WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1299 - Peter Dinklage

Episode Date: January 24, 2022

Peter Dinklage spent a good portion of his life trying to come to terms with ambition. It's something he's had an adversarial relationship with, going back to the days when he started a theater company that mounted no productions. But Peter tells Marc how he got more comfortable with having an acting career and how he learned to embrace mainstream success, whether it was from his star turn in The Station Agent or his work on Game of Thones or his latest film, the new adaptation of Cyrano. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All right, let's do this. How you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i am uh mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how are you doing i'm getting through it those of you who know know know I've got the COVID. I'm about a week in, a week into it. And fortunately, I'm very grateful. It's been a mild but annoying experience. It's not like anything I've had, I don't think, in my body before. It's similar, but there's some weirdness going on in my head. I've not had a temperature.

I have not had aches or pains. I have not had night sweats. I've not had trouble breathing. I'm very fortunate in all that. And I will thank the vaccine for those benefits of having this and not being too horribly compromised, though I am going crazy. I guess I'm going to do a straight up 10 day lockdown quarantine for myself. I'm already what? So today's Sunday. I'm going to test this morning being Monday. We'll see how that goes. I do want to try to make my shows to this weekend, but I can't really do that unless I get a negative test.

So it's very it's stressful for me because I don't want to, the timing of this is not appropriate. I'm mad that I got it and I can't quite shake that anger. Even though millions of people have gotten it, triple vaxxed people, vaxxed people, I still somehow think it picked me.

And that's just the way my fucking brain works. I'm learning a lot about my brain over this weird week of uh of true quarantine uh let me get into this for a second peter dinklage is here on the show and uh most of you i don't know everyone knows him he's in this new uh cyrano movie which he did as a stage musical that was written and directed by his wife, Erica Schmidt. And he's here to talk about that and other things. Yeah, I've been busy during this quarantine. I've been building things.

I put a smoker together. Some company sent me a smoker. It's pressuring me. Oklahoma Joe sent me a smoker so it's pressuring me oklahoma joe sent me a bronco i mean they didn't pay for that plug but i'm excited about it they asked me if i wanted one i said yeah but now i'm gonna have to up my game no more traeger well i have the traeger to do that traeger cooking that's just a pellet grill it's basically a convection oven run on smoke from wood pellets that you don't have to manage. Really, it's got a temperature. It's hooked up to the Wi-Fi. This fucking smoker is a real smoker. So now I've got to figure out how to do that. I've got to season the thing with

coals and I got to figure out how to work those vents and do that thing. I don't know what I'm going to start with. I don't know what I'm going to start with. I don't know when I'm going to start. I can't leave the house. So it's not immediately. But I'm excited about it. I put it all together calmly, focused. Yes, I did it.

I also watched both versions of West Side Story. I watched the new West Side Story because I got a screener of it. And it's spectacular. and i don't remember the old one when i watched the new one i knew a lot of the songs just because they're kind of in your genetic uh makeup somehow if you lived a certain life i don't know which life it is but i i would say that a lot of people who listen to this probably know at least four or five of the songs from west side story without remembering whether or not they actually saw the movie. I believe I saw it when I was a young kid, but the new one's just great.

And I watched them. Tony Kushner brought to it as the writer, reworking that story or adding to the story or deepening the story by infusing a class element into it and also a race element into it that was sort of broader and deeper than the one that was in the original. And obviously in the new one, no brown face. But one of the interesting decisions, I guess, I don't know who made it, was that a lot of the new one is actually in Spanish and there's no subtitles. So deal with it, white people. But Kushner's script is outstanding. And the way Spielberg shot it was beyond masterful. Because it's no easy trick to do a musical.

And the original one was so spectacular. Fucking colors. Anyways anyways highly recommend it these are my uh covid quarantine movie reviews i still i got through about 15 14 minutes of the new macbeth uh i'll go back but i i just i can't focus man i can't follow it mean, I get what's happening in the story, but I'm missing most of it because I'm just lost. And that's just me. And no matter how many of you tell me I got to hang in there, I don't know. Denzel seems great in the first 10 minutes.

That's my review of Macbeth. Look, if Cohen wants to come on, who is it, Ethan or Joel? Joelel if he wants to come on i'll watch the whole thing and i'll memorize part of it if that cohen brother wants to come on talk about it or his uh his partner francis mcdormand yeah i i'll i'll, I'll memorize it. I'll memorize parts of it. I'll memorize the speech, right? The famous speech.

There's got to be one. I'll memorize it. And I'll assess it deeply. So I didn't get through that one. I've been practicing guitar. I've been cooking and monitoring my health, taking my temperature, checking my oxygen. I've had no fever. I've had no aches. I've had no pains. But the dreams have been crazy.

I woke up in a panic a couple of times. I'm just going to bed early and I usually wake up around three or four and it takes me about a half hour, 45 minutes to get to sleep, just spiraling. And then I started thinking about like I was just in a dream and I woke up in a panic because I couldn't, you know, I didn't think I could save somebody from underwater. And, you know, I was screaming, but it was underwater. And then I realized that, you know, when you scream or talk in a dream out into the real world, it's just, it's muted and garbled and it doesn't make sense. And you feel like you're being held back when you

realize that when you wake up to the sound of your own voice crying for help in a dream it's just this horrible and it's uh it's a horrible feeling it was horrible what was going on the dream but then realizing that there was no one in the room anyways that was going to help me. But then waking up to that, to that noise and realizing that Sammy and Buster, Smushy and Booster were on the bed and that must have caused them some aggravation, but they weren't going to help me. The being aloneness is sort of amplified here. And for some reason, outside of dreaming i tend to to wake up and start going over my life going over my life in the middle of the night as people i know pass away and as i sort of seemingly successfully fight a an illness that has been terrifying to all of us for two years.

You know, obviously there's been a shift and a change and a different strain and a vaccine and medicines available. And, you know, that panic has lessened. But, you know, there is the residual trauma effect of the terror of the last couple years and also the recent deaths of people i know i think the idea of sleeping scares me to some degree but the dream man i had this dream and it was like i was at some sort of party or a house or whatever and i think it was timothy chalamet and like you know there was this sort of a room it was like a sauna but i had this plunge pool, but the plunge was like 20 feet and it was very narrow,

but it was tiled and it was water, you know, but you kind of fall down this hole into this tiled plunge pool, I guess. And Chalamet's like all fucked up or high on something. And I think he said to me, he said, I wish somebody could weigh me now with all the experiences I'm having now. Weird, right? And then he kind of fell into this plunging pool and he had his head once on the outside, once going down and he went down into the water and there was blood coming out of his head and he was down at the bottom under the water.

He wasn't moving. He wasn't coming up, and I went down into the water, but I didn't have the room, and I was getting claustrophobic, and it was like I got scared for myself. Could I get out? And I couldn't move my arms, and I couldn't grab him and pull him up successfully, and I was... Ah, awake. Terrible.

I'm sorry, Timothy. I'm sorry, man. I hope you're okay. It didn't look good. It didn't look good from where I was sitting in the dream. I tried, though. I tried to get in there. And I woke up.

Sorry, man. So, listen, if this was helpful, press one. I don't know. That's what's been going on. You know, I've been very panicky, and I just, I feel okay, but I don't feel perfect. And I imagine I'll get through this. Today is a week. So Peter Dinklage.

I was very excited to meet him. Cyrano, his new film, will get wide release in theaters beginning February 25th. Peter is nominated for the Critics' Choice Award for Best Actor. This is me talking to him here in the studio. Garage. talking to him here in the studio garage. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly host of under the influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer.

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Aj. Sadly, to be honest with you, I, not watch Game of Thrones, but I tried to cram it yesterday. It's really too much. The weird thing is there's more than 24 hours of Game of Thrones. There is? You can't. No.

You can't cram it in a day. You can't cram it in a day. You would think, I don't know, maybe. How many hours?. You can't cram it in a day. You can't like. You would think. I don't know. Maybe. How many hours? Can you cram I Love Lucy in a day? Maybe. I don't know what you can cram.

It's a half hour. So that would mean like 50. I'm bad at math. So 50 some odd episodes. There's more than 50. It's so funny. I can't. Cramming anything's a bad idea.

Cramming. Like I. Like I was looking at your. Physically cramming physically grabbing something like crammed sometimes it's a good thing yeah yeah yeah if you like i crammed uh in an outburger a double double into my face yesterday on the road and it wasn't a good thing but it was great while you're driving no i didn't i didn't i was my brother-in-law has a funny story about cramming a big and tasty which i think is a fast food joint somewhere. I think maybe Pacific Northwest.

Right. I'm not going to embarrass him any further. That's right. There was no restroom. Let's leave it at that. Oh. So the Big N' Tasty cup became the Big N' Tasty. Wow.

Yeah. You know, he's- We don't have to go into too much detail, but something went in there. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of a cute story or it's really like a nasty story? It's not a good story. It's neither like a nasty story it's it's not a

good it's neither you're not recording yet sure i am oh shit but yeah cramming because i was reading i was looking at the some of the stuff on you and and i realized you did some of that some narnia movie you know and i was like no no i tried to i was you tried to cram in the i when i was a kid christianity no we were assigned you know we're through an entire year we were reading the all to cram in the Christianity? No. We were assigned, through an entire year, we were reading all the books in Narnia, and I read none of them. You went to a Christian school? No. It wasn't.

It was actually kind of a progressive school, but I think it was before anybody was really associating it with specific Christianity. I don't know why it was assigned, but I know I was supposed to read them all. Yeah, I wonder if that was tacked on later. Well, no, I mean, he is a Christian. I read his book on grief.

I mean, he, you know, he's unabashed. But if it was exaggerated later on by the people Maybe, but I don't think, I think he was of the, you know, okay Christian. You know, they've,

they got kind of a bad rap now, but I think he's old school. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I know when we did it, it didn't feel Christian until... Yeah, I think it's metaphorical, but it's in there. But the point was...

I didn't feel very Christian making that movie. Well, that's good. Do you ever feel Christian making movies in general? I was under a lot of prosthetics and working with young people. Yeah. Remember at one point they divided up between the actors and the creatures, and apparently I was one of the creatures.

But all of us actors were playing creatures. Right. So it was sort of a class system on that set. Wouldn't fly today, I don't think. Really? I don't know. You had the class system between actors and creatures? I was a creature.

So there was no reason to be Christian. Exactly. Creatures shouldn't have religion in general. Part of the reason it was invented. There's going to be a problem when they do, when they finally find it. Well, it's, you know, with technology. So, yeah, but anyways, I tried to cram all of them in a day. That was the point.

Don't get too far from the mic or take it with you if you're going to. I can't lean back. I can't relax. No, you can pull it back. The thing moves. Yeah, it goes right with you excuse me oh yeah see that look at that no one gets that either i don't know why i knew you would no they i'm just sort of like just move it to your face and they're like what look at the structure of the boom it's designed to move around right every way you can yeah um yeah so that was a that was another cramming story so you're from jersey

originally yeah me too yeah i like to do the jersey i didn't do my research on you that's right i was i'm genetically jersey which is something people have heard me say forever both my parents from jersey my grandparents but you're not i was born in jersey you're born in jersey i lived the first six years of my life in Jersey. There you go. Always went back to Jersey. Jersey, pardon me. How do you pronounce S-A-U-C-E? S-A-U-C-E. What do you put on pasta? Tomato what?

Oh. Quickly, without thinking. Sock? You put tomato socks? Oh, sauce. Sauce. Sauce. Why?

What do you say? No, if I'm tired, I'll say sauce. Sauce. No, I didn't come out with a bad Jersey. Because we're educated now. We lifted. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe, but I wouldn't know if. Sauce. No, I didn't come out with a bad jersey. Because we're educated now. We lifted. Maybe. I don't know.

But I wouldn't know if I did. No, we weren't educated. We were made fun of. I went to school in Vermont, college in Vermont. Oh, that's where that is. And my friends from the Pacific Northwest, who apparently they have the perfect American dialect up there. There's no-

In Vermont? No, in the Pacific Northwest. My friends from there. Yeah. a couple of very smart friends, they just said, and they made fun of me for saying sauce. Sauce? And coffee. Coffee? Yeah.

Those are the two. Coffee? I've been ridiculed. Tomatoes? Tomatoes. Hey, that's more like Sinatra. Look at them tomatoes. Look at those tomatoes.

Well, yeah. It was mocked out of me. Oh, I see. Yeah. I don't think I ever really had it because I moved away when I was seven or eight years old. I grew up in New Mexico. But Jersey is, I love Jersey. I've grown to love it.

I don't go back much, but it used to be the brunt of a joke. And then you realize, like, there's nothing wrong with New Jersey. It's a great state. Yeah, it depends like, there's nothing wrong with New Jersey. It's a great state. Yeah, it depends on. There's some people. There's some people. Come on. Who are wrong in New Jersey.

There's wrong people everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. People are garbage. I might be one of those people. Well, you're going to be wrong some days. What part of New Jersey? North New Jersey. I was born at the shore.

Yeah. And the school system back in the 60s wasn't very good back then. Yeah. So my mom moved us north. Yeah. That's where I'm from. Pompton Lakes. That's where my roots are.

Pompton Lakes, New Jersey. Passaic County. Yeah. Yeah. Morris County. Yeah. It's pretty though. You don't think it's-

It is. A lot of parks. Is your mom still there? My mom's still there in the house I grew up in, yeah. So you go back to Jersey? Sometimes, yeah. And you live back to Jersey? Sometimes, yeah. And you live in New York? Not enough, according to my mom.

Oh, really? Yeah. But you're not far from Jersey. I don't know. I'm in Brooklyn, so I sort of say, Mom, why don't you just come to Brooklyn? Because you're by yourself now. And does she come?

It's easy for you to get in the car. Yeah. I got the dogs and the kids, and it's a little bit of a... Yeah, sometimes. She thinks, though, she thinks it's not New York. When I lived in Manhattan, she's like, this is New York City. She doesn't get crossing two rivers to get.

I got to be honest with you. Is this still New York? I don't think it is. Yeah. Because she misses when I lived in the West Village and the hats. Well, yeah, it's exciting coming from New York City. That's New York City. That's New Jersey to the city.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brooklyn is just sort of like, it's a bunch of buildings. It's like Jersey again. Yeah. It's like the other side. It's like the coast. It's like Newark. Yeah. Yeah, they don Brooklyn is just sort of like a bunch of buildings. It's like Jersey again. Yeah. It's like the other side. It's like the coast. It's like Newark. Yeah, they don't count the tail of the deer. It's like going to Long Island. Long Island's Long Island. It's not New York City.

It's not New York City. Yeah, no. There's no skyline. New York City's New York City. You lived in the West Village? Yeah, and Chelsea and all over. Wait, how old are you? 52. Okay, so I'm 58. So we're kind of similar. But we never crossed paths.

No, that's weird. I was in New York in like 89, 90, 91, 92. I went away for a year and then back 95 through 2000. Yeah. Yeah, never saw you. You would remember if you saw me. I would. No.

No, I was just staying out too late back then that was it that was it just just not just not doing much but staying out too late smoking too many cigarettes and uh not really um knowing what i wanted to do i thought i was a writer a writer is that how what did you start writer you didn't have to respond like that like what what do you mean well everyone thinks you're a writer for a while everyone thought i was a writer no everyone thinks they are people in the arts you know at some point go through the writer stage you have to land on something like i like what was your first passion writing really when you were a kid yeah and i think I think so. I think I was like guitar and... I see. Yeah.

But I can take it as a hobby. Right. Writing is a hobby, right? Kind of. Kind of. But you want to... I think when you're an artist, though, or you are aspiring to be an artist,

you want to be recognized for your shit. Do people... Does it need an audience? If that's the question, if you write and nobody reads it, are you a writer? If you play your guitar

just for you. Well, I'm just asking what was your intent? I mean, when you saw yourself as a writer, didn't you want people to read it?

Not really. Because it wasn't very good. Did you write in high school? I did. Yeah. You know, you start smoking weed and you read Charles Bukowski like everybody else and Sam

Shepard as a straight 16-year-old. Yeah. You know, if you're not into the musicals at that age, you're into the darker stuff. Yeah. The dark arts of- And then you start drinking. Yeah. Yeah.

And you really, you're tortured. Yeah. Of course. And you have to write about it. Yeah. You're playing it yeah i mean i did that when did you start did you smoke cigarettes you smoke cigarettes yeah you stole them from my dad's ashtray yeah down in the basement he used to smoke in the basement go

down what do you smoke what kind um what he was uh um shit that's a good question i was camel lights for 30 years 30 yeah some Yeah, from 16 to Shit, me too. whatever man, 40? I switched up a lot though. Always Camel Lights. I was like,

from 14, 15 years old to like 39 probably, 35? Yeah. No, 35. Yeah. Oh,

that's not as long as you actually. My, when your wife quits, you quit. You quit. Because you're kissing an ashtray.

Was it tough? Mm-hmm. I was on nicotine lozenges for over a decade. No, it's weird to see people smoking now though because a lot of people still do it.

Not as much as when we were. It is weird. When they're older and you're like, come on. Yeah. I mean, enough,

enough. It just isn't good. Yeah. It smells. You just don't, it's not, it's you don't ever think that you could have done that.

Yeah. Is what it is. Yeah. When that's all it was i know i when i smell it i still enjoy the smell and stuff but i know when i see people my age smoking i'm like there's nothing good there man no and it never ends no there's no there's no end to it until you stop it but then they just are pickled and they'll outlive us that's not true really no man they drop dead of heart attacks and cancer. I think it's DNA. Sure, a lot of it.

I think most of it is DNA. I don't know. Isn't it? I don't know. What we're given. Is it? I think a lot of it. You see a 95-year-old chain smoker

in his whole life. How do you explain that? That example, I think, is, I'd really like some numbers on those guys. I'm sure there are. Yeah. I'm sure the doctors have it.

I've heard that story. You know, there's always the example of the guy. But yeah, maybe he had good genes. Maybe he got lucky. But that doesn't mean anything.

You just happened to catch him smoking that one cigarette a week. And you're thinking, he's only smoking. You week. You're processing toxins. What's your body, what's it made out of? You know what I mean? How much can it take is what it comes down to. So you're Bukowski-ing in high school.

Right. And then you get really into it in college. Where'd you go to school? We're in Vermont. Bennington, Vermont. I feel like I know that school. Bennington is known for writers. Donna Tartt.

There's actually a podcast, I think, going on now about the times at Bennington during Oh, that's right. Reddy Stenellis, Donna Tartt. Yeah, yeah. I just saw an article about that. Apparently there's, I haven't listened to it. Was that your, oh, John, Reddy Stenellis, he's older than, he's like my. He graduated while I was coming in as a freshman.

So I just missed that sort of wave of hipster eighties writers. What'd you do in like in, in high school? What'd you do for jobs? High school, uh, mowed lawns and stuff, worked in a library. They thought I was homeless all the time. They kept coming in and try to kick me out. And I said, I work here. And there was this one older lady who hired me.

I don't think she told anybody. Um, because I dressed in like, uh, cap told anybody. Because I dressed in like capes. Yeah. I had like velvet capes. Really? I was that kind of teenager, yeah. I didn't do the goth black eyeliner. I loved the cure, but I didn't go makeup.

But I did the- Velvet capes. Black velvet capes, you know. Uh-huh. Combat boots and that type of thing. Really? Yeah. You know, you pre-rip the pant and the ears.

Yeah, yeah. Black jeans? No. No. Green, pre-rip the pant and the ears. Yeah, yeah. Black jeans? No, green, like camo, but black tights. Oh, okay. Because I was kind of shy. I didn't want to show the real, and so I had black tights. Yeah, black tights under your ripped jeans.

Very fantasy trans sort of look. I don't know what I was going for. Oh, that must have been a sight. I did. You got pictures? Any top hats in your past? Not top hats. I wore a beret for a while. Okay. You didn't go through a beret phase. It was the 80s.

Early 80s. Berets were in. You know what I went through? I had an Afghani wool hat. You'd recognize them. They were selling them on the street in New York a lot. It was wool and it looked that you know you'd recognize him they were selling on a street in New York a lot right they had like it they were There it was wool right and it looked like it when you fold it up. Yeah Confederacy of Dunces not quite class No, it was sort of like It was it looked like you could unroll it but it was rolled up and it was a cap

Okay, but it was definitely Afghan like a war surplus. It was a Mujahideen hat is what it was. I loved it. I wore hats like that. Yeah. Noah Brace. I've got a really big head, so when I find my hat, it stays for a while. Yeah. Because rare is the hat that fits me.

Do you play instrument? I don't. I used to play trumpet, but my brother's a violinist. Oh, yeah? And my mom is a piano player. Oh, yeah. He's the concertmaster at Hamilton. Hamilton, New York?

Hamilton, the Broadway show. Oh, oh, the show. Oh, really? Yeah, he's been doing that for a long time. So he's in show business, too. Lofty. The lofty part of show business. The high end.

The pit. Yes. The pit is high. It is high. That's some high-minded stuff. Because if he's not in the pit, he can do some shit that nobody understands, but everybody respects. Exactly. And you can...

That guy's good. You know virtuosity. You don't have to wear costumes. Is he amazing? Yeah, he's amazing. Older or younger? Older. He's been doing it since he was six years old and just...

He's never had a real job. He just has a violin, has paid for everything. Prodigy? I think so. Not Juilliard, sort of that sort of. You know, he was a prog rock head. So as soon as, if you play a violin, those guys can tell you, you can plug it in.

Then he immediately got like a transducer and got all into play, you know. Because prog rock's all about that stuff. Yeah, yeah. So that was his jam. Growing up, it was all Yes and UK. Crimson. Crimson and all that stuff.

Rush? Rush. He went on tour with Rush. He did? He did. Doing what? Playing violin? That's a lot of guys in the audience.

Yeah. It's very hard to find a lady in the Rush audience. No, ladies have been convinced by Rush guys to come occasionally. Yes. Yeah. They do not sing about love and loss. They did a documentary and they've addressed that kind of. Yeah.

They're great. They're amazing. What'd your brother do? He played violin. Really? He had a violin, electric violin solo. What's his name? The whole thing.

Jonathan Dinklage. Wow. It was great. They toured. He was so happy. He was so happy. But Neil, they lost Neil, so I don't think they're going back on it yet. So what did you do?

You sang in the art rock mess generally? No. The theater art rock mess? No. I got into the acting. Oh, okay. Yeah. So that was at Bennington?

Yeah. Acting and the writing, and then you go to New York, and then you start just. But did you take classes at Bennington? Uh in the writing and then you get go to new york and then you start just but did you take uh classes at bennington oh you did what did you major it was college you know you take classes i get it man but like yeah but some people don't study acting they're just sort of like it's not i don't i know i know and i that's why we had a couple of really good teachers yeah but i don't get it i really didn't get it was tired. There's a lot of people that sign up for acting class just because they're lazy and they think,

I don't know what, they're not going to ever do anything with it because they're terrible or they're not serious about it and they just are just sitting there and giggling or whatever it is.

Yeah. They don't put it together and... You put it together? I was trying to. Like when you realize like I like to act? You just find your, I'd say the tribe.

Yes. You've done a number of independent films. It's that feeling of getting a head start on the tribe that you will work with. Yeah. Like the great films you've done and have tried to do. It's sort of you find those people early on. Yeah. And I'm still really close friends with those guys from college and ladies.

Are they still in the biz? Some of them. Yeah. And those are, you know, we're nothing without each other. So. Really? That's what happens. They're your friends.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. And we continue to work together. Did you. Everybody has that Steppenwolf idea in America. Oh, you tried to start a. You know, everybody thinks if you're in the theater, you just look at the template that Steppenwolf idea in America. Oh, you tried to start a- You know, everybody thinks, if you're in the theater, you just look at the template that Steppenwolf did.

Malcolm H. and Sinise and Laurie Metcalf and all those guys did. I've talked to Laurie about the beginning of that. Yeah. Everybody looks at that and goes, I want to do that. So you tried to put a crew together? You do. You do it without even know you're doing it. But did you do it like in New York?

Yeah. Me and my buddy Ian, the guy who made fun of my accent, we rented, we made a theater in Williamsburg down on,

right under the Williamsburg Bridge and we tried to do that and it just fell apart because we didn't have any heat. It's rough, right? The landlord threatened

to kill a friend of mine. Really? Yeah. What kind of productions were you doing? Well, we were all just drinking too much, too, so we couldn't put it together. So we had like... So you never got a production up? No, never.

We did some poetry readings. But you had a space. Some bands played. Okay. We drank a lot. Uh-huh. And then we lost our minds and left

then walked away that was it that was it so you really because we're not we don't have any business sense and nobody who has

a business sense would live in the environment in which we were but you never even got a show up no

like I've talked to a lot of people Steppenwolf had True West we had nothing have you ever done that play no but it's sort of the dream like I've talked to a lot of people Steppenwolf had True West we had nothing have you ever done that play? no

but it's sort of the dream and yeah that's a good one it's like it's like Hamlet it's one of those like really

well that's I mean that Malkovich True West is the reason a lot of guys my age got into it are into it

did you see it at the Cherry Lane? no but I saw that American Playhouse videotape. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. That was, oh, who was it? But friends of mine like Ethan and Hawk and Paul Dano did it.

Ethan Hawk and Paul Dano did True Us Together? On Broadway a couple years ago, yeah. Was that the one where they were rotating people or did they switch roles? No, that was Phil Hoffman and John C. Reilly. It's just a play that everybody, it's just, it's just. Yeah. It's rock and roll.

It's definitely rock and roll. You know what the best part of that play is? The toast. Yeah. Eating the toast. Well, just smelling the toast. Yeah. Because the whole theater starts smelling like toast.

Everybody, and since most people are elderly, isn't that what you smell right before you have a heart attack? Yeah, so there's a lot of panic. Yeah. Panic in the room. Stroke is happening. Is it stroke or heart attack? One of them.

The reason I ask. That's not a bad thing to smell right before you die. No, it's nice. Stroke has happened. Is it stroke or heart attack? One of them. The reason I ask- But that's not a bad thing to smell right before you die. No, it's nice. It's a gift. It's a gift. It is a gift, yeah. But the reason I ask is that I think, who did I talk to? A lot of people start these trips.

I talked to David Harbour. Yeah. And I think he put together a crew, too. Yeah. But they did some shit. But I like the idea that you guys put it together. Well, logger dog, Mr. Harbour. And he didn't get anything done.

I like that. No. He's just too fucked up to get any- He must have had a business account guy. Well, la-da-da, Mr. Harbour. And he didn't get anything done. I like that. He's just too fucked up to get anything. He must have had a business account guy. No, no. I don't know that they made any money, but they got a play up. Do you know what I mean? I don't know if they were expecting much.

They had somebody rip tickets in half. We didn't have that. Yeah. So what happens after that? What happens after the... What was the name of the company? Did you at least name the troupe? Giant.

Giant Theater Company. So we had. R.I.P. Yeah. Yeah. R.I.P. Giant. Yeah.

You know, our heart was in the right place. How many people were involved in the failure? Just the two of us. Oh, really? Yeah. You hadn't even casted the bunch yet. No. No.

And we had to, we found a roommate, our friend, our friend Hilah's brother. I like that you still consider it a theater group. A thing that happened. People came to it. There was nothing to see, but people hung out. Well, you just, you just. There was always people hanging out. Oh, you had a couple events at this place.

Is that what you're telling me? It was, it felt like Andy Warhol's factory, but nothing like it at the same time. Exactly, yeah. People there to hang out. Yeah, drink. And is anybody doing anything? No.

Did you have any comedy there? There was some comedy. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So what happens after that? Surprisingly, we could have called. You could have probably made it. I popped in?

Yep, I heard. You could have put us on the map. Sure, man. I wasn't on the map, though. Hey, I hear there's a- You could have done something. Giants doing a show. Yep, I heard. You could have put us on the map. Sure, man. I wasn't on the map, though. Hey, I hear there's a- Well, you could have done something. Giants doing a show. They're doing comics.

Hey. Yeah. Open night. Yeah, open night at Giant. Open mic at Giant. Where is it? Under the bridge. Under the Williamsburg Bridge.

I'm good. Yeah, well, go. It rattled so much that you couldn't really hear a production of it. Seriously? Yeah. It's like, where's this fucking movie? Yeah, I know. Really, we should go back there. What happens after that my cough isn't covid don't

worry all right um um i paid the bills i'm a survivor yeah i got jobs acting no no because fuck acting when i was young i just didn't i didn't want to be a part of it because i just because i knew what it meant and I just didn't like that. What it meant for you or in general? I was just coming off the financial crisis of giant. Yeah. You know, the loss, the economic loss of giant. Devastating.

Devastating. Hard times. Yeah. It was like- So much put in, so little. So much put in. Yeah. So I thought, this is not for me

yeah so i worked in offices and did all sorts of things um how does it come back around i don't know you don't did you have a rep did you have somebody no not for pulled you back in i did bootstraps yeah i went um i read for this guy somebody somebody, oh, Kevin Corrigan. Oh, yeah. He was friends of a friend, a writer friend of mine, and he said, hey, we made this movie, you should come and read for the director, Tom DiCillo, and it was Living in Oblivion. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember, yeah. They had done like a short film version of that, and then they were making it. So I just, I read for Tom DiCello, and he gave me the part.

But then, you know, you do that movie, and it's great, and people see it, and then you go back to doing regular jobs. You didn't get an agent or anything? No. So you did that. I didn't want an agent. Yeah.

I didn't want any of that stuff. I think it's all on me. I could have done something earlier. What was the apprehension? Lack of control. Yeah. Just being told where to go, what to say. Right.

It was just stupid shit for someone my size. Oh, you were concerned that you'd be typecasted? Probably. Sure. But I think even if I was six foot two, I wouldn't. I didn't really, I wasn't, it was just humiliating. Acting in general, going out. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. And I also still think ambition is ugly. I'm trying to come to terms with ambition. And I think you need ambition. I agree. That's true. But for some reason for me, maybe I'm older.

Just ambition. I never, I always thought it was ugly. And there are people, I didn didn't the trust levels were people like that look man i mean some people see it sometimes and it's like for what for a part what are you doing well sometimes that's all people have you know that the weird thing is is that you know that type of focus and this idea that you know if you work hard you get the stuff and also that like you know what it's really about is uh you Is that that is a school of thought now. Yeah.

Especially, not to be that guy, but here in LA. Yeah, but ambition is not a point of view. But it is something that will get you to a point. You know what I mean? There is plenty of people that have an insane lack of talent. Right. But are fueled by ambition that do okay. I know.

I like the formula, perseverance plus talent equals luck. Yeah, that's it. That's a good one. But it's not ambition. It's sort of like just, I don't. Well, I think, you know, that there's a fine line between passion and ambition. And also, like, yeah, at some point in your head, you realize if you want to do the thing that you don't really have a choice in it. And you're going to be found out.

If you're ambitious just for yourself and you're not about, you're going to be found out. Yeah, maybe. You're not going to be around maybe maybe like you know it's it's one of the big problems like there are people that are very good at socializing right and the the ambitious people are the ones that know all the fucking things to do to get you into the place you want to be whereas people that are broken and fucking self-hating and in extraordinary talented they're they're more likely to do themselves in one way or the other. Right.

Yeah. So if you can persevere from that, out of that hole, then you're truly gifted. So there you go. Yeah. Without any ambition, you're gifted, and you're going to have to accept it. Well, yeah, there's also that stupid,

like you're hiding behind some false humility. That's like ambition. It's ugly. But, you know, if you're like, if you have any success, I guess you've had some sort of ambition to work. No, but I think what you said before is it's persistence. Yeah. And you want to work. Sure.

I love work. And work is what we do. Work is life and life is work intertwined with what we do. And so it's hard to delineate ambition in your life being ugly and wanting something in your work because they're so intertwined. But I think what you said is true is that the scary part about the job is that you're put in a position to take opportunities that you really don't want because someone has either talked you know, talked you into it or you're desperate. So, you know, there's, you know, that's a big fear. Right. Especially with actors

because you're really told what to do, where to stand and what to eat and what to wear. And it's just, the older you get, you just realize. That's why a lot of actors become producers or they become, or they direct. Right. Or they Gene Hackman it and they just leave it because they don't want to get up at 4 a.m.

You had 100. Yeah. It's not like he walked away in the prime of his fucking career. But he would come back, though. Sure. A lot of actors retire and then four years later,

wait, I thought you retired. He's in his 90s. I know, but you haven't heard from him. Yeah, I hear about him. Do you? Does he call you? No, but I grew up in New Mexico and he's up in Santa 90s. I know, but you haven't heard from him. Yeah, I hear about him. Do you? Does he call you? No, but I grew up in New Mexico, and he's up in Santa Fe, so I just talked to somebody

in Santa Fe. With Shirley MacLaine, she's around. Yeah, there's a few people up there, but I talked to my buddy's girlfriend. They live up there, and I asked, do you ever see Hackman? And she says, yeah, I saw him at the mobile home dealer, and he took the mobile home I wanted. I'm like, oh, that's a good hackman story his wife wanted the mobile home i wanted they got it and then turned out they didn't like

it so there you go he was checking out his stats on gold derby yeah dot com but nonetheless uh ambition but you know you you have somehow carved your own path what happens after living oblivion then how soon before the station agent uh almost 10 years oh jesus so after living in oblivion you actually lived in oblivion yeah a little bit no i did odds and ends and did some indie some friends made some indie movies that nobody saw. And you get a couple hundred bucks here and there for doing those. And then, yeah, living station agent Tom McCarthy. McCarthy, yeah, I've talked to him.

Yeah, he's great. He's a good friend. Smart guy. Very smart. Yeah, he wrote it with a couple actors of mine. And we just did it and didn't think anybody. Again, Tom knew that he was on to something, but just living in that small box of not seeing the bigger world out there of what you're working on. And perhaps in a theater sense of it all, you just do readings in people's living rooms. And then it was at Sundance and suddenly everybody was laughing.

You know, you're so immersed in it, you didn't realize it was even funny. Yeah. Until you get an audience in there. And that was when I knew that it was going to be somewhat popular. How much of your energy, though, early on went, you know, into, like how much do you think this non-ambition thing and also the desire for control thing,

was driven by not being, not wanting to be typecast in classical dwarf roles? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. Probably 100%, but that guy at that time wouldn't admit to that. Right, right. Me at time wouldn't admit to that. Right, right. Me at 24 would never admit to that.

You were just mad. Probably. Well, just thinking there's something else. Right, right. Not even embracing that reality. Right. Trying to distance myself from that, because that's not even something I would even dare to even consider. No?

What? Playing a leprechaun or something? No, no, no, no. But I mean like, oh, I thought you meant... A realm that was like not... But early on, I thought you were saying

you wouldn't own that disposition at that time, that that was the reason why you weren't... Yeah, yes. That's what I meant. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But now, later, that's obviously the reality of what it was but living with that reality that's an excuse sorry not really it is i don't know is it yeah i mean but but do you think like let's say you did it differently and you did you took all the leprechaun roles and even a few tv commercials

you think you'd still be the same guy now? Talking to you? I don't know. What is that? Well, I mean, it's the difference, I guess, between... That calls into question every choice you make. Absolutely. The different paths of reality set forth for you.

Well, I think something in your heart knows, like, you know, when you've crossed a line or there's a line you don't want to cross. I mean, I think that... I mean what just in general living with it what was your experience and how in how you judged yourself well there there are people in our line of work yeah in the business of show that would do anything to be around it like i've read articles about people who worked in the in the design shops and it was

like runners on movie sets to give this actor his coffee and just to be around the energy of it i wanted nothing to do with yeah you know because that just seemed that that would just make me even more sad about it all it back then yeah i don't know now but um i just so i would i would assume that you probably still wouldn't want to get somebody coffee on set no that takes a certain personality. Yes, it does. Lovely personality that I don't have. So I would just do anything else but work in the theater. Show business, right, right. I get it.

I get it. So you just kept it this angry dream. This angry distance from it all and waited until they were ready. Until they sent the right representative. Yeah, exactly. Oh, boy, I had some winners. Yeah? Yeah, I can't talk about that, though, because they're still working, I suppose.

They're still kicking? Yeah, and they're lovely. It just wasn't the right fit, perhaps. I mean, I don't know a lot of the movies before The Station Agent. Like 13 Moons or... Alex Rockwell. Yeah. Incredible.

Was it a good movie? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's hard to separate the experience of the movie from the movie. I like having a great experience making a movie,

and if nobody sees it, you know, what are you going to do? But sometimes, rarely is the thing that you have a great experience and everybody sees it and loves it. But do you... That's why everybody's doing TV now because, you know, everybody sees it.

Yeah, or somehow, if there's enough of it out there, eventually they'll see it. I don't know why suddenly some people have so much time on their hands to watch all this stuff. There's so much stuff. Yeah, it's impossible, but it does... Because they can pause it. Yeah, and that also exists out there in the world, especially if you're part of a huge series like you were. That's never going to go away, ever.

No, I know. I might even watch it eventually, even though I pushed back against it with all of my heart. Why? I'm not a fantasy guy. Wow. Neither was I. Neither am I.

No, you are now. It's my gig. It was my job. It's just really good you are now. It's my gig. It was my job. It's just really good writing. Yeah? It's not really about fantasy. It's mostly people in a room talking. Well, that's what I hear.

Occasionally dragons show up. That's what I hear. But then- It wasn't about the dragons. I get it. But- No, you don't because you haven't seen it. No, I know, but I get what you're saying.

I always get that on the street. This was the argument. This was the argument. People always come up to me on the street. There's a whole thing. There's a thing that people do on the street because, you know, I get recognized.

They're like, I never watched it. Yeah, they love saying that. Yeah. It's like a badge of honor. Or they'll come up and they'll just go, I'm the same with Marvel.

You were on Game of Thrones. Yeah. Yeah. My son liked it. There's no nothing. They're just there to state their case. Yeah, state their case or or which you

just did yeah but i i mean i watch your other movies i mean you're proud of it you're not a fantasy thing i watch your movies yeah i know but i watch some of your movies too but the point is like i'm not trying to make a statement no i know but i know it was a big deal i'm actually oddly trying to be respectful and acknowledge that if nobody watched game of thrones would you check it out no if it was counterculture. Part of the other reason- And if it wasn't such a- No, no, no, no.

Part of the other reason is the commitment. You know, like by the time, by the time like, you know, everyone was like, let's, you know, you got to do this. I'm like, you know, what am I going to, I got to start this thing now? You know, so like-

What are you doing tonight? I didn't watch The Wire until like 10 years after and you watched all of it yeah yeah me too like Breaking Bad I was I was watching that

week to week oh man so good and then I watched it again I caught up about three seasons by the third season I watched them all it's just like

you're right maybe I need to make the time but I'm the same way with Marvel movies in terms of fantasy but I know the Game of Thrones is of a different mind

and it's like and it's amazing I know that I don't it's up to you to decide that I believe it's true but I have not

watched it but I hear you're great in it people seem to like that me in it saying things you got prizes saying lines

I got some prizes you got the prizes no it was you know I think they got mad at the show at the end

everybody got mad because they didn't want to say goodbye to it yeah well that happens you can't win is another one coming yeah there's a prequel

coming up you in it no no nobody nobody attached to the originals but there's there's a prequel coming up. You in it? No. No, nobody attached to the originals in it. But there's another one because it made some money. HBO is back on it. Which I have an opinion about.

Yeah. You know. Yeah, what is it? Just make something different. Make something. No, I think it's going to be a really good show because I know the director of the producer of it worked on our show. I think it's going to be really fucking good show because i know the director of the producer of it worked on our show

i think it's going to be really fucking good that's good but but they took a risk on our show hbo did it's all under all old all new leadership over there yeah they took a huge risk on our show and it was it was a slow start. But why don't they do that again? Right. This isn't a risk. It's a proven thing that works. Well, they're doing it with succession, I think. Yeah.

I mean, that started out of nowhere, it seemed, succession. Yeah, another great, I love that show. Love it. I'm starting to go, why am I watching these people? They're so, they're so, ugh. Well, that's because of what you said. It's because of the language. Yeah.

I mean, it's dialect. Dialogue. Dialect. It's great. Dialogue. It's dialogue. Well, you know, you can have the best idea

for a show or a movie and just show me the dialogue. Sure. You know. Is that how you choose most things? You gotta read the dialogue, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, like, how do you,

what? But I knew Dave and Dan. I knew, especially Benioff, one of the writers for Game of Thrones. Yeah. I knew how good of a writer he was. I wasn't familiar with Dan's writing yet. Yeah.

Benioff was an incredible writer. But you did a funny turn in Elf. That was a good... That was funny. Yeah. I always liked the funny. And this station agent... I try and go to the funny.

This station agent was great. I always try and go for the funny. Do you? Yeah. I'm not being very funny right now because I've been talking about myself in this movie for two weeks. We haven't even talked

about the movie yet. Maybe we won't have to. Maybe this is the interview I do where we don't have to talk about it. You're not a plug show. We don't, you know. No, I build it around the plug.

When does this air? In like six months? No, we'll do it. That's how you got on here. How do they air? What is podcast? You just press a button and they're suddenly on the internet? No, this is just how I get people to come to my house. That's how you got on here. Do they air? What is podcast? You just press a button and they're suddenly on the internet?

No, this is just how I get people to come to my house. There's no airing. It's got this weird reputation. You don't watch Game of Thrones. I don't do podcasts. Yeah. I still don't know what they are. It's like a radio show.

You know what it is. Yeah, people watch it. Have people said that before? Like, I don't know. What is a podcast? Well, they don't quite say what is it anymore unless they're 90. Well, that's me. But you're asking me the reason why it's not a plug show is that, well, I wouldn't have been able to get you to come here without the premise being you're promoting a movie.

But I don't usually do full plug. But I did watch the movie. But I want to talk about the station agent for a second because that seemed to be the big turning point. Plug the Blu-ray re-release of the station agent. But McCarthy seemed to understand something that broadened your capacity as an actor and as a public person, right? I mean, he innately knew that. Well, yeah. I mean, because we knew each other.

Yeah. By that point, by the time we filmed, we were good friends. So I think that's such a head start on everything. And, you know, movie making is weird when you're not familiar and good friends with people. Yeah. Yeah, because it's fake. It's false. But when you have that experience with people and love and familiarity familiarity and shorthand shorthand changes

everything and that's what um helped that movie it's fun that like in patricia clarkson's so great yeah michelle williams is like that was just so young at that point she was still doing dawson's creek at that point yeah that's crazy we had to wrap her out to get her back get her back to the kid show and squeak yeah did you go hang around that Worcester group at all? Did you go see that shit? No. I saw, that was sort of before my time. And then when we got there, it was, I saw, just actually, not that, like 10 years ago, I saw a show there that Fran McDormand did.

But no, not really. No. No. I missed all that. I was too busy just being a dumb comic. Yeah, I was sort of being just a dumb idiot. Just didn't go see a lot of plays. Because there was like plays,

and there was like the end of sort of performance art was happening down there. There were still people around doing things. Yeah. Like that, performance-wise, interesting kind of avant-garde stuff, which sort of became a mockery of itself eventually. Yeah. Yeah.

I see a lot of comedy. There's a lot of comedy. Stand-up? Yeah. Comic Friends. Oh, like who? Show Walter and all those guys. The steak.

You see, you went to Stella in Time. Stella. Stella at the Time Cafe. We went all the time to that. Oh, really? Yeah. I did that once or twice. I always had a beef.

I probably saw you. Had beef with those guys. Yeah. I'm okay with them now I guess they annoyed me no I remember it was

yeah cause they were I could you know yeah I could yeah but I remember

Louie would show up occasionally I remember like the is Louie here tonight is Louie yeah Silverman everybody

Janine yeah everybody yeah yeah it was a thing yeah and that guy blew in his band

yup that was what we would do or whatever every Wednesday for a while there right Yeah, everybody. Yeah, yeah. It was a thing. Yeah. And that guy blew in his band. Yep. That was what we would do or whatever every Wednesday for a while there. Right. We'd head over there, yeah. I just remember like having been like mostly a club comic, I just, as that kind of world of, you know, kind of nice kind of sketch oriented people started to populate comedy, I just resented them. Because you were a lone wolf exactly and did

it become like the cool kids kind of shutting you out a little bit or did it what no they always wanted to involve me but i was not them in particular but comedy no is there i could have done a hierarchy no i mean we did luna lounge did you do that too that was a little earlier like i was always there because i never performed i would just be an audience yeah because i could go up there and yell and and do what i do but then like yeah it all became very sort of like the ambition though hipster i guess what we're talking about before a little of that seems like perhaps there was something there was something happening in terms of a community uh definition like you know comics you know our job is to you know go out into the wild of our brain in the world and you know beat ourselves up and try to process, you know, comics, you know, our job is to go out into the wild of our brain and the world and

beat ourselves up and try to process things. You know, I had a different idea of what it was than, you know, sort of like we're doing this thing together. What does that mean? Right. Right. Right.

Why? Skits. Yeah, yeah. I don't do skits. Yeah. They were, but really funny skits. sure but i get it if i was yeah i get it um what do you think what's happening now with comedy with the world we're living in now oh i i think that there's a problem again with some sort of tribalization but it's not the sort of like um uh kind of like urbane nerd uh that that is really being afraid to now there's an being afraid to be funny or being afraid to say something well i think that's inappropriate which is the basis of all i guess so but i i think that that's i i don't not to be hot topic guy no but i don't i

don't really buy into that i don't i buy into that. I think you can say things. And I think you can still. Like, you know, if the impulse is only to shock or to say something to make an impact. That's not so fun. But, I mean, the great leveler that comics have always done. Sure, but I still think that's possible. We're all in it together. I don't know if that's true anymore.

Right. Because of? Politics. The audience or because of the comic? Because of politics. I think that this idea that there is a woke comedy and an anti-woke comedy is fucking ridiculous. Right.

And if you consider yourself anti-woke, then I think you're carrying water for right-wing propaganda. Yeah. And I think that you're a hack because the job is to think for yourself. Yeah. So, what, you know, like, you know,

if you can't find your voice in a world of diversity and respect then you know what are you really and if you can't transcend that by being uh you know respectful yet still provocative then you know you're not really challenging yourself are you yeah you're right things evolve i just i think that you can be as crass and as fucking vulgar and as fucking provocative as you want without saying a couple of words right exactly you know what i mean right it's like you know there's a lot of words we don't say anymore this whole idea that we can't joke about anything has been around since you know the beginning of comedy i know there's a lot of hypocrisy going on i gotta say from being a somebody who's a little bit unique front row

seat to some really like what like what do you see well you know it's really progressive to um cast uh literally no offense to anything but i was a little taken back by the very very they're very proud to cast a latino actress as snow white yeah but you're still telling the story of snow white yeah seven dwarves sure take a step back and look at what you're doing there yeah i know that makes no sense to me but oh so you're progressive in one way and then but you're still making that fucking backward oh story of seven dwarves living in a cave to get what the fuck are you doing man we you know have i have i done nothing to advance the cause from my soapbox i guess I'm not loud enough.

I don't know what studio that is. But they were so proud of that. And all love and respect to the actress and to the people who thought they were doing the right thing. But I'm just like, what are you doing? Right. And I remember doing, I played Herve Villachez in an HBO film. And there was a lot of early backlash. How dare he play a Filipino?

They were so liberal-minded, and I am as liberal as anybody. Right. But they were so convinced because of how he looked, Hervé, that he was Filipino, which is, if that's not racism, whatve, that he was Filipino, which is, if that's not racism,

what else? Because he's not. He was a Frenchman and his physical condition made him look very cherubic. Uh-huh. And I guess someone from the Far East.

But they got very angry. How dare you do that? And they didn't even have all the information. Nothing. They just assumed. Yeah, I... And here I am

hanging out with his brother patrick village as who was just like laughing at all of it uh-huh who was born and raised in france with the guy and well i think that's interesting because i'm also if you tell the tell the story of snow white yeah it's most fucked up cool progressive spin on it let's do it yeah uh all in but i just don't know. But that has something to do with business, doesn't it? Because like- But it's all the same world, what you're talking about.

It is, but like- And watching ourselves and being hypocrisy of all of that. But not unlike we were talking about before is that they knew, it's not unlike, you know, revivals, right? So they knew they got a cash cow with that story. So, you know, it's- Because people don't take risks. Right. But the point is, is that like they were just-

With great risk comes great reward. Yeah. But in their mind, they're like, we got a no brainer here. Right. You know, we can win by appearing to be progressive, by casting a Latina. And, you know, we can just, we can just run money through this story again. I don't think anybody has ever probably, other than what I just heard just now, said,

you know, this is not, the dwarf community is tired of this shit. Is there one? I don't know. Well, that's the thing, right? In order to seek representation, you have to have a community movement, which also is the heart of what becomes the issue of wokeness but it's such a minority i know and i'm not i'm not affiliated with any um groups or anything but it's such a minority that it causes a real like well who the fuck cares you know and that's it's entertainment i mean entertainment right but i think that that's

also what i'm i'm talking about is that there there's a movement on behalf of like anti-wokeness to get us back to who the fuck cares now i'm not yeah i'm not saying that you know you should you know stand up for for uh your community it's not your responsibility and it may be relative i don't know would you even consider it marginalized or just not even acknowledged you know other than some you know what to call people exactly yeah i don't know the thing is is like i think in the world that you know anti-wokeness or you know anti-progressiveness sees it's sort of like hey come on everybody let's go back to can't we just fuck with people right which i which half my brain does sure because i'm about as politically non-correct right because probably because of who i am i'm maybe allowed to be a little less

politically correct because i get to i get to make fun of myself yeah you know i gotta say the m word you know what i mean you know what i mean you do m. I know, I heard you. But again, you're in a movie now that speaks to this too, because, you know. Speaks to what? To casting in a different way. It's sort of an age-old story, Cyrano, which I have never seen or read. So that story was totally new to me when I watched it the other day, which was very exciting. Yeah. Because it's heartbreaking.

Oh, you saw the movie? I did. Oh, cool. You liked it? Yeah. was very exciting. Yeah. Because it's heartbreaking. Oh, you saw the movie? I did. Oh, cool. You liked it? Yeah. Really? Yes. Cool.

As I get older, and even when I wasn't older, it's like, I admit that musicals move me. People in general, singing or any of that. Right. I don't run around saying I love them,

but they always get me. Do you like the band The National? No. They wrote all the songs. It band The National? No. Oh. They wrote all the songs. It's very good, though. Yeah. It's more of a-

Now I like them. Now I like the band The National. It's kind of a movie with songs. It's musical. You sort of think like big, big lavish numbers. No, I guess so. I mean, it is a musical. Yeah.

I mean, it's a movie with songs, but you do- There's dance numbers. I don't dance. Basically. No, you don't. That's true. There are choreographed dance numbers, so I guess it's a movie with songs, but you do, there's dance numbers. I don't dance. Basically. No, you don't. That's true. There are choreographed dance numbers, so I guess it is a musical. No, it was originally a stage play.

And Erica Schmidt, the adapter of the original Rustand play, French play from about 120 years ago, she had the great idea, all right, this show is done all the time. It's been done for 100 years. And the movie with Steve Martin was Roxanne. Yeah. And then there was a movie with Gerard Depardieu.

Which is great. Yeah, I hear that. And it'll be done 100 years from now. Yeah. We're not the first or last version of the story. Right. So with that,

you can kind of unearth it a bit and go, all right, what do we do with this one? Like Roxanne, like Steve Martin did. Yeah. Let's make it a pure comedy. But what she did was, all right, what do we do with this one? Like Roxanne, like Steve Martin did. Let's make it a pure comedy.

But what she did was she said, well, what if we take away its most famous attribute? What if we take away the nose? Right. And what are you left with? You're left with the same heart, but no nose. Yeah. And for me, I never really associated

with the play growing up. I was more, obviously, like we said, Sam Shepard. Yeah. Because I always thought it was this handsome actor and a fake nose. Yeah. And when he wrote it 120 years ago, I'm sure it was great and the crowds went wild. Yeah. And it was like, oh, what's up?

It was probably one of the first known prosthetics used. Yeah. It was probably maybe even controversial to some. What are you doing? But now it's just, what the fuck are you griping about this big nose it doesn't seem and the actor got to take it off at the end of each performance yeah put it on his little nose hook in the dressing room the nose hook wherever he kept it i like a nose a nose hook but he could do that. And I just thought, it's just, I know theater and film, it's false. It's make believe.

It's pretend. But growing up, I needed that to be connected real on a guttural, visceral level with something. Of course. And it was just too theatrical to me. I didn't like any of it. But then Erica got rid of it because she didn't write it for me. But she got rid of the nose and she added these songs got the band to add these songs i just thought there was a smart way in yeah and very i

lobbied for the part and she let me she let me play the part and my size is not a substitute for the lack of a nose it's just sort of it's sort of uh perhaps I was drawn upon stuff in terms of feeling insecure about yourself on bad days. But now it's spoke to everybody suddenly. Yeah, but also like, yeah, you take away the prosthetic and you take away that device, which makes it kind of asks for comedy. Of course it does. And it also you subconsciously as an audience member, I've found are judging the character just like all the other characters are judging him. Because you just, you're not, it's just a big nose. Right.

And you're kind of, it's fake. Yeah. And it's sort of. You're in on the joke. And the actor's in on the joke with you. Right. Almost winking at the audience. Like, look at my big nose.

Almost winking at the audience. Like, look at my big nose. What's interesting about this movie is that you don't ask any real questions about how or why you are what you are. You show up and you're clearly you, but your intellect and everything is already intact. And the swordmanship and all that stuff, because you put the work in to figure out how to do that. It's all sort of like, well, this guy's just a badass right period yeah and no one's gonna fuck with this guy you know like you're like uh it never appears comedic in that way no it's heartbreaking from the very beginning because it's just can't purely human can't play the comedy of anything really no but like but i could see what you were saying that know, to keep returning to the nose after a certain point, it just becomes frozen in time.

It becomes a tradition. It becomes silly. And you have to suspend a whole lot of disbelief just in order to get to the humanity of the play. Right. And I thought if this guy is really heroic in everything in his life, except for love. That's really cool too. That's very, you know, because heroes usually in films are, you know, heroic across the board.

In battle, Field comes back with the woman and, you know, he's heroic all the time. Yeah, but just... To be completely at the mercy of love. Yes. It was pretty great. Is that a choice that you made to, in terms of playing it? I like that he's

cowardly in one aspect. But that's what I'm asking you. I mean, the story is the story, but when you were deciding how to make choices

around playing him. Well, I think it calls into question a lot of, about what, what is love? Yeah. But truly, it's love, it's, this guy, it's almost like I think it calls into question a lot about what is love. Yeah.

But truly, it's love. This guy, it's almost like if Roxanne professed her love to him, he wouldn't know what to do in a way. It's like people who are in love with the idea of love. What the fuck is love? Yeah. Is there such a thing as love at first sight, or is that just chemicals and sex? Yeah. Attraction?

Does love come later? Right. What do you, what is it? What is it? Can you, is it possible to sustain it for a lifetime? That's what the movie's about. Right. But it's more about that initial,

keeping that initial thrill. Right. And how do you sustain it? You know, in an Emily Bronte sense of it all, like people who have this notion of what it is. Yeah. It's very old school Catholic, you know, about like loving God and giving your life to something, but you're not even aware of what it is truly

that you're bowing down to, I think. And I think a lot of people don't like to apply love to reality. They like to keep them separate, and that's what Cyrano does. I don't know, you know, what are they going to move in together as soon as Roxanne starts snoring?

Cyrano going to still be in love with her? Still be in written poetry about her? I don't know. I think what you bring up is interesting about belief and about loyalty and about decision, your choosing to live in that elevated state of whatever it may be, love, obsession. But also if you're lying to that person, he's lying to Roxanne. He sets up this elaborate catfish with Christian.

Yeah, but she sort of initiates that. I mean, her feeling. It's her. No, but her feeling for him, however naive it may have been, was where it started. Right. You stepped in

because she asked you. I mean, it isn't just. Have you ever been, sorry to interrupt, have you ever been close friends with a woman? No. No.

close friends with a woman no no that you were attracted to yeah but they weren't yes we all have i think yeah but i think that's you know after a series of those and where's where my friendships with women sort of took a hit right cyrano doesn't doesn't take a hint because he's been friends with Roxanne for a long time. And if she doesn't realize that, he also didn't. In love with her. Yeah, but just like he saw her, she sees him in a different way. Yeah. The familiarity is your biggest enemy there. Right. Yeah. How do you shift that? Have you gone back and become friends with those women?

Well, I mean, you know, it happens. After time fizzles or whatever it does. It happens throughout my life at different points, you know, where, but I always blame myself. Of course. So, you know, I mean, I don't know if I, like, I have a few women friends, but not many. Were you quiet about it, or would you tell them right away, like an actor like myself would? No, I was just quietly, you know,

obsessed and, you know, overcompensating. Right. You know, and then it just, you know, none of them were, did I have it at an age where, you know, I would, you know, maintain the relationship.

I mean, it's been tricky for me in general to maintain friendships by and large. I have a few friends. How many friends do you need, though? People have two main friends. I know I have a bit about that. You need two. You need the main guy and the guy you go to

when you drain the main guy. Hey, man, I'm having this problem. Oh, you're tired? No, I'll call the other guy. I've lost some friends over the years. Yeah. Just because I'm tired of listening to them. Sure.

It's all about them and the problems. I definitely have those. You feel resentful, like, wait, what about my shit? Man, you're not, you know. Yeah, well, like, it depends. I had to walk away from some of those. Yeah, and then did you ask yourself, why am I the guy that they do that to?

Yeah, that's on me, too. Yeah, and then did you ask yourself, why am I the guy that they do that to? Yeah, that's on me too. Yeah, I mean, that's... 100%. My dad's a famous self-involved rambling man. But anyway, so... I love that Chris Christopherson song. It's one of the best. Self-involved rambling man. Yeah, it's not even that sad.

No, it's not. It's tiring. It goes on. It's an entire side of an album. Yeah, we get the point. And then you flip over the album, you think it's over, but it's still going. It's still there. He's still talking about something he don't give a shit about.

About himself. Right. Yeah, most songwriting might fall into that. Yeah, I guess so. Shut up already with the singing about it. Yeah, I'm more of a melody guy than a lyric guy. Give me the riff. I want to know the riff.

I don't need to hear the talking. That's why you don't know what most people are singing about. Excuse me while I kiss this guy. Yeah. Wait, is that what he's saying? What? Oh, man. Here, smoke this.

It doesn't matter, man. It doesn't matter. We're on a rocket. This guitar is upside down. And he's saying? What? Oh, man. Here, smoke this. Yeah. Doesn't matter, man. It doesn't matter. We're on a rocket. His guitar's upside down. And he's holding it. But. Am I upside down or is Jimmy's guitar? It all is, man.

Did you ever listen to The Dead? Were you ever a Deadhead? I was never a Deadhead. I wouldn't say I was a Deadhead, but I do have an appreciation for The Dead. I see. I was, I guess, at a young age when you're doing the prog rock, if you don't sleep, it's like anti-dead. Yeah.

Yeah. I was anti-dead. I get it. I was pro-life. No, that doesn't sound right. Not that. But, but, but to speak to the movie, like, you know, the choice to cast you, which I thought was genius.

And then I imagine in the classic telling of the story christian is not a black man so that was a choice yeah but he's all quite often played like an idiot and we uh it's funny because is that true yeah yeah oh wow you're a handsome idiot but um this version uh that erica created she never saw him as that. She created a very kind person. Who is aware of his flaws. Yeah. And his shortcomings. And just so, like, the opposite of Sarah.

Yeah, she doubled the heartbreak. Yeah, but I think what it speaks to is if you meet a really sweet, kind person, your first thing is like, I'm not sure that person's very smart. Because I think we equate kindness with lack of intelligence. Yeah. And like cynicism and darkness with intelligence. Yeah, that's true. It's the old, I think it's like a Seinfeld thing of like, if you ever want to look smart, you just seem like frustrated or something.

I look like a fucking genius all the time. I fool some people. Hey, you're a genius. No, I'm not. I'm just anxious and aggravated. Don't misread me. About my cornflakes. Yeah, yeah.

Exactly. That got soggy. Exactly. So fucking angry. The day is done. The day is done. It's fucked. So dark.

Breakfast was a disaster. Still holding on to it. Yeah. Two days later. But that's what they did. Yeah. And with Kelvin, Kelvin, the actor who plays Christian,

he does it so beautifully. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. It really was. I mean, I do like watching those things and I do start to think about how many of these kind of period piece musicals are just tragic as fuck. But because they're musicals, you're like, it makes it so different.

The singing makes it different. You forgive everything. Well, it actually delivers the goods of tragedy in a way that you can absorb. in a way that you can, you know, absorb, you know, because like, you know, the, the tragic ending in general, you know, you sort of want to avoid it because that we're all headed there. Right. But when it's about love and broken hearts and unrequited love and stuff like I, I, you know, I get the tension of that, but I think that when there's song and when, you know,

it is elevated in that way, you can process it differently and enables you to have feelings that you might not have been able to handle if it was just straight up sad. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I know. You mean, that doesn't mean it's softer though, right?

No. That doesn't mean it's like easier, more palatable. No, but like as I get older, I'm like, you know, I don't know if I want to watch it if it's going to be devastating. I don't feel like dealing with it.

Do you know what I mean? Sure. And, you know what I mean? Sure. And, you know, this is an emotionally devastating classical story, and I imagine that the original is played with some humor, right? Yeah. Where this is like, it's not played with humor,

but because of the music, you actually experience it in a deeper way. I don't think... Yeah, no, there's some humor to it, but the music does lift it out of the quagmire of the tragedy quite often. And that's, and then, you know, musicals, I like some of them.

I'm just sort of a sucker for, I don't watch a lot of them, but when I find myself doing it, I get very emotional right away just because people are singing. Right, of course. I don't watch a lot of them, but when I find myself doing it, I get very emotional right away just because people are singing. Right.

Yeah. Of course. I don't know why. And like Stephen Zahnheim, Rest in Peace. Yeah. I mean, not the Tim Burton version,

but when Sweeney Todd came along, that just sort of, that was like a true West moment and for me with musicals. Because it was not your average musical

narrative. Yeah, yeah yeah this is a musical about a guy who slits people's throats out of revenge and makes meat pies out of them i'm all in yeah i'm so in and it's brilliantly done with music that gives you goosebumps yeah um the writer emerald fennel just did a version of cinderella with Webber. And they redid the whole thing. Made Prince Charming gay the whole nine years. Maybe she should be the one to take on Snow White. It's great. She's forward thinking, man.

We're working on a Rumpelstiltskin right now. Really? Yeah, that's going to hopefully change the wheel a little bit. Blow some minds? I hope so. Rumpelstiltskin's now. Really? Yeah, that's going to hopefully change the wheel a little bit. Blow some minds? I hope so. Rumpelstiltskin's back. Dude. Great talking to you.

But nobody knows that story, so we can do anything. Yeah. Is that it? We're done? Yeah, unless you got closing thoughts.

Sorry. I'm just sad that I don't have, I usually give people a mug and I'm out of them, and I'm going to have to get you a mug at a different time. That's my big sadness. I'm just sad that I don't have, I usually give people a mug and I'm out of them and I'm going to have to get you a mug at a different time. That's my big sadness. I don't know.

Now it's mine. No, like an actual WTF mug. You can get a Paris mug in New York, but I appreciate you licking it like that would somehow like, oh no, Dinklage licked the cup. You got to take it home. All right, buddy. Just a little bit of COVID.

Have fun. How long are you going to be in L.A.? It's all a jet lag. You're here for a little while? Just a week. Okay. Well, have fun out there. Thank you.

Thank you, everybody out there. There you go. Podcast land. That's it.eter dinklage sereno will get a wide release in theaters beginning february 25th peter is nominated for the critics choice award for best actor it was very exciting and fun to talk to him i hope i can do my shows this week you will know if i can't i just look i feel all right i feel like i could but you know i can't go out there in the world without a negative test so if you don't hear from me all systems go or somebody you know you know it is but you know what's up i don't even know how many of you are

listening now i'm going to try some finger picking distorted finger picking on my electric guitar it's very hard for me to stay focused. Generally. It's not a COVID thing. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. It's close. I'm working on my finger picking.

Very simple. I'm working on my finger picking very simple Hi it's Terry O'Reilly host of Under the Influence recently we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization it's a brand new challenging marketing category and I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

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