WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1316 - Sam Jay

Episode Date: March 24, 2022

Sam Jay has a lot of irons in the fire. She's on the comedy series Bust Down, she has her own HBO late night show Pause, and she never stops doing standup. Sam tells Marc that standup is the one thing that's guided her through it all, whether it was getting through tough personal times when she was younger or when she was hired as a writer on SNL with no formal writing experience. It's always been standup that served as her North Star, which she now uses as a way to communicate across generational and racial divides. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. Thanks for coming. I don't know if you're new here or what. Doesn't matter. Everyone is welcome. You know, in that pre-show plug there for my gala or gala, gala in Montreal, I got to be honest with you. I spent years and years wondering if I would ever host a gala in Montreal I got to be honest with you I spent years and years wondering if I would ever

host a gala in Montreal I have been on so many galas in Montreal between Montreal and some of the other franchise outposts of that festival I've been on so much Canadian television doing comedy at least five four or five galas as just a comic and i gotta be honest with you i've never seen a clip from one i've never heard anyone react to one no one ever has ever tweeted about them i don't even know if they exist is do you tape canadian television then it just gets lost into the black hole of canadian late night tv i don't know if they're even shown so my expectations about feedback or about it getting out in the world are low.

But I got to be honest with you. I was always jealous, man. I was always like, why can't I do one? Why can't I do one? Because I don't think I could have sold tickets. I don't even know if I'll sell tickets now. These usually these halls are huge, but I'm going to be doing it.

I'll be hosting it and bringing up comedians. Finally, my time has come. They booked this two years ago, three years ago, whenever, and then COVID happened, but they kept the date. They kept their promise. So I'm going to be doing a gala at the Montreal Comedy Festival. And I don't know, it's not a bucket list thing, but I certainly thought I deserved it when I didn't. So in that way, you know, I no longer gave a shit after a certain point, but when it came around, I'm like, yeah, great. I'm ready for that job. Nothing like deserving it when you didn't. Thinking like you deserved it when you

don't. How do you not think that? You know what I mean? If you're going to get through life with any sort of confidence, you've got to think that you deserve it even if you don't. And even if people tell you you don't, and even maybe later you think back on it, like, I couldn't have done that job. I didn't deserve that. No fucking way. Did not have the gravitas to do that thing I thought I should have been able to do when I wanted to do it. But I guess that kind of entitlement, that kind of, I don't know if it's arrogance, but that sort of stubborn insistence that you be reckoned with professionally because you want to and you're ready is some part of confidence. Obviously, it's also a part of insecurity and obviously a part of not knowing yourself very well. But I think all of those self-centeredness, all that stuff, I guess, is necessary on some level and persistence to succeed.

I tried that prematurely bitter. I tried that angle for a while. It didn't quite stick. Listen, folks, listen to me. Today on the show, I have comedian Sam Jay. All right? Now, Sam Jay was a longtime writer for Saturday Night Live. She's on the new Peacock series, Bust Down.

And she has her own late night show, Pause, with Sam Jay on HBO. I would see her at the comedy store when she was in town. And I swear to God, the woman did not talk to me. I didn't know if she didn't like me. We'd be in the green room together. Just the two of us could not just did not engage. Hi, how are you? Hi. But that was it. No conversation. And when she showed up here, I thought, well, this is going to be awkward because there's no way this person likes me. And she was a completely different person we discussed it that aside i would like to say that um this may be a fairly awkward uh white guy feeling interview for some of you i don't know why i'm telling you that but it was just it was one of those things where i'm like i watched her show

pause with sam jay and it's really just the it opens, I've watched three or four of them, and they just open in an apartment where it's almost like this cocktail party, salon type of thing, with a bunch of primarily black people talking about black stuff. And it was one of those moments where I'm like holy shit I am really an old white guy because I I didn't know any of this stuff I didn't know this conversation and because a lot of it's young people conversation but a lot of it is issues that African Americans face and I just didn't I didn't know it because I'm not in the loop. I don't know if I could be in the loop unless I was young and black. But there was sort of an excitement that I had watching the show that I definitely brought into the interview, but I was not nervous,

but I was trying to be forthright about my ignorance. And I didn't want to talk too much because God knows, you know, white guys have talked enough. I was excited and white. All right. That excited, nervous and white and maybe overcompensating. That's how I feel about it. But maybe we'll see.

We'll see how you feel about it but uh I definitely enjoyed talking to Sam Jay holy fuck I was in a hotel room in Laconia New Hampshire and I decided to check in with the world via my uh tv in my room and I was flipping around and I was on HBO 2 maybe one of the HBOs and I was just in the, I clicked into the middle of a episode of Euphoria. And I didn't know what the fuck I was watching. I kind of heard about it, but I didn't know. I didn't read any press on it. I don't know.

I'm getting further out of the loop. But Jesus, man. I watched four episodes of Euphoria in a row from the second season, having seen none of them. And I was like, have I never watched television before or no or better yet? Is this what television is now? When did this happen? When did this become television? What the fuck am I watching?

Holy shit. Did I feel like an old guy? Yeah. But within minutes, I felt like a dirty old guy i was like am i supposed to even be watching this is this what the kids are doing where the fuck what is happening it was like that man is it like that it was like that did i stop watching no i was like completely engaged i i just could not believe what i was watching. Drugs and sex. It was sweaty. That whole show is sweaty. But I really thought I had missed a decade or two.

And then I realized, like, this is the kind of show that this is why they hate us. If there's a reason why Hollywood is threatening, it's that show. They're like like look at what they're doing oh my god i'll tell you uh i went back i just started watching it from the beginning because i figure i got i can only handle one episode a day it's so shattering and raw and fucking weird and like is that what high school is like now and also like if there's a balance being sought for for you know decades i guess since probably the 60s or 70s of of boobs of tna tits and ass and merkin vaginas on screen well this show is balancing out the cock factor. There's just a, like, avalanche of dick in Euphoria.

So I think there's an effort being made on behalf of Hollywood to balance the dick quota with about three or four decades of boobs and vaginas and asses. So now just full-on dick. Full frontal dick. A lot of it. Apparently some of it is fake, but I mean, who cares? Doesn't really matter, does it? Dick's a dick, right? A lot of dick. Anyway, my mind was kind of blown by youth culture and by black youth culture in the last month. Before talking to Sam Jay from watching Paws, I learned some things and I felt like an old white guy. And from watching Euphoria,

I learned some things and felt like just an old guy. A slightly dirty old guy. Is that what the show's trying to do? To make us all feel a little dirty of a certain age? What are people doing with that show? How are people handling it? I got to go do some research. Anyway, look, I'm no prude, but wow, what is happening? What's going on in this world?

So the first season of Bust Down, this is Sam's new show. Again, this is a show that seems funny. I'm not sure I understand it. And it's not a black thing. It's just an old guy thing, I think. Well, look, it takes me a minute sometimes with comedy, certainly with sketch or with absurd comedy to figure out what the fuck is going on. But I get it. I usually get around to it. It hits me all at once. But the first season of Bust Down is now streaming on Peock season two of pause with sam jay is coming to hbo in may you can stream all of season one on hbo max that's where euphoria is too i'm just saying be careful though it's you know it's going to turn your brain out man anyway i don't want to distract from this intro but i will say this

euphoria will turn your brain out i mean i don't think I'm ever going to be the same again. So this is me talking to Sam. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs, So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes.

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Really? Everything matches. I just, you know, tried to just throw something more real quick. Oh, really? Something I didn't have to think about. Yeah. So how long are you in town for? I'm here till Wednesday.

And you're just doing press for the new thing? Yeah, well, we're having a premiere party tonight for Bust Down. Yeah.

So that's why I came in town and then I've been wanting to do this so we made sure this could happen while I was here. Oh, I'm glad it happened.

I started to think like, does she even like me? Like, I see it at the comedy store. I couldn't get a read on anything. I'm like, I don't even know if she wants to talk to me at all. Yeah, everyone kind of picks up that vibe from me. Really?

I'm hard to read, I guess. Really? I didn't, you know, it's one of those things where you hear it enough that you're like, it must be true, but you don't think that's what you're giving off. Well, I mean, that must be just the zone you're in when you're out there doing that. Because I watched several episodes of Paws, and I'm like, I never met that lady. How come I never talked to that lady? Everybody says that.

You're not the first person to say that. Really? Yeah. What do you think it is? I don't know. I mean. Because I only see you right before you're going on stage. Yeah, I think it's that.

And then it's like with Paws, I'm really with my friends. Are they all your real friends? They're all like my real friends. At least this last season. I think it's going to be a little bit more mixed up this season. Really? But last season, they were all comics I was really cool with and people like I actually knew. It's so funny because I had some observations about, you know, because obviously after watching it and after my own sort of insecurity, I assume that, you know, I'm just not relevant to that conversation.

And I probably I'm probably not. You know, I'm just another sort of, you know, cis middle aged white guy trying to be relatively decent in the modern culture. So there's part of me that's always like, well, there's no reason for any of them to talk to me. And not by them, I mean you or black people, but just young people. I get what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yeah, for real. It's a whole generation of people.

I don't know what the hell's going on with you guys. Yeah, I mean, I feel you because I look at my little cousins and I feel the same way. I'm like, I don't know't know yeah what do you mean little like you know early 20s you know really to mid-20s i'm like there's already a big i don't know you know what i mean no idea i like i can are you concerned not really i feel like every generation figures it out for themselves i guess but like now it just there just seems to be so much... It's almost become tribalized. Generationally,

we all kind of figure it out, but culturally, it seems like things are in some sort of fucked up shift. There's a fight on. There is. There's a little bit of a digging of the hills and the sand happening. But when I see you and your friends, it's just so funny how there is a New York thing

with certain people. Yeah. Yeah. It's an East Coast thing. I think in Boston, we got a little bit of that as well amongst the people of color. And then the whites in Boston, that's a whole nother bag of worms. I don't. Amongst the black people.

Wait, you came up in Boston? I'm from Boston. You're from Boston? Yeah. Wow. Where'd you grow up? Dorchester. Wait, you came up in Boston? I'm from Boston. You're from Boston? Yeah. Wow. Where'd you grow up? Dorchester. Whoa, really?

Yeah. Man, I spent a lot of time there. Yeah, I know. I came up there. I was having flashbacks just when I went on that road gig, driving to New Hampshire. I'm like, fuck. You like that feeling of driving to a gig where you're like, I don't even know what this is.

What am I walking into? I don't know if you did that kind of stuff. No, for sure. I remember my even know what this is. What am I walking into? I don't know if you did that kind of stuff. No, for sure. I remember my first gigs in New Hampshire. Right. I was really desperate to do comedy.

Who was booking it? This dude named Nick LaValle was booking everything. He had the Chaskine and he had another room. Yeah. I was desperate to just do stand-up.

Boston's very white, so there also wasn't a lot of black people doing stand-up. It's a unique white up there. Yeah. So I ended up cool with a lot of like white boys but not really cool we were just like cool by necessity of us all trying to do it there yeah and i'm in my first trip to new hampshire i'm riding in a car with this white boy i barely know and it's just getting darker and woodsier and i'm like what the fuck am i doing like this is. I used to feel that by myself.

It had nothing to do with color. It was just me panicking. Like, is this even a real place, this gig? And then you don't know what you're going to get. You're going to get a room for like New Hampshire people. Nothing. You don't know nothing. And then I'm going to get up there and do my thing. Right.

It's like, how is that all going to go? Yeah. Well, that's how I learned. That's how. But I did feel that panic when I was driving from Troy New York to uh to Laconia New Hampshire I even I went into a spiral where I text my agent I'm like how the fuck did you find this gig what the fuck am I doing I'm not I'm beyond this but then I got there and they were it was a nice little theater they were there to see me that's the difference and they were it

wasn't just some random comedy night at some dump so you were born in boston i was born in georgia but i moved to boston before i was even a year old i don't remember even living in georgia so your family moved there my mom sent me up it was a little bit of a crazy story my dad passed away like maybe a month or two months after i was born my dad had a heart attack and then my mom ended up getting into this custody battle with his mom because she was trying to get custody of me to like your grandmother. Yeah. But I never met this woman my whole life.

But she was trying to get custody of me to like get the money. My dad had left me. So it wasn't it wasn't because she cared. No. And her and my dad never had like a real relationship. So my mom, out of fear of like the way George is kind of backwards. Yeah. She sent me to Boston while she fought the case.

And I lived with my grandmother and my aunt while i was her parents yeah while i was a baby and then once the stuff was all over her my brothers came up to boston how many brothers two oh and it was in dorchester yeah at that time so that like what part of dorchester like towards uh columbia point not like tours is that mad at pan like tours mad at pan blue alive franklin park yeah yeah yeah Towards Columbia Point? No, like towards Mattapan. Is that still there? Mattapan, right. Like towards Mattapan, Blue Halive, Franklin Park. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to school in Milton for a year,

so it was right on Mattapan. But I've never been to, honestly, a more segregated city in my life. Yeah. Have you? No. It's weird, and I was just home because we're shooting an episode of Pause

in Boston this season. And it was a little embarrassing. I'm not going to lie because I'm so used to it. But watching other people navigate it and be like, how do you? Then it was like, damn, yeah, this is kind of fucked up. But I'm so used to it. It's like you don't clock it till you're with a bunch of people who aren't. And what was their reaction to what? Right, right. to steal them just crazy stuff that's not like real and then they just noticed how separated it

was and just how the white people in Boston are and it's like this is all stuff I can shrug off and just move through because I grew up like that but to watch other people navigate it was a little bit like damn this sucks yeah I well I mean when I was there it was I mean I got used to it because I had to sort of roll with it because all the comics were kind of like Irish white dudes. And you got to, but I had this real paranoia of Irish dudes for a long time. Oh, really? Yeah, because like I was just this aggravated, neurotic, angry Jewish guy running to these one-nighters. And I definitely wasn't the same as them.

And you feel that difference even if it's that. And I just, I was always a little nervous, but I grew to like a lot of the comics and learn a lot from them. But I did realize as time went on that this, like that city really hides its black people. Yeah, yeah. That's what I've always said about Boston. We live in a certain corner of the city. And if you don't know where we are, you'll never find us.

It's crazy. It's really wild. Like I used to work in, you know, black people usually work downtown. And then we go to our homes, you know, Dorchester, Mattbury or whatever yeah and i remember one time i was working i worked at the aquarium at the time and this black family they were from detroit they walked up to me and they were like yo could we ask you a question i was like you want to know where the black people are huh and they were like yes and i was like all right this is what you gotta do you gotta go here here here's the map here's how you find us they were like because this is

crazy i was like yeah you know but i don't even it's another one of those moments where it's like i don't think about it because i'm so used to it but to people coming in it probably looks nuts but i guess oddly you know that's the way it was you know always and it was it wasn't different until years but but b Boston never really changed. I never, like even New York, I mean, you have black neighborhoods, but that city feels integrated. Yeah, no, Boston doesn't feel like that. No, man. I always say it's Atlanta for white people.

I've heard other people say it too, but. Atlanta for white people? Yeah, I've been saying it for a long time. It's Atlanta for white people. Well, there's this idea that it's some sort of progressive place, but that's only relative to the transient population of like 300,000 students and colleges each year. I mean, in and of itself, it's pretty provincial and pretty New England. Yeah. I mean, I believe that New England is like the last white haven. You know what I mean? It's just like, if you just want to be white and just only see, that's where you go. You know what I

mean? I used to do this joke a long time ago. Or go to Ireland. A long time ago, I used to do this joke in new hampshire like you know it's white when the white people are pumping the gas you know what i mean yeah they don't even got black people working in the kitchen it's like this is white through and through well it's beat up man i mean you drive through that state and it was like wow i mean a lot of you know dead barns it's not a lot going on yeah no and you just feel the the weight of it the weight of of the depression of it. That was one of the first times I got a homie from New Hampshire. His name's Justin Peejer. And that's what I always talk about.

White people be poor, bro. I feel like just as much as Boston hides its black people, I feel like white people in general hide their poor. Well, that's why no one talks about class in this country. Yeah. It's because poor white people think they're just about to be rich. Yeah. And I'm like,

white people be poor. Cause I remember going to Hancher, bro. They was heating a house off of like a wood stove. It was crazy. Yeah. I was like, yo,

this is wild up here. So when did you start doing comedy? Did you go to school in Boston? What was the whole trip over there? Man, I graduated high school, of course. And then I went,

I stayed there. In Mattapan? No, Roxbury. Roxbury. Domitian High School in Roxbury. And I stayed in Boston for like two years. And then I went away to Georgia to go to school. I tried comedy in those two years. I tried it like twice.

In Atlanta? In Boston. Before I left, I tried it like two times. I went to that Dick Doherty's room. Dick Doherty. You're funny. You're insecure. That's what he said to me.

You're insecure. It was, eh. And then I went to Atlanta and my mom had passed when I was in high school, 16 and stuff. So then I went to Atlanta. I kind of spiraled out. I was like drinking too much and partying too much and not really going to school. And I wasn't really doing much of anything, working a bunch of odd jobs. But what was it like?

Were you out and having fun? I came out in Atlanta about 24. Oh. Yeah. And then I was out having fun. Well, yeah, because Atlanta is like a pretty good gay town. Black and gay, which is nice. Because when I used to stay there, there's that huge gay club right there in downtown

that seemed like it was all black and all fun. Like big lines outside of it. All black and all fun, yeah. I mean, I just see the lines going in. Downtown, was it Bulldogs? Maybe. It was right around the corner. Laughing Skull?

It was kind of by Laughing Skull. Bulldogs, yeah. Yeah, it's on that street. One of the peach trees. Yeah, Bulldogs probably. Yeah, yeah. But every time I looked, I was sort of like, wow, that yeah yeah it's on that street one of the peach trees yeah bulldogs yeah yeah but every time i looked i was sort of like wow that's where it's happening yeah yeah i had a lot of fun in atlanta so all right so you tried it in boston at the vault was it a dick doherty's comedy vault yep yep and then you went down to atlanta and you got all

fucked up got all fucked up what kind of jobs were you doing? Every dumb thing. I worked at a Starbucks, bro. I worked for the state doing taxes. At one point, I was working for the census. It was just like whatever I could do, just flipping jobs, hated everything I was doing. Were you getting, because your mom passed

and you didn't know what you were doing, so you're just rudderless and doing, how fucked up did you get? Was it trouble fucked up? It was bad. I think outside looking in, it was just like, oh, we don't know what's going to happen with this girl. She's not really making anything of her life. But for me, it was dark because I knew how I was feeling, and I was feeling real lost.

You know what I mean? I knew internally what was happening with me. So it was real dark for me on my side of it. So you didn't know if you were going You know what I mean? I knew internally what was happening with me. So it was real dark for me on my side of it. So you didn't know if you're going to get out or not? I didn't see a way out. It was like, ah, yeah. I couldn't, you know what I mean?

I just, I couldn't see a way through it at all. A mixture of depression and just using shit. Depression and, you know, drinking too much and feeling like i'm not living with any purpose and and knowing that there is some purpose out there but it's like i can't touch it or see it right it just it just seems like i'll never get to it so then it's like that hopelessness yeah on top of that it's just like i guess it's gonna be my life just like doing things i hate for damn near no money to barely survive to go back and do something i hated like yeah really not seeing a way out of that and kind of giving up like well if this is it then i might as well just get drunk and like find the fun where i can because like this fucking sucks you know it's the worst because

it's like it's just this when i started the podcast i was pretty down and i didn't know what i was gonna do or how it was gonna unfold unfold. And I thought, like, I couldn't sell tickets. I was in my 40s. And I was like, fuck, I'm going to be one of those guys. Yeah. Doing those gigs. Yep. And it's horrible. Because, like, either you surrender to the disappointment and to the managing that.

Or you're like, I'm fucking out. Yeah. I'm going to kill myself. And it's scary, bro. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. People don't get it. It's like.

What's the point of living? It's a low. it's a suicidal low and it's like you know i wasn't you know i never attempted suicide but i definitely was feeling like yeah if i die i don't even care bro like i just i used to it felt pointless right i used to do a joke about that it's like i think about suicide all the time it's not because i want to kill myself i just find it relieving to know that I can if I have to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it comes down to it, I'm going to do it. When you're finding peace in that, you know. Yeah, you're in a bad spot.

Yeah, that's right. So what shifted? What changed? Was there a white light moment? Was there like, oh, my God. I think it was like several fucking moments. You know what I'm saying? It was just like seeing how my life was just going, you know, and not, and just being like, I can't give up. I always, you know, God bless my mother. I think a lot of her lessons and things that she gave me when it was at a darkest hour, I was able to pull on them. Like what? To find myself. Just to like, honestly, just to believe in myself.

And my mother used to always tell me like, there's no shortcuts to life, you know? Like, like you, you can't skip a step. Honestly, just to believe in myself. My mother used to always tell me there's no shortcuts to life. You can't skip a step. Whatever it is, you're going to pull it from yourself. So if you don't achieve something, it's because of you. She never let me lean on race or anything. And I'm not knocking anyone. I'm just saying that's not how I was raised.

It was just kind of like, yeah, it's going to be harder for you and things will get in your way. But at the end of the day, you determine your life life and if you don't pull yourself up and do the shit then it ain't gonna get done right and you can only look at yourself to blame you know what I'm saying so I was like just digging into those lessons and kind of seeing some shit come full circle I ended up sleeping on the couch of a homie and they had a roommate that I never saw but then the day I finally saw him it was a dude who used to sleep on my couch and so it's like all right we're having some some full circle moments that are really kind of fucked up right now the sad full circle yeah like this isn't good you know what i mean yeah yeah and just kind of these things that kind of pushed me in a dude

put a gun to my head and that sounds uh and that was transitional moment and i was just kind of like if that and i really thought i was gonna die transitional moment and i was just kind of like if that and i really thought i was gonna die you know and i remember just feeling like bro this can't be this can't be the samaria johnson story oh just a kid sticking up my brother and i used to always play cards in his garage and i think he thought it was a gambling house yeah and he just came in to like rob it yeah grab me and put a gun in my head. And he eventually just got scared and ran off. But I just remember being like that. This can't be the tale.

No. This can't be how it all goes down. Yeah. So it was like little things, little things, little things that kind of just like got me up off my ass. And you decided to go back to Boston? Go back to Boston. You weren't doing any comedy down there? No.

In Atlanta? No, no, no, no, no. I tried it the year, like that, I have to do put a good on like that January, right around like that new year. I was like, I'm gonna try this. And I was turning 28 and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna try it. I

tried it in Atlanta and I was like, okay. Punchline or Laughing Skull? Starbra. I don't know. That was like right across the street from Laughing Skull. It was this little open mic they do on like Mondays or something. And I was like, okay. I think this is that. That was like right across the street from Lavender Skull. It was this little open mic they do on Mondays or something. And I was like, okay, I think this is it. But I was like, I can't do it in Atlanta because I did a lot of shit in Atlanta and I was doing music shit. And I just felt like people weren't going to let me redefine myself and be something else.

And I just, I wanted the space to figure out. The people you were hanging around with. Yeah. And I wanted space to just really figure out who I was in this thing. Yeah, sure. And plus I just needed to go home and tap in with my family. After my mother died, it was estranged and crazy. And I think that was a part of it.

Just people die. And I think families, sometimes they come together and sometimes they go to their mutual corners. And my mom was kind of integral to my family. The center of the wheel. Yeah. And it kind of just split us up in a way and we were very close-knit family so it was super hard on me yeah and so i just felt like also i feel like i could navigate boston comedy like i really thought about it once i really decided i

want to do it i was really like thinking about how i was going to execute it yeah and i was like well i know home i know i can get on trains and buses for fairly cheap to get to play like in atlanta i gotta drive everywhere. I can't even afford a car. So it's like if I really want to do this, I need to be in a city that I can get to these things. I know I can get a job. Like Boston's pretty, you can get your shit together there. Right.

Kind of easily. Yeah, yeah. So I knew I could get on my feet and get a job and be able to get to shows and do all that kind of stuff. And also I had my family there. So it's like there's only so far I'm going to fall. and i can really kind of throw myself into this thing and really try it they're not gonna let you get lost again yeah yeah so were they were they relieved when you came back you know i think so i think so where they were like oh we didn't know if you were gonna i think so i think they were glad i was back but then you know at first they just trying to force their agenda you know

my aunt's trying to get me to drive the bus mom's been driving the t for like 30 years now so they get worried right they're like you got to get a pension yeah get you a hospital job or get you a you know those are like the Boston jobs or whatever but I was like I was really determined at that point to really try to do stand-up well that's interesting because now you can be you know your cafeteria lady on the show so you're able to do one ofup. Well, that's interesting because now you can be your cafeteria lady on the show. So you're able to do one of those jobs fictional. Yeah, which was like fucking hell.

I'm not going to lie. It brought me back. It was a little like at one point I had to take off that apron and I was like, oh, this sucks. Could have been it.

Yeah. I was like, damn. Yeah. It was crazy. All right. So when you start doing it there, like I don't, in my life,

in my generation, I can't really remember i'm like i'm really trying to remember any black comics from my generation like i'm coming up in in boston in the late 80s and i really i can't i can't i can't remember any isn't that fucked up how many of them were there then that for you and your crew i mean i know patrice is from there but who else is from there? Well, you know, there's like Corey Rodriguez, and there was my homie Tawanda,

there was Nick. Like, we were out there, you know? It definitely was way more white dudes than us, and they definitely were getting, like, the preference for sure. Sure, yeah. But we were there. You know what I mean?

We were there. It's interesting to me that there's always been, even when I started, there was a world of black comedy that we didn't know about. And it was full. Yeah. And there was just two different worlds, man. And then you'd see it on TV and you'd be like, oh, my God, there's all these cats. But now even that's a little, I think, a little more integrated. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A little more. A little more. And I think it's more like people stopped following the rules. Black people stopped being like, oh, I got to go just do the black clubs. Like, no, I'm going to do every club. Did you do black clubs? Yeah, I did. There was one night a week that was Black Night in Boston on Wednesdays at this bar called Slade's in Roxbury that was run by this dude named Jonathan Gates. And he was actually the first person to tell me i was a headliner he was the first person to pay me to do stand up really he was the first person to really give me time time on stage i remember he got a knee surgery and he left me his room i was broke i had just quit my job because i went to go do bridgetown and they wouldn't give me the time off so when i came back i had nothing he let me uh host his room he let me

uh host his room for like four weeks. Take over? Just took his room over. He paid me every week. Oh, that's great. So you can work out all that shit. Yeah. Get up and down.

Yeah. It was really cool. It was really cool. And then I did all the other rooms, the Knicks and the comedy studios and all the other stuff as well. That was okay. The comedy studio. I did the white rooms first.

I went to Slade last. Jenkins room. Rick Jenkins. Wasn't that his the comedy studio in cambridge still is yeah and nicks like nicks was is different now but when i was there that was like you know that was rough man oh no fight it out bro nicks is like it was it when we was doing it man in the winter they would have a space heater on the stage because they wouldn't like heat them in the one downtown yep it got crazy got crazy. It got bad, I guess. It got crazy. That place was crazy.

When I was there at the peak in Boston, Nick's was running two or three shows in the same room, in the same building. Yeah. Because they had that nightclub downstairs and the main show upstairs, and you could go back and forth. And there might have even been a third one. Nah.

And then there was like one, the Kowloon, and then there was, yeah. But that's still, I think that just closed, right? Kowloon? No, we just was there. I just took the crew there to eat when we were up there scouting for Paz. Well, I mean, is there still a comedy show though? I think so.

It's a big room, man. They still had it set up. Did you play that one? Never. That lady didn't like me. Oh, she didn't? Nope. The woman who booked the Knicks?

Did you ever do Mike Clark's room? No. Giggles? You ever do giggles? No. I left before I got, like, he started to know who I was and then I like moved type of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you did do the one nighters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I was definitely there doing, doing comedy. So how long were you doing it there? I was in Boston maybe two, three years. Okay. So you got some time together. Yep. And you got your chops. Yep.

And then you went to New York. I went to LA. Oh, you came here first. Yeah. Did you get beat up or what happened? Did it chew you up, spit you out?

In LA? Yeah. No. That first time? No, you did all right? No, I did all right.

I came to LA and things kind of moved fairly quickly when I got here. So it's not a bad LA story? No, no, no.

It was like a scene of young people and like, it was dope. Like the energy was dope. Well, what was your entree into LA? Did you do Montreal? Were you known?

Were people already, you know? I was doing like, I did Bridgetown. That was my first festival. And at the time, Bridgetown was like a big festival, especially for West Coast. The one in Portland? the one in Portland cuz all the like Reps and stuff from Cali like a leg would just go up there Oh, so that was because all the other festivals got turned out like everybody knew who everybody was and there was no real reason to go To Montreal the other than for agents to get fucked up with producers. Yeah, so Bridgetown was sort of like we don't know any of these people

Yeah, it was like, who's the new people? So that was happening. And there's all those weird bars that you would play in. I remember doing Bridgetown and we were on a patio and it was raining and it was leaking through.

Yeah, yeah. It's a wild time. We were doing like parking lot shows and then like a show in front of a taco truck and then like a show inside and then like, but I was having a blast.

You know what I mean? And that's where I met my manager and there was a lot of like then like yeah but i was having a blast you know what i mean and that's where i met my manager and there was a lot of like comedy central people there who's the manager cara baker at avalon i'm at avalon yeah i know cara i love i love her she's the best um and so we did all that you know what i'm saying and then so i just made and there was a lot of like west coast comics there so i just made a lot of connections yeah that way and so like who'd you meet oh Jack Knight oh you met Jack there I met Jack at Bridgetown yeah yep where'd she come from Seattle oh wow okay yeah I met Jack there I met Nori Davis who lives in New York I met I want to say I met Taylor Thomas in there yeah I met so many people there so that's Tone Bell I met some Clayton English I

met so many people at Bridgetown. Dulce Sloan. And so after that, I just was like, well, it seems like LA is where I can kind of move around. And also, I felt like New York was too close to Boston. And I was going to go home a lot. And just lean on a crutch. And I just wanted to be somewhere where I had to figure it out. But it must have been a relief to see all these different people and to see comedy thriving on all different levels coming from all different

points of view because like the one thing about coming up in Boston or even growing up in Boston is it's a box. Yep. And it's limited. And then to go out there

and just be like, holy shit, you know, this is all happening. Yeah. Yeah. It felt like, like,

oh, here's a chance to really take a huge step that could like change some shit for you. That's good. So you really had it together enough to make those decisions

that's good I was older though you know I always occurred I was just older like at that point I'm 29 you know what I mean

like I got some sense about myself just period you know so you go to LA go to LA I get comics to watch Comedy Central's

comics to watch at New York Comedy Festival maybe like 3 months into being in LA so I go out there to do that I do well at that then I get the call

to do Montreal maybe New Faces? Yup maybe a few months later from that I do New Faces I had a really good

showing at New Faces so I was only in LA two years then some people from SNL saw me there they asked me to audition in LA I auditioned in LA

then they flew me out to New York to audition in front of Lauren. I did. Then they called me and asked me if I wanted to have a writing job. So I was like, oh, they must think I'm ugly and fat. But they think I'm funny enough to do something. So I took the job. But were you a character person?

No, I wasn't. I just did stand-up. And at the end of the day, at some point, we were talking about me moving the cast and then some other things happened or whatever but i always felt like that was their intention and like they were very forward of like we just want you to learn the system and figure it out so okay so tell me how that went the the process of of of snl because i talked to people about that um like you know so who who calls you to offer you the writing job kenward eric kenward okay and when do you meet lauren uh like really actually meet lauren yeah i don't

know did you already have the job or did you have to go meet him no no no no i think i think you go right i went they you still have to like sit with him right you have to sit at the desk and he kind of like talks to you about looks about your future and your life. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You did that. Did that thing. And how was that?

It was cool. Did he make you wait? Of course. Why is that such a thing? Of course. How many hours? How many hours? Ah, man.

I don't want to lie, because I love me some Lauren. Don't get me wrong. Sure. But it was over two. Yeah. It was over two hours for sure. But you knew that going in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was anyone sort of advising you going into that?

Well, at the time I was at ICM and I had an agent named Ayala Cohen. She used to work there. She was super familiar with the process. Right. So she kind of held my hand through it. And I thank God for her, for real. Because there was some times where that show was breaking me. And I'd be like, argh.

Like how though? So okay, so you meet with Lauren. You get the job. You take the gig. Who's the cast? What year is this? Chris Redd's first year. Me and Chris were friends before.

Okay. Oh, you were from comedy? So we went to SNL together. Yeah. Okay. We both were living in LA. We moved to New York at the same time. Yeah called each other like did you get it i got it type yeah okay so chris red this is chris red's first year yep who 80s there of course uh

which call it uh chase there of course he's there of course kate's there of course um there was some luke knoll's first year okay luke knoll's first year so what'd you learn going in what was it what was it what was your approach i just i kind of approached like you approach stand up right just like get in try to get in what you fit in be observant did you let john do like figure out how to write for people? I didn't know how to do anything. I'd never written before. It was my first writer's job.

Yeah. And I'd never written a sketch. How the fuck did you get the job then? I don't know. Wild. I did some stand-up. Yeah. That's interesting, though, that you've never written a...

You don't come from sketch. You come from stand-up. I wonder, do you ever think about what bits, what did they see that made them believe that this person's a sketch writer? She just doesn't know it yet. I don't know, man. That's some of... Some people love to hate him, but I really think that's the brilliance of Lorne Michaels.

He knows who can do it. No one hates him on the mic. He has a good he knows who can do it. No one hates him on the mic. He has a good sense of like, who can do it. Right. You know what I mean? Did you feel like you got the hang of it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I wrote that for three years.

So by like the first year, hell, you know? And it wasn't really till the end of the first season that I was like, oh, I think I get how to do this in some kind of way. You know what I mean? And then by season two, by the middle, and I had kind of really connected with the dude, my writing partner there, Gary Richardson,

and we had really figured out a flow and a style. You guys decided on the partnership? Yeah. You just came together? It just kind of came together. We were the only two black writers at the time, me and Gary. And one day we got our residuals it was like the middle of the first season and we got residual checks and i didn't

even know about these residual checks i didn't know i had no idea and this lady just came and threw a bunch of free money on my desk and i was like oh shit yeah this is fucking crazy and gary came in my office and he was like yo did you it was like our first time jamming he was like do you want to try to jam on his thing i was like yeah and he was like also bro, did you, it was like our first time jamming. He was like, do you want to try to jam on his thing? I was like, yeah. And he was like, also, bro, they just giving niggas money. And I was like, yeah, okay. You a real nigga too, all right. We can probably figure something out.

This crazy, right? And we kind of just connected in that moment of being like two black people, like, this is fucking wild. That it just from there kept flowing. And then once I figured that out and really found my sketch voice and learned how to cast sketches because all that stuff is a part of it like so you actually act as your own segment producer yeah right 100 right che taught me a lot too when i was when i was when i was drowning yeah like what what was the drowning like what brought that on just you didn't just being bad at it man i don't know how to write sketches and then they go to the table and they get read out loud and they ask, you know,

and all you're hearing is the pages turn, you know what I mean? And you're feeling a little embarrassed and, like, people are killing because they know what they're doing. And you're just like, am I ever going to figure out how to fucking do this? Taking the hits. Yeah, Chris is also, like, a peer of mine. We stand up together. Chase is a peer.

So I'm failing in front of my fucking friends. Yeah's just like and and shay what reached out or he stepped out of that he just talked to me one day he was like yo just just pay attention to the table he's like you're not doing bad you know it feels like you're doing terrible but he's like you're not doing bad you know like it ain't it but it ain't bad he's like but you know when you're not you're not getting shit on don't get caught up and not getting shit on yeah just pay he's like but you know when you're not you're not getting shit on don't get caught up in not getting shit on just pay attention to the table

you know what I'm saying and listen and watch and listen to what sketches are working so I started doing that and I started like keeping the sketches

I liked that were working and reading them again and figuring out like moves and like also figuring out who likes what

figuring out how to cast like oh Kate's really strong in these type of characters 80s cause that also could fuck your sketch up I was casting my sketches all wrong I was just throwing names out Also figuring out who likes what. Figuring out how to cast. Like, oh, Kate's really strong in these type of characters. 80s, because I also could fuck your sketch up. I was casting my sketches all wrong. I was just throwing names out. I wasn't thinking about the person and how they were going to do it.

You know what I'm saying? So, yeah. So, you're learning how all levels of the production work. Yeah. You know, casting, understanding people's limitations and where their strengths are. How to tag a sketch. Okay. So, it's all coming together. Okay, so it's all coming together. Yeah, it's just all coming together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what I'm saying? And then also once I separated myself from trying to beat it, I think that's how it gets a lot of people. People going in there like, I'm going to fucking beat this thing. It's like, nah, you're just really a cog in the wheel of a thing that's going to keep going with or without you. And then I started to just try to figure out how to be useful. So if I didn't get a sketch on, I still help other people with their sketches or I'll watch the sketches and be like,

yo, I saw this thing or I knew you wanted it to look like this, but it didn't look like this. It kind of came off like that. Just figured out ways to be useful within the thing. The community. In the community. And then those people would help me

and like, it kind of like. Yeah. It's like when someone comes up to you, it's like, you take tags? I got a tag for you. You want a tag? Yeah. Like, what is it?

Oh, that's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's the same thing as comedy. I just, I had to learn how to play with them, you know, because I'm not an improviser and they have a lot more energy and they're a lot more cheery than like us, you know? But you're engaged. Yeah. But I just didn't know how to, I know how to riff with comics. just didn't know how to i know how to riff with

comics i didn't know how to do the thing with them collaborate with people i didn't know how to do it yeah we're not collaborators so i would like write shit and then like beck would come up to me in the hall and be like sam and he'd just start doing a voice and i'd just be looking at him like nigga what the fuck is you doing yeah like i don't go ahead do whatever like if that's what you want to do do it yeah and i didn't realize what you want to do, do it. Yeah. And I didn't realize he needs me to like,

give him something so he can, I had to learn like, oh, this is how they play and this is how they figure out how to do their thing. give me something to work with.

Yeah. I would just be staring like, I guess, bro, you know? And they're looking for support and leadership. Yeah.

And you're like, I don't know. Right. I'm like, this nigga weird, you know, that's going in my office. Like, that ain't it. But you I'm like, this nigga weird. You know, then I just go to my office. It's like, that ain't it.

But you figured it out. Which were your big sketches? Oh, wow. The John Mulaney cha-cha slide sketch that I wrote with Brian Tucker. Yeah. Tucker's been there forever. Yeah. Right?

The Chadwick Boseman Black Panther, Black Jeopardy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Eddie Murphy, Black Jeopardy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Eddie Murphy, Black Jeopardy. Did you get to meet Eddie and deal with Eddie at all? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was crazy. That was a crazy week.

Did you look up to that guy? Of course. Of course. Who were your comic heroes? In a major way. Yeah, Eddie? In a major way. I don't know.

I was born in 82. I don't know a black kid in the 80s who didn't think that he was fucking god yeah eddie murphy week my aunt called me like are you crying because i know that's just like your god yeah yeah yeah and you got him at a good time he's kind of nice yeah he's chilling it was really cool to have a have a job in common with eddie murphy where he was like sitting in the office being like this how my office was set up and talking about the show and like is it still like this and do this this still happen we're like yeah they still do that but they don't do this and like right right i was like this is like crazy it's wild right yeah he's and you know what's amazing about him i think it probably you probably saw it a lot though because

there's a few people on snl that can do that is how easily he can turn on the funny part. Like, he doesn't exist in it, but, like, if he needs it, he just throws a switch, and it's there. Yeah. Old Eddie. It's right there. That time he hosted, it was crazy. Yeah. That sketch at the end, what was it, a hurricane sketch?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was crazy. With the elf. Yeah. Because he was just like old Eddie. Yeah. I interviewed him, and it was hilarious. I was so happy to make him laugh.

That was the best part. He was going crazy. Yeah, it was Eddie. Yeah. I interviewed him and it was hilarious. I was so happy to make him laugh. That was the best part. He was going crazy. Yeah. It was amazing. Yeah. So you were there for three years and how did you exit? I got another job. I got my own show.

I got my own late night show. The pause? Yeah. And so I left it there. How did that unfold? Did you pitch it? No. I know.

I hate telling these stories because it comes on so like i have this weird luck when it came to comedy like when i just stuff just worked out and it's not luck if you can deliver the goods it's just worked out in a weird way but i did a i did my special three in the morning and for hbo for netflix okay and it was about to come out and people were like talking about it a little bit industry wise. And my manager kind of like leaked it to Princess Penny's people who were, had an overall deal with HBO and he was trying to develop a late night show and he needed like a voice for his late night show.

And she was like, I think Sam could be perfect for this. They showed him specials. His, Princess's agent loves specials. So Princess's special. He was like, I love this. I for this they showed him special his Prentice's agent loves special so Prentice's special he was like I love this I want to meet her

me and Prentice met we talked to each other who's this person Prentice Penny he is the EP of my show he's the EP of Insecure

oh okay and we vibed and we kept talking for like two weeks and he was like yeah no this is the person and he went to HBO and was like

this is the person and HBO was like yo we love Sam like she's dope like she's the shit so this must be the person and then at the same time i got offered cast at snl like while this is going on oh tough so i'm like shit like what the fuck you know what am i gonna do because that's when i was my family you know at the end of the day we we really built something and bonded on something. And I had a great deal of, like, respect for everybody there. And I loved working with everybody. And it also felt like a safe place.

They kind of built me up. You know, I don't think the special would have been what it was without SNL and what I learned there. You know what I'm saying? Of course. And so it felt like I was really torn. And I was trying to find some way to, like, do both some kind of way. But it was just kind of like this is the thing I've always wanted to do is like have my own product and kind of like form something the way I want to form it. So I chose to do the show.

Well, it's interesting because like it must have been one of those things where the unknown is. Yeah. Can I, I'm going to have to do characters. I'm going to have to take a beat and learning how to do that. Yeah. a beat and learning how to do that right you're like yeah and you know as opposed to i can get engaged my brain and my sense of humor every time i step into this yeah but i can see i would be tough yeah and i could make my own thing right you know what i'm saying and also i just didn't want to disappoint lauren you know i know that that's his favorite thing and when he offers it

to you it's a real like gesture for him and i just didn't want to disappoint him. Did you talk to him about it? I did. I did. And? It was okay. Yeah? It was okay. He understood?

He understood. You know what I mean? And he told me I always have a family there. And I always have a place I could come home to. But he's producing Bust Down, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and we're still-

You're back, kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're still together. But Paws, to so it was a weekly yes and you only did like six six and now i'm doing eight okay now what's the production schedule on that thing how long does it take to put that together how do you decide i mean i know you have the kind of like you know drunky salon thing at your apartment is that really your apartment no oh it's okay i would not let camera in my apartment but i but i like that i mean it's a you know it's uh the way it feels obviously is

unique and then in it the kind of engaged people talking over each other argument you know it's kind of fun but how do you but obviously you decide on topics right yeah so how do you produce that what's the idea? I mean, we just get in the room and we just, I throw out things that I'm feeling. It's a very talky room. The room pretty much feels like the party. The writer room. Yeah.

The writer's room feels like the party. Who's in there? How many people? We got, I want to say we got eight this year. And we had, well, we might have 10 this year and we had eight last season. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Mixed? Yep. It's a lot, it's more women this season than men this season. And last season, I feel like it was pretty balanced. Yeah?

Yeah. But, so when you're kicking around topics or whenever you're like, because like, it seemed like the, and then in the writer's room, you kind of,

you hash it out and then you decide, well, this is what we're going to talk about with the friends. And then you kind of, you hash it out, and then you decide, well, this is what we're going to talk about with the friends, and then you're like, so let's figure out what the out-of-studio segments are going to be in relation to that. Yeah, how do we make it active?

That's what we're always saying in the room. All right, this is just ideas now. I thought it was provocative, again, as some middle-aged dude who's just trying to hold on to some relevance and not really knowing a lot. Like, they're just shit I don't know. Like I've worked with for years. I mean, for a couple of years on radio, I had a, you know, a black guy who was my partner on the mics.

But like the idea and obviously the idea of what is cooning or what is, you know, I've heard that or Toming or whatever, but the actual, when you started talking about representing and the challenge for you as a woman, as a gay person, and as a black person, I mean, that's a lot. In that conversation, I was like, well, I never thought about any of this shit. I'm learning things.

That's cool. Well, how do you deal with that on a day-to-day basis? Or do you just surrender? Because at the end of the episode, you're like, I'm not that, and fuck it. Yeah, I think that's how I deal with it. I just be me at the end of the episode you're like i'm not that and fuck it yeah i think that's how i deal with it you know i just be me at the end of the day and it's like i don't know you gotta like take it and leave it type of deal you know because i you don't feel like it's a responsibility if i make it a responsibility then i'm not being myself

you know what i'm saying it's like i that's gonna be your job yeah right yeah and i don't ever want i don't want that you know what i mean i want the ability to like, like even with Paws, we always talked about it. Like I want the ability to be wrong. I want the ability to grow. I don't, I don't want to be an authority. That's why we do it the way we do it. That's why I didn't want a desk. It was like, once you sit behind that desk, you're an authority.

And now you have to know stuff and you have to be right. And it's like, that's just not actually my life experience. And sometimes I'm more connected to my blackness than my gayness. sometimes i'm more connected to my blackness than my gayness sometimes i'm more connected to my gayness than my blackness sometimes i'm more connected to my feminine side and my masculine side sometimes i'm more connected to my masculine like i'm just a multitude of things sometimes you're just comedy and that sometimes i'm a comic first and that's it you know what i mean and a lot of times really i feel like that's my ultimate identity right you know yeah yeah so it's just like yeah you can be a multitude of things and sometimes those things are conflicting and that's okay i identity, you know? So it's just like, yeah, you can be a multitude of things.

And sometimes those things are conflicting and that's okay. I think we're so rigid these days. And it's like, that's not really how shit is. Well, it's overthinking sometimes. And it's also in reaction. We live in reaction to other people dumping shit into our laps. Because you can't stop people from dumping shit into your lap anymore. Like everybody can get to everybody.

And it doesn't take much to make someone go like, fuck, am I that? What did I do? And it's like, they're nobodies. Yeah, you just gotta stop listening to people. Right, but it's hard, right? Yeah. Every day I think like I'm getting off the,

I'm just gonna. And then you're back on the junk, huh? Yeah, of course. That dopamine rush. Yeah, I try not to be on it too, but it's like, it's like, you want to know, because you also make shit for people, so you do want to know what the fuck they think. You know what I mean?

But then you realize a lot of people are just there to fuck things up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're chaotic. It's their hobby. They're the joker. Yeah, they're the joker. They're just running around burning shit down. That's right.

Thousands of them. Yeah. But I thought the conversations were really good because it's not conversations i have or i'm privy to necessarily but just also the in in terms of that that whole representation thing leads into the next episode about you know how do you protect yourself in a world uh that that you could be your your your job could be affected by you know somebody finding something that you said taken out of context or misunderstood uh i guess it's cancel culture but uh but like i thought that was interesting too because you're coming at that as somebody who wants a certain type of success

and you were able to separate the idea of black success versus regular success and what success is how it's dictated by white culture yeah and that there's a certain a different type of pressure and there's a different type of bar to meet yeah a different type of like bartering system you know like it's a whole different you're playing a whole different game and you're trying to satisfy a lot of different things because you still feel you have some responsibility of course to the black community yeah it's the same thing of like you have some responsibility to your the minority group you a part of, but you also like are trying to achieve something. And then also like you're just a fucking person.

Right. You know, I always just think it's weird that people don't like realize we're just like people with jobs. Right. You know, like. I know. We're just people doing stuff. Kind of hard jobs. Yeah.

And we're just doing shit. And I get that you there's an opportunity to make a lot of money doing it but it's still just like a thing i'm doing and i'm not always gonna be correct or think the way you need me to think and like that's why there's a lot of us and you should tap into the thing that's like servicing you at the time and the thing that isn't just don't fuck with it right and i think think the challenge just becomes about like, you know, how do I stay authentic and then not chase this, this, the, the expectation that because there's so like this whole there. When, okay. When you look at Kevin Hart, you know, is there, was there a day that Kevin and I know him and we've talked and I like him, but was there a day where he just sat down like, I'm going to do everything. I'm going to own this thing.

The Kevin Hart brand. We're going to have a breakfast cereal. We're going to have a breakfast cereal. We're going to have a motivational speaker. I'm going to do movies. I'm going to do athletics. I'm going to do stadiums. I mean, that business model is a real thing. Yeah.

And people aspire to it. Yeah. If that's what you want. You know what I mean? But I wouldn't know how to. It would be exhausting. Yeah, no, I wouldn't would i can't think in terms of relation to branding like that's the whole that seems to be the whole thing and how you maintain any sort of sense of self or even authenticity when you know all your energy goes into branding i don't know what that is yeah i'm

old though i don't i mean i don't really know what it is either i think it's just like different like some people come in and that's, everybody wants something different out this shit. And I just always wanted to be able to just create authentically. Like those were the motherfuckers I admired

and that's the shit I wanted to do. Like who? Like man, like Chappelle. Right. Like Rock. Like, you know,

Carlin. Yeah, yeah. Just, I'm a, I love fucking standups bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, through and through. Damon Wayans. You know, Carlin, like, just, I love fucking stand-ups, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, through and through. Damon Wayans.

You know, I just want to, I just wanted to be able to be myself, Patrice. I just wanted to be able to be, like, what I am. Right. And then, like, do shit. Right, because that's what we fought for. That's our choice. It's like, I don't want anybody, I just want to find my space on that stage and own it. Yeah.

And then whatever from there, as long as that's the core of it, I'm good. It's a little cult-y. Like I always say, I'm just looking for my tribe. Right, right. I'm just trying to talk it. I'm talking into the ether

and if it connects with you, come over here and we could chat. Have you found, I'm sorry, because my audience came to me much later, but it's very interesting once you have an audience to see what it's mostly made up of.

And they sort of like, is that who I am inside? I guess so. I guess I'm an angry middle-aged woman inside. I think inside I'm like a half Republican white man. I get a lot of white dudes. Really? It's a weird mix with me. It's like a lot of white dudes and then like a lot of older

black men like like middle-aged older black men few black women in there and then like young people it's such a wild like yeah yeah yeah but you find that the people that are getting you deep like you know because it's interesting when you have older grown-up people who come out who seek you out because that means they're speaking at least a mature language. Right, right. They dig it. But it's hard to understand exactly. Why do you say Republican?

Because I'm a bit rebellious. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I play a lot. My material is very much I push this way and I push that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not always left-leaning or right-leaning. Right, right.

Depending on the topic you don't really know where you're gonna catch my opinion and I think for like white dudes they expect a thing they're like I know what that's gonna be and then I start talking and they're like oh I didn't know that that's what this was gonna challenge them yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah right so I think it's like a little bit like fun for them. They're like, oh, here's a path I didn't think anyone was going to take type of thing. That's good. That's good. Well, I mean, I watched that one segment that you did on pause with the black Republicans,

black conservatives, and that woman came out. Did you not know? Not know at all. Did not know at all. How's she doing? All right. She's good. She's out here living.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's always like posting pictures like out.'m like okay she's outside that's cool that was kind of it was you could feel the weight of that moment because you didn't even take it in for like a second wait what right this is happening i didn't because i was just like holy this is crazy yeah yeah yeah well i mean the the the weird sort of line of of self-actualization it was interesting in that show that there is something about, you know, just black culture. And you just said about it earlier about, you know, taking yourself up by your bootstraps and doing actualizing your life and that that's a conservative idea.

I don't think it's necessarily Republican. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like conservative. And I think that like white Republican dudes, they'll they'll like hear some of that in me and be like, oh's what I'm saying. It's like conservative and I think that white Republican dudes, they'll hear some of that in me and be like, oh, I didn't know you could... They're like, oh, there's one that didn't need the welfare money. Yeah, and it's like,

that's not true. And that's what's fun about those setups is that I also get to correct them. Like, yeah, no, but no. There's still this and there's still that. There is, I i think some power to give to black people that like you have to a little bit see it that way to beat the game right to beat the game you gotta kind of decide deprogram yourself from the the welfare idea

yes not the thing right but the idea of the thing that that's what we are right right and that that's which that's the only way you can you know what i mean it's like nah bro there's there's you're really in control it is really some like i always i'm fucking a nerd but i always say it's like some matrix shit it's just like once you unplug and you're like nah i'm actually fully in control of this thing. Right. Well, I think the real question with that kind of stuff politically

is the idea of, is it a level playing field? Not at all. Right. So that is the argument against... But it never will be. Of course. Right.

So you just got to figure out how you level it. So do you accept that and play the victim or do you try to rise above it? Yeah, and figure out how to level it and then do you accept that and play the victim or do you try to rise above it and actualize it? Yeah, and figure out how to level it and then when you do

rise above it, how do you change it for the motherfuckers behind you so that they don't have to go through as much, you know? Do you think that

that is happening? Yeah, I think especially with like art and I think especially with art. Yeah, there's a lot of equality in fiction right now. yeah but i

think it's such a standard and a thing like yeah i look at pause and people will be like some people like yo why do you say niggas so much why do you talk like that and i'm like yo because that's how people where i'm from fucking talk if i was sitting around talking to my friends that's how we would speak and if i change how i'm speaking because now i'm in this white space necessarily then i'm making it harder for the niggas from where i'm from to come in and be who they are. Right. Now they have to pose a posture. And some of these motherfuckers can't.

Right. Like, truly and honestly, they can't. Yeah. So it's like, if I put on airs for you motherfuckers, I'm not helping them. Right. Right. I'm just keeping the status quo. That's right.

You're saying like, look, I managed to fit into this space. Yeah. And it's like, nah, fuck that. Break the space. Once you get in it, break the space. That's right. You're saying like, look, I managed to fit into this space. Yeah. And it's like, nah, fuck that. Break the space. Once you get in it, break the space. Right. Right. And you can definitely feel that.

I'm trying, bro. I don't know. I don't know how well it's doing. Well, what do you mean? I mean, what's the feedback? I mean, who's saying you use the N-word too much? Black people and white people. I think anytime you're doing something that's, you know, what it is, it's going to.

It's just like, but like, I don't know why I don't process it that way. You know, I don't know. You know, I completely felt right away. I'm like, all right, this is, you know, this is the way that this community is talking. So get on board. That's it. And like, you know, slow it down if you need to and figure out what's happening. How are they engaging?

And again, I'm not saying they as black people, but this community, this is the language. So figure it out. Yeah. And it's provocative. And they as black people, they as young people. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

They as gay people. Gay people. Exactly. You know, exactly. And I'm just a firm believer in like that that there's not a I don't want to play those games anymore I feel like the the black people

before us they did all that dancing for y'all niggas they did all the dancing they could do bro and they still didn't do shit right so I'm not

oh that's interesting we're not doing that they worked the white space yeah and we're still stuck right so like no

yeah right exactly but I it's just it's very exciting in a way, because I like how there's in conversation, the volume level and the level of interruption and engagement is it's also it's exciting. show right you know you guys are riffing but you know once you learn the language of the show it's like it is a completely new approach to that late night idea this is the monologue there's 20 of us yeah and we're talking well i just tried to like for me it's like it gotta feel like how i i'm a fucking stand-up bro i'm used to yelling at people over people at the cellar i'm used to screaming at

keith to make my point yeah and it was, bro, if you take away all that energy, then I'm not even being my authentic self. Yeah, because you're self-checking. Yeah. Right. Yeah, and then it's not real. Right, right. Bro, I was very clear, like, I want to fight for it.

Yeah, yeah. Because that's how I usually have to make a point. I got to fight for it. Right. And I want people to scream over me. I want someone to be more right than me sometimes. And I'm like, all right, you want, like, when Ricky has that moment, it's like, I hope we get more of those this season.

Like, okay, bro. Well, that was funny about you and Ricky. It's like, he was like the only guy you listened to. But he's a guy I'm always yelling at. I know, I know. But it was something because there was one moment where you're just like, he's talking and you're not saying nothing. I'm like, wow, they're friends. Yeah, we're actually friends.

But what's, okay, so we can talk about uh bust down a little bit but before we do that what are some of the topics you you're thinking of kicking around for the the pause you produce that out of new york yes okay yes yes yes pause season two i mean we're just getting more personal you know we felt like that titties out episode was like our yeah like this is the goal right this is when the show feels absolutely correct. When you're not trying to take on, you know,

the, you know, the black responsibility angle. Yeah. And I'm just like existing in the existence, if you will. Right.

And so this, this season, it's like a lot of personal stuff where I'm doing an episode about jail that's kind of surrounding my brother went to jail when I was very young

and he was young. I'm doing this. Is he out? Yeah. I'm doing an episode about jail. That's kind of surrounding my brother went to jail when I was very young and he was young. I'm doing this. Is he out? Yeah. I'm doing this episode around death and how my mother died so young, like my fear of death and how I haven't really overcome it. So you're doing that same give or take crew talking about personal stuff. Different comics this season.

So a bunch of different people outside of Jack and Zach who are like my core boys. Yeah. We're going to bring a bunch of different comics and we're going to break it a little bit again. We're going to have some fun and restructure some things. And sometimes it won't start at the party. You know, we're going to do some cool stuff. Okay.

And with Bust Down, how did that come together? Chris Red brought us a project. He was the only one out of all four of us that was actually making money at the time and had any type of traction out in the industry yeah and he had this opportunity to redevelop something uh that was a show out in i want to say canada it was like about four friends who made a pact to not have sex and then that's how they get through life holding each other accountable to this path right and he was like yo do y'all think we can mess with this and kind of like make it us? And we were like, and he was like, you can get some money. And we was like, cool.

We don't got nothing to do. So we started with that. And of course, it grew completely away from that to what it became. And we just kept jamming on it. It's been five years in the making. Really? Five and a half. It's an odd space that that show happens in, right?

Because there's part of me, and again, I've only watched the pilot, and I'm sure it gets different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there is that sense of like, are we supposed to take this real, or is this just a comedy space? How do you look at it? It's totally just for yucks. You know what I mean?

And I think at first, when people watch the pilot, because it's such a heavy topic, but we thought it was a cool way to introduce who we all are going to be. That was a heavy topic. Male molestation. It's like if you're going to do like the pilot's got to be about being molested when you're a dude and how you handle that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how people react to that. Yeah.

But we thought it was a good way to tell who each character was going to be throughout this series and also a good way to let people know y'all these these are the type of swings we're going to be taking right so if you in for this you're in for the ride if you're not in for this then right out now if you're not gonna laugh at young chris getting his dick sucked then this probably isn't the show for you who's not gonna laugh at young chris getting his dick sucked? The character he plays is very odd. He really commits to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think Chris is such a great silly Billy. You can really throw him in anything, and he's going to silly it up. And you guys are all writing it, you and Jack and Chris. And Langston, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have a writer's room. Emmy Blotnick, Gary Richardson richardson's and that thing you know from snl zach fox yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and so now you're doing the premiere and then you go back and get work to work on pause yep and that's it stand up doing it yes oh man i want to do another special right next year i've

been hammering this shit out for like six months, the new stuff, putting the new hour together. You? I've been working the cellar and just getting like these chunks I like and going like, I like this, you know? I think this could be something. Right.

Like I like this and I think this could be something. I want to do some more theater stuff. I might do a run. I am going to do a run at the Cherry Lane where I can really like sit in some stuff. Yeah, I just like, I am gonna do a run at the cherry lane where i can really like sit that's what i do some stuff yeah just like i'll i'll get like a residency a dynasty dynasty typewriter and just do like four tuesdays yeah yeah and uh you know and just riff it out yeah see what sticks that's what i'm trying to do and just like really sit in some stuff and and really start to well

what's this what's going on with the cherry lane i mean it seems like uh like i remember when i used to do one-man shows, most of the road guys, most of the comics were like, oh yeah, you're giving up, huh? But now it seems to be a thing. So are they offering the space to workshop as well? Or are you planning on doing a more structured thing?

I'm lucky enough to have an agent that really has a good relationship with them. So I'm going to do some workshopping. That's the way to go, man. It's going to be, you know, it's going to have its legs a little bit, but it's going to be more of a workshop. But like, so you're going to like instead of like you're running it as like a theatrical run fully produced, you're going to like do some nights where you're just kind of trying to put shit together. Yeah. Yeah.

Reasonably priced ticket. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not crazy. I'm just putting stuff together. Yeah. But I just want

that uh i want that theater audience because i there's some complicated ideas yeah and i need some space to really like yeah support have the support right like in theater audiences like yeah yeah yeah and you know we had the sellers like you better black black black black black black black no the seller it's like you know people don't realize you know as much as we all talk about it that is not a fucking easy room. Nah. There's nothing easy about it. You can't get away with anything there.

And if you're too sensitive, like if you're trying to show that part of yourself, uh-uh. Wrong place. Yeah, you got to balance it right. It's a dance there. How is it over there? I love it. I've been avoiding it. No, I love it.

I mean, I came up in there. I know all those know all those guys but like i just uh it's weird i went in there no one was there and i and i didn't go on i should just go back i always have this did you do did you have you done the vu the i like that one the best that's my favorite it's just when i go to new york i'm usually doing something else and like i don't feel the the love as much as i used to but i might just be making that up i think might just be making that up. I think you might be making that up. I'm sure, man. I'm like, yeah, I'm just another paranoid comic.

I think if you showed up. It's like with you backstage, like it's sort of like, what the fuck is her problem? So what are these difficult things that you're going to be exploring? I mean, I want to do this shit about like, it's weirdly right now,

I'm calling it like a love letter to America from a person that shouldn't love America. You know what I mean? That's all's weirdly right now i'm calling it like a love letter to america from a person that shouldn't love america you know what i mean right right that's all i have right now and it has some of that manifest destiny stuff in it and it has some of those like relationship that the core relationship that i think in this country which is black and white people and then how that like reflects outward to the rest of like the world and then like how that kind of affects how this country like operates in a way that we don't want to acknowledge and that at the end of like the world and then like how that kind of affects how this country like operates in a way that we don't want to acknowledge and that at the end of the day it is just a relationship yeah it's just a relationship between us a pretty a pretty toxic one right but just a relationship

at the end of the day that we haven't quite figured out how to navigate yeah both of us have some some stake in that right yeah you know what i mean i've been relating it to an abusive relationship and i'm like what's clearly that yeah and i'm like you know like black people we have to accept that where the bitch getting beat so we have some of those tendencies of wanting to be liked and wanting the approval and and we hope white people will come home one day and say i'm sorry honey you know right you're perfect and i should have never hit you and the only reason i do is because i'm broken and let's go fix it. And like a part of us is we may need to accept

that they never are going to do that. But we also have to accept that we actually want that. And we have to be honest about the fact that we fucking want that. And white people got to be honest about the fact that they are fucking abusers and that this has been a bad ride for niggas. You know what I mean?

Like, period. And like, just really exploring this kind of heavier stuff and then kind of how that connects to like people foreign people who come here from other countries and their views and perceptions of this and how america's kind of a gambler's island but in that there's some beauty in it because it does give space kind of for everybody in this weird way yeah well i think you like in pause you kind of for everybody in this weird way. Yeah. Well, I think, like, in Paws, you kind of, I thought, pretty well comedically addressed this idea of, you know, it's a known idea if you're progressive or you're educated that the Constitution was not for black people. Yeah, for sure. But the idea of making a black constitution

was very funny yeah yeah but it's like even in that i think the like i think about the constitution i'm like well what but what makes it so beautiful is because it it is a document that was made by persecuted people uh-huh and so in its language yeah it includes all people but only a persecuted person would even think to create that language that's right to say all people is because they've been ostracized at some point so it's like this happy little mistake yeah and because this is like like the core of this is persecuted people trying to find their freedom right when someone pushes back hard enough and long enough eventually it folds because it's like we got to add some shit We got to add some shit. We got to add some shit. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

It's well-intended, but it's not covering everything. Right. Things are changing. Right. Well, that sounds great. And good luck with it. And I will see you in New York. Yeah, man.

Good talking to you. This was good. Thank you so much. Great. There you go. We learned. I did i did i learned sorry if i was nervous or whatever i was it worked out comic to comic me and sam jay season two of pause with sam jay is coming to hbo in may you can stream all of season one on HBO Max. I recommend it. And now I'm going to play some guitar. Thank you. guitar solo Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda.

Cat angels everywhere. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

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