WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1296 - Drew Michael

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

Drew Michael wants his comedy to feel different. He wants the audience to have a unique experience. This mindset actually reminds Marc of his own style of comedy, as well as a few other iconoclastic stand-ups who used their time on stage to get laughs but also get to the bottom of life's problems. Drew and Marc talk about the combustible nature of experimental comedy, specifically Drew's new special Red Blue Green. They also talk about how Drew's childhood hearing loss shaped his life and made comedy a viable way for him to be understood. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What the fuck stirs?'s it going are you okay is everything all right did you get over it did you get it checked are you feeling better are you getting out much how terrified are you are you in the midst of an existential tailspin where are we at what's going on put the ice cream down put it down it's 10 a.m enough with the cookies it's it's seven in the morning that's not breakfast so today on the show this guy drew michael he's a comedian uh writer he was a staff writer on saturday night live for a couple seasons uh back in 2018 he did an experimental self-titled comedy special where he had no audience.

His new special is called Red, Blue, Green. Look, I didn't know this guy. And, um, my old manager represents him. And my old manager said, do you know this guy? And I'm like, I don't know this guy. And he said, he's got this special red blue green and i said all right well i'll check him out but i don't but but that's just the way this goes sometimes i don't know all the new comics the young guns but i watch this guy and you know his groove was familiar because there's only a few guys that do

that at any one time i used to be one of the guys that did that maybe i still am there's only a few guys that do that at any one time. I used to be one of the guys that did that. Maybe I still am. There's a type of comedy, a type of tone, that I think I was a little more aggressive about when I was younger, the I-can-see-what-you-can't-see tone. I watched this guy, and, you know, I saw something familiar, something I related to, and I thought, okay, I'll talk to this guy. So he's here today, and we had some issues, and I'll get into that in a second.

So I talked to you about Buster. Yeah, Buster's still on. He's good. Bounce back. Thank God. I got to quit leaning on the cats. Do you know what I mean? I got to quit leaning on the cats. Do you know what I mean? I got to just give him a rest.

Hyper-focused. There's a lot going on, though. It's very awful that Saget passed away. And as most of you know, I posted just all the talks we had. We had three. And he was so funny and so nice. And so he's a great guy.

He's very sad. And I'm going to go to the funeral. And I generally don't go to funerals. I don't know why. I don't, I mean, funerals are definitely different than weddings. You know, they only happen once. And it's heavy. But, I mean, I didn't go to Pat i i mean i didn't go to patrice's

i didn't go to giraldo's i really haven't been to a funeral in a while because i am either not around or i'm on the road and but i'm going to saggots because i'm in town it's not far and i have a suit i have a black suit as an adult in show business you have a black suit that's my choice i don't have a tux i have a black suit. That's my choice. I don't have a tux. I have a black suit. So that's either apparently for award shows where I don't win anything and now for funerals. That's why I have the black suit. You can go to a lot of award shows in your black suit and never win anything. And you can go to funerals in your black suit and at least know that that's what you're going to get. That's definite. The award, who knows? Death is coming, baby.

But I don't know his family at all, but I know his friends, and we have friends in common, and I'm going just to, you know, as a show of respect and love for the guy. And his first funeral I've gone to in a while. And, and I don't know, I guess I have an aversion who doesn't, but I got to grow the fuck up.

It's time, you know, go show up for the other people. Very sad that, you know, when Lynn died, I don't, I don't know.

I, I guess there was a memorial up in Seattle with her friends during COVID, but there was nothing, there was nothing here. I, you know, I, I was not involved in anything, uh, as a memorial or a funeral or anything like that for Lynn. And, you know, I regret that. I think that, you know, you do get closure. There is something about processing the passing of somebody and processing grief in general that happens when you go to a funeral when you go when you sit shiva when you do you go through the process of sort of collective grieving but you know i got a black suit i'm gonna wear it so this guy, Drew Michael, this comedian.

So what happened? I'll tell you what happened. So as I said earlier, my old manager, Dave, suggests this guy to me. He says, have you checked him out? I'm like, no. He says, you should check him out. I think you'll like it. And I want to see if you'd be interested in having him on.

So I'll check it out i want to you know i want to see if you'd be interested in having them on so i'll check it out and this guy did something like he's different obviously than me and but there there's a type of comedy that that is uh the practitioners of which are far and few there's only a few and i know where it starts i know where it comes from you know i know the sources you know there's there's hicks there's stanhope there's whatever i was doing when i was and I know where it starts. I know where it comes from. I know the sources. There's Hicks. There's Stan Hope. There's whatever I was doing when I was younger, maybe a couple of other people,

but I just know where the guy was coming from. I could tell by the style and how he was trying to prove what he was trying to prove and the sort of lesson teaching of the tone, and I watched it, and there's a couple of great bits in there, and the sort of lesson teaching of the tone. And I watched it, and there's a couple of great bits in there, and the ending's interesting. But I just felt there's some stuff in it that was familiar to me, and I got a little squirrely about it.

So I did some Googling, and I found some stuff that made me uncomfortable. And I told Dave, and he told this guy Drew, and Drew was like, I'll talk to him about it so you know there is some some stuff there is some discussion of either parallel thinking or not knowing something has been retread yeah i would i stopped short of like calling stan hope to say like wait do you know this guy? Have you watched this? Am I wrong? Is there something, is this? But it doesn't matter really.

You know, I was diplomatic about it and the special ends well. And as I said, there's some good bits in it, but it just, I don't know if it was because it sounded familiar to me because of what I used to do or what I do do, or, you know, whether or not, you know, it it's just he's the new guy doing it who knows but we get into it a bit and uh and he's a

very smart guy the special is called Drew Michael red blue green it's not streaming on HBO max and this is me talking to Drew. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Well, that was the thing about people coming to the house was that it was disarming, you know, because it wasn't when when I started this thing, people weren't used to doing that. Right. So they'd come and they'd have to reckon with the fact that, you know, not only was it like some studio, but it was my life. Yeah. So, you know, you're cooking a soup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, it brings people to a different place. Right. You know, right away. It's a little gets them off center. You know, it wasn't on purpose. Just, like, pulling up into somebody's home.

Yeah. It's a, I don't want to say intimidating experience, but there's something to it. It's definitely uneven. Right. It's not show business. And it's like you don't know really what you're getting into. Like, if you go to a TV studio, like you did Kimmel the other night, you kind of know you're going to go to the dressing room.

There's going to be some snacks. Someone's going to talk to you about the thing. Right. But when you're just driving to a guy's house, it's sort of like, I don't know what's going on. Well, I didn't even know that there's no one else here. No. There's no one running. No.

No one's here. No one's running the mics. No one's running the soundboard. No. It's just you. Just me. Yeah. It becomes an issue when people bring people. That was my whole big idea was like i'd get this separate building and

people could you know use the bathroom out here if they brought people they could sit in that other room but i don't like it i make them sit outside yeah i i kind of knew to come solo i was like i don't think this is like a bring people this isn't't a plus one affair. You're going to bring Becky. Yeah, no. I think my brother wanted to go. My brother came to Kimmel with me and I was like, I think this is just going to be me. Does he live out here? He does. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. What's he do out here? He works

in sales. Oh. He's just out here? He's just out here. He and his girlfriend moved out here. Huh. They were from Chicago. Yeah. They wanted to get out of the weather. Yeah. And it was either New York or or la they decided to come here well new york wouldn't get you too far out of the weather yeah no it i mean whatever it's all over well yeah yeah that's it well that's the interesting thing like uh it is i agree with you people are garbage and the earth is dying well yeah it's just like i you know it's yeah it every turn it's just like, you know, it's, yeah, every turn, it's just like you forget about it for a second.

Like you can have like those moments of solace with yourself. Yeah. And then, you know, even just at the airport. Yeah. Everyone's in a mask, which I'm for. Sure. Like on a germ level, on a people or a gross level, like cover your face. But it's a harbinger.

It's like it's an omen. It doesn't look good. it's a harbinger. It's like, it's an omen. It doesn't look good. It's not an omen. It's here. Yeah. It's an omen for a second from now. It's not a sign that this is how it's going to be. Yeah, right.

Yeah. But it was weird, you know, like, I watch you and then, like, I'm like, yeah, I know this. Because you do what I do, kind of, you know, not in a bad way. You know, there's only a couple of guys to talk about themselves that thoroughly and think about the world that you know sort of engaged in angrily and cynically i just related to where you were coming from because i can see how you built yourself yeah i'm sure you can see that um the way i would put it is like if we were videos at blockbuster, we'd be on the same wall.

Yeah, the one that no one rents. The weird small cult wall of aggravated Jew comics. Yeah, right. Jeff's picks. Yeah, Jeff the angry guy. Yeah. The brooding guy. Do you feel yourself getting territorial when someone comes along and either echoes some of the same themes or same impetus for what you're doing? Because obviously you've been around longer than I have. Sure. And I can relate to that. I mean, I'm not, you know, I haven't been around as long, but I've been around long enough for another generation to exist underneath me, quote unquote, in the chronological sense. And so I think I can relate to the feeling of feeling like, you know, if someone's encroaching, a little threatened.

Yeah. Not so much because. Better or worse. it's just- Well, the thing is, is that there's only like a handful of people that do what we do at any given time. You know, there's not a lot of people doing, you know, relatively progressive, cynical, cultural commentary. It just isn't.

Right. And there aren't that many people whose heroes might be Hicks or Stanhope or whoever, you know, Louie, whoever, you know, moves you in that direction towards sort of an angry revelation type of comedy that isn't, at this point, there seems to be a lot of that going on in a kind of hackneyed sense in the anti-woke crowd. Right. But that's different.

You know, they're taking it a different direction and it's not really's it's not really uh humanistic even in a sort of a hicksy and misanthropic way they seem to be taking some of the worst parts right of uh the people we're talking about without the the the weighted humanity without the you know right levity without like the thing that makes it what it is it's it's it's like and those types of comics you're talking about you know the the ones that inspired you know people like me and also the other kinds of people you're talking about i think you know what they generated a kind of backlash that has now it's kind of been like reverse engineered like where people are looking at the linchpin of those

comics is like they generated this kind of uproar and so people i feel like are seeking the uproar as a way to essentially validate themselves as that type of comic well that's interesting but like ultimately historically what i think is that you know those guys are you know and you know doug is still alive and i think he's really the only true proprietor of that envelope pushing business. But, you know, no one, Hicks is a comic phenomenon. He's a myth among us. You know, he generated very little uproar. He, you know, he had a hard time making a buck in this country.

Yeah. You know, getting cut from Letterman and the religious right backlash. Yeah, but that was still very, very small. Sure, sure. Relatively speaking. Sure. But I think what you're doing, what you're saying is probably true in that the drive shaft of, you know, fuck you-ness has been co-opted and misdirected. Well, yeah.

I mean, even on the small scale, I mean, it doesn't matter when you're watching a Hicks clip on YouTube and you see the crowd turning against him and you see him saying, you know, Hitler had the right idea. He was just an underachiever. You see that kind of acrimony existing

between the audience. And the fact that he was overlooked makes people say, okay, so I'm also neglected by the mainstream. I must be doing amazing. Yeah, it's a badge of honor. It's a badge of honor. It's a marketing tool.

Right, but now, and we're getting into the weeds, I just feel that anti-woke anger is the new hack, and a lot of unfunny people can cop the disposition and then blame their lack of ability to get work on the fact that they're just too, you know. But it's all promotional. I get that. I get that.

But it's only going to work with a small bunch of people. Yeah, it's promotional. But I mean, there's a bunch of secondary anti-woke dudes that are not going to get work unless they're touring with the primary anti-woke dudes. So you're saying it's a grift. Well, I'm saying that it serves a purpose and it seems to be fueled by almost nihilism. Like there is no belief at stake here. There's no principle.

I think that that nihilism is being exploited by somewhat fascistic forces to do its bidding. And I mean, that's the problem is when you see guys you've known for 20 years lock into this mindset around language that is just operating to to sort of fuel the fire of wrong minded bullshit on a tribal level. And what you know, what they're calling their fans is really just this army of fucking meatheads that aren't really comedy people. Yeah, well, it's like, you know, if people are, you know, a ticket is a ticket in some minds. I get that. I'm not saying that. But like to me, and this is, yeah, maybe this is the weeds. I don't know. But like after Trump, it's kind of just like, okay, so having a lot of people support you

or follow you is meaningless. Does it mean that you're saying anything good or right or correct? No, it just means you can get through to them and they'll give you money and you satisfy some broken part of their fucked upness and elevate it. Yeah, you're speaking to them on an emotional level without it being emotionally complex. You validate them. Yeah, you're activating a part of them. But the thing that is concerning is that I've been doing this bit on stage about that.

I'm not one of these comics that you'll ever hear hear say like right fellas because i don't even know what you guys do i'm not you guys who the fuck you know here's right fellas and goes yeah that's me you know you're doing something wrong right so like because me like i don't identify with hardly anybody i get you know i can get things you know in common with some people but i've sort of like fought to have my own self and and that is what you're supposed to do right to actually be a free thinker so if we got into this racket you know to uh to sort of get our thoughts which i think is what you do you do that and that's why i did i didn't get into this because i felt like i was an entertainer right i got into this because

i thought it was a a reasonable place for me to find myself and to figure out what the fuck my truth is and how to be seen. Yes. Yeah. Stand-up was a language that I kind of just implicitly understood. I watched stand-up and I was like, I think like this. This is kind of how my brain works. I didn't know this was anything. I thought this was just like weird, isolating rumination.

I didn't think that this had an outlet. And so there was something super liberating about seeing people that spoke to me in that sense and saying, okay, this is a place where I can, like you're saying, iron out some of my own- You can choose your own territory. Inner identity. Yeah, exactly. And if I started to feel like I was being, you know, embraced by like, you know, a group. Yeah. It's annoying. It always feels a little uncomfortable.

Well, yeah, because like that's something different. And, you know, you attract what you are. So I imagine just from watching your stand-up. And look, I identify with where you're coming from, you know, in terms of having, you know, selfish parents, philandering father, what, you know, that kind of stuff, you know, I mean, I had that, but I mean, I didn't have the hearing thing, but we can get into that. But like that, my point was like, that there's some sort of tribalization going on. And that right now there seems to be a fine line between, you know, mainstream, you know, comedy shows and rallies. What I always got into it for was to sort of have a small audience work

the shit out and have a revelation each show you know for myself and for other people and to get somewhere yeah or even you know in between the shows where you do the bit you do the set and then you're thinking sometimes i can you know think most clearly about the act about the bit about the material when i've just done a version of it. Because it's fresh in my mind. I'm able to replay it in my head, almost like sitting in the back of the room for my own show.

Yeah. And so you're kind of fresh and the adrenaline's kicking and you're kind of walking around after the set thinking about it. Yeah, what sticks? And a lot of times, yeah, the clarity comes in there where there's something that you add, there's something that changes or shifts. But like you say, when you're talking about personal things, even if it's not literally personal, it's not literally about your life, these things are close to you. Those revelations that you have comedically can also be a personal revelation.

This is what I think. This is how I feel about it. Sure. You don't know how you think until you say it, and then you don't know where it's going to go until it goes. So you don't know how you think until you say it. And then like, you don't know where it's going to go until it goes. But, but I just know that from what you're doing up there, we, you know, I, you know, you're not looking for, you know, mainstream success. And, you know, sadly, you know, I'm further down the line than you.

Sure. You know, with, you know, some of the things you're wrestling with and, you know, not everybody's like us. So, so that's going to be the weird kind of crossroads. It's sort of like you have to accept the fact that people are laughing because they're like, what the fuck is this? Sure. Right. And then you're going to have to accept the fact that, you know, how different we are.

And then you start to accept the fact that, like, I'm sharing these emotional handicaps in an effort to figure out who I am, but also in an effort to be seen by like-minded people. And I continue to do that. But there's nothing simple about what you're doing or what I'm doing. And you've decided that. Well, do you also... So something that I've been wrestling with recently is I think I used to be much more gung-ho about the idea that I was working it out both personally and professionally in the same forum and something that I've come to you know I'm 36 yeah so that's you know that's not old right it is the first time I've ever felt not young yeah you know like I'm not the young yeah guy right there's other people around yeah I don't know who the fuck you guys are what you do like I go to the lower east side of new york you know especially after the pandemic because like

i'm two years older but the lower east side is still 22 yeah so like it's and they all got money yeah i don't know what they i have literally no idea what these people are operating right yeah so so there is like that is the first time i've ever experienced that where there's a legitimate generation that isn't high school kids. Yeah. That's like, I don't know what the fuck's going on. I get what you're saying. Like, oh, look, there's, yeah, I'm a real grownup.

Yeah, they're like doing stuff. There's fresh grownups that are younger than me. They're in my way, but they don't know that. Anyway, so, you know, at this age, I've started to, you know, obviously reflect on that and question that. And I start to look at the people. And I talk about this in the special. Like, I talk about the people that I looked up to.

And I see kind of like, you know, comedy is a pretty small world. You either get to know them on some level or you're around them or you have access to, like, their offstage happenings or whatever. And some of it's national news. And so, it's like, I like i look at like where the people have ended up life-wise and i'm like okay so super inspiring on stage but like maybe not so inspiring off stage and i and i question how connected those two things are for yourself or generally like how much how much of is it how much are we locking ourselves into a modality that prevents a certain type of actual growth? Because we can always, if we need to, mine it and articulate it beautifully and all that stuff for something that can be lauded and something that can be applauded.

But not necessarily. It's a risk with somebody like you or me that you don't know. I mean, you seem to be doing okay right now. We'll see how it all lands, right? Sure. But depending on who you are, how you handle it, it will become a shtick or it won't if you don't let it. And it seems that you're compelled to go beyond that. and um you know i have you know very specific opinions of it because you and i are you know coming from the same wheelhouse in a way you know i paid a different type of attention to it because

i could sense and to answer your question is i don't find it threatening but but to finish the thought from earlier i you know i know there's only a few of us to do this and so when when i see somebody doing it i'm like there's a part of me that's sort of like what the fuck is this but then i realized like it it's not the easy path and there's not that many people that do it so you know just hear them out but but it is funny the the comparisons uh because like i know when i'm paying homage to certain things that i've taken in as I've gotten through this life. I know in the last special that I did, End Times Fun, that my giant closer where Mike Pence blows Jesus, that really isn't my particular style right now, but it is a tip of the hat to Hicks.

I know that structurally, And I do come from that. And I did do that at some point. But I'm highly aware of it. Like, I know when I'm watching you that, you know, when you talk about Fallon the way you do, that, you know, I watched, you know, we all talked about Leno. Hicks did a fairly extensive bit on Leno that was even more brutal than yours. But the same criticism of the same job by a different guy similar criticism I mean

it's definitely that's a conscious homage for sure where it was something I riffed you know I think I was in DC and it was just kind of like a fun I never do voices or impressions of any kind it was kind of just fun when you do it once right and you're like

you can kind of do it but like if you do it once, right? And you're like, you can kind of do it. But like, if you do it on an improv, you really lock in. But then sometimes with me and Voices Anyway, it's like when I try to lock in, it's a little trickier. Like when I'm like, ha. Yeah, no, it's not. I'm not doing a bang, like an on-the-money impression. No, you're just doing the vibe.

You're doing the vibe. Yeah, exactly. And so it was fun. It was silly. I mean, like, you know, I was essentially calling him a sycophant hicks's whole thing was the artistic roll call bit where he's saying like you know he's he's selling burritos doesn't need the money the weird thing is is like that is that if you can criticize that but that's all of it right so you're you know you're standing against this flood right this

tsunami of mainstream entertainment you're saying fuck you and no one really gives a fuck that you say that except three other fuck you people but ultimately you know you're going to find yourself having to navigate that world yeah no right i mean you know even when i posted on instagram that i was doing kimmel all the comments were like well what about fallon or you know like all this kind of stuff yeah and. And so it's not. Yeah, no, exactly. Like, well, so then there's a question of like, you know, okay, these are what I think. This is like my actual thought. It's so easy to throw stones from the outside.

But then I'm also not trying to self-sabotage. I don't want to deny myself. Are you not? I don't think so. I mean, like, or at least I'm wrestling that. No, I see that. But because like, you know, what you do at the end of the special, I'm not talking about cinematically because I don't want to spoil that for anybody. But because I think it seems that, you know, whether you intended to or not, because you

directed this thing and we should get into some background with that stuff. But the thing that, like, stuck with me, like, the one joke that I was, you know, concerned about, it doesn't matter really. But I ended up, you know, Googling the punchline. And then it took me to, you know, this, you know, took me to Zizek, which I imagine you've read him or seen him. Oh, yeah. No, I'm familiar with Zizek. Yeah.

I mean, the thing you're talking about, and we could talk about it if you want. The Titanic bit? Yeah. Well, it's so weird to me. Like, I thought, like, there's a couple bits in there I thought, like, did you rush this hour? Like, were you pulling back from, like, because I know you did an hour recently, right? Not too long ago. 2018.

Oh, okay. So, wow. Because I was- COVID kind of, you know, I took basically a year off and, you know. Yeah. I just was like, you know, it's like, all right, we're going to do a Titanic joke. But, yeah, it was only because, like, I liked the joke, but it was something that sounded, you know, familiar. So, I went on this little rabbit hole.

Yeah. I think the line you're talking about is the iceberg is a hero. Yeah, yeah. And the article that you sent, I just got it. It was like, hey, Mark might want to talk about this. And so I was looking. I was like, oh, interesting. Someone has the same take.

And then it took me a second to realize that maybe there was a, I don't know if it was like a shady accusatory kind of thing. It got me a little defensive because I was like, you know, I know you're not shy on that front. And so I didn't want to enter into, you know, a trial. Well, that's what I thought, you know, when he came in. I'm like, we don't really need to get into it. And I've had that experience where, you know, whatever you fill your head with, you know, it's always exciting when, you know, somebody who's a great thinker, you know,

you have the same thoughts. It's always exciting. Sure. You know, and like there was a lot of things out there in the ether. And that thing is not a tremendous, like it's not that, you know, like I could see how somebody else could. It's not an impossible thing.

Sure, sure. I mean, especially the initial, I mean, the specifics are mine, but like the underlying premise of like this relationship wouldn't have worked doomed yeah yeah yeah like that's not you don't need to know hegel yeah that's to get that you know i don't need to know hegel for anything yeah yeah yeah i it's just one yeah i don't i have never tried yeah i can't i can't do him i've tried but i can't uh i can't there's most of the heavy hitter philosophers are just too dense for me there's a whole language

to it that I don't understand right I think I think you have to like go to school for that and start a language and then have

Noam Chomsky call you an idiot because he's like it's made up right yeah well Noam Chomsky is like it's made up

he's like they want to sound like scientists but they're not yeah no it's all a game so it's like alright

it's like philosophy this is the left this is the left right exactly philosophy psychology theology metaphysics. It's all sort of like an attempt at understanding.

Science and math are different. No, but I think there's an interesting thing to say about that, especially when you're doing comedy from a position of sharing point of view and sharing perspective and insight and not just making an observation of what's in front of you, but actually some rumination and some thinking right about what's going on you're gonna there's going to be overlap sure you know and i would say i put out four hours of material total you know i have that's good through albums and special but i'm just saying like and and on my second one there was one line that I did that bothers me to this day because it has that kind of overlap with a Stanhope line.

Yeah. And it's like, I don't need it. I didn't see it and say it. I said it. And later it was like, oh, that's similar. Tried to change it. Tried to manipulate it. Couldn't do it.

Recorded it. And that's just what it is. And no one called you on it? No. I mean, people have. I mean, you get a YouTube comment here and here there but i think i've come to terms with that i'm like you know what like if if it's it took me years to come to terms with something like that if you're putting out four hours of stuff and there's two lines we're talking about

throughout the entirety of the whole thing that's like similar to a person that you look up to or that you that you have ingested okay right that that that scans still. Yeah, you have to let it go. But see, that's what I was talking about in terms of my reaction to you is that there's only a handful of dudes that we know. You're not going to compare yourself against Brian Regan. Right. Right? So the dudes that you're going to be worried about, there's three of them.

Well, apparently one of them is a Slovenian philosopher. Yes. Well, that's true. He's funny. How far comedy has come. No, you should be worried about. There's three of them. Well, apparently one of them is a Slovenian philosopher. Yes. Well, that's true. He's funny. How far comedy has come. No, you should be flattered that I was on the verge of accusing you of stealing from Zizek. I mean, it's just like that just makes me laugh as a concept.

Yes. It's like, how can you take something from someone who's not making jokes? Well, you can. Yeah. The perspective. Sure. Sure. Of course. No, that was a jokes. Well, you can. Yeah, the perspective, sure, of course.

No, that was a premise. It's a premise. And what I'm willing to indulge is that it's not that big of a stretch of a premise. Right. Yeah, I get it. And I don't think I would... The irony of that, I mean,

I had a tag to that bit about how Revolutionary Road is essentially the sequel of what would have come out of that relationship. And I had seen that on a blog. And so I was like... Oh, really? So you let it go? Yeah, so I didn't do it.

So that's just how I am. I'm not looking to score on anything that... I know, I know. And if you're a smart guy and you're trying to figure yourself out and you're trying to figure the world out and you're trying to build your point of view and you want to read smart people,

you're going to fill your head with stuff and that's just the way it goes and a lot of that stuff influences the way you think i you know i know that there are drive shafts that have even been very useful to me over time that weren't necessarily mine but eventually you build your own and it evolves yeah exactly i'm i'm willing to concede all of that i don't think that that is any kind of um no detriment even think that that is any kind of detriment even I think it's just kind of the function of the modality yeah sure but you are from Chicago?

suburbs yeah which suburb? a suburb called Deerfield Deerfield? you know it? is that the Jewish part? there's a few Jewish parts Highland Park is Jewish

Lake Forest not so Jewish Buffalo Grove pretty Jewish it was that area yeah yeah because i mean i have some uh close friends or like family friends there but but you grew up it's just you and your brother yeah a younger brother and then uh our two parents and they got they got they split when i was 12 my brother was nine oh really and uh yeah then but And yeah. But they both live in the area. Yeah? And they don't talk to each other. Do you talk to both of them?

No. Not currently. I don't know. Neither of them? Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I really want to go here, but I don't know how comfortable I am putting this on blast. Well, how about if we just leave it around the stuff that you discuss publicly?

Okay. But what did your father do when you were growing up? He's an attorney. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And your mom does what? She was an art teacher, but she's retired. Was she ever an artist?

She paints. Yeah, my mom was a painter too. She paints. She got back into it. She was married to a guy who nobody liked. Like literally nobody. Like he had no- Not just you.

No, certainly not me, but like none of my mom's family like there was not a single fan yeah and so it was kind of like how old were you when they got married yeah how old were you when they got married uh 20 i was 20 so you're a grown person and you had to deal with it oh yeah i know yeah i was grown enough enough for him to scream at me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The second guy. Not even the original guy. No, no, he, I don't mind. I won't say his name, but he, I don't mind. They're still together?

No, no. They got divorced when I was, my parents are both twice divorced. Like, they were each other's first. They keep trying, huh? Yeah, yeah. Well, yes. And so, my point was that when my mom was married to this guy it was kind of like this um stockholm kind of thing and all of her the the the sign to me that it was bad

and you know other than the fact that he was this this guy yeah was she she wasn't painting anymore and she wasn't doing anything for herself she wasn't doing anything for herself. She wasn't doing anything creative. And she's a very creative, free-thinking person. Yeah. Or free-flowing person, I should say. And I eventually was like, hey, this is not good. You don't do anything. I got you this canvas to paint on two years ago for your birthday. You haven't touched it.

It's in your fucking attic. Yeah. That's sad. This is coming from you know and uh she was so moved by the conversation that you know she's essentially initiated the kind of proceedings and they end up getting divorced and so oh you kind of you woke her up well yeah the irony is the first the first divorce it's not your fault the second one oh it is if you if you make it a case. Yeah, right. Yeah, this one, no, no, I'm on team do this.

I'm not trying to keep this together. This is a different thing. Yeah. So you talk about this hearing thing seems to be the crux of the neglect. Well, you know, it's funny how painfully obvious and also how long it took me to discover that it is like i you know it's always been something i've known about it's been conscious you were born with it i think three years old what happened i think they don't know hearing uh ear infections and shit maybe but it's it's like hair follicles. The follicles are dead.

It's not like they don't... No one's ever given me a clear answer on it. I've always been like, what happened? It could be a million things. Yeah, I have ear problems now and they can't figure it out. Like tinnitus or whatever? I don't know. Like the pressure problems.

It feels like a station tube stuff. Like in my left ear, it gets like... I feel a rumble when I hear things. Like it sounds like a broken speaker. But pressure's fine. The drum is fine. Okay. I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm not. Not a doctor? Yeah, I can't. That's the only reason I had you over. Yeah, well, I could leave. I had an MRI yesterday. Yeah.

So, well, they'll probably tell you more than I can. But I was. No, I want you to look. When I was. Did you have one of those things? Do you have the. My dad did. The lens thing. He was a doctor have one of those things? My dad did. The lens thing?

One of those things. A little light? Yeah, the light, but it's like that little conic-shaped thing. There's all kinds of attachments to those, to the lights. The conic thing is just a one. I've seen them all. Yeah. All right, go ahead.

No, three years old. Yeah, and I was prescribed hearing aids, I think, then or maybe when I was five. And the way my parents tell the story is like i just didn't want them and i've kind of always accepted that narrative as just what it was like oh yeah it was stubborn yeah exactly and so so but like it's kind of you're talking about you don't internalize that right kind of independence yeah until you actually you know establish it later in life and then you then you kind of have to like retroactively go back and apply that same like self-identity that you that you come of have to like retroactively go back and apply that same

like self-identity that you that you come to in your 30s or 40s whatever it is and then you have to essentially you know uh transcribe it to your past and it's a very jarring thing yeah i i do think that like one of the hardest things about coming to terms with yourself and with who you are and what you've gone through is that you have to acknowledge the fact that this kid that you were it's not different kid it's you experienced it that way right because when you're going through it there's all sorts of you're you're cultivating all sorts of defenses to prevent yourself from acknowledging that this is happening yeah right whether it's anger anger or dissociation or whatever it is.

And then if you are trying to reconnect with yourself, you have to go back and look at yourself as that kid and say, no, he was going through that. It wasn't this other thing that he had imagined. It was this. It was neglect. It was isolation. It was pain. It was neglect, it was isolation, it was pain,

it was agony. It's horrible to really, it's almost like this weird, almost narcissistic empathy experiment where I have to place myself into myself as a five-year-old or a six-year-old in these points of trauma and experience that feeling of horrible pain

and lack of control. I don't know if it's narcissism. No, it's not narcissistic. I mean, self-involved maybe, self-centered. But there's a judgment attached to that. And I'm not trying to be all new agey about it, but it's like self-involved, meaning in a literal sense, yes.

Okay, well, how about it's an experiment in time travel. It is. Yes, through, okay, you don't have to label it self-centered or self-aware, but it is an attempt to excavate your heart from the younger part of yourself that felt it being broken. Yeah, no, right. younger part of yourself that felt it being broken yeah no right i mean and and and you know i don't think like connecting with yourself or exploring yourself is inherently you know a self-involved or selfish no i don't mind it i spend it and i only meant narcissism in that that there you're literally looking at a reflection of yourself based on what you think you were going through

at that time so i wasn't using it in a clinical sense i think i was using it just in this like the exercise like the narcissus almost yeah you know only that it's only a sad kid that that's in the mirror looking back in the pond or whatever it is yeah no right but but like but even that even like uh it was very easy for me to categorize my childhood as sad, but it was a much more difficult phenomenon to feel that. Yeah, right, right, right. To let myself know what that sadness feels like. How'd you do it? A lot of therapy.

Really? Yeah. I was seeing a therapist regularly, and then we started going twice a week. How old were you when you went to a therapist? I started going when I was 13. Oh, really? really yeah but then it was kind of on and off after the divorce right after the divorce yeah pretty much like you need therapy that was that was one of the i think i yeah it's your problem right they're like you need therapy i was like uh you need therapy yeah yeah yeah um but yeah no i uh but but i would say only recently have i fully like

committed to it like the last few years where i was going regularly and then it upped twice a week. And then my therapist recommended doing it four times a week. You know, that's essentially psychoanalysis. Old school. Yeah, it's just, well, so it's interesting. And something happened over COVID that was kind of a revelation. Because of the hearing thing, I can't do the whole sit on the couch while the therapist is behind you because i can't if i can't see you i mean this is different i have headphones on right now but if i can't see your mouth it's very hard for me to hear what you're saying we experienced

this earlier you're trying to tell me which way to go yeah yeah i didn't know i couldn't hear what you're saying um so she's behind me i can't hear what she's saying or i'm stressed out you don't have hearing aids now i do oh i do but it's still it's not it's not perfect right um they're in there deep yeah they're yeah the new kind have you done any research on this no yeah no they're they're newish and they came out in like 2008 and i was a pretty early adopter i was by far the youngest person like i would go to the you know the audiologist it's me and people who like can't hold their heads up. Right. Was it like a miracle?

I had played with a different kind before, so it was maybe like more of a gradual slope up. But yeah, I mean, I couldn't get by. I couldn't do this. I couldn't do anything without him. I couldn't have lunch with friends. It's not even like I could do it. It would just be so fucking stressful.

And I would be working so hard. But you never learned, you never had to sign or do any of that stuff? No, because I kind of straddled worlds. Like, I faked it. Dude, I didn't wear a hearing aid until I was in my early 20s, like 2021. Really? Yeah. So you faked it for whose sake your parents i don't know that's the

thing i i just did it like it was just it i didn't want to acknowledge whatever that meant and i was never you know forced or encouraged or i mean encouraged that you know they suggested it they they were willing to do it but it was really up to me which i don't think it should have been but i it was never there was no programs. I was never linked with any sort of social workers who specialize in this stuff or speech pathologists or anything like that. I think part of the problem was, and this isn't even me patting myself on the back, I think I excelled in pretty much everything that I did just on a material level. My grades were always A's, and I played baseball,

and I was good at baseball. And so I think if I was getting Fs, they'd be like, what the fuck is going on? And then we have to diagnose something. But you sort of like, you double engaged to compensate probably, in a way.

Yeah. It's so funny to now think about what i was doing because at the time it was second nature i didn't think this was anything yeah this is just what you know i would have to sit but you wanted to be at least normal you knew that i did i did want to be yeah that is a very hard thing to say and think but it's it's absolutely true like it's it's hard in the sense that it's emotional yeah um i very badly did i didn't want to be different and I and I didn't want to be a burden right, you know like like Even saying like, you know what like like asking people to repeat what they said

I would feel like this and maybe it was all in my mind Yeah, there was just a resentment toward me for making them repeat what you they just fucking said, right? And so I didn't want to do that. And so I would fake it. I would act as if I heard it. I would. So you were constantly projecting what you thought people were thinking about you? Like, you know, like, I'm annoying if I say what?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they would because I never talked about it until maybe I was 18. Wow, that's a long time. So people didn't know. Yeah. So like if i said

what they thought i was either not paying attention so they would get annoyed on the on those grounds yeah but like you know nobody would my friends aren't like true assholes like if they knew and certainly as we've gotten older they they they look out for me in that way you know which i'm appreciative of but yeah it was that is a a major source of of all this shit like that whatever the level of disconnect and the fighting with myself and just even like this kind of uh unfortunate irony of like craving solitude and also hating it right because like i i i wanted to get away from people because they stressed me out because i had to be working 10 times as hard to try to ascertain what was going on.

And so I just wanted to get the fuck away. I felt relaxed when I was at home alone watching TV, playing video games, looking at porn on the internet, whatever the fuck it was, or even in my room just talking to myself. Because I think I may have said this on stage before, but you never mishear yourself. Your inner monologue says something. You're never like, what was that? Yeah, the problem is when you have two going. Oh, no.

Believe me. Yeah. You can get a bunch of voices out there. But I crave that kind of solitude just to give me some relief from the stress that came with being with people. But then at the same time, solitude is incredibly hard for me because I also crave connection. Well, that's like, it's a perfect recipe for standup. Well, it got me that.

Because you can hear yourself, you decide what's being said, people hear you. Right. And you have complete control over that thing. Right, right. Which I think is why I struggle with the sort of unilateral nature of it

because I'm looking for connection here and this is the closest I've come to it, but I think I realize that it isn't what I need it to be. Sure, but I think that what happens and what will happen as you get older is that you might get some more joy out of it if you figure out how to engage that part of your vulnerability. Yeah. And that certainly is what I hope to do. And then also, but also offstage and find a way to supplement, not supplement, but get the connection in life. Right, have a life.

And then the stand-up can be more of an extracurricular exploration of this thing rather than a need. Right, a need and also- You can share with people as opposed to try to get something from it. And not limited to the range of your uh emotional perception at this time like if you get out more and you build a life where your life becomes bigger or you let go of some things then you might bring that on stage and it broadens your perspective a million percent a million percent i think that the posture of of you know look at me versus i want to share this with you yes it it

can be potentially a game changer. And that's like, you know, something that I'm- You're waiting for it. I'm challenging myself to do it. No, like that's, you know. Yeah. Because obviously I don't think anyone wants to watch an artist, no matter what kind, musician, filmmaker, comic,

just repeat themselves and impersonate themselves. I think like if there's no growth happening, you know, then what the fuck is the point? I mean, I guess I have to acknowledge that like I feel very lucky that I didn't, I wasn't stressing during that time in terms of money. Oh yeah, but you were starting to say something you didn't finish about therapy and COVID.

Oh yeah, the happy accident of that was because I can't do the, you know, psychoanalysis, that kind of classic couch therapist behind the couch. The purpose of that is so you can kind do the, you know, psychoanalysis, that kind of classic couch therapist behind the couch. The purpose of that is so you can kind of free associate stream of consciousness and you're not, you're not burdened by the visual stimulation of the therapist reactions. You're looking into the ether, closing your eyes, whatever you're doing. I can't do that.

But over the phone, throw on headphones, all of a sudden I can. And so it was this weird thing where i i started doing therapy no zoom it was just over the phone right put on the headphones lie down on my own couch yeah close my eyes and i was like oh this is a completely different thing than talking to someone who's in a chair yeah and i felt like so liberated by it and then the repetition it's four times a week so you're doing it every mond through Thursday so basically every day so like you like do it and you're like

oh Jesus and you don't have any time to recover it's like a back to back in the NBA where it's like alright the next morning

you wake up you gotta fucking do that again so you're like already reeling from the thing before and that's the purpose is it keeps you open and you know

you're not able to zip it back up and then have to undo it for 45 minutes once a week and then zip it back up and then have to undo it for 45 minutes once a week and zip it back up so yeah it was it's exhausting like it's truly it's truly exhausting and so i but i found through that i was able to tap into some things that that felt new oh good that's good yeah and so okay so you do well in school and then where you go to college i went to university of ill Illinois for a couple of years.

I was an engineering major. Really? I was a good math and science. Yeah? Yeah. And it's funny. I went back home years ago, and I was digging through old stuff. And I was deciding, should I stay in school?

I kind of like comedy. Should I write? Blah, blah, blah. And I was looking for some kind of sign, and I found some old certificate in my like you know my drawer yeah when i was a kid and i found this certificate some test i took in high school like the standardized you know not not the sat but like something like that some some assessment thing and it was like you excelled in math science and writing i'm like well this is not fucking helpful huh well one of them was well it's just it was just like it was just like which you know is like, which, you know, is there,

am I better at one? Should I follow something? It's like, well, you could do either of these if you want. So you didn't finish? No, I dropped out a couple of times.

I had a rough go in college. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I took all these AP classes in high school and so I was like a sophomore when I went to college. Yeah.

Like, academically and like I was, I didn't know how to be a person yeah i couldn't hear anybody i was so lost yeah and so i just i didn't go to class i played mad and got high i discovered weed and that was kind of it but i then slowly i built myself up got did better in school by my first semester junior year i got all a's and then I dropped out yeah and I went back dropped out again then I moved back home

to taking classes at Deerfield yeah I was working at the Cheesecake Factory doing open mics and I was doing I was in school

up there at University of Illinois Chicago yeah and then it was too much I was like these three things I can't do

I can't work cheesecake I can't do cheesecake comedy and't work. I can't do cheesecake. Comedy. Comedy. And class. Yeah, the three Cs. And so I was like, I got to pick two.

And so I was like, well, I can't not work. So I dropped out of school. That was the last time. And then just started doing open mics and moved to the city. And then I started wearing hearing aids. And that was like kind of when this part of my life started. And so when was that? 2008. Really? 2008.

Really? Yeah. Now, who do you see as your generation of guys? Because I've never seen you before. I don't know why. But you ended up in New York. No, we've seen each other. I did a guest spot for you, I want to say, 10 years ago at Bloomington, Indiana.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. I like that room. Yeah, it's a good room. Jared wanted you to see me. Bloomington, Indiana. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I like that room. Yeah, it's a good room. Jared wanted you to see me. And I think I remember what he said you said. I think you watched me.

Yeah. And then you went back into the green room. You're like, somebody's listening. Or something like that. And then I think I saw you in Chicago. You saw me at the main stage? Those were always pretty fun shows. Main stage, yeah.

Somebody asked you a question that I thought was awesome. This woman shouted out, she's like, when are you going to enjoy your success? Yeah. That's a hard heckle. That's a hard heckle. There's no quip for that. I like that you remember the heckle, but not my I think you kind of just I think you kind of just

I'm trying, I am I don't think you had a haymaker for that No, of course not I don't have a haymaker for anything You got them in there, they're in there Yeah, I guess so, but it usually It depends on the moment I can't think of, I don't have

A list of things that I know Or use as retorts I hate crowd work so much I hate it I absolutely hate it Like, I can't think of, like, I don't have, like, a list of things that I know or use as retorts. I hate crowd work so much. Do you? I hate it. I absolutely hate it. I don't like it because, like, if you really, like, for someone like me, because I do like to communicate.

And I can get, and over the years I've gotten pretty open, you know. So, like, there are moments where I'm like, sure, get me real. Let's get off of this. You know, what do you want? I'll engage. Well, let's do it. But the problem with it is that tone, conversational me, which is funny, going back into the act. Then you're kind of fighting

with yourself. If you have real good crowd work, you can't go back. Well, it's just a different thing. It's a joke where everyone is living the premise. And then for you to pull some other thing. So I was thinking about this. We were just living in the premise.

You were just adding the punchline. Well, what I do when I do it is I go like, okay, can we go back to the act? Can we just go back to the thing? Yeah, can I put the needle back on the record? I have the prepared stuff. Yeah. It's very good. Yeah, it's just a different vibe.

I don't mind it, though. I just feel like the things that can excite a crowd in crowd work are often- Dumb. Yeah, well, it's just like doesn't take a lot. Yeah. It's a specific thing. You're so excited that you're in the moment. Yeah, you know what you can say.

Yeah. And I often will just not say it. And I'm like, this, I know what, you know, because I've done it when I was middling, whatever, like when I was coming up and you just got to get, you got to survive in a way like, oh yeah, they would laugh at the dumbest fucking thing. Oh yeah, yeah. Because it happened here. Yeah.

I'm not saying they're dumb for laughing. I think they're witnessing something that's never going to happen again. Or just, you know, it's exciting because they don't know. They know that you don't know necessarily. And then you watch crowd work comics. Like there's a couple around just do the same, you know, at least 80% of the same. Yeah, crowd work is fake. Yeah, a lot of it.

A lot of it. Like this, it's like we're already pretending this is off the cuff and we know it's not. And you're doing like an art form on top of that that is claiming to be like, no, really off the cuff, that's also fake. Right. I like doing, I just like talking sometimes. Because like so many of my fans are used to so many different facets of me that I have the freedom to do it.

Like, you know, if they really engage me with a question, like, you know, like, how are your cats? Or did you get that thing looked at on your head? Well, I would imagine, I mean, it has to be the case that every single person coming to see you has listened to you talk more than they've listened

to you do stand-up. Maybe. Like, I get, like, there's all different places they come from now. You know,

from like the Globe. Some people like don't know anything about the podcast. Oh, sure, sure, sure.

It's weird. You know, like, I never know when someone goes, I really like your show. I'm like, well,

which one? What? You can't be that guy. No, but, well, you're the guy in the classic joke, the guy at the comic at the bar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Early show, early show.

Yeah, well, how do you know that joke? I mean, what's your version? Oh, like comic does shows on, you know, finishes Friday or Saturday, goes to the bar next door, this girl's like, oh, you're hitting on him, you're so funny yeah which show which show

yeah you see earlier this show yeah yeah yeah that's it yeah and that's like that's but that's this is the slightly more successful

version of that it's like I like your show the TV or the radio yeah yeah yeah the special we always want to take it away from them you know it's sort of like

oh that yeah I don't know right right it's like oh no you shouldn't like that one you idiot you gotta want to take it away from them. You know, it's sort of like, oh, that. Right. Right. It's like, oh, no, you shouldn't like that one, you idiot. You got to listen to the other thing. Yeah. This episode of this thing.

Yeah. I've become very gracious as the years have gone by, you know. Yeah. I feel like you should. I feel like. Yeah. Don't take their experience away from them. I feel like you've done well.

Yeah. I've done all right. I have. Like, what else do you want? I'm happy. The garden? Get out of here. The garden? Yeah. Like, what do you. No, no, I can't do that. Yeah, I was saying you what do you want the happy garden get out of here the garden yeah like what no no i can't do you're saying what do you want i have no idea what to do with that you know i'm fine i you know i really am you know the

happiness element is you know what you talk oh you didn't really address like i've addressed happiness you addressed love you go do a deeper source in the special what is love really um yeah i'm okay man you know i'm okay i there's a lot of things that you know seek resolution in the special. What is love, really? Yeah, I'm okay, man. You know, I'm okay. There's a lot of things that, you know, seek resolution. You know, I don't know, you know, where I stand in, you know, in moving forward with relationships and I don't, but I have made conscious efforts now to do things that I've always wanted to do without fear, you know.

That's good. And, you know, try to enjoy things and at least acknowledge, you know, what I do enjoy and allow it as opposed to just be compulsive about behavior, you know. Well, do you feel, do you find that that compulsion influences the relationship outcomes as well? Like the compulsion can be, it doesn't have to be like a behavior, it can be a mode of thought. Sure. Like it could be like, it's really comfortable sometimes

for me to attach myself to a more, you know, a fantasy or a type of dynamic that's exciting. Yeah. But obviously has no legs and obviously is doomed and it's obviously only going to end in nothing or hurt me or hurt them.

You know, it's like it, but there's something that I compulsively will follow about that because it just speaks to me so clearly. Yeah, but you start to know better. No, right. I think I'm getting that point. But as someone, you know, again, you're-

I just don't know like how to- Well, yeah, well, that kind of stuff. Like, you know, how many times can you make that mistake? Like, you know, because like as you get older too, you know, more so than not, you're not going to walk away from it. You know, well, sometimes if you're lucky and the other person is compulsive too and they're kind of like, what was that? I don't know, but we're good. Yeah. And you can walk away kind of free.

But depending on someone else's expectation, someone's going to get hurt and it's horrible. How many times can you heartbreak? How many times can you hurt people? How many times can you hurt yourself? I don't want to do it. I don't want to break up ever again. I don't want to do it. Because it's never – I've never broken up with someone and it's been like one of those,

yeah, we see each other around and we just fell out of love. For me it's like, you cannot be anywhere. I am. Yeah, no. And I don't want that. And I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying I don't want to get involved in something that has that type of tenor where those are the stakes. I know, but we're not normal.

I'm not saying we're broken. But emotionally, when you talk about wiring, if your heart is looking for what you come from, then you're going to be in trouble. But that's the compulsion is to give in to that or to maybe take a step back from that and go wait a minute okay i have this like idea of dating in new york for example where it's you know my friends of mine the friends of mine that are that are single yeah and then i have like the family friends you know the people who have they're married they're having their second kids yeah that's that's my world showbiz single and like regular people yeah doing the. Nice. Good for you to have friends. Yeah.

You know, I do. Okay. A little side note. The friends of mine that have kids, seeing them raise children has been instrumental in me realizing

the deprivation I experienced as a child. Because I'm like, oh, I've never seen this loving. I mean, there's different variations

of it they're not all the same but like they're all very loving the relationships are for the most part very good like they belong together they care about each other they respect each other yeah there's a lot of independence in the sense that like they don't need anything from their children they're able to facilitate they're able to be there they're able to facilitate their children's you know you know uh coming into themselves yeah without intruding or neglecting right and or feeling like they're fucking up somehow yeah or or setting up a dynamic where the kid is meant to like make the parent feel better about themselves sure the appendage yeah yeah you know you're just a your parents appendage the narcissistic the narcissistic parents just make you an arm yeah like like they can't need you to

make them feel good about themselves so so i see that and it's been pretty instrumental in me you know realizing things about myself the the special is dedicated to at the very last card is dedicated to you know it's a 10 different names and those are all my friends kids those are all my friends and one of my cousins kids kids. Yeah. Because I feel like they have truly shown me like, you know, what it could have been or what it should be or so on and so forth. So, yeah, that was a slight side note. But the single show busy art scene friends in New York, there is this kind of thing where we're all like fucked up in a similar way, especially, you know, actors, comics, musicians, directors, performers, people that need to

be showcased in some kind of way. I do think it comes from, you know, like, or at least it goes hand in hand with this idea of like longing for someone to, to reach back or something like that, or chasing the thing that is unavailable, so on and so forth. And so I have this image in my mind of dating in new york which is like everyone is is chasing after someone who's chasing after someone else who's chasing after someone else and it just goes on like that this kind of recursive loop of people reaching out for someone who doesn't give them the time of day and i was like if what if we all just turned around and there's this person who's reaching for

you who is available who doesn't make it hard there's no fucking games there's no oh are they gonna text back they just do it and they like you but on merit not just because you're anyone but because they get to know you and it's like that feels so

fundamentally different from what I'm used to sure but that's like it's like, that feels so fundamentally different from what I'm used to. Sure. But that's like, it's romantic and I like it, you know. Where's the flaw? There's no flaw in wanting that. But like, my experience has been, you have to then be comfortable with that other thing not being satisfied. And what that's going to do. What does that do?

Yeah. No, i do wonder i'm like can can we have this but then also let me just give me like three days out of the month don't ask questions they're not going to be infidelity necessarily it's just going to be something here's the You know, once you really wrap your brain around honest self-acceptance, you know, and get your needs in order, you can ask for whatever the fuck you want. Right. Yeah. It's a new world. And maybe you can get it.

But like, you know, if you're constantly second guessing yourself or have that shitty voice in your head, you're going to make all these assumptions, you know, moral judgments or judgments about yourself in relation to them or what they're thinking, that there's no way you can be like, well, look, I'm going to fuck someone else once a month. What are you going to do? You know, like after a certain age, if you've got no kids and no real responsibilities, you don't owe anybody anything. What does it hurt to be that honest to see if you can do it?

Right. But is there something alienating about that? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But wait, but the thing is, it may be. Right, but is there something alienating about that? Of course, well, maybe. Yeah, but wait, but the thing is, it may be alienating, but maybe not. I mean, you know, like if you're really talking about like sustaining something with somebody that, you know, who the fuck knows? I just know that I'm so fucking insecure on some level that I'm just going to do their thinking for them, and I'm going to do their judging of me for them, and I'm going to judge myself for them.

Half the conversations I'm in with them, I'm going to do their judging of me for them and I'm going to judge myself for them half the conversations I'm in with them I'm making up you know like you know I'll jump right into the middle right something that I'm having in my head with them and they're like what are you talking about like oh yeah right yeah you know you know what you did you know what you exactly that's exactly what you were thinking yeah exactly yeah so what once you get that out of the way you know they and really own yourself and say, look, this is the way I am. Once you like really are, you can be honest with yourself and self-accepting and you have nothing to lose by being honest with the people that you want to be involved with, then there's a certain freedom in that. But it takes a lot to get there, right? Yeah.

But I also want to make sure that my honesty isn't just. Recognized? Yeah. Well, exactly. It's not just me like repurposing, you know, impulse as honesty. Because, like, this is, and this goes back to. What do you mean impulse? Well, just like.

Defensiveness? No, but like, you know, like, yeah, I want to fuck someone or something. Like, that's an impulse. And so to be like, well, that's just me. I got to do it. Like, well, maybe that was a bad example. Fine, or whatever it is. Or here's a good example.

I'm going to shut down. Well, here's a good example. Like, you to shut down. Well, here's a good example. I've had a rough go of it. My girlfriend died a year and a half ago or whatever. And it was the beginning of something great and it didn't happen because she got sick and died. And I never really had any very good relationships in

my whole life. Two marriages, they didn't work out. And I was a monster in a lot of them for probably the same reasons you've been a monster insecure yelling whatever jealous whatever i don't know if i've been a monster oh i've been a monster yeah i'm sorry to project no it's a but uh the territory sure um but you know like now like i know where i'm at and i've seen something horrible and i felt you know like I didn't ever want to break up with anybody again either. And then somebody dies or whatever. That's horrible.

It's horrible. So, but like now in this situation I'm in now where it's sort of like, I don't know what I've got in me and I don't know if I can handle this or that. But like, you know, this is where I'm at. You know, I am, you know, I'm heartbroken. I'm very, you know, wary of moving forward with something profoundly intimate but i want to hang out right but i don't want you to sweep over ever right is that okay with you yeah it's the uh it reminds me of a jason isbell line oh yeah uh heart heart like a rebuild part i don't know how much it's got left sure yeah yeah but like but you know if like if i'm trying to honor myself

i mean outside of the like i'm gonna fuck somebody you know you know like you know not the testing thing but just sort of this is what i can handle and you know, like, you know, not the testing thing, but just sort of, this is what I can handle and you know, if you're okay with it, we can move forward. If you're not,

I can't do it. Well, you could also need just time to heal. Yeah, of course. That's a pretty traumatic thing. Oh,

it's horrible. But, but you, you still want to, you know, have company and do stuff. Sure.

And on that level, it's like this, well, stating what you're capable of is honesty. It's like, this is what I have room for. Right.

And, you know, obviously, just because you're not ready, just because one isn't ready for the thing, capital T, doesn't mean that they can't interact with people. But I think that's a good place to start with what we're talking about. Right? Sure. But, okay, so there's a difference between capacity, emotional capacity at this time or whatever, and, like, unpleasant kind of just, like, instincts that you might have. Just to, you know, like, for example, if your instinct is to diminish them in an argument, like, that can't be honesty. No, it's not.

That's what I meant by repurposing impulse as honesty one thing i know about being annihilated you know emotionally and and uh and mentally with with reality is that like a lot of that acting out bullshit the stuff that you do instinctively to avoid whatever you know yourself right exactly exactly you know that that stuff starts to tire out i agree and and this kind of uh dovetails in my opinion to some of the stuff you're talking about in comedy i feel like a lot of impulse is being branded as honesty in comedy where it's like sure acting out yeah and and being petulant and being like well this is like like i think there's a difference between

like like honesty doesn't mean literally saying everything you think at every time. That's not honesty to me because, like, that's just shaming. Right, because, like, someone once said to me at an AA meeting, it was genius because I told my, like, I shared something about telling somebody something that I thought I was really working a good program because I was being so honest. And this guy comes up to me and goes, don't use honesty as a weapon. Right. That's what you said earlier. Yeah. Don't weaponize it.

But that's real, man. You know. Yeah. No, it is. It's like I'm just being honest. Yeah, man. And it's preemptive. That is an honest.

And I think that's kind of what I start to talk about as well. Yeah. I start to think about. Yeah. Which is like this idea of honesty as saying what you think versus addressing how you feel. Those are two different kinds of honesty. And I think one is much harder and truer. Right.

And the other one is like, it's like actually stifling that. Yeah. Like, like if you said something to me, it made me upset. It made me defensive. And I said something about you that was technically true.

It's like, well, I'm just being, I'm just being honest. But what would be, I think more honest is like, I'm feeling hurt by what you just said and and maybe that's not as cool and maybe that's you know but that is the honest statement what's interesting about doing the kind of comedy that you do or that i do is that you know so much of it is is you know that's that's

what's under the surface of it, is that you're talking. Like lately I've been having this experience where I know the tone I'm talking in and the things I'm saying. Like I'm laughing, but it's so close to crying. Oh, yeah. And I don't mind it, but I'm wondering like, well, should I just be, is this okay? Is this like, what does this mean?

Like so much of that posturing is really about, would someone just love me? Would somebody? I defy you. Well, the defying is the kind of, that's what's driving it away. I know, but emotionally, you know it's just a cry for help.

Well, so it's funny because I used to do shows and there would be people who would come up after me or message me or whatever and say, I want to give you a hug. i want to give you a hug and i was always like i was like oh they don't get it yeah no they don't get it no they see it they get it like they got it more than the people who were like laughing and and and saying like oh so funny and is this

real like those people who are like i want to hug you they get it because they they they're they're picking up the tenor that you're talking about. Yeah, that's not great. Um, I don't know. I think, I don't, I don't. It makes me feel very vulnerable, not intentionally. Whereas I wish I could just, you know, speak to that as opposed to exude that.

But that's the vulnerable thing is that you don't have control over it. Is that, is that, you know, is it despite your efforts to control it, to dictate the terms, they're getting something that you can't have control over it is that is that you know is it despite your efforts to control it to dictate the terms they're getting something that you can't control and that is vulnerability no i know that but but like why not be in that why i know i get the leaking i think you said that in the special but the but but why not you know not leak why not just be in it why be the vessel well but then that's just trying to control the leak.

I guess. You know what I mean? I'm not trying to get too abstract, but like it, what you're saying, the leak is inherent in the vulnerability. It's like, you're going to be, in order to be vulnerable, you have to be willing to be communicating something that you might not be aware you're communicating. No, but, but yeah, but I mean, but you're not, what you're, what you're communicating is this, this attempt at hiding your vulnerability. Because if somebody said, if half the audience is laughing and then three people are like, you okay? Oh, you're saying why not just forget the facade and yeah, I'm not okay. Well, but that's kind of, I mean, I do kind of, you know.

Yeah, do that at the end, yeah. Or at least point to what that would sure be and i think that like it is tough because you are trying to put on a show sure like you you're not you're not a uh you know a lunatic but there's people that put on shows dude there's like there are people in our business who do it because they love the love. Right. And those kind of people who go up there and sing a song, do a little dance, or just embrace something beautiful and nonsensical, they're living in it.

And they're very entertaining. And people leave going like, that was so fun. Right. Yeah, but who knows what the mechanics of that are? Okay. You know what I mean? Sure. I don't know what makes them tick.

No, I don't either. They could get backstage and jerk off into a cup and throw it against the wall and drink a half gallon of booze. I know, probably. No, right. I've known people like that. Yeah, me too. Where it's just like-

You're a mess. You're a liar. Well, it's not they're a mess. It's just like, oh, there's nowhere to put that anywhere else. Yeah. So who are your guys that you came up with? Do I know them? Did you come up, you're the one behind Pete Holmes and Hannibal and that crew come out?

Yeah, so Hannibal was there for like a year when I started. So we overlapped for a little bit of time. Then he moved to New York. A lot of the people, Beth Stelling came up with me in Chicago. She's out here, right? She's out here. Cameron Esposito was there. Oh yeah.

And I'm trying to think of, yeah, who moved out. But what rooms did you come up in? Did you do mainstream rooms or most of those alt ones? I helped start a room called Comedians You Should Know in Chicago, which still exists. I mean, I have- But wasn't there a place called The Lodge or something? Lincoln Lodge. Yeah, I did that.

I would kind of do everything, but I was never anyone's person. But never Zany's? I did Zany's. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So then what brings you to New York? You just decide to go? You hit a ceiling in Chicago.

I came up at a time where you were starting to get a little bit of industry, where Montreal would come there. They had a ceiling in Chicago. I mean, you know, I came up at a time where, you know, we were starting to get a little bit of industry where Montreal would come there. They've had like JFL Chicago for a couple of years. And so people were starting to pay attention. And I think once the Lakeshore went under, which was April of 2010, the Laugh Factory bought the space, gutted it, changed everything, made it a Laugh Factory. And that kind of brought with it a little bit of a commercial viability to Chicago in both good and bad ways. But I went in there once.

I never worked there. It seemed weird. Structurally weird. It's weird. It's different than the one. I don't work at Laugh Factory. Yeah. What are you, a store guy?

I'm pretty much all store when I'm here. All store all the time. Yes. But in terms of like, I never felt like I had in Chicago I did, I had some, I had some guys that we kind of came up with, that we kind of came up together, but a lot of them are still there. And so I never felt part of a crew or anything like that. And did you, you got, you were, did you write at SNL?

Yeah, for a year. How was that? Not good. Does anyone ever say, it was awesome. Yeah, the ones that were treated well. Or the ones that are still there. Sure. No one's there for one year. It was like, it was sick. No, the ones that were treated well. Or the ones that are still there. Sure. No one's there for one year.

It was like, it was sick. No, one year usually means it was not good. Well, it's just, of course. It's like, yeah. I wrote for a weekend update. It was the year of the election, the 2016 election. You're writing for Che? Yeah.

Yeah? Yeah. I got maybe four jokes on the entire season. Oh. And you just sat there beating yourself up? No, I kind of didn't. You know what's weird? It's like it wasn't like a lifelong dream of mine.

I didn't even apply. I got asked to do it. By who? By Che. Oh. And so I didn't. Is he a Chicago guy? No.

No, Che's not. Che's New York. Oh, yeah. Che grew up like Lower East Side. Yeah, yeah. Or New Jersey. Yeah, exactly. But so it wasn't like their, I didn't play any, you know, let me stay here game.

Yeah. You know, everyone dressed up, not to sound like, but like everyone dressed up on Saturday. We'd wear like a suit on show night. I'm like, I'm not gonna, I'm not wearing a suit. I'm not even on, no one sees me. I'm in the writer's room, I'm in the office, who cares? Yeah. So I would wear what I'm wearing now

I don't dress like a schlub but like you know I'm not so that kind of helped you know like I don't know it was just stuff like that where I was just like

I'm not this isn't I'm not like giddy to be here so was this stand up's always been the thing yeah stand up's always been the thing

and that's something that is on it's own kind of uncommon so right now the push is do you you'd like to have a draw um yeah more so than now just a freedom to do things kind of on my own like i don't want to

be reliant on anyone but i don't have uh fantasies of fame or massive anything. But just, but no, but like, like for me, like I have, you know, I can sell some tickets now and people know me.

Yeah. Not, you know, enough, you know, I can, I can sell out the Vic, you know,

maybe, and maybe do two shows. But, That's great. Yeah, that's exactly where I need to be. And I don't like, like this tour I'm about to do,

I'm like, I don't want to do rooms over 800 people. Yeah, it probably starts to feel almost disconnected. No, I don't like this tour I'm about to do. I'm like, I don't want to do rooms over 800 people. Yeah, it probably starts to feel almost disconnected. No, it's just like you have to change your tone. You have to change your timing. Yeah. I did an arena once.

I opened for Aziz, and it felt like it was completely disconnected from people. Sure. You waited for a wave of laughter to hit you from the back. Yeah. Well, it's something you're sort of like, okay, I did that. Yeah, exactly. And then you start to realize like, well, these guys can do it because you make a fucking fortune. Oh, sure.

It's like it doesn't – like I'm too hard on myself to be able to be like, you know, like I'm just going to do this weird sort of stifled version of me for this type of – fortunately, that complaint is going to fall on deaf ears. this weird sort of stifled version of me for this type of story. Fortunately, that complaint is going to fall on deaf ears. No one's offering me an arena. But you know what I mean? But you also like, I mean, I do think what you said something earlier, like the thing kind of chooses you.

And I think that's true about the path too. It's like, if you did an arena, it would almost be weird. Well, I did a couple of those oddball shows. Right. No, no, I'm saying if it was like Mark Maron at the Madison Square Garden, it's like, what is happening in the world now? Yeah, that Mark Maron's at the... Well, it's just like, is everyone this now?

That's crazy. That's frightening. If that many people... No, it's not there yet. Everyone's just a comic now. No, right, right. That was my kind of like inside dystopian projection. It was like every comedy show is going to be like a comic performing for people who are there the next night or whatever.

Well, that's sort of how it starts now. Yeah. I mean, that whole world of bringer shows was not around when I was younger. I don't know. So to answer your question, I mean, like I don't know so to answer your question I mean like I you know I'm very project oriented

like I think in terms of projects yeah you seem to get things done well it's just like I have you know every hour I've put out it's very much

that structure like I'm building this hour and I think I've gotten more and more cohesive as time has gone on yeah but you know

do the hour find a way to film it that i think is is interesting and record it put it out promote it as much as possible move on disappear like i don't i'm not like a personality commenter huh but do the comedy yeah yeah oh yeah work and go back to work and so like you know the next project i have an idea for something and so it's a matter of just like anything that can help me facilitate the kinds of things I want to do. I don't need to be in a Marvel movie. I don't need to be, you know, like. Sure, yeah.

I like to do a little bit of the acting. If I can. How has that been? It's good, you know, because like, you know, it's something, it was a dream, you know, of mine to act. It was? Yeah, I mean, at some point, you know,

I studied a little bit of theater, but I mean, I wasn't always a comic. But, you know, when I was in college, you know, I did a little bit of it. And I thought I could do always a comic. But when I was in college, I did a little bit of it. And I thought I could do it. So after I did my own show, I kind of learned how to, I failed my way through. Was that your first kind of? Yeah.

But I knew also from knowing other comics that had shows that the first couple seasons might be a little choppy because you don't know how to be in that world. Yeah, you could be you, but not you on cue in this way. But sort of challenging myself to do things. Acting's tedious and it's not as satisfying because you get a lot of waiting around. I mean, I don't know, maybe a play is different,

but, you know, the last couple of times I've done it, I challenged myself and, you know, to see if I could bring something. And yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's another outlet for sure. You do music too. Yeah, I've been trying to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I play, but like, it was really a kind of a solitary thing, but now I'm gonna, and now I take it out and do it in front of people. Yeah, you take it on the road. I just go to Argo. Yeah, that's the road. And I put a couple guys together.

Yeah, it's 25 minutes, Ellen. I gotta put the thing in the car and bring it over there. Yeah, it's the road. So what happened with the last special you know, that, you know, made you want to direct your own special this time? So the last special was directed by Gerard Carmichael. Yeah.

And he and I were working pretty closely at the time. Yeah. And we shot it. This is before COVID. Yeah. We shot it without an audience. That sounds crazy to me. Yeah.

It was a combination. So that was Gerard's idea. And I was excited by the radical nature of it. My concern was that I wouldn't necessarily, I didn't know how it was going to marry itself to the content. You know, like I was still thinking about how it would work as a piece and um that kind of uh cohesion never those discussions never really happened and so it just kind of happened um and we shot it and it got a lot of attention in press and whatnot it became like a focal point of discussion i mean obviously in our little world

in press and whatnot it became like a focal point of discussion i mean obviously in our little world and it's very people had very polarizing opinions about it and some people thought it was you know a revelation some people are like this is the literal worst fucking thing i've ever seen in my life fuck this because fuck this guy and i don't mind people feeling that way about my stuff yeah someone's like fuck this guy yeah i stand in it i'm like okay i can i can live with that but this did not that special did not feel like you know a comedy special you only put it on the comic i mean people started talking about directors of a comedy special probably five years ago i know well it's like i my my late girlfriend directed my last two she was a a director, film director. Okay. And,

uh, you know, there, I mean, we made choices around certain things because it's like everyone kind of comes upon the revelation that like, you can't really reinvent the special that much. There, there is a notion to it that,

you know, like what I realized and what she realized was that, you know, I'm best in an intimate situation so she had to figure out how to shoot close and and and get those type of shots well either through a crane or actually you know coming on stage you know at certain points right but what I knew is like I just don't want to see the audience I want them to be there but I you know never cut away to them yeah well that that was a big move that happened, you know, probably reactionary to the 90s

where it was like all fucking audience cut away. Well, they used them to- To edit. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, people don't see it. You see it like, oh, it's funny. I mean, those people probably aren't even laughing at that.

At the joke, sure. Yeah, right. Absolutely. The irony is that taking away the audience to let the word speak for themselves, literally nobody talked about what I said in the special. It was all about the fact that there was no audience, both good and bad. And I didn't,

I didn't like getting any type of attention, positive or negative that didn't feel like I earned it. But the thing about the audience is that like, you know, they, you know, if you're sitting at home alone, the idea is like,

you know, you're not part of that audience, but, but the audience dictates your timing sure so so that experience is going to translate to someone watching it themselves right right no it dug in it was experimental and i i dig that like i'm into the experimental nature of it and i you know i was excited by the radical idea um it just it felt like two people's visions together as opposed to like a right unified marriage of what was that one called uh self-title drew michael and this new one you directed yeah so that was so i directed it because i didn't want to go through this

experience again where i didn't feel like positive or negative. I earned the response. But the funny thing about this one, why is it called Red, Blue, what is it? Red, Blue, Green. Why? I mean, you know. What, am I missing something? I think I get cagey about explaining what things mean. What's the title?

Red, Blue, Green. That's it? Yeah. All right. That's the name of it, Drew Michael, Red, Blue, Green. Right, but? Red, Blue, Green. That's it? Yeah. All right. That's the name of it. Drew Michael, Red, Blue, Green. Right, but why Red, Blue, Green? Well, but now I have to explain. I don't want to explain. Whatever you think. But you know why? I mean, I have, yeah. I mean, like, you know, you have choices that you make, but. But it's not revealed in the special. I'm not missing something. No, it's an interpretive thing that I feel weird spelling it out. Okay.

You know what I mean? Fine. I'm not trying to be closed off. No, whatever you want to do, bud. But the way that thing is shot, it is pretty traditional until it isn't. Yeah. There's a couple of close-ups that were effective in a way that I thought there was an interesting bit of camera work.

But ultimately, the joke is the reveal on some level. But it is presented as a classic comedy special. For sure. And, I mean, the thing that I wanted to do was lean into that. Like you say, there's only so many places you can put six cameras or five cameras, whatever it is. And but lean into aesthetic, lean into lighting, lean into the set design, so on and so forth and create an atmosphere. And, you know, we draw, we drew from a couple of different, you know, lookbook inspirations and tried to create a a mood that just felt you know obviously the drive uh in comedy specials lately has been uh it's become more cinematic

like you know i think it five years ago someone was like hey what if this shit looked good and it was like a radical act uh-huh it was like hey what if we like all these cameras we have what if we didn't just throw them on tripods and light this shit like a game show what if we like thought about this and we're conscious about it and you know and people like um you know i mean i don't know i don't know but someone like bo burnham was pretty instrumental in in doing that yeah you know both his own specials and gerard's special yeah uh with the tiered with the balconies, the Gerard special? Yeah, the eight. But like, just like, it was a new way to do it.

No, I get it. I get it. Yeah, you know, it was in the round, so that's not new. I mean, you know, a million people have done the round, but like, just the way it was shot, it's like you haven't seen anything like that before. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think that's good.

I do think it should all service the stand-up, though. But I mean... Of course. You don't want the aesthetic to overtake the content. Yeah, well, it's tricky. It is tricky. But my intention was definitely to lean into the tradition of it and lean into the classic nature of it

because, you know, I'm, like you say, like the kind of comedy I'm doing, it's not... I'm cut from a classic cloth. It's kind of old school. it's you know it's new in the sense that like i hopefully have new things to say but it's you know it's you can trace it back yeah you're doing stand-up yeah or you know yeah you would you would club stand you would call that stand-up sure well good um i enjoyed it and uh it's good talking to you you feel good like yeah i think so everything work out um you

know i think we made some headway good me too i appreciate you having me yeah thanks for doing it all right well that's that i hope that wasn't too awkward or weird his special drew michael red blue Green is now streaming on HBO Max. And now I'm going to play this Les Paul for you. Muddy. Muddy. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda.

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