the cinematographer you used on Bruised. Frankie DiMarco? No. Well, I had two. Who was the other guy?

Unfortunately. Josh Reyes? They don't sound either one of those sounds familiar. You had two? One got let go halfway through. Yeah. And then another one showed up on a Monday. It was something rare that hardly ever happens.

Oh, really? But on this movie, to tell you the truth. Yeah. Anything could happen. Everybody said, in all my years, I've never seen this happen. If I heard that one more time, my head was going to explode. Like about what? Everything.

Oh, really? The crazy things that were happening to me, people were saying in all my years, I've never seen this happen. Like what? Another day later. And all my, well, like that, having to have two DPs, one guy getting gone and another guy showing up that I never met, never talked to, and them saying, here's your new DP. And I'm like, oh, nice to meet you right in the middle of shooting. Wow. It's crazy. So many things. meet you right in the middle of shooting wow right so it's crazy so many things but you know the movie looks so great well thank you I mean like you know it's

got a very like you know the the sort of it kind of vibrates it's electric you know and I like all that close-up stuff and the handheld stuff yeah like it really goes yeah and the budget you know dictates a lot of that sure you know like I, what will be the most effective way to shoot this movie and have it be gritty and dark and real? Yeah. What would be the best way? So it was pretty much all handheld and a budget. But what is the story of this movie? Because it seems like kind of a, like the little movie that could, you know.

It is. Right? Yeah. I mean, all of a sudden there's this movie and then, you know, all of a sudden, you know, you get this great opportunity to to make more movies for Netflix. And I think for a while there you couldn't even get you couldn't even sell this movie. Right. Well, yeah, it was hard to get people to believe that a movie about a woman living in this environment was worth telling you know when you think a classic fight movie yeah that's really true and being a woman of color absolutely true really because like it just seems like in the culture we live in people love watching people beat the shit out of each other but not women and not a black woman we've never seen that before i don't

know i know it was something they'd never seen and that's the problem because nobody's ever seen it there was all this trepidation. I argued, that's the reason you should do it because nobody's ever seen it. Right. It's a new version of an old genre. Why do you want to see the same thing

over and over? Aren't we tired of that? Right. Can we have a modern day take on this genre? Right. And the genre is, you know,

a sort of proven success. The genre is. Yeah. And people love the genre. They love an underdog fight movie, right? But my argument was, but let's tell it from a female point of view. You've never seen a black woman do it. Let's make it different.

Was it always that? Was it scripted that way? No, it wasn't. I mean, what was the history of the movie? The history was it came to me and it was written for a 21-year-old Irish Catholic girl. Blake Lively was attached at the time. Yeah, I love these stories. Yeah, and it wasn't for me at all and i read it and i said to my agent it was my first script my

new agent i just had gone to wme and they handed me this script and i read it overnight and said it came back i love it let let me change it and then i want to do it and they said well it belongs to blake lively so you can't actually have it. And I thought. As a director or as an actor? As an actor. So it just came to you as an actor. Yeah. But it didn't really come to me because it was with Blake. They just said, well, we just wanted to know if this is the kind of thing you would like to do.

And I said, this is not fair. Like, is this how we're going to start our relationship? Right. You can't do this. But isn't it amazing? Yes. Yes. Is this what you want to do?

Yeah. So they said, we don't know. I kept saying, I have to do this. I'm going to die. I'm going to die if I don't get to reimagine this. Like, this is cruel. Yeah. And they said, well, you have to just wait because Blake was also a client.

Yeah. And how they handled this was very important to me. You know, if they backhanded it and took it from her in some way because I was passionate to poach me because I was a new client. I was watching. from her in some way because I was passionate to poach me because I was a new client. I was watching.

Isn't it weird as an actor, like, and you've been doing this a long time, where you realize these people that are working for you, you've got to second guess

everything in a way, like, how is this being used? How am I being used? What's the game here? What are they doing? Yeah, and you know,

if they do some shady shit to her, I'm going to be the shady shit person, you know, done to you in about five minutes. So I was very keen to watch how they handled it.

And to their credit, they said, look, it's hers. We can't say anything to her about it. And I suggest you don't even say you read it. If she passes on it, you know, her own volition. Oh, so she wasn't really attached yet. She was. She was. She was all ready to do it.

And she was going to do it. But they said if some odd chance she doesn't, we'll make sure, because we'll have control of it if she drops it, that it gets into your hands. So I had to wait six months before, you know, she just decided that she wasn't want to her to feel like they were trying to you know get rid of it they just said we have to leave it with her and we'll let her decide and so finally it but in that six months it gave me a lot of time to work on my reimagining oh yeah and i just believed that she wasn't going to do it and i've said when she doesn't i need to be ready with my pitch my story have it all flushed out so i can go to those producers and like bam right all in my head what were some of let me try and guess what the changes were was the trainer always a woman yes okay but a different woman not an african-american not an african obviously yeah no and uh what uh what else how what were the changes you made a big change the little boy yeah spoke a lot a lot in the screenplay that was so

heavy man like you know it's like It's so heavy, that dynamic. I'll tell you one thing for sure. You're a great actor, and you really commit in an emotional way that's very rare and seems very risky to me. Do you feel that when you do that? I love it. I love it. You do, right? That just gets me feeling alive to put it all do right like that that just gets me feeling alive yeah

yeah to put it all out there like that and go to those dark places and dare to expose it and expose yourself in the process but also expose these really real emotions that people are really struggling with oh yeah and grappling it's real shit it's not it's what everyday people uh struggle with in all walks of life, black and white. It's the truth of humanity. All right. So the kid talked a lot. He talked a lot.

Yeah. And because the original character was so young, she gave up the kid because she was just too young to be a mother. So I had to rearrange the story and make sense out of why would a woman in her 30s give up a child when she's got you know so to you mean to uh to just make it adapted to your age yeah and to make us under like you understand why a young woman would give up a child not ready to be a mom but you don't really understand why 35 yeah a woman would give up a child right we don't do that as well yeah so i had to create those circumstances as to why a woman would do that. Right. So that meant, you know, that all had to be created.

And I had to, too, also get with, which he doesn't get credited on the movie, but Stephen Adly-Gergis came in, who's, you know, a brilliant playwright. Okay. Had to come in and, like, help us with the world, with the coloring of the world. Oh, really? And the dialogue. Yeah. And Immaculate wasn't immaculate. That's a Stephen Adly-Gergis addition.

Right. He writes these worlds. I don't know, did you ever see Between Riverside and Crazy? Mm-mm. You want his Pulitzer for? No. I mean, he writes this world and these characters so beautifully, and they're tragic, and they're broken broken and there's such humanity in them.

So he kind of went over the script? Yeah, he went over the script with me and did a real dialogue pass to help bring out these characterizations of these. Really? Yeah. And you had done that already? I had worked on the story. Yeah. But Stephen, you know, and to Michelle's credit, Michelle Rosenfarb, you know, she, this world.

The original script? Yeah, the original script. This wasn't her world. This black inner city, Newark. Yeah, Newark. Wasn't her. Not a lot of Newark movies. No, not a lot of Newark movies.

Yeah, it's good. So, you know, Steven came in to, you know, just color that up. Color that dialogue. Who's responsible for, you know, that scene between the mother and daughter where you find out how bad that mother is because of what your character is saying to her? Yeah. I mean, that was heavy shit, man. Yeah. Was that all in there?

No, that was all added. That was all added. By you and Steven? Yeah, especially me, because that is, you know, what I know to be true is that so many of these stories, especially with women, which is why the film had to stay. I wanted a female director before it was me. It had to be told from this female gaze because so many women have been abused this way throughout families. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And we're marginalized. And so that had to be a part of it for me. It had to be a part of what their dysfunction was all about. And when you say that bad mother, I see it differently. It's not a bad mother. She was the kind of mother she was based on the lack of love she received. Yeah, I mean, so there's no bad. There's just people trying to survive the damage that's been done to them. I guess I'm not I don't mean morally bad, but I mean, she was not a good parent. No, no. So I think that's been done to them i guess i'm not i don't mean morally bad but i mean she was not a good parent no no so i think that's right i think that's what i mean i don't i know that that was care that you were careful to you know exude and capture empathy on all sides yeah really yeah because i don't think there's very they're bad good people we're all people trying

to survive and struggle um and and survive the wounds of our past well right but what we were given and not given the love we got the love we didn't get i know right the things that were poured into us and the things that were spilled into like you know it's not always under our within our control i get that you know but like lately i've just been a little nutty about like you know uh people who don't take responsibility for their fucking mental illness out in the world. Yes.

Then it is your responsibility because when you grow up and you realize you had a fucked childhood and you didn't get all the love, then you have to do something about it. You can't stay stuck on using that as an excuse. I 100% agree.

And I think what Jackie was doing, she was holding her mother responsible. At that moment. Don't tell me you didn't know i know you knew face it right and so healing only comes when you force somebody to face their dysfunction right right and so you feel that the mom kind of softens towards the end and you want to believe that maybe this is a first step in the healing and her taking responsibility that's so yeah i i want to believe that and it was definitely a touching moment. And, you know, sort of like because of the genre, you kind of know, you're hoping for,

like, oh, I remember I texted my producer, I'm watching the thing, I'm like, this better not go down like Million Dollar Baby, because I can't take it. Like if she... What would that have been, if she died? Like if she ends up in a wheelchair, like I'm not going to be able to fucking deal

with this movie at this pace. And he said, no, I think it's going to go the other way. Thank God. Yeah. But that moment, well, I mean, I've seen a lot of movies lately where, you know, the underdog remains the underdog. Yeah. Yeah. And I felt that moment, you know, where she's watching the fight and you feel like, and also when you go get the kid at the end.

Also, when you go get the kid at the end. But I had this argument with Benedict Cumberbatch. And I guess it's a movie argument where, you know, does that woman become a better person? I don't know. Like in my experience of people and the reason maybe I judge harshly is because most people, even if they know, they stay in their shit. You know, this has got nothing to do with the movie, obviously. It's just the idea of empathy you know

it's true and they stay in their shit but sometimes the idea of movies and art is to get people to look at it more closely

do we have to stay in our shit you know or can we make small steps that evolve us to a place where we do

have more understanding with each other we do we can you know and we also saw that the mother when the fight was going on we saw we saw that there's love that evolve us to a place where we do have more understanding with each other. We do. We can. And we also saw that the mother, when the fight was going on, we saw that there's love. It's hard for me to believe that you birthed a child and you don't have innate love in your heart for that. Of course.

And she's also a drug addict and made compromises and can't live with herself. Yeah. It's human. It's what we do as humans. I know. I know. It's what we do as humans. I know. I know. It's what we do. I think that a lot of times I get judgmental and I get angry because in moments I don't want to deal with my own shit.

So it's easier to go like, nah, fuck that person. You know what I mean? Yeah. But that's just the nature of it too. That's the ebb and flow of it. You grow and then you drop back a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So when, because the one questions i have because i really

i like the movie and i don't watch a lot of movies like that and i don't know if there is a movie like that but i don't i don't generally watch action movies right but yeah how can you not like that movie and it's doing very well right it is people like are getting off on it because i think a lot of it has to do with because i thought is this just a fight movie but it's not it's all the things you're talking about like you know right away it seems very like very real stuff you don't even know like just the little suggestions about what happened to the kid's father and that song it's just heartbreaking it's so heartbreaking and what about that choice you made on the street you know when that when you guys come across that speaker playing that song

yeah and that kid curls up but you chose not to hug him yeah because she's not there yet but you knew that right that was that was a choice you're like choice yeah you're not instantly a mother when you give up a kid and you don't know the child when he returned he was a stranger she gave him up right but you were also very self you know selfish right yeah selfish but also not knowing what to do right doesn't know that's what she would do yeah you know that's what a good mother yet as a painful choice man yeah to sit there as an audience member like really but she knew she had to let him grieve yes she got that taking him to the side and letting him deal was

important as opposed to rushing him on right but she didn't know what to do with that that was a lot for her in that moment. Yeah. You know? So what, how, when you took this on, this is the first movie you directed.

And it's really good. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So, so like, so like this, let's get back to the history of the movie.

So you, you know, she gives up the movie, you get the movie. How do you end up directing the movie? Well, it's not something I wanted to do really shoot you straight no i mean i had a big acting role you know to play a fighter i spent two years training did you spend you did you always want to direct or you never wanted to direct maybe but i was going to do a little short first i was writing a short on plastic surgery and that's what i thought i was gonna do

wrote it got it ready to go it's just about plastic surgery. And that's what I thought I was going to do. Wrote it, got it ready to go. What was that about? It's just about plastic surgery and my take on what's happening to women and the absurdity of it all. A fiction? Yeah. A comedy? Yeah. Tragic comedy.

Okay. That's interesting. That was the approach of a woman of your stature and your experience in acting. You're like, I'm going to make a short and maybe see if I get it to festivals. Because I just want to go to festivals. Like, I'm dreaming to go to a festival. But also, I think it comes from maybe a little insecurity. Yeah.

And not being so bodacious to think I can just go do a feature. You know, just because I'm an actor doesn't mean I should be able to direct a film. But it's interesting. As an actor, you know, you've been watching people direct you for like 20, 30 years. Yes. Yes. But I have so much respect for what a director does that I didn't think initially. And I think many women, especially women of color, I don't think there's nothing that's

ever been shown to me that made me think I can. Sure, I can do that. You know, and I think as women, we often don't think we can. It's not. I know as a man, you probably don't see it that way because, you know, I don't know. Men are men. You guys think you can do everything. I know. I generally don't think I can.'s not i know as a man you probably don't see it that way because you know i don't know men are men you guys think you can do everything i know i generally don't i know you do yes you do i think we have opportunities yes right i don't know that every man thinks they can do it but we know we could if we wanted to probably i think so and i think as women we don't we don't

grow with that knowing right so no i never thought i could i thought I would have to prove myself every step of the way. What an exciting opportunity. You must have freaked out. So how does it happen? I did freak out because I went to the producers. I gave them my pitch, my reimagining. They said, great, we love this reimagining. Now go find a filmmaker to tell this story.

And I said, okay. I knew that I wanted it to be a woman, to keep this female gaze. And I met with some people. And the problem was, is that this reimagining wasn't on the page yet. I knew that I wanted it to be a woman. Yeah, this female gaze and I met with some people and The problem was is that this reimagining wasn't on the page yet. It was only in my head So I had to sit down with filmmakers and say okay. Here's what it is. And the problem I ran into was They either liked the indie art house feeling of the dramatic story and the smallness of that and they didn't quite get but why

Does it have to be a fight movie? Can we just tell the story of these fractured broken people yeah or or the other directors would say i just want to do a straight up fight film like i don't want all this drama i just want to do a simple story about a woman getting her kid back and then that's just it and i knew that those two were connected for me yeah you can't have the drama without the fight right and the fight was only happening because of the drama right so i couldn't find someone that saw the totality of the vision that i had in my head so i finally went home and i was talking to my producing partner elaine goldsmith and she said why don't you just do it and i said are you high are you smoking yeah bring me some of it because I know I can.

She goes, absolutely, you can. You just don't think you can. Oh, she's the trainer. Yeah, she was the trainer. She was the trainer for me. She said, you absolutely, you love this story. You know it. You've imagined it now for six months.

You've been training. You can pull off this role. Yes, you can do it. And I smoked on it for 48 hours and then said you know what yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna go to the producer and i'm gonna say hey what about me and i fully expected them to shut me down and say and i was prepared to give him like your smoke on this you might be clearer and to my surprise he said yes he He goes, yes, yes, yes. You do seem to get it, so yes. Wow.

And then I had to go do it. Now, who were these producers? Basil Iwanek from Thunder Road. Okay, oh yeah. Brad Feinstein from Romulus and Gaiman Cassidy from 360. Three different places. Three different places, yeah. Three different dudes.

Three different dudes. Three different dudes. And they were like, why not? Why not? It's interesting, man, because it must have been like a thrill. I mean, it's such a great opportunity for something you were nervous about, and then you just got to dive in and do it. And you know, that's what's curious about the DP thing, because you know, you've been

on enough sets to know, yeah, directors are great, but DPs, they're the ones. You need a DP. Oh, yeah. been on enough sets to know like yeah directors are great but dps are oh my god you need you need a dp so imagine how i felt when they told me they came to me and said okay dp leaving at the end of day a new one coming halfway through exactly halfway so but the new dp could look at the dailies right and they and you could see the tone the tone was set the tone was set yeah yeah the problem was i just didn't never had a conversation with the new DP. Oh, yeah. Did it work out all right?

Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately. I mean, I feel like it did, but it was still very unsettling. I'm a first-time director, and to have this happen, because I had built a relationship with my first DP. Right. And you were nervous.

We'd watch movies together. Right. You trusted him, and you felt supported. You know, and so to lose him was destabilizing to say the least but it turned out okay but i can't say i didn't you know right vomit that whole weekend and and also the acting and directing at the same time is crazy it's crazy so were you looking at at shots right after did you have a playback i played back and i had a handheld that was attached to my hip and i was you know it slowed down our process which for a small movie like this you know could be very detrimental it meant we didn't get to do as many takes as because i always had to take time

to go back and look i don't know how the hell you did that because with you know the emotions of that particular character how are you how are you in that you had to go look how are you going to be in the moment and direct other actors and still be in character? Yeah, which was difficult. I had a woman with me who was our dialect coach for everybody. And she proved to be very helpful because I would find myself in the scene and I'm talking to the other actors and I'm getting them set and I'm listening to what they're having to say. And so we'd run the scene and I'd be watching. they're having to say which we can and so we'd run the scene and i'd be watching like i'm watching the other actors and i'm listening and i'm trying to figure out if what they're doing is actually

working and so my little angel i called her denise would come up to me and she would say okay the actors are all great yeah how you act right stop directing oh good you're in the scene with them remember and then i would go oh oh, shit. You're right. I'm acting too. And then I could forget about them and drop into my character and forget and just do my part in the scene. They actually were all pretty great. They were amazing. And I didn't know most of them.

Well, they're from the stage. Makes such a difference. Stephen McKinley. You know Stephen McKinley. The guy who played your- Pops. Yes, he's- Oh, yeah, that guy. Yeah, yeah of course he's been around forever oh my god stay at a beautiful he played the old trainer you gotta have an old trainer you gotta have the old trainer soft good guy yeah in a boxing movie Sheila A. Tim she's um a British actress she's great quick question I

just want to know from my own mind was there ever a conversation where you didn't consummate that relationship yes yes why was why did you choose to because i felt like the character of jackie needed love like the air to breathe yeah and wherever that didn't know how to take it though no didn't know how to take it because she never had it oh really right okay but she needed it like the air to breathe and i didn't believe that she could go on and stay in that fight without getting that without having some relationship with someone that got her that validated her that affirmed her in some way that gave her strength to go in that cage and realize she belonged there she deserved success you know i think it's hard for broken people to realize they believe good things without some form of love, some form of support.

So that had to happen in my mind to make her stay, not run. It was just sort of an interesting choice. Because in my mind, just from the genre, I'm like, she's going to show up in the corner. I know, see? I know. You didn't want to do that. You didn't want to do it. No, I didn't.

And I wanted the message to be, she did that all by herself. And the fact that, you know, the movie ends like it ends. Yeah. We need to feel like that she's going to be able to go back, get her son, and she's going to be able to handle it all by herself. It's not going to be about a man. It's not going to be about this woman. It's going to be about her standing on her own two feet, believing that she's strong enough. Yeah.

Because, you know, that's half the reason we don't do things in life. It's just we don't believe we can. Right? So, like, now that I've directed my first movie when I didn't think I could, I now believe I can do this again. Well, you're gonna.

I know I can because I've done it now. Right? Well, that's a beautiful, weird, happy ending that not just a movie, but just the fact that, like, now you've got a deal to direct how many more i don't know but what is this like you know this like it seems to be like some sort of um coalescence of a lot of the work you've done but you know honestly kind of and

openly focusing on broken people right thinking about broken people how many broken people, right? Thinking about broken people. How many broken people have you played? My best characters have been the most broken. Right? Put it that way. That's where I live. Dorothy Dandridge. Mm-hmm. Broken.

Very broken. I know, you know? It's so, like, strangely, you know, it's just so, like, because I remember watching that when it came out, but then I was sort of watching it again, i was like oh my god and you know she's got a mentally challenged kid and she was abused as a a kid i'm like wow and then you think about you know the the other one the one you won the oscar for was it monster ball yeah that that's not a healthy person

you know i love digging deep i love going to those dark places you can get raw man yeah and and you can do it's so liberating it's so freeing you know like one of the things i loved about even in bruised is that however i showed up every day it was great right you know it's it's being being our truest selves those are the characters that really resonate with me. Yeah, but it seems like you can also do the superhero stuff and the action movie stuff. Yeah, those are fun. Those are release. Someone told me I need a physical release for my anger.

Maybe that's why you do those movies. Well, for some. I punch a pillow. Do you? Or punch a boxing bag. Yeah? Do you box? Kick some shit Of course

You had to train Yeah I learned so many disciplines now Jiu-jitsu Taekwondo Judo Wrestling Boxing

Muay Thai Kickboxing Really? Like I practiced All of these For MMA Yeah And now you can do it

Yeah And do you use it to train? Do you use it to exercise? What's the primary exercise? I'm still studying Jiu-Jitsu I'm working to get my purple belt. Oh, yeah? Mm-hmm. So where does this all start? I mean, what do you come from to have this deep understanding of the broken among us? Where'd you grow up?

I'm broken. Let's be honest. Yeah, yeah. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, in the inner city when I was young with a white mother, black father. My father was an alcoholic and wildly abusive. Really? So I'm broken.

Yeah, and you saw that. Yes, and I understand where it lives and I understand what it takes to rise up out of that. I understand how hard it's been. Do you have siblings? I have an older sister, yeah. With the same parents? Mm-hmm.

So how long were they together, your whole life? No, no. They divorced when I was three, but my father stayed in our life. And he came back in 1976 when I was 10. And my mom thought, my kids are going off the rails. We need a man around here. So she brought my dad back. Really?

He was now more abusive than he ever was. And more in his alcoholism and addiction and his raging and it was probably one of the worst years of all of our lives at one point my dad threw our dog against the wall and the dog bit its tongue off and it was horrific when you're that little and it was frightening and that's probably why i'm drawn to these. I know where this lives. I know the reality of how some people live. But how long did it take you to develop some sense of some sort of empathy for that? I mean, how long were you angry and fighting your own demons and able?

A very long time. But my mother, she was a psych nurse at a VA hospital on the psych ward for all of her career. She had the clarity of thought to put me in therapy that year after my dad left. She saw what it had done. When you were like 11? I was 11, yeah.

She put me in therapy so that I had a healthy place to deal with all of this. And she knew that it wasn't with her because she was part of what allowed this to happen to me by bringing him back. And I can't say she really protected us. Yeah. So she knew that it wasn't with her because she was part of what allowed this to happen to me by bringing him back and i can't say she really protected us yeah you know so she knew that the conversation didn't lie with her so she got me someone to talk to that really i think without

that i don't know what path i would have taken really yeah and that's been a part of my life you know since then not that i'm in in therapy constantly, but I learned at that early age that I have a place to go when the shit hits the fan. And I'm feeling like I need some place to talk and get recalibrated. I have some place to go that's safe, that helps. And you didn't end up an alcoholic? No. That's good. No, my God.

Did you end up like a control freak? Maybe. Maybe. my god did you end up like a control freak maybe maybe i just it's like my my armchair psychology is sort of like if you grow up in a in an erratic alcoholic home you're either gonna end up an alcoholic you're gonna end up like somebody who just wants to control the environment i don't want, I want to control my house. Yes. That's my environment. Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe a little, maybe. I like to say not controlling. I like to say someone that knows that I have to create my reality. It's not going to just pop up. I learned earlier that I have to create my own circumstance. If I sit back and I'm just a victim of it, then that's a problem. I have to create it for myself and how vigilant do you have to stay on top of all this shit like in terms of like

you know just like drifting back into whatever you know bad behavior um what's the bad behavior can my controlling well no i mean just like general, like from from what you come from and from therapy, like because like I don't know what what after the therapy when you were 11, you know, how did how what how did it affect your life the way you brought up like your relationships and stuff? Well, I think it made me someone who looked for love in all the wrong places. I needed love so badly, like I'm like just like the character, like the air to places. I needed love so badly. Like, like just like the character, like the air to breathe. I needed it. So I wanted a man to love me.

Like I always wanted my dad to love me. I always wanted that, you know? And my dad was super handsome. He could sing like Johnny Mathis. He had white teeth, like chiclets. Like I could never understand why this man couldn't love me. Why did he have to be a monster? Why did he have to be a monster?

Why did he have to be a maniac? Like I couldn't, his physical self didn't equate with who he was. Right. Right. So I, I grew up wanting a man like my dad to love me. Right.

And I realized that I was looking for all the wrong. And you found them. Yeah, I found them, but... Right. They weren't capable like he was. It just, I didn't go about it the right way. So I didn't find people that were right for me.

I'm not smashing the people. It's just they weren't right for me. It's the worst. It's the worst feeling to be kind of emotionally hobbled in a particular way. Yeah. Because a lot of times, because I'm the same way,

it wasn't as abusive my background, but if you have that weird, you don't know how to love or be loved because of what you were brought up in, right? Even when you think you got a good one, all of a sudden you're like, it could turn bad. All of a sudden it becomes exactly like the other ones.

Yeah, because consciously, we send our representatives into the relationship, It could turn bad. All of a sudden, it becomes exactly like the other ones. Yeah, because consciously, we send our representatives into the relationship. But subconsciously, we're our real selves. And that real part of you comes out eventually. Right? Exactly. And so you realize, oh, shit. And until you really get the healing, you keep choosing the same kind of person over and over and over and over. Well, I guess that's what I was asking about, vigilance.

I was doing that. And I've worked really hard at it with all the failed relationships that I've had. I've had some good ones along the way, too. But the failed ones that I've had, I've done lots of work around that, trying to figure out why do I keep calling in the same? What do I have to learn here? This goes back to not just staying stuck in that brokenness and being a victim but saying

I play a part in this and I need to understand what that part is or this is going to keep responsibility take responsibility it's going to keep repeating itself

right so right it's like yeah and it's hard because sometimes you get to a point where you're like

I don't want to do it anymore no I'm just tired yeah and you don't think you should have to anymore but the truth is you do have to

until you figure it out really you need the love you do you need all of it and you to anymore, but the truth is you do have to. Oh. Until you figure it out. Really? You need the love? You do. You need all of it. And you got to figure it out for yourself. You do. No, I don't. Yes, you do.

All right. So how's your older sister? Is she all right? She's okay. She struggled. She struggled with alcoholism and her issues. You guys get along all right? We're okay.

Yeah. And your mom, is she around? My mom is around, yes. How's that? That's okay. So you feel, thank God for the therapy. When did you start getting involved with acting? Not until I was probably 19 years old.

Oh, really? Yeah. What were your interests before that? I wanted to be a journalist, a writer. Yeah? Yeah. Did you do that in high school and stuff? Mm-hmm.

Where you wrote for the paper? I was the editor of the paper. Really? Yeah, that's really what I thought I would do. And I wanted to see the world, so I thought I could travel and be a journalist and I could see the world and report and like, you know I was gonna lucky you didn't get into that record. That's a bad thing to be it's hard. It's a hard game now

I know it is. So yeah, you're not mad at how it turned out. No, so you're 19 and what what what what does it? I am living in Chicago. That's where you went to school or That's right. And I went there to model for a little bit. And I met a woman there. Like big time? Is that when you became a big time model? No, I was never big time because I was always too short. So it was just something to do until I decided to go to school. Okay.

I was having a gap year. And I went there and I met a woman who said, you know, you could really do this professionally if you really wanted to do it. But deep down, I knew that that really wasn't what I wanted to do. Yeah, I knew I was too short. It was before Kate Moss.

Like I knew I wasn't going to be very successful at that. But because I was in Chicago all by myself, I went to a class at night. I went to Second City. Oh, really? And I started taking classes. Improv classes? Improv classes. Just to, not because I went to Second City. Oh, really? And I started taking classes there. Improv classes? Improv classes.

Just to, not because I wanted to do anything with it. I thought I needed to meet people in the town. I needed to make some friends. That's what improv's good for. A lot of people go for those kind of reasons now. That's why I went. And are there any people that were there that we know that are like big comics now or big comic actors? You don't remember.

Not in my class okay that you would know so were you funny i think so my my teacher there said you know you really should have you thought about doing this for a living i said oh god no i can't i can't do this for a living is another one of those are you high yeah yeah yeah and he said i really think you should consider this there's something very natural about what you do and your timing is pretty good i think you should consider this who was that teacher you don't remember um yeah jeff benson uh-huh and i said i don't know i finished out the course and after that that stayed in my mind that he thought hmm and i thought i'm only 19 yeah what would be the harm and just seeing and then out of the blue a guy called me up on the phone yeah and, hey, are you Halle Berry?

I said, yeah. He goes, my name is Vincent Cirincione. I represent a girl that you know from your beauty pageant, Sandra Ferguson. I said, yeah. He goes, I'm looking for a black girl on a soap opera and I want someone kind of like her. So she said to give you a call. And then I thought, oh, God, this is a sign. I've got a manager calling me up out of the blue. Right. And the moment I've decided I should give you a call. And then I thought, oh, God, this is a sign. I've got a manager calling me up out of the blue.

Right. And the moment I've decided I should give this a try. Okay. So I flew to New York. He said, come for this audition. I said, on the way. Did you get it? No.

I didn't. So you didn't take that as a sign. No, I didn't take that. But he even said, you've never auditioned. You're a little green. But I also think you've got talent. I think you should consider coming to New York and let me work with you. So I went back home, thought about it for a month.

Back to Chicago. How long did you live in Chicago? Two years. It's a good town, right? It's a good town. Yeah. Yeah. I loved it, actually.

But I went home, and then I came back, and I said, okay, I'll come. Then I moved to New York. And did you start classes? Started classes. What'd you do? Where'd you go? Studied with Esper. Go Esper?

Yes. Everybody studied with Esper. Yes, everybody. And I studied for a good year. And then little by little, I started getting little jobs, little jobs. But it's interesting that that guy, the first guy, the Second City guy, because what he said about you, that you have a naturalism is really true. Yeah. And it's a different thing than most people have, you know, because there are people you can, you know, actors make choices.

I get it. But like with you, like you're emotionally, it's so visceral and so present so immediately. It's just it's a rare thing. And it's very it's human and it sort of stands out in a way for me like i when i when i see you i'm like have an immediate emotional response and then when i see other people i i see the choices they're making ah well i'm gonna take that do you know what i mean yes thank you so so you're doing the meisner yes study meisner um yes and you're you're in it you're going I'm in it I'm in it

and studying and now I'm really wanting to do this I'm really now wanting to do it I believe I can do it I'm enjoying it I'm loving it it's a conscious choice and then I get a job on a television show yeah called living dolls which moves me from New York to LA because it was shot in LA how was that what was that it was horrible It was a sitcom about four girls. And I get on the show and I realize nothing could be worse in the sense that I was happy to have a job. I had never, but I didn't, you know, I was the token black girl. Yeah. I started every scene. Hey everybody. And ended it with, come on, let's go. You know, and I was just, I was bored. Yeah.

And I thought, oh my God, it's got to be more than this. Yeah. This can't be what I've signed up for. Did you do any stage work? No.

Uh-huh. No. Interesting. No. No. Ever? A little bit, you know.

Yeah. A few little small productions, but not real stage work. It's on my bucket list. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. When I'm older.

Yeah. Like you said, in this movie, you use a lot of stage actors. Yes. It's a different game,. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting when I'm older. Yeah. Like you said, in this movie, you use a lot of stage actors. It's a different game, right? Yes. A different game. But at the same time, you know, I wanted actors that were just right for these parts. And it so happened that the actors that I gravitated towards were stage actors. Were they New Yorkers? Most of them from New York? Well, Stephen's worked a lot. No, Sheila's from London. Adrian Lennox. Yes. But what I liked about Oh, right, right, right, right. Adrian Lennox, yes. Yeah.

But what I liked about them, even though they were stage, you know, stage actors are often bigger. Yeah. What I loved about them is they had the ability to take all of that stage, that history, and make it small. Yeah. Like they were able to still make it small and fit their talent into this world. How many kids do you have to look at before you get that kid? Hundreds, probably. Really?

That kid really nailed it. Yeah, he was amazing. Yeah. He was a revelation when he showed up. Really? But it's weird when you see these kid actors, especially at that age, they all know more than they should to begin with.

They all come in geared up and their parents are geared up, right? But he wasn't. That's why I chose him. Oh, yeah oh yeah he wasn't he was such a kid and he had such a wonderful mom that kept him um grounded and centered and he was just a kid he wasn't one of these precocious little kids that you know it's kind of like too much for to be so young yeah he wasn't like that he was just a kid and when i would say cut he wanted to just go jump on the bed and like jump up and down.

Oh, that's fun. And like do what kids do and go grab some candy and like shove it all down his, like he was very childlike. But he really got it. Yeah. Like he, you know,

and he was able to stay. He was very bright. Yeah. He's very bright. Still a child, but he's very bright. So when you were in New York, was it,

was there tough times? I mean, were you like, what were you waiting tables? What was the job? There were tough times. I did tables. I was a bartender before I was 21. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There were some times. There was one little stint where I found myself with no rent money and nowhere to go. And I had to go to the YMCA and be in the shelter for a little bit. Which one? Near Gramercy Park. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

The big one, McBurney's? The big one, yes. Was it over, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Near the park. And that was a rough little patch. Yeah. And then my manager at the time, then he finally let me come sleep on his couch for a while

and yeah I got through it yeah and then the roles started coming and then they started

then I got that television show that I told you about and once I got that then my yeah when did the first movie come that was Spike Lee's

Jungle Fever oh yeah by a drug addict yep I did and Crack Ho to be specific was it crack hoe number one number two number three yeah do you remember working with spike do you remember the excitement

of all i do oh my god yes i remember that spike didn't want me for that no no he said i didn't look like a crack hoe and i said what does a crack hoe look like he said not like you I said I am a crack hoe yeah I am a crack hoe trust me yeah and he goes no no no I want you to play the character of his wife and I said no no no I am the crack hoe let me go in the bathroom wash this makeup off and you'll see I'm a crack hoe so I came back and he let me read it again and he was like shit you are a crack hoe that's great I got the job as the cracko. You didn't want to be the wife. I didn't want to be the wife. I knew that I had to.

Whose wife? It was his wife. Oh. And Veronica Webb got the part and she's beautiful in it. But I, for me, I knew that I needed to shed my physical self and be taken seriously. And I knew that I needed to start taking on parts and fighting to get parts that, you know, relied on my talent, not my physical self, or I would be put in this box forever. You knew right away. I knew right away that I had to dispel that and fight to dispel that.

That's ballsy, to use a word probably not correctly. It's beautiful. Yeah, but you know what I mean? I mean, to make that decision to protect your future. I knew that I had to do that, or I would just be the pretty girl in all the things, and that was the last thing I wanted to be. So when do you feel like, because I mean, you went back and forth, you did a lot of TV, and you did a lot of movies.

What did you feel was the first, the role that you really were like, you know, I really, this is it. This is the role that is going to define me a bit. You know, it's hard to know. I thought Jungle Fever defined me a bit. Yeah. You know, I got to play so opposite what people would typecast me as. So that defined me. That was my first role out.

I did Alex Haley's Queen. I played his paternal grandmother. That kind of defined me in a way as an actor, as a talent, not just what I looked like. Movies like Losing Isaiah also did that for me. Wow. Yeah. I remember that movie. Dorothy Dandridge.

Even though it was about playing a starlet, she was a broken starlet. There were so many layers to her and to her life. She was complicated. Yeah, that Dorothy Dandridge thing i i didn't know much about her yeah you know and it's like it's one of those stories where you know you read the real story and then you see the movie and it's like this doesn't end well yeah no well it couldn't i guess she was wet before her time there was you know hollywood created this starlet but there was no place for her yeah you know, Hollywood created this starlet, but there was no place for her. Yeah. You know, at that time, there was no place. And when you got that role,

what led up to that? How did that happen? My manager, that same guy that's couch, I used to sleep on, he said, what role do you want to play? And I said, Dorothy Dandridge. I mean, she was one of my heroes growing up. Out of nowhere, without a project existing yet?

Yeah, no, we put that together for HBO. We produced it. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I've always had to sort of make my own opportunities, you know? Yeah. And so this was the first time I said, this is what I want to do.

And we put that together. Shonda Rhimes wrote it before Shonda Rhimes was Shonda Rhimes. She wrote it. Uh-huh. And we took it and shopped it to HBO and they picked it up and he and I produced it. Yeah, there's one turn in that where,

you know, like where you see just, because like I always associate you with this kind of rawness, but in that, that's a very composed role, you know, because of her

and her life. And the time period, yeah. Right. But that scene where you said you're not going to perform at Zero's, and then you just turn on that showbiz juice.

I was like, wow, she's really got that in her. Where's more of that? Where's the song and dance alley? It's in there. It's in there. Did you like doing that? I loved it. Yeah.

I loved it, yeah. Why don't you do a musical? Have you done any musical that? I loved it. Yeah. I loved it. Yeah. Why don't you do a musical? Have you done any musicals? I haven't. I haven't. You got to get you, you got to do stage work. You got to do a musical.

Yeah. I'm going to do stage. I, when I'm older, I want to play Mrs. Robinson on stage. Really? Is that in The Graduate? Yeah. Oh, that'd be great. That's my dream stage role.

Well, you can make that happen. You're the producer. So I didn't realize that Monsters Ball was after the Dorothy Dandridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was after. Well, how did that come together, that crazy movie? My agent at the time told me about it. I, of course, loved it. And then the minute they all gave it to me, they said, no, no, just kidding.

That's probably going to ruin your career. Really? That's what they said? Yeah, and I thought, but all gave it to me they said no no just kidding that's probably going to ruin your career really and i thought that's what they said yeah and i thought but i love it but why and they thought well it's you know it's so it's racially charged you know what it was about yeah that was 20 years ago yeah and there's this love there's this it's it's nudity it's gratuitous they felt and they thought this is just not where you should be after Dorothy. Isn't that interesting? Because they were afraid of doing what you like to do, which is expose that raw vulnerability. Take the risks. Yeah, take risks. Yeah, I've always known if you don't risk big, you're never going to win big. And yes, you knew it would make people uncomfortable.

Yes. And it made me uncomfortable, which is why I wanted to do it. I like to sit in that uncomfortable. How could it not make you uncomfortable? Yeah. And it's to do it. I like to sit in that uncomfortable. How could it not make you uncomfortable? Yeah. And it's like I'm a moth to a flame that way. I love to sit in that.

I just love to sit in it and challenge myself and challenge the others and see what's going to happen. Yeah. What's going to happen? It's nice that there's a healthy context to do that.

Yes, yes. And this is it. Right. You know? Well, that explains it. It's a healthier way to, healthy context to do that. Yes. Yes, and this is it right, you know Well that's that explains your way. Yeah, you know, yeah deal with these demons keep it in the fictional zone Yeah, yes. Yes, and like Billy Bob was like, you know out there like that must be like, you know The level of commitment both he had to yeah kind of pull off for that. Yeah, and we were committed we were both Extremely committed but in between takes was it sort of like, how you doing? Yeah.

Well, we had talks about, you know, how far we would go and what we would do. Like, we were very comfortable. We had to be, had agreements. Yeah. About certain things, you know. Sure. So it was a safe set. Yes.

And Bullworth was before that. My producer said he just re-watched Bullworth. And he said, like, it definitely like holds up i think warren he was you know when you think of what happened in the world since then i think he was ahead of the curve on that one he's interesting man i don't i've never talked to him warren yeah i've talked to him at benning yeah and i've met warren a couple times but I can't seem to get him Like to do an interview with me But that guy knows it all

But the weird thing about him He knows where all the bodies are He's so, so smart Yeah, he's, yeah Yeah, but like he plays As sort of almost a doofus sometimes Yeah, yeah Like, you know, he's got this weird way about him

Where you wouldn't know Just how smart he is How political he he is, and all this other stuff. Did you get to hang out with him a lot? Yes. I love him dearly. Yeah? Always be a friend. Yes.

Yes. Yes. He's a good guy. He's been always supportive in my corner. Great person to talk to. Yeah? Whenever I want to know anything, call Warren. He knows.

Oh, really? And he does. And you do it? Yeah. You guys are still... Yes. Okay. Talk to me about superheroes do you like okay outside of the cat woman debacle which i think you handled well and you've discussed it yes what do you think what happened there it didn't work but it wasn't on

you no but but here's the thing though i have unfairly i believe carried it as if somehow i directed it i wrote it i produced it and i starred in it you know what i mean i worked hard at doing my part as the actor to become a cat and do what i had to do but i also believe that you know because it was a woman for a superhero yeah that by making the storyline by making cat woman in that version just a woman that was saving women from having their faces crack off it she wasn't saving the world like superheroes do right the story was small small and and didn't transcend like all the superheroes do and i thought that was a big part of it but back then the idea was but if you're making a woman

movie about a superhero woman, then it has to deal with women's issues. Like, it wasn't possible for a woman to save the world. The thinking wasn't there at that time. Right, okay. I think that's what happened with that. And in these other superhero movies, X-Men and those movies,

do you like doing them? Are they fun? They are fun. You know, it's a good, those movies? Do you like doing them? Are they fun? They are fun.

You know, it's a good, um, you know, it's, it's a, it's a nice break from, you know, the other things that I really like to do.

And it's physical. It's physical. And I love physical. I love you. Like I did John Wick before I did this and it was just a great physical movie where I got to just, you know, use that part of what I do.

I was a gymnast as a kid, so I get to use all of that. You were? It what I do. I was a gymnast as a kid, so I get to use all of that still in my body. Yeah. It's still there, the muscle memory? All of that. I love it. You can like, can you do those flips? I can do some flips. Yeah. What are they called where you just keep bouncing? Yep. Back handsprings? Yes, I can. And what else? Can you do parallel bars or not parallel bars? I don't know because I haven't been on any in a long time. I can't do that in my backyard, but I can flip in my backyard. You can do cartwheels and flips

you can do? Yes. So how's that Keanu guy? Great. Yeah? Yeah, he really is. What a mystery that dude is. Yeah, he is a mystery.

He is. And he'll forever be that, I'm sure. Two major Matrix franchise, now this John Wick thing just keeps churning him out. Yeah. Billions of dollars

billions no one knows what the fuck's up with that guy he's a good guy though no he seems like a good guy but it's like

it's one of those things where I'm sure you've worked with a lot of people where you're like what's the magic yeah some people

they're just magic I don't know what that is I'm not one of those people no no I think you are that's never been my story so i don't know but see there's people i've had to work very very hard well but but the thing is is that you can't help but be yourself true right true so all that talent and all that stuff that's in you is going to be there you're not hiding it no the magic people that you're always like the

fuck is up with them? You know? I can't hide anything. Neither. I'm not interested in hiding. Yeah, you know, the only bad thing about not hiding is like more people than you might want to know about you know about you. Yeah. Yeah.

But that's okay. Yeah, no, it's okay. But like then there's a familiarity that people think they know you. And a lot of times you're like, you do kind of know me, but I don't know you. That's the thing. You don't know them, but they do know you. Exactly.

They do know you. And it's a little weird. And now with like all these social media platforms, there's very few people, if they want to get to you, they will get to you. Are you on social media? I am. Are you? Yeah.

I should follow you. I'll follow you. Yeah, I was on, I did. Are you? Yeah. I should follow you. I'll follow you. Yeah, I was on, I did a live Instagram this morning. Oh, you did? Of me doing the, I have Jennifer Hudson on the podcast tomorrow that we're releasing. So usually I play guitar at the end, just dick around on my guitar. But like I'll sit here and I'll do a live

one of me playing and talking to people. And I've gotten very snippy at them. I only get a few hundred people watching, but over time a few thousand people look at it. But I'll do like an hour and talking to people. And I've gotten very snippy at them. I only get a few hundred people watching, but over time, a few thousand people look at it. But I'll do like an hour and a half sometimes to sit there and like yell at people when they're trolling me. What are you doing?

Like I'll look at the comments. I don't get into the fights with the people. I refuse to. What do you do on yours? With the fans? With the social media, what do you do? I do all kinds of things. I do Instagram, Twitter. Yeah, do you do TikTok?? With the fans? With the social media. What do you do? I do all kinds of things. I do Instagram, Twitter.

Yeah. Do you do TikTok? I really like my Twitter. I haven't done the TikToks. Me neither. I don't understand it. I'm not. My daughter, my 13-year-old keeps saying, Mommy, please do it.

Please, let's do TikToks. Let's do TikToks. We should do them together because I don't like doing, well, maybe doing with her. Well, but I don't want her on the internet. Oh, oh. I fought to keep my kids out of that oh has that worked it has oh that's good yeah yeah tick tock i there's certain things i have to hold fast and say like i'm too old for that and i'm gonna that's i'm fine with that i'm just i don't need

to do it i don't even want to be on twitter you know you're not on twitter i am but nothing comes good from it nothing good comes from it Well, it's not the real world. It's Twitter world. Yeah. It's not. The real world is like, it's very kind of slow and, you know, like paced well. But, you know, as soon as you open your phone up, it's like. Yeah.

Yeah. It's terrible. Yeah. And where do you think it's going? Where do you think? No place good. Really? Well, I don't know.

Where do you know place good? Well, I don't know. Where do you think I mean I think my concern is is that The world your reality gets more and more sort of compromised by people engaging with social media and using and playing Seeing it as some sort of video game like, you know, I the thing I've noticed is that my life is relatively small It's kind of slow and it's okay but you know you get addicted to the pace of engaging you know on social media or on your phone and stuff but like you said and other people have said it's not really reality but eventually it starts to define reality right and what what reality is is sort of sad and lonely and isolated and weird right yeah becomes an oddly not enough what's that dopamine trip, man.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I worry about that for my daughter, for the kids, you know? Yeah. How many you got? We didn't grow up in this world,

so we can kind of see the difference. This has kind of been her world. She's 13. How many you have? Two. How about the other one? Eight. Wow.

Yeah. So, yeah, you got to manage that. And it's hard. Yeah. But they also have to be of that. And it's hard. Yeah. But they also have to be of their generation too and of their time. You know, I can't turn them into dinosaurs where I don't allow them to partake. Lock them up. Yeah.

Give me that phone. Yeah. You know, so it's. I can't imagine. It's scary. Yeah. It's got to be. And also just scary.

Like how, how do you like, like I don't have kids have kids and and and oddly it's one of the greatest things i've never i've never felt better about a decision that's real yeah that's really real because i just knew i was too panicky too you know aggravated too impatient too selfish to do it i've been married twice really got no kids but you know what? Bravo. You knew that about yourself. Yeah. Then bring a kid here and just really fuck them up and give them a shitload of problems to have to go deal with. I'm not going to do it. You know? I really, really respect that.

But you overcome a lot of problems. What made you want to have kids? Who's to say what makes people want to have children? No, I get it. But do you feel- I just knew I was meant to be a mother. Oh, okay. I just, who's to say what makes people want to have children? No, I get it. No, you're not. I just knew I was meant to be a mother. Oh, okay.

I just knew it. And do you feel like, you know, in parenting, you're able to sort of like go like, all right, like you stop yourself sometimes and like there's that, you know, that part of your brain. Yeah. I find myself being my mother or doing something dysfunctional. And what I've learned to do, though, is one be go easy on myself when it's happening but then also in that moment be able to go to my kid and say yeah i'm really sorry let me have a redo yeah let's talk about this another way when i fall into some behavior that i'm hardwired to do yeah that as we said you have to work on your whole life it doesn't magically go away right

but at least i'm aware of it and i can go to them and say I didn't handle that right let's let me walk out and let me walk back in and let's do it and like my kids find it funny now but they appreciate that I'm you know apologizing and kids always love when as a parent when you say you're sorry that you screwed up yeah but they're also patient with me they know that I'm trying to get it right yeah yeah you yeah, yeah. You know? That's a funny one. In those moments where they become the parent of us. I know. I know. I know.

It's true. That's okay. It's true. So what are you doing now? Just running around promoting this movie? Or are you working on something? I am not working on anything right now. Is that good?

That's really good. Yeah. I feel like I'm taking a little break i have another movie coming out ironically in february so i'll be on this again um and then i'm gonna go away and work really spring yeah like a big movie yeah we can't talk about yeah it's with mark walberg we're gonna go do a uh sort of an action comedy together oh Oh, really? Yeah. Pete Berg movie? No. No.

Who's directing it? Not on a set yet. Oh, okay. Well, he's a hard worker. He is. And he can be a very funny guy. He's very funny. And in this role,

he's going to be very, very funny. I had a little part in that movie, Spencer Confidential, for Netflix. Yeah. But he is a funny guy. Yeah. And he's a good actor. Yes.

He's very consistent. Yes. Yes. Steady. Yes. Yes. Well, this has been great. but he is a funny guy and he's a good actor he's very consistent steady well this has been great I'm so glad we talked do you feel good about it? I do you're not going to play the guitar? you just told me that's what you do

I do but it'd be weird and make me all vulnerable we've just talked about that maybe off the mics. Well, that's not the way it goes. You said you play for people. Maybe the next time we hang out. I play for people on my phone.

This sucks. I don't play for people in real life. I mean, I drove all the way out here to your house. You want me to serenade you? I just play like, you know, kind of dirty... Just play me a little something. Dirty blues licks.

That's fine. Just come on. Come on. Thank you. Yes. Yes. All right. You got like six of them over there.

I know, I know. It's going to get loud. Let's see. Wow. Nice. You've been playing your whole life? A long time. Really? Self-taught? No, I took lessons when I was a kid. And then people have taught me things here and there. Nice.

That made me very nervous. You put me on the spot. Nice. I think I did okay. You did great. It took me a second. But yeah, I'll tell you next time me on the spot. Nice. I think I did okay. You did great. Yeah, it took me a second. But yeah, I'll tell you next time I'll prepare something. Okay.

Nice talking to you. Thank you. You too. Great. Great to meet her. Great to be with her. Great to talk to her. And I enjoyed the movie Bruised, which is on Netflix now.

She directed it, starred in it. We just talked about it. Also, shows were added for the This May Be the Last Time tour. In San Francisco at the Palace of Fine Arts, January 29th, there's a second show added. And in San Diego at the Observatory North Park, a late show has been added on February 11th. Tickets are on sale. Now, for all of them at WTFpod.com slash tour.

All of them. Lots of different dates. Go look if I'm coming near you. Here's some wah-wah. Wah-wah. Wah-wah. Wah-wah.ああああああme ああああああ ああああああ ああああああ

ああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああああいmeme me me me me me me me Thank you. Boomer lives.

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