WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1292 - Rory Cochrane

Episode Date: December 30, 2021

When Rory Cochrane started acting, he knew he didn't want to be a movie star. He wanted to be a freight train that keeps on moving. Rory tells Marc about the practices and measures he put in place to attain his goal of career longevity and artistic satisfaction. They also talk about why it's important for him to work on productions where the crew is treated well, why he asked to leave CSI: Miami when it was still the biggest show on TV, and what led to some of his pivotal career moments in movies like Dazed and Confused, Black Mass, and Argo. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die.

We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fuckineers? What the fuck cats?

How's it going? Seriously, how are you? Closing out this year, looking back at it, and what, looking forward to the new one with hope and an open mind are we so happy new year today on the show i talked to rory cochran i'll tell you the main reason i i wanted to talk to rory cochran it's really oddly it's because of one performance and it's in a movie that a lot of people, I don't know if they'd seen. It's the Black Mass movie with Johnny Depp as Whitey Bulger.

Jesse Plemons is in it. And Roy Cochran plays a real guy who is one of Bulger's henchmen, a gangster, a killer. And I'd never seen a performance in my life. And this is just because i've looked in the eyes of killers before i know it sounds odd have i you know i'm not talking about an aa meeting talking to a vet or something i've in new york there was a couple of times where i've i've met or spent time with gangsters it's something that happens in show business occasionally you find yourself in a room with a gangster or a killer who kills for gangsters or is a gangster killer it just happens

it's the way it is that show business they've always been around show business and there's something about the look in their eye and the sort of matter of factness of it all that you know in your heart that they have done this thing but it is what it is right and so so many times even in the best mob movies uh that people love godfather scorsese movies there's something not quite authentic about the nature of a killer in some of those movies uh you know movie stars don't always get it right right i mean de niro has gotten a killer right before but there is something slightly elevated about the myth of the gangster but somehow or another rory cochran in that movie black mass in particular i'd never seen a performance like that to be honest with you and it was hard because you know he's working with you know this insanely made up

johnny depp who was wearing you know this the makeup was it was nuts it was almost otherworldly and it was supposed to be a regular person. Whatever the case was, there's a scene there. There's a fucking scene in there with Rory's prostitute girlfriend and Depp. It's pretty grim, but there was just something about, there are these interview segments in that movie where they have interrogations of these characters. And I'd just never seen something so natural and so fucking real in the nature of that character. So that's really the reason I

want to talk to him. He's been in a lot of stuff. Him and Plemons know each other real well from Scott Cooper movies. That was Black Mass. Also Hostiles with, I don't think Plemons was in, I can't remember, but with Christian Bale. But you might know him from Dazed and Confused, from way back, Argo, Public Enemies. He was on CSI Miami for four seasons. He's in the new movie Encounter with Rez Ahmed and Octavia Spencer. But it was great meeting him. It was intense. I don't know, man.

I'm just, I guess I'm at a crossroads with myself. As we head into this new year, I've been wrestling with things in terms of acceptance. Whatever's going on in the world. I'm happy it's raining here in Los Angeles. Has been for the last week or so, on and off. But apparently the amount of rain

and how it comes down is something unique to this time we live in as the climate becomes chaotic but i've just been thinking about i had a weird conversation last night in the you know in the in the green room of the comedy store with some young comics talking about a guy a a middleman, somebody who will facilitate. If you want clips put up on social media platforms to become viral through a Facebook page where you can get a million views and you can make like 15, 20 grand a month just through views, through ad buys. There's this whole world of new show business that sort of barters in short clips and people are making a lot of money. And I just listening to this and I'm hearing young comics go, oh man, give me his name for sure. And

I'm like, I'm done, man. I'm past that. I don't care. Like I was always wondering like how some of these people get 300,000 fucking likes. And it's because they have people working this angle of new platform-oriented show business to sell tickets, but also to make money in their own right by numbers. And I get it, but I don't do it. I'm old school, and there's no reason for me to do it. I don't mind being on the other side of this shit.

What I've realized lately is that I've got this small window right now to be grateful for what I've made, what I've done, you know, to appreciate. And I'm just bringing this up again, the stuff that I've accomplished. And I'm okay right now. do i as the world fucking diminishes as the earth dies and people become worse you know how do i find a pocket to at least at the very least look at what i've done and whatever fight that i have fought for whatever i've done it for entertainment the people the fans whoever how do i pull back far enough to say like all right right, so I'm okay. Somehow I made it through. I'm okay. And I don't have to fucking worry about this shit. I don't have to worry about a two minute clip getting a million views for what I got my people. Hopefully I'll be able to do this tour. I have planned. Maybe I'll shoot another special, but it's weird

because I know like even last night that the comedy i'm doing now is great it's the best i've done and i know that to be true and i do it for a few hundred people here and there now with this it's just odd now too with this doing these 15 minute sets in the main room of the comedy store with uh you know omicron out there it's just that i'm on stage you know i'm boosted i test frequently but like if i do a, you know, I'm bathing in what's got to be a COVID mist up there on stage from laughing people. You got to figure there's at least a dozen in every 100 to 200 people who have it. So why am I doing that? Well, because I don't want to live in fear, I guess.

And I like what I'm doing right now comedically. I don't want to live in fear, I guess. And I like what I'm doing right now comedically. I don't know. I'm just trying as we enter this new year, that is no doubt going to be another difficult year for a number of reasons. It's very hard to have illusions of things sort of like getting better or things starting fresh. So I try to enter it with a practical mindset, a rational mindset, and kind of put the focus on what I can do and how am I going to see myself. You never know when the fucking other shoe is going to drop. Trouble, sickness, whatever. All I know is the last week or so during this time of holidays when I celebrated zero,

no celebrating. And there were days where I had nothing to do and it was fucking glorious. I mean, I felt that during the pandemic too, but then no one was doing anything. And I felt it again, like, you know, I don't mind knowing tomorrow is empty and I don't have to be full of dread about getting somewhere, doing something or talking to somebody or fixing this or that or fucking, you know, taking care of something. It's just I've no problem with nothing to do because I fucking make myself busy, man. I do the work. I enjoy things. But I guess at the very least, as you enter this new year, try to find some gratitude. And again, try to be decent to people.

So, listen. Happy New Year. Please be careful. I imagine parties are limited. try not to get the covet if you do ride it out don't freak out go to the hospital if you have to but uh i sought out rory cochran and he was nice enough to come over and we uh we hashed it out a little bit his new movie encounter is now streaming on Amazon Prime Video. It's an alien bacteria movie. Alien organisms

that come on like a sickness. This is me talking to Rory Cox. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel

by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. I noticed that you don't do much of this because there's no information on you. Oh, good. Somehow or another, you've managed to remain anonymous somehow. Do you put effort into that? I guess you could call it effort.

It's more of like a protective measure for me. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think that as actors, we're always lucky to work. Right. You know, SAG's like 1% of union members work ever. Is that true? Yeah. So, yeah, it's kind of depressing.

But my idea or my game plan is that if you don't do everything that's put in front of you, then you can have longevity. Oh, okay. And so, yeah, sometimes people get pissed off if you pass on something. Yeah, yeah. But they're not living your life or in your shoes. Right. So hopefully they'll get over it. Yeah.

But, yeah, I try to do – I just try to work with good people if I can. I've never turned down an opportunity with a good group. But how does that play into staying sort of under the radar in terms of public knowledge of you? You just don't do stuff. You don't like to. Well, I mean, I don't think it's important for for me i think there's far too many uh people uh you know out there giving their opinion on on you know there's

too many opinions out there yeah yeah and they don't nobody you know there's enough right you know there's some people that get into it because they want to be like a movie star. Right. Or they want to be famous. Right. I don't want those things. I like opportunities.

Yeah, right, right, right. That makes sense. That some of those people have. Right. But that was never a goal of mine. Right. So why would I want to kind of embrace that if I'm not getting the money these guys are getting? And you know what I mean?

It's like that seems like the worst part of it. Right, right. You know, I was thinking about that. As an actor, you need to have organic experiences with people who don't know who you are. Right. Who don't, you know, have prejudged you or what have you in life, you mean in life. And those can be good or bad experiences, but you need them to to kind of be human and to be a real existence, you don't go to the grocery store. You have assistants and they hold the umbrellas for you. That's not-

You don't have an umbrella holder? No. I wish I get one. At the very least, I think you should have an umbrella holder. And then you could- Maybe you could portray an umbrella holder and then you could uh maybe you could portray an umbrella holder yeah well I mean when did you like because the the reason I was excited to talk to you and and because I'm a big fan of your work and the work I've seen of it uh of yours and in

a way that I think I think addresses what you're talking about you you know when I saw Black Mass specifically and I like Cooper I think he's a good director. Yeah, me too. That, you know, having been in comedy a while and having been, having met a couple of real gangsters, the portrayal of real gangsters or of gangsters in general is always sort of heightened. And you don't necessarily believe that they're killers, you know, because a lot of those guys are just people. And I felt that the way that you did it or embodied that guy and just the look in your eye and the sense of I don't know, it was a very subtle, almost, you know, sympathetic performance of that guy. But, you know, I knew he was a killer. But you didn't play him as a killer in a way.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that people wake up in the morning and I'm a killer. I'm going to walk around like I'm a killer. I mean, they have feelings and they're human beings. Maybe bad human beings.

Sure. They have families and they have problems. It's just their job. It's just their job. And funnily enough, I was in Boston and I had, the Boston accent is very, very difficult to do. I mean, for me, I've done a bunch of different accents. It's the worst because you could easily make a mockery of it. You could. And also there's different variants of different accents. It's the worst because you could easily make a mockery of it. You could.

And also there's different variants of the accent. Sure. Some people don't have that R that goes up. Right. They just have a regular R. It's regional. There's North End accents. What did you go with?

I just went with God. No, I would just say I had a dialect coach, and that's not the way that I can work, really. Like, I got to talk. So I found some guys in Boston. We hung out. From where? Which part?

I was there for years, Boston. Southie. Oh, yeah, okay. And I knew these guys. Yeah. From how? One was a, used to, there was a boxing gym here called Wild Card. Uh-huh.

And Freddie Roach used to run it. And there was a guy in there named Tommy Barrett. Yeah. Who was a boxing coach. And I was literally like in bars in Boston telling like old men that I'd buy them a beer if they would just talk to me. And I was in this bar in Southie. They like to talk, don't they? Yeah.

Well, I mean, if you buy them a beer, they'll talk to you. Yeah. And I saw Tommy Barrett sitting in this bar called Whitey's, ironically, in Southie. And he was just like, I got you. Don't worry. Uh-huh. Yeah. was just like, you know, I got you, don't worry. Uh-huh. Yeah. So he set you up with guys?

Yeah, and we just, you know, he was dialed into that Southie kind of. And the guy you portrayed, the real guy? Yeah. Yeah. Steve Flemmy, they called him the Rifleman. Yeah. Because he shot a bunch of people in the Korean War. Uh-huh. It was very accurate. Uh-huh.

And that's how he got that nickname, not because he was a so-called killer. Right. From a war experience. Yeah. Now, when you go into a role like that with Scott, you know, and you're working with Depp, and I just had Plemons in here, you know. I love Jesse. Yeah, yeah, he's great.

And I was talking about you. I'm like, you guys are great. And he's telling me how like, he says, you don't like to talk like on camera. Like you'd rather just act. Like, you know, as little lines as possible. I'm like, well, I'm supposed to interview him. Is that going to be?

Well, yeah. Well, he's right about that. But sometimes things are overwritten. writers are right but people don't talk potentially exactly yeah yeah and it's not a no offense to the writer sometimes it's just um you know you want to try to you know find a way to portray somebody that's not giving a monologue or something like that because they wouldn't do that right it happens all the time we were just talking outside you're not going to give me a dive tribe of stuff you know just what talked about the car right that's what that's what people do but back to your your point earlier. So I got to meet the real Johnny Moderano. Now this guy went to prison.

The guy you portrayed? No, another guy. That was another guy. Yeah. Real character. The other gangster. Was he in the movie? Is he portrayed in the movie?

I remember. He looks more Italian looking guy. Yeah. So he was really the hit the hit man for for uh whitey for whitey and those guys and um anyway i got to meet him on my own just sort of through connections i made there's a place called um daisies daisy buchanan's yeah and uh that's where all the Red Sox players, the Yankees players would even go after their games at Fenway. And Joe, who was the owner of that place,

at the time it's closed now. Yeah. But he knew Matarano, and I got to meet him a couple times, and he told me, I mean, this guy's killed like 100 people. Was he in prison? He did 12 years and i think it wasn't even for all the yeah you know it was just uh a plea yeah and um anyway he told me he said yeah it's like you know we're we're hanging out we're go chase girls together

we're gonna go do this here we're gonna go kill guys together. It's just a thing that they, you know, it wasn't as, they didn't think of it. Wasn't their whole life. Yeah. It was just part of their life. It was part of it. It was, you know, his living. Yeah, and sometimes they knew the guys they were killing.

I'm sure they did. Yeah. Yeah. So, and how did you integrate that? I mean, what I was gonna ask you before was, you know, when you read the script or when Scott reached out to you to do the film, you know, what kind of information were you given? Like, what was the kernel of that guy that you were like, this guy, I got the key to this guy? You know, I read his book.

I did research. I met his. What do you mean? Wrote a book? Or they wrote a book on book. I did research. I met his son. Flemmy wrote a book? Or they wrote a book on him. Oh, okay. Yeah. I met his son. Oh, really?

In Boston, randomly. Yeah. Randomly? Yeah. How did that happen? Playing pool. And he was a great, great guy, Stephen. Yeah.

And I just sort of try to put pieces together yeah i ended up meeting a go-go an older go-go dancer that used to hang out with steve fleming and she would tell me stories dead uh he's in prison oh right uh i'm not quite sure right i think he's still you didn't try to reach out to him um at that point we had already when i had met his son his son offered to to to drive up nobody knows where this guy is apparently but of course his son does yeah sure so some was like we could drive up there it's like five six hours yeah uh at that point like three quarters of the movie was over. Right. So I thought there was very little I could. Yeah.

I wonder. But he would tell me stuff like my dad, you know, smoked cigars. He didn't smoke cigarettes. He did this. Yeah, yeah. You know, he wasn't this. How did, did you get feedback from him after the movie? The son?

Did you, did anyone? Yeah, I believe they all liked it. Oh, they did? Yeah. That's tricky, right? It is tricky. And you're not, you know, you're not searching for liked it. Oh, they did? Yeah. That's tricky, right? It is tricky. And you're not searching for the feedback. No, of course not.

But when you play, like I just played Jerry Wexler in the Aretha Franklin movie. Nice. And because you do that kind of research where you try to get into the guy and figure out how he talked and what he did and what drove him. And then you do it. and figure out how he talked and what he'd do and what drove him. And then, you know, you do it. And, you know, when somebody who knew him says, good job, it means something.

Yeah. No, I mean, it's flattering. Yeah. And, yeah, I got a lot of positive, I guess, compliments from that. I thought it was amazing. And I don't, like, so we're, if it was never to be, like, when did, like, obviously, you know, you work pretty regularly. You know, I see you in a lot of stuff. And I just, I watched part of the new movie. I'm glad I didn't watch all of it.

I got the link a little late, but I'm bad at talking about movies I've seen that you're promoting because I'm bad with spoilers. But I know that there's a parasite problem and that there's aliens. And I'm assuming that somebody saves the world, but I don't know. Mark, I don't know either. I'm actually going to see it on the second. So the premiere? What is that, Thursday? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I don't know. Well, we'll both find out, I guess, eventually. I can tell you what I do know is that the director did a movie called Beast, which was his first movie, and it was terrific. Oh, wait a minute. Beast? Yeah, just Beast. Huh. What was that about?

I feel like I might have seen that. I did see that. That's kind of a gnarly movie. Yeah, I thought it was excellent. And, you know, when they brought me this thing, they told me Riz Ahmed and Octavia Spencer. Yeah, it looks good. It's got a good look. I thought, yeah, I'm in. Sure. So if the agenda was not really to become a movie star like when you start because i remember you know you when you were a kid how did it start what was the one did the drive start would you to be an actor um it was it was more or less uh i guess i fell into it a little bit

uh there was we grew up in uh jamaica queens in New York. I know that part, yeah. How many in the family? At that point, it was my brother and my sister and my mother. Yeah. And we were living in this crummy one-bedroom apartment. Yeah. And the idea was, like my local school, I remember being in third grade, and they shot, some sixth grader shot another sixth grader in the head. head and I was like I kind of don't want to go to that school anymore so I I just kept going further and further away from

my school from where I lived yeah and because obviously your your your mom agreed with you maybe you shouldn't go to that school. I don't remember the conversation, but I just remember going one subway stop and then going three subway stops for junior high school. And then my zoned high school was Hillcrest, which was a very dangerous school. So there was this school called the performing arts in new york new york city yeah and so my brother had uh you have to audition yeah and so

they have five departments and uh he got was going for art yeah and my sister was going for voice yeah and i thought well i don't want to miss out on this. So they were all in the arts, huh? So I went for drama and art. I ended up getting in for both. What kind of art, painting? Yeah, just all around. And my brother was always complaining about the art department, so I was like,

let me try this drama thing. And I was god awful, by the way. I mean, just. How did it start? Just, you have to audition. Well, do you remember what you did? I did a monologue or two. They were just terrible.

But I was always never good at auditioning. But anyway, they took pity on me, let me in, and that was that. That was that? sent me in, and then that was that. That was that? And then, so going into it primarily to escape. Escape. Yeah.

Escape. And I guess at a relatively young age, you realize that life is pretty fragile, and things are dangerous. And you sought this sort of other world other world now not really knowing whether or not that was a world you necessarily wanted to be part of when you got there what changed for you in terms of like did you were you like in awe of people doing that stuff i mean it's a whole different world yeah i wasn't, I wasn't in awe of that. I mean, it was all kind of silly. Yeah.

And, you know, they're doing these exercise, sense memory exercises, just stupid things. And you went there for all of high school. I did. Yeah. And then they sort of had this policy where you couldn't audition professionally if you were in school as a public

high school but again uh you had to there was thousands of kids that wanted to go yeah yeah they would accept maybe two three hundred yeah um but so one day a friend of mine was like hey i'm gonna go on this audition after school uh we can get a slice of pizza afterwards and i was like well we're not supposed to do that and he said yeah it doesn't matter so i go with him and the casting director was like hey uh are you gonna read too and i said no i'm just here with my friend she was like well we're seeing a lot of people yeah maybe you should read yeah and i was like and she's like well just take a look yeah so i i eh. And she was like, well, just take a look. Yeah. So I read for that. She's like, I got good news and bad news.

The bad news is I'm not bringing your friend back. Good news, I'm bringing you back. Yeah. I ended up getting that thing. What was that? It was a show called Saturday Night with Connie Chung. Do you remember her? Yeah.

And so they did this docudrama. Right. About, so Marlon Brando was in half the episode and then i'm in half the episode marlon brando yeah it's kind of cool did you meet him i didn't meet him he just he had done an interview with her and then half of it was me playing this crack dealer in brooklyn huh and and uh so that was your was your, your first gig was like a reenactment? Yes. Is that? Well, yeah, sort of, yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. How long did that show stay on the air? I don't remember that. I don't know. So it was like Marlon Brando, now we're going to take you to a crack corner. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you, was there a story? Was there, you didn was there you didn't you didn't know you just i mean it was a story is based on a real kid that was a like a 14 year old crack deal what did marlon brando would have to do with it he was just doing an interview oh just so he was just another part of the show yeah did you watch that part i don't know uh i don't know if i watched the whole thing. I think they might have sent me a tape. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that kind of got you rolling? In a way, yeah. Was it interesting to you? Sure. Yeah. I mean, it was something I could do in my sleep. Yeah. Play a drug dealer because there were so many of them in the neighborhood.

You knew of them. You knew them. knew of them you knew them yeah so then after that did you get in trouble at school no for doing it no no no no it did so the policy doesn't hold no and you were what a sophomore freshman i was a junior yeah and then does that does it start rolling from there did you start going on more auditions with that particular casting director you don't know how uh went? No, I went on another thing and I got that and that was like to play a transvestite in this movie, Matt Dillon and it was a little tiny part

and that was a whole other thing. That was a sort of lesson in the industry of how people, there was an actress and she wasn't going to do this thing unless her brother got a part. What was this? The director's like, I don't know where to put this fucking guy. He's going to be your brother. And they do this whole scene.

I'm supposed to have one line. Yeah. And we turn into this whole long scene because this guy's forced to be in the movie so we shoot this thing wow that was part of the negotiation he never used the thing because it was just to to satisfy her oh i got your brother in the movie right and he cut everything you just cut that out i'm at you i think my line's still in there i I don't know. I mean, I didn't, you know. I knew this wasn't the one. So this was a kiss before dying.

Yes. Oh, yeah. So do you sometimes not read the whole script? Yes. Yeah. What does it depend on? It depends on, I guess, how heavy I am in the script. Right.

And, um, I mean, I don't, I don't believe you, you have to, it's not necessarily out of laziness. No. It's just that you don't need to know what. Happens after. Right. Yeah. You don't need to know what these people are doing, um, unless it affects you or they're,

they're talking about you in some way that shapes your character sure uh for the most part you know it's almost better if you don't know sure no i i think i agree with that now since now did your brother and sister stay in the arts no no they didn't well actually my brother kind of did um he i think he has like a production company oh yeah work and he's kind of do yeah i would say yes my sister's uh lawyer uh-huh and did you was there was because like you know when i talk to people who are you know in the arts and stuff did you get support at home did you come from arty people? No. No. No.

I got thrown out of the house. Oh, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't go to college. Oh, okay. So after the kiss before dying, when do you, because I remember you in Dazed and Confused. and you know what it's interesting when you see how you've turned out as a grown-up that a lot of the the roles you take now and and you know are weighty they're you know they're heavy you know you bring a lot to it and that character was kind of this uh you know like uh i mean obviously you're a kid but that seemed was that the big break um That was, yeah, I guess you would call it that, where you sort of enter into the zeitgeist a little bit.

Yeah, and how did that, well, what was Fathers and Sons? I can't remember if I've seen that. That was, I consider that sort of my first movie. That was Jeff Goldblum. Oh, yeah. And I played a son. I was thrilled to get that part. Yeah.

You know, we shot it in New Jersey. Jersey. In Asbury Park. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I love Jeff Goldblum from The Fly. Yeah, that's right. He's a great actor.

Very quirky, interesting actor, I think. So I did that, but it didn't really go anywhere. You played his son? Yes. Are you out of school? Yes. Do you still use some of the stuff that you learned when you were a kid in putting your shit together now? Not from school, necessarily.

But maybe from just growing up. And did you come away from that experience at that high school with some craft in place? Yeah, I don't want to downplay the intentions that that school has. And a lot of people came out of that school and did very well. You have basic sort of things that you pick up, sure, especially after four years. But it was a good place, especially for some you know, some people that had sort of, you know, challenging home lives. Uh-huh. And, yeah, I mean, I think. You felt that that was a common thing?

There were a lot of kids in that school where, you know, it was a good thing that they were there. Right. Right. You could very easily go into a different direction i mean even in that school they had kids you know some kid asked me to sell crack yeah you know for him right showing me guns i'm like wow what what what department are you in the crack department yeah and now so then i have to assume that when you get an opportunity to work with Goldblum, that, you know, you're picking stuff up, you know, engaging with these other, you know.

He's kind of an interesting actor. I mean, did you find you were absorbing stuff? Not really. I mean, you learn from things. I remember we were doing a scene at the end and i was ready to go and they broke for lunch yeah and then we had lunch and then after the lunch i just didn't have the same yeah you know feelings that i had when i was starving and so it was bad you know it wasn't good but it's those kind of things you pick up oh we're gonna do an emotional scene i'll eat afterwards oh yeah right so that was the lesson you couldn. You couldn't fake it.

Yeah. Yeah. So you were able to look at the post-lunch scene in the movie and go like, meh. Yeah. It's full of food. But you know that. Sure, yeah.

As an actor, you see it, you go, maybe nobody will pick it up, but you know. You know. Of course, you know everything. You know, like, why didn't I wait one second before I said that? Yeah. Are you able to watch your shit uh i mean i do i i watch it because i i try to you know learn yeah or is there something i could have done better yeah yeah um but i don't watch a

lot i don't uh yeah watch the movies again because i feel like you got to just keep moving forward I get that so well how does dazed and confused happen so I am in LA yeah and for what the other movie or what from oh I'm just out here I oh you moved I moved out I'm working at Jerry's deli out in the valley in the valley yeah I think they closed it I think so too um yeah and how old were you when you moved out here 19 uh-huh and you didn't uh no you had representation i guess uh yeah sort of yeah probably wasn't the strongest but you know but you but you had a you had a reason to come because you had done the two movies. Yeah. I mean, I was really gambling. Yeah? But that's not an old story.

A lot of people do that. Sure. But yeah, so I was out. And then I go in for this casting session. I meet Don Phillips. He casts Fast Times at Richmond High, Serpico. Oh, yeah. He produced Melvin Howard. Oh, that's a great movie.

He just died on Thanksgiving. Oh, shit. Yeah. How old was he? I got the call. I wasn't. Well, you stayed close with that guy? I did, but more like he'd call me.

Hey, Yankee, suck, roar. You know? We were just buddies. So he's an old-timey casting director? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. yeah and producer and producer and he um he was casting that and uh he just had a process where he wouldn't make actors read he would just talk yeah to them and get a feel and sense for them and then he would bring them back accordingly yeah and uh and then everybody it was like four or five times you had to go back and then everybody read um the main character and

all the girls read the main girl for uh dazed and confused yeah yeah and then they sort of put you where they thought that you should go but i remember they had a pizza party for all the finalists. Yeah. And they basically told everybody you got the part. Except for me. I went back to New York and I was like, oh, well. But I thought you moved out here. I did, but I had gone back to New York just to be like,

fuck this for a minute. Oh, really? Yeah. And then I got a call, like, want to go to texas for the summer and i was like yes i do yeah and it yeah it was great i mean that was a blast so that character was kind of lit up yeah and it seems very different than you yeah i mean i i knew uh like hippies growing up and yeah you know yeah so you knew the rap yeah yeah and was that was that all scripted a lot of it was improvised yeah um but when that movie came out uh it it didn't do well in the box

office but it became like a cult classic yeah and for about a year afterwards all they were doing was offering me you know that Dude, where's your car? Right. Half-baked. You know, just all these similar. Because you were a character. Right. And I thought, well, if I go down, and that goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning.

If I go and take all these jobs, you know, then I'm that guy. Right. Right. As a kid, almost. Like you're playing teenager. You get boxed in. Yeah. And, yeah, you take that. Then that money's gone. Right. Right. As a kid, almost. Like you're playing teenager. You get boxed in. Yeah. And yeah, you take that.

Then that money's gone, right? Right. And that's- And then who are you? That's your resume. And so you knew enough to avoid that. Yeah. I made sure that the next thing I did after that was completely opposite.

So you were given at least the opportunity to read for a lot of stuff and you were able to have a choice and you were able to get whatever came next, 11 to 45 or whatever. Again, Don Phillips didn't cast that, but he introduced the director and me and some other people together. And he sort of was responsible for making that happen. So he's sort of your champion, that guy. I mean, he championed me definitely championed a lot of people yeah um but he wasn't you know i wasn't uh not gonna eat right because you know if don didn't come through on something he i didn't look at him like no no

right right right yeah yeah but he i i guess the point is he believed in you early on he did yeah yeah and it's good to have those guys it is yeah and he uh i mean when you look him up later he he is uh he was a legend yeah i mean just even just going out i have friends multiple friends that are in the business yeah they can tell you about don phillips and were you guys hanging out too like did he like did he share stories about the oh, yeah All it yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah, it was wonderful. I'll miss him Yeah, were you able to and he wasn't minding his P's and Q's, you know, he tells you what's up, right? Yeah So you got the real story? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so were you able to like who when you were coming up?

I mean who were the guys that you look up to when you were watching movies? Who were your guys, you know, like where you were like, that's the guy? You know, when you're younger, you always, you know, think about Robert De Niro and those guys, Pacino. When you're in the business for a while, people can be sort of disappointing. you're in the business for a while uh people can be sort of disappointing um yeah sometimes if you meet them or just sometimes you just see oh yeah yeah so you kind of and your candle goes out right yeah it's almost like what you were talking about when you do get to meet them you have that human experience that you were talking about and that's got to play into the the catalog that you're doing do you know what i'm saying like you know if you meet one of these guys that you thought was great or or whatever and they're disappointing or they're

just you know painfully human or not interesting i mean that's that's one of those human experiences that that disappointment um yeah and you know no one i think should be put on a pedestal yeah um and i don't think they'd want to be put on their pedestal and if they didn't then they're probably a fucking asshole sure yeah but but it is kind of an interesting thing to to because i imagine over time i don't know the full uh filmography but you must have met a lot of guys you spent your childhood watching yeah sure and you know it's uh it's nice when that happens yeah yeah I feel fortunate you feel I mean it would listen it was great to work with Johnny Depp I was like holy shit you're fucking you know yeah Johnny Depp yeah you know he the guys like the biggest movie star in the world.

Yeah, yeah. And was he a nice guy? Sweetheart. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, yeah. The problem with the media is that they portray whatever they want to portray, but they don't know necessarily these people.

Sure. And they paint them as these. Yeah. The guys wouldn't come to work because they were treating the crew badly. We were in Wisconsin shooting this Michael Mann movie. Which one was that? Public Enemies.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. What'd you play in that? I played a FBI agent. And O'Depp sort of went on strike for a day or two? Yeah, I mean, everybody had to fly in, the studio heads. Because they were, just because he didn't want to go to work where you're treating the crew badly.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, think about that. Yeah. Right? Right. So he doesn't have to do that. Yeah. But he's saying, no, I want, you know what I mean, think about that. Yeah. Right? Right. So he doesn't have to do that.

Yeah. But he's saying, no, I want, you know what I mean? People treat it correctly. It's like a character thing. Sure. So when they assassinate somebody's character, I think it's awful, you know, because people believe whatever they, you know, what's out there. Sure.

What do you take from, like, when did you start to feel obviously the actor you were in dazed and confused you know you were younger and you know you you got the character whatever but it seems that like at some point you started to sort of realize like i don't want to be a movie star i mean you did i guess you knew that pretty close right after that that you weren't going to be typecast but at some point your sort of approach to acting must have expanded you know in terms of like how you were going to you know utilize your experience and you know deal with these guys as human when does that start to where'd you get that i guess i mean i guess i decided decided after the Daisy Confused thing that, you know, you could probably clean up right now financially.

Right. But if I want to be in it for the long haul. So it was a business decision more than an art decision? I mean, I think it was both. Money was never part of the, the process. Yeah. It was just, how can I do this for a long time? Right.

I'll give you an example. Yeah. Um, so there was a cast director, uh, named Mally Finn. Yeah. Are you familiar with her? Well, she's no longer with us, but, um, casting this movie titanic yeah um and she uh brought me in and asked me straight up she was like do you want to be a movie star and i said no yeah and she goes what do you want to do i said well i want to be like a like a freight train that just keeps

on moving yeah you know yeah and she's like all right well there's four or five actors that i'm considering it for to meet james for this yeah they didn't need a star because they had 250 million dollars yeah uh and she's like i won't bring you in to meet james yeah i said okay so no titanic uh yeah i mean who's to say no of course of course but but you knew what the point is is that you knew you wanted longevity and to sort of you know have a lifetime of work and evolve with the work yeah i mean you know as opposed to you know uh ego driven right yeah yeah so you don't you don't have any differentiation you don't you know tv's fine uh i mean nowadays they're they're not showing but when you started you know i mean you did a lot oh yeah you

did a lot of csi but i mean but you know when but back in the day you know i imagine you're hanging out with some actors right when you're you're younger, in your 20s? You had some friends. Yeah. And you had that sort of business, sort of like, don't do TV, man. Was there any of that going on? You know, back in the day, there were producers who still felt like, oh, well, that guy's a television actor. Yeah.

But nowadays, it doesn't fucking matter what the hell you do. But when did you start doing TV? I took that job when I was 30. I had moved back to New York. Yeah. And, you know, it was like really good money for me, you know. I was like, this is kind of crazy. The CSI Miami?

Yeah. Yeah. And so we did that and I just- Did you spend a lot of time in Florida? No, not too much. That was fun though. They'd fly us down for pickup shots or aerial shots or whatever the fuck. But we did that and it was the number one show in the world.

Yeah. Not just America, in the world. Right. And everybody thinks I'm nuts. I want to get off this thing, you know. You did want to get off it? Yeah. But you did, like, a lot.

Well, I did two years. Yeah. And so after two years, you can negotiate and get the really good money. Yeah. And they said, do you want to do that? I said, no. I said, I just want, can they let me out? And they said, everyone thought i was nuts

i mean really there wasn't they had to kill you i didn't have a well i didn't ask them to kill me but that's what they decided to do but then part of the you didn't ask him yeah yeah i said what you know well they're gonna let me out they said they said yeah i said they said but you have to do two episodes for the remainder of your contract, which was the six-year contract. So I said, well, they shot me. They're not going to do that. That doesn't make any sense. And so three years later, they brought me back.

I was like a ghost. And I did it because I agreed to do it. And given that that was the thinking of how to bring you back, that's probably why you left in the first place, is that that could happen. There was a number of reasons why I left. They didn't treat people very well. Yeah.

You know, you sort of, they went through seven wardrobe departments in my two years. You stopped sort of like learning people's names because they would just fire them like right left and right and then you're you know you're you're um you're getting into i felt like i was getting into bad patterns where i just didn't care well that's i think that's the thing is that's the that's the the the faustian bargain that you make you know that most people make for the money.

You know, why bail? Well, I mean, if you're soul dead and you're sweeping through the thing and you're not honoring your heart, after a certain point, that's going to crush you. Right. And yet I don't have children, so if I did, I probably would have wrote it out.

Interesting, yeah. And I probably would have wrote it out. Interesting. Yeah. And I probably would have made a lot of different choices. Sure. Sure. Yeah. To have children would have been one. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, so, but most of it was because you wanted to honor, you know, what you got into it for. I mean, it was a good gig. It got you solvent and, you know, you're grounded and you got a life and you got some money in the bank. So now, like, go back to doing what, you know, the things you want to do as opposed to be that guy for the rest of your life.

I mean, you avoided being that guy before. Yeah, I mean, I don't regret that one bit. But I certainly don't know how it would be you know had i done it for 10 years well yeah it seems like you know that i have to assume that every job you take you know adds to a certain amount of experience right so like you know whatever it was for those 50 episodes you probably got some chops. Somehow you become more of a veteran, and there's certain habits and stuff that are good to have in place so you can kind of free yourself to do the other shit.

Yeah, you always learn something. How different, like with Public Enemy, so you work with Michael Mann. Now, in terms of directors, what's your experience been in terms of, because I've talked to directors, I've talked to actors with directors. Have there been directors that have had a profound influence on you? I imagine Cooper does.

I mean, Cooper's, for him to take a chance on me playing Steve Fleming in Black Mass, which is that Whitey boulder story belongs to boston yeah it's their thing yeah and a lot of people tried to make it for a long time and not only that you know when they're making it you have the agencies obviously pushing their clients you know yeah trying to package you know sure so they sort of had to him and john lesher had to go uh around that yeah and

just say we want you to to do it and um how'd you meet scott on that he brought you in for that i met yeah he he knew you and he wanted i i guess he knew of me yeah um but But, yeah, and once I, you know, we had a rapport, I was like, this is fucking amazing. Like, I,

and then we did Hostiles. Yeah, you were great in that too. I met him on a plane. He told me that. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like,

who's that guy? Rory, what is that guy all about? Oh, he told you about that? Yeah. I was like, even back then, I was like, I want to meet that guy. I was like, well, thank you.

So, yeah, so as an actor, when you work with a guy like Scott, you just feel free. You kind of feel at home. You feel supported. You feel nurtured. Yeah. There's like a shorthand. You just feel like you're able without any, you have nothing holding you back. Interesting.

He gives you the freedom to bring what you can. And of course, you know, he knows what he wants, how to manipulate, you know, certain scenes and stuff. Yeah. But yeah, it's just a very freeing experience. Would you say that's like one of the better experiences you've had? Yeah, I would. On both films? Yeah.

Hostiles? Yeah. That's a great movie. It is a good movie. of the Northern Cheyenne. His name's Chief Phillip. Uh-huh. And, you know, he's a good friend of mine now. Oh, yeah? We've been out to the reservation in Montana and I've been with him

at other places in America. Yeah. It's just, you know, that's the beauty of part of this business is developing these relationships. If you do, If you do. If you do.

You would never otherwise come across probably. So what's that experience been like for you? Like having a relationship with a contemporary Native American culture? Growing up in New York, I had never met a Native American before. So it was very powerful. Yeah. Especially the subject matter of that movie. It's just...

In terms of the history and... Yeah, I wish there was a way... Because I think that a lot of Americans don't even know or understand what's still happening with these reservations. With the drug problem, alcohol. I mean, number one, deaths by police. Oh, really? Missing women never get, you know, that white girl was missing. Ten minutes, yeah.

It was all over the news for like a month or whatever. Yeah, until they found her and the killer. They're missing all the time. Yeah. And nobody's done anything about it. Must be heavy. And it is, I grew up in New mexico he's not from new mexico though they brought him in right yeah he's from montana yeah yeah it's beautiful up there right and when

you do uh like what like michael mann what was that like to work with him as a director um he you know it's it's michael mann so you're excited. Yeah. He's very, very particular about what he wants. And sometimes I think he creates like a sense of chaos that doesn't need to be there. Oh, really? Yeah. But, you know, he's made so many good films that, you know, if you think it works for you, then... Right, right.

I guess so you got to put... There were a lot of frustrated departments on that film, I'll just say. You seem to be pretty sensitive on the whole operation, which is nice. Like, you know, you seem to have a sense of the community of a project. Well, it's important. Yeah.

I mean, as you know, fucking catering is very important. Oh, dude. Yeah. Like, it affects the morale, right? When you got bad food, it's the worst. When you got crew guys going out to McDonald's because the food's so bad, then you're not going to have a happy set. Yeah.

Cable is not going to be laying the way it should. No, right. Even craft services, if that stinks, it's like, you know. Yeah. Because you're living there. People should be cognizant of the whole group. But even like it seems that, you know, like your alliance or your understanding, and these are just relationships part of the job

to know these casting directors and to understand, you know, what they've done and where they come from and who they are as people. It's important because they're, you know, they're your portal. They're going to be the ones that are like, let's bring that guy in. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What about Argo? Was that exciting? Yeah. I mean, we got to shoot in Istanbul, which is great. Had you been there before? I hadn't. Wow.

So that was really great. And, you know, Ben is a tremendous director. I mean, the uh was fucking phenomenal i like that movie yeah yeah and i just saw he didn't direct i just saw him in that cloney movie i saw him in two movies good actor too yeah he um was excellent yeah and how was that set was that uh uh did you did you feel like he could really do the work? Yeah, he had us live in a house in, I don't know, it was Hancock Park, a flat somewhere down there.

Yeah. Had us, you know, the five or six, however many it was of us. Hostages? Yeah, live in a house for a week. We didn't know each other. the hostages. Yeah. We lived in a house for a week. We didn't know each other. Had the wardrobe, 70s wardrobe, and just see you in a week kind of thing. Yeah. And they bring us food.

Right, right. So you had a sort of a slightly upscale hostage experience? Yeah, we had to figure it out. Play board games, tell stories, drink a lot, you know. Yeah, you know, but by the end of it, we had a, you know, sort of a forced artificial bond that was becoming real. And that completely, that grounded the roles. I think it helped. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I guess so. I guess like, you know. But, you know, you go to Istanbul and, you know, guys are grabbing these girls in the street and, you know,

they're terrified and I think all that stuff sort of helped. Oh, that the culture itself was... Yeah, well, because it's not, you know,

it's not, they're not used to these foreigners sort of walking around showing skin. Right. So you're just saying they can't control themselves. I'm not saying all of them. I'm saying, you know, it happened. Right. It shook them up a little bit.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. it shook them up a little bit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So is there something that you, like, as, I know you just want to be afraid training, just want to keep moving and keep getting opportunities, but is there something in your mind you want to do or accomplish, you know, as an actor or try that you haven't done yet?

Do you, you know, I asked Jesse about it. I said, why don't you guys, I thought like the two of you should do True West. And he's like, we don't do theater. He's like, you're not going to do theater. It's like, no one does.

Like, you know, I thought that you two guys should, you know, do like a play, a Sam Shepard play. I really was pitching him hard on it. And he says,

we're always not going to do theater. I just, um, you know, God bless those people that do that. You know, that's all I can say. I, I, Yeah, I have...

No desire. No desire. It's interesting, though. I mean, right? Because you must have done it in high school a bit. Yeah, and, you know, I wasn't jumping up and down about that. What is it essentially about that type of acting that is a turnoff? I think it's a lot of risk.

There's very little reward. There are plays I've seen where there are tremendous performances and they're real and amazing. And then there's others where, you know know they're using their diaphragm to reach the back of the room and yeah it's kind of um all oh yeah so so it's just exaggerated and it's not your bag it's on my bag yeah yeah and you know i i i want to watch a movie yeah you know i'd rather watch a movie but also acting in movies is so a movie, you know? I'd rather watch a movie.

But also acting in movies is so much different because, you know, you can bring it way in. You can bring it way in, you can do it again. Yeah. You fuck up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's sort of part of it too. Yeah, it's a big part of it.

Yeah, yeah. We were doing a Shakespeare play in high school and I was playing Jake Ways, you know, from As You Like It. Uh-huh. And my mother somehow goes backstage before the show. Nobody else's parents were there. Yeah. She's like, I don't forget your lines.

It never occurred to me to forget my lines. I didn't know that was a possibility. So I go out there. I got the famous speech. Yeah. You know, all the world's a stage and so forth. And nothing. I forget my fucking lines.

I'm like, holy shit. There's like 750 people on this thrust stage. We have the outfits and Juilliard on, you know, mustaches and shit. Sure, yeah. And I'm like, holy shit. Sure, yeah. And I'm like, holy shit, gone, nothing.

And? And the little groundlings are like trying to, you know, tell me the lines. Yeah. I got through it somehow and the next three nights

were fine, but that was scary, you know, because it's not like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you can't stop the show. It's Shakespeare,

you know. And our teacher said, oh, well, if you're ever forget a line, just say, couch we a while and mark. You can't fucking do that. Yeah. You can't do that in Shakespeare. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. You can't just start making up shit. You know? Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a lot to unpack in terms of, you know, why you might not want to do theater. It involves your mother and forgetting your lines. Yeah.

Yeah. And that'll do it. So this role that you did just now with the encounter thing, the cop, now when you get, how do you decide that you're going to do a project? Like what is it? The usual. It is, you know, who are the people? Sure.

Good people. And who's the director okay and it all like linked up and you like the part enough yeah and i you know i love uh riz Ahmed who you know fan has since uh the night of yeah on hbo which is really great yeah um and octavia is amazing to work with she's so cool and like professional and nice and just she's just like a dream to work with really when you work with other actors what what what determines whether it's great for you i mean if they're they're basically not an asshole you know right you know they're fucking weird and they do their shit and i don't care how weird people are what do they got to do to

get wherever they need to be yeah don't fuck everybody else up you know don't fuck me up don't fuck other people up because of your bullshit right you know right that's all yeah it's pretty simple you know right don't ruin it for everybody no it's like america just be fucking decent get your shit together be decent yeah that's all doesn't matter there's no room the world of venom and fucking hate and division just get your shit together yeah and be decent yeah you're a decent person right that's it yeah on all levels it's not that difficult across the board yeah yeah well i think that's a good place to end. It's good talking to you, man.

Hey, you too. Thanks for doing it. Hey, listen. What? You ever go by the comedy store? I'm always there, yeah. Yeah? Why?

No, I just- You come down? I do. Oh, really? I love that place, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm there almost every night when it's open. Really?

Yeah. Have you been since the pandemic ended? Once. Oh, yeah. I'm usually there. I put in for this week. I got to fly up to Sonoma tomorrow to interview the Smothers Brothers. But I'll probably be there this weekend, Friday and Saturday.

Nice. Yeah. Come down. Say hi if you're there. I will. Which room do you hang out in? Well, I mean, it all depends what she gives me. Maybe we'll switch your maybe we'll

get switch numbers and i'll let you know okay after the after this good thanks man pleasure there you go rory cochran going all the way back heavy dude heavy cat playing it tight uh you can watch the movie encounter streaming streaming on Amazon Prime Video. And also, I got my Fender Champ back. And this is what it sounds like. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey. Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere, man.

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