WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1303 - Judd Hirsch

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

Judd Hirsch is interested in the pursuit of truth. That's why he loved math as a student, that's why he got a physics degree, and that's why he has a civil engineering background. But he also learned to apply the pursuit of truth to his acting. Judd tells Marc why he always insists on conveying the truth about his characters, down to changing the characters' names if they don't feel right. They talk about his roles in Taxi, Ordinary People, Uncut Gems and as Marc's dad on the show Maron, and how he uncovered the truth in all of those instances.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it i've just got i got a wave of queasiness out of

nowhere. I don't even know why. Was it because I'm starting the show? No, I'm not nervous about that. Is it post COVID business? I don't think so. Did I just eat some stuff? Yeah. Could it have been bad? Maybe. I guess we waited out so many things in life. You just got to wait out. Wow. Where's this queasy feeling going? How's everybody doing? Are you up and at it? Are you out there making chaos on the platforms? Judd Hirsch is on the show today. Judd Hirsch, you know who Judd Hirsch is. He was, I think, best known for playing the role of my father on the show Marin.

No, that's a lie. He's best known for playing Alex Rieger on Taxi, but he's also known from Ordinary People, running on Empty, Independence Day. He's got two Tony Awards for Best Actor, and he'll be in the upcoming Steven Spielberg movie, The Fablemans, which I talked about with Tony Kushner, if you're keeping up with the episodes.

Oh, my God. If you're listening to this when it was released, I'm traveling right now. I got to do some stuff in a place. I'm going to a place to do some stuff. And then at the end of the week, I'm going to San Diego for two shows. I got to pull the hour back together. I don't think I've done the full hour for what, since I was in New York?

And yeah, I've been doing sets. I've been getting the COVID. I've been having a life. But I haven't been out there running the hour plus, the hour and a half or whatever I was running before New York, leading up to the town hall show for the New York Comedy Festival. And now I've got to put it all into the mental

grooves again. I got to re-groove it. Got to drop the needle back into the brain. So I got to listen to it, figure out what still holds. I think most of it still holds. I got some new stuff going in and then get it up on its feet and see what happens in San Diego. That's a fine place to see what happens. San Diego, isn't it? I think it'll be fine. I've been doing a lot of stuff. Queasy, little queasy right now.

So talking to Judd was interesting. And I think a long time coming, actually. I don't remember. I think I had asked him to come on while we were shooting. I just don't know if we had time. I know that when he came in to shoot it was only for a few days and it's interesting because i actually i learned some stuff from him and i told i told him about it i mean you'll hear it but i mean maybe i should frame it differently i learned a couple of things from judd is is that when i was casting my show when we had to cast the father, we were looking at a lot of people. And it's wild because when you start looking for actors, you start to realize

that everybody's around still, like all his generation of actors, guys who are in their 60s, 70s, 80s, the ones that are alive are around and relatively available. And I just never really realized that. I'd never cast a show. I'd never done a show like my show. And you just sit there and you're like, well, James Caan, that guy's not going to do it. And I didn't think Judd would do it. There's a lot of people that you recognize from your entire fucking life that get presented to you by the casting agency. And you start to realize well they're

not all going to do it they're not all chomping at the bit to get onto tv for two days but we auditioned michael learner who you may know for as the studio head in barton fink he's a very specific character actor did a lot of television in the 70s. And I always liked that guy. There was always something about that guy. And I wasn't entirely sold on Judd Hirsch. I thought Michael, in terms of temperament, was maybe more possible. But Judd Hirsch certainly looked like my father. We brought Michael back in. Michael played my mother's boyfriend.

And that was a whole other experience. my god that guy he's been doing acting forever and we're shooting those scenes with him and sally kellerman in that final season i think is it the final season or the season third season maybe i think it was the final season and michael was just sitting there trying to like you know the scenery, and he was like he would fuck with my head before every take and sort of get me off my footing. So I learned a lot from that guy. There are guys that when you get on camera with them, they're gunning for the center spot no matter how small their part is.

He was still quite the character. Did I ever tell that story here? Can I tell that story here? I just, uh, uh, the Michael Lerner story. Maybe I could. He, uh, you know, we were shooting in a, in a condo and, uh, video village was the bathroom in the condo. That's where the monitor was set up. And I think it was Bobcat directing. And they were in there looking at the films, right?

Or they were looking at the takes. And we were doing scenes in the condo. So after lunch, we'd come back to shoot again. And somebody had taken a dump in that bathroom to the point where everything was pretty stinky. The condo, the bathroom. It was almost, you know, we had to wait. We had to give it a few. And it was Michael.

He decided, even though he had his own trailer, to go ahead and take a dump in Video Village. And I appreciated that. He was marking his territory, and we all knew who we were dealing with at that point. The other great thing about him was that he wanted to take everything home. Anything that was on set, he's like, can I have this plant? No. What about these shoes? No. Can I take the bathrobe no no can i have this trailer no character that guy was a fucking character uh loved him and he was very difficult but i i i still love him judd hirsch my concern and i'm going to talk about this to him, I think, a bit to his face.

When they hired him was that, you know, my father is not particularly nebbishy. He's not particularly sort of like, oh, he did the Jewish thing and did this and that. He's definitely not like that. And he's emotionally erratic and, you know, runs the gamut from depressed to angry to hostile. And I was just terribly concerned that we weren't going to get there. You know, everyone was very excited. The network was excited to get Judd. We got him for a few days.

We flew him out, paid him good bread. That's the other thing I learned, which I'll tell him. That, you know, if you have a job that only takes a couple of days, and I know this for myself now, too, as an actor. Like, if you get an offer that's for, like, three days, first-class travel, and a nice chunk of change, why not take it? You know, like, who cares what it is on some level? So we start shooting with Judd, and he's doing it. He's doing, like start shooting with judd and he's doing it he's doing

like and i'm like he's doing it we gotta we gotta do something and it was one of these moments where my showrunners and bobcat who was directing i guess he was really at that time not intimidating but maybe a big get for for our show really and it was just this weird moment where it was like, just go say something. Go get him to put a little fucking edge on this thing. And he just made an adjustment like that. And it was a miraculous shift. All of a sudden, he had a slight menace to him.

He had the bipolar thing going. It was really an impressive shift uh that somebody who was a professional actor can make that adjustment the adjustment was uh just uh i i was completely stunned and i was uh excited by it and i just there was a lot of lessons to be learned between him and my uh my step, Michael Lerner. I learned some important acting lessons. One, you know, be open to adjustments. You are not what everyone thinks you are. Even if you're known for something, you can make adjustments. Good actors can make adjustments. Good actors take the work if it's just a few days and a good amount of money and not horrible. And don't shit in Video Village. These are important. These are important tools, important tools. So this is me talking to Judd and I address some of the stuff I mentioned here. And he's got a few things going on. He's got an upcoming film called I, Mordecai.

And he's also in the Apple TV Plus series Extrapolations. And he's 86. He's still, you know, all there, still doing the work. This is me and Judd. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life will i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required First. You've done the voiceover work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite a bit. I mean, I was living on it at one time. Really? Yeah.

When? 1973. Well, actually, from 68 to about 73, someone found me in New York. I believe, I mean, to me, it's still a mystery. I was kicking around off-Broadway, off-off-Broadway, actually, and I got a call from somebody to go to the Universal casting office in New York. They

had one. Yeah. From Universal Studios? Universal Studios had a casting service on Park Avenue in New York. Yeah. The lady's name, I believe, was Dorothy Kilgallen, or her sister. Huh. That sounds familiar. Yeah, because she was a sort of a scandal writer. Oh, okay, okay. The Kilgallens. And so I came into this office, and she hands me this big tome. Yeah. And she said, would you go in the other room and read that?

Yeah. And tell us if you think you are. You're the art character. So what they were looking for was a fast talking Jewish lawyer get this one New York, fast talking New York Jewish lawyer can you do it Judd?

well she didn't know who I was I have no idea how I got there it just was a phone call so I go in the other room, I'm reading, it's called The Law it's like, it was for a two and a half hour television movie and I had no's like it was for a two and a half hour television movie and i had no idea that it was going to be like who else was up for the part i had no idea i'm in new york they're casting in la yeah some of the biggest names you ever heard wanted the part

but i didn't know that until after it was done yeah and i thought oh yeah okay i read this pretty good you know i can do that sounds like me okay so i came in didn't even finish reading it was too long yeah i said yeah i think so she said good now i'd like to introduce some of the people in the in the office she takes me for a little walk around the office and said she gets to a little office tiny office with a desk and a man behind the man is ste Spielberg. Really? Spielberger was 22. He was doing Jaws. He had Jaws on his desk. Look, and she says,

and this is Mrs. Spielberg. He's going to be very big. And then we walked on. He went like this. He had the paperback, the book? No, the script. Oh, the script, okay. He was already directing.

Okay, okay. He was going to direct Jaws at that moment. Right. 1973, 4. 50 years later, which just happened this past year. Yeah. Spielberg calls me. Right. And says what I do a part on a movie he's doing about his own family.

Right. I heard about this from, who just told me about it? Tony Kushner. Tony Kushner. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Tony wrote it. So what part are you playing in the movie?

It's the most unusual, completely different part from anything in the movie. In other words, he appears, does something, leaves, never hear from him again. Your character. Yeah. He's like a dream out of somebody's head. The old Jewish oracle? That's right. Yeah.

He said, it was so cute because I never met him. I never met Stephen. Really? Never met him. One day that I saw him across the table, I never met him after that. Did you tell him that? Yeah. I said, my first words for him when I sat down to talk to him, I said, I knew you 50

years ago, you know. I said, I saw you. You were a little guy. You were this little guy across the desk. I said, I knew you 50 years ago, you know. I said, I saw you. You were a little guy. You were this little guy across the desk. He said, when? I said,

73, 74. He said, that was me. Yeah. So after we finished this movie, and I do my part, he writes me a little note

and he said, and I hope it won't be 50 more years so we can meet again. Oh, that's nice. It's amazing how lucid you are. My dad's 84 and he can't keep

his head together. No? No, it's drifting. You know, he's nice. It's amazing how lucid you are. My dad's 84 and he can't keep his head together. No? No, it's drifting. He's getting a little bit of the dementia. Oh, crap. Tell him to keep talking. Yeah, well, I try to. I call him up.

But it seems like you're the sturdy Jew. The Norman Lear, Mel Brooks, Judd Hirsch. They keep their mental faculties going. Let's put a hope on that. How long did your parents live? My mother was 95. She did have dementia, but only very late. Yeah.

You know. Something's got to happen. When I said, Mom, who am I? She answered, I know you. But the name went. Yeah, yeah. I know you. Yeah name went yeah I know you yeah

yeah and the funny part about it was I did not know for many years maybe about 70 my mother

when she was 70 or something somebody found her name my cousin found her name on a boat with her father

coming in from Russia and she never told me she came from Russia. She never spoke a word of Russian. She spoke Yiddish. But she never spoke a word of Russian. Yeah. And also sounded more New York than I do. Really? So you grew up with Yiddish in the house?

Yeah, but I mean, I didn't learn it. Right. She only spoke it, but not... So you wouldn't know what she was saying. Exactly. Exactly. She had enough people around who could speak, enough family people around. What about your father? Completely un-Yiddish person in the world. But like how old did he live to?

85. That's good though. Yeah. Both of them pretty good. He was a smoker. Really? Yeah. For real?

Like a lot? Yeah. You know, one of the originals without the filters. Like camels or luckies or whatever the hell they are? Yep. Do you grew up the whole time in New York? Yeah, most of the time. Yeah, yeah.

I was in, we moved so many times, Mark. I can't even, I mean, I- When you were a kid? I counted 13 different addresses before I was about second grade. Really? Yeah. Why? My mother was separated from my father for about five years.

I did not know this. I was five years. I did not know this. I was only two. I did not know that you're supposed to have a father. Really? All I knew was that she knew somebody who's not there anymore, who she didn't particularly care for. And you didn't see him? He came back. Oh.

When I was seven. He came back. And they were together for the rest of it? For the rest of their lives. You could not separate them. It looked like, you know, you'd have to amputate something. Did you ever find out what happened? Well, he was kind of a philanderer in a way.

In a way. Is there a spectrum of philandering? In a way, there is. Then, we're talking about the 40s, sweetheart. 40s. But either you do it or you don't, right? You found out about it in the movies. That's what it looked like.

Yeah. You didn't know it in real life. Right, okay. Philandering in real life was something. I mean, divorce was not a word that was supposed to be pandered about as far as a fact was concerned. You could not talk about a divorce in a household. Right, right.

It was illegitimate. So he got in trouble, got caught. Well, yeah, of course. Right. It was illegitimate. So he got in trouble, got caught. Well, yeah, of course. I mean, he went off and stayed with this other woman. But the funny part about it is I was doing a play. This is the funniest thing that's ever happened. You know who Herb Gardner was? The writer?

Right. Yeah. So he wrote a couple of plays. I did all of his work. Okay. So Herbie was the funniest probably the funniest humorist i've ever heard who wrote and uh he wrote a play called i'm that rapaport yeah that i did yeah we won the tony that was like your big your big uh uh theater

stage break that was it no well it was yes but I've been there before but not that big what year is that 85 okay he is then writing another play after that it's called conversations with my father right now this is a autobiographical thing that he lived through with his father who's he lives in a bar downtown way downtown yeah and there was a boy there was somebody who lived with them, a boarder. Yeah. And he wanted to make sure that he had, because I told him my story about when I was a kid,

we lived in Brighton Beach, we lived with a boarder. My father wasn't there yet. And I said, yeah, I know, we lived with a boarder. He said, can I interview your mother? Yeah, okay. So he goes on to interview my mother. She starts to tell him this tale, which to this day, I think like,

my mother must have been on another fucking planet. I have no idea what she was talking about. You didn't know the story? No. I said, Mom, tell him.

Tell him, who was Mr. Rogers? She said, well, that was our place. I said, no, it was Mr. Rogers' place.

We were the boarders. She said, I don't think so. She had to make up the story. So he then asked her more questions about her life. And she talked to him about her husband. My father was there already. This was late in life. This is late in life.

Yeah. So she said that he dared to bring home a woman at one time to borrow pots and pans from my mother. Yeah. So that they can have a dinner someplace. And she said, she said, I couldn't believe the bum wanted pots and pans. Mine? Mine? Yeah.

So he said, so what did you do, Mrs. Hirsch? She said, I hit her over the head with a pan. Now, this is complete fiction. Yeah. I I said and what happened? And she died. I said mom you killed the woman? She said yeah. Huh. So that's where she was. Yeah. So Herb was sitting there. Well I mean at least she's the one. Writing it down as if to say this is fact. Yeah yeah yeah. At least she won in her head. She did. She won all the time. She took care of business. Oh, yeah. She won.

Did you have siblings? One brother. Younger? Older. Older. He passed away? Yeah. How old was he?

79. Oh, yeah? Yeah. What was his occupation? He was in the Army. I mean, he was a guy that really tried to become, oh, him because of our original i i followed him i was his shadow because he was older right and i was very young i was very i was like but everything from two to three to four to five to six was me and him because he went to school before i did

yeah if he went out of the house we lived in awful neighborhoods mark you have to understand brighton beach that was the best place. Yeah. In the Bronx. Yeah. All I knew was that we lived in rooming houses. Yeah. We never even had our own. We never had furniture.

Huh. So, and this was your mom just schlepping you around? Yeah. From place to place? When did you level off? We lived in two basements.

Really? One of them was in Brighton Beach. And your father wasn't kicking in or nothing? He just like left you all hanging? I think she was on childcare. Okay. Child support or something.

Was she working? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes. My mother, yes. When she went to work, man, I'm telling you, she could type 200 words a minute. Right. So she went to work.

Yeah. And not then. I mean, at the very beginning. So when your father came back, did you get some stability? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I mean, like, you beginning. So when your father came back, did you get some stability? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I mean, like, you know.

Got a house and everything else? He was a talented electrician. Uh-huh. You know. Yeah. He worked on the, what was that project called down in Tennessee? The Tennessee Valley Authority. You remember?

They didn't have electricity down in Tennessee back in the late 40s and 50s. It was a whole development, which eventually turned into the development for the atomic bomb. Really? Yeah. In Tennessee? Started out there. Tennessee Valley Authority.

Don't ask me how come. But your dad went down there to work on it? Yeah. Now, when he came back, was he a changed man? Was he a beaten man? Was he a contrite man? No. Did you feel like that their entire relationship

was now him just trying to- Well, I knew why they didn't get along. I mean, that was obvious. But that was because of what my feelings for him. It was similar to my mother's. Right. Because you didn't have them either. Yeah.

It was kind of like, you know, egotistic. He was one of 11. He was the youngest of 11 children. Really? New Yorker. Way back. Born in New York. Born in New York.

Huh. And your mom was born elsewhere? Russia. Yeah. That i come from russia you do yeah not you no but my family i did the finding your root show and i found out oh yeah did you go to that guy yeah did you go to him no i should shouldn't i yeah did you see pictures yeah a few yeah they all had beards beards in my i guess i come from a tailor they They were tailors, yeah. Do you know that was the original name for me on Taxi? Tailor? Mm-hmm.

Really? First reading. First reading? Yeah. I don't know. I get these things that just run through me. Yeah. They come out of my mouth.

Yeah. I said, I can't play tailor. The writers looked at me and said, oh? I said, no, I can't play tailor. It's not a name for me. I can't play him. I said, who's playing? I said, it doesn't describe.

He said, okay, what would you like to be called? And I had to think fast. Yeah. I thought of the funniest guy I knew in junior high school. Yeah. Now, I don't know him anymore. Yeah. Nor after just junior high school do I know him.

His name was Rieger. Yeah. His name was Stanley Rieger. Yeah. His name was Stanley Rieger. Yeah. Stanley, if you're listening to me now, please call. Yeah. He was the funniest guy. It's time.

Yeah. He and I were the two funny guys in junior high school. Right. Okay? Yeah. And we'd go on the loudspeakers as well. And so immediately he came to mind, German Jew, German Jew. Okay, Rieger, spell it right.

Yeah. Oh, I remember he told me How to spell it R-I-E-G-E-R And they said Oh we like that Okay And that was that One minute it took

To change the name That was originally Written in taxi To my name To the name I chose Alex was the And you really Couldn't play Taylor

No Huh It happened to me Once more Yeah In Independence Day The first day Of Independence Day

We're marching around looking for makeup for my hair. And on a stairway with the writer, he had me down as Moshe. The last name escapes me, but it was Moshe. The first time I said, oh, I can't play Moshe. Yeah. He said, what? I said, no, no, no, I just can't play Moshe.

That does not describe me. I said, look, I'm much too young for the part. Yeah. I was Jeff Goldblum's father. Goldblum was 44. I was about 60-something. Yeah. I said, I'm too young for the part.

I said, I'm going to make him a guy who looks that way. Yeah. And acts that way. Yeah. Much too valuable for a guy his age. Yeah. I said, that's who I want to play. Yeah.

He said, oh, yeah, yeah, right, right. I said, so I can't play Moishe. Moishe, oh, my God, who's going to take me to some fucking dopey place, you know, in Europe where they called you Moishe, but your real name was Morris. Yeah. So I said, so who would you like to be?

And I thought, oh, I'd like to be Julius Caesar. Julius. Julius. Yeah. So they said oh my uncle's name is Julius and that was it that was it

that's hilarious yeah and it makes a big difference in your mind big huh I'm telling you if you give me a name to play

I squirm huh if it's if it doesn't really fit I mean if it's if it's something that I don't know anything about like I played a guy by the name of Knapek,

K-N-A-P-E-K. I don't care if his last name was Knapek. I have no idea. Yeah. As long as his first name wasn't Moshe. Yeah, yeah. Right. But to move into a character,

you've got, even if it's a fictional character, the name has got to make sense to you. Yeah. Genetically, somehow. It's because mine doesn't make sense to me. Judd. Yeah. You see, to me, there was no-

Was that what it was? Nobody by the name of Judd in my history. I've never come across another one, except the guy on television who did the news one time out in Los Angeles. Yeah. And then Judd Apatow. Where's that name come from? If you want to know what it really comes from, it's a it's a very old um takeoff on the same name done 16 different way judah oh okay judah yeah yeah yeah all of them mean

jew yeah oh really that's what they mean they all mean the same and that's an awkward name jew hirsch right it's like. It's like the names for... But you can play that one. I could. I won't. You're doing it now. No, I got very, very... I don't know.

I just didn't like it. I didn't like... My name was over too fast. Judd Hirsch. I said I need a couple of syllables. I need a couple of syllables. I need a couple of syllables. So I decided in my first part, and this was like before I could even get on a stage,

I had to do something on a stage, but it was like no one knows what we were doing. I said, I got to change my name. You can make a program? Yeah, we'll have a program. I said, I'll change my name. I'm going to call myself Aaron Judd. But then I get a double syllable first name.

I don't like Judd anyway. Hirsch, never. Okay. Aaron Judd. No Hir get a double syllable first name I don't like Judd anyway Hirsch never okay Aaron don't know Hirsch's no Hirsch's so I said Aaron Judd so I forgot I forgot they forgot to put it in the program from then on I had to be Judd Hirsch so you were going to change your name to Aaron Judd and then like because they put Judd Hirsch in the program you're like that's me well In an off-Broadway production or whatever? Off, off, off. So it didn't even matter, but in your head it mattered. Yeah.

It's on paper. It's done. Yeah, yeah. Right now, I mean, up till now, I still think that it was a mistake for me to go on with this particular name. I mean, I can't help you. I can't help it, Mark. It goes to feelings. Yeah, okay. Someone says, why did you become an actor? It goes to feelings. I mean, you can't help you. I can't help it, Mark. It goes to feelings. Yeah, okay.

Someone says, why did you become an actor? It goes to feelings. I mean, you can still change it. There's still time, Judd. You want me to call you? I can start calling you Aaron right now. Okay. Listen, Aaron.

Well, the middle name's even worse. Forget about it. What's your middle name? Seymour. Oh, boy. My dad's middle name's Ralph. Oh, there's a name. Ralph. Don't hear it much anymore no ralph no so the english took it over yeah what uh that's true when do you start doing the acting though like how is that how does that fit into the family

program well that that's the other mystery about me i never should have been one um but like was your i mean like that wasn't a thing for a a kid, the Jewish son of an electrician to do. Didn't they want better things for you? Well, they were scared. You better get a job. That's right. In some way. But, you know, my father was an industrial person.

He was an electrician. Yeah. And a very, very good one. What happened was I did not respond to my family for anything. Yeah. In other words, I didn't follow anybody. Yeah. There was nobody to follow, really.

How long did the resentment against your father last? All my life. To this day, right now. Almost, almost. Really? Yeah. Huh. You remember, the understanding of really the person that you have feelings about comes much later.

What do you mean? The reality of those feelings, which supposedly, if you don't give them the idea to be themselves, you're making them your reaction to them. I was thinking about this the other day. And also, we only know our parents as what they give us. So, you know, the rest of it, you know, for better or for worse, we don't fucking know. You know, you just know the experience you had with them. And if you've decided they're bad news, even without even a backstory, that's what you're going to, you know.

Well, here, if you realize that your parents, they don't know how to give you something that's valuable. They don't know that. They can only tell you. It's like, if my father was a musician, he would teach me how to play. Maybe. If my father or mother was a composer or an actress, I would, I'm telling you right now, I would have been an actor right away. Huh. Okay.

Neither one of them went to theater. Neither one of them had any particular knowledge of anything in the arts. Not sophisticated people. Zero, zero. Right. Zero. But then, so. No reading?

Well, the resentment I had had to do with, of course, family stuff, how you were brought up. But also, he was gone for five years. Yeah, yeah. And we were poor. Yeah. I resented being were brought up. But also, he was gone for five years. Yeah, yeah. And we were poor. Yeah. I resented being poor. Yeah. I mean, the resentment was tremendous because I said to my mother at one time, can't we

have our own furniture? Yeah. And she said, oh, we will. We will. And I thought, okay. Yeah. Very positive woman. So that one was an early resentment.

Yeah, yeah. But it went on, went on, went on because of more or less how we treated each other but here's what happens eventually you start to realize the innocence of the person they're not doing

what you think they're doing on purpose to you they're doing it because that's who they are right and when you when you

then I started so I get these feelings very recently I go oh dad you weren't such a bad guy you couldn't help it it was because of me

because I couldn't be with you I could not be that person I couldn't you had no idea who I should be

nor did I by the way but then again we can't blame someone for being ignorant of who they're supposed to be. You know, I think of it because I have a kid. Yeah.

And I think, I want to impress this boy with the idea that you could become something other than what people think you should. When I was a kid, the only thing I knew was, get through school. What's your interest? Well, I took these silly tests which say, I'm scientifically interested. Yeah. Mathematically interested.

Okay. So I had to go to engineering school. You did? I had to. Yeah. I had to. It was the only thing that made sense. Yeah.

They were telling me. Yeah. Society was telling me, this is the test you took. This is what it says. It says you prefer to be. And I thought, bullshit.

So this is after high school? Yeah. I have a degree in physics do you really yes that helped in independence day right it helps everywhere does it help everywhere oh it damn does really how because i want to be an architect oh so it helps in your dreams i build my houses yes i do did you build your house yes oh so not with my hands no No, but on the paper. Yeah. And physics helps with understanding. Big deal. Huh.

Big. So are you talking sketches or actual plans? No, knowing. Yeah. Knowing the civil engineering part about how to put things together. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? I mean, you don't walk ignorantly into a design.

Right. You start with how big something should be and what a space looks like. So it's a hobby almost. Yeah, the part of it, of course, is the experiential part about standing, feeling in the space so that you know, for instance, I mean, how far should your kitchen counter be from whatever's behind you? Aren't these established? Well, if you make a foot and a half, you're going to be squirming, right? Squished, sure, yeah.

They are established. Yeah. The minimums are established. Yeah, okay. Okay. But you can sort of riff on it. But this is what I love. Yeah.

Okay, so I love this. Yeah, okay. So I never, the acting part was the expression of wanting to be believed. Okay, so what by? I just wanted to be believed. I had this tremendous feeling about the honesty and the truth. We all have one of those.

I was 20. Okay. So what do you mean about honesty and the truth? Somewhere. Because, I guess because of living the way I did in that family, I never believed anybody, because they couldn't prove their sincerity to me. They couldn't say, you know why I think that?

They couldn't say that. So they were selfish people? Yeah, ignorantly selfish, because they couldn't do anything else. And also, your dad was gone, so why would you believe, you know, you probably didn't know half of it. Well, when he came back, he was like,

he was just full of himself. I mean, he had no, there was nothing for him to donate anymore. Even at the beginning, I was seven years old. Yeah. You know, it was a fight. So the idea, let me just process it. The idea of wanting to act was to be believed.

That's right. And how does that manifest itself? What do you say to yourself in the morning? Like, I don't feel like I'm whole or I'm seen or, you know. No. No. It only means that if I'm asked to do something. Yeah.

Like a part. Okay. Or anything. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. I'll include politics. Or anything.

Yeah. Anything. Yeah. I'll include politics. The kind of absolute truth that I think really is underlying a thought or an actual thing. Yeah. Is either true or somewhat true. Yeah.

Or what I know to be the truth. Right. I'm willing to say that maybe there's another idea. But if I can convince you that the reason that I think it's true is the reason, right? Yeah. Just like newspapers do. Yeah. I mean, you have to believe what they write. Yeah.

They just say sources. Right. Sources tell me, right? I'm my own source. Right. By virtue of listening to others. Okay. So I said, if I was, let's say, let's say I become the mayor of New York.

Yeah. Right? I used to have these fantasies. Yeah. Because I know New York. That was one of them? One of them was. Sure.

Only because I was opposite the mayor. It's like, oh, wait a minute. If he only thought this, man. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, no. Don't put those machines on the street, asshole. Put these machines on the street.

Yeah. So I thought, then I would have to be believed even more. I would have to prove. Now, this comes from mathematics, by the way. My study, mathematics and science, makes me a person that proves. I love proof.

Geometry was the best subject I ever had in my life because there's a proof. There's an absolute answer. Yeah. If you could prove something to me, I love it. Well, it's interesting because with acting, acting is fundamentally pretending. That's right.

Yeah. That's right. But remember, what you're doing is conveying the truth about something. That's what actors do. Right. They're stuck. They have to.

I mean, if they want to do something else, they don't have a choice, okay? You can't all of a sudden decide to play fake. You have to. I mean, if they want to do something else, they don't have a choice. Okay? You can't all of a sudden decide to play fake. You can't. No. That's not within the human being's ability. I can't say, if the line is, you know, why do you come here?

Yeah. Why do you come here? Always have a bad time. Right. I would have to wonder how that is true even if i thought even if the other character didn't think it was true even if i was a joke no matter what it is okay the idea is to make it true for you to engage with the process that's right yeah well i mean where did you learn like i mean andy andy kaufman all right yeah what

was that he he did all fake things, right? He had to do fake things to make you think that they were true. But it was so obvious they weren't. Yeah. But look at it. Look at it. If he could fool you into thinking something might be true... Right.

He wins. Yeah. Well, that was a lot of what he was doing. I wrote a memorial of him. Yeah? Yeah. In Rolling Stone Magazine in 1984 when he died. Yeah. Were you guys close?

Mm-mm. But he asked me to write it. I didn't ever write anything. I said, but I didn't really know him that well. They said, write it anyway. So I went to my friend Herb Gardner and I said, they're asking me to write 1,500 words about Andy Kaufman. And I don't know where, it's in Rolling Stone

Magazine. I said, I don't know. I don't know him. He said, write that And I don't know where, it's in Rolling Stone magazine. I said, I don't know. I don't know him. He said, write that. I don't know him. Okay. But your experience with him was, you had experience with him. Fascinating. Right?

I mean, you were with him a lot. Fascinating. Oh, yeah, yeah. But remember, he didn't show up a lot. Who knew him, though? That's the big question. A lot of people say they do. A couple of people, right? I mean, he didn't show up a lot. Who knew him, though? That's a big question. A lot of people say they do. A couple of people, right?

I mean, some people say they do. Yeah. But I don't believe they really do, because I don't think he really wanted anybody to know him that well. He was as ordinary as you and me. Yeah. All right? Yeah.

I'm talking about to understand. Yeah. I mean, you would not be surprised by anything about him. Right, sure. You know, there's nothing. Out of character. He wasn't like, all of a sudden, he's a great basketball player. Wait about him. Right, sure. You know, there's nothing. Out of character. He wasn't like, all of a sudden, he's a great basketball player. Wait a minute.

Yeah, yeah. No, he wouldn't surprise you that way. Right. Ordinariness, in his mind, was where it comes from. But to dream was the other part. The whole dream. It's an entire dream. He put the Rockettes on stage.

They weren't the Rockettes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He put the Mormon Tabernacle Choir on stage. I was there. I put the Rockettes on stage. They weren't the Rockettes. Yeah. He put the Mormon Tabernacle Choir on stage. I was there. I saw the concert. Yeah. That's not the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, but he dressed them up.

They sang like it. And you go like this. Where, Carnegie Hall? No, here in Los Angeles. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was the first concert I'd seen him in. And he did everything.

He did Mighty Mouse and all that. And I'm going like this, well, if it's not the Rockettes, why the hell did he put them there to call them the Rockettes? He knows we all know it's not the Rockettes. So he's saying to you, what if they were?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just extend yourself. Yeah, sure. Why not believe? Why not? Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's his magic. So when you got this belief thing,

so I mean, it sounds like over time that you sort of honed this approach with some acting education, right? Like where did you first train? I went to acting school. Yeah, where? I went to three of them. I went to, I studied with the Burkhoff Studio in New York.

Yeah. You know, with Bill Hickey. Oh, Hic York, you know, with Bill Hickey. Oh, Hickey, yeah. I remember Bill Hickey. Bill Hickey, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you could do that part.

He was wonderful. He was wonderful. I've only seen, I saw him in a couple movies, right? I think he was in Wise Blood and he was in Pritzy's Honor. You're right. What did he teach you? Innocence. Hmm. He was in Pritzy's honor. You're right. What did he teach you? Innocence. The innocence of what you as a character knows and doesn't know.

Meaning that, see, I describe it another way. I say in every good drama or comedy, there is surprise. That's what really runs it. You either run up to the surprise or you pronounce it and then show it. You know what I'm saying? I know you in comedy, you must know that when you do something on stage, you're going to

wow them in a moment. They don't know it's coming. You want that little twist. You blow their mind. You feel it coming. It's the nature of comedy. A little bit of surprise or else a little bit of absurdity or physical things. I mean, there's a few ways to go, but when you're doing it the thinky way. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that surprises anybody that you come up with it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

You don't want them to know where you're going. No. But you do want them to go like, oh, I never thought about that. If you say something like, think of this. You're not going to tell them to think of something that they already thought about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, yeah.

Like, what did I open with? Last night I was on stage and I said, you know, I got COVID. Finally. You know, it's simple. Do you want to know something? There's a lot of people that are going to be able to say that. Oh, I know. I got it.

You do too? Yeah. With the bad one or the recent one? something there's a lot of people that are going to be able to say that oh i know i got it you do too yeah uh with the uh the the bad one or the the recent one yeah yeah the one that one that makes you laugh you got it yeah yeah thank god i got it now and my timing was right on this one yeah it's always like saying instead of oh my god oh my cron yeah oh my cron yeah yeah yeah so so you do hickey and he teaches you about innocence and then where else did you study? The reason that I'm saying this is because to be believed. Yeah. Mark, if you want to be believed in acting, you really must consider the fact that what you're saying is new.

Oh, yeah. And you could not have... Remember, you rehearsed something, so you do know it. Yeah. You must rehearse so you don't know it. I mean, you must act so you don't know it. So you're actually trying to put things away

in order to get to, I don't know it. Yeah. I don't know what's coming. You can't do moment by moment if you already know it. Or if you're thinking about it. And that's the one big problem that actors have.

Yeah. If they rehearse something and they know it, some of them will, the bad ones, I should say, will project it. Right. Will make more of it than it should have been made of. Well, what about this whole, the acting built on choices? Well, that is the part of the choices you can choose the one

that that won't know it the most although you could choose the most innocent part of that person right you're playing a killer yeah that's like playing a killer you don't know what in the world made you a killer because it's not written yeah so you take it upon yourself to say well you know something i have the right to kill let me think think why, because I hated something so much and it's still going on. Yeah. All right, maybe it's about women or something like that,

you know, with these crazy people who kill. Yeah. Now you can make it up, but then you say to yourself, what's innocent about that? You didn't choose it just because you had choices to make. Yeah.

That you were a killer, right? Yeah. So you go to the one that made it more true. You know, if i say to myself you know what why why why am i physically the way i am yeah i say you know why because i did some things that i really probably shouldn't have done i've i fell a few times yeah right yeah just recently i fell yeah i'm saying did this shorten my life it could have so it makes me think that if I had a choice at that time I would have been smarter in saying no no no don't do that

don't do that that's in real life but in acting you get to choose you really do and where were the other schools did you study with any of the method people yeah Vivica Lindfors.

I don't know if you remember her. She was a very beautiful, kind of Swedish, foreign person. She was in a school. She happened to be teaching. She was a wonderful actress. Like Uta Hagen. She was very similar. Yeah.

And she just happened to be the one who was there. And we were doing improvisation. Yeah. And she would somehow, in some way, take over the improvisation to show you something who was there. And we were doing improvisation. Yeah. And she would somehow, in some way, to take over the improvisation to show you something that was daring.

So let's say a kid says, let me see your watch, and he takes her to watch, and he's going to throw it out the window, the real window, in the real room. Yeah, yeah.

And she'd wonder why the actor didn't do it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. How far can you go in an improvisation that makes it more real? And then you deal

with Andy Kaufman, who was willing to do, go to the extreme for improvisation. He did a part on Taxi. He had two contracts in Taxi. One was for a character, the lounge lizard. Tony Clifton. Tony Clifton. And he came in and was Tony Clifton.

We had to promise that we would not call him Andy. We had to promise that we would be faked out by the fact that he wanted us not to know. All right? Yeah. We did this before he arrived. Yeah. And a couple of the actors in Taxi went, oh, bullshit. I'm not going to do that.

You know what I'm thinking? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Of course. Okay. All right. All right. We'll do that.

I think he gave it away with the voice. I don't even like the character. But the character that he has has to be hated, has to be the biggest pain in the ass in the world to be even on stage. He's playing a character in Taxi, by the way. He's been hired to play the brother of Danny DeVito. This is the episode.

He never said a line. He never did anything to do the shot, the character. Yeah. He just fooled around as the character. And we're all standing on the side. And I was standing there producing. I said, we're shooting on Friday.

This is Wednesday. What the hell are we going to do? He said, we work from Monday to Friday. I said, we got a camera rehearsal tomorrow. He said, what do you want me to do? And I said, what do you mean? We don't have a show. He said, what do you want me to do?

So I just walked away from him and walked up to Andy and I said, get out of here. And he had an argument with me. He said, I have a contract. I said, my contract is bigger than yours. Now get the fuck out of here. And as far as I'm concerned, and I believe it's on tape. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I actually threw him out. Off the stage. While I was doing it, I knew he wanted me to do it. That's the end of his character. That's where his character has to go. He has to get thrown off stage. While I was doing it, I knew he wanted me to do it. That's the end of his character. That's where his character has to go.

He has to get thrown off stage. Yeah. No matter where he does it, they have to throw things at him, tell him, boo, get him out of here. So I played the part he actually wrote.

He set you up. He set me up. So you're coming up in the rough in raw 70s of off-Broadway. It must have been pretty exciting. Who were you working with? What was going on? A lot of weird shows? Well, I became a member of a thing called the Circle Repertory Company kind of accidentally.

Yeah. We had a big play. It had 13 characters. It was called The Hot Ale Baltimore, written by a magnificent playwright Lanford Wilson oh yeah and Lanford Wilson was the leading American playwright

at the time from the off-Broadway scene that happened in the village yeah yeah it all happened there yeah and then it became a company

and I just fell into the company got this one part and then after that all of a sudden the writers of the New York Times the people like that

said wow this is something three years what year is that? after that, all of a sudden, the writers of the New York Times and people like that said, well, this is something. Yeah. Three years. What year is that? 72. Really? Yeah.

So then you had a three-year run with that circle, right? I didn't stay. I stayed about seven months, but that's because I had to do something else. But I stayed a long time. Well, we did it at the Circle. Then we moved to an off-Broadway theater. And it ran for three years? Ran for three years. Wow. It was the longest- an off-Broadway theater. And it ran for three years? Ran for three years.

Wow. It was the longest running off-Broadway play at the time. Yeah. Not anymore. But the movies came up in the middle of it all anyway, like Ordinary People. Yeah. Ordinary People, that's a great movie. I watched it not too long ago.

Yeah. He did great work in that. It was Redford's first directorial. How was he? He was wonderful. It was Redford's first directorial. How was he? He was wonderful. He was truly wonderful. I mean, you have to understand why. He was like me.

I understood him so much because when he said, when he looked as if it was a cliche, he was so adamantly aware of cliche. In terms of like what, your character? I'll give you an example. The character as written in the book Yeah. is a obese psychologist who does not know how to operate his own sound machine

or something like that. Yeah. And something goes off and he can't fix it in the middle of a session. Yeah. It was funny. Yeah.

And I said, so he's, I said, I'm much more capable, I said, as a person. He said, well, I said, also he's obese. He said, we'll put some sweaters on you. All right. Okay. Yeah. And then I said, you know, what if I smoked? Yeah. He said, no, no, no, no. I said, why not? He said, but that's a cliche. I said said no no no I said why not he said but that is cliche I said no no it's not I forgot I stopped yeah I'm not smoking

anymore but I will I said because it's gotta be a fault it's gotta be a fault the kid sees in me and somewhere along the line says what do you do that why you know I mean faultiness is the thing that if you look at the script, the kid should never have come back after his first session. You would not expect it. Right. From this guy who has like 16 kids like him and says, so what's your problem? Yeah. Then the surprise comes as to who I play, what the actual psychologist was.

The man who feels something for a kid. Yeah. Who actually has an emotion. And that's the surprise. That's the big thing. That's why it was successful. That's why everyone loved the character. But it was the writing.

I take no credit. It was the writing. And when I saw that I said, Bob let me just do this. I said I know it's going to be the length of the cigarettes every time i get on the ground don't worry about that okay and i did it yeah and i realized now it was a smart thing to do it was smart because i had to i had to be faulty to make that script work i had to be faulty because we should not we should know that that kid never he should have left after the

first session because remember he was he was too emotional not to yeah or i should say uh um wary but you also had you also play with a certain amount of uh natural vulnerability yes yeah i mean that's just sort of what you bring that's the that's the innocence. Right. Oh, yeah. The vulnerability is the innocence. Allowing something to happen to you. You don't know what's going to happen to you. Yeah.

But allow it and it'll inform your next move. That's what Hickey taught. Well, there was a time, like, it was interesting culturally that there was a time in the 70s

where Jewish leading men were, like, a thing. Yeah. Extracted from New York. A lot of. Yeah, extracted from New York. A lot of the stuff came out of New York. Think about it. Think about Jimmy Kahn, Elliot Gould. I mean, like, you know.

Big. Yeah, huge. And let's call it by its real name, Expressive. Uh-huh. All right? Yeah. They loved the expression. Yeah.

It was not, there was no fear. Yeah. All right? Yeah. Say it. Go ahead, say it. Yeah, right. No?

Do you know James? You can't say fuck, but say it. Yeah. Say something? Yeah. Say it. Go ahead. Say it. Yeah, right. No? Do you know James? You can't say fuck, but say it. Yeah. Say something like that. Do you know James Caan? No, never met him. Oh, my God. He's a character dude.

Yeah. I respect his reason for doing what he does. Yeah. You know? He actually played a part that I played. What? I was in a play called Chapter Two. Yeah, right.

Neil Simon wrote Chapter Two as a play. Okay? It went from here to Broadway. Mm-hmm. They then were going to do the movie, and I went like this. Oh, well, sure, why not? Yeah. And they went, not him.

In other words, it was like, it's that interior thing. Yeah. Now, you want to make $7 million, you want to use Judd Hirsch. Right. That was in the 70s, yeah. So, Khan did it. Yeah. And let me tell you something.

It's not his fault, but it was awful. No, I mean, wrong man. Yeah. Wrong play. Yeah. Wrong movie. Uh-huh. Wrong everything.

It was a complete failure. It did? It tanked? Failed. Failed completely. And you were happy? You don't see that played anymore. No, I wasn't happy. The only thing

I was happy about was I didn't do the movie. Because I knew, but if they were going to do it that way, it was never going to play. Yeah. So, it's interesting that you do different variations of a certain character, it seems.

Well, you know what happens. They hook on to that, and television has a way of repeating itself, copying each other. You know, oh, that was a success. Look at all the detectives that came after that. But you played my dad. You played Garland's dad. You played Jeff Goldblum's dad. That's later.

I know. Mark, that's only recently. I once asked you this. Am I? I was. I once asked you this. Was I like your dad? Were you like my dad? Yeah. No.

What was interesting? I was talking about this with my producer today is that I learned a couple of things because I'd never done any television. I'd never produced television before my show. And, you know, we're casting it. And, you know, you keep coming up like maybe Judge Hirsch could be a dad. I'm like, he's not going to be my dad. Judge Hirsch is not going to do this. Right right and i wouldn't do it right yeah and and then i thought like he's not like my dad he's too like you know he's he's like uh you know kinder gentle you know he's a little too jewy like like in my mind i i thought you were your character

right that's right and i didn't think you would do it but then i realized like you know actors like to work and it's two days work and you. And if you pay them enough money and you fly them out, they're going to do it. They'll do whatever you fucking want to do. Which is what you did. Yeah. So we get you, right? And then, like, I remember because Bobcat Goldthwait's directing the first one that you do. Yeah.

And I'm watching the monitors. I'm like, you know, he's doing it. He's being too cute. You know, he's – and it was funny because I went up to Bobby. I said, we got to... He's got to, you know, be a little edgier. And he's like, what do you want me to do? I'm like, he's an actor.

Go tell him. And then when you adjusted... Well, you know what I did? You were like my dad. I knew you guys from the script. Yeah. I kind of knew what you wanted. I knew you guys from the script.

Yeah. I kind of knew what you wanted. This unexplainable, gruff, ridiculous person. Yeah. Choices in life. Yeah, right. Crazy choices in life. But daring.

Right, yeah. Right? Yeah. An adventurer. Yeah. So I thought, what if my father was like that? You know, I would love it if my father was like that. Yeah. The absurdity. Yeah. I'll play. He couldn was like that. The absurdity, I'll play.

He couldn't play that. Right, right, right. But he could play, I'm much more interesting than you think I am. So I said, all right, I'll do that. I'll just do my father doing that. Interesting. Yeah. So you have to put a lot into place when you, like, approach a role, huh?

Yeah, it's easy. I mean, it's easier. Well, I mean, I saw, I was watching how you worked, you know, and we talked a lot on set, you know, like, you know, you take the lines in and then you start to kind of like, you know, run it through your head until it sort of becomes your own. Right? Yeah. But make sure that it at least has use in the piece.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, I loved it. I loved it. I think we had a good time over there. We did. I did.

I did. I remember this one time when we went up to somebody's apartment. You were doing something called amends. Oh, an amends. You remember that one? Sure, yeah. And we go up there and I pull a gun on this guy. And then we have to run out of the place.

And it was like a long flight of stairs. Now, I'm not young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I ran so fast down those stairs that I ran into the camera. Oh, right, right, right. At the bottom of the stairs. I ran into the camera and I went, this is silly.

I went, yay, look at that. I ran so fast. Yeah, you did it. I did it. That's the innocence again. Can't do it now. I did it. Yeah, and then we had to jump in the trailer and drive that big thing.

But like when you work with these guys, like, you know, I mean, well, like I just saw you. That's right. You were in um the uncut gem sing yeah particularly it's a crazy bar i mean i don't understand that i i thought the picture was very unusual it is unusual very unusual did you figure did you feel like it was the most unusual thing you did one of them really not that i did the picture itself um i i met the two guys five years before i didn't know they told me this they said they came to new york i was living in manhattan yeah and i said so what did we do he said you

took us to that little restaurant on the corner i said oh yeah yeah i know that place i said so what happened then nothing i said what do you mean he said we just talked to you about maybe there's a part that we're i said what was the part, this one, but we didn't have it yet. They hadn't written it yet. Yeah. I said, so was I patient? He said, no. I said, did I have this particular look?

What the fuck are you doing with me now? Yeah, yeah. What do you want from me? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, though, because it was like, it was a different, like, it was an odd role for you. I mean, you didn't do like what you usually do but it was a jewish role yeah for some reason there was there it was a rawness to the whole thing well there's some cuts made yeah movie yeah it was the first time that i had realized that and there's going to be an awful lot of shooting and a lot of cutting

you know what i mean i knew it because they would shoot every they would shoot every i don't know a little a little much yeah remember they're both doing the movie. One's doing a boom. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we shot the ceremony scene. It was the, what do you call it, Passover ceremony.

Yeah. All right? Yeah. And I thought, wow, this is going to make the character have a home. Yeah. He's not going to be the Adam Sandler character we're looking at. We're going to all of a sudden see the real home. Yeah. He's not going to be the Adam Sandler character we're looking at. We're going to all of a sudden see the real side. Yeah.

He comes from there. Yeah. So I thought, oh, this is good. This is good. This is good. I'm going to play the father. Yeah. Why not?

Yeah. Not even the father. I'm playing the stepfather. I wasn't his father. Right. I was the girl's father. So I liked the idea. They didn't have an idea.

Their idea was to see what happens. Oh, yeah? But they called me by some dumb name because it was in their family. Do you like working like that? Yeah, sure, why not? Yes, yes, I do. I do.

If anything can happen, great, great. I mean, they'd sent in some kid to look for the matzah, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the kid and I thought, oh, he's not going to do it well. He's just not going to do it well. He's going to go and he's going to say,

oh, here it is. And I'm going to think, no, no, no, no. Let's find out what I can do here. I said, send him to me. Yeah, yeah. So he said, okay. So he sent it to me. I said, go, go, go where it is.

You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I gave him this little instruction. Yeah. All right. So you'll see it in the movie, but it's like a half a second right

but it was the one that I thought of because it's a little bit better yeah you know it has more and did you like Sandler oh yes

he's a very giving actor I don't know if anybody knows this yeah yeah he's a very giving actor yeah he loves to be able

to do something with you yeah not by himself not by himself by any means. Right. So I remember when we were doing my show, your kid was young. What do you mean my kid was young? He had a young son.

Yeah. He was pretty new. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's adopted. He's now 20. Oh, okay. He'll be 21. Yeah.

So he might have been 15. He's plugging. He'll be 21. Yeah. So he might have been 15. He's plugging. He's really plugging. Yeah. He's now on his own. Yeah. In Washington. Yeah. Upstate Washington. And, uh, you know, listen, I was too. Yeah.

Struggler. Yeah. I think if anybody helps me too much, I'm not going to make it. Don't do the too much. Don't do the too much. I could do much more than my father could do for me. Yeah. My father couldn't do anything for me.

I'm a self-made man. I could not do anything. Nobody could do anything for me. Yeah. This is not a brag. This is a necessity. Do you have friends? Friends of what?

In general? No, not too many. Not too many. I don't ask anything from anybody. I really, I don't know. As I said- Because I remember talking about that, like, you know, like, because you've worked with all these amazing people,

but like, it never seemed like you really talked to any of them. Well, it's like two, it's like, if you look for the truth you're not going to find it so easily in these days now you know uh when i look at what's happening in this country yeah it hurts a lot it hurts me a lot i came from when my whole society all the people that i grew up to know as a child and as an adult had some kind of courage. There was always somebody in our milieu, in my friend or somebody's friend that we knew about.

There was always a thing called courage that you always matched. You said, you had to be American to have that kind of courage because you had to be behind the eight ball. That's why we became this country. We're so proud of ourselves. We can win any war. You know what I mean? Sure, but there was a sense of unity, right?

Definitely. And a sense of this country standing for something, you know, embracing. It does not exist. Why are we doing here? I don't know, dude. something, you know, embracing. It does not exist. What are we doing here? I don't know, dude. I don't know. Who are these people? I don't know. Mark. I don't know. Were you in the armed forces? Yes.

Which one? Army. Yeah? I didn't fly and fight. Went to basic training. Yeah. There was no war. Oh, yeah. And did you join? No, we were going to be drafted, but it changed to numbers. Yeah. So my number came up.

Yeah. And you didn't have to go anywhere? What year is that? I went to New Jersey and Missouri. Did you fight? Did you see action? I fought in the camp. Somebody called me a Jew bastard.

Yeah, that's where it happens. Yeah. A recruit. Well, that's where it happens. Yeah. A recruit. Well, that's where our country is. I'm telling you, this is a dream. I think I've had a dream.

This is my, this is the one thing that happens in your life you cannot forget. Yeah. I'm with my friend. Actually, my friend went in the army with me. We're in the barracks

and we decide, oh, we're just fooling around. You're going to go out and pick up cigarette butts is what you're going to do. So I said, let's take a shower real quick. You're going to go out and pick up cigarette butts. That's what you're going to do. So I said, let's take a shower real quick.

So we jumped in the shower, and this guy comes over to the room, and he says, what the fuck are you doing here? We said, it's all right. It's all right. We're ready. Don't worry about it. Now, he's just a recruit like us. He said, you fucking Jew bastards, get out of here.

And I went, excuse me? What was that? He said, you heard me. I said, yes, we did. I told my friend, I said, well, we're going to... All of a sudden, this thing that... I'm telling you, Mark, I'm as un-Jewish as you can be as a Jew. I am. I'm not a believer.

I'm not. Yeah. But something from 2,000 years ago, like a stab came up to my heart. And I'm like, yes, you can't do that. You can't do that. So we fell outside. And I said, we'll meet you outside.

He said, yeah. And we did. And I said, okay, here's what a Jew is. You get me, he gets you. Yeah. We took our shovels and we made them hatchets. Yeah. And I said, that's what a Jew is I said yeah yeah seems unfair doesn't it

no it's not I said he gets you you get me you get him I get you alright is that fair he just backed away you fucking you fucking and then they called me in and said that I was that I had disobeyed an order

I went through the roof Mark I've never done this before in my life said that I was, that I had disobeyed an order. I went through the roof, Mark. I've never done this before in my life. The calling, you know what I mean? I wasn't even talking from my own mouth. Yeah. I was talking from 2,000 years ago. I said, you can't do this.

You're not in the army, not in the American army. He said, what are you talking about? I said, you can't do this. No one can call somebody that name in the American army. Yeah. And the guy said, well, what the hell are you talking about he said who said that i said i did and my friend knows it yeah and they said who do you he said you should shut up and sit down i said sergeant you could throw me any way you want but i'm telling you i'm going to see the commander of the base he said and then they laughed yeah you're not going to see any commanders from any base. I said,

I'll see the colonel. You won't see the colonel. I said, I'll see, who am I going to see? He said, well, the captain's coming in soon.

I said, I'll see him. Yeah. The guy comes in, he's as Irish as you could possibly imagine. Yeah. What are you doing here,

Irish? What do you want from me? I said, the guy called me, he said, he did, did he? He says,

he said, where are you from? I said, I did, did he? He says, where are you from? I said, I'm from New York. He says, ah, my most important guys in Korea were from New York. I said, don't disappoint me. He said, that's wonderful. He said, get that guy in here. He brings him in here. He said, you call this guy a Jew bastard? The guy said, no. He said, get the fuck out. He said,

what do you want me to do about him? I said, I don't want to take one more order from anybody in that barracks. I'm sorry, but I can't. He said, okay, do about him? I said, I don't want to take one more order from anybody in that barracks. I'm sorry, but I can't. He said, okay, you won't. I said, you know what that means? I'm free. My friend and I,

we're the only two Jews in the entire company. That's what I found out about. So on Friday nights, we decided that we, we're not part of the army. We'd walk out of our barracks and the sergeant sitting out there in the porch, Friday nights, we decided that we, you know, we're not part of the army. Yeah, right. We'd walk out of our barracks, and the sergeant's sitting out there on the porch. We'd say, where are you guys going? I said, well, to the PX.

Why? He said, get out of here. Yeah. That was the rest of my time in the army. Huh. Great. Yeah. Because we were good guys.

It's interesting, though, that feeling, right? The 2,000-year-old feeling. Yeah. That you can't identify. I went to 2,000-year-old feeling. Yeah. That you can't identify. I went to Israel. Yeah. Got off the airplane. Yeah.

Got your bags checked. And they go through them with their hands at that time. Yeah. And I went, I don't know what this is. This is a welcome, my God. This is a welcome. And they looked up at me as if I'm a member of their society already. And I have been for many, many, many years.

It's automatic acceptance. Yeah. I don't know why or how the feeling comes about, but it's there. Yeah. This is not fantasy. Yeah.

No, I agree with you. It's real. Yeah. You know, but like the idea that you identify yourself as somebody, you're not religious,

you're not Jewish. Not at all. But, you know, you, you know. If they knew about my beliefs, they would have thrown me out of Israel. What do you mean? Well, I mean, I don't believe in it. You know what I mean? In Israel or God?

God. Oh, no. Israelis don't care. The Bible or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, but that's not required, is it? I believe Christ lived. Yeah.

I don't believe the fantasies about him, but I do believe he lived. Okay. I can feel that whole basis of Christianity more than I can feel anything else because he was real. Yeah. Did you... Went to every movie that you could possibly think of that had Christ in it. Every movie... You're obsessed with Christ?

Every movie that... I was a kid. Yeah. And when I'm a teen. Yeah. You know, what was one? How come you didn't become Christian? No, there was no, there's no way of becoming the religion.

Sure you can. No, no. You go do the thing, they put you in the water. I told you, you gotta be believed. Yeah. So I can't believe something that's not believable. Right. So you can either do Italian be believed. Yeah. So I can't believe something that's not believable. Right. So you can either do Italian or Jewish.

Right. I could do the Italian who believes in Roman Catholicism. Yeah. I could do that. Sure. I know why. Haven't you? Yeah, I know.

I mean, it's easy. Yeah. You don't think it's difficult doing that stuff, do you? No. I went to church at one time just to be there. Yeah? Yeah, we snuck in. When you were a kid?

There was even holy water there. Sure, yeah, right when you walk in. Yeah, we were scared because we actually walked up to the podium or wherever it was and they stuck these things in your mouth. It was like one of those masses that you could go to at the St. Patrick's Cathedral. Anybody can walk in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that something?

It's wild, yeah. Was that something? But wild yeah was that something but you never went to temple nah well I was by mitzvah oh you were so when you were a kid I had to go to Hebrew school

yeah so you brought up with some Jew yeah yeah yeah no I was fascinated you know I was fascinated with the language

yeah in which they don't tell you what it means they only tell you how to say it yeah I know I know isn't that weird

same thing yeah yeah yeah Christians don't you know what you're talking about, even if it's Latin. That's true. No, the Hebrews, they don't tell you what it means. They could. I mean, it's right there next to it, usually. I said, what is Adonai?

He said, no, we don't do that. Come on. It's a god. I know. Yeah. So you were out here, what, dealing with Stuhlberg? Is that what was going on? Yeah, well, the last movie I did was with him, yes.

But that's what you're here for now? No, no, no, I live here. You do? I actually live in the Catskill Mountains in New York. Yeah, right. That's where I do live. Right. That's my residence, but I've been here for so long

because I have a series and then all these other projects in the last year that we simply got a house and stayed. So we projects in the last year that, you know, we simply got a house and stayed. So we're in both places. Oh, yeah? So you got the place in the Catskills and you got... Is it nice up there? Is it all snowed in?

I've been there 50 years, Mark. Is it all snowed in right now? Yeah. Who's there? Someone watching the house? Yeah. Caretaker. What do you mean?

Someone. No, it's too big. Yeah. Yeah. It's real and the the driveway is half a mile this is the one you designed yeah oh that's nice yeah it's a i took down five barns in the area to build a house oh so you bought that big chunk of property yeah 50 years ago no this was 1985, something like that. Yeah. That's when I got the property.

But the house was built by 1987, 8, 9. That's nice. Yeah. That's when it was final. Then there's a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a little cabin. Oh, really?

That you built? Way over my head. Oh, really? Yeah. You just kept building little things? Yeah. Yeah. For building little things? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

For kids or what? I wasn't even married. I didn't even have a kid at the time. Not the moment. Not that moment. The next year I was, but let's put it this way. I wanted everything anyway. I forget.

People are coming. Yeah, yeah. Nobody came. People are coming. Right. Oh, that's interesting. I built a tennis court, an entire house that has a pool in it. Do you swim or play tennis?

Yeah. No, the tennis, that's over. That never even started. I built the tennis court first for the house. But you didn't play? Nobody came up to play with me. But this time I was already like 50-something years old, and I just started playing. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, like 50-something years old, and I, you know, I just started playing.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you're doing good. I know. I was, you know, the only thing is it gets slowed down now. I don't know whether you exercise or not. I do. Yeah. Constantly.

There you go. Constantly. There you go. I'm talking to someone. I have to. Yeah. It's not about wanting to. Yeah, right.

But then the pandemic hit, and I couldn't go to the gym anymore. So what'd you do? I had someone come over here. I work out on my porch. What do they do for you? Well, they brought weights. I got a bench. I got stuff.

They trained me. So even though the gym... And I was going, there was a private gym around the corner and my trainer was like, I said, wear a mask, let's do it. I couldn't give it up because it was just too much to not do. I went through some tragedy during the pandemic and I didn't want to lose my mind. You must move all the time. Yeah.

I'm here to tell you this. Okay. I'm 87, and I had spinal stenosis. I had a massive operation on my back, and it's still there. I mean, but luckily, I'm not going to die from it. Right. Let's put it this way. it's still there. I mean, but luckily, I'm not going to die from it. Right. Let's put it this way.

It's still there. Yeah. I mean, I still have more back pain than anybody. But if I didn't exercise, if I didn't keep moving in my life, Yeah.

the whole life, Yeah. you know, when I was 40, I was 20. When I was 50, I was 40. Yeah.

You know, and now, it's so hard for me to be able to do that you know oh things change things make you crazy but it's a race against these changes remember right your body doesn't tell you hey you better you better run now it doesn't do that yeah you have to we have to look at the signs yeah let me see wait a minute why am I tired oh geez I better get up and run. Yeah. But you move. Yeah. I played basketball

for 10 years when I was younger and then after that, I even built a little basketball court in my house. With the tennis court. With the tennis court. You should put a baseball diamond in. Mark, nobody came off to play with me. I'm sorry. You need more friends, Jed.

What are you going to do? No, if I have younger friends now, I don't know what I would do. I'd sorry. You need more friends, Judd. Yeah. What are you going to do? No, if I have younger friends now, I don't know what I would do. I'd sit and watch them. But do you talk to any of the people from Taxi anymore? All the time. Oh, good. Every month.

Yeah? We're having another one coming up. We do Zoom. Oh, really? All of us survivors. I shouldn't say that because there's more of us than the others. No, we only had two deaths. We had Jeff Conaway and Andy. Yeah.

But everyone else hangs out. Danny? Yeah. Yeah. We're all here. No, actually, Tony's in New York. Yeah. Carol Kane's in New York.

Yeah. So we now Zoom every month. Mary Lou? Mary Lou makes the Zoom. Oh, yeah. She's the one that remembers everything. Yeah, yeah. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. She says, you know, anytime we have a Zoom. Oh, yeah. She's the one that remembers everything. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. She says, you know, anytime we have a Zoom, this is February 13th. Oh, that's the first day we did our third show. Oh, that's her thing. Yeah. All of a sudden. Yeah, yeah.

She knows all the dates. Times of day. She's the savant of dates. Incredible person. But she'll set it up. Oh, that's nice. And even one of the writers, one of the great writers that we have, Jim Brooks. Oh, yeah.

He'll be on. Yeah? He'll be on. He just did a movie. Now, I don't know. It's probably coming out soon. I said, where are you? He said, I don't know why. I said, why? He said, I went away from the movie. You know, the cutting. Well, that's nice that you guys all talk. I like hearing that. Yeah.

I'll tell you, it's not just fun. It's as if it never, ever went away. Yeah. They could have written a final chapter. They could have written the rest of the series

any time. Yeah. And we would be exactly the same. Interesting. No difference. No difference. But I'm looking.

I'm looking. I'm saying, so what would he play? He'd play the same guy. What would I play? I'd play the same guy. Interesting. No difference. No difference. But I'm looking. I'm looking. I'm saying, so what would he play? He'd play the same guy. What would I play? I'd play the same guy. Yeah. Well, Danny does that Philadelphia show. He's been-

He has gone for so many years. So many years. I can't believe it. I know. How many- But it's weird. Taxi was only on what? Four seasons?

Five. Five. Wild, huh? It was canceled after four. Yeah, but it had such an impact. But I'm just happy that you- I always like when, I always assume that, I've learned over the

years that rarely do people stay in touch with people they work with, especially in show business. True. So when I, like this is a rare thing that you're telling me this story that you guys check in once a month. Yeah. We are all very, I would say disappointed. This is like the ancient

disappointment of never having closed that show. We never had a final show. It was just the wrong time. Because when we were running, the guys who did Taxi did Cheers. It was the same producers. They went over and did Cheers, even the director. And Cheers, which ran, I believe, 10 or 11 years, right? Yeah.

Was a failure. In its first year, it was the bottom of the barrel. 79th out of 79 television shows. In the second year, not much different. In the third year, it took off like maniacally. I'm not kidding. It was, and we followed them finally on television. And I said, well, that's a terrible lead in.

This impossibly famous television show became the most watched television show. Oh, at least one of them anyway. Yeah, yeah. Right? MASH. Yeah. But I just couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe how bad.

NBC was in trouble. NBC was at the bottom of the barrel when Cheers first came on. Yeah. That was it. Yeah. And they even admitted it. Yeah, yeah. They said, we're zero.

Right. Welcome to zero. And that was your lead in when it was zero? At one time. Yeah. Do you know Alan Alda? I met him. I did a movie with him.

Yes. Which movie? It was called Tower Heist. Nice guy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. movie with him yes which movie it was called tower heist nice guy oh yeah yeah he's like but he's like you too were like you know you primarily known for these like massive roles in tv shows we were always against each other for the emmy oh yeah for about six years in a row five years in a row he was always the other guy i was nominated five times in a row for Taxi. Yeah. Every single year. Yeah.

And he was nominated pretty much almost the same amount for MASH. Yeah. He won the first couple. Then I won. Oh, you got one. Yeah. Yeah. But you were nominated for an Oscar.

I was doing a play here in Los Angeles. When the Emmys were on, they were broadcast At the same time In New York In other words There was no There was no time delay Right They did them at the same time

So everybody Alright I remember that Right So I'm gonna play Six o'clock here That's right I'm gonna play Yeah

And at the At the Mark Taper Yeah yeah Right here Yeah yeah My friend is in New York Yeah And I'm in my dressing room And the play's gotta go on At eight o'clock At eight o'clock It's eleven in New York. Yeah. And I'm in my dressing room

and the play's got to go on at eight o'clock. At eight o'clock, it's 11. In New York. And it's the best actor. It's the same moment. Yeah.

So I'm on the phone. I said, they're knocking at my door. They said, the places, they said, what, what, what? He said,

okay, here's the category. It's you and, okay, Alda. I said, okay, so come on, Mr. Hirsch, Mr. Hirsch, places, places. He goes, Alda. I said, okay, so come on,

Mr. Hirsch, Mr. Hirsch, places, places. He goes, Alda, thank you. Glad I'm not there. Well, look, man, it was good talking to you.

It was good talking to you. What are you looking at? Your watch? What are you pointing at down there? Keys. Oh, your keys? I don't know why.

I'm glad you're still doing well. Yeah, it's an interesting... Pandemic has changed everything. Mark, there's no... Nothing... I don't know what the hell life's going to be like. I mean, it has to make a difference. Just like global warming.

Everything is set not to change too much. And we're racing towards something that nobody knows about. So this is comforting to you? No, it's the fact. Okay. I told you I'm interested in the truth. Okay, good ending. Good ending, Judd.

Take care of yourself. Okay, thank you. Judd Hirsch. Judd Hirsch, my dad. My second dad. Again, he's got a movie coming out called I, Mordecai, and he's also in the Apple TV Plus series Extrapolations. Now enjoy some guitar. Thank you. guitar solo Boomer lives.

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